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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kincardineshire => Topic started by: wildcats13 on Saturday 25 January 14 06:51 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to trace the parents of my 3x Gr. Grandmother, Helen (Eleanor) Barclay, born in October 1782 in Tratown, Dunottar, Kincardine, Scotland. She married John Robbie (Robie) in about 1800, and in the 1841 and 1851 census, they were living at Barclay Street, Stonehaven, Kincardineshire. Helen died in November 1852 in Stonehaven, Fetteresso, Kincardine. I know I am lucky to have got back this far, but I am interested to see if she is connected to the Sir David Barclay line from that area.
Wildcats13
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I have been doing more checking and now I am not sure what year she was actually born. I can find no entries for both her birth and marriage on the OPR's on Scotland's People and other sites. Also I have tried to find the area of Tratown in Dunnottar for her birth, and I'm, not sure it actually existed.
Also on the 1841 Census, she was shown as being aged 55, which made her birth as about 1786. In her last Census in 1851, she was shown as widow aged 63 born in Dunnottar, which made her birth as about 1788.
Her husband John Robie joined the Royal Artillery Drivers in Aberdeen in 1801 and it is possible they were married about that time or just after as their son was born in 1804 in either Scotland or England, as it appears he was moved around a bit and Helen & son went as well according to when he was discharged in 1819 in Woolwich, Kent..
Hope it all helps in solving the problem.
Regards,
Wildcats13
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Hi Wildcats,
Just a suggestion.
Don't know your source for Tratown...If this has been transcribed from old records could it be Crawton?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawton
Sounds an interesting place.
Hope this is of help.
Looby :)
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Thanks for that.
I think you are right as Crawton is only a short walk from Stonehaven where they lived after they married and he returned from the army in 1819. It was probably only a transcript error. I now just need to find her birth and marriage details, which has been very difficult so far. There doesn't appear to be any records on the OPR's at Scotland's People, and not sure where to go to now.
If she was born in Crawton, she would have been a home birth, so her family must have lived in one of the few cottages in the fishing village before they all later moved to Stonehaven. I wonder whether there is a list anywhere of the villagers living there during the late 1700's. Any ideas greatly received
Regards,
Wildcats13
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From the Register of St James's Episcopal Church in Stonehaven:
Robie/ Barclay: Octr 4th 1801 Married John Robie, Servt to Sir George Ogilvy, and Helen Barclay in Links of Arduthie
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Just curious, which "Sir David Barclay" are you referring to?
Regards
Malky
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Links of Arduthie is the original name for the land on which was built the New Town of Stonehaven (in Fetteresso parish), separated from the Old Town (Dunnottar parish) by the River Carron.
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Thanks for the marriage details,but I find it hard to believe that he was a servant of Sir George Ogilvy as he lived 1634-1679. Maybe it was a descendant of Sir George who was also named George.
Re Sir David Barclay: I am not sure which one it was, but thought he lived in the same time frame, and I can find no birth details for Helen. There maybe no connection whatever, just a thought.
Wildcats 13
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I was wondering whether you could send a copy of the Marriage entry for John Robie/Helen Barclay in 1801.
Also I am a bit confused with the age of Helen when they married. According to the 1841 Census, she was the same age as John at 55 years, ie; born about 1782.
In 1851 after John had died, she was shown as age 63, ie; born 1788, which would mean she was only 13 years old when married. Would this have been acceptable in those days?. Also John had enlisted in the army seven months earlier.
I have found a birth for Helen Barclay on 13 October 1788 in St Cyrus, Kincardine with parents as David Barclay and Catherine Barclay.
She had one child in 1804, but no further children.
penny for your thoughts.
Wildcats13
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What is your source for Helen's death?
In the 1841 census ages were rounded down to the nearest 5 years, so age 55 could be 55-59. But if Helen was 63 in 1851, she should have been 53 in 1841. Maybe she wasn't sure of her exact age, or lied about it on one or more occasions.
Up until 1929 girls could marry at 12 and boys at 14 with consent, but they were usually older.
If she married in the Episcopal church, perhaps she was also baptised there?
Entries in the London Gazette re Sir George Ogilvy suggest it is possible John was indeed servant to him, in the sense that he served under him in the Militia, perhaps.
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Hi,
I had a wee look at this couple on the census. On the 1841 John (down as a hand loom weaver) and Helen look to be living in with the Gleggs have you found any connection to this family? On the 1851 Helen (down as a spinner) is living with her grandson John Robbie- according to the census born 1827 in Arbroath - I'm presuming you have his birth to Amelia Simson and John Robbie in Arbroath in 1826?.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBCQ-XP1
I can't seem to find him or his parents on the 41? Did Helen and John only have the one son?
Jen
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The source for Helen's death is from previous family efforts.
Death date was 3 November 1852 in Crawton, Kincardineshire. This lines up with her Will which I have and is dated 7th December 1852.
Her grandson, who was with her in 1851 census, John Simpson Robbie, married that year and arrived in Australia in 1855.
John S Robbie's father, John Robbie was married to Amelia Simpson in 1825, enlisted in the 25th Regiment of Foot in 1826 and was medically discharged in 1837, and died in 1838.
Amelia died a few years after the birth, possibly from compilcations.
if the 1788 birth is correct, then Helen was born in St Cyrus, Kincardineshire.
The mention of John being a servant to Sir George Ogilvy now makes a bit of sense, as he joined the army 7 months before marrying.
There is no family connection with the Gleggs in the census.
Wildcats13
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The 1851 census shows Helen as born in Dunnottar parish. St Cyrus parish (aka Ecclesgreig) is Kincardineshire's southernmost coastal parish. However, looking at the Ordnance Survey name books on ScotlandsPlaces I came across Straton school, erected by the owner of Kirkside, which is in St Cyrus parish, just north of Montrose, and was also known as Straton. To me at least, Straton sounds more like Tratown than Crawton does, even allowing for the local tendency to pronounce "aw" as "ah". In 1789 a David Barclay was the tenant of Hill of Morphie, a small farm in that area.
If Helen was born in St Cyrus parish and moved to Dunnottar as a small child, she would not necessarily have known/remembered.
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You may have seen this already but just in case...
1841 census there's a John Robbie age 15 living with the Barclay family at Tullynessle in Aberdeenshire. James Barclay (housepainter) is head of the family and on the 1851 census his birth place is showing as Stonehaven.
Can I just recap all these John Robbies have got my head nipping...
Father
John Robbie the weaver was never a solider and can be found on the 41 census with wife Helen.
Son
John Robbie was in the army died before the 41 census - partner Amelia Simson
Grandson
John Robbie born Arbroath 1826, was listed as a grocer on the 51 census - marries Ann Ballintyne in Glasgow 1852 - they have a son (John Ballintyne Robbie) born Perthshire in 1853. He may be showing with the Barclays in 1841 and is with his granny in 1851.
Just for background:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=630912.0
Jen
Edit :
On Freecen John (the Father) is down as a weaver and pensioner so he too must have been in army?
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Recapping your recap;
Father:
John Robbie was born in 1782 in Old Machar, married Helen Barclay on 4 October 1801 in St James Episcopel Church, Stonehaven, joined the Royal Artillery Drivers in April 1801 in Aberdeen, discharged in January 1819 with pension. They provided paid passage for him, his wife and child back to Scotland from Woolwich where he was discharged. Returned to live in Barclay Street, Stonehaven and became a hand loom weaver, and died on 23rd July 1849 in Stonehaven.
Son:
John Robbie was born on 9 September 1804 in St Leonards, Colchester, Essex, England, while father was stationed there with the Army. He married Amelia Simson/Simpson on 28 September 1825 in Arbroath, Forfar. He enlisted in the 25th Regiment of Foot on the 10 February 1826 at Montrose. He was medically discharged in 1837, and died in a St Clements Infirmary on 21st August 1838. There was only one child, who was born 21 July 1826. Amelia died on 11 May 1831 in Old Deer, Buchan.
Grandson:
John Simpson Robbie was born 21 July 1826 in Arbroath, Forfar, and believe that after Amelia died in 1831 when he was 5, and because his father was stuck in the army, that the grand-parents then looked after him. Although he was not with them in 1841 census, I did find a John Robbie aged 15, born Angus, working as Ag. Labourer on Cortachy & Clova, which may very well be him. When he married Ann Ballantyne in 1852, he was shown as a Prison Warder. They travelled to Australia in 1855 with their son John Ballantyne Robbie and settled in Bombala, NSW and had a further 10 children.
I have the army records for both Father and Son.
With regards to Helen, the Family Search record of her birth showed she was christened at St Cyrus on 13 October 1788 but doesn't show birth & birthplace details. You could be right regarding Straton, as the info I first had was Trawton, but could find no such location, and after a search of the area on a map, felt that it may have only been a transcription error and should have been Crawton as it was closeby.
Also I made a mistake with her death detail as she died (I assume at home) in Stonehaven and not Crawton as I had indicated. (it was late at night and tried to work from memory, sorry). I am not sure where the date for her death came from, but it is possible that John Simpson Robbie may have had it recorded in his diary as I have heard through the family that he had one. Also, he probably would not have left for Australia until she had died, and her Will & Testament is dated December 1852. I cannot find any official record of her death with the normal rescources available from here. In Scotlands People, her death is in neither Pre1855 or Post 1855.
Hope all the above makes sense, and would love to still find confirmation of Helen's correct birth & death details. Interesting about the age of consent for marriage up to 1929. Maybe the fact that she was only 16 when their son was born had an affect on having more children. Who knows.
Regards,
Wildcats13
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Hi,
On the 1851 census there's a John Robie living at 56 High Street, Montrose born around 1804 occupation stableman. He looks like he's with a (new?) young wife age 26...have you eliminated him as the John Robie who deserted? I notice the John who deserted was born in Arbroath and according to his army records his occupation was a groom.
Seems someone has gone a fair bit of work on this family - posting with the usual health warning!
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=robbie-misc&id=I12
Jen
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The details on the attached link you sent, are basically what I emailed to Ken Doig earlier this year.
With regard to the John Robie from Montrose, I had looked at him early in the piece, but later information showed that our John was born in St Leonard, Colchester, where his father was stationed in the area at the time and had married quarters.
After finding John was medically discharged, and considering his overall health condition, I did not think he would last long. If he had survived longer, I would have expected him to find his son. However I think he would have been too embarrassed about his situation as he had spent over 11 years in the army, disgraced because of the desertions, and had no pension to show for his time there, and on top of that he had lost his wife, so I wasn't surprised to find his death details a year after his discharge.
Wildcats13
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Might be able to help here .... I have been researching my family tree as I am descended from George Barclay, who was the younger brother of the Helen Barclay you might be looking at. There's probably three different Barclay families living in St. Cyrus in the eighteenth century who were probably off-shoots from the main family Barclay family. Here's what I know of this family -
EARLIEST GENERATION
The earliest members of the family that can be traced reliably are George Barclay and Isabel Thomson. They have a family headstone at St. Cyrus Nether Churchyard which was then re-used by their descendents for over 100 years. George Barclay is likely to have been the boy recorded as being baptised at St. Cyrus on December 16th 1716, the son of Alexander Barclay of “Comistoun”. Isabel Thomson’s birth cannot be traced with any real certainty.
George Barclay and Isabel Thomson were married on 9th June 1743 in the old church at Benholm, near Johnshaven, in Kincardineshire. The family stone at St. Cyrus Nether Churchyard states the family were sub-tenants (tenant farmers) at “Dubton of Comostoun”. This farm is spelled as “Comostoun”, “Comistoun” or “Comieston” over time. The modern day “Commieston” is just off the main road between the river North Esk and St. Cyrus.
The gravestone is dated 1782. The reverse is highly decorated with a carving of a set square and dividers, hammer and plough. The plough is a reference to his profession as a farmer. The other symbols are Masonic. This, and the accompanying inscription, would indicate that he was a highly religious man and a freemason. The stone would have been expensive. The late eighteenth century was a time of relative prosperity for Scottish tenant farmers and a gravestone of this quality shows that the family must have been financially comfortable.
The inscription reads as follows:
“When first I drew the breath of life I nothing knew at all yet Long before my death I knew That I with Adam fell my body lays neer to this stone Waiting the morning call When Christ will take me by the hand: he is my all and all.”
There are nine sets of initials on the headstone. These may refer to their children. George Barclay and Isabel Thomson had a large family. There are baptisms recorded at St. Cyrus for at least five of them; Alexander (b. 1748), Katharine (b. 1750), John (b. 1753), James (b. 1756) and David (b. 1758).
NEXT GENERATION: David and Catherine Barclay
David Barclay, son of George Barclay and Isabel Thomson, was born on 9th April 1758. David married Catherine (or Katherine) Barclay at St. Cyrus on December 23rd 1786. The marriage entry seems to imply Catherine’s maiden name was also Barclay.
David and Catherine Barclay lived and farmed at the “Hill of Morphy”. There are surviving tax records for the farm from this period. David Barclay paid 2 shillings for “Cart Tax” in 1786 and 1790. He had two horses and paid 4 shillings and sixpence in “Farm Horse Tax” in 1797. The Hill of Morphie was (and still is) a farm settlement to the south-west of St. Cyrus. It is very close to Commieston.
The couple produced a large family, with baptisms being recorded at St. Cyrus for at least seven of their children; David (b. 1787), Helen (b. 1788) Susanna (b. 1790), Catherine (b. 1792), Agnes (b. 1794), George (b. 1796) and Margaret (b. 1800).
There are no details of the deaths of David or Catherine Barclay. As I said, I am definitely descended from George (b. 1796) as he is also buried in the same family plot at St. Cyrus and the family re-used the headstone when he died in the 1860s. If you want a copy of a picture of the Barclay headstone let me know and I can send it to you.
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Just another thought for you - the census records from that period are all over the place when it comes to exact ages. The pre-census birth records from St. Cyrus Old Parish Records that are on Scotlandspeople are probably the most accurate source you will find for someone born or married in the St. Cyrus area of Kincardineshire at in the late eighteenth century. I found that the later Victorian census / death records do not exactly match these in all cases - ages can be several years out and names can be spelled in any number of different ways. The 1841 census is particularly confusing as people rounded their ages to the nearest five years.
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Hello wildcats13,
Re: 1841 Census.
Enumerators were instructed to round down the ages of persons 15 years or over to the nearest 5 years, e.g. age 28 down to 25, age 63 down to 60. As 'Isabel H' has posted, Helen could be any age from 55 - 59 years.
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?1262
Hope the above link helps.
Regards, Dod.