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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Nottinghamshire => Topic started by: ireneflora on Wednesday 15 January 14 22:26 GMT (UK)
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I've been researching this off and on for several years and I'm just not getting anywhere, so I'm really hoping someone with local knowledge might be able to help.
I have my grandmother's birth certificate saying she was born at 11 Hanley St., Nottingham on 18 Sept 1896, mother's name given as Mary Midworth, no father's name.
I can't find any evidence of Midworths living in Hanley St. Can anyone tell me whether there might have been a hospital or workhouse there?
I haven't found a baptism record.
By 1901 Alice 'Medworth' was living as a boarder with the Pickett family in Sibsey Northlands, Lincolnshire. I can find no connection between Picketts and Midworths/Medworths.
Does the term 'boarder' imply anything in particular when related to a young child? Is it likely that someone was paying the Pickett family to care for her? Did the Nottingham workhouse farm out children to families at that time, and if so would they have been likely to send one to Lincolnshire?
Although Midworth is an uncommon name I haven't been able to identify her mother Mary with any confidence.
I hope someone can help!
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
The address shown on the birth cert could be anybody's - relative/friend etc.
The 1891 has a Mary Midworth b 1868 Lincolnshire living in Notts
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Long shot time -- There are 2 spinster sisters Emily & Mary Midworth both b Notts - Mary was b 1859/60 according to her death reg in 1928 but 1871 shows birthyear 1854 and 1881 shows 1859. Parents were William & Sophia and she had a sister Alice
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Baptisms from Notts FHS CD
Mary Midworth 15.12. 1853 to William & Sophia, Ironfounder, Bridge St, Newark
Emily Midworth 14.8. 1852 to William & Sophia, Ironfounder, North St, Newark
other children baptised to them were
Sophia, Frances Ann, William, Richard Foster, John Thomas & Alice
all baptised at Newark St Marys
Carol
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Marriage
William Midworth married Sophia Foster at St Ann's North Collingham 17.12. 1846
Carol
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Hi CaroleW and Sunflower, thanks very much for your responses.
The Mary Midworth you've found - b 1853 in Newark on Trent to William and Sophia Midworth - is my favourite option for Alice's mother, but I can't find a way to prove it. And she would have been 43 at Alice's birth.
This Mary Midworth (1853) is a woman of mystery - she declared herself a spinster on every census return, yet she actually married Ernest William Noble in 1888 at Basford Registry Office, Nottingham. She was 35 and he was 20. They are not living together on any census, but he is named executor to her will in 1926. I believe they were still married at her death, as very shortly after that he remarried.
Most of my research has had to be done online so I haven't been able to see locally available documents. But if Alice was not a pauper's child then I wonder if there's a way of finding out who paid for her to live as a boarder with the Pickett family?
Any other good ideas?
Pat
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Hi
Do you have a copy of her Will, which name was on her death record, and who was the informant, and you could also check the Electoral Registers
Margp
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Hi MargP
Mary's will of 1926 gives her address as North Muskham, Notts, and I know she'd lived there since about 1900, initially with her father and sister Emily.
However she actually died (1928) at 29 Harcourt St, Newark on Trent - the death cert describes her as a spinster of independent means and the death was reported by a G Sellars.
Mary's will gives the address of Ernest William Noble as Thurlestone in Devon. The proceeds of her will were divided equally between Ernest Noble (who was a solicitor), the other executor Elizabeth Winter of North Muskham, and Mary's brother William Midworth.
I haven't used electoral rolls much - can I see them online somewhere? I would like to find out more about 11 Hanley St in Nottingham where Alice was born in case I can connect the occupants there to a particular Mary Midworth.
Thanks for your interest!
Pat
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Hi
I wonder if there's a way of finding out who paid for her to live as a boarder with the Pickett family?
No chance whatsoever as it would have been an informal arrangement between the 2 parties
If Mary Midworth married Ernest Noble in 1888 - providing he was Alice's father - she would have been legitimate and would have been registered as Noble - not Midworth
The latest census shows Ernest as unmarried - very strange set up. Ernest was the son of a clergyman
I haven't used electoral rolls much - can I see them online somewhere?
Not for that period - you would have to contact the Notts records office and they may look it up for you
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No chance whatsoever as it would have been an informal arrangement between the 2 parties
... Unless Ernest Noble was involved in making the arrangement - he was a solicitor.
In the 1891 census Ernest was living as a lodger with Benjamin Morton's family in Yorkshire, and Benjamin Morton was born in Sibsey, the small village in Lincolnshire where Alice fetched up as a boarder in 1901 aged 5. Proof of nothing, but an interesting connection.
Also I think that if Mary and Ernest decided to hide their marriage to the point that they told lies on every census return, and seemingly never lived together, they might choose not to reveal it on Alice's birth registration, especially if they knew they wouldn't keep the child.
What do you think? Did people often tell lies on official documents? Especially the son of a clergyman and the daughter of a church warden?
I really appreciate any and all suggestions
Pat
Pat
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Hi
Have you got the Will for Ernest, also I see that Alice is shown has a Niece on 1911 census. with a Jarvis family
Margp
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Hi Margo
Yes, Ernest Noble died in 1941 and left bequests to his brothers and sisters, with the residue to his second wife Marian, who registered the death.
Some time between 1901 and 1911 Alice was moved from the Picketts in Sibsey, Lincs to the Jarvis family in Markfield, Leics. She remembered travelling alone on the carriers cart. The Jarvis family called her their niece in the 1911 census but I haven't found any family connection.
Later on she did remember living at Sibsey as a young child, and even travelled back there many years later with my grandfather to try to find out more. But she believed the Picketts at Sibsey were her family, and I only found out long after she died that she is on the 1901 census as a boarder with them.
Apparently my uncle remembered Alice talking about getting letters from an 'Aunt Mary', in the 1920s I guess, until they stopped suddenly. I'd like to think that was really her mother and she knew what was happening in Alice's life.
I'd love to find something somewhere to identify her mother, or possibly even both parents if it was the couple we've been discussing. Even excluding some of the options, such as whether she was from the Nottingham workhouse or not, would be another step on the way.
Thanks for your time
Pat
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Hi Pat
I think that your last resort, is for the Electoral Registers, to see who was living at all the addresses you have found, the most important being 11 Hanley St Notts
Marg x
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I don't think the Nottingham WH features here. Even if Ernest Noble did draw up any formal agreement re: Alice - you would have your work cut out trying to find it.
I cannot understand why a legally married couple who had a child 8yrs after they married, would register the birth in her mothers maiden name and then farm the child out to somebody else.
Ernest was slightly under 21yrs old when they married - so surely parental consent would have been needed. ???
Who were the witnesses to the marriage?
I wonder why they couldn't keep the child? Both had funds and they would have had to pay for her keep anyway to the people looking after her.
All very odd ???
I would give the Notts RO a ring or email them re: looking up that address for you
0300 500 80 80 general enquiries
e-mail: archives@nottscc.gov.uk
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Perhaps Mary had an affair and Alice was not Ernest's child
Margp
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Ernest & Mary married 1888 but are not shown together on any census and Alice was born 1896
Mary is shown as Midworth and a spinster in 1891/1901/1911 and also on her will
Ernest is shown as unmarried on the same censuses
Ernest & Mary clearly still had contact as he was her executor so unless their marriage was dissolved or they divorced - none of it makes any sense
Was Ernest shown as a widower on his first marriage?
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I can imagine that Mary may have been pregnant and they married in a rush in 1888, then perhaps the baby died and they just decided to keep quiet about it. I've looked for a Midworth or Noble birth in that year and haven't found anything encouraging, but Mary's sister Sophia and her husband did register a baby that year, a boy with the middle name of Ernest.
Perhaps the age difference was embarrassing or there was family pressure to keep them apart. Perhaps Mary had to look after her father or Ernest was expected to go off and make a career for himself. But they certainly did keep in touch - he moved around a lot but she had his address when she wrote her will nearly forty years later.
Very frustrating. There must be something documented somewhere.
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Thanks MargP and CaroleW for your continued help here, it is really making me think through everything again.
CaroleW, you have given me a good nudge re Ernest's age at their marriage - I hadn't realised that Ernest would have needed permission as he was under 21. In fact neither of them told the truth about their ages on their marriage cert - he claimed to be 22 and she 23.
I've always assumed they married more or less in secret as Mary managed to keep up the pretence of being a spinster on subsequent census returns. If that's the case and they then regretted marrying, for whatever reason, you could understand that they might not want to tell their fathers that they had falsified information on an official register and married by licence in a Nottingham registry office. They must have agreed to keep it secret, and given that they kept in touch I think it would be reasonable to assume that if Mary Midworth (1853) is Alice's mother then Ernest is probably her father. It might have been even more difficult to tell the truth about being married eight years later.
The witnesses at the registry office were W Midworth - Mary's brother William I think - and Henry Stones, whom I don't know. Mary gave her address as Liddington St, Basford, so that's another one to check out on the electoral register.
Thanks very much for you advice about electoral registers, I'll get on to them as my next job. Will the Notts Record Office really do the look up for me?
Pat
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11 Hanley Street does not seem to have been a workhouse address.
In 1891 it was the residence of Alfred Thompson, 41, fish salesman, b Nottingham, and his family. Their servant was 18 yr old Emily Burrows b Eastwood.
RG12/2691/111/8.
However in 1901 there is a gap in the sequence of the odd numbered households between 7 Hanley St at RG13/3186/39/19 and 13 Hanley St at RG13/3186/39/20, so it may be worth investigating the possibility that 9 and 11 Hanley St had been converted to some sort of institutional use.
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Thanks avm228, that's useful. Perhaps the record office may be able to advise me on what happened there.
Pat
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11 Hanley Street Nottingham
I think the details for 11 Hanley Street are there in the 1901 census. If you put up the enumerator's page up for 7 Hanley Street and then follow onwards No. 9 is shown but the figure is part way across the schedule number. The number for the next house (11) is even less visible.
It looks to me that it was a lodging house. There are quite a lot a people living there without any signs that they are related.
Don't think I have explained that very well!!!
Eric
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Thanks for that Eric, perfectly explained!
And I see what you mean. It looks as though 11 people lived at 11 Hanley St in 1901, with only four having the same surname.
Nottingham Archives have been very helpful today in looking at who was at that address in the relevant year of 1896.
"We have checked the electoral registers for Hanley Street in 1896 in Sherwood Ward and no-one is registered at number 11.
Kelly’s Directory of Nottinghamshire 1895 has 11 Hanley Street: Bownes, Edwin, commercial traveller
Wright’s Directory of Nottingham 1898-9: 11 Hanley Street: Mrs Selina Parrott [matches the 1901 census]
The Wright’s directory of 1902 describes the address as apartments."
Unfortunately Edwin Bownes is not someone I have come across in the Midworth or Noble families. So no further forward.
If a pregnant woman was living alone in a lodging house in 1896 what would usually happen? Would she have the baby there, say with a midwife, or would she usually go to hospital - does anyone know?
Pat
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In the late 1940's, it was one of the neighbours who was sent for, and I think it was the same in the late 1800's, there was usually women in the area, who would attend the births, I don't think that there were any Midwives at that time
Margp
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Thanks MargP
And as she had an address - or at least gave one for the birth cert - she presumably wouldn't have had the baby at a charitable home or hospital?
I'm running out of ideas for finding evidence of the Mary Midworth who had this baby.
I've never found a baptism for Alice Mary Midworth (1896). Does anyone know of a good way to effectively search for baptisms over more than one county (i.e. Notts and Lincs), and covering non-conformist as well as CofE? - apparently during her childhhod in Sibsey Lincs the family she was with were Primitive Methodist.
Pat
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Hello Pat,
I too have a mysterious MIDWORTH - Frank H. MIDWORTH aged 18 in 1901, living in the household of Phillip COOPER in Hammersmith. In 1891 Philip COOPER has a son called Francis COOPER, aged 8. So it *looks* as if he changed his name. But why?
He married Ellen Florence FIELD in 1907 when aged 24.
This might be totally irrelevant to your query, but I'll have a look through my copious notes to see if I can find any clues for you - and I'd be grateful if you could keep a lookout for my Frank. It is such a rare name.
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Hi Jo, sorry I've just spotted this.
I've got a couple of Frank Midworths in my tree, but neither is the right age for you.
Frank Arnold Midworth (b 1906 in Staines, Middx) Father Rupert Midworth
Frank Crossley Midworth (b 1854 in Newark, Notts)
The name 'Cooper' isn't in my tree at all.
Sorry I can't be of more help at the moment.
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Irene, did you ever find anything? I've got Midworths in my tree, and they were very big cheeses indeed, who had a fair bit of clout, Mary's brother had an illegitimate daughter before he married Sophia and the child was baptised with both parents present and no bastardy bond issued, Ann, another sister appears to have committed suicide at Cromwell lock, but it didn't leak out into any papers. also be aware that the family seems to have originated in Eckington , then to Mansfield, Belper and Newark, and there are a lot of Marys
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Hi Jamila169, thanks for your post! I've not got any further with documentation so I'm trying DNA now, and I've had some interesting matches that I'm trying to confirm.
It's brilliant to find someone else researching the Midworths! The Mary Midworth I'm looking at was b 1853, the daughter of William and Sophia, i think you're probably talking about the previous generation? I didn't know that William had an illegitimate daughter before he married Sophia. I'd love to compare notes, especially about their big cheesiness, that sounds interesting. Is there any way we can do that?
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if You're on ancestry i can invite you, my interest in them is my GGgrandmother's brother married 2 Midworth women, one from the Mansfield line, and another from the Newark line, the Newark ones interest me because of knowing William Midworth's work , and the Mansfield ones because they have a street named after them
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here's some links about the family in general:
http://newarklocalhistory.org.uk/the-wellington-iron-foundry/
http://www.muskhamvale.org.uk/pdfs/midworth.pdf
http://ourmansfieldandarea.org.uk/page_id__575_path__0p2p32p21p22p19p.aspx - there's inaccuracies in the family details, in this, there was more than one child who married
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Thank you! I've not seen all those links before.
I've set up a public tree on Ancestry to help with potential DNA matches - it's called PMF FOR DNA. Most of the info I've gathered on the Midworths is on there. I'd love to see what you've found.
Have you done a DNA test by any chance?
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I've seen your tree and it's helped me a bit, but I think I've expanded on it especially the Mansfield and Eckington side. I have to keep my wits about me and I'm about to draw out a reminder tree to make sure I keep the right Sam, Joe or Bill attached to the right Liz, Ann or Mary because I'm at the point where it looks like a logic problem, i'll send you a link when I'm sure that everyones straight
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PS, not done DNA yet, I probably will because a good number of direct ancestors have travelled to the east midlands, and another chunk have been washing around the dukeries for centuries so will have links with all sorts of people, especially the yeoman/gentleman farmer types
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I'm glad my tree has given you some help, I'd like to see what you have on the Mansfield and Eckington side. Having extra generations is a big benefit when looking for DNA matches.
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Hi Jamila169, I'm just following up on some old posts and I wondered if you ever got your DNA test done? It would be good to know if we have a match!
I've had mine done at Ancestry and 23andMe, and I've put the results on GedMatch.
Best wishes
Pat
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Hey Pat, Ive just read through all the posts about the Midworth's. Very interesting. As A reminder, Sophia Midworth (1847-1926) and her husband John Hughes (1829-1908) were my GG Grandparents. Ive been on the hunt for information about these 2 for years as well.
Eric
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Hi Eric, good to hear from you, I've been watching your Ancestry tree growing!
I have one bit of extra evidence now to confirm Alice's mother is Mary Midworth b1853 (Sophia's sister). A cousin found Alice's baptism in Markfield Leicestershire in September 1906, where her mother is named as 'Mary Midworth, Markfield ex Muskham'. So that clinches it for me - Mary was living in North Muskham just outside Newark on Trent at the 1901 and 1911 census. Result!
However no father's name is given so there's more to do. But it does confirm that I'm your 3rd cousin once removed. I'll email you a copy of the baptism record if you'd like it.
Pat
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Yes i'd love to see it! Im glad you finally got some of the info you've been searching for. Im still on the hunt for info on the Midworth/Hughes side.
Eric