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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: LindeL on Tuesday 13 May 14 14:44 BST (UK)
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William Gilmour apothecary in Liverpool South Dispensary; anyone know what townland he was from? said also to have a brother an apothecary in Liverpool workhouse. Is his name known?
From Coleraine Chronicle 1844
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From Coleraine Chronicle 1844
What was the content of that article (eg) death notice or other?
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No. not a death notice; it was just a filler couple of lines, with the net effect of congratulating the family (Or Garvagh!?) on producing two apothecaries at that time. I suppose maybe the second one William had just been appointed and was going to be joining his brother in Liverpool
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So there is no birthyear and no name for his brother. Gilmour can also be transcribed as Gilmore.
We don't know if he was in England (Lancs) in 1851 and there is no William Gilm** fitting his occ in Liverpool.
What is your connection to him?
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I have several Gilmour/ Gilmore ancestors from townlands in the Garvagh area; my great great grandmother and great great great grandmothers were both Gilmours, from different families I think, marrying two Toye men, father and son, from Cullyrammer. I noticed the newspaper item while scanning the Coleraine Chronicle for other names and posted here in hopes that someone would have an idea where they were from
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It would seem that from 1815, all apothecaries wanting to practice in England had to be licensed and Guildhall Library, London contains indexes for "A list of persons who have obtained certificates of their fitness to practise as apothecaries from August 1, 1815 to July 31, 1840", but don't know if such index would state where they were from (assuming they even gained their certificates in that timescale). The also hold other Apothecary records.
See:
http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/apoths.htm
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Check this 1851 Liverpool Workhouse transcript...it has a William Gilmoss ? , aged 31, a Chemist/Druggist born Ireland and also a James Gilmour aged 35 Surgeon, also born Ireland....wonder if it might just be the brothers in question:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jeanmccarthy36/1851%20Liverpool/1851_g_h_i_j/1851_gilmor.htm
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Yes it very well could be; well done for tracing them with such limited information; I think you've found them!
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Hi LindeL, I would be very interested in viewing the Coleraine chronical, is this available to view online?
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Not as far as I know; I have been looking at a microfilm in the National Library of Ireland, which has a good run of the issues from 1843 I think
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William Gilmour apothecary in Liverpool South Dispensary; anyone know what townland he was from? said also to have a brother an apothecary in Liverpool workhouse. Is his name known?
From Coleraine Chronicle 1844
I struggled for years to figure out both the identity of William Gilmour's brother in Liverpool and their relationship to other Gilmours in the area before finding the answer.
The 'brother' is James Gilmour (c1814-1860), son of James Gilmore & Mary Anderson (Gilmores of Inchaleen).
Londonderry Sentinel, 15 Dec.1838: On the 28th ult., at Garvagh, by the Rev. Mitchell Smyth, James Gilmour, surgeon, to Eleanor Maria, daughter of the late Rev. G. Herbert, P.C., of Almuck, and graddaughter of the late Rev. E. Herbert, Rector of Llanfairfechan, Carnarvonshire, North Wales.
Coleraine Chronicle, 4 May 1844: Garvagh- We have much pleasure in stating that Mr. W. Gilmour, of this town, has been appointed Apothecary to the Liverpool South Dispensary. Mr. Gilmour’s brother was, a few weeks since, appointed to the same office in Liverpool Workhouse.
Coleraine Chronicle, 3 Nov.1860: At Liverpool, on the 27th ult., James Gilmour, Esq., M.D., of 10 Upper Parliament Street.
North Wales Chronicle, Sat. 10 Nov.1860: MELANCHOLY DEATH OF DR. GILMOUR, OF LIVERPOOL.- We have to record, under the most painful circumstances, the death of Dr. James Gilmour, general practitioner, of No. 19, Upper Parliament-street, Liverpool, and son-in-law of the late Rev. Mr. Herbert, Amlwch. A few days ago, the deceased left home for the purpose of paying his professional visits, and was no more seen alive by his friends. On Saturday afternoon, his body was found in the water at the Traddord Dockgates. Soon after it was recognised. An inquest was held, and a verdict of “Found Drowned” returned. The deceased had a patient on board a vessel, and it is supposed that, in either going or coming from the ship he missed his footing and fell into the water.- Daily Post
Now, this James Gilmour did have a brother William... but not in Liverpool. William Gilmour (c1806-1881), woollen draper, m. Elizabeth Smith.
So, I think the Chronicle has assumed that 2 local Gilmours both in Liverpool in similar jobs would automatically be brothers (I've found this to happen before when researching a Chronicle funeral notice).
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Many thanks Aghadowey for this salutary lesson in family reconstruction! So easy to make assumptions, in the 1800s obviously just as easily as now! I'll have another look at these people with your new material to make it clearer. Thanks again
LindeL
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Aghadowey, these Gilmours of Inchaleen are clearly related to my gt gt gt grandfather John Gilmour of Inchaleen, who died in 1847 I believe. Is the Dr James Gilmore a brother or a nephew? I know you have these families at your fingertips!
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John Gilmore (c1789-1847) and Dr. James Gilmour of Liverpool were brothers.
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Aghadowey, many thanks for confirming this link. I had a James as my John's brother; great to have more details now to fill out one more branch of the tree. I appreciate the assistance!
LindeL
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Hello again Aghadowey and other Gilmour researchers! thanks again for the extra information about the Gilmours. I haven't dared start too much work on the Gilmours (so complicated) and I did not have the name of the wife of James Gilmour of Inchaleen; when I found her as Mary Anderson, I just this morning googled "Anderson" and "Inchaleen" and found a Findagrave site for a grave in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. It is the grave of a James Gilmour from Inchaleen, clearly a brother of the surgeon in Liverpool? and there is a bit of fascinating extra family tradition. It says his mother was Mary Anderson right enough, and adds that she was known as "Lady Mary of Inchaleen"! What the people in Pennsylvania came to believe was that she was a member of the Scotish nobility, but knowing Ulster, I rather suspect that "Lady Mary of Inchaleen" might not have been a real title and in fact might have been a rather derogatory description! like "Lady Muck of Clabberhill", if any of you know that insulting phrase! Anyway it adds an interesting new bit of information to the family tree. Thanks again
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Now I am wondering how come there are supposed to be two Gilmours, sons of James and Mary Anderson? The James who died in Cumberland Count and the Dr James of Liverpool. I knew the Gilmours would be complex!
Not unheard of for two marriages in two generations between people of the same names; the second generation being cousins?
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Will have to take a look at this when I get a chance to dig out my notes.
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I didn't see the programme Who do you think you are? last night, and can't access it on iPlayer, being out of the UK, but I gather that the subject who appeared last night, Ferne Cotton descends from Dr William Gilmore from Garvagh who went to Liverpool. Did anyone see the programme? or are any of you locally involved in the research that underlies the production? I'd be intrigued to know if there are any details that would make it clearer how her Gilmore might relate to my/ our doctor James Gilmour
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There are some interesting details at https://www.thegenealogist.co.uk/featuredarticles/2017/who-do-you-think-you-are/fearne-cotton-616/
but not clear how he relates to other Garvagh Gilmours/ Gilmores
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More about these Gilmours. I am not sure they make sense to me in the current state of my knowledge. I need help!
From the British Newspapers Archive index to inter alia the Coleraine Chronicle; in 1852, William Gilmour in Garvagh took delivery of a crate of hats; clearly thus there was a woollen draper in Garvagh, as we already knew. In 1853, Dr William Gilmour/ Gilmore from his temporary residence in Portstewart came to give a learned medical lecture in Garvagh; clearly the doctor from Liverpool, whose descendant appeared on television last week. Dr William Gilmour's wife had a baby at Portstewart in 1856
In 1849 Robert Gilmour of Garvagh at age 60 ruling elder in First Garvagh died. In 1857, interestingly at the Crescent, Portstewart, Martha, widow of the late Robert Gilmour of Garvagh, died; presumably the widow of the ruling elder. And crucially, in the Freeman's Journal article and not for some reason in the published transcript of the Coleraine Chronicle , it says mother of "dr Gilmour of LIverpool". But which Dr Gilmour? I would say likely she was living with her son Dr William Gilmour in Portstewart, a year later than his baby was born there. But had he gone back to Liverpool, or is the article ignoring him, and referring to the other Gilmour doctor in LIverpool, who never left Liverpool? James was definitely there in 1857 when he was elected surgeon-accoucheur to the Ladies Charity hospital and he died there in 1860.
Now the plot thickens. In 1855 died Robert Gilmour of Inchaleen, aged 83. Of which Robert Gilmour was Martha the widow? Could be either. The Chronicle MIGHT have said "Garvagh" for either of them; most likely the ruling elder, but not certainly.
William Gilmour the hat salesman is in the Inchaleen family, according to Aghadowey (who knows most about the Gilmours), and she argues that the two doctors in Liverpool are not brothers, though the Chronicle says they are. I think there may be another way to reconstruct the families. here is another theory! I think the two medical men William and James are indeed brothers, sons of Robert and Martha Gilmore of Garvagh (I don't know why Martha is said to be mother of just one Liverpool doctor, but that's another day's work). According to Aghadowey, William the hat salesman is brother of my ancestor John Gilmore/ Gilmour, and John is said to be son of James Gilmour of Inchaleen and his wife Mary Anderson. If this is the case, then, the James Gilmour who died in Cumberland county PA may be another brother. SO that there seems to have been two Robert Gilmours around Garvaghin the 1840s, and two sets of brothers called William and James, all contemporaries