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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Northumberland => England => Northumberland Lookup Requests => Topic started by: maddys52 on Wednesday 02 July 14 03:47 BST (UK)
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Trying to track down 1841 and 1851 census for family of Thomas (Mortimer?) Walters born 1840 Newcastle upon Tyne, mother Jane, father Thomas Walters (married at Liverpool 1838).
Thanks
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat, their is this possible 1841:-
Thomas Walters 30 occ ? Dealer Not born in county
Jane 25 b Ireland
Thomas 9 months Not born in county
Residing with an Elizabeth & Wm Parker in Hanover Street, Sheffield
Census Ref HO107/1333/ 8/45 / 40
Keyboard86
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Son Horatio Rowley Walters born 1842 B M D records Oct 1842 Chorlton Lancashire
He is in the 1851 census with his Uncle George McMaster aged 37 born Ireland ( mothers brother ) and aunt Jani McMaster aged 30 Horatio Watters ..aged 9 yrs at Toxteth Park St James Lancashire
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:) That's a great find, cannot locate in 1861 readily but in 1871 Horatio R Walters 28 occ Master Mariner b Manchester is married to a Mary Jane 30 with 3 month old Florence M both born Liverpool residing at Stanhope Street, Toxteth Park
Census ref RG10/3794/14/21
Keyboard86
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Yes having the same problem on 1861 census parents married 1838 Liverpool hard to make out but think Thomas Walters who married Jane McMaster was a Tailor ? his father occupation was upholster :)
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Maddy do you have Thomas in other census forms ? this chap is hard to find ???
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Thanks all for helping so quickly!
I know Thomas (b 1840) moved to Australia before 1864. On his marriage certificate he has his father Thomas occupation as draper.
According to parents' marriage cert (1838, Liverpool), Thomas Walters (father also Thomas) and Jane Mcmaster (father Andrew) were both born c1817. Thomas lists his residence a "Liverpool, Lancaster, Chester", and Jane's is "Liverpool".
Thomas Mortimer Walters died 1844 Chorlton, Lancashire - I thought this was the grandfather, but maybe the father? (So many Thomas Walters!)
Didn't know about the brother - but Thomas' (in Australia) first child was named Horatio (died an infant) and a later son John Rowley.
I have a reference to a Thomas Walters age 11 at Newcastle upon Tyne in the 1851 census, but I'm not sure who else is in the household. (Also Thomas Waters age 1 at Newcastle upon Tyne in 1841 census?).
thanks again, Maddys52
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Hi again, the 1851 Thomas was born Woolwich, Kent HO107/2406/307/24 Plus wrong parents, the Thomas WATERS b Northumberland parents Thomas & Margaret HO107/848/ 6/11 / 15
Keyboard86
PS Wish I could read the first part of the occupation in the 1841 I posted!?
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Thanks Keyboard,
Your 1841 find sounds likely - especially if Jane is from Ireland as suggested by brother George in 1851 census - although I don't know what they'd be doing in Sheffield?
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Hi Maddy did Thomas go to Queensland a record for Thomas Walters aged 23 birth about 1840 ....place of origin Newcastle ..Ship Wansfield ...port of departure Liverpool ..arrived Queensland 8th Sept 1863
Keyboard I could not make out occupation also for Thomas just dealer ?? but wife Jane born Scotland .... :)
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Is that your relation on the electoral rolls in Queensland Thomas Mortimer Walters ?
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Looks like Horatio has been a bad boy
Horatio Walters aged 38 born Manchester Lancashire address Her Majesty's convict prison Portland Dorset .....Occupation merchant seaman ( married )
Registration district Weymouth
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Here are the census for his wife Horatio's wife Mary Jane Walters ( Rudd ) in 1881 aged 38 married born Liverpool residing 27,Chester Street Toxteth Park ..occupation lodging housekeeper
Mother Elizabeth Rudd aged 63 born Ireland
Daughter Florence M Walters aged 10 born Liverpool
Lodgers George G Fraser 75, Henry Reilly 37
1891 census
Mary Jane Walters living St James Place Toxteth Park married living on own means with daughter Florence M Walters
1901
Census
Mary Jane Walters aged 58 ( widow ) with daughter Florence Sarsfield 24, grandson William H Sarsfield still in Toxeth Park
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Looks like Horatio ended up in Queensland also
Probate records Horatio Walters of Bald-Hills Brisbane Queensland died 6th April1901 at sea
Administration London 13th November to Mary Jane Walters widow effects £69 0s 2d
Probate date 13/11/1902
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat, their is this possible 1841:-
Thomas Walters 30 occ ? Dealer Not born in county
Jane 25 b Ireland
Thomas 9 months Not born in county
Residing with an Elizabeth & Wm Parker in Hanover Street, Sheffield
Census Ref HO107/1333/ 8/45 / 40
Keyboard86
One site goes for Scotland the other Ireland, but if Scotland then with magnification it could be Shawl Dealer?
Keyboard86
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Oh ! they like to make things difficult Keyboard ???
Marriage for Horatio Walters 21/5/1868 Saint Brides Church Parish of Liverpool occupation master mariner ...residence at time of marriage 117 app Pitt Street father Thomas Walters deceased occupation draper ......married Mary Jane Rudd her residence 4,Dexter Street her father Thomas Rudd deceased ( carpenter ) witness George McMasters and Jane Simpson ?
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Horatio was in prison for murder convicted of manslaughter 27/11/1874 sentenced to 15 years
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Is this possible ? could he have been down as his middle name ???
1851 census Church Street Civil Parish Bilston
James Penrose 45, schoolmaster wife Eliza Penrose son William Penrose
Edward Rush 28 servant
Joseph Price 13, pupil , Thomas Price 11, pupil , Joseph Churchill 10. pupil. John Hosten 10 pupil
Mortimer Walters 11 ( nephew ) born Manchester Lancashire ........
Mary Whitehouse , Mary Williams , Eliza pruden all servants
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Just found a marriage for James Penrose to Eliza Walters 26 November 1831 at St Martins Warwickshire Birmingham ???
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You guys are amazing!
Pretty sure Thomas (b 1840) came to Australia on the Wansfell in 1863, and met his wife Ann Reid on the same boat, although she's not listed until the 1865 trip, but they were definitely married 28 May 1864 - there's some crossing out and confusion on the top of the page of the register, so I think the 2 trips passenger lists may have been a bit mixed up? He went on to be a successful building contractor and elected to Brisbane City Council, but died just a few months later aged 38 in 1878. It's his son Thomas Mortimer Walters who's on the electoral role.
Just found that George Mcmaster married Jane Simpson in 1821 in West Derby, fits with the witnesses for Horatio's marriage. (Love finding out more than just the names, so interested in the stories! Thanks for the info about Horatio.)
Still wondering what's happened to Jane Walters nee Mcmaster? I have a suspicion she may have come to Australia too, there is a reference in newspaper to Thomas' "distressed wife and mother" when he seems to go awol for a bit in 1867, but it's a bit ambiguous.
Would most like to know where Thomas Walters snr and Jane Mcmaster were born so that I can continue the search.
Thanks for all your help!
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Hi Maddy just found you a marriage 2/8/1860 St Brides Liverpool Jane Walters ( listed as Walker ) widow hard to make out the address but think its Harrow on the hill London ...married George Hugh Fishley ( mariner ) her father Andrew McMasters ( deceased ) witness George McMaster her brother the other witness hard to make out Anne Demptser ?
What makes you think his mother went to Australia ?? and wonder how the children were not with her in the census forms ? :)
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Re Horatio there are a huge number of articles about the case of Horatio in the British Newspaper Archive. The case is also recorded on Old Bailey Online which you can view for free. "Recommended to mercy by the jury, considering the very difficult position he found himself, with so utterly inefficient a crew and many of his acts of violence being committed under provocation - Fifteen years penal servitude"
It also says that another indictment was not proceeded with.
There are also articles from 1881 in the newspaper archive re petitions for his release.
William
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Hi Maddy think the marriage for George McMasters to Jane Simpson was 25/7/1846 Walton on the hill Lancaster ....There is a tree with this information also photo of his grave stone they have his father Andrew McMaster born about 1770 died 9th November 1840 at Confeacle Parish Co Armagh mother Mary death 23 May 1818 same place ..They had son John McMasters born 1808 Confeacle Parish he died Liverpool ..Jane McMasters 1810 , George McMaster 1813 ,William McMasters born 1818 ...quite a gap between births so I would think there would be more all these family died in Liverpool.... maybe give you something to go on but should check out first as trees are not always accurate
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Queensland Government Gazettes
George Hugh Fishley late of Bald Hills near Brisbane ( gentleman ) died 13th May 1900 Jane Fishley widow of deceased ...Will dated 8/2/1900
Don't know if this is her possible Mrs J Fishley port of Departure Brisbane port of arrival Sydney date 24/1/1878 ship Brisbane
Australian electoral rolls 1903 .1905 Jane Fishley Bald Hills ( domestic duties )
Australian Death Index
Jane Fishley died 2/7/1907 Queensland father George McMasters ( wrong name )
Registration year 1907 place Queensland
Registration number b008221 page 8217 :D :D
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Thank you all again!
I did a double take when I saw George Hugh Fishley's name - just checking through some old notes I realised that he is buried in the same grave as Thomas Mortimer Walters (b1840) in Toowong Cemetery Brisbane, along with Thomas' wife Ann Walters (nee Reid) and Jane Fishley (died 4/7/1907 but age unknown) - couldn't figure out the connection at the time. But the death registration for Jane Fishley does say her father's name was George McMaster, maybe a mistake?
The only hint that I had that Jane may have come to Australia was in an article in "The Argus", Melbourne newspaper 14/11/1867 asking Thomas to contact his "distressed wife and mother".
Thanks too William for the link to the British Newspaper Archive and Old Bailey - will definitely follow up.
Thanks also Rosie for the info about the McMasters tree! Definitely a place to start.
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Thanks Rosie, we were posting about the Fishleys at the same time!
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Just checking my old notes again, Thomas died on board the " City of Brisbane" and now I notice that Mrs Fishley was on the ship with Thomas when he died - left Sydney 25/1/1878 and arrived Brisbane 27/1/1878.
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Hi Maddy at least we are going in the right direction do you have a date of birth for George as I think somewhere a long the line it said he was born 1839 ???mistake somewhere ?
Going by who we think was Thomas down as Mortimer living with James Penrose and Eliza Penrose ,who happens to be Eliza Walters her marriage in 1831 in Birmingham there is a birth in 1805 in Bilston for this Eliza parents Thomas Walters mother Fanny... His occupation is either clother or clothes ? they also had a Thomas born 1806 just a thought
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So it was her then :) :)
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Hi Rosie, Thomas and Jane's ages at their marriage in 1838 was 21 (pretty sure), so the Thomas born 1806 at Bilston would probably be out by about 10 years, a bit too much I think?
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Yes your right was not thinking there ::) ::)
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Is this possible ? could he have been down as his middle name ???
1851 census Church Street Civil Parish Bilston
James Penrose 45, schoolmaster wife Eliza Penrose son William Penrose
Edward Rush 28 servant
Joseph Price 13, pupil , Thomas Price 11, pupil , Joseph Churchill 10. pupil. John Hosten 10 pupil
Mortimer Walters 11 ( nephew ) born Manchester Lancashire ........
Mary Whitehouse , Mary Williams , Eliza pruden all servants
Hi Rosie,
Just wondering if the 1851 census for the Penrose's gives the place of birth and age for Eliza? Am assuming it was near Bilston - is this correct?
(Interesting too - I think they had a daughter Mary Jane b 1835 who married their servant Edward Rush in 1855.)
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Hi Maddy
Gives birth year of Eliza as 1805 Bilston Staffordshire and James 1806 Sedgly Staffordshire :) :)
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Thanks again Rosie!
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Just wondering if it would be possible to check 1861 census for James Walters b 1813, Bilston listed as "brother" at All Saints Northampton? Wondering who else is in the house with him, if he's the brother of Thomas and Eliza (parents Thomas and Fanny - haven't quite given up on them yet), might show whether he's my Thomas or not?
Thanks in advance.
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Hi Maddy
1861 census All Saints Northampton
Joseph Walters Head married aged 39 occupation Hatter ?born Bilston
Elizabeth Walters wife aged 38
Susannah Walters brothers wife aged 46
James Walters brother occupation Baker born Bilston
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Hi Maddy ....what do you think of this I found a baptism for William Mortimer Walters 1792 at St Mary the Virgin Stanwell Middlesex parents Valentine Walters and Mary Walters maybe just a coincidence with the Mortimer name ( but not many about so far )
Valentine and Mary Walters had several children as follows
William Mortimer Walters baptism 24/8/1783 ( this one must have died )
Sarah Walters baptism 20/7/1777 ( died )
Ann Walters baptism 23/1/1779
Sarah Walters baptism 23/6/1781
Thomas Walters baptism 5/6/1785
Joseph Walters baptism 1787
Elizabeth Walters baptism 22/12/1789
Ester Walters baptism 1796
Elizabeth Walters baptism 27/12/1789
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Thankyou so much Rosie, those do look interesting - certainly worth following up, Thomas looks about the right age to be father of Thomas who married Jane (again, so many Thomas's!).
I got a bit excited last night when I found a reference (just using familysearch) to Thomas Walters jnr b 1774, died 1815 Liverpool, occ Linen Draper, but couldn't find any more details. Of course that death date seems a bit early, but then I wondered if another pair of eyes on the marriage of Thomas Walters and Jane Mcmaster in 1838 might produce different ages for them? Also wondered if the death of Thomas Mortimer Walters at Chorlton in 1844 might have some further info?
Hope I'm not asking too much,
thanks again!
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Yes that what I thought will see what I can find on them I think you should maybe try and get a copy for the death for Thomas Mortimer Walters 1844 to see if it is Jane McMasters husband or his father ....I think it is more likely to be his father as why would she wait until 1860 before marrying again ....So where are they in 1851,1861? ::) ::)
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Thanks Rosie,
Been without my computer for a few days, went through withdrawal symptoms! I've done some double checking and realised that the info I was given about Thomas and Jane's ages at their marriage actually came from the marriage banns which as I understand only says if a person is over 21 - so they weren't necessarily 21 in 1838. Also tried to find when Jane and George Hugh Fishley arrived in Australia, but couldn't find it easily. I found a reference to George's applying for a hotel licence in Brisbane in March 1865, so must have been very close to Thomas' arrival in 1863. George apparently was a crewman on the Wansfell, and named his hotel the Wansfell.
I was wondering if it would be possible to try to locate Jane Fishley (Walters, Mcmaster) in the 1861 census, and whether my Thomas might be with her? I think there's a reference to George Fishley as being at sea.
thanks again for all your help, would never have made the Fishley connection without you!
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Hi Maddy
I am having the same problem trying to find them in 1861 census still looking ...can't seem to find immigration records for Jane also ...not seeing Horatio either in 1861 ..will keep looking :) :)
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Don't know if you seen this Probate and administration 1908 Brisbane Courier
Jane Fishley Bald Hills widow ..to Samuel Unwin Bald Hills dairyman and W T Attow Brisbane solicitor , Realty and personally £1103.
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Thanks Rosie,
Actually hadn't seen that one! I have found a copy of George Fishley's who must have left some property to Horatio Rowley, as well as Jane. Horatio's then went to his wife in England. So interesting!
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Hi Maddy came across this one Jane Walters head widow b Ireland 1811 ..lodging house keeper at St Pancras London ,Mary Macklin born 1824 London and her daughter Jane M Macklin born 1849 London in 1851 census
Also Jane Walters b1821 Ireland working as a cook in St Thomas Liverpool ??
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Thanks Rosie, they both sound possible, going now on their ages (if it's them) in the 1841 census that keyboard found in Sheffield, Jane would be born about 1816 - 5 years either way, so could be either, although it's a bit of a hike to London from the north (my geography's not great)? I'm really intrigued now what happened to this family, presumably father dies, and children seem to split up from each other and from mother, although they all end up together again in Australia. Curiouser and curiouser. :)
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Did you get a copy of the death certificate for Thomas Walters ? what bugs me is where are they in 1861 census ....If that is Jane working as a cook in Liverpool maybe that is how the boys are with relatives ....Was there an age for George Fishley on the grave stone as I am not having much luck this end ....What year was he running the Hotel so we can work out when they arrived in Australia ?
Rosie
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Hi Rosie,
Haven't got the certificate yet, hopefully soon. Unfortunately no age given on the grave for George or Jane, but he definitely advertised in The Brisbane Courier that he applied for the hotel license on 17 March 1865. I've tried to find them on a passenger list but no luck so far. George's death registration does say his mother's name is Rosette, unfortunately no father's name.
Thanks again for taking the time to help me!
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of course, I've just done a check and found a George Hugh Fishley born in Jamaica 1806 (F: George, M: Margaret) and a George Hugh Fishley who had a few children with a Rosetta in Jamaica in the 1820-1830s (though no Georges as far as I can see). Also looks like a George Hugh Fishley who also owned quite a few slaves in Jamaica. And a George Fishley b 1826 in Jamaica who was in the UK merchant navy 1845-1854. Nothing's ever straight forward in family history!
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Hi Maddy I also looked at that and thought hmmm maybe we should look further in to this ? ..Oh they don't make it easy ??? ???
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Found out Thomas Mortimer Walters who died in 1844 was 38 yrs old, so born c1806, a fair bet he was Jane's husband. (Also fits with Thomas and Fanny's Thomas b 1806 - I think I will go back to try to find out more about them.)
So I guess Thomas and Jane marry in 1838 in Liverpool, Thomas jnr is born in 1840 in Newcastle upon Tyne, they are in Sheffield in 1841 (maybe), Horatio is born in Chorlton in 1842, and Thomas dies in 1844 in Chorlton. In 1851, Jane is (maybe) a cook in Liverpool, Thomas is with his aunt in Bilston and Horatio is with his uncle in Liverpool. Jane gets married again in 1860 in Liverpool to George Fishley who's a crew man on the Wansfell. Maybe Horatio is at sea in 1861. Can't find any reference to Jane, George (maybe at sea) or Thomas in 1861, but somewhere between 1860 and 1864 Jane, George and Thomas all go to Australia, although probably not together as Thomas seems to be alone on the passenger list for the Wansfell in 1863. Phew! Thank you so much - that's a lot more than I knew a few weeks ago.
I also stumbled across a reference to a Valentin Walters b 1752 in Aylsham - I have no idea how common the name was, but would be about the right age to marry Mary and have those children including Thomas in 1785, although Norfolk is a bit of a way from Middlesex (again geography not my strength).
Thanks again for all your help Rosie!
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That's great news Maddy all fitting into place now just need to find them in 1861 census yes I also seen that record for Valentine ...Wonder where the Mortimer fits in will keep looking :)
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Still not sure if it's the right family, but have found out that a Valentine Walters married Mary Mortimer in 1774 at Gloucester, just the right time to have their bunch of children at Middlesex: William Mortimer and Thomas et al. I really don't know how much families travelled around in those times? Is it likely to marry in Gloucester and have a family in Middlesex, then one of the sons move to Staffordshire? (My Essex ancestors seem a lot more stable and stationary!). Nice coincidence in names though ... I'll keep hunting :)
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Hello Maddy - I am a descendant of Jane McMaster, thru her son Thomas Mortimer Walters, who married Jane Reed (Rieid) in Rockahampton. Growing up in melbourne, Ann Walters, 5th? child of thomas and Ann was my great aunt. I now believe she was my grandmother.
I have read a few of your posts, but have not found your interest in the Walters family. The house Jane lived in at Bald Hills (in her later years) still stands, with recent additions. their house in Sandgate was demolished in the 1910s? (cant remember the year).
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Hi Meredith, welcome to rootschat cousin!
I'm also related to Ann Reid and Thomas Mortimer Walters through their son George Hugh who moved to Sydney and was my g grandfather. I am actually in the process of writing up my research at the moment and would love to compare notes.
If you make a couple more posts I can send you a personal message. :D
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hi Maddy
I visited George Hugh's grave in Rookwood cemetery about 10 years ago; and his houses, in Darlinghurst (around the corner form where i lived for a short time in 1968) and in Cleveland Street, Surry hills (it was renovated a few years ago). I remember told that George was a chef/cook at a city hotel (near Wynyard). George had two sisters: Jane who married Captain Ellery and Ann (probably by grandmother- but presented herself as my mothers aunt- most likely in order to keep her daughter, Merle Mabelle, in her care- as Merle would undoubtedly have been taken from her if she presented as an single, unmarried mother. Ann adopted the name Ianthe at some time and is recorded as Ann Ianthe in electoral rolls.
Thomas Mortimer Walters, his wife Ann, his mother Jane Fishley and stepfather George Fishley, are in a family plot in Toowong cemetery. I visit it every few months. It is adjacent to the plots of the Petrie family - v important in early Brisbane life and its history. Thomas worked for the Petries at some time, and Auntie (as I knew Ann Ianthe Walters) believed he was the clerk of works for All Saints fortitude Valley. Meredith
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Hi again,
Yes, George was a chef at 111 Clarence St (next to the Wynyard Hotel) where my grandmother was born. There is an advertisement in the Sydney Morning Herald 15 Sept 1894 for a chef at 111 Clarence St, I guess George either responded to the ad, or maybe placed it. (He was married in 1895 and gives his address as 111 Clarence St.) Family stories also say he worked as a chef at Victoria Barracks, although I haven't found anything to prove that yet.
How interesting about your aunt/grandmother. Until now I hadn't known what happened to George's sister Ann, so it's great to find out where she went.
I haven't been to Brisbane either (since I started researching the family!) but know a fair amount about them. My daughter did a school assignment on family history a while ago and researched Thomas Mortimer, lots of interesting articles on Trove about his time as a building contractor (working on the Petrie Wharf Buildings among other large buildings like the New Zealand Insurance Building) and his time running the Assembly Hotel, and standing for Brisbane City Council.
Since these original posts in 2014 I have done quite a bit more research, George Hugh Fishley and Horatio (Thomas' brother) are particularly interesting characters!
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Maddy- That's wonderful. Before my mother died in 2011, I had done some family research but the resources readily available are now massive. I ahve compiled basics- birth and death certificates, and visited where people lived and the undeveloped property which family say was unjustly claimed after Thomas death. I need ot find the research folders mislaid in my move from Sydney. I also have some family objects, china, and tablecloths; and photo of unknown people - but one of Horation who was v large.
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Oooh photographs and memorabilia, I'm envious! We have some photographs of George's wife and family, but none of him. You should try posting the one of unknown people on the Dating Old Photographs board - even if you don't know who they are, the very clever and helpful people on this site can help narrow the date so that could you could make a bit of a guess.
Sending you a pm too.
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Is this post still active?
I am tracing back my mothers side and we have some common relatives Thomas Mortimer WALTERS & Ann REID. I have only found two children: John Rawley/Rowley WALTERS 1876-1914 and Andrew Mortimer/McLachlan WALTERS 1877-1952 who is my Great Grandfather any information would be wonderful :)
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Hello Stormraider and welcome to rootschat!
I have a fair amount of info about Thomas Mortimer which I'm more than happy to share. My understanding is that Thomas and Ann had 7 children:
Horatio (1865-1865)
George Hugh (1866-1938) - my ancestor
Jane (1867-1913)
Thomas Mortimer (1870-1931)
Ann (1873-1967)
John Rowley (1876-1914)
Andrew (McLachan?) (1877-1852)
I have written up Thomas's "story" as far as I know it, but haven't gotten around to the siblings of George yet. If you make another 2 posts on here I could send you a personal message with more info.
Nice to meet another cousin! ;D
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Hello Maddy.....So we are related :) Thank you for the information. I was certian their were more children. I am the great grand daughter of Andrew McLachan WALTERS and Mary LIVOCK who spent most of their lives living between Charters Towers and Townsville. I am the granddaughter of James Russell WALTERS who is the third son of Andrew & Mary
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That's great Stormraider.
I have to log out now, but if you make another post, I'll try to pm you tomorrow. :)
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Thanks Maddy..... I will continue on with my research. Talk soon