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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ross & Cromarty => Topic started by: fred2derf on Friday 06 June 14 05:21 BST (UK)
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1841
Piece 80 Folio 4 Page 12
Registration District: Rosemarkie
Civil Parish: Rosemarkie
County: Ross and Cromarty
ED: 1
Address: Castle Street
WATSON Bernard W M 39 Officer
WATSON Ann F 39 Midwife
WATSON Christy F 13
WATSON James M 12
WATSON Ann F 9
WATSON Alexr M 7
WATSON Jean P F 3
All born in county
1861
Registration District: Rosemarkie
Civil Parish: Rosemarkie
County: Ross and Cromarty
ED: 1A
Page 9
Address: Ivy Cottage
Bernard Watson Head 59
Ann Watson Wife 59
Anne Watson 27
Jeanie Watson 22
Harriet M Diamond 3
George Hall 32 Teacher Jedburgh
I'd like a look up please for Bernard and family in 1851 and if daughter Jean is not with them then a look up for her also in 1851.
Also looking for George HALL in 1851 and 1841. According from his death reg in Australia his father is Robert but I'm not sure how accurate that would be if the informant didn't know his mother's name. It's not a certificate on my list to purchase so I'll do what I can to fill gaps without it. George is listed as 54 on the 1883 shipping record and 83 in 1911 when he died.
George HALL & Jennie P. WATSON
Marriage 8 Aug 1867 Rosemarkie, Ross and Cromarty
Thanks,
Fred
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1851
South Castle Street, Rosemarkie
Bernard W Watson, 49, letter carrier, b. Fortrose
Ann, 49, mid wife, b. Rosemarkie
Christina, 25, dressmaker, b. Fortrose
Ann, 19, miliner. b. do
Alexander, 17, scholar at the Academy, b. do
Jane P? Watson, 12, at school, b. do
Gadget
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Hello Gadget,
Thank you very much.
I'm still looking for George.
Fred
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I had a look for George but none really fitted the 1861 one. The nearest was a teacher of music b. England. What was his father's occupation on the marriage cert? If they married in Scotland, it would give both parents' names.
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Hello Gadget,
I don't have a copy of the marriage yet. I've been looking at the birth/baptism records on SP and FS and have found two only:
George born 1 Feb 1829 Crailing
- parents Thomas Hall & Jane Laidlaw
George born 28 May 1826 Castleton
- parents Thomas Hall & Agness Ingles
But here is one George, a shepherd, aged 22 in 1851 - parents Andrew & Helen. He appears in 1861 married and still a shepherd so he is ruled out.
There does not seem to be one who fits in 1841 and 1851.
Fred
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Hi Fred
Only about 30% of the OPR Baptisms have survived so he might not show. I've checked the marriage cert.
Robert Hall was a builder. I think I might have found a 'mortality record' for a Robert Hall in Jedburgh on 19 Jan 1841:
Robert Hall, plasterer, abode - Jedburgh. Aged 46. Cause - decline.
I'm still looking for his mother - a Margaret Hallans(?)
Gadget
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Some possibles for Robert and Margaret for you to consider in Northumberland:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JS2Q-DB1 - father was George!
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NK1X-N51
Jedburgh is very much a Borders town and, being a builder/plaster, Robert could well have moved about.
Gadget
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Hello Gadget,
Thank you very much.
I have found an Obituary that has the following:
...
The late Mr. Hall was born in Gallashiels, Scotland, in 1828, and was the eldest son of Mr. Robert Hall, head of the firm of Robert Hall and Sons, Builders and Architects. He married in 1866, Jeanie Pratt, daughter of Bernard Watson, of Fortrose. He was educated at Edinburgh University, and was Rector of Ayr (Scotland) Academy for some years previous to coming to Brisbane, ...
Fred
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No sign of a birth/baptism record for a George HALL with father = Robert in Scotland 1826 - 1834.
Fred
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Hi Fred
There is a will and a letter of declinature on Scotlands People for a Robert Hall, Builder, residing at Galashiels, both dated 19 march 1865. Jedburgh Sheriff court. These would be 10 credits each.
Not found a death cert for him so far. Maybe he died away from Selkirk/Roxburgh.
Not found him so far in 1861 in the area.
Gadget
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Found him :)
1861
43 Island St, Galashiels
Robert Hall, 59, master builder employing 96 men an 15 Apprentices, b. Lilliesleaf, Rox
Flora, 53,
Thomas L, s, 22
J? N?, 20
Agnes F, 12
Jemmima, 10
Betsey Lees, 22
Betsy Brockie, 19
It might be that this was a second marriage, given the age gap of children.
Will investigate further.
Gadget
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1851
Island St, Galashiels
Robert Hall, 48, Builder employing 28 masons 14 carpenters and 15 labourers, b. Lilliesleaf, Rox
Flora, 43,
Thomas S, 12
Joana, 10
Robert, 6
Adam, 4
Agnes F, 2
Margaret Mather, 18
George Buchan, 17
In 1841
Island or Halls Place, Galashiels
Robert Hall, 35, builder
Flora, 30
Thomas, 2
Joanna, 6 mths
All b. county
I noticed that a Thomas Hall was a witness at George's marriage.
Gadget
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Baptism, Melrose, 8 March 1839
Thomas Hall, s/o Robert Hall and Florence Sanderson
I'm wondering about the Margaret, mother of George. George would have been born about 10 years before Thomas and does not appear on the 1841 with the family, when he would have been 12.
Gadget
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Marriage, Melrose 9 June 1836
Robert Hall of Melrose and Flora Sanderson of Galashiels. No mention of Robert being a widower.
I;ve not found a previous marriage of a Robert Hall to a Margaret.
George might have been baptised under his mother's MN - attached:
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Hello Gadget,
Thank you very much for taking the time to look further.
I have 18 credits left so I'll wait a bit longer before deciding how to use them.
It does seem Robert married twice. The obituary says George was the eldest son. Pity George can't be found in earlier years.
Regards,
Fred
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Hi Fred
have you considered that George might have been the illegitimate son of Robert :-\ He would still probably have been the elderst son.
If we could find a death cert, it might give some further clues.
Gadget
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Found the death - 17 November 1863 at Island Street, Ladhope. Aged 61.
His father was Thomas and mother was Agnes Stirling.
No mention of a wife other than Flora Sanderson. Informant was his son Thomas.
(Eldest son named after father :-\ )
This leads me to suspect that George was possibly illegitimate. If there is no mention of George in the Will or in the letter of declinature, this might be more evidence.
I think you might have to top up your credits.
Gadget
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Hello Gadget,
Thank you very much.
I'll see what direction the A$ is heading. :) The Australian banks add 3% for currency conversion that is done automatically by a computer program. Billion dollar profits from all the fees and charges.
Further evidence is that there was no mother named on George's death reg. If George was illegitimate could there be a record under his mother's name? Could he be using that name in 1841 and 1851 census? Would he need to be baptised eventually to use the name HALL when he married?
I'm not as familiar with the situation in Scotland as I am with that in England. I have a branch of my tree in Gloucestershire 1838-1850 where I have an illegitimate son of parents who were both illegitimate. One was baptised at age 9 and another at 15. That took a lot of sorting out but I did find the right birth and marriage reg and I ordered copies from GRO.
Fred
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Hi Fred :)
I've had a good search for a baptism for him as just 'George' no surname in some of the border counties around his approx birthdate but nothing so far. His marriage cert has his mother as Margaret (Hollans) but the surname could be made up. His baptism might be one of the missing ones. There might be something in the Kirk Sessions minutes but which parish? It could be a one of a number in the broad Jedburgh area :-\
If he was educated at Edinburgh University, there might well be some alumni records. Someone would have had to pay fees. However, the info from his obituary would have been what he'd told his family and you are really looking for proof :-\
I think the will, etc. might be the best way to go. I'll keep looking for a poss on the 1851.
Gadget
PS - there is a family surnamed Hollands in Jedburgh on the 1851. There's a George b.c 1830, shoemaker but he's still there is 1861. It might be worth checking on the Hollands (variations) in the area.
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Looks interesting ~
1841
Nisbet Mill, Crailing
In the household of David Walker, farmer
Margaret Hollands, 35-39, female servant, b. Roxburghshire
Crailing is reasonably close to Jedburgh, Ancrum and Galashiels, all places that he said he was born.
No sign of a George, though, who would have been 12.
Gadget
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Hello Gadget,
Many thanks.
I used 10 credits and got the first 2 of 43 pages of Robert's Will and they contained nothing of any use.
Fred.
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Hi Fred
If you had had a bit more time/patience and had flicked through further you would see that the inventory ends and a testament/will follows. (I flicked through to the end of the inventory - I didn't bother reading it - and it only took a few minutes). The 10 credits is for the whole 43 pages.
A Trust is set up consisting of his wife Flora Sanderson, his son Thomas and others. In it he mentions 'my said eldest son Thomas Sanderson Hall...... pay over to my son George Hall at present a teacher in Fortrose the sum of three hundred pounds sterling ................ residue .... ....divide ..... equally amongst my lawful children : the said Thomas Sanderson Robert Adam Joanna Agnes Flora and Jemima Catherine'.
To me, this is very strong evidence that although George is recognised as a son, he is not listed as a 'lawful' child - i.e. he was illegitimate. His son Thomas is regarded as his eldest lawful son.
There might be further mention of George but I've not read it all.
Gadget
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A Codicil at the end instructing his Trustees not to pay George Hall the three hundred pounds as he'd already been given it. Got to go so haven't read it all. Will so when I get back.
Gadget
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I've skim read all of the will now. It seems that George was given £300 before Robert died and was excluded from any other share of the estate.
I've also found young George in 1841 with Robert's parents!
Galashiels Island or Halls Place,Melrose - same address as Robert's - see Reply #10 and #11
Thomas Hall, 60, Mason (journeyman), 60
Agness, 60
William, 35, Mason (journeyman)
Euphema, 25
George, 12
All b. Roxburghshire
Gadget
PS George also mentioned in the Post Office Directory (4th entry on page) :
http://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/pageturner.cfm?id=85190979&mode=transcription
and on page 39 of same directory:
Hall, George, rector, Grammar School — house, 3 Barns street
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Someone else from Aus looking for same family - unless you're Dave:
http://www.forum.familyhistory.uk.com/showthread.php?t=25961
(last posting is wrong, I think)
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Hello Gadget,
Thank you very much.
I didn't see any way to get past page two. It said something to the effect that you have to pay for other pages that have not been viewed. That was the first Will I've attempted to get from SP. It was not that I lacked the time or the patience.
Regards,
Fred
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Hi Fred
If you only had 2 pages, you must have misread it or there was some mistake. If you go back into SP, click on 'Viewed Images' - top left of page- then select the will.
You will see 'View Page after (Paid)' - e.g. below. Flick through until you come to the end of the inventory . There are 43 pages for the 10 credits.
Gadget
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Hello Gadget,
Thank you very much.
For security reasons I have ActiveX and Java both disabled so I use direct download method and I found I had two pages. I noticed the message "You may be charged for other pages if you have not viewed them before." but missed the box with "View Page After (Paid)" so now I have seen page 43.
Regards,
Fred
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Fred and Gadget
Thank you for answering where George fitted into the Hall family. Thomas and Agnes (Stirling) were Robert's parents. I have searched for George on and off over the years as I thought he may have been a nephew or illegit son of William who was still living at home in 1841. Never thought he belonged to Robert. I'm descended through Robert's brother John and my family is also in Australia.
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I am interested to find out if anyone knows anything about Harriet M (Matilda) Diamond the 3 year old on the record, she is somehow connected to the Stuart family of Fortrose, who are part of my family.
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Hi
I've not looked at this thread for 4 years so am a bit rusty. I will read it through and try to answer your question.
Gadget
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Hi again
The 1871 census has her born Ireland.
Her death registration of 1910, Rosemarkie. gives her parents as D. Diamond (colour sergant) and Christina Diamond nee Watson. Both were deceased. Her Uncle ?? Stuart of Fortrose was the informant.
I can't decipher the initials of the uncle Stuart.
I assume that that was the connection. I'll see if I can find a link between the families.
I've attached a snip of the signature to see if you might be able to decipher.
Gadget
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The same person (Stuart) was the informant on Christina Diamond ms Watson's death cert - he is described as Brother in Law so assume he might be the brother/step of Sgt Diamond.
Gadget
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Now thinking that the Stuart link could be via Christina's mother - maiden name was Ann Hossack.
Gadget
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Thanks, it is John MacIntosh Stuart, in his will he names her as a niece and she is also with them in the census records as shop assistant, they had shops in Fortrose and on the valuation rolls for a few years she seems to be in Ivy Cottage, Fortrose. I need to do a bit more research into her family.
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The signature on Christina's death cert is clearer it could well be J Mc Stuart.
What was his wife's surname?
Gadget
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Think you’re the on the right track, his wife was Eleanor Watson Dick Grey
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I see on the 1891 census that Christina is an Innkeeper:
The Shore, Rosemarkie
Christina Diamond, widow, 60, innkeeper, b. R &C
Alice, daughter, 24, milliner, b. England
Gadget
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In case it's of interest:
1871 William Street, Kensington
RG10/33/106/10
Dominick, Diamond, 50, Commission Agent, b. Ireland, Clare
Christiana, 41, b. Scotland
James F, 12, b. Hampshire
Alice, 7, b. Surrey
Amelia, 3, b.Middlesex
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In 1861 they are in St Margarets, Westminster
with them is Alexander Watson, brother in law, 28, gardener, b. Scotland
RG9/55/118/17
Gadget