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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Eric Hatfield on Saturday 12 October 13 04:15 BST (UK)
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Hi, I am new here, having found a link in the Australian Family Tree Connections magazine. I have been researching my late mother's family tree with very little effect, and much frustration. Briefly, the info I have is this.
The first record I have of my grandfather was his marriage to my grandmother in Melbourne in 1913. On that certificate, and on later certificates - a second marriage, a WW1 (failed) enlistment form and his death in 1939 - the same information is given:
Parents: Francis Hargraves (weaver) and Mary McQuillan
Birth: about 1880 (dates from about 1879-1882 are possible because of some 'flexibility' in his age) in Lincoln, UK.
Trouble is, I cannot find any couple of those names, any person of his name and any birth in the UK, and people on a UK forum also checked and found nothing. In fact, the only couple of those names I have found anywhere in the world lived in Victoria, and he was a policeman.
That Francis & Mary Hargrave (no 's', but that isn't significant) came from Ireland, married in Australia, lived in Stawell and Melbourne, had a large family but no Ernest, and I have been able to find most of their birth, death and family information, and there is no trace of any Ernest. I even found a descendent of one of their relatives, but he has no information either.
I am assuming Ernest McQuillan Hargraves is not his birth name, and he changed it for some reason, which makes it almost impossible to trace him. The only clues I have are these:
- It is surely no coincidence that the only couple of his claimed parents names were living in Melbourne only a decade before he married at age 33, and I assume he must have known them or have been related to them.
- In various genealogy magazines and websites, I have read quite a few stories of people who changed their names to escape from police, a debtor or an unwanted marriage, or because of an 'illegitimate' birth, but they almost always kept the same first name.
- He gave his middle name, McQuillan, to both his daughters by his first marriage, one of whom was my mum. That suggests to me that his original surname may have been McQuillan and he wanted to preserve it.
So my best and desperate guess is that he may have originally been Ernest McQuillan, but I can find no-one of that name that fits either. I feel I may have reached the proverbial brick wall, and perhaps my only hope is if someone happens to be researching a family where an Ernest or a McQuillan suddenly disappears.
I know it is a lot to ask, but does anyone have any ideas please?
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Hi Eric,
Welcome to rootschat :)
There is a probate packet at NSW state records http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/Entity.aspx?Path=\Item\637431 and also divorce papers.
I am going to state records next week and can photograph for you if you don't have this,
regards,
Ros
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I have tyo ask the question? Have you checked for various spellings (IE Hargreaves) name.
Neil
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Hmm delete above, seems he married NSW?
ERNEST MCQ HARGRAVES MARRIED GERTRUDE M ALDRIDGE IN SYDNEY REF # 14141/1924
Neil
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Hi Neil, thanks for the thought. But yes, I have tried the 'a' and 'ea', as well as with and without the 's", I don't know if these is much else.
That was his second marriage. I have had no trouble tracing him after 1913, but not before.
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That was his second marriage Neil, after divorce from first wife whom he married in Vic in 1913.
There is a will (?) for Francis Hargrave who died 1902 on pro-vic but it has not yet been digitised - I was thinking perhaps they adopted him http://prov.vic.gov.au/wills-and-probate
regards,
Ros
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There is a public tree with the marriage certificate for Ernest HARGRAVES and Olive Blanche CLARK at St Matthews, Prahran, 1913. His mother's name is given as Mary McWILLIAM (obviously this and the surname you have given are phonetically almost the same) and he was resident at Naval College, Jervis Bay (NSW) as a cook.
I'm sure you would have seen this certificate but I thought the info may be helpful in searching for him.
Cheers, Judith
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Ros, thanks so much for that kind offer.
I have the divorce details, but not the probate. I knew it was at Kingswood, and was planning to get out there one day..... Would that be a lot of trouble for you? If it was easy, it would be a great help for me please.
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hey Jude, sounds like a song coming on ;D... Do you think that Mary McWilliam be phonetically wrong form of Mary McQuillan. ???
Neil
MODIFIED :-[ You already thought that, DOH.... :-X
I dont think he would get his own name wrong on his marriage licence though.
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Hi Eric,
no problem for me to go - I am going to look up some stuff for other rootschatters too.
cheers,
Ros
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Thanks everyone for such a quick response. In reply to a few questions ....
1. The Francis & Mary connection.
I have obtained marriage and death information for Francis & Mary and their 9 children, and have followed most of these children through their lives via electoral rolls, etc. The only one who could possibly have changed his name to Ernest was Edward John, born 1875, and whose last record I could find was before the 1913 wedding, in 1909, when he is listed on the electoral rolls as a farmer. It isn't impossible that Edward John changed his name to Ernest McQuillan, gave up farming for cooking and dropped his age 5 years, then ran away with my grandmother to NSW, but I can't see any way to test that.
I live in Sydney (though a long way from Kingswood!) so I paid a couple of Victorian researchers to follow up more, by checking school records in Stawell & Carlton where they lived, police records and Francis' will (as you suggest, Ros). We couldn't find any trace of an Ernest - though, curiously, Francis' will wasn't granted probate until 1934, 32 years later.
The only possible (very vague) connections we found is that Francis Hargrave's father was a weaver, and one of his sons was a cook, same as Ernest. But that doesn't lead anywhere.
I also have been in contact with a descendant of one of Mary McQuillan's siblings, and he has quite a bit of family information, but nothing that identifies a possible Ernest.
2. The second marriage
Ernest married again and had one child. She was 7 when his second wife died and 12 when he died, so someone had to be looking after her for a while. She eventually went to England, married and moved to Rhodesia in 1956, and I haven't been able to trace her further. But her husband's name was Asgill-Tucker, quite an uncommon name, and there are a few Asgill-Tuckers in Australia now. Quite possibly the family migrated from Rhodesia after independence, but so far I haven't been able to contact any possible descendants.
3. The Jervis Bay connection
He was apparently a cook at the Jervis Bay Naval station, but was not a service person (according to an email from the Navy) and he left about the time it started up - so I assume he worked for the construction company. I haven't been able to find any record of all of this apart from my mum's memories and the notation on his marriage certificate.
Thanks everyone for helping out with suggestions. Thanks Ros for your wonderful help to a newcomer. Jude, I think you are right about the McWilliam/McQuillan thing being a mis-hearing, though when searching for McQuillan I usually also try McWilliam just in case.
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Why not purchase the birth certificate of the last child born to Francis and Mary. All the previous chn living and deceased should be listed. I wouldn't rely on the indexes alone.
Birth
HARGRAVE Felix Reuben
Father Francis Mother Mary McQUILLAN
At Melbourne South 1892 Reg#15572
Either of the parents' death certificates would also list their chn both living and deceased at the time of their deaths.
Cando
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Although I cannot at this stage find a marriage to confirm anything. I have a Francis Hargraves Married to a Mary in LEICESTERSHIRE 1861 census. They dont appear again in 1871?
Both Francis and Mary were born according to census in Castle Donington LEICESTERSHIRE. Francis and Mary 1837. They have one son Thomas aged 1 so born 1860. Only trouble is Francis is a Bootmaker?
Neil
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I have been able to find several Francis and Mary Hargraves in UK, but none of the Mary's were McQuillans.
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Why not purchase the birth certificate of the last child born to Francis and Mary. All the previous chn living and deceased should be listed. I wouldn't rely on the indexes alone.
Birth
HARGRAVE Felix Reuben
Father Francis Mother Mary McQUILLAN
At Melbourne South 1892 Reg#15572
Either of the parents' death certificates would also list their chn both living and deceased at the time of their deaths.
Cando
It's a good idea, but unfortunately it didn't work out. I have both Mary's and Francis's death certificates, but no mention of an Ernest. There was no formal adoption in Victoria back then, but he could have been informally adopted (though why he would say Francis was a weaver when he was a policeman I don't know).
My grandmother (who I haven't mentioned here before) was informally adopted, but she was not listed on either of her adopting parents' death certificates.
But thanks again to you, Neil and others who are offering suggestions. They are all worth making, and hopefully somewhere someone will hit upon an idea that breaks through.
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I couldn't find Asgill-Tuckers in whitepages but did find this http://www.reverseaustralia.com/lookup/0417914671/
cheers,
Ros
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Hi Eric,
Do you have Ernest's death certificate, and if so, what information does it give about how long he had lived in each State? Although not always accurate, this can be an indication of whether his family thought he had arrived as a child or as an adult.
Debra :)
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I note PROV has this Unassisted passenger:
Arr Dec 1865, Francis HARGRAVE, 20, per ship DONALD MCKAY, from a British port
(Fiche 252, p004)
Ancestry (not always reliable) shows this man as being English and the ship leaving from Liverpool.
Australian Marriage Index:
Victoria, 1870, #2765
Francis HARGRAVE, Mary Alice Mcguillan
Neither of which is any help :(
Judith
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Ros, thanks, I have found two Asgill-Tucker addresses in Australia, but when I wrote, both said they were no longer at that address. Thanks for this one, I'll give it a try.
Debra, his death certificate (1939) says "How long in Australasian colonies or states?" as "40 years in NSW", which would make him arriving from overseas around 1899. But was this true? I can find no immigration record for then, or any other time, and I know he must have been in Victoria long enough to meet and marry my grandmother - though that may have been a short time because she was in an unhappy family situation, and may have married to get away (my mum said they more or less eloped).
If he spent a long time in NSW, it would scuttle the idea he copied his name from Francis and Mary, who were always in Victoria after they arrived from Ireland.
I would love to find a reference to him in NSW pre 1913, and there are a few possible references in the Sands directories, but nothing conclusive.
Judith,
I think that is the correct marriage for the couple of interest, and may well be the right shipping link (as an Irish person, he could have travelled via Liverpool). But as you say, they don't seem to get us any further.
Thanks again to all of you.
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Information on his death certificate has possibly been copied from the marriage certificate. Doesn't mean it is accurate.
This Ernest had a medical condition according to this two page file on NAA and was born c1879 ie he was 37 years 0 months on 17 Mar 1916.
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/NAAMedia/ShowImage.asp?B=9532106&S=1&T=R
The signatures on the marriage cert and have similarities so I am assuming it is your Ernest.
Who registered the childrens' births?
Was his place of birth and age the same on all certificates?
Cando
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Information on his death certificate has possibly been copied from the marriage certificate. Doesn't mean it is accurate.
Yes, I agree.
This Ernest had a medical condition according to this two page file on NAA and was born c1879 ie he was 37 years 0 months on 17 Mar 1916.
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/NAAMedia/ShowImage.asp?B=9532106&S=1&T=R
The signatures on the marriage cert and have similarities so I am assuming it is your Ernest.
Yes, it was the same Ernest. He had a heart condition. Sometimes makes me wonder if he was older than he said.
Who registered the childrens' births?
I don't know, I have an official notification of my mother's birth, but not the actual certificate. Do you think this is important? Would it say any more than one of my grandparents' names?
Was his place of birth and age the same on all certificates?
Yes, except the age varied slightly (2-3 years) - I think he said he was a little younger at his second wedding, and a little older at his attempted enlistment.
Thanks for your interest.
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Have you looked into the family of Mary McQUILLAN? An obvious scenario would be that Ernest was the child of a sibling of hers or some other relation who the Hargrave family took in due to some circumstances (illegitimacy, death of parents when he was young, etc).
The probate records for Francis will be interesting - he died in 1902 but on the index there's the date 1934.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/10931639
- see this notice.
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The only one who could possibly have changed his name to Ernest was Edward John, born 1875, and whose last record I could find was before the 1913 wedding, in 1909, when he is listed on the electoral rolls as a farmer. It isn't impossible that Edward John changed his name to Ernest McQuillan, gave up farming for cooking and dropped his age 5 years, then ran away with my grandmother to NSW, but I can't see any way to test that.
This could be him here http://dhistory.org/archives/naa/items/4968824/
Debra :)
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Your mother's actual record may have more information, depending on where she was born (and how truthful the informant was). You may already have similar information but it would be interesting to see what information there is for Ernest on the record.
Here's the information asked for when registering a birth in Victoria
Births
Date and place of birth;
name of child and whether present or not;
name of parents (including mother's maiden name);
occupation of parents;
ages and birthplace of parents;
date and place of marriage of parents;
previous children of their marriage noting living or deceased;
signature, description and address of the person who gave the information;
names of those present at the birth;
date and place of registration.
NSW not quite so comprehensive
Full name, sex, date and place of birth
Mother's details including full name and maiden name, age, occupation, place of birth
Father's details including full name, age, occupation, place of birth
Date and place of parent's marriage
Previous children of the relationship
(You would probably already know that it's quicker and cheaper in NSW to order through a transcription agent who will email the information to you.)
When does he start using McQuillan as part of his name?
Judith
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Have you looked into the family of Mary McQUILLAN? An obvious scenario would be that Ernest was the child of a sibling of hers or some other relation who the Hargrave family took in due to some circumstances (illegitimacy, death of parents when he was young, etc).
Yes, I think that is the most likely scenario. I have looked into Mary's family - I was even able to contact and descendant of one of her siblings, still living in Melbourne, but though we went over that family tree together (by email), we couldn't find anything the pointed to Ernest. He was even able to contact a much older relative to see if there were any family stories, but there was nothing. Still doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that it wasn't recorded. As a researcher wrote to me: "It is a shame that the family are a 'tad careless' with their record keeping and details."
Finally, a researcher identified William, a brother of Francis who travelled to Australia with him, and it is possible that Francis and Mary fostered a child of his for some reason. I will have to check that further.
The probate records for Francis will be interesting - he died in 1902 but on the index there's the date 1934.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/10931639
- see this notice.
I have had someone find the probate records, but there was nothing there either. But I hadn't seen this notice before - I had searched Trove, but must not have searched as well as you did! It indicates that the were searching for other siblings, understandably as by then one was in South Africa, one in Queensland and one in South Australia (it appears - see next comment to Debra).
So thanks a lot for looking and finding this, it adds another small piece of information.
This could be him here http://dhistory.org/archives/naa/items/4968824/
Debra :)
That is a great find Debra - it certainly proves Edward John didn't change his name to Ernest, for he couldn't be getting injured in the AIF in Egypt at the same time as he was trying unsuccessfully to enlist in Narrabri NSW! That group of documents tells a story - he was fortunate enough to survive the war, albeit with a knee injury. But it also tells me what I didn't know previously, that he had moved to Adelaide and married Grace, hence why I couldn't find him easily.
How did you gain access to that set of documents?
Thanks heaps to both of you! Although I haven't resolved my problem (yet), you have all been wonderfully helpful, and I have learnt some new things.
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Your mother's actual record may have more information, depending on where she was born (and how truthful the informant was). You may already have similar information but it would be interesting to see what information there is for Ernest on the record.
Yes, I think you may be right that I should get that record, but he was consistent in what he said, so I'm doubtful it will say anything different. She was born in NSW.
When does he start using McQuillan as part of his name?
It is on every record I have of him, beginning at the 1913 wedding. I have searched for other Ernests, other McQuillans, etc, but found no-one that seemed very likely in Victoria.
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This may be a red herring but my cousin is married to a
McIlquham McILQUHAM (pronounced McQuillan) and this is variously been transcribed or spelt wrong. I think it is of Welsh origin.
Neil
MODIFIED
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Hmm, interesting (but probably not significant :-\ ) - the name McQuillan is not mentioned on the image for his 1913 marriage.
As I said before his mother's name is given as Mary McWilliam (perhaps phonetically recorded for McQuillan) and Ernest is recorded without a second forename in the body of the certificate, and signs as only Ernest HARGRAVES. Both of Olive's forenames are written in by the minister and also in her own signature. One of the witnesses signs with both of his forenames - but Ernest uses only Ernest .
Ernest is obviously literate so he should have seen that his mother's name was not correct. However in the excitement of a wedding it would be understandable if he didn't.
I note also that Francis HARGRAVE (the policeman) had been dead for 11 years and his wife Mary HARGRAVE for about 4 years by 1913.
So again I ask - when did he actually begin to use McQuillan as part of his name?
Judith
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Francis HARGRAVE is a bit of a shadowy chap as well (at least what can be seen by indexes, TROVE etc) I do not see a mention of him on TROVE, which is unusual for a country policeman, although perhaps the papers for the area have not yet been digitised. The probate request for 1934, and subsequent grant of Administration is also unusual - with so many children it would seem that one of them would want their share. Of course, there's lots of reasons why it was not sought until later.
What a pity it's not digitised!
Judith
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This may be a red herring but my cousin is married to a McIlquham McILQUHAM (pronounced McQuillan) and this is variously been transcribed or spelt wrong. I think it is of Welsh origin.
My goodness Neil, that is an unexpected spelling, I never would have thought of that. I will keep it in mind. Thanks
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Hmm, interesting (but probably not significant :-\ ) - the name McQuillan is not mentioned on the image for his 1913 marriage.
As I said before his mother's name is given as Mary McWilliam (perhaps phonetically recorded for McQuillan) and Ernest is recorded without a second forename in the body of the certificate, and signs as only Ernest HARGRAVES. Both of Olive's forenames are written in by the minister and also in her own signature. One of the witnesses signs with both of his forenames - but Ernest uses only Ernest .
Ernest is obviously literate so he should have seen that his mother's name was not correct. However in the excitement of a wedding it would be understandable if he didn't.
I note also that Francis HARGRAVE (the policeman) had been dead for 11 years and his wife Mary HARGRAVE for about 4 years by 1913.
So again I ask - when did he actually begin to use McQuillan as part of his name?
Judith
Thanks Judith. Sorry I gave you a wrong piece of information, I didn't look it up, I just thought I remembered. Yes, he didn't use McQuillan at his first wedding. Here is a summary of everything I have:
- Wedding 1913 - Ernest Hargraves
- Sands Directories, Gunnedah, several entries 1913-1918 - I have seen these but haven't noted if a middle name was given (I will check when I can)
- Birth of first daughter Olive 1915 - I haven't seen this, but daughter given 2nd name of McQuillan
- Attempted enlistment 1916 - Ernest Hargraves
- Birth of second daughter Jean 1916 - I haven't seen this; name not listed on Certificate of Entry in Register of Births, but daughter given 2nd name of McQuillan
- Divorce 1922,23 - entry in online NSW government database - Ernest Hargraves
- Marriage 1924 - Ernest McQuillan Hargraves (mother's name is clearly McQuillan, not McWilliam)
- Birth of third daughter Constance Shirley 1927 - don't know
- Property dispute, 1934 - Ernest McQuillan Hargraves
- Death 1939 - Ernest McQuillan Hargraves
- Weddings of 2 of his 3 daughters - Ernest McQuillan Hargraves
So the earliest I have is 1924, but it would be interesting to see what is on his three daughters' birth certificates, none of which I have. I clearly have a few things I might chase up.
Francis HARGRAVE is a bit of a shadowy chap as well (at least what can be seen by indexes, TROVE etc) I do not see a mention of him on TROVE, which is unusual for a country policeman, although perhaps the papers for the area have not yet been digitised. The probate request for 1934, and subsequent grant of Administration is also unusual - with so many children it would seem that one of them would want their share. Of course, there's lots of reasons why it was not sought until later.
I have one TROVE entry for him as a policeman, dated Tuesday November 10th (not sure if that's 1891 or 1896) in Footscray, where he had a somewhat violent time arresting two drunk men.
The family spread out a bit - to Adelaide, Queensland, NSW, country Victoria and South Africa - so it may have been hard to find them, and they appear not to have bothered until later, but I don't know what happened to provoke it then.
Thanks for your interest and ideas, it is bringing to light some areas I may need to look up.
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It's possible that Francis was in line to receive some money from another estate (e.g. from a sibling), and the administrators of that estate were the ones looking for relatives in 1934.
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Here is a summary of everything I have:
- Wedding 1913 - Ernest Hargraves
- Sands Directories, Gunnedah, several entries 1913-1918 - I have seen these but haven't noted if a middle name was given (I will check when I can)
- Birth of first daughter XXXXXX - I haven't seen this, but daughter given 2nd name of McQuillan
- Attempted enlistment 1916 - Ernest Hargraves
- Birth of second daughter XXXXXX 1916 - I haven't seen this; name not listed on Certificate of Entry in Register of Births, but daughter given 2nd name of McQuillan
- Divorce 1922,23 - entry in online NSW government database - Ernest Hargraves
[li]Marriage 1924 - Ernest McQuillan Hargraves (mother's name is clearly McQuillan, not McWilliam)[/li]
[li]Birth of third daughter XXXXXXX - don't know[/li]
[li]Property dispute, 1934 - Ernest McQuillan Hargraves[/li]
[li]Death 1939 - Ernest McQuillan Hargraves[/li]
[li]Weddings of 2 of his 3 daughters - Ernest McQuillan Hargraves[/li]
[/list]
So the earliest I have is 1924, but it would be interesting to see what is on his three daughters' birth certificates, none of which I have. I clearly have a few things I might chase up.
May I please mention that it is a NO NO to identify living people at RChat, so please Can you confirm that the daughters are no longer living?
On the other hand, ;D you mention you do not have birth certs .... ;D have you tried those NSW Divorce files you mentioned? ;D They are obviously earlier than 1924 ;D
Fingers crossed the following will be helpful
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/court-records/index-to-divorce-case-papers
These case papers can refer to Judicial Separations and not just Divorces. The case papers can include BDM certs (eg marriage for the couple, birth certs for any children of the marriage), correspondence, witness statements, medical records etc).
A Judical Separation does NOT terminate a marriage. So, a Judical Separation was OFTEN about custody of the children, and the payment of regular maintenance. I may be wrong, but on reading the index I think the petitioner was Ernest, and the respondent was Olive. You can order copies of the case papers from the NSW State Records Office. (link above) I see Ros has already offered to look these up for you ;D
The INDEX has two sets of case papers, and the index does NOT ever differentiate between the Judicial Separation and the Divorce case papers….
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1922 EdwardHARGRAVES and Olive Blanche HARGRAVES Case papers file #0749
1923 Edward HARGRAVES and Olive Blanche HARGRAVES Case papers file # 1353
The 1924 Marriage Ernest McQuillan HARGRAVES …. You have a copy of that. May I please ask for further details from that cert…. For example, what is recorded for the groom’s : occupation, age, place of birth, usual address, father’s occupation. The NSW BDM ref seems to be 14141.
Cheers, JM
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It's possible that Francis was in line to receive some money from another estate (e.g. from a sibling), and the administrators of that estate were the ones looking for relatives in 1934.
Yes, this may be right. But the family seems to have been a bit "all over the place", so it is hard to predict.
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May I please mention that it is a NO NO to identify living people at RChat, so please Can you confirm that the daughters are no longer living?
Hi, I'm sorry JM, I didn't know about that. I can confirm that the two older daughters are no longer alive, but I have no way of knowing whether the third is still alive - she would be 86 now, so could be. I only quoted names that appear on many public records, and which I could easily email to people, does that make any difference?
On the other hand, ;D you mention you do not have birth certs .... ;D have you tried those NSW Divorce files you mentioned? ;D They are obviously earlier than 1924 ;D
I have looked up the divorce papers (1922/23), but I don't think I got the full printout. I didn't think at the time that they were important for my search, but i can see that they might be now.
These case papers can refer to Judicial Separations and not just Divorces. The case papers can include BDM certs (eg marriage for the couple, birth certs for any children of the marriage), correspondence, witness statements, medical records etc).
A Judical Separation does NOT terminate a marriage. So, a Judical Separation was OFTEN about custody of the children, and the payment of regular maintenance. I may be wrong, but on reading the index I think the petitioner was Ernest, and the respondent was Olive. You can order copies of the case papers from the NSW State Records Office. (link above) I see Ros has already offered to look these up for you ;D
The INDEX has two sets of case papers, and the index does NOT ever differentiate between the Judicial Separation and the Divorce case papers….
.
1922 EdwardHARGRAVES and Olive Blanche HARGRAVES Case papers file #0749
1923 Edward HARGRAVES and Olive Blanche HARGRAVES Case papers file # 1353
My mum told me there were arguments about custody and maintenance. I couldn't understand why there were two separate files, but you have explained why that may be, thanks.
The 1924 Marriage Ernest McQuillan HARGRAVES …. You have a copy of that. May I please ask for further details from that cert…. For example, what is recorded for the groom’s : occupation, age, place of birth, usual address, father’s occupation. The NSW BDM ref seems to be 14141.
Name: Ernest McQuillan Hargraves
Occupation: Chef
Date: 27 December 1924
Age: 42 (meaning birth in 1882, which is slightly younger than when he first married!)
Usual address: Kensington
Place of birth: Lincoln, England
Father's occupation: Francis Hargraves (deceased), Weaver
Mother: Mary McQuillan
Apart from the couple of years reduction in age, and the insertion of the middle name of McQuillan, this is the same as at his first wedding.
Thanks for your interest.
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I think it would be best to remove the name of the one born 1927. It is a NO NO at RChat to identify anyone who may be living. I have stacks of NSW rellies alive and alert who are born earlier than 1927 ;D they are so very particular about their privacy.
Re the two marriages for Ernest.... how does the signature compare for the groom?
In the mean time, I will see if I can find him on my 1913 NSW Electoral Rolls on a CD here. CD has been misbehaving a tad recently. I hope it will get its act together on this occasion. ;D
Don't forget to send a PM to RChatter Ros re the "divorce files" as well as the probate in case Ros can help you when she is next at NSW SRO.
Cheers, JM
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Important Question ;D
Does the 1924 marriage give Ernest as a Divorcee Petitioner or Divorcee ? This information is usually on the front page of the two page version, where it reads "insert Designation, Residence and Condition of Bridegroom" so it is the CONDITION .... Bachelor, Divorcee Petitioner or Divorcee etc
Or if you are looking at a NSW BDM certificate (as opposed to the original cert issued when the marriage took place) then you need to look at Column 4 Conjugal Status.
Or if you are looking at an Official Transcription, you need to look at the sub heading STATUS under the heading GROOM
Cheers, JM
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I think it would be best to remove the name of the one born 1927. It is a NO NO at RChat to identify anyone who may be living.
It seems it's too late for me to do that in the one post I have mentioned that name, but I would be happy for a moderator to do that. I'll remember in future.
Re the two marriages for Ernest.... how does the signature compare for the groom?
Now this is the strange thing. he has clearly signed the 1913 (Victorian) certificate (his and the bride's handwriting are clearly different to the Minister's. But on the 1924 (NSW) certificate, all writing but the Deputy Registrar General's at the bottom seems to be the same, including the supposed signatures of the happy couple. Then at the very bottom there is a statement dated 2011 and signed by the Registrar that "this is a true copy of particulars recorded in a Register in the State of NSW ..."
I hadn't thought of this before, but that must mean it isn't a copy of the original certificate, but effectively a verified but nevertheless pretend copy - is that right? Does that mean the original is lost?? I am out of my depth here!
In the mean time, I will see if I can find him on my 1913 NSW Electoral Rolls on a CD here. CD has been misbehaving a tad recently. I hope it will get its act together on this occasion. ;D
That would be wonderful thanks. I have tried to find him on electoral rolls, but found noting this early.
Don't forget to send a PM to RChatter Ros re the "divorce files" as well as the probate in case Ros can help you when she is next at NSW SRO.
Thanks, yes I have done that.
I must again express my great appreciation of how helpful people here are being. Thank you all.
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Important Question ;D
Does the 1924 marriage give Ernest as a Divorcee Petitioner or Divorcee ? This information is usually on the front page of the two page version, where it reads "insert Designation, Residence and Condition of Bridegroom" so it is the CONDITION .... Bachelor, Divorcee Petitioner or Divorcee etc
Or if you are looking at a NSW BDM certificate (as opposed to the original cert issued when the marriage took place) then you need to look at Column 4 Conjugal Status.
Or if you are looking at an Official Transcription, you need to look at the sub heading STATUS under the heading GROOM
Cheers, JM
As I have just been saying, it looks like it's maybe a transcript, not an original, though it shows all the entries in handwriting. Anyway, he is listed under "conjugal status" as "Bachelor". I wondered when I saw it whether that simply meant he was no divorced and therefore single again. Or does it mean he told a small untruth?
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the 1924 (NSW) certificate, all writing but the Deputy Registrar General's at the bottom seems to be the same, including the supposed signatures of the happy couple. Then at the very bottom there is a statement dated 2011 and signed by the Registrar that "this is a true copy of particulars recorded in a Register in the State of NSW ..."
I hadn't thought of this before, but that must mean it isn't a copy of the original certificate, but effectively a verified but nevertheless pretend copy - is that right? Does that mean the original is lost??
:) Where and when and who conducted the ceremony for that 1924 marriage? The NSW BDM Registrar General was receiving the details from the licenced person conducting the ceremony. I think your cert is based on that lodgement. I am interested in getting you to the original records rather than just as far as the NSW BDM's records....
You say the 1913 marriage was in Victoria ..... perhaps then I will not find your chap on NSW Electoral Roll in time for the Dec 1913 elections....
Cheers, JM
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Bachelor is the word used by the person conducting the ceremony, the celebrant chose to use that word, and would have taken a great deal of time explaining about the law at that time. I would expect to find the word Divorcee Petitioner or Divorcee on the document.
NSW Marriage Act 1899 Have a read of the (1 October 2012) posts on the following thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=617452.msg4664084#msg4664084 as to what the bride and the groom were required to swear to about themselves.
Using the word Bachelor is actually pointing to the 1924 Ernest McQuillan HARGRAVES being a different chap from the one married in 1913 as Ernest Hargraves.
I think you need to wait until Ros has got to the Divorce papers before proceeding much further.
Cheers, JM
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The 1924 marriage was conducted by Rev Hugh Paton at the St Stephens Presbyterian Church in Phillip St Sydney on 27 December 1924, with the certificate received and registered on 29th. Perhaps Rev Paton filled in their names rather than getting them and the witnesses to sign? Is it possible for me to post a scanned copy of what I have here???
Ernest says he was living at Jervis Bay NSW when he was married in 1913, and my mum told me they moved there immediately after the wedding. But my grandmother remained on the Melbourne electoral rolls for several years after she moved to NSW, so Ernest could have been in either location in Dec 13, I guess, but Jervis Bay seems most likely.
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Bachelor is the word used by the person conducting the ceremony, the celebrant chose to use that word, and would have taken a great deal of time explaining about the law at that time. I would expect to find the word Divorcee Petitioner or Divorcee on the document.
NSW Marriage Act 1899 Have a read of the (1 October 2012) posts on the following thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=617452.msg4664084#msg4664084 as to what the bride and the groom were required to swear to about themselves.
Using the word Bachelor is actually pointing to the 1924 Ernest McQuillan HARGRAVES being a different chap from the one married in 1913 as Ernest Hargraves.
I think you need to wait until Ros has got to the Divorce papers before proceeding much further.
Cheers, JM
Yes, this is certainly curious. But I think they are indeed the same person. My mother's family stories were often wrong (I think she was just telling me what she was told), but she did report that her father married again and had another daughter, and the names of wife and daughter are correct.
I think Ernest may have been a bit of a rogue, and if he could obscure his past before 1913, adjust his age a little to appear younger, divorce his wife and try to avoid maintenance, and then have the gall to ask his first wife to look after the 7 year old daughter from his second marriage when his second wife died (which my mother also told me, and the ages and dates check out), then I'm thinking he might say anything.
But obviously we have to keep all possibilities in mind, and the divorce papers will certainly be helpful. I really appreciate the thought you and others are putting into this. I have done a lot of work and thinking on this, and have a lot of information, but you all are still coming up with new thoughts. Thanks again.
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No need to attach any part of the document Eric. I am not doubting you at all. What I am suggesting is that Rev Paton completed the civil registration section and sent that off to NSW BDM.
Civil registration for marriage commenced 1856 in NSW. So from then, whenever a couple are married in a church, there is actually TWO ceremonies, usually running concurrently. There is the Church service and there is the Civil component. So when the couple are led off to sign the register, and the witnesses go along with them, the two ceremonies become quite significant. The church register is signed (sometimes several times, ie at least twice if a C of E service) and then the civil register is signed. In some countries these two ceremonies are held on different days. In NSW they have been held together since the introduction by the NSW Parliament of the civil component.
So it is unlikely that both the church register and the civil register are lost. It is of course possible that the clergy transposed the information onto the forms for the NSW BDM, rather than have the couple sign these at the same time as the parish register and the civil register.
Very complicated administrative procedure of course ;D NSW government adminstrative procedures are often so even today :)
My CD for 1913 is NOT working ..... I will try other ways :)
Cheers, JM
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Eric, the copy you have (NSW marriage) is, as it states - a 'certified copy'. It is a transcription by authorities of what was on the actual original document. JM is great at NSW BMDs and can often find the source of the actual record as opposed to the record kept by NSW BMDs.
The 'signatures' are not actually those of the couple, merely a transcription of the signatures, stating the names they signed by. It is not an image of the actual record that they signed. An example of this is my own UK marriage certificate, the whole of which is written by one person and the original signatures are not there. The certificate shows that we signed and the names we used for the signatures but in the handwriting of the person copying from the original.
The record for the 1913 marriage in Victoria is an actual image of the register therefore it shows the actual signatures, as opposed to them being passed on to the BMD registrar.
I hope I've made sense - perhaps just added to your confusion!!
This is a great search, most interesting! ;D
Judith
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Thanks Judith, yes, that's a much better explanation.
I had pulled out my own NSW mc. and was trying to think of how to explain ....
Eric, I am not much good as a wordsmith ... I am far too long winded .... but re my NSW mc ... (C of E, several err many ;D decades ago, and still married to same person ::) ) .... I am currently looking at the copy that the Rev hands to the bride. This copy includes the original signatures of the bride, the groom and our witnesses as well as the Rev's signature and very little else. That was one of several documents we signed that day. As I recall, we signed at least two church registers and one civil register and the certificate. I have photos of each set of signings... ;D Photographer was trigger happy that day ;D
Now, as an aside, that actual certificate that I hold is no longer valid for IDENTIFICATION purposes. It is now called a "ceremonial certificate". It does NOT list the parental details, nor the ages of the bride or groom or even our respective statuses.
Further aside .... So
When acquiring an Australian passport, if one is married, and is using one's spousal surname (politically correct stuffs here) one must have the NSW BDM issued certified copy of the marriage.
And thus an additional aside
That certified copy is a TYPED UP document.... not quite the correct words .... it is a computer generated document, an does NOT include any signatures for comparsion. We got married after 1952 so NSW BDM will NOT ever release any document with our original signatures on it. NSW BDM records went EDP in early 1980s.
However, remember that like my own marriage, YOUR chap's was conducted by a minister of religion, so there is always the religious ceremony's record in the church/parish registers . These do exist (as far as I know, all denominations have their own Church Laws which forbid the deliberate destruction of these sacred registers). In my instance the parish registers do have our original signatures which of course match up with the ones on MY marriage cert.
Sorry for the side tracking, but hopefully it will give you reason to hunt up Rev Paton's registers.
These could be located at a number of places. The Presbyterian denominations joined up with the Methodists and others to become the Uniting Church. Some congregations remained outside of this unification.
Archivists involved in preserving Church records are usually dedicated volunteers. So you may need to be patient in waiting for replies, and you may need to offer to make a donation. Of course, please do provide them with a good clear copy of the marriage cert that you have, It may well be that if there is a number in the very first column that it is a significant number lining up with the local church register ;D
Possible links:
Uniting Church Archives
http://nsw.uca.org.au/church/archives.htm
Presbyterian Church Archives
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AUS-NSW/2010-01/1264060133
St Stephens Presbyterian Church in Phillip St Sydney
http://www.sydneyorgan.com/StStephens.html
Cheers, JM
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I think you need to wait until Ros has got to the Divorce papers before proceeding much further.
OK I'm definitely going on wednesday :) (and have some other rootschatters records to look at too)
cheers,
Ros
It is an interesting search - I hope there are some clues there :)
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My goodness, you people really know a lot, thanks for all that information! I will try to find the original Presbyterian registers. According to one of those links, Phillip St Presbyterian became St Stephens Presbyterian in Macquarie St, then St Stephens Uniting, so the registers had to survive two changes, but I can hope.
I am glad you are enjoying this "interesting" search - I'm afraid my original enjoyment is now tinged with frustration. But I am getting more hopeful again!
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Eric, I've seen the posts on the other genealogical forum with some obviously very reliable input from UK. I wonder if it's worth asking on R'chat's Lincolnshire Board for info re Ernest's origins which he consistently lists as "Lincoln'?
You can easily link this post with a new one on the Lincolnshire board - just another avenue to try!
At least the rest of us can just enjoy the challenge of this search which has a bit more emotional investment for you! This Australia Board has some very competent and willing researcher with access to a variety of resources, and can often find a chink in a brick wall. Genealogy smartens up the brain cells no end ;D, although my husband refers to the pastime as a bit sad. ::) No dinner for him tonight! ;)
Judith
Judith
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Eric, I've seen the posts on the other genealogical forum with some obviously very reliable input from UK. I wonder if it's worth asking on R'chat's Lincolnshire Board for info re Ernest's origins which he consistently lists as "Lincoln'?
You can easily link this post with a new one on the Lincolnshire board - just another avenue to try!
Thanks for this suggestion, it's certainly worth a try! Can you please just give me a little more direction. I can see the Lincolnshire board - do you mean to start another discussion there with a link to this one?
At least the rest of us can just enjoy the challenge of this search which has a bit more emotional investment for you! This Australia Board has some very competent and willing researcher with access to a variety of resources, and can often find a chink in a brick wall. Genealogy smartens up the brain cells no end ;D, although my husband refers to the pastime as a bit sad. ::) No dinner for him tonight! ;)
You need to be kind to us silly men sometimes!! :) I am actually in awe of how enthusiastic and helpful people here have been, and how much I have learnt. I hope my brick wall falls before this onslaught!
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If it were me I'd put up another thread on the Lincolnshire board asking for information regarding his possible birth in Lincolnshire, and the parents' names. It can easily be linked to this thread.
I see a couple of possibles on FreeBMD
Births Jun 1882
Ernest Edward HARGRAVE,, reg Spalding Lincs, Vol 7a, p39
Can't see this one in 1891 census in UK.
This next one is a bit late and wrong name on FreeBMD. Of course, he may have made up all of his name for all we know!
Births Sep 1884
Ernest HARGREAVES reg at Glanford Briggs. Vol 7a, p737
Judith
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1911 Census CANADA:
Ernest HARGRAVES born ENGLAND Sept 1882, age 28yrs, Single, Occupation - Soldier.
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Have been reading this post with interest, have you looked at the two witnesses as Ernest's first marriage, Alice Stokes and William Stephen Baker (looks like Baker) - do these names ring any bells?
Deb
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If it were me I'd put up another thread on the Lincolnshire board asking for information regarding his possible birth in Lincolnshire, and the parents' names. It can easily be linked to this thread.
I have done that now, so we'll see if I get any new info.
I see a couple of possibles on FreeBMD
There are quite a few Ernest Hargraves, but I found none that (1) had McQuillan as middle name, (2) had Francis H and Mary McQ as parents, (3) lived in Lincoln (or Linton) and (4) migrated to Australia about 1899. Obviously if he has changed his name, not all of these may be true, but I couldn't identify him without several of them at least.
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Have been reading this post with interest, have you looked at the two witnesses as Ernest's first marriage, Alice Stokes and William Stephen Baker (looks like Baker) - do these names ring any bells?
How are you able to see the certificate?
Yes, I have had a little look at them, but I didn't get very far.
The family story about this wedding is a little vague, but it seems they married without telling Olive's adoptive mum (her adoptive dad had already died), and left immediately afterwards for NSW - more or less eloping. I have the impression, but only an impression, from my mum that it was a short romance and a quick decision for Olive to get away from an unhappy parent. So I'm not sure if the witnesses were friends, or just people from the church to sign the certificate.
Anyway, I found an Alice Maud Stokes who was born in 1890 (so 1 year older than Olive), parents: James Joseph Stokes and Mary Ann Parker, and I think lived in Richmond, which is nearby. I couldn't find a WS Baker in either Victoria or NSW, but I did find a WS Parker, born 1883 in Inglewood to WH Parker and Elizabeth Manlein (I also found some other W Parkers) - and Parker looks possible from the certificate. But he also died in Inglewood so not sure if he would have come to a wedding in Melbourne.
Is it a coincidence that Parker was the name of Maud Stokes' mother? Were they from the same family? Is it a coincidence that Inglewood isn't all that far from Stawell in NW Victoria where the real Francis & Mary lived for a while? Probably, but who knows? But so far, I haven't found any more than that.
Can you make anything of all that? ???
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Eric, the certificate is posted on a Public Tree on Ancestry so it's easy to access if you have a subscription.
The witness signature looks more like Parker to me than Baker but it's not easy to read. I do believe you are right in that somehow Ernest knew the HARGRAVE couple and used their names for his parents. Perhaps he boarded/lived with them at some point. Perhaps he did have a father with the HARGRAVES surname. It is just so tantalising that he consistently said he was born in Lincoln and gave an occupation for his father. Added to the fact that the HARGRAVE couple had died some time before the marriage and that he knew the maiden name for Mary HARGRAVE.
Where else did Francis and Mary live? They must have been in Melbourne around the 1890s when Francis was arresting drunks in Footscray.
Judith
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TROVE has an article (Aug 1896) on the retirement function for Constable HARGRAVE which states that he had joined the police force in 1869 and had been the watch-house keeper at South Melbourne police station for the past 12 years. Doesn't mention a forename for him so perhaps it's not the right HARGRAVE. :-\
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/108481415
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William Stephen PARKER lived at High Street, Prahran, and was a Verger. It seems likely that his church was St. Matthews where the wedding took place.
Debra :)
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Eric, the certificate is posted on a Public Tree on Ancestry so it's easy to access if you have a subscription.
That's probably my tree, I had forhotten I might have posted the certificate. So that worked out well!
The witness signature looks more like Parker to me than Baker but it's not easy to read. I do believe you are right in that somehow Ernest knew the HARGRAVE couple and used their names for his parents. Perhaps he boarded/lived with them at some point. Perhaps he did have a father with the HARGRAVES surname. It is just so tantalising that he consistently said he was born in Lincoln and gave an occupation for his father. Added to the fact that the HARGRAVE couple had died some time before the marriage and that he knew the maiden name for Mary HARGRAVE.
I agree with all that, especially the "tantalising". He seemed to do quite well at disguising his origins.
Where else did Francis and Mary live? They must have been in Melbourne around the 1890s when Francis was arresting drunks in Footscray.
F & M were both born in Ireland and came to Australia as children or early teens. They met and married in Stawell area in 1870 (some of their children were born at Pleasant Creek which is near Stawell), and moved to Melbourne (Carlton) in about 1882. A descendant of the McQuillan family I have been in contact with says that Francis/Frank had the reputation of being a "wild Irishman", so it is interesting that he became a cop. After Francis died in about 1902, Mary seems to have moved to Bunyip, SE of Melbourne until she died in 1909.
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William Stephen PARKER lived at High Street, Prahran, and was a Verger. It seems likely that his church was St. Matthews where the wedding took place.
Debra :)
Hey, that is interesting Debra, how did you find that out? (He presumably wasn't the SW Parker I found at Inglewood then!?) Yes, it was an Anglican Church and I think they used to have vergers, and it is located in High St. So that fits with my mum's story that the wedding was hurried and they left Melbourne straight after, and used someone on-site as a witness.
Thanks. It's another small part of the jigsaw.
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TROVE has an article (Aug 1896) on the retirement function for Constable HARGRAVE which states that he had joined the police force in 1869 and had been the watch-house keeper at South Melbourne police station for the past 12 years. Doesn't mention a forename for him so perhaps it's not the right HARGRAVE. :-\
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/108481415
But it all fits, so I think it more likely that he was. Still, always be ready for the unexpected!
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F & M were both born in Ireland and came to Australia as children or early teens. They met and married in Stawell area in 1870 (some of their children were born at Pleasant Creek which is near Stawell), and moved to Melbourne (Carlton) in about 1882. A descendant of the McQuillan family I have been in contact with says that Francis/Frank had the reputation of being a "wild Irishman", so it is interesting that he became a cop. After Francis died in about 1902, Mary seems to have moved to Bunyip, SE of Melbourne until she died in 1909.
As you said earlier, Ernest seems to have felt the need to preserve the McQUILLAN name so it might be worth pursuing that a bit longer.
Was Mary McQUILLAN's family the one who arrived in 1857 on the Arabian? http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=24 (McQUELLAN)
The parents' names of these children on the later death indexes are the same as Mary's - father James, mother Mary FITZPATRICK, though at least one has John instead of James.
If they are the ones, then I notice that Catherine died in 1881 aged 25. Does the descendant of this family know what her cause of death was? May be worth finding out if it was childbirth related?
Another sister, Ann/Annie, did not marry and died in 1906 at Williamstown. I can see what may be an ex-nuptial female child born to an Annie McQ. in 1876 in Melbourne - I wonder was this the same Annie?
Just having a bit of a look around it seems that the McQUILLANs were also at Stawell (Pleasant Creek) and were Catholic. The Stawell/Biarri genealogy group have access to the baptism registers for St. Patricks Roman Catholic Church and even if a birth was not registered, it is likely that the child would be baptised. http://home.vicnet.net.au/~stawgeny/library.html
This may be something that you would have to do yourself or perhaps by someone who knows the full story because it may be under a different name and you don't know a date, just looking for clues and sponsors' names. Maybe for a start you could have a search done using the names you already have. I wouldn't imagine that there would be a massive number of baptisms there c1880.
Of course this is ignoring the 'born in Lincoln' scenario, but I once spent an age looking for someone who consistantly said he was born in Kent, only to have the paper trail lead to Tasmania ::)
Out of interest, Ernest gave his place of residence as NSW when he married, did your mother know why he was in Victoria?
Debra :)
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By the way there were no big clues in the probate and divorce records for Ernest. There was certainly no middle name or initial for Ernest on the divorce documents.
If you pm me your e-mail address Eric I can give you a link to the document photographs (poorly done sorry :-[ - will redo next week)
regards,
Ros
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As you said earlier, Ernest seems to have felt the need to preserve the McQUILLAN name so it might be worth pursuing that a bit longer.
Yes, I think that is true.
Was Mary McQUILLAN's family the one who arrived in 1857 on the Arabian? http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=24 (McQUELLAN)
The family arrived in January 1857, I'm told, so this seems to be them.
If they are the ones, then I notice that Catherine died in 1881 aged 25. Does the descendant of this family know what her cause of death was? May be worth finding out if it was childbirth related?
No. Someone else suggested that, and I checked, but the descendent has only the BDM register entry, not the full certificate. I'll wait to see what else comes up, but if it seems necessary, I will get it .
Another sister, Ann/Annie, did not marry and died in 1906 at Williamstown. I can see what may be an ex-nuptial female child born to an Annie McQ. in 1876 in Melbourne - I wonder was this the same Annie?
This is extremely interesting. Where did you find this? Were there any details of age of Annie? I suppose there were more than one Annie McQuillan around, but "our" Annie died in Williamtown in 1906, so unlike some others in the extended family, she definitely didn't stay her whole life in the Stawell area. I think this is one of the best possibilities for me to investigate. Ernest lowered his age 2 years between his two weddings, so I think it is quite feasible that he may have lowered it even more for his first one (he would have been 37 instead of 33 if this was him).
Just having a bit of a look around it seems that the McQUILLANs were also at Stawell (Pleasant Creek) and were Catholic. The Stawell/Biarri genealogy group have access to the baptism registers for St. Patricks Roman Catholic Church and even if a birth was not registered, it is likely that the child would be baptised. http://home.vicnet.net.au/~stawgeny/library.html
This is a good thought too. If Catherine died in childbirth, it would have been at Stawell I think, and Francis & Mary were in Stawell until the next year, so it is quite possible such a child wasn't registered and they took the child on. Only a faint hope, but better than no hope! ???
Out of interest, Ernest gave his place of residence as NSW when he married, did your mother know why he was in Victoria?
I asked my mum years ago but I didn't write it down and I'm not sure now. I think she said he was on a holiday, which would figure, but unfortunately many other things she was told turned out not to be true. But if he came from Victoria and had relatives in Melbourne, but he was working in NSW, coming back to Melbourne for a holiday would be logical.
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Lilly McQUILLAN
Father: Not named
Mother: Annie McQUILLAN
Born: Melbourne, Victoria, 1876
# 1188
I checked this index but unfortunately nothing for the surname is showing.
http://www.ozgenonline.com/vic_data/royal_womens_hospital/
http://www.thewomens.org.au/PatientRecords
".....a large proportion – occasionally as many as half – of the women giving birth at the hospital were unmarried......an institution that assisted the morally lapsed". (I love that expression)
Catherine's death was registered at Pleasant Creek in 1881 (#8425), father is named as John, not James, mother Mary FITZPATRICK. The burial register might have a cause of death without having to purchase the death cert ???
Debra :)
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Lilly McQUILLAN
Father: Not named
Mother: Annie McQUILLAN
Born: Melbourne, Victoria, 1876
# 1188
I checked this index but unfortunately nothing for the surname is showing.
http://www.ozgenonline.com/vic_data/royal_womens_hospital/
http://www.thewomens.org.au/PatientRecords
Thanks again for your help, Debra. Well, that ends that possibility. :'( I don't think Ernest changed his name from Lilly!!!
".....a large proportion – occasionally as many as half – of the women giving birth at the hospital were unmarried......an institution that assisted the morally lapsed". (I love that expression)
My grandma was born in the same way - makes tracing back earlier very difficult, as often the mothers gave false names.
Catherine's death was registered at Pleasant Creek in 1881 (#8425), father is named as John, not James, mother Mary FITZPATRICK. The burial register might have a cause of death without having to purchase the death cert ???
I certainly will look further into this, thanks.
I have also received Ernest's divorce and probate documentation from Ros (so much thanks to her!), and it revealed a lot of touching personal information, confirming many of my mum's stories. As far a solid information is concerned, we learn:
- He left his 12 year old daughter in the care of a couple from Bowral. I always wondered who looked after her, and there may perhaps be some information if I follow them up.
- He only used the name Ernest Hargraves, no McQuillan, at the time of his divorce, but added the McQuillan just a couple of years later, at his second marriage.
- The documentation consistently says he was born in Lincoln. He wasn't changing that story! So we are left with either Lincoln being fictional, or his name being fictional, or both (unless some new and startling evidence turns up).
So that's the latest. Thanks again everyone.
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There is an Asgill-Tucker tree on Ancestry, showing Henry Asgill-Tucker born 10th December 1926 Manchester, Lancashire, died 19th July 1996 (doesn't say where). His wife is shown as "Private". No parent names for either are given. The tree is owned by their granddaughter. I have a strong feeling this may be your family.
Deb
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There is an Asgill-Tucker tree on Ancestry, showing Henry Asgill-Tucker born 10th December 1926 Manchester, Lancashire, died 19th July 1996 (doesn't say where). His wife is shown as "Private". No parent names for either are given. The tree is owned by their granddaughter. I have a strong feeling this may be your family.
Deb
Thanks heaps, Deb. I'm sure I've looked for Asgill-Tucker on Ancestry and found nothing except the wedding, so either I missed this or it is new. That could be a real find, thanks.
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Eric, your Aunt (Ernest's youngest daughter & your Mum's half sister) is still alive :)
I will PM her contact details to you.
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The excitement is palpable!
Deb
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I am certainly very excited. I never dreamed this would happen!! Thanks everyone so much.
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You're not wrong Deb. can hardly wait :o. Do hope the lady in question can help. Bated breath and tenterhooks ........... Judith
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Well, the letter has been posted (I didn't think it best to ring up out of the blue), so now the wait to see what response.
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Lilly McQUILLAN
Father: Not named
Mother: Annie McQUILLAN
Born: Melbourne, Victoria, 1876
# 1188
Thanks again for your help, Debra. Well, that ends that possibility. :'( I don't think Ernest changed his name from Lilly!!!
I was thinking along the lines that as Annie never married, this may not be the only child she had. That is of course if this is the same Annie.
If you do find that there is a link to Francis HARGRAVE you can obtain a copy of his service record. I did this some years ago but I can't remember who I contacted. I know it wasn't PROV, but I think it was either the Police Historical Society or the Museum. Somebody else might know more.
http://www.vicpolhistory.org.au/
http://www.policemuseum.vic.gov.au/
Best of luck with your new contact :D
Debra :)
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While I'm waiting to see if I get a reply to my letter to Ernest's daughter, I thought I'd keep the pot simmering by summarising what I learnt from the mass of written material Ros so kindly provided from Ernest's divorce and probate.
1. In every reference I saw to Ernest's birth, he uniformly says it was in Lincoln UK.
2. The divorce and custody proceedings included a large number of documents. I don't recall him using his middle name of McQuillan anywhere, yet his marriage a year later included it, as did his will 15 years later.
3. The divorce/custody proceedings included some personal letters, used in evidence, I think, by Olive to show him admitting fault, etc. But they show him either to be a clever rogue (the family view passed down to me) or someone with more genuine feeling than he may have been given credit for. These were well worth seeing.
4. His will gives no further information for finding out his origins, but does resolve how his 12 year old daughter was cared for (by a couple he nominated), and shows he seems to have invested in a rental property, so his estate was worth over Ł3000 (which appears to be about 10 x the average annual income, and therefore equivalent to about $700,000 today if I've worked it out right), but he owed nearly as much, so the final amount wasn't nearly so impressive.
5. Despite the acrimonious split in the family at the divorce, if his third daughter didn't live to 21, the 2 daughters by the first marriage would get the money.
Nothing really there to help in the main search, but interesting for me. Thanks again to Ros, and to everyone.
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Hello everyone, after a long gap, I have some good news to report.
I have contacted the lady who Merlin found, and she is indeed the daughter of my grandfather from his second marriage. I have spent a very enjoyable hour talking halfway across the world on the phone to her tonight. I have learned much about her life, and she is a lovely person. So that is all good.
She doesn't have much family history information to offer me that will help in tracing my grandfather's birth, though she has some old photos and paperwork so you never know what might turn up. But she definitely has photos of him, and is sending some to me, so that will be of great interest to me as I have none.
So the search will continue, and I may post some more questions here as I follow up on some of the information and suggestions you have all offered. But thank you all so much for your help, which has led me to this point. It truly is exciting.
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That's fantastic Eric :) :) It's so wonderful when families reconnect :) And to get some more photos is so exciting.
cheers,
Ros
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Good news, Eric. many thanks for letting us know.
Judith
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Your joy is infectious and has brought a big smile to my face :D. Such a happy outcome!
Deb
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Catching up on some look-ups so had a look at the PROV fiche for the arrival of Francis HARGRAVE which gives no further useful information.
Passenger details for those on the Donald McKay, arr Melbourne
Embarked at Liverpool, steerage passengers -
47193 Wm HARGRAVE, 22, Lab, English
Francis Do 20, " , English
So it would seem that this Francis arrived with a brother (possibly cousin) as the ticket includes both of them, ticketed to Melbourne.
Cheers, Judith - will be wonderful to see photos of him and possibly the paper work may yield something. :-\
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Okay....this is a big longshot, but one never knows. On the Victoria, Australia, Index to the Children's Registers of State Wards, 1850 -1893 on Ancestry, there is an entry for a George Henry (transcribed Hanry) Ernest Ah Sing. There are two other entries for this child, next he is known as George Henry Ernest Espline (name maybe anglicised from Ah Sing??) and then known as George Henry Ernest Hargraves. All entries have the same Volume No.16 and Page No.120. It says he was born in 1888. There are a number of siblings listed with him, all encountering the same surname changes. The eldest being born in 1882, the youngest born in 1892. They too are in Volume 16 but with different page numbers.
On the Australian Birth index, there is an entry for a George Henry Ah Sing, born in Sale Victoria to parents Ah Sing Ah Sing and Annie Margaret Nolan. All six siblings listed have the same parents and were born in Sale. These are the same siblings on the state ward index.
Interestingly, on the Australian Marriage Index, there is a marriage of an Annie Margaret Nolan to a William Mardgraves at Victoria in 1874 Reg No. 4292. I could find no marriage to an Ah Sing.
I contacted PROV this morning, some State Ward files have been digitised but unfortunately not Volume 16 as yet.
Am I being too far fetched in wondering if George Henry Ernest Hargraves is a contender, even though the year of birth is 1888? And I have to ask the question Eric, is it possible that you are of Chinese heritage?
Just putting it out there,
Deb
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Okay....this is a big longshot, but one never knows. ..... And I have to ask the question Eric, is it possible that you are of Chinese heritage?
Hi Deb, that is an amazing find. My wife thinks it isn't possible, because that would make me one-eighth Chinese and my mother one quarter, but there is no evidence of any of the characteristic Chinese features such as straight black hair - most of my relatives in this line have brown wavy to curly hair.
But I am not so sure. Possibilities include:
1. The original Mr Ah Sing may have already only had one Chinese ancestor (say a grandfather), so my genetic inheritance would have been far less Chinese.
2. I'm intrigued by the marriage to Mr Mardgraves (presumably a mis-spelling) in 1874, and the birth of children surnamed Ah Sing in the period 1882-1892. I have heard of cases (there is one I found in my wife's family line) where a woman had children by several different fathers, some named, some unnamed, and there being some uncertainty about which of several men were the father in some cases. The final surname can reflect current partnership rather than the actual biological father. I think it may also be possible that some births are registered long after the actual birth.
So could it be possible that Mr "Mardgraves" was the biological father but the births were registered under Mr Ah Sing?
This leads me to a few other questions please ....
1. Why were these children on the state wards registers if they had mother and father? Had the parents died or split??
2. Was the date of George Henry's birth in the BMD register also 1888? Could the birth have been earlier than the registration?
3. Did you check any of his siblings' births in the Aust Birth Index? (If not I will do that when I can get to the library.) I would guess that birth dates in a state wards register might be less reliable.
4. I wonder whether Mr "Mardgraves" had any children in the birth index. Again I will check.
As you say, it's a big long shot, but I don't have any easy shots left, so it is definitely worth looking at further. I think it is doubtful I have Chinese heritage, but I think it would be rather fun if I did. Thanks a lot for your amazing detective work.
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Deb, I don't have Ancestry available at present, but Google searching found these two interesting pages:
A Roots Web page (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AUS-MELBOURNE/2006-05/1148733755) on Annie Margaret Nolan - showing her birth in County Monaghan, and shwing some of her children (though not George Henry Ernest).
A MyTrees.com page (http://www.mytrees.com/newanc/Ireland/Born-1830/Ha/Hargreaves-family/William-Hargreaves-mi002531-2837.html) showing birthdates for William Hargreaves and Annie.
Interesting to see if this William has any connection to the Hargraves family I already know about in Victoria.
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I have 2 sons.
Their father is 1/4 Burmese. He has black curly hair and olive skin and very is Australian looking.
One son has brown straight hair with brown eyes and looks just like me (I am as English as you can find).
The other son has blue eyes and brown curly hair and my face shape but he has Asian shaped eyes.
Their grandfather does not look very Asian either. He has Caucasian eyes, olive skin and had (its now grey) black hair.
I actually didn't know that my sons' great grandmother was Burmese until the Blue eyed boy was born and I questioned his eye lid shape.
So don't rule out the Chinese connection. The genes might just be recessive.
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I also have to add that NO white Caucasian woman in the late 1880's - early 1900's would give her children a Chinese surname unless they had a Chinese father.
The stigma of having a Chinese father was probably worse than being illegitimate.
So keep an open mind. Deb might have just found you an ancestry "gold mine"
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Hi Eric,
This is what I found on The Australian Birth Index:
It appears that William Hargraves and Annie Margaret Nolan had at least one child-
Laura Pearly Maude Myrtle Hargraves born Sale 1879, Reg No.25448 (Quite a name!)
Then managed to track down all the Ah Sing births:
Janet Eveline Ah Sing.
Father James Ah Sing/ Mother Annie Nolan.
Born Sale 1882 Reg No. 18687r
Ann Ah Sing (Annie Mabel on State Ward records).
Father Ah Sing Ah Sing/ Mother Ann Mary Nolan
Born Sale 1884 Reg No. 12475
James Albert Sing
Father James Sing/ Mother Anna Margaret Nolan
Born Sale 1885 Reg No. 28558
George Henry Ah Sing (George Henry Ernest on State Ward records).
Father Ah Sing Ah Sing/ Mother Annie Margaret Nolan
Born Sale 1888 Reg No. 6356
Charles John Reuben Ah Sing (John Charles Enben on State Ward records)
Father Ah Sing/ Mother Annie Marg. Nolan
Born Sale 1890 Reg No. 27212R
Lena Flor Gfrte Ah Sing (Lena Florence Gertrude on State Ward records)
Father James Ah Sing/ Mother Annie Margaret HARGRAVES
Born Sale 1892 Reg No. 7813R
Francis Ethelli Ah Sing (Frances Ethel Lilian on State Ward records)
Father Ah Sing Ah Sing/ Mother Annie M. HARGRAVES
Born Sale 1893 Reg No. 35038R
Interesting that Annie uses the surname HARGRAVES for the last two children. Quite compelling evidence that she is the same woman who married William Hargraves to
It would be wonderful if we could link William Hargraves to Francis Hargraves the policeman. It would then fit nicely if Francis and Mary then "fostered" young Ernest. Isn't it fun to hypothesise!
Deb
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It appears that William Hargraves and Annie Margaret Nolan had at least one child-
Laura Pearly Maude Myrtle Hargraves born Sale 1879, Reg No.25448 (Quite a name!)
Another with unknown father
NOLAN Edith Pollard
Father Unknown Mother Annie Margaret NOLAN
At Sale 1874 Reg#18706
On my resource...ancestry indexes are full of errors.
Marriage
HARDGRAVES William Born Monaghan
NOLAN Annie Margaret Born Queens County
1874 Reg#4292
Cando
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Thanks for that reminder, tedscout. I believe there are enough ancestors to make it unlikely that our grandfather was half Chinese, but that doesn't make it impossible, as you say.
Deb, thanks for that extra info. The MyTrees.com page shows William Hargreaves died in Victoria in 1914, and Annie died in Victoria in 1911. RootsWeb shows James Ah Sing (the father of the children) died in 1894 in Sale Victoria. So we have to assume William and Annie split up sometime around 1880, she never married Ah Sing, and when he died she was destitute, William wasn't around, and the children became state wards. Does that make sense?
If so, then George Henry Ernest's father was Ah Sing, unless he was born earlier than 1888, or there was a very irregular "menage a trois" going on, which I doubt.
A few things to check out there now, including trying to trace the key characters on electoral rolls, and trying to connect William Hargreaves with Francis Hargrave's family, perhaps in Ireland. Rootsweb says William Hargeaves was born in "Queens Country" (actually County, now called Laois) and Annie Nolan was born in Monaghan, and Francis' death certificate says he too was born in Monaghan, Ireland, so there may be a connection. But Queens County and Monaghan are not close, so there's some work to be done there.
Thanks again - I definitely have some work to do!
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Another with unknown father
NOLAN Edith Pollard
Father Unknown Mother Annie Margaret NOLAN
At Sale 1874 Reg#18706
Wow Cando, that is interesting! Certainly suggests she lived an interesting life, perhaps very poor, and entered into relationships with several men.
Marriage
HARDGRAVES William Born Monaghan
NOLAN Annie Margaret Born Queens County
1874 Reg#4292
And that is doubly interesting. RootsWeb had the opposite origins, but this info (where exactly did it come from?) puts William Hardgraves (sometimes spelt Hargreaves) and Francis Hargraves, who I know about, from the same County in Ireland. It may be the connection we need to link Ernest to Francis, who he later claimed as his father.
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There is another birth entry for Frances Ethel:
Frances Ethel Li HARGRAVES
Father Hargraves/ Mother Annie M Hargraves
Born Sale 1893 Reg No. 35038R (Same as before)
Take your pick who the father is!
Deb
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There is another birth entry for Frances Ethel:
Frances Ethel Li HARGRAVES
Father Hargraves/ Mother Annie M Hargraves
Born Sale 1893 Reg No. 35038R (Same as before)
Take your pick who the father is!
Deb
This continues to intrigue.
So where do the different entries come from? Is one the official births register, and one .... ?
Also, do you know why there are three entries in the states wards register?
I've got to go out now, but I will be following some of these things up, thanks!
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This morning I posted a shipping record - could this be a possible link? The record gives both as English and there was a column for Irish. :-\
Passenger details for those on the Donald McKay, arr Melbourne, Arr Dec 1865
Embarked at Liverpool, steerage passengers -
47193 Wm HARGRAVE, 22, Lab, English
Francis Do 20, " , English
So it would seem that this Francis arrived with a brother (possibly cousin) as the one ticket number includes both of them, ticketed to Melbourne.
Eric, the births quoted with a registration number (#xxxx) are derived from the Victorian Index for BMDs or the Australian Index. As they have a registration number they are dinky-di entries and the images can be downloaded from the Victorian website for about $20
Judith
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Another child for William and Annie:
John George HARGREAVE
Father William Hargreave/ Mother Ann Nolan
Born Sale 1875 Reg No.18938
As far as the entries go on the State Ward index, the first column is for surname and the last column is headed "see also". This is where the alternative surname is entered. So they are entered thus:
First column Ah Sing/ last column Espline + christian names.
First column Espline/ last column Hargraves + christian names.
First column Hargraves/ last column Ah Sing +christian names.
Deb
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There is another birth entry for Frances Ethel:
Frances Ethel Li HARGRAVES
Father Hargraves/ Mother Annie M Hargraves
Born Sale 1893 Reg No. 35038R (Same as before)
Take your pick who the father is!
Deb
This continues to intrigue.
So where do the different entries come from? Is one the official births register, and one .... ?
Also, do you know why there are three entries in the states wards register?
I've got to go out now, but I will be following some of these things up, thanks!
A birth can only be registered once but may have a number of transcribed entries on databases. There are not two birth registrations on the Victorian Registry database. The entry has been transcribed TWICE possibly because of confusion on the registration. The R suffix has no meaning if purchasing the certificate.
Cando
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There is a probate package for James Ah Sing see: http://prov.vic.gov.au/wills-and-probate
In the "VPRS_28_P0_LINK" file it says that James wanted any money remaining in his estate to go to the support and maintenance of "my seven children" - Janey, Annie, Albert, George, Henry, Lena, and Lily - Annie Hargraves being their mother - until the youngest of them reached the age of 21.
In addition - that the children were all in the care of the "Department for Neglected Children" and that Annie was a woman of "drunken habits and without means" - so that the department wanted to take the money directly for their maintenance.
"VPRS_7591_P2_LINK" contains the actual will.
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Also on the probate/will site - William Hargreaves d. in Sale in 1914 and leaves his money to daughter Myrtle Young (Laura Pearly Maude Myrtle Hargraves ?) - no mention of any other children.
Annie was also charged in 1891 with making a false statement when registering births (i.e. indicting that she was married to James when she was not):
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0wx6/
This article suggests that she had been living with James for 9 years (in 1891).
A potential for one of the Hargraves/Ah Sing boys is on the WWI records - lists himself as John Albert Hargraves, b. Balmoral, aged 33 years 2 months (as of September 1915). Says both parents dead, next of kin is a sister, T. J. Parker, of Sale.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/71665713
- John Albert's death notice only mentions sister Hannah Eliza Parker, and her kids - no mention of the other siblings.
Could this be "James Albert" and "Ann"/"Annie Mabel" - perhaps the kids were split up and only some of them managed to stay in touch.
Hopefully the records at the Victoria archives have some information about the fate of the children of Annie Nolan/Hargraves/Ah Sing.
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That's wonderful info from James Ah Sing's probate. Even if George Henry Ernest Hargraves/Ah Sing doesn't turn out to be Eric's man, it's a fascinating exercise delving into this family's story!
This is a likely possibilility for James Albert's death found on Australian death index:
Jas Albt Hargreaves
Died Kambruck, Victoria
Aged 14
Mother Annie Margt Hargreaves
1899 Reg No.1102
Also Myrtle (Pearly) Hargraves Death notice x 5 in the newspaper. See entries under YOUNG. She died 11/6/1947. There is reference to only one sibling, "Frederick".
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/22432650?searchTerm=%22%20annie%20hargraves%20%22%20&searchLimits=
Deb
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There's an "Ernest George Hargreaves" in WWI who could be "George Henry Ernest Hargraves/Ah Sing" - his brother is "R Hargreaves" (Reuben?). He was 28 in 1915 which matches pretty well with the other records. Sadly this man died in WWI. His brother, "R J Hargreaves", stated that their parents were deceased and he was the only remaining brother. :(
ETA: Ernest G. Hargreaves also has a probate file - there is a rather battered letter in it addressed to "Reub" and his brother is named as Reuben John Hargreaves
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I'm a little busy just now, but I'm clearly going to have to find some good time in the next few weeks to follow up all these leads, thank you. Here are a few thoughts from the recent comments:
Thanks jorose for all that useful information. The probate/will info on William Hargreaves seems certainly to be the same William, and Myrtle seems to confirm it. But one does wonder what happened to John George that he wasn't left any money - perhaps he had already died or was well enough off not to need any.
The court case re Annie giving false information was most interesting, revealing Ah Sing's age and origins, and his work as a gardener (presumably a market gardener). But I'm not sure if we can believe everything we read - if Annie was 27 as claimed in 1885, she was born in 1858 and her first marriage would have been at age 16 - doubtful as other information suggests she was born in 1854. But that Trove article is a goldmine, thanks.
But I don't think the John Albert Hargraves you mention can be one of Annie's children. He was born at Balmoral, on the other side of Victoria, and died in WW1, whereas other information suggests that our James Albert died in 1899.
Finally the info you give about Ernest George dying in WW1 seems to put an end to the possibility that this is the Ernest I am looking for. You have offered reasonable evidence that this is the son of Ah Sing, and my Ernest certainly didn't die in WW1. Useful and compelling evidence, but it may rule out this whole connection discovered by Deb. Still it had to be, and still has to be, fully checked out.
That's wonderful info from James Ah Sing's probate. Even if George Henry Ernest Hargraves/Ah Sing doesn't turn out to be Eric's man, it's a fascinating exercise delving into this family's story!
I certainly agree with you here, Deb. This story tells us a lot about life in the far-flung colonies in the nineteenth century, and if nothing else, shows how there could be other Ernests (or people with Ernest as a third name) hidden among the records just waiting to be found.
Thanks again everyone, I'll be back with news one way or another!
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Hi everyone, I have received my first ever photo of the mysterious Ernest Hargraves. It looks to me like he is about 30, but it is hard to tell. A photo doesn't help much in solving the mystery, but I thought I should at least share it for those who have helped me so much. Thanks again.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-oFy4PdHCvI0/UoxI9hWs4zI/AAAAAAAACiI/lrekinGsUms/s800/EHargraves.jpg)
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How exciting Eric :) What a good-looking man - thank you for sharing it with us.
I can see a strong family ressemblance ;D
cheers,
Ros
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Thank you for sharing with us the photograph of your Grandfather, Eric. You're so fortunate to finally see his image! It's obviously a studio portrait, any indications on the photo where it may have been taken or by whom? I agree he looks to be around thirty years old.
It's been wonderful sharing in your search.
Kind regards,
Deb
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Hi Ros & Deb
Yes he is a good looking man - I wonder why I didn't inherit any of that?? 8)
What I have is a copy of the original, so there is no indication on the back of the source. I have emailed my new aunt to ask if she knows when it was taken, but I thought she said it was while he was working as a cook at Jenolan Caves House - when he would have been closer to 40 than 30. So I'm not sure if that is right, unless he worked there at an earlier period than the one I know - he was working there prior to the marriage split. (Memo to self: I wonder whether Jenolan Caves House has any records of employees?)
I'm glad you can see the resemblance!! :D Of the two daughters I know, he looks more like my aunt than my mother, and I can actually see a little of me (when I was that age) in his jaw and mouth (or am I just imagining that?).
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Wow - very handsome, and smart as well. Wouldn't it be interesting to find a photo of the HARGRAVE/S family to compare.
So nice to know that you've a new aunt. ;D
Judith
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Hello Eric,
Firstly - I hope you are still interested in this feed and hopefully I can give you some more background. It seems we are related - ALONG WAY BACK.
My name is Henry (but everyone calls me Harry) Asgill-Tucker. My grandmother is Shirley, and she married an Englishman after whom I was named. My grandmother still lives in Harare, Zimbabwe where she moved with my grandfather from the UK. She had 2 sons (Steve Henry, and Simon (My dad). I was born there along with my brother and sister, but with all the grief of a few years ago we have now moved out Perth West Oz. Thanks to Granny registering my Dad as an Australia when he was born in Rhodesia.
My grandmother still has relatives who live in Sydney too - Del Grandes with whom I beleive she lived with in Bowral after her Dad ( I think your grandfather?) and her mother died. And I have met them but when I was a lot younger.
I hope that helps a little bit, and would love to hear more of what you have learnt. I have to admit I only googled my surname this morning as my brother said we are the only results in google thanks ot playing rugby at uni. But am now very keen to get searching into my family history.
I hope this finds you well.
Harry
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Harry, it is so exciting to hear from you. I think we are second cousins once removed if I understand these things.
Yes I am still very much interested in this discussion, just trying to find time to do some more research and follow up some of the good suggestions I have found here.
I have much to tell you. I think, if it is OK with you, I will contact you by personal message on this forum (you can find messages on the menu bar at the top) and we can catch up by PM or email, whichever is most convenient. When we have worked out any news, we can come back here and let the wonderfully helpful friends here know what we have found out.
Is that OK? Thanks, Eric
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How nice to find another new relative.
HAT1989 needs to make 3 posts before the PM system will work. They do not need to be long - just 2 messages!
Judith
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How nice to find another new relative.
HAT1989 needs to make 3 posts before the PM system will work. They do not need to be long - just 2 messages!
Judith
Thanks for that info Judith. Yes, this is the third new or long lost relative I have been in contact with in just over a month, it is all wonderful.
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Hi Eric,
wonderful news that you have found another new relative :)
I am fairly certain that you can send HAT1989 a personal message with your e-mail address. He won't be able to reply by PM until he has made another couple of posts (but he can reply by e-mail). Wellll it has worked for me. :D
cheers,
Ros
(welcome to rootschat HAT1989 :) :) )
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Hi Eric,
Such good fortune for you that Harry googled his name! :) He sounds like a lovely young man and a rugby player to boot :D
So happy for you that Harry has made contact, you'll have to buy more Christmas cards this year :)
Deb :) :)
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I am fairly certain that you can send HAT1989 a personal message with your e-mail address. He won't be able to reply by PM until he has made another couple of posts (but he can reply by e-mail).
Thanks, hopefully that will work. But if we work out any more genealogy info, I'll certainly let people here know.
He sounds like a lovely young man and a rugby player to boot :D
Poor Rugby players - they get caught in the bottom of rucks and mauls, and they become somebody to boot!! ;D But thanks for your thoughts.
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Hello everyone, I'm returning to this topic with a small request please. This is a photo of my grandfather, taken in the early to middle part of the 20th century at Jenolan Caves weir in NSW.
I'm wondering if anyone here knows enough about clothing fashions to guesstimate the approximate year the photo was taken, and whether we can say anything about the social position of either person by their clothing.
It's a long shot, but you never know! Thanks.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ip6K4Xm9OSs/VKpROcsPG2I/AAAAAAAADKo/DRin0sRRaf4/s800/EMcQHargraves%2520at%2520Jenolan%2520weir.jpg)
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Hello Eric,
May I suggest that you post the photo on the Photography board?
There are many RootsChatters who post there who should be able to help you with your request.
Dee :)
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OK thanks, I will.
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Hello everyone,
Several years ago I asked for help in searching for the ancestry of my grandfather, and received a lot of help here (thanks). I made some progress at that time, but was still a long way from an answer. I now have some useful information from DNA, and I thought I'd ask for any ideas on where to go from here please.
In summary, my grandfather Ernest McQuillan Hargraves said he was born in England and his parents were Francis Hargraves (a weaver) and Mary McQuillan. Birth date was uncertain, but probably around 1879. Extensive searching didn't find any record of his birth under that name, nor of any coupe of those names, in UK. The only couple of those names was located in Victoria, Australia, not England (they migrated from Ireland), and Francis was a policeman. This seemed promising, but I was forced to reject them as his parents because:
- They had the births of 9 children recorded, but none of them was Ernest, or could have been him under a different name (their subsequent lives could be traced).
- Their 9 children were born regularly 2-3 years apart, and while another pregnancy could be fitted in to a 2-3 year gap, it was doubtful.
- When Francis died in 1902, and Mary in 1909, their documentation included the same 9 children, but not Ernest. I could find no mention in any will or probate.
- If he was a regular, but undocumented, child, he had no reason to change some of the details of his parentage and birth.
I therefore surmised that he was born, perhaps in some unfortunate circumstances, and may have been informally adopted by Francis and Mary.
I now have DNA results from myself and two other descendants of Ernest, plus a descendant of Francis & Mary, and a descendant of one of Mary's sisters. These point strongly to Francis & Mary being his parents, and my analysis suggests that one of the following possibilities is the case:
1. Ernest was indeed descended from Francis and Mary, and there is some explanation for the four points above.
2. He was descended from siblings of both Francis and Mary, for example Francis or his brother with one of Mary's sisters. Descent from just one of Francis or Mary or siblings is insufficient to explain the DNA.
3. The DNA results are an anomaly, outside the range given by Blaine Bettinger's DNA studies (https://dna-explained.com/2017/09/21/shared-cm-project-2017-update-combined-chart/), and Ernest was a child of one of Mary's siblings.
I conclude that despite the doubts, option 1 is the most likely, and thus Francis and Mary are his parents. But this leaves me with no explanation for the four contrary facts, and, more importantly, no way I can see to investigate further other than wait and hope another DNA result comes in and offers some insight.
Does anyone have any ideas please?
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Is it not also possible that he was the winning one of mary.s elder daughters
To prove that you would have to find DNA 4-5yth generation that matched yourgeneration
Then find a tree where it says you are a match but doesn't Match any other you may have found the birth fathers family .
I explain it better with pictures
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Hi Brigidmac,
Thanks for offering your ideas, but can you explain a little more what you mean by this please: "Is it not also possible that he was the winning one of mary.s elder daughters "?
Thanks.
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Hi Eric,
Long time,no hear! I had to re read all the posts to refresh my memory and I can understand why Ernest's parentage is still a conundrum for you. Like you, I've also had my DNA tested since you last posted way back....mine through ancestry.com. Is it possible for you to reveal the number of centimorgans for all those tested who seem to share a relationship with you linking you via Ernest to Francis and Mary eg the centimorgans shared with the descendant of Mary's sister (and the relationship of that person to Mary's sister), the centimorgans shared with the descendant of Francis and Mary (as well as their relationship to Francis and Mary). Might just help to shine some light on the situation.
Deb
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Hi Deb,
Nice to hear from you again. Yes I went back over the whole discussion too, just to remind myself. It certainly was a very interesting roller coaster ride. Everyone was so helpful and I gained a lot from it all. In the intervening period, I have been trying to use the DNA information, with only small gains until recently when I made a really excellent connection.
Here are the characters in this little DNA drama (some have tested with FTDNA, some with Ancestry, and I have tested with both):
On my side there are me, my maternal cousin and my maternal (half) aunt (yes the aunt I found via this forum agreed to test!). Ernest is my aunt's father by his second marriage, and the grandfather of my cousin and I via his first marriage.
On the McQuillan side there are Francis & Mary's grandson and Mary's sister's Great grandson.
Here are the total cM, all taken from Gedmatch.
| Grandson | Great Grandson |
| Me | 352 | 0 (see note) |
| Cousin | 457 | 34 |
| Aunt | 1197 | 60 |
Note: I have several small segments in common with the Great Grandson, but the largest one is 4.9, which is below the threshold.
The key is the 1197 between my aunt and Francis & Mary's Grandson. This must mean cousins or close to that. I have looked at all the relationships on the Blaine Bettinger chart, including half relatives and doubles (where cousins marry or two brothers marry two sisters). I think I can summarise it this way:
Ernest's parents must be both Francis or his sibling and Mary or her sibling. Anything less than this just won't give that 1197 cM.
I only know of one possible sibling for Francis (he came out on the ship with William Hargrave, 2 years older than him) while Mary had 3 brothers and 4 sisters.
So that's what I have. Any comments will be welcome.
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There may have been another brother named Edward? Did you definitely establish that William was a brother?
Death
1910
#7743
HARGRAVES, Edwd
Father: Robt HARGRAVES
Mother: Bridt (Unknown)
Place of death: Ballt H [Ballarat Hospital]
Age 68
"....late of Ballarat, formerly of Clunes aged 70 years".
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/216377399
Debra :)
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Hi Debra, welcome back to the never-ending discussion! (Hopefully I will resolve it one day!)
That is a very interesting find, and in the right part of Victoria. I have searched Trove but not come across that, nor have I found it in Vic BDM and Ancestry, but I may not have looked for the right names.
And no, I haven't yet been able to establish William was his brother, could have been his cousin. This is a very useful lead. I will check it out, thank you so much.
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..... though, curiously, Francis' will wasn't granted probate until 1934, 32 years later.
Francis HARGRAVE. Date of grant: 20 Jul 1934; Date of death: 06 Jan 1902; Occupation: Ex Senior Constable; Residence: Bunyip.
Looking at electoral rolls I think that Francis' wife Mary and his brother Edward are at Bunyip in 1903 and 1906. Mary dies in 1909, Edward goes to the Ballarat Benevolent Asylum and dies there in 1910.
I do not see any obvious marriage or children for Edward.
Debra :)
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Hi Debra, I have been digging around a little today, finding out a little, but not much so far. Thanks so much for taking an interest.
Yes, I still don't know why probate took so long. He had no will, but still, 32 years is a long time.
And yes, Francis and Mary did go to live in Bunyip, but I thought it was their son Edward John (aged about 30) who was at Bunyip with them. Do you have anything to suggest it was Francis' brother (aged about 65)?
The death notice says Ballarat Hospital. What is the story with the Benevolent Asylum? Does this suggest he was poor, sick or mentally ill? (It also says "late of Clunes", which also suggests he was not at Bunyip.)
I too have found no family for Edward. The very impersonal wording of the death notice in the newspaper that you found suggests there may have been no family. I also haven't been able to find his ship travel information (unless he is the Edward McQuillan how travelled from Liverpool to Melbourne in 1857 when he was only about 15).
Thanks again for your information. Every little bit helps.
PS I found records of the Benevolent Society Asylum, and Edward Hargraves/Hargreaves is listed three times, with the correct parents listed twice. On one of the listings he is said to be a "wanderer" (presumably homeless, a hobo or swaggie) and on another from Clunes. I'm not sure yet why three entries, but I will follow up. So you have given me some valuable information there, thanks.
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Debra, that info on the Benevolent Society was a goldmine!
I found the records online, Edward was admitted three times, in 1904 and twice in 1906. The last time he stayed there until sent to the hospital in August 1910 and he died in September. He was listed as old and infirm.
He was the right Edward as his parents were Robert and Bridget. It says he came to the colony in 1890, and he was single with no children.
But if "colony" means Australia, not just Victoria, then he couldn't have been Ernest's father, as Ernest was born about 1879. So great information, but it looks like he's not the one I want after all. I'll try to confirm when he arrived by ship, and that should settle it.
Thanks again.
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Hi Debra, Deb, and others who have helped,
The mystery is finally solved, and so easily in the end. My grandfather Ernest was Edward Hargrave, 3rd child of Francis & Mary, and he changed his name about 1910.
We discussed this possibility way back. I said in reply #10:
"The only one who could possibly have changed his name to Ernest was Edward John, born 1875, and whose last record I could find was before the 1913 wedding, in 1909, when he is listed on the electoral rolls as a farmer. It isn't impossible that Edward John changed his name to Ernest McQuillan, gave up farming for cooking and dropped his age 5 years, then ran away with my grandmother to NSW, but I can't see any way to test that."
You may recall, Deb, that in #22 you found an Edward John Hargrave who enlisted, and was wounded, in WW1, and suggested this might have been "my" Edward, and I agreed. And therefore he couldn't have been Ernest, who didn't go to war.
But I was careless, and when I re-checked this identification, I found several reasons why "soldier Edward" couldn't have been "my" Edward:
- they were similar ages, but soldier Edward was 1 year older;
- they both were born in western Victoria, but soldier Edward was born in Maryborough whereas my Edward was born in Stawell;
- soldier Edward was CofE and my Edward was RC.
I can't believe now that I didn't read the documentation carefully enough to pick those things up, but I'm glad I didn't, because that meant the discussion on this thread continued and that meant I found out about my Aunt and obtained some critical information.
So now the evidence:
1. Ernest said his parents were Francis Hargrave & Mary McQuillan, and this is the only couple by this name I have found. He changed several details (birth place and date, Francis' occupation) but they are just red herrings.
2. The recent DNA information I outlined before indicates quite strongly that Ernest was the child of Francis & Mary. Some other combinations of the Hargraves and McQuillans are possible, but socially unlikely.
3. There are birth records for 9 children of Francis & Mary, and the same children are recorded on their death documentation. Ernest is not among them, but Edward is. The births are regularly spaced, and it seems unlikely that another child was born and not recorded. Thus Ernest may have been one of these children.
4. The other 3 boys' lives can be traced and they are clearly not Ernest. But Edward can be traced only until 1909. He is on the 1903 and 1906 electoral roles at Bunyip southeast of Melbourne with his mother Mary (after Francis died in 1902) and on his own on the 1909 roll (Mary died in 1909). But I can find nothing after that. The first I have certainly for Ernest is his marriage in 1913. So the two sets of information fit together.
(He is possibly on the electoral roll in Melbourne in 1912 - name is Ernest Hargreaves, different spelling, but he is listed as a cook, which was his later occupation. But there are 2 other Ernest Hargreaves around at the time, so this isn't certain.)
5. My aunt, who I found via this forum, told me Ernest's birthday was 15 August. And when I purchased Edward's birth documentation this morning, that was his birthday.
So the DNA, the birthday and the paper records all point to Edward leaving the Bunyip farm after his mother died, changing his name to Ernest (but keeping the same initial), becoming a cook and lowering his age, by 4 years at his first wedding and by 7 years at his second wedding (but keeping the same birthday).
I think that evidence is enough.
Thanks everyone for help over more than 3 years. I couldn't have done it without this forum.
Now I have one last question. Should I show him on my family tree under his birth name or the name he used for the second half of his life?
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Hi there - and congratulations on your success. My wife's great grandmother's second husband changed his name from "Alonzo" to "Alfred" when he moved to New Zealand from Australia - I have him in my tree as Alonzo, with Alfred in brackets.
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That's a good way to do it, thanks, but I need to show three changes - first name, second name and the s on the end of his surname. I guess I could show him as "Edward John Hargrave (Ernest McQuillan Hargraves)" but I don't think Ancestry could cope with that.
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You could put the second name in as a comment on his birth; or use the "also known as" fact on the Ancestry timeline.
Edited to add - I just tried the above "fact" - it's not very useful. Perhaps use a custom fact - call it "change of name" - you can put in a date, and place where this happened.
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Thanks John, I think the alternative name plus the custom fact is the way to go.
I've seen other advice on the web to use the birth name as the basis, but after some thought I have decided to use the name he was known by in later generations, who after all are the only ones going to search for him. I can't imaging many people searching for him under his birth name.
Thanks for your ideas.
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Hi Eric,
Well, how about that! So happy for you that this family mystery has now been resolved....to think he was sitting there under our noses that whole time! I wonder why he changed his name, I guess just one of those mysteries you'll never know the answer to. As far as what to call him, if it were me, I'd call him Edward, the name he was given, known as Ernest.
It's been fun sharing this journey with you...such a happy outcome AND you did get to connect with your Aunt.
All the best,
Deb
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Yes, it's been both frustrating AND fun. Thanks for all your encouragement. I really treasure getting to know my aunt, and without her telling me the birthday, and without my recent Ancestry DNA test, I never would have got here.
My guess is that the family had some rift - either to cause him to move away, or as a result. Certainly they all lost contact, and when Francis' assets were finally settled 32 years after he died, Ernest/Edward was not even mentioned, even though he should have been included.
That gives me an idea ..... I could claim ..... my share of that disbursement would have been ..... five eighths of diddly squat! :)
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A great outcome, and a great tribute to the quality of the research, for without a keen eye to the fine details needed to resolve this apparent dilemma, it would still be a dilemma.
Well Done,
five-eighths of diddly squat is better than eleventy-secondth place in the queue to the diddly squat's squat.
JM
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Thanks.