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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Cardiganshire => Topic started by: Viking666 on Sunday 03 August 14 09:55 BST (UK)
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I'm clutching at straws in trying to locate the parents or siblings of John (1760) and James (1763) Richards of Bryn Isaf, Lledrod. Fortunately, most of the straws are in and around Lledrod. It is stated in "Enwogion Mon" that John and James were nephews of Edward Richard the founder of the Ystradmeurig School but, as Edward's mother was known far and wide as "Auntie Gwen", this must have been a mistake. And now we have a David Richards, of Strygosfawr, who, during the birthdates of John and James, was living at Ffosybleiddiaid, just a couple of hundred meters away from Bryn Isaf. Edward Richard also owned the mill at Swyddffynnon and in his will it was left to James Lloyd of Mabws, the owner of Ffosybleiddiaid.
Can anyone link any of the above to one another as family members. Beware of a plethora of gents called David Richards in the area.
Any help would be appreciated.
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Further Info on the above David Richards. His dates are 1747-1810. His father, of the same name, was the Bond-holder for the repairs and alterations to the bridge at Pontrhydfendigaid, completed in 1760. Edward Richard had written derogatory songs and verse about the bridge. Farm-carts were often "stranded" on the hump in the middle and it was James Lloyd of Mabws, (lifelong friend of Edward Richards) who persuaded the authorities to commission the alterations. David Richards Senior completed the work. I have no info for David Senior except that his father's name was Thomas and he inherited the mill at Lledrod and other property. (Including Tynllan which still exists, next to the Church) upon his death.
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You probably already know,but there is an abstract of a will for David Richards,1810,Lledrod at the National Archives,Kew
Modified-finally managed to open the will at NLW,no sign of John or James.
Regards
Roger
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Again,you have probably seen it,but amongst many references to David Richards of Lledrod at NLW there is one dated 1757,an indenture of £100-David Richards of Foesybleidded(sic) and Letitia his wife to Edward Richards of Spytty Ystrad Meyrick(sic) re a property called Bryn Merllyd and a note of 1764 acknowledging repayment of capital and interest by Thomas Richards.
Bryn Merllyd is given elsewhere as "alias Tythyn-y-Bryn-Issa"
There is a marriage of 1737 of David Richards of Lledrod to Letitia Parry at Llanrhystud that looks interesting in this context.Obviously not David Richards(1747-1810)!-perhaps his father.
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger, we meet again.
Many thanks for your input; as always, it will keep me busy for the rest of the week. Of special interest is the reference to the house at Ystrad Meurig.
The David (Obit 1810), is the son of David. I have a note here for David Senior.
David Richards of Strygosfawr in the parish of Lledrod, CO. Cardigan, gent, (son and heir of Thomas Richards of the same place, gent., deceased by Magdalen his wife).
I have a sneaking suspicion that David Senior is related to John and James's father and now that you have supplied his wife's name, then perhaps I will have more luck. (Letitia-seen but not connected).
This takes David Senior's DoB back to circa 1710 and from that bit of info you can see why, initially, I thought that he could have been one of Edward Richard's undocumented siblings. Edw. B 1714 and his brother, Abraham, B1711.
There is further documentation referring to the transfer of Lledrod Mill...
(Documents concerning Lledrod Mill, Cardiganshire and Ty yn y Porth house and gardens built on the mill premises by 1788, and the houses called Ty Issa, or Wainhelig, or Wainbaby and Tynllan and the Inn and shop called the King’s Arms in the parish of Lledrod, from 1786 to 1926.)
You can see that it includes the property, Ty Issa. This house still exists and there was a Richards there until quite recently, vide the following death notice.
52. Jane Richards, Ty-Isaf, Lledrod 22 July 1959
And so it goes on...and on.
Many thanks for your continuing interest. Peter
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Letitia Richards(widow) is named in an indenture of 1777 in the Crosswood 2(B) documents at NLW.
There are quite a few familiar names in this and subsequent entries,some perhaps relating to the death of Edward Richard in that year.
I wonder if the Elizabeth Richards is the same as that in the will of 1830 at Tynllan Lledrod?
I keep getting an error message when I try to open it.
Regards
Roger
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Hi.
Extract of part of Edward Richard's will from 1777.
On 27 February 1777 he made his will, which appointed his friends Thomas Hughes, of Hendrefelen, and John Jones, surgeon, of Bryn-hope, his executors. By it, he assigned his mill at Swyddffynnon to his lawyer friend, James Lloyd of Mabws, who had drawn up the previously-mentioned deeds, though only on two conditions, namely, the payment of 20s. per annum to Edward's successor at Ystrad Meurig, and the free grinding of their corn at the mill by the inhabitants of the village of Ystrad Meurig.
It looks as though David Junior had a son named David, so too a daughter named Elizabeth. There is also an Elizabeth with a husband called David Richards but they are too young to be of the relevant generation.
By-the-by. Lledrod Upper is below Lledrod, and Lledrod Lower is above. I still have no luck with Letitia.
Peter.
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Perhaps you can make sense of the following-I'm lost in the plethora.
I thought I would look for wills under Ystrad Meurig(using that alone as the search term)
Among the wills was one for David Richard of Clawdd Kerrig,Spytty Ystwyth dated 1722 in which he refers to,amongst others:-
His father Richard Thomas (Thomas Richard?)
His brother Edward Richard
His wife Magdalen Jenkin(s)
Too much of a coincidence?
Regards
Roger
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Things are clicking into place. James Lloyd of Ffosybleiddiaid had a daughter named Letitia and I was wondering whether this was the link between the Lloyd family and David Richards. David and his wife moved into Ffos, (Modern name) when Lloyd moved to the big family home at Mabws. He also was involved in bettering the status of David by moving him and his family into a fine house, thus enabling him to be referred to as "Gent" in official documents etc.
Thomas was definitely David's father, and Magdalen his mother.
And then we have a mystery Edward, popping up, just like that, another lead to follow.
I notice the subtle change from the patronymic Richard, to Richards. Welsh language records use Rhisiart.
Could you find a marriage between Letitia and David.
His brother Edward, depending on his DoB, could be a relative of John and James.
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If I have the right person,the following does not fit the theory:-
https://histfam.familysearch.org//getperson.php?personID=I119059&tree=Welsh
Regards
Roger
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News Flash. Just received a letter from Library of Wales. I quote ...
"Certainly there were Thomas and David Richards with some relationship to Bryn Issa during the 1700's, according to the papers of the Trawsgoed Estate which owned Bryn Issaf (BRYN MERLLYD) at that time. In 1798 the resident was the Rev.O.F.Owen, vicar of Llanilar."
So your post was spot on!
[quote author Despair.
Again, you have probably seen it, but amongst many references to David Richards of Lledrod at NLW there is one dated 1757,an indenture of £100-David Richards of Foesybleidded(sic) and Letitia his wife to Edward Richards of Spytty Ystrad Meyrick(sic) re a property called Bryn Merllyd and a note of 1764 acknowledging repayment of capital and interest by Thomas Richards.
Bryn Merllyd is given elsewhere as "alias Tythyn-y-Bryn-Issa")
1757 was the date that David moved to Ffos. Edward must be Edward from the school at Ystradmeurig. John was born at Bryn Issaf in 1760. The above seem to be negotiations to obtain a home for a newly-wed couple, (John and James' parents).
John must have inherited Bryn Issaf because in his will dated 1832 he leaves the property Bryn Issaf, to his son at Llangadwaladr, Anglesey.
Yes, we're getting closer.
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Shame about Letitia at Histfam .... but how wonderful not to have a Rear Admiral John Thomas in the family!
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Apologies-the record from Histfam was for James Lloyd,the son of John Lloyd.Here is John's record
https://histfam.familysearch.org//getperson.php?personID=I119048&tree=Welsh
Not sure now about Letitia
Regards
Roger
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Hello
Ffosybleiddiaid,Lledrod
In a book I have ,it mentions the above house was occupied by tenants such as David Richards who farmed there with his wife Letitia in 1757.He was followed by his son ,also David.By 1843 the property was owned by Major Lloyd-Phillips of Mabws and tenanted by David Meredith
Kind regards
omega
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A few other points that seem to me to make more sense of some of the data,but don't necessarily
lead to the answer(s) you want yet.
In the Crosswood2(B) documents at NLW there is a reference in 1719 to a David Richard,yeoman of Ynis Pervedd(sic) with an interest in Tythyn Bryn Merllyd with a son and heir Richard David.As we know the property is at least in part synonymous with Tythyn y Bryn Issa and later on apparently Pen(Y)Bryn.There are three relatively adjacent properties in Swyddffynnon on current maps- Ynys y Berfedd,PenBryn and Bryn Isaf and not too far from Ffos.
The will of 1722 of David Richard which I quoted may not be relevant.There is a will of 1727 of Richard David of Ystrad Meurig who also,it seems,has a wife Magdalen(a little unclear),and inevitably,amongst others,sons David and Edward.
The David Richards(note Richards) of Lledrod first seen I think in these documents in 1742 is given as a gent-perhaps too early for the "conversion" you speak of.He seems to have dealings with a Rees Parry,who has a wife Letitia.Perhaps he also has a daughter Letitia and it is she who marries David Richards in 1737.The 1742 interest is a property called Henrde Rys.
There is not an obvious known family link between David Richards,gent, and the yeoman's family,yet in 1753 there is David Richards of Lledrod,gent,with an interest in Tyddyn y Bryn Merllyd!
Regards
Roger
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Hi Omega1,
The son of David Richards of Ffos was named David Meredith Richards, (1747-1810) The man you mention may be yet another son named David. (Groan).
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Hi Roger,
My visitors from Moscow have just left for home so I need a small rest before sorting out my next post. A signal of tiredness was me spending half an hour trying to read a will from 1682 before realizing that it was written in Latin! Watch this space!
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Nil desperandum!
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger,
New day, new theory. I wonder if we can completely discard the David Richards family of Ffosybleiddiaid, past and present, and simplify our data.
John (1760) and James Richards (1763) were born at Bryn Isaf, (Bryn Merllyd). Going backwards, we see the negotiations regarding Bryn Isaf dated 1757. Looking at the details we see that the £100 is repaid, after 7 years, by Thomas Richards. ( We haven't come across a Thomas in David Ffos's family. I thought that the Edward Richards mentioned was the one from the school but the 1727 will of David Richard, (Yeoman) of Ynys y Perfedd shows a wife named Magdalen and sons named David and EDWARD.
Having regard to the lack of useful results from the pursuit of David of Ffos and his family, (although they must have been involved with the Richard family of Ystradmeurig) I'm leaning in the direction of the forebears of John and James to be from the David Richard (Gent) line. Because there is an Edward involved in the negotiations for Bryn Isaf, ( and, I presume, Thomas was his son), this increases the probability of Thomas being John and James' father.
Your observation that the David Richards (Gent) that Married a Letitia in 1737 is not the same person as David Richards who later, (1757) became a "Gent", seems correct.
We see that the David Richards of Strygosfawr, Lledrod, son and heir of Thomas, Yeoman, and Magdalen Richards, the owner of Lledrod Mill and various properties in the area left to David in his will, would be a "gent" in his own right. None of the properties mentioned in the will can be linked to David of Ffos ... nor Strygosfawr, the residence of David "Gent". We now can concentrate on details for Edward, son of Thomas, brother of David of Strygosfawr.
(Another observation is that David of Strygos married in 1737 ... Edward would have married around the same date and had a son, who in 1760, (DoB of John Richards), would have been in his early 20's.
Have a good think about this post and check my dates etc. thinking outside the box may work this time. Regards, Peter
[quote author Despair.
Again, you have probably seen it, but amongst many references to David Richards of Lledrod at NLW there is one dated 1757,an indenture of £100-David Richards of Foesybleidded(sic) and Letitia his wife to Edward Richards of Spytty Ystrad Meyrick(sic) re a property called Bryn Merllyd and a note of 1764 acknowledging repayment of capital and interest by Thomas Richards.]
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I have been trying to distinguish the various(?) David Richards,Gent referred to in the indentures in Crosswood 2(B) viz
1742 Lledrod -involved with Rees Parry re Hendre Rys(Rees?)
1753 Caron - refers to Tyddyn y Bryn Merllyd
1753-Lledrod
!754 LLandewi Brefi- involved with Hendre Rees,has a son Morgan and grandson Thomas
From this last detail I have found the will of David Richards Llandewi Brefi(who looks like the same person as "Lledrod" because of the involvement with Hendre Rees?)
Crucially his will is dated 1756,Llandewi Brefi.His wife is Mary,with sons Morgan,Thomas and the youngest David(I hear you groaning).Morgan's will is available at NLW under Radnor(he also has a son Thomas).
I haven't been able yet to find approximate dates for the children to see,for instance,whether David Richards ref. Ffos 1757,might be the son of David and Mary(haven't found this marriage either).
Regards
Roger
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Hi, (Insert Groan,
Just spotted something of interest.
D.D. 1460. Indenture, dated 1 Aug. 1769, being a lease for a year (so that a grant by release might be made) from David Richards of Strygosfawr in the parish of Lledrod, CO. Cardigan, gent, (son and heir of Thomas Richards of the same place, gent., deceased by Magdalen his wife) to James Lloyd of Mabus, co. Cardigan, esq., of messuages and lands in the said parish of Lledrod, called Strygos otherwise Strygos- fawr, and Twyn y rhose, and late in the tenures of Magdalen Richards, David Richards, Richard David and Thomas Jones. Witnesses : Wm. Lewis; David Jones; Richard Phillips.
This is obviously not David of Ffos ... the details fit the "New" David mentioned in my last post.
We need now to concentrate on Edward,the brother of this David Richards. I'm harvesting spuds at the moment but I'll have a look later. Immediate impact of the above entry shows that David Strygos was still alive and in business in 1769 so the Llandewi Brefi David Richards must be yet another one. Let's ignore him for now and concentrate on Edward, hoping that he only had 1 child, named Thomas!
(I can't remember whether I told you that John (1760) had 10 children and his brother James (1763) had 9. John's son Michael, 1798 had 11, and James' son Edward had 10. I'm one of 13.)
Onwards and sideways. Peter
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Hi again.
Referring to your last post where you mention, " Caron - refers to Tyddyn y Bryn Merllyd".
I was just doing a "last ditch" search at NLW for Thomas Richards when lo and behold ......
A Bond dated 1781 drawn up by the Bishop of Bangor in respect of Elizabeth Richards, of Caron, Montgomery regarding the estate of her late husband, Thomas Richards of Llanerchymedd and Caron, Montgomery.
You may remember that John Richards was the Vicar of Llanerchymedd and James his brother was a draper and maltster there. I've always wondered why they both ended up so far from home. The Rev. John would go where he was told but James seems to have moved there of his own accord.
I can only think that their father, Thomas, moved there between James' birth in 1763 and his death in 1781.
The inventory shown on Image 2 seems to contain a lot of horses, including 12 wild mountain horses. All of the effects are that of a farm that would need a family larger than the one recorded so there must be other children of Thomas. The Rev. John was the inheritor of the farm , probably when his mother died, date unknown.
What a stroke of luck. As I said in my last post, knowing that it was a Thomas that repaid the money for Bryn Merllyd, that he was the prime suspect to be John and James' father. Here he is in Llanerchymedd and I may have added another 3 generations to my tree.
Check my info and see what you think.
Regards from Peter.
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I have found the bond you refer to,but I have some doubts as follows:-
The entry is titled,and the text contains,reference to Llanerchymedd,Carno,Montgomery
This is not Caron,Cardiganshire(which exists at Goginan,Cardiganshire - or perhaps it's a form of Tregaron) which was the original reference in 1753 for David Richards.
I did doubt that Llanerchymedd,Carno(note,not Caron) existed,but the following suggests it did
http://www.connectedhistories.org/Search_results.aspx?pc=Carno&st=400&sr=pp
What all this quite means I am unsure-an original misinterpretation of which Llanerchymedd is relevant(?).
I note also,that as well as the widow Elizabeth,the bond refers to the Rev John Thomas,which could be the patronymic form for John,son of Thomas(Richards)-or it could be a complete coincidence-there is a signature at the bottom which might be John Tilsley Thomas.
Regards
Roger
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Having seen the 1833 will of John Richards at Llanerch-y-medd ,Anglesey, I think the bond you found is not relevant.I have seen the bond in the wills section,I can't see where it says "...Caron AND Llanerchymedd..."
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger,
Yes, there is a Carno in Montgomery. A quick search hasn't produced a Llanerchymedd, place or farm in the vicinity. Do you know whether Montgomery lay within the boundaries of the Bishop of Bangor at that time. What a coincidence.
Back to bed for me! Peter
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In the last link I provided above,the third article contains a sequence of properties ".....Ffosddu,Llannerchymedd,Cefn Brith,.................in the parish of Carno...."
Ffosddu(SY17 5JX) and Cefn Brith(SY17 5JY) still exist.At SY17 5JY currently there is a Llanerch and a Llanerch Isaf,which,presumably,therefore,were previously Llanerchymedd.
Regards
Roger
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At last I've managed to download half a copy of the Crosswood document that you keep referring to but, in text, it ends in 1722. A quick look at what I have shows the following entry.
II.156
1694, Nov. 9
INDENTURE, being a mortgage for £40 from David Richard of p. Lledrod, co. Card., yeoman, and Goley his wife, to Charles Pryse of Llwyn-y-kedni in the same p., gent., of the moiety or half of three parts of an ancient tmt called Tythyn-bryn-merllyd in gr. Mevenith, co. Card., being formerly parcel of the possessions of the dissolved abbey of Strata Florida.
This is the earliest connection we have between David Richard, Yeoman, and Bryn Merllyd. There are a few almost identical entries for this transaction. (They all show David's wife as Goley). This may be taken as Goleu ... Light in Welsh, it's the only name that I've come across before that fits.
The name Caron/ Carron is common at this time and seems to indicate Tregaron. Note how the Landowners squeeze eggs, hens, cash and meat out of their tenants as part of the tenancy!
I'm running out of search options ... there may be no other avenues to explore but I still go with the parents of John and James originating with David Richard, Yeoman, (above), through his son Edward, and his as yet unknown son, possibly the Thomas that paid for Bryn Issaf/Bryn Merllyd.
I think that we may have broken all records with this topic ... it added 5 years to my life, and reading those wills ruined my eyesight but we almost made it in the end.
Regards from Peter.
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Another entry in Crosswood ....
II.162
1719, Sept. 29
INDENTURE, being an assignment from Charles Pryse of Rhandir, p. Llan-y-grwyddon, co. Card., gent., by the direction of David Richard of Unis-pervedd, p. Lledrod, co. Card., yeoman, and his son and heir-apparent David Richard, to Thomas Richard of Bwlch-y-ddwyallt, p. Caron, co. Card., gent., of a mortgage for £40 (granted on 9 Nov. 1694 by the said David Richard and Goley his wife to the said Charles Price) of the moiety of three parts of an ancient tmt called Tythin-y-bryn-merllyd in gr. Mevenydd, co. Card., being formerly parcel of the possessions of the dissolved monastery of Strata Florida, and of a further charge of £30 on the same, and a further charge of £12.7.6 then advanced by the said Thomas Richard.
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I had seen that,but been unable to find connections other than possibly identifying Goley,which doesn't help
http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/national-library-of-wales/calendar-of-deeds-and-documents--volume-1-ita/page-4-calendar-of-deeds-and-documents--volume-1-ita.shtml
There are quite a lot of wills under "Caron" Cardigan,but again,so far no obvious connection.
Regards
Roger
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I don't know why I didn't think of this before,but given the 1757 reference to Bryn Issa,and your statement of the births there of John and James in the early 1760s,I thought I would look for any references in Crosswood 2(B) after this date.
The following looks interesting:-
II.426
1777, Jan. 17
INDENTURE, being a declaration by Morgan Harry of Fronfelen, p. Llanychaiarne, co. Card., gent., and Letitia Richards of p. Llanygrwyddon, co. Card., widow, that a fine had been levied at the Great Sessions for co. Card. on 14 Aug. 1762 by Elizabeth Richards, widow, the said Letitia Richards, Thomas Richards, gent. and Jane his wife, of two tmt’s called Penbryn-issa alias Tythyn-y-bryn-merllyd, and Bryn-merllyd alias Tythyn-
bryn-issa, and of a parcel of land called Gorse-glan-teify (60 a.), p. Lledrod, co. Card., to the use (as to the said parcel of land) of the said Morgan Harry in fee, but that no uses had been declared as to the said two tmt’s, they therefore declared that the said fine should enure (as to the said two tmt’s) to the use of William Davies of Penbrynn, p. Llanvihangel Lledrod, co. Card., gent., in fee simple. It recites that the said Elizabeth Richards, Thomas Richards and Jane his wife had all dec., and that the said two tmt’s were the inheritance on the said William Davies.
I'm not sure if the Thomas Richards is the same as the 1757 one and I have not tracked William Davies.
However,elsewhere Thomas Richards is described as the second son of Rev Morgan Richards,clerk of Radnor whose will of 1749 is available at NLW.Given the date of his death this could give a birth date as early as,say 1710(?) for Thomas,not impossible as the father of James and John.
Not direct evidence,but a daughter of Morgan Richards(as the patronymic doesn't seem to be used(?) is Rachel Richards.There is a marriage to a Charles Price in 1737 which might fit and Charles Price(("Pryse"),perhaps as father and son,feature throughout this period with familiar associations
-Swyddffynnon Mill and William Davies.Perhaps this is the father:-
II.158
1697, Sept. 20
INDENTURE, being a further charge of £30 from David Richard of p. Lledrod, co. Card., yeoman, and Goley his wife, to Charles Pryse
gent., on the moiety or half of three parts of an ancient tmt called Tythyn-bryn-merllyd in gr. Mevenith, and formerly parcel of the dissolved abbey of Strata Florida.
All a bit rambling and tentative,but it feels like the answer is somewhere in here.
Regards
Roger
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A little more of the connection:-
II.330
1765, May 7
INDENTURE, being a grant from Thomas Richards of Penybryn-merllyd, p. Lledrod, co. Card., gent., to William Davies of p. Spytty Ystrad Meirick, co. Card., gent., of two tmt’s called Bryn-merllyd and Pen-y-bryn-merllyd in said p. Lledrod. Consideration, £617.13s
Regards
Roger
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Good work Roger,
It's gone midnight here, (Sweden), so I'll have a better look at the new info tomorrow. It's funny how the same names, of people and places, keep popping up. On the face of it, it looks as though all of the Richards folk involved, are related to each other. I have a photo of Bryn Issaf ...such a small place to produce so many records of transactions.
Regards. Peter.
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I am looking for any more references to Thomas Richard(s) Bwlch y Ddywallt.
There is a current address at Pontrhydfendigaid,Ystrad Meurig.
Regards
Roger
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Here is a further extract from Crosswood 2(B),which helps define some relationships
II.229
1754, Sept. 10
INDENTURE, being a grant from David Richards of p. Llanddewy Brevy, co. Card., gent., to Thomas Davies of p. Llanbadarnfawr, co. Rad., clerk, of a tmt called Hendre Rees, p. Llanilar, co. Card., on trust for the said David Richards for his life, with remainder to Thomas Richards of p. Lledrod, co. Card., (second son of Morgan Richards of p. Llanddewy Ystradeny, co. Rad., clerk, dec., who was the eldest son of the said David Richards) and his issue, with similar remainders in succession to Rachel Richards and Lucy Richards, the dau’s of the said Morgan Richards, dec
The will of this David Richards,1756,is available at NLW.As well as Morgan Richards,he had sons John and David(groan).
I did wonder if the son David was the one at Ffos.
Regards
Roger
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Hi, just got in.
I've started to dissect your latest info ... the first thing that I notice is that in the indenture of 1777, there is a reference to Leticia Richards. She is the widow of David Richards of Ffos. I notice that they have shown her as of Llanygwyron (sic). I have another David Richards,(Groan) (b1799) at Llangwyryfon, Lledrod. Modern census shows a cluster of Richards in this small area.
[quote author Despair.
Again, you have probably seen it, but amongst many references to David Richards of Lledrod at NLW there is one dated 1757,an indenture of £100-David Richards of Foesybleidded(sic) and Letitia his wife to Edward Richards of Spytty Ystrad Meyrick(sic) re a property called Bryn Merllyd and a note of 1764 acknowledging repayment of capital and interest by Thomas Richards).
David Richards, the eldest son of David Richards, Strygosfawr, was, in 1769, shown to be still at Strygosfawr.
David Richards, the bridge repairer, is shown in 1757 as living in Ffosybleiddiaid.
We have, in your last post, a David Richards of Llandewi ... this is dated 1754 so this one is neither of the above.
What is interesting is that Thomas, (who I thought might have been another son of David the Elder of Strygosfawr), may, in fact be from another area. "Thomas, second son of Morgan Richards of Llandewi". They may be related but are now in another geographical area and with my limited access to records, and the fact that I'm in my 70's, you'll have to carry me along a bit.
Off to a farmer's auction this afternoon but, like that actor said, (that wasn't named David Richards), "I'll be back". Regards Peter.
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I've been looking at records for Thomas Richards,hopefully as per the family from the 1754 reference previously.This establishes him as the son of Morgan Richards(deceased 1749) and grandson of David Richards,given as of Llandewi Brefi at the time of his will -1756.There is no guarantee that he was of Llandewi Brefi prior to this time of course.
The will of Morgan Richards(Rev/clerk) refers to a Thomas Davies,brother-in-law,also Rev/clerk.Perhaps he is the brother of the William Davies who is referred to in the 1765 transfer and indicative of a trend for REv/clerks in the family as per John later.
The big surprise is the 1769 reference
I.1023
1769, June 2
DEED POLL, being a declaration by Nathaniel Smith of Presteign, co. Rad., maltster, and Rachel his wife (late Rachel Richards, spinster, one of the dau’s of Rev. Morgan Richards, clerk, dec.) that Thomas Richards formerly of p. Lledrod, co. Card., but afterwards of p. St Margaret, Westminster, gent. (eldest surviving son of the said Morgan Richards), had released to them all his interest in the personal estate of his said father, and also that the said Nathaniel Smith and Rachel his wife had released the said Thomas Richards from a sum of £67 charged on a tmt called Hendre Rees, p. Llanilar.
Further,there is a 1770 record of trhe marriage of Thomas Richards Esq. of Parliament Street,St Margarets,Westminster to Lucy Walters of PallMall.
However,he still sems to feature locally in 1780
II.458
1780, Mar. 9
INDENTURE, being a lease for a year (so that a grant by release might be made) from Thomas Richards of p. Lledrod, co. Card. (second son of Morgan Richards of p. Llanddewy Ystradeny, co. Rad., clerk, dec.) to Thomas Jones of Carmarthen, gent., of a tmt called Hendre Rees, p. Llanilar, co. Card.
but appears to have died by 1784
II.483
1784, June 3
INDENTURE, being a lease for a year (so that a grant by release might be made) from Thomas Richards late of p. Lledrod, co. Card., gent. (second son of Morgan Richards of Llanddewy Ystradeny, co. Rad., clerk, dec.) to the Rt Hon. Wilmot, Earl of Lisburne, of a tmt called Hendre Rees, p. Llanilar, co. Card.
Or,perhaps "...late of Lledrod.." simply means he is "...of somewhere else.."
Regards
Roger
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Your last post has turned up surprising information that Morgan Richards was a clergyman, so was his son Thomas. See the following, which is on page 2 of this topic, Bryn Issaf was, in 1798, occupied by a Rev. O. F. Owen, the Vicar of Llanilar.
The jump from country clergyman to Pall Mall Westminster for Thomas in 1770 comes as no great shock. The lowly James of Bryn Issaf had a son who married one of the richest widows in Liverpool. His daughter Elizabeth married Robert Prichard of Llwydiarth Esgob and their daughter married William Laird, principal director of Laird Brothers Shipbuilders, of Birkenhead.
Our investigations seemed to be leaning towards John and James being related to the Morgan Richards family, with a possibility that Thomas was their father. His marriage to Lucy of Pall Mall puts that out of court.
We don't know the name of Morgan Richards' father yet, do we? Even though Morgan is stated as being of Llandewi, he could easily have been born at Lledrod.
One of the biggest denominators in the saga of the multiple Reverends at Bryn Issaf is that it's almost certain that they were all taught at Edward Richard's School at Ystradmeurig ... their parents may have known him personally.
The earliest mention, so far, is this indenture from 1722 but mentions a previous transaction from 1716. Even at this early date, Pen-y-bryn Merllyd is being traded by a Thomas Richards.
1722, Sept. 29
INDENTURE, being an assignment from Thomas Richards of Penybrin-merllyd, p. Lledrod, co. Card., gent., by the direction of Thomas Evan Rees of said p. Lledrod, yeoman, to Hugh Rice of the same p., clerk, of a mortgage for £53 (granted on 2 Oct. 1716 by the said Thomas Evan Rees and Elizabeth his wife, to the said Thomas Richards) and of a further charge of £17 on a tmt called Tythin-brin-issa, comprising the one-fourth part of an ancient tmt called Bryn-merllyd in said p. Lledrod, being formerly parcel of the possessions of the dissolved monastery of Strata Florida. Memorandum (endorsed) that the principal and interest had been repaid to the said Hugh Rice on 29 Sept. 1740.
We are back in the days when Edward Richard was born, 1714 and this can't be the same Thomas that Marries Lucy in 1770; the dates don't make sense.
Anyway, that's food for thought. We need a circa DoB for Thomas, the son of Morgan Richards, and find out who the earlier Thomas was.
Regards from Peter
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A couple of points
Thomas the son of Morgan is not a clergyman.It is Thomas Davies,his brother in law who is.
Morgan's father is David Richards,given latterly as of Llandewi Brefi as per the 1754 reference.
There are too many similar personal and place names to be certain that we are following a single strand or family in any given circumstance.I'm not sure what line of enquiry to take next at the moment.
Regards
Roger
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Yes, mixed up the Reverends, sorry.
We do know that a Thomas, with his wife Jane, was living at Bryn Issaf vide the 1777 Indenture, Jan 17th. They must have been the parents of John and James. ( Rev. John was at Oxford then and James was 14). During all of the negotiations for Bryn Merllyd, I think that the names really don't have that much importance ... they are involved with property title etc. and don't reflect what was actually happening, "on the ground". However much the property was exchanged between parties, the names are those of the lesees and negotiators, not the occupants of the properties. When John and James were born, the property may have been in the name of someone else but as we can see from the 1777 indenture, Thomas and Jane were resident there. (Letitia was also named but was actually living at Llangwyryfon). We need to find out who this Thomas was. He was not the second son of Morgan Richards, as I stated in my last post ... who is this guy?
Gone midnight again. Regards from Peter.
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Another thought. I've noticed that, in the entries that we have concerning negotiations, that they always refer to parts of the property. One refers to one half of 3 parts and it may be that what we have here are multiple tenants of various parts of Bryn Issaf. From experience of other family in Anglesey, notably Tre'r Gof in the 1870's, various parts of their estate were regularly mortgaged off to various people in order to raise funds.
We still have the, "on the ground " fact that, regardless of who owned which part, in 1833 it was in the Rev. John's power to leave the property to his second son, John, (1800-1849). When John died, as per the Rev's will, the property should have been transferred to his brother Michael of Parciau, but in John's 1850 will, there is no mention of Bryn Issa but there is a large sum of money deposited with Michael on John's behalf, showing interest of £21.
So many parts would explain why so many people are involved over the years.
Regards from Peter.
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Having re-read the will of David Richards,Llandewi Brefi,1756 he has three sons-Morgan(eldest),Thomas(second),David(youngest).
Perhaps it is this second son Thomas who is the husband of Jane,with the grandson Thomas(via Morgan) who marries Lucy Walters and,also perhaps David who marries Letitia Parry in 1737(and is the David of Ffos?).
Having allocated bequests to all and sundry the balance of the estate goes to the grandson Thomas.
Unfortunately I can't find any birth/baptisms/ages etc to help support this.
Regards
Roger
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Just had a good read of that will. The only facts that we can use from it are that Morgan Richards is deceased and that David was the youngest son. We know that David of Ffos married in 1737, giving him a probable DoB Circa 1710-1715. His brother Thomas, (with sister Gwen between them), would have a Dob around 1710. This would have given him an age of 50 when the Rev. John was born in 1760 so I don't see him as the Thomas of Bryn Issaf. I agree with the Thomas, grandson, being the man for Lucy. One thing that worries me is that, amongst all of the 6 children, and quite a few properties, all are located in Llandewi Brefi and there is no mention of Lledrod. David was at Ffosybleiddiaid when the will was made, already married.
regards, Peter
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Your analysis feels right,particularly the geographic aspect.I will go back and re-read the other wills that could contribute and see if I can develop an alternative.
Regards
Roger
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Getting down to basics by listing anything relating to Tythin Bryn Merllyd / Bryn Issaf.
1637 Sept 2 Grant to Evan David - Bryn Merllyd.
1638 Sept 21Grant to Rees David ap Oliver - Bryn Merllyd.
1658 Nov 24 Grant to Thomas Lewis - Tythin y bryn Issa and Ynys y Berwedd, (Ynys Perfedd).
1683 Apr 7. Details show Maurice and David Richard of Lledrod but no property details.
1694 Nov 8/9 Grant to David Richard - Tythin bryn Merllyd.
1697 Sept 20 David Richard - Tythin bryn Merllyd.
Next entry links David Senior to Ynys Perfedd, David Richard Junior, Thomas Richard of Caron, and Tythin y bryn Merllyd.
1719, Sept. 28
1760 Thomas and Jane Richards are residents at Bryn Issa, John and James are born there.
1765 Indent. Thomas and Jane Richards, plus Leticia Richards Widow at Bryn Issaf.
1798 Resident at Bryn Issaf/ Merllyd was Rev O.F. Owen.
1833 John Richards bequeaths Bryn Issa to his son, John Richards (1800-1844) Heneglwys, Mona.
I get the feeling that Merllyd was an actual area that contained the 3 properties that relate to the Richard/s family. Bryn Issaf, Pen y bryn Issaf and Ynys Perfedd.
Further to my post of yesterday regarding multiple owners of land. (From the lady at Aberystwyth).
A late 18th century map (NLW Crosswood Vol 2, 10) covering the farms of Ty-y-swydd, Ty-hen and Tynbwlch shows a landscape similar to that recorded by the tithe surveyors except for sub-divided strips in multiple ownership in one field.
Perhaps the list above tells its own story. A bit more work and we're sure to crack the case!
Regards Peter.
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These have been referenced before,but perhaps should be included in the list:
II.274
1757, June 16
INDENTURE, being a mortgage for £100 from David Richards of Foesybleidded, p. Lledrod, co. Card., gent., and Letitia his wife, to Edward Richards of
p. Spytty Ystrad Meirick, co. Card., gent., of a tmt called Tythyn-y-brin- issa, containing one-fourth part of an ancient tmt called Bryn-merllyd in said p. Lledrod and gr. of Mevenydd, being formerly parcel of the possessions of the dissolved monastery of Strata Florida. Receipt, ( endorsed), dated 1 Aug. 1764 by Edward Richards acknowledging the repayment of the principal and interest by Thomas Richards.
II.183
1738, Nov. 9
INDENTURE, being a lease for a year (so that a grant by release might be made) from Thomas Evan of p. Lledrod, co. Card., yeoman, and Elizabeth his wife, David Morgan of p. Ystrad Meyrick, co. Card., yeoman, and Catherine his wife, Margaret Evans of p. Lledrod, spinster, Anne Evans of p. Caron, co. Card., spinster (which said Elizabeth, Catherine, Margaret and Anne were the dau’s and coheiresses of Thomas Evan Rees of said p. Caron, yeoman, dec., by Elizabeth his wife, also dec.) and Rev. Hugh Rice of p. Lledrod, clerk, to Thomas Richard of the same p., gent., of a tmt called Tythyn-y-bryn-issa, containing the one-fourth part of an ancient tmt called Bryn-merllyd in gr. Mevenydd and p. Lledrod, being formerly parcel of the possessions of the dissolved monastery of Strata Florida
II.166
1722, Sept. 29
INDENTURE, being an assignment from Thomas Richards of Penybrin-merllyd, p. Lledrod, co. Card., gent., by the direction of Thomas Evan Rees of said p. Lledrod, yeoman, to Hugh Rice of the same p., clerk, of a mortgage for £53 ( granted on 2 Oct. 1716 by the said Thomas Evan Rees and Elizabeth his wife, to the said Thomas Richards) and of a further charge of £17 on a tmt called Tythin-brin-issa, comprising the one-fourth part of an ancient tmt called Bryn-merllyd in said p. Lledrod, being formerly parcel of the possessions of the dissolved monastery of Strata Florida. Memorandum ( endorsed) that the principal and interest had been repaid to the said Hugh Rice on 29 Sept. 1740.
Trying to make a single family line,supported by evidence of wills/marriages/births/dates is another matter.
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger, Sorry for the omissions, lost a sheet of notes somewhere.
The entry for 1719 is Thomas Richards of Caron buying the place. In the entry for 1722 we see that Thomas Richards, Gent, is the same one, from Lledrod and Caron.
The 1738 one is the family of the Rev. from Caron, taking their shares after the will. So we have identified the strange Thomas of Tythin y Bryn Issaf. It was just a coincidence with the surname that made us think that he was of my family.
Reading carefully the 1757 entry it makes me wonder whether David is actually the David Richards, of Ffos. How did we miss the Letitia (widow) that was concerned with the 1767 entry. I estimated his DoB as being around 1710 and he is shown on the 1719 entry.
Another hitch is that the Thomas and Jane Richards of Bryn Issa could well be the Thomas from Caron and his wife and not related to John and James. I've just noticed an Elizabeth Richards on the 1765 entry too, as well as Letitia.
They use the same name for both properties and I think that there was a Tyddyn y Bryn Issaf, another property, as well. It's hard to work out which place they're referring to.
Give me your thoughts, especially regarding the identity of David of Ffos.
Regards, Peter.
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Can't get any further at the moment-try again tomorrow.
Regards
Roger
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No matter how many times I try,I can't find a confident family line for David Richards of Ffos or distinguish the various Thomas Richards' either.
The only new data I have found,which doesn't help,is that there was a Rev. Edward Richards of Epsom,son of David Richards of Lledrod,gent,,dates probably 1759-1833,though his Jesus College,Oxford record might have him as 1765-1833.
Regards
Roger
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Same here Roger. I was having a look at the modern map of the area today and wondering why three, apparently different families named Richards, were living in that small area,( plus Edward Richard of Ystradmeurig having the mill at Swyddffynnon). I haven't been able to link the families together either and I'm hoping that, during the middle 1700's, they didn't intermarry, muddying the waters even more. We have hardly any records of them having children either although I have a David Richards, B1826, Gwnnws, (as an example), with a wife Elizabeth and children named David, Thomas, John, Elizabeth, William and Evan; all familiar names, but of the next generation. Trying to find out who their parents were would be just as difficult.
The new Reverend Edward Richards. The 1727 Will of David Richards, Yeoman of Ynys Perfedd, shows 2 sons, David and Edward. The birthdate for Rev. Edward is too late for this to be him but it could be a son of either of the two brothers.
I think that we've done our best in finding parents for the Rev. John Richards, my x4 Great Grandfather. Of interest is that from 1760, (Birth of Rev. John), right up to recent times, in over 300 entries, there hasn't been a single David amongst them.
Perhaps at this point we should retire from the fray, bruised but undefeated, taking up the hunt after a suitable interval. (Not too long, remember my age).
It's been fun; a lesson in history, dead ends and a salutary warning to those that have been reading this topic that things, sometimes, don't come easy.
Fine regards from Sweden. Peter.
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I'll probably have another look in a week or two,hopefully with a fresh approach.
Regards
Roger
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In re-reading your other related threads,I noticed this:-
An entry in the Druid papers describe either a wedding or funeral at Edgehill, Liverpool where the officiating clergy were Rev. D.James, Eglwys Llangwm ...Rev. Robert Pritchard, Llwydiarth Esgob. Elizabeth Richards, only daughter of the late Mr. Richards, Llanerchymedd; the only sister of the Rev. John Richards, Vicar of that place. The entry is undated but appears to be from the late 1700s
Does this imply that the Rev.John's father is buried at Llanerchymedd?I thought you had some photographs of the gravestones of some of the family there.Is he included or have I mis-interpreted the evidence?
Modified-having read the Llwydiarth Esgob thread,it seems the characters are all a generation later.
Regards
Roger
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The entry was an early attempt by Google Translate to translate from Welsh to English. The actual item is simply a report of the marriage of Elizabeth Richards' marriage to Robert Pritchard of Llwydiarth Esgob. The "late Mr. Richards" refers to James, the Rev's brother. The entry is from April, 1841.
I'm looking at the later generations around Lledrod, trying to work backwards to link them to the folk that we have. I had a look at an old map of the 3 properties involved in the Merllyd area. They are Joined by a simple cart track and to get to the furthest house (Ynys Perfedd), you have to pass the other 2. The owner of Bryn Issaf has told me that the present house dates from the 1800's but that the ruins of the original house are still there. I'm awaiting a photo from her. I'd hazard a guess that the properties involved were quite small and not of any great quality, certainly not enough to cause such a flurry of negotiations. The land, on the other hand, looks desirable.
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I have found one other possible source of information that may help in the absence of parish register data-there are booklets of monumental inscriptions produced by the local Family History Society.I have taken a gamble,not really knowing what dates are covered/extant,and ordered the ones for Lledrod and Ystrad Meurig.Hopefully they will arrive next week.If they contain any useful information,I will happily pass them on.
Regards
Roger
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That's great Roger. Thanks.
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We can write David Richards, the past owner of the Mill at Lledrod from our enquiries. I have the following information from the Library of Wales.
"Burial of David Richards, Gent, of Tynllan, Lledrod, in 1810, aged 63. (DoB is 1747). Also David Richards, (B 1790-1807), son of the aforesaid David Richards and his wife Elisabeth Richards."
The house, Tynllan, was included in the transfer of the mill to Jenkin Jones and it seems that David lived there from 1786 until his death.
regards, Peter.
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A piece of idle speculation,with apologies if it is going over old ground.
What chance(ignoring possible patronymic complications) that the parents of John and James are a John and Elizabeth?
The first four children of John and Anne were(in no particular order) Anne,Michael,John,Elizabeth.
Anne and Michael were the names of the parents of Anne.
John was also the eldest son of James and Elizabeth.I'm not sure if they had a daughter Elizabeth,but this would be complicated by the wife's name anyway.
I'll see if I can find such a couple in the area in the 1750s/1760s.
Regards
Roger
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I spoke too soon. David Richards, as well as leaving Tynllan to his wife, also left her the farm Pen-lan. This is the first house on the track that leads to Bryn Issaf etc.
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Yes, James had a daughter Elizabeth ... she is the one that married Robert Prichard of Llwydiarth Esgob ... Robert and Elizabeth had 3 children named Elizabeth, the first 2 died as infants.
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Just discovered another Pen-lan on my old map ...200M down the road from Tynllan! Damn.
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Rev. John's 1st son, Michael, had children John and Elizabeth
Rev. John's 2nd son John, also had children named John and Elizabeth.
His 3rd son Robert, also had children John and Elizabeth.
His 4th son has a child, John.
With there being so many children born to the immediate family of the Rev, John and James, there are bound to be some name transfers although it's never quite obvious which Elizabeth and John were involved. Has to be worth a try.
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I haven't found a suitable John and Elizabeth.
The MI booklets have arrived,and there are no entries that immediately seem relevant.There are very few burials from the 1700s.
Looking at location-these are the entries from properties of interest so far(copyright Cardiganshire FHS where appropriate)
Strygos - no entries.Indeed I have never been able to find another reference to this property anywhere.I have not been able to identify the property referred to with it in 1769 "twyn y rhose"(tyn y rhos?) either.
Ffosybleidded (sic) - there is reference to a very young daughter of David Edwards (Gent)of Ffosybleideded in 1798 and similarly a son in 1803.
In the next grave there is an David Edwards(1793-1813),son of David Edwards of Deryodwyn(Gent)
Ynysyberfedd - Owen Davies died 1812 aged 79 and his wife Jane died 1822 aged 67
Tynllan - quite a few entries that reflect the family of David(died 1810) and Elizabeth Richards(died 1830) as per the wills.
Bryn Isaf(Bryn Issa)- Stephen James,died 1859 aged 66 (wife Anne)
Daniel Morgans diedv 1888 aged 80(plus wife Catherine and children)
These entries are from Lledrod.I will look separately at Ystrad Meurig.
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger,
I've never been able to find Strygosfawr or Twyn-y-rhose either. Looking again at the 1769 Doc. it says, "messuages and land". Messuages are the house and other buildings so there must have been an actual place, rather than the doc being simply a transfer of land. Lledrod is a large spread-out parish but there isn't a peep of the properties. Looking at another doc. regarding the sale of the mill at Lledrod, we have 3 names for the same house, "Ty Issa, or Wainhelig, or Wainbaby" so the name Strygos may have changed, concealing its' location.
My notes show that David Richards was the resident at Ffosybleiddiad from 1757 to 1843 and then his son, David Meredith Richards was there from 1843 to C1870's. In 1880 the place was sold by the Lloyds of Mabws to the Trawsgoed Estate. I also have note of various servants at the house and a note that the huge kitchen of the house was used to house students at the Edward Richard School. (They slept in hammocks strung up in the rafters).
The dates that you have for Bryn Issaf are too late. John and James first appeared in Llanerchymedd in the early 1790's. their parents would have been born C1735/40.
I'm now looking at Llechwedd, Llangwyryfon, where there is a nest of Richards. The "Head" is a David Richards, (1801) with a wife Mary and son Daniel. Fingers croseed.
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My real concern in all this is that the answer lies in patronymic naming and the father is a "Richard X".It may not mean anything,but the Family Search record for John's marriage has him as John Richard.
Regards
Roger
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Thanks for that. I see that searches produce both names in the results. His will is signed Richards but in them days, looking at the docs that we have, they are sometimes shown as both, (in separate documents).
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Using the patronymic Richard in my searches, I am beginning to reveal that there were quite a few in the general area of Lledrod and Ystradmeurig.
The will of Jane Richard, written in Lledrod and dated 1789 is of initial interest. Bequests are made, among others, to the following.
To Thomas Richard of Lletymoel ... 20s each to two sons of Jenkin Richard of same place.
To nephew David, son of Jenkin 20s ... To 2 nephews John and Richard James, 10/= (Could be John and James Richard).
To nephew David, son of my brother James ... To nephew James, son of my brother Jenkins.
We have John and 3 James here. I'll continue looking.
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It seems that the middle to late 18th century was a transitional period from patronymic to surname usage,with adoption being different between gentry and yeomanry,so perhaps it's not surprising to find different forms for the same people.Also in the indentures/deeds at NLW person's "name" is sometimes quoted in the reverse form!
Certainly a lot of the wills from the region/period appear to give bequests in the patronymic.
Regards
Roger
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Probably irrelevant,but while I was looking for a Richard "X" as father I came across the following which supports the fact that a "plain" David Meredith(not David Meredith Richards) was at Ffosybleiddiad(the 1851 census has him born at Llanychaearn approx. 1784 which probably fits with him being the son of Thomas Meredith(1754-1832,will at NLW?).I was slightly excited because there is also a Richard Meredith(possibly 1725-1805) who might have fitted the bill,but his will makes no mention of a son James(though there is a John) and they seem to use "surname naming".I can't find a connection by marriage with a Richards family either.
Release of a passage way and a parcel of land in Mill Lane, Aberystwyth (J.L.M. Sinnett 27), 1809, June 10.
Level
File
Summary
1. Thomas Meredith of p. Llanychairarne, co. Card., gent., and David Meredith of Foesybleithed, co. Card., farmer, eldest son and heir at law of the said Thomas. 2. John Evans of Aberystwyth, co. Card., esq. Release of a passage way and a parcel of land in Mill Lane, Aberystwyth (J.L.M. Sinnett 27).
Regards
Roger
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Here is the reference from 'Archeologica Cambriensis'. You can see why I made the error.
"The house was tenanted from the mid C18: David Richards 1757, followed by his son; David Meredith in 1843, when part of the Mabws estate. Sold in 1888 to the Trawsgoed estate."
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Did you find anything in Llangwyryfon?
I think this may be synonymous with Llanygwryddon from the indentures and deeds,where Letitia Richards,widow is said to be in 1777(implying a death for David Richards between 1757 and 1777,if this is his widow)
There also seems to be a ptoperty called Tynyrhos in that parish("Twyn y Rhose"?)
Regards
Roger
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I have seen the will of David Richard of Llangwryfon dated 1771, wife's name Mary. It was witnessed by a James Richard.
In the morning I will open the Google Earth map of the area and pinpoint houses that I've seen mentioned as we've done our research. Just remembered that Edward Richard of the School left 5 properties in his will, one of which is named Bryn Perfedd.
I have also managed to track down the Penlan as mentioned in David Richards will of 1810. I have been looking at the house, Brynarth, which was occupied by a Richard family as late as 1910. This quote, shows that the two houses were close together.
"Oddi yma twy warchodfa natur Brynarth ymlaen heibio fferm Penlan, a nôl i'r eglwys. Bu'n daith hynod o ddiddorol. (BBC) (This Penlan, see David Richards, Mill, Will. 1810)
The will of Jane Richard, Lledrod continues to intrigue me. She leaves a legacy to Thomas Richard of Lletymoel. This house still exists. I'd love to know the name of Jane's brother that has 2 children named John and James. He isn't named and may have deceased before this date.
I also have seen Jenkin Richard's will from 1770 ... he was the occupant of Lletymoel. His will was witnessed by Morgan Richard.
More work to be done. Peter
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I didn't pick up on the brother having sons John and James............if it is the same part of the will I think it refers to "nephews John and Richard James"(i.e John James and Richard James with James being the maiden name of Jane).....I will recheck.
Regards
Roger
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Yes, error noted. There are 2 Jenkins, one Jenkin Richard and the other Jenkin James, Both have sons named David and James.
I've been thinking about the Rev. John Richard/s. The Williams, Lathan, Tomlinson states that he was born in Gwnnws. Never having great faith in their records, I was always a bit dubious. When I finally read the Rev's will naming the house as Bryn Issaf, finding the actual house on the map and, knowing now that the place seemed to attract Richards folk like a magnet, why haven't we been able to find any links to John and James, or possible members of their family; parents, siblings etcetera.
The Rev. John may have inherited Bryn Issaf from some member of the Richard family, unknown to us, and wasn't born or raised there.
We have now strayed with our search to Gwnnws and Llangwyryfon and are beginning to unearth Richard families that appear to be quite local and interconnected in the normal way, as opposed to the buying and selling of bits of land that we've seen in our search of Lledrod Upper parish.
What about gathering together all that we have on Richards that weren't involved with Bryn Issaf and see what we come up with.
Regards, Peter
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I was trying something of the sort with the following:
In the 1769 reference to David Richards,son and heir of Thomas Richards(deceased) of Strygos,it refers to previous tenures of Magdalen Richards,David Richards and Richard David.
Compare this with the 1721 reference to the grant by David Richard of Ynis Pervedd and his son Richard David to Thomas Richard of Bwlch y Ddwyallt.There is a 1712 will of Jenkin Howell of Bwlch y Ddwty Allt.
There is the 1722 will of David Richard of Clawdd Kerrig,Ystwyth whgich appears under Ystrad Meurig in the NLW search,in which he refers to his wife Magdalen Jenkin(daughter of Jenkin Howell?) and his father Richard Thomas.Perhaps he was known as Thomas Richard or had a son of that name.Either could then be the 1769 Thomas Richards?)
Perhaps the previous tenants of Strygos were a father and son related to this David.
It might be stretching then possibilities for Strygos to be synonymous with Ynys Pervedd.
Or I could just be going round in circles,still clutching those initial straws.
Regards
Roger
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There are links for the David Richard of 1722 will.He leaves a property called Pant y Ffynnon to his beloved wife(Magdalen Jenkin).He also mentions a brother Edward Richard.This I think is the Edward Richard of the 1753 will at Cwm Ffwrd,who gives his father as Richard Thomas and sister Margaret of Pant y Ffynnon.
The 1722 will mentions other properties and I will see if I can identify people involved.
Regards
Roger
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I have a note of a David Rees of Lledrod, dated 1638 that refers to the usual transfer of properties called Llwyn-y-malis, (now Llwynmalis), and Esker-rygos in our old stamping patch of Merllyd. Going by the very early date, could Esker-rygos be Strygos. There are no other properties in this area at the time excepting Ynys-Perfedd.
As I'm considerably slower than you in picking up and digesting information, bear with me whilst, as well as I deal with my ponderous searches, I battle with my new Windows 8.1.
Regards Peter.
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Interesting find re Esker-rygos.I'll see if I can find anything further.Give me Windows XP anytime.
Regards
Roger
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Thinking of obvious similarities to the phrase,I think Esgair y Gors is a good candidate,given as being in Upper Lledrod
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CGN/Lledrod/
Regards
Roger
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Yes, I think that we may be correct in our assumption. Many of the Scribes of those days were English and they usually wrote the names of places in their phonetic manner. The house is marked on my map as Esgair-y-gors. (badly written as Esgairygors it could have been seen as Estrygors and later changed to Strygos. There must be some negotiating document extant because the name changed to Strygos Fawr at some time.(Edward Richards, son of James, Ynys Ynyd, 225 acres in Llandyfrydog, Mona, changed to Ynys Fawr when an additional 50 acres were bought from the farm next door.)
Regards, Peter. (First PC was a Windows 3.2 ... I miss the whirring and clicking sound it made).
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The other property in the will of David Richard 1722,bequeathed with Clawdd Kerrig to his sister Margaret and his father Richard Thomas,is (Tyddyn) Llwyn Goffre,which appears synonymous with Llwynygoffre or Swyddffynnon Mill.
Regards
Roger
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While I can find further references to Llwynygofre etc. it is not clear there is a family relationship to the "Richards" of Bryn Isaf(aka Bryn Issa).There may well be one,but it is yet to be discovered.
Looking at nearby properties at the appropriate time we have,for instance:-
1765
Letticia Richards of Rhyd Llwyd, parish of Lledrod, co. Cardigan, widow, and Thomas Richards of Y Penbrin, parish of Lledrod, aforesaid gent;. 2. Richard Edwards of Navy Hall, parish of Lledrod aforesaid, gent. Grant for £10 of a seat or pew adjoining the reading desk or pulpit in the parish church of Lledrod and belonging to a tenement called Pant y Camddwr.
and,although dated 1777,the following refers back to 1762
Indenture, being a declaration by Morgan Harry of Fronfelen, p. Llanychaiarne, co. Card., gent., and Letitia Richards of p. Llanygrwyddon, co. Card., widow, that a fine had been levied at the Great Sessions for co. Card. on 14 Aug. 1762 by Elizabeth Richards, widow, the said Letitia Richards, Thomas Richards, gent. and Jane his wife, of two tmt's called Penbryn-issa alias Tythyn-y-bryn-merllyd, and Bryn-merllyd alias Tythyn-bryn-issa, and of a parcel of land called Gorse-glan-teify (60 a.), p. Lledrod, co. Card., to the use (as to the said parcel of land) of the said Morgan Harry in fee, but that no uses had been declared as to the said two tmt's, they therefore declared that the said fine should enure (as to the said two tmt's) to the use of William Davies of Penbrynn, p. Llanvihangel Lledrod, co. Card., gent., in fee simple. It recites that the said Elizabeth Richards, Thomas Richards and Jane his wife had all dec., and that the said two tmt's were the inheritance on the said William Davies.
The Thomas Richards referred to is a "gent" and likely to be owner rather than tenant.Perhaps also the Jane referred to is the one from the 1789 will(?).This Thomas Richards,I think,is of the family referred to previously,where a Thomas Richards is seen in Westminster.There must be a reasonable chance that John and James are of this family,either the sons of a Thomas Richards,or of a son of Thomas Richards(perhaps called John?).
The concern is whether the title to the properties passes to the William Davies referred to(I'm not sure what an inheritance ON William Davies means),and,if so,how it reverts to John Richards-or whether he has some other form of rights,short of ownership.
Regards
Roger
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I've been hunting down the houses mentioned in the will of David Richard, 1722. (Tythin-y-Clawdd Kerie, and Tythin Llwyn Goffre)
228
1761, March 3. LEASE for one year of the m’s and lands called Tythyn Y Cloddie Cerrig and Llwyn y Gofre, p. Sputty Ystraed Meyrick, both in the occupation of the said Mary Davies, the former property being on the north side of a lane from the great common called Craig yr Hendre to the river Meyrick, and the latter on the south side thereof.
In 1777, as per the will of Edward Richard, Schoolmaster, as well as being the owner of Swyddffynnon Mill, he is also shown as the owner of Bryn Perfedd, Ty-mawr and Pen Gwydion, (both in Swyddffynnon) and Bryn Garw.
220-1
1746, Sept. 28-9
1 Jane Morgan of p. Spytty Ystradmeirick, co. Card., widow
2 Thomas Richard of the village of Ystradmeirick in the said p., yeoman
LEASE AND RELEASE (being a mortgage for £60) of the m. and lands called Bryn Pervedd, lordship of Spytty, p. Spytty Ystradmeirick, within gr. Mevenidd, and belonging of late to the late dissolved monastery of Strata florida, one close of meadow thereunto adjoining, and liberty upon the commons thereunto adjoining and of cutting turfs upon the same, and deed to lead the uses of a fine thereof
Witnesses include Hugh Rice, clerk
Endorsed on No. 221 are:
1750-5
RECEIPTS by Thomas Richard and Edward Richard for interest, and receipt by Jane Morgan for £58 upon further security being a note of hand dated 16 Oct. 1755 and attested by Mr Hugh Rice, clerk
We are back to the quest for Thomas. This one, working with the owner of Bryn Perfedd, (Edward, Schoolmaster), is shown as a Yeoman of Ystradmeurig. We were suspicious of the Thomas Richard from Llandewi but he was always shown as either of Llandewi or Lledrod. Is he the one mentioned in 1765 as 'Gent', of "Penbrin" (The house above Bryn Issa is called Pen-bryn).
I must admit that the meshing of the two tribes of Richards doesn't appear to work.
Regards, Peter.
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Just remember that the father of David Richards of Strygos was named Thomas Richards. Have we looked closely at him as being one of the two Thomases that we have.
D.D. 1460. Indenture, dated i Aug. 1769, being a lease for a year (so that a grant by release might be made) from David Richards of Strygosfawr in the parish of Lledrod, CO. Cardigan, gent, (son and heir of Thomas Richards of the same place, gent.
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Looking again at your last post. Could the 1777 release that refers to 1762 that mentions a Jane and Thomas Richards, Gent, possibly be the Thomas Richards yeoman, and Jane Morgan, Widow, both of Ystradmeurig. (220-1, 1746 my post of today). A marriage between these two would explain their involvement with Bryn Issaf and introduce a possible couple that could be John and James' parents. We discounted the Thomas from Llandewi because he was too old and Thomas his son. too young. (He married to London).
Sorry for 'bits and pieces' posts but that's how my mind works.
Regards, Peter.
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I think the 1746 Thomas Richard is the father of Edward Richard(Ystrad Meurig).Thomas probably dies in the early 1750s(though I can't find a confident record).
This is a further reference
Release of the equity of redemption of the properties specified in Nos 220-1 of 28-9 Sept. 1746, and deed declaring ..., 1756, Oct. 28.
Level
File
Summary
1 Jane Morgan of p. Sputty Ystraed Meyrick, co. Card., widow. 2 Edward Richard of the village of Ystrad Meyrick in the said p. gent., son, heir ands administrator of Thomas Richard, late of the said village, yeoman, dec. Release of the equity of redemption of the properties specified in Nos 220-1 of 28-9 Sept. 1746, and deed declaring the uses of the fine specified therein. Witnesses: David Richard's of foes a blyddied, David Williams of Pen y graig, and Thomas Davies of Wernvelen.
This appears to imply a will,which I can't identify either.
Regards
Roger
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Going back to your post on the 1st page of this topic, (Regarding a will of 1722 for David Richard).
I have found a later will for the same man ... the 1722 seems to dispose of property to his wife, brother and cousin whereas the next will of 1727 gives details of the small bequests. Lo and behold, we find that he had 5 sons and a daughter!
The sons start with, as usual, a David, followed by William, Lewis, Thomas and Edward. The daughter is Jane. This gives us a bigger pool of possible fathers for John and James. (Remember that the closest note that we have for Bryn Issaf and the birthdates of John and James mention a Thomas and Jane).
regards, Peter.
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I would doubt that these are the same person.I don't think there is any sign of commonality or revocation.Surely it would be most unusual to have two published wills for the same person.I can't see immediately if there is a death date associated with the earlier one,but I will look again.
Regards
Roger
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Yes, it's suspicious ... just looking at the cash left shows that the 1727 David was not wealthy ... the 1722 David has property. However, if you look at Image 4 for the 1727 will you will see the name 'Magdalen'.
The entry is in Latin and the image is of poor quality but may be some confirmation of the completion of the disbursement of the estate.
If these two Davids are not the same person then we still have the addition of other Richards into the equation.
Have you noticed that most of the Richard family at this time were illiterate and that Edward Richard, School, is very often shown as a witness.
Regards, Peter
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Image 4 is the probate of the Will and it certainly mentions Magdalena (Sic) Richard.
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I think she is his wife,as the body of the will appoints his "dearly beloved wife" as sole executrix(without specifically naming her).The Latin includes ...testatrix......and it is reasonable to assume this is her also.
Regards
Roger
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We have 2 David Richard's of Ystradmeurig dying within 5 years of each other and both had wives named Magdalen. It doesn't give a property in the 1727 will either so gives us just about nothing to work on. Notice that the 1722 wife is named Magdalen Jenkins, and the 1727 one is named Magdalen Richards.
Regards Peter.
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Strictly speaking(if that applies) the 1727 will is for a Richard David not David Richard.
This gives the possibilities
1722- David Richard,wife Magdalen Jenkin,but would she have been known as Magdalen Richard(this is important because a Magdalen Richards is referred to in the indentures)
1727 Richard David,wife Magdalen,but wouldn't she be referred to as Magdalen David and not Magdalen Richard(though the children would have the "surname" Richard")
Regards
Roger
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I believe that if we apply strict criteria to these wills our task will become more difficult. In the 1722 Will, he is shown as David Richard, but he refers to his father as Richard Thomas. I see your point but where a will is concerned you can bet that anyone with a name containing Richard is a part of what we know of as the Richard/s family.
This document now becomes clearer.
D.D. 1460. Indenture, dated i Aug. 1769, being a lease for a year (so that a grant by release might be made) from David Richards of Strygosfawr in the parish of Lledrod, CO. Cardigan, gent, (son and heir of Thomas Richards of the same place, gent., deceased by Magdalen his wife) to James Lloyd of Mabus, co. Cardigan, esq., of messuages and lands in the said parish of Lledrod, called Strygos otherwise Strygos- fawr, and Twyn y rhose, and late in the tenures of Magdalen Richards, David Richards, Richard David and Thomas Jones. Witnesses : Wm. Lewis; David Jones; Richard PhiHpps. (note the Richard David).
regards, Peter
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I've been trying to distinguish the various Thomas Richard(s) records in the period of interest(approx1720-1780)
Gwnnws- a couple of records for a yeoman which I think can be ignored.
Caron-A gent of Bwlch y Ddwyallt in 1719 and 1721,and of Blaen yr Esg(a)ir in 1756
Ystrad Meurig-three records,1746,1755,1756,yeoman,the first associated with Bryn Pervedd .I assume this is the father of Edward Richard of the school.
Lledrod-This is a little more complicated.I think there are three here,two possibly father and son(using surname naming).All are "gents" I think.
1722-associated with Penbryn
1726-not specified
1738-associated with Bryn Issa
1754- associated with Hendre Rees
1757-associated with Bryn Issa
1762-associated with Bryn Issa(referred to in 1777 with Thomas and wife Jane,who are both deceased by 1777)
1764/5 -with Bryn Issa
1769(I)-associated with payment re Hendre Rees and a move to Westminster.Is the marriage in Westminster of a son(moved after his father died?) or a late other marriage,perhaps,if Jane has died(?) with Thomas himself also dying before 1777?
1769(II)-Strygos reference with David son of Thomas and Magdalen
1777-back reference to 1762(note also associated with Letitia Richards)
I think the 1769 references are mutually exclusive,meaning at least two Thomas Richards,though my logic is beginning to fail again with so many similar names.
Regards
Roger
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It also seems to me that the following are the same "Letitia"(possibly nee Parry 1837 marriage Llanrhystud as stated before)
1754-Wife of David Richards of Ffos y Bleiddiaid,associated with Edward Richard of Ystrad Meurig
1764 Letticia Richards of Rhyd Llwyd,associated with Thomas Richards of Penbrin.In the Ceredigion Archives a Rhyd Llwyd is associated with another early school at this time.
1777- Letitia Richards,widow of Llangwyryfon,associated with Thomas Richards and Jane.
Regards
Roger
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I have a "unified family" theory for all the main characters involved.It is a "work in progress",with the main problem being supportive dates,though the wills do show family relationships.
The "patriarch" of the family is David Richards whose will of 1756 is under Llandewi Brefi.I think he may be the David with wife Goley,referred to in 1694 and 1719(based on properties involved),perhaps given as "of Lledrod" for the majority of his life,even up to 1754.This identification in early life is not critical and has it's weaknesses.In his will his wife is Mary and his eldest son,Morgan has a daughter Mary.Further,The David of 1694 is described as yeoman,while David of the will in 1756 is a gent(?) with extensive properties to bequeath.His executor is his grandson Thomas(see below)
His first son,Morgan pre-deceases him.His will of 1749(clerk of "Llanddewi Ystradeny(modified)",Radnor) gives a Thomas as his second son,at this point under 21,with the guardianship of a Thomas Davies(clerk),brother in law to Morgan,and cross referenced in the 1756 will above.I would estimate Thomas birth as in the early 1730s or so as he has an elder brother Benjamin who is over 21 in 1749.
This Thomas is the future husband of Jane.He would be of the right age to be the father of John and James.(I bekieve John may be born 1756/7.He is given in a newspaper report as 75 at his death(though it may read 73).This age could also mean he is the Thomas who (re?) marries in Westminster.Thomas and Jane are given as both deceased by 1777.
His second son, Thomas,I propose has a son David,and these are the father(with wife Magdalen) and son referred to as "of Strygos Fawr".
His third son David,I propose is David of Ffos y Bleiddiad,with wife Letitia.This marriage I proposed as that of 1737,not incompatible with David being the youngest son of somebody already married by 1694.
Regards
Roger
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Internet Explorer problems, last night. As I typed, the letter was repeated ad-nausea whilst Explore Help loaded over and over until the whole lot froze. Seems OK now ... fingers crossed.
Congratulations on making some cohesive sense out of all the information that we've collected over the last few days. I always maintained that the Richard/s would all be related, one to the other and further, that Thomas and Jane would end up as John and James' parents. Proving it was another story. "Occam's Razor" was never better used.
I've searched everywhere for the first name, "Goley", without any success. I would hazard a guess that she was Mary Goley before marriage, Goley being quite a common surname right up to the present day.
I am also wondering where Edward Schoolmaster fits into the family. His father was named Thomas Richard, the Innkeeper at Ystrad and would have been of an age with David the Eldest. They may have been brothers and, like James following John to Llanerchymedd, this connection could have been the catalyst for David the eldest moving from his family area to Ystrad. Later, Edward Schoolmaster is shown to be a close friend of James Lloyd of Ffosybleiddiaid and leaves Swyddffynnon Mill to him in his will. (Not forgetting that all of the properties in Merllyd had once belonged to the Lloyd family). Edward is also involved with a Jane Morgan.
1746, Sept. 28-9
1 Jane Morgan of p. Spytty Ystradmeirick, co. Card., widow
2 Thomas Richard of the village of Ystradmeirick in the said p., yeoman
LEASE AND RELEASE (being a mortgage for £60) of the m. and lands called Bryn Pervedd, lordship of Spytty, p. Spytty Ystradmeirick, within gr. Mevenidd.
There is no indication of her age but she may have been a young widow. Can we see her as being the Jane of John and James mother? Did Morgan Richard also have a daughter named Jane?
I also had a 'gut feeling' that John and James had been orphaned whilst young and the death of his parents, and his brother moving away to Anglesey, may have been the reason why James also moved to Llanerchymedd. When John and James arrived in Llanerchymedd, the village was in a state of "boom" with production of rope and snuff being the main industries. On the death of his parents, Bryn Issaf would have been inherited by John, and we see from John's will that this indeed happened.
I think that we may take your "Unified Family" theory, (leaving it basically as it is), and simply try to add or subtract snippets that we find. All-in-all, I'm more than happy with the result ... well done both of us!
Regards from Peter
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I wish I had your overall confidence in the theory.It does seem reasonable that there is a "unified family",but where John and James fit in is a supposition-there is no evidence to support it currently.
It does seem appropriate that John would come from a branch with other "clerks".(Thomas Davies the guardian/brother in law is a "clerk" as well.I suspect he may be the father(or brother?) of the William Davies who appears in the indentures).
It would also be useful to find a family connection with Edward Richard(I don't suppose that Thomas,the second son of the patriarch is not as I suggested,but the Thomas, father of Edward Richard?If the patriarch is born say 1670,Thomas could be born 1690 and married 1710.What relationship this would mean with John,grandson of Thomas' brother Morgan(if such he be) is beyond me.I don't think it is likely,but the lack of dates for events makes things difficult.
The only snippet I can add at the moment is that David Richards of Ffos y Bleiddiad was a nephew of a Parry(either Rees or David) of Llidiadau,probably reinforcing the 1737 marriage to Letitia Parry
I'll see if I can identify Jane Morgan.
Now where did I put that razor?
Regards
Roger
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I.516
1683, April 7
BOND in the penalty of £20 from Maurice Richard and David Richard of p. Lledrod, co. Card., yeomen, to Edward Vaughan of Trowscoed, esq., for the observance by the obligors of the covenants contained in a pair of indentures of even date herewith, made between the same parties.
I've just been looking at the above entry and wondered whether the David Richard mentioned in this is the Patriarch, (before his marriage). This puts his activities in the area to the circa dates that you proposed in you last post. Abraham, (the brother of Edward Schoolmaster), was born in 1711 and this would suppose a birthdate for his father, Thomas Innkeeper, of around 1685. (Having his real date of birth, coupled with David's marriage date would give us an indication of whether Thomas was his son, or not, even though he is never mentioned in David's will).
Note that David Richard is described as a yeoman of Lledrod.
The next mention of the Patriarch David is in the following document of 1694 and it shows the same David as a Yeoman of Lledrod.
1694, Nov. 8
INDENTURE, being a lease for a year (so that a grant by release might be made) from David Richard of p. Lledrod, co. Card., yeoman, to Charles Pryse of Llwyn-y-kedni in the same p., gent., of the moiety or half of three parts of an ancient tmt called Tythyn-bryn-merllyd in gr. Mevenith, co. Card.
In the next entry, made the day after, we see that Goley is included. This indicates, all things considered, that they married between 1683 and 1694. The middle of this date-range would give the circa birth-date of Thomas Richard Innkeeper.
II.156
1694, Nov. 9
INDENTURE, being a mortgage for £40 from David Richard of p. Lledrod, co. Card., yeoman, and Goley his wife, to Charles Pryse of Llwyn-y-kedni in the same p., gent., of the moiety or half of three parts of an ancient tmt called Tythyn-bryn-merllyd in gr. Mevenith, co. Card., being formerly parcel of the possessions of the dissolved abbey of Strata Florida.
Definitively adding this guesswork to what we already have doesn't add up to much. Neither of Thomas's sons married and with the death of Edward Schoolmaster, that branch came to an end. The fact that Edward always seems to have a hand in the Richard family's wills may be because he was one of only a handful of people in the area that could read and write. (In 1850, out of a school attendance roll of 58, only 3 could read a bit of Welsh, none could read English and only a handful were able to write their names).
There is this intriguing entry for John, the son of James Richards.
Link.
RICHARDS , JOHN ( Iocyn Ddu ; 1795 -1864 ) ; b. at Llannerch-y-medd , son of James Richards , shopkeeper , and nephew of John Richards , cleric . it is said that they were kinsfolk of Edward Richard of Ystradmeurig .
If Thomas Innkeeper was the son of the Patriarch then this would be true.
I've searched Jane Morgan without result. No will for Thomas Innkeeper either ... damn!
regards from Peter.
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I'm at about the same point,running out of ideas too.Perhaps the patriarch and Thomas Richard,father of Edward,were brothers.
Regards
Roger
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As far as I know Edward Richard died unmarried and I can't find any evidence that his brother who died relatively young married either.I can't see any reference to sisters-so the only hope of finding a relationship with John and James(even if we confidently knew their parents) would be through Edward's parents,which seems a difficult prospect.
The only snippet I can find,which is slightly mysterious,assuming it is correct,is the following,which refers to a David Thomas "heir at law"(again assuming the correct Edward Richard).
Indenture, being a lease for a year (so that a grant by release might be made) from John Rice of Llandovery, co. Carm., yeoman (eldest son of David Rice of p. Llanavan, co. Card., dec., who was the eldest son of Hugh Rice of p. Lledrod, co. Card., clerk, dec.), Thomas David of p. Llanilar, co. Card., yeoman (eldest son of David Morgan of p. Sputty Ystrad Meirick, co. Card., gent., dec., by Catherine his wife, dec.), David Thomas of p. Sputty Ystrad Meirick, yeoman (heir at law of Edward Richard of same p., gent., dec.), Elizabeth Davies of p. Lledrod, co. Card., widow, and Richard Davies of p. Llanvihangel Lledrod, gent. (brother of William Davies of Penbrynn in same p., gent.) to Rev. David Williams, clerk, curate of Eglwys Newydd, co. Card., of a parcel of land called Gwar-y-fordd-las (8 a.), being part of a tmt called Bryn-merllyd, also parcels of land called Cae-gwyrglawdd-tan-y-fordd-las (8 a.), Cae-penddolwen-cae-issa (12 a.) and one-third part of a piece of bog land (60 a.) called Gorse-glan-teify, being parcels of a tmt called Pen-brin-merllyd, all being in p. Llanvihangel Lledrod, co. Card., but reserving to the said William Davies a right of turbary. Consideration, £200.
The phrase "heir at law" as far as I can tell implies a right through a blood relationship in the case of intestacy.
This is odd because there is a will for Edward in 1777,which makes no mention of David Thomas.The timing of various events is interesting.The will is written in February,Edward dies in March,the will is registered in April,the indentures are dated May and the probate is granted in June.
Perhaps,in my favourite phrase from Rootschat,this is a red herring barking up the wrong tree.
I wonder who David Thomas was?Sounds like he could be a patronymic son of Thomas(Richard?),(therefore ,otherewise,David Richard?)
Regards
Roger
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When Edward Richard died he left all of his property to the school at Ystradmeurig. (The mill at Swyddffynnon was left to James Lloyd of Mabws). The Heir at Law has to do all of the conveyancing so that the leases of the properties, and the rents from the properties, are all eventually in the hands of the school. The document you have appears to be a blanket re-negotiation of the leases. The Executors of the Will were his friends, Thomas Hughes, of Hendrefelen, and John Jones, surgeon, of Bryn-hope. The details of the will were drawn-up by James Lloyd of Mabws, a practicing Lawyer and life-long friend of Edward Richard.
Edward and his brother never married and they are recorded as being the only children of Thomas, innkeeper of the "Tafarn Ddu" at Ystradmeurig, and Gwenllian his wife. Thomas's Date of death has not yet been established but the following give clues to the circa date. The Inn changed name to The Trout and then to Tafarn y Brithill.
1746, Sept. 28-9
1 Jane Morgan of p. Spytty Ystradmeirick, co. Card., widow
2 Thomas Richard of the village of Ystradmeirick in the said p., yeoman
LEASE AND RELEASE (being a mortgage for £60) of the m. and lands called Bryn Pervedd, lordship of Spytty.
236
1751, Sept. 13
1 James Lloyd of Fôs y Bleidded, co. Card., esq.
2 Gwen Edward, widow and Edward Richard, schoolmaster, of p. Spytty Ystradmeiric
LEASE for the lives of the second party of the m. known by the name or sign of the Trout or Tafarn y Brithill, now in their occupation, village of Ytradmeiric,
(Gwen Edward could be Edward Richard's Mother).
223
1756, Oct. 28
1 Jane Morgan of p. Sputty Ystraed Meyrick, co. Card., widow
2 Edward Richard of the village of Ystrad Meyrick in the said p. gent., son, heir ands administrator of Thomas Richard, late of the said village, yeoman, dec.
(Mystery ... who is Jane Morgan ... guess at close relative of Morgan Richards)
(David Morgan, yeoman ... eldest son of David Morgan, Ystradmeurig)
We also have the Maurice Richard in tandem with David Richard, (yeoman) in 1683.
I didn't realize that women used the patronymic form. New search tool for me ... plus the razor.
Regards from Peter.
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I have found possible death records for Thomas(1772) and Jane(1776) in Westminster(sadly no wills)Could therefore the Thomas who married Lucy Walters of PallMall be a son of Thomas and Jane,and a brother of James and John(if they are of Thomas and Jane of course).I have not been able to trace Thomas and Lucy any further yet.Other parts of the family were here also at this time with Morgan's daughter Rachel,Thomas(senior?)'s sister marrying a Nathaniel Smith in 1767.
There is the possibility that the death records are just a coincidence of names,as they contain no details and there is the 1784 indenture still referring to "..Thomas Richards,late of Lledrod.."
Regards
Roger
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I remember that we visited these two Thomases before, the conclusion being that Thomas Senior was too old to be the parent of John and James and that Thomas Junior was too young. However, your last post set me off again. We have a tentative date of birth of C 1710 for Senior but I can't remember how we came to that conclusion. (Perhaps because he was shown as being a minor and being passed to a guardian on the death of his father, Morgan Richards).
If born in 1710 he would have fathered James at the age of 53, and that's why he was considered to be too old, but, having looked at the Rev. John Richards, (child at 58) and his son Michael of Parciau, (daughter at 54), and my father Michael, (daughter at 52), then it's quite possible that he could have been the father. When Jane died in 1776, John would have been at Oxford aged 16, James would still have been at Edward's School ... the Thomas Junior would have been their eldest son, and Thomas and Jane joining him and Lucy in London.
I'll have a search to see where Thomas Junior was educated; if at London then that would explain the meeting with Lucy and their presence there at that time.
There's quite a bit of Razor work going on but it's the only theory that I can put forward.
Regards from Peter.
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I had Thomas (senior) being born later,as in the will of his father Morgan(1749),he appoints guardians for the children,being under 21 presumably.As Benjamin was the eldest,I guessed Thomas being born early 1730s.He would have had to marry by,say,1751/2 to have a son marrying in 1770.It sounds a little tight but just possible.I did also estimate John's birth as 1756/7 from the reported age of 75 at his death.
Perhaps the Thomas of 1770 is from a different family altogether,just a coincidence of names.
Regards
Roger
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The Rev. John was definitely born in 1760 and died in 1832, (aged 72), as per his grave at St. Mary's, Llanerchymedd. He was ordained in 1783.
If Thomas was born in 1730's then that makes him an even better candidate. His death date of 1772 looks early, but his father died at an early age too. These were the days of epidemics and big cities were not the place to be. Even in Anglesey I see patterns in premature deaths in my own family. John, the 2nd son of the Rev. died at the age of 48 (1849); his wife Catherine died the year after(1850) aged 45. (Their child Elizabeth, aged 15, died in 1845).
The Rev's next child, Ann, Married to Humphrey Jones Evans, Surgeon, lost 3 children ... Robert, D 1840 aged 7; Ann Grace, D 1846 aged 12, Mary, D1845 aged 10. And so it goes on.
I think that coincidences are never quite as strong as this, and, if Occam's razor is used, well...
Regards from Peter
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I've had another read of that will for Morgan Richards, dated 1749. He was the Vicar of Llandewi Brefi and one of the guardians, Thomas Davies was the Vicar of Llanbadarn Fawr. I also noted that the age of emancipation at that time was 17. Now to find out when Thomas first appeared in Lledrod.
Let's hear it for the Reverends. Hurrah.
regards from Peter.
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Forgot to say that at the end of the will, when the guardians swear a Bond with the Bishop of Bangor, the eldest child of Morgan is not included, so, during those few days, he must have attained majority. Peter.
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I haven't found Jane Morgan's origins,but I'm convinced it is her will of 1763 (LlanbadarnFawr) at NLW.In it she names one of her sons John Rice(her other children are "Rices "also.)He appears,I believe,as John Rice of Llandovery in the 1777 indentures regarding Edward Richard.
As far as I can tell "Jane Morgan,widow"'s first appearance as such in the indentures is 1746.
Regards
Roger
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If a convention of the time was to refer to a woman by her maiden name even into widowhood,the following looks a possibility for the origins of Jane Morgan.
There is a will of 1722 for Morgan Lewis,Ystradmeurig in which he names his only daughter "Jaine".
(Image 5 is either very interesting or an administrative mistake)
While the will does not appear to be of an "asset rich" family,the following does appear to show a possible connection with the area of interest(dated 1684):-
Lewis ap Evan Lewis of p. Istrad Meirick, co. Card., yeoman. 2 Morgan Richard of p. Gwnnus and Richard David of p. Istrad meirick, yeomen. Settlement (previous to the marriage of Morgan Lewis, son and heir apparent of the first party, and Mary Morgan, daughter of the said Morgan Richard of the capital m. and lands called Bryn Pervedd, p. Itrad Meirick, within gr. Mevenydd, belonging of late unto the late dissolved monastery of Strata florida, one close of meadow thereunto adjoining, liberty upon the commons and mountains unto the said capital m. adjoining, and a place to cut turfs upon the same commons, the said meadow, commons and mountains being in lp Spytty, p.[es?]of Istrad Meirick and Spytty Ystwyth, together with one mansion house, etc., thereunto belonging.
Regards
Roger
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Good work Roger. I've also found another link between Jane Morgan and Ystradmeurig/Lledrod. In the addition to Edward Schoolmaster's will, amongst the list of names you will see John Rice, son of David Rice, son of Hugh Rice. clerk, dec.
This indenture shows the Rev. Hugh Rice.
II.166
1722, Sept. 29
INDENTURE, being an assignment from Thomas Richards of Penybrin-merllyd, p. Lledrod, co. Card., gent., by the direction of Thomas Evan Rees of said p. Lledrod, yeoman, to Hugh Rice of the same p., clerk, of a mortgage for £53 (granted on 2 Oct. 1716 by the said Thomas Evan Rees and Elizabeth his wife, to the said Thomas Richards) and of a further charge of £17 on a tmt called Tythin-brin-issa, comprising the one-fourth part of an ancient tmt called Bryn-merllyd in said p. Lledrod, being formerly parcel of the possessions of the dissolved monastery of Strata Florida. Memorandum (endorsed) that the principal and interest had been repaid to the said Hugh Rice on 29 Sept. 1740.
Because there is a Thomas Richard involved, (probably Thomas of the Inn), and yet another Rev. in the picture, things are getting interesting again.
Just received your last post. I'll have a better look at that after I've done my work for today. (Chopping logs and stacking same, mowing grass and storing potatoes for the winter etc.)
regards from Peter
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Sorry ... not the Thomas Innkeeper but the other one, Thomas Gent.
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I think I've referred to the following before,believing it may imply the existence of a will(hopefully not a bond) of the father of Edward Richard.I have not been able to identify such a will,which would obviously be very useful if it referred to other branches of the family.The reference is dated 1756.
A previous reference of 1746 does not refer to "..,.late...",so his death may be 1746-1756.As you probably know Gwen(llian) died in 1763-no sign of a will for her either.
Jane Morgan of p. Sputty Ystraed Meyrick, co. Card., widow. 2 Edward Richard of the village of Ystrad Meyrick in the said p. gent., son, heir ands administrator of Thomas Richard, late of the said village, yeoman, dec. Release of the equity of redemption of the properties specified in Nos 220-1 of 28-9 Sept. 1746, and deed declaring the uses of the fine specified therein. Witnesses: David Richard's of foes a blyddied, David Williams of Pen y graig, and Thomas Davies of Wernvelen.
Would it be worth contacting NLw to see if such a will exists and how it can be accessed?
Regards
Roger
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Ref you 10.22 post of today.
We can see that this Morgan Richard + Jane is not the Morgan Richards, Rev. + daughter Jane of Llandewi. Of interest are the surnames.
We know that David and Goley Richard were negotiating at around this time; the first mention of David and Maurice Richard was in 1683, ( the year before this document), and then David and Goley in 1694.
From the following you can see that the first individual ever mentioned in connection with the properties that are of interest to us is a Thomas Lewis, Lledrod, yeoman
1658, Nov. 24
INDENTURE, (counterpart), being a grant from John Vaughan of Trowscoed, co. Card., esq., to Thomas Lewis of p. Lledrod, co. Card., yeoman, of a tmt called Tythin-y-bryn-issa and two parcels of land called Ynis-y-garne and Ynis-y-bervedd, being three-eighths of an ancient tmt called Bryn-merllyd in said p. Lledrod and in gr. Mevenith, and parcel of the possessions of the dissolved monastery of Strata Florida, but reserving to the grantor all minerals, a perpetual yearly rent of 37s.6, and suit at Swydd-y-ffynnon mill. Witnesses: Edward Vaughan; James Vaughan; James Stedman.
Perhaps there is a link between Thomas Lewis and the Lewis ap Evan Lewis mentioned in your 10.22 doc. A marriage settlement is mentioned and a Richard David, yeoman is involved as well as Morgan Richard and his daughter Mary, (Bride) and Morgan Lewis, (Groom).
Regards Peter.
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I think it likely that the David Richard could be the one from the 1727 will and the 1719 reference
Indenture, being a lease for a year (so that a grant by release might be made) from Charles Pryse of Rhandir, p. Llan-y-grwyddon, co. Card., gent., David Richard of Ynis-pervedd, p. Lledrod, co. Card., yeoman, and his son and heir-apparent Richard David, to Thomas Richard of Bwlch-y-ddwyallt, p. Caron, co. Card., gent., of a mortgage for £40 (granted on 9 Nov. 1694 by the said David Richard and Goley his wife.
I have sent an e-mail as per your PM.
Regards
Roger
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Another possible view(I think):-
I've always wondered who the William Davies was,who is listed in 1777 as having hereditary rights in the properties of interest.He has a brother Richard listed at the same time.
These brothers appear to be listed as Davis in 1772,and I wonder,by extension,if they were originally David?
William Davies in 1777 appears to have the rights because Thomas and Jane(and Letitia-possible wife of David of Ffos y Bleidddiad) and an Elizabeth Richards are all deceased.
We have ascribed Thomas to be the son of Morgan Richards(surname naming)
Perhaps William and Richard were patronymically named sons of David of Ffos,therefore also implying a family relationship between David and Thomas as I speculated before,both being sons of Morgan.This would imply different forms of naming of the children of two brothers-but who knows?
The other possibility I am working on is that William and Richard Davies are related(sons) to the Rev Thomas Davies,brother in law and guardian.
Regards
Roger
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I spent quite some time yesterday going through any will for anyone named Richard, (from the areas that we know), without stumbling upon anything of great interest. I have also been trying to weed out anything we have already that may be the proverbial "red herring". Unfortunately, verything is linked one to the other in some way and your last post is a good example.
The guardians of Morgan Richard's, (Llandewi), were the Rev.Thomas Davies and his brother, Daniel Davies. Thomas is stated as being Morgan's son in law in his will of 1749. The Davies that you have could be the Rev. Thomas' offspring and therefore related by marriage.
I'm also trying to form some sort of timeline for Ynys/Bryn Perfedd, starting in 1637, when Evan David first took possession. I found another transfer yesterday and now have enough entries to simplify who was there, and when.
Everyone that ever leased the place was named or related to one of our listed Richard/s folk and it may be one of these that branched out to provide the better known Richard/s scions, David of Ffos etc.
The marriage of Morgan Richard's Daughter Mary to Morgan Lewis, with detail from 1658 is linked to the following, found yesterday.
219
1686, Sept. 29
1 Morgan John of p. Gwnnus, co. Card., gent., and David Morgan, his eldest son
2 Lewis ap Evan Lewis of p. Istrad Meiricke, and Morgan Lewis, his son
QUITCLAIM of the capital m. and lands called Tyddyn Bryn y Pervedd, p. Istrad Meiricke, and of one close of meadow thereunto adjoining, liberty upon the commons and mountains to the said capital m. adjoining, and to a place to cut turfs upon the same commons, the said meadow, commons and mountains being in the lordship of Spittie, p. Istrad Meiricke.
We're lucky that we have details from so far back in time but the name changes are a pain in the Archive!
Regards from Peter.
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A possibility for the identities of "Maurice Richard and David Richard" of the 1683 indenture,may be yet another(groan) David Richard-this time of the 1688 will(Lledrod).Although not specified he lists a Mary Richard(sister) and a number of males,who I assume to be brothers,including a "Morris"(also appointed as executor/guardian).
Regards
Roger
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Yes, I've seen this will. Of interest are mentions of Thomas, Edward and Oliver, as well as Morris. (there is Edward, the son, who may not be the same person). The daughter looks to be called Ranna but, like the property mentioned as Y ... ....llwid, is so difficult to read as to be of no use in pinpointing this David Richard.
In the 1721 will of Jenkin Richard (Llangwyryfon), there is also a Morris, (his brother), and sisters Mary and Margaret.
( Curiosity - I see that Evan Roos is the Executor, and David Roos is a witness. You may be familiar with the Roos family of Amlwch, Lawyers and businessmen, very influential in the copper and shipping trade as well. They were reputedly from Holland and arrived during the 1500's. James' son Edward, married Maria Roos. The name is common here as Röös)
Regards from Peter.
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I'll re read the will to see if I can identify the property.I suspect the name is Rees not Roos.
Also the daughter is probably Hanna.
Regards
Roger
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I can't see a property mentioned.If you are referring to the recital at the beginning,I think it says "....David Richard of the parishe of Llanvihngel Lletherod...."
Regards
Roger
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The property that I refer to comes after, " of the lands called" ...then it's the first words of the 18th line. Now that you've shown that her name was Hanna, I can read the whole thing a lot easier; what looks like the letter 'R' throughout the will is actually 'H' .
I thought that the witness was Roos, because the name appears in the will as executor, written to look like Roos. However, I see that the scribe has written on his behalf as a witness, and the strange squiggle alongside is actually Rees's mark.
Regards, Peter.
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I can't quite be sure,but I suspect it's a variant of bryn merllyd,possibly bron mertllwid or similar.
Regards
Roger
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I've found the place .... Bronwenllwyd. It still exists and is a short distance from Bryn Issaf etc. (Go west and up a bit).
Regards Peter.
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I came across the following dated 1920
Summary
Report of the result of an inspection of the benefice of Llangwyryfon, co. Card. and Diocese of St Davids, made in accordance with the provisions of the Ecclesiastical Dilapidations Act 1871, by F. Garnons Williams, Diocesan Surveyor. The buildings of the benefice comprise The Vicarage, Bryngader Farm in p. Llanilar, and Bryn issa Farm in p. Lledrod.
The benefice of Llangwyryfon comprises Llanilar with Rhostie,Llangwyryfon with Llanfihangel Lledrod and Llanwnnws.
Looking at the CCED database for Llanilar and Llangwyryfon there is an Owen Owen(s),presumably the Owen F Owen(s) you referred to in another thread.
With the references in indentures finishing 1777,I wonder with John Richards going into the Ministry not long after(?),perhaps some informal arrangement happened with the diocese for occupation.
Regards
Roger
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All that I remember is that in Edward Richard's will he left quite a lot of property to the school at Ystradmeurig. In addition to that bequest there were other bequests pre-dating his death that may have made provision for the Church to use other properties, (Bryn Issaf may have been one of them). The Rev. Owen Owen was recorded as living there in 1798 and he may have been a retired Clerk or the actual Vicar of the combined parishes of the area. (Rev. John was the Vicar of the parish of Llanerchymedd but also the Vicar of 5 other parishes).
Here is just one of those bequests.
1757. Edward Richards, Schoolmaster. Accordingly in 1757 he gave to the Bishop of St Davids, Viscount Lisburne, William Powell, clerk, of Nanteos, James Lloyd of Mabws, and Thomas Hughes of Hendrefelin, in trust, 'the messuage, tenement and lands, with the appurtenances, commonly called Bryn-pervedd, situate in the lordship of Sputty,' and other properties to pay a schoolmaster, etc....
I agree with you in thinking that the church, and the school at Ystradmeurig, through Edward Richard, had a finger in John becoming a cleric. Living in a place like Bryn Issa he must have had a helping hand to manage an Oxford education. (He isn't referred to as 'pauper' or 'plebian' in Alumni Oxfordiensis).
Regards, Peter
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P.S. to my last paragraph. 1757 was also the date that David Richards moved into Ffosybleiddiaid.
Regards, Peter
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I wonder if there is any relationship due to timing re the 1756 will of David Richards?
On a separate note I can see the CCED record for John Richards given as 1808-1826 Llnerchymedd-has he been identified outside of this time frame?
Regards
Roger
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[Born at Bryn Isaf, Lledrod, Cardigan. It is said that he was ordained at the Bishop's Palace at Abergwilli, Carmarthen on the 24th. of August, 1783. He took up residence at Llanerchymedd, (perhaps at Ty-Coch, 8 High Street, a property that appears in his will), and presumably lived there until his marriage to Ann Parry.]
This is the entry that I have for the Rev. John. I know the entries for 1808 and 1826 intimately; they were my basis for disbelieving that he obtained a degree at Oxford. The entries are from the Clerical list of Wales and show that he was educated to 'Lit' standard, meaning that he was without a degree but that he was educated enough to be a priest. The only time that he is referred to with a degree, (BA), is on his burial tablet inside St. Mary's Church, and later, on the gravestones of his family. (The son, or daughter, of the Rev. John Richards, M.A.)
Other entries that I have are as follows.
Extract from the "Cambro-Briton" of 7th. March, 1820.
"The other officers were chosen for the present year and the Rev. John Richards of Anglesey was proposed as an Honourable Member and as Critic of the Society, on which occasion an address from that Gentleman was read and deservedly applauded for the critical ability which it disclosed."
Extract from Archaeologi Cambriensis. John Skinner, 1808.
"I here had to regret the loss of my walking stick; I shrewdly suspected that the Cleric, (Rev. John Richards), had taken a fancy to it, there being no other person in the churchyard excepting our own party. This gentleman seems to have paid a good deal of attention to the Antiquities, but superstition is not confined to the ignorant and illiterate. He believes in fairies and stated that he had chased them away from the churchyard many times. !"
He is sometimes referred to as being a guarantor as to the good character of others; mentions in Druidic papers but never with a degree after his name. He began his Clerical duties at Llanerchymedd in 1784, shortly after his ordination at Abergwilli.
On the other point that you mention. Edward schoolmaster was the lifelong friend of James Lloyd of Mabws. Both were, according to various reports, very influential in the area. I thought that David Richards moved to Ffos in 1757 but I see a doc where he is stated as being of Ffos, dated 1754.
A separate issue. I'm still leaning towards Thomas, (son of Morgan Richards, son of the Rev. David Richards of Llandewi, passed to the Rev. Davies and ending up in a house that, perhaps after the date of 1756, belonged to the Church, or Ystradmeurig School), as being the father of John and James. The dates that we have fit the narrative and if Jane, the mother, died shortly after the birth of James then Thomas, as a widower with at least 2 children, would re-marry as soon as possible, as was the style in those days. James' son, John was educated at Ystradmeurig school and he started working at the Customs House in Liverpool at the age of 12. The 6 year education period would mean that from 1769 to 1775, James himself, would have been at the school, (John at Oxford), neither being dependent on their parents for sustenance. We don't know where the Rev Richard of Llandewi was born. He may be the link to the other Richard/s in our area.
Regards from Peter.
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Another very long shot-I don't suppose "Customs and Excise" was a profession that ran through the family?
Release. David Richards of the parish of Lledrod, Gent, and Richard Richards of Lledrod parish Cardiganshire, County Officer of Excise in the first part, and Jenkin Jones of the parish of Lledrod, Gent., in the second. In consideration of £140 the Richards released to Jenkin Jones the water grist mill with appurtenances called Lledrod Mill.
1 March 1786
There is a death record for Richard Richards,Lledrod 1812 but no age.I can't find a will nor any other reference to him.
Regards
Roger
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Yes, I noticed that entry for Richard Richards but assumed that he wasn't one of "ours" but an official from Cardigan or even Aberystwyth. There are no other Customs Officers in the family but see the following entry in my tree for James Richards, the 5th child of James, Bryn Issa.
[James was prosecuted in 1860 by H.M.Customs and Excise for adulterating tobacco with lime, (231 lbs of tobacco plus 933 lbs of lime; ordered to be destroyed); he was also fined.£75.]
His uncle John, the ex-customs officer was living in Llanerchymedd at that time and I wonder whether it was him that "shopped" him!
The major pattern in the family is, of course, farming; followed by Clerics, including the marriages of female Richards to Clerics. There is also a hint of a "Clerical Mafioso" at work in the early family. Michael, 2nd son of Rev. John, was the tenant of 600 acres at Parciau. Resident at Parciau at that time was the Rev. Williams, Marquis of Anglesey's family. John's daughter Anne married Humphrey Jones Evans the surgeon, his father was the vicar of Heneglwys, and so on.
Regards from Peter.
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I have found a slightly earlier connection of the Richards family with Middlesex.There is a 1765 will for Benjamin Richards,St George Hanover Square,in which he bequeaths all his personal estate of whatever kind(sadly not specified),to his brother Thomas,with proviso for his sisters Mary and Rachael(sic).This is the family of Morgan Richards.This also means that Benjamin must have died aged 33 approx. as he was just leaving his minority in the 1749 will of his father Morgan.
I'll see if I can find any earlier connections.
Regards
Rogeer
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This new information adds more credence to my comments in the last para. of my yesterdays' 14.32 post. (I have 2 members of the Richards family living at Hanover Square in the 1920's ... no connection except that they both, eventually, became Lawyers).
I wonder what came first ... the move to London and then the meeting with Lucy, or whether they met and married at Lledrod and then moved to London. The former seems more probable as we see Benjamin dying in 1765 so he was already there. Hanover Square suggests a change of fortune for someone ... was Lucy English and had Benjamin already married into her family?
I'd like to know what Thomas was doing in Lledrod. He's the only member of the family there at this time. Was he educated at the Edward School and, heavens above, was he a Cleric as was his Grandfather, guardian and eldest son?
So many hypotheses but one may be close to the mark. There are other similar scenarios in the Richards family.
regards from Peter.
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I don't know whether this is a valid connection or not:-
You have the first mention of "Bryn Issa" associated with a Thomas Lewis in 1658.
There is a will of 1695 for Thomas Lewis,gent,Llanddewi Brefi.While I can't see Bryn Issa mentioned he does leave Tyddyn y Rhyd Lwid in Lledrod to his eldest son John Thomas.
There was the association later of Letitia Richards,widow and Thomas Richards of Penybrin Merllyd with Rhyd Lwyd,which was also the site of a school as mentioned previously.
Regards
Roger
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1658, Nov. 24
INDENTURE, (counterpart), being a grant from John Vaughan of Trowscoed, co. Card., esq., to Thomas Lewis of p. Lledrod, co. Card., yeoman, of a tmt called Tythin-y-bryn-issa and two parcels of land called Ynis-y-garne and Ynis-y-bervedd, being three-eighths of an ancient tmt called Bryn-merllyd in said p. Lledrod and in gr. Mevenith.
We can see that this person is Thomas Lewis, of Lledrod, yeoman and is not the same person as the Thomas Lewis in the 1695 Will. By 1695 the properties had changed hands 3 or 4 times.
The subject of the School at Rhyd Llwyd is more complicated. I can't remember the exact story but the school was established at the time that the Ystrad school was opened. A beneficiary financed the school and left funds for it to continue after her death. A legal problem cropped up with those arrangements and was resolved by setting up a trust, with a board to determine how funds were to be allocated. Perhaps the school was later amalgamated with the Edward Richard school and, as per the 1765 bequest of Edward would have needed a trustee to facilitate the management of the properties. Leticia may have been one of the trustees.
The last "owner" of Bryn Issaf, before Thomas and Jane, was Edward Richard, as per his Bequest of 1765.
[Bryn-pervedd, situate in the lordship of Sputty,' and other properties to pay a schoolmaster etc.]
Here is one of your earlier posts.
1769(I)-associated with payment re Hendre Rees and a move to Westminster. Is the marriage in Westminster of a son(moved after his father died?) or a late other marriage, perhaps, if Jane has died(?) with Thomas himself also dying before 1777?
regards from Peter.
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I have been looking for earlier evidence of Thomas Richards in London.There is a Thomas as witness to the marriage of Rachael in 1767,and it looks like he signed as executor of Benjamin's will there in 1765.Neither of these guarantee of course that he was resident at the time.Having recognised the possibility that he was,I have looked for earlier deaths Of Jane Richards that would make sense if he was the Thomas who married Lucy Walters in 1770.There are two reasonable candidates,one in 1763 and one in 1765.The earlier date might bring into question James birth place so the second looks more likely(?).
Regards
Roger
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I've been doing the same thing here without result. I just don't have the search engine or the knowledge to sort out the correct people from the multitude. Damn it.
Regards from Peter.
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I've been looking for any other wills than Benjamin's,associated with the children of Morgan Richards and their partners,but so far without success.I have not heard anything,either,from NLW re a will for Edward Richard's father.
I share your frustration with the names,mine centers around lack of dates to add structure.
I still favour John and James being the sons of Thomas and Jane,but can find no direct supporting evidence.
Regards
Roger
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The two possible dates that you have for Jane ... were they for deaths in Lledrod or in Westminster? (Even the date of 1765 means that James was only 3 years old when she died).
We know that Thomas was in London re his brother, Benjamin's, will in 1765. (Benjamin must have been a bachelor as Thomas appears to be his next of kin).The journey from Lledrod to London in those days was quite a trip and I can't visualize Jane, with infant James in tow, making such a journey. (We often read that Lledrod and Ystradmeurig, were isolated communities, difficult to get to and just as difficult to get out of).
We have a clear line from Thomas back to his grandfather David, his father, Morgan, and three of the siblings in London, (with contact between each other).
I am tempted to take that as of some value; the little details and dates will probably always be points of conjecture but the basic facts remain. Notwithstanding our prolonged scrutiny of anyone named Richard/s in the area, the reading of their documents and wills etc., we end up with this relatively simple blood-line.
The Rev. David Richard's forebears may have been related to the folk at Lledrod and Ystradmeurig, (he appears to be the same age as Thomas,( the father of Edward Richard, schoolmaster, perhaps his brother). We'll never know.
They have started showing, "Who do you think you are" here- the Swedish version. Oh dear ... records beautifully written, easily found and accessible without payment. In the Parish Registers when someone moves into or out of a house, it's recorded, the same for moving out of the area. The new area records them as arriving, their profession and any relevant death information and causes. Illegitimate children have the suspected father named, suicides, fatal accidents and plague.
Just great!
Regards from Peter.
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The records are from Westminster,but there are no details of age or address,which makes them a guess.I can't find a record at the moment for either Cardiganshire or Rasdnorshire that would fit.I have been trying to find out what may have happened to Mary Richards,the sister.We have Benjamin,Thomas and Rachel(possibly born circa 1746/7),all in London circa 1765-7.
Regards
Roger
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Sabbatical has ended. No advancement on the London connection but a surprise discovery when searching Llandewi Brevi.
A Bond dated 1721 regarding a David Richard, yeoman of Llandewi, deceased. the bond is drawn by a Mary Parry in which she promises to safeguard the assets of David's estate and to pass them on to his minor son, David Richard, and that she will act as his guardian until that date.
There is no address or age given for David senior: he appears to be without a wife at this date but, with a son below the age of 17, it looks like yet another case of premature death.
If David junior is, (as was Benjamin when his father died), just below 17 in 1721, I would suggest that David junior is our Rev. David Richard of Llandewi Brevi. His first child, Elizabeth, would have been born circa 1730/1. The Rev. David, if born in the earliest range of possibility, (1705), could easily have married and had children by the early 1730's.
There is a blood-line of premature deaths in this family, starting with the 1st David dying in 1721, with a minor child still living. Skip one. Then there is Morgan Richard that died with 4 minor children and then we have Thomas too, (plus his wife Jane), dying with 2 minor children.
Once again, we have no positive proof that the latest David is the father of the Rev. David but he's certainly a good enough candidate to "pencil" in.
This latest link to Llandewi spoils any attempt to link the other Richard/s families of Lledrod and Ystrad together but, at the back of my mind is some sneaky suspicion that this David was born circa 1680, as was Thomas, the father of Edward Richard.
"The Rev. John was said to be kin of Edward Richard of Ystradmeurig school".
Check my thoughts. Regards from Peter.
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I'm struggling to read that bond with quite the same interpretation.
Firstly,it is in the name of Richard David.
The David Richard referred to is "..the infant son of ??..." It might say " R David",but I am not sure.
If you are referring to the David Richards of Llandewibrefi of the 1756 will,I'm not aware he was a Reverend,though his eldest son Morgan was.
The David of the current bond,as an infant in 1721, would have been born 1715-1721(?),and cannot be the David of the 1756 will,as his son Morgan had several children starting circa 1730.
As usual the plethora of similar names makes things very difficult,particularly in the absence of birth/baptism dates.
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Yes,my rusty grey matter letting me down.
The bond is for Richard David but the child is David Richard. The error made with the Rev. title is to give it to the wrong chap. As i said in my last post, the child David could have been born as early as 1705 and could have been the father of the Rev. Morgan Richard.
Regards Peter
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I'm also beginning to question the identity(or possibly the number) of Thomas Richard(s) associated with the various records(groan).
There are records in the following years 1722,1738,1764,1777(refers to Thomas and Jane deceased,who we had identified as synonymous with Thomas of Parliament St. Margaret Westminster),but also now,I find,1780 and 1784"of Lledrod"(who appears to be the son of Morgan Richards/grandson of David of the 1756 will).
Indenture, being a lease for a year (so that a grant by release might be made) from Thomas Richards of ..., 1780, Mar. 9.
Level
File.
Summary
Indenture, being a lease for a year (so that a grant by release might be made) from Thomas Richards of p. Lledrod, co. Card. (second son of Morgan Richards of p. Llanddewy Ystradeny, co. Rad., clerk, dec.) to Thomas Jones of Carmarthen, gent., of a tmt called Hendre Rees, p. Llanilar, co. Card.
There are other anomalies I haven't resolved yet either(e.g. the appearance of a Lucy Richards as a sister to Rachel in an indenture when a Mary might have been expected).
Regards
Roger
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II.229
1754, Sept. 10
INDENTURE, being a grant from David Richards of p. Llanddewy Brevy, co. Card., gent., to Thomas Davies of p. Llanbadarnfawr, co. Rad., clerk, of a tmt called Hendre Rees, p. Llanilar, co. Card., on trust for the said David Richards for his life, with remainder to Thomas Richards of p. Lledrod, co. Card., (second son of Morgan Richards of p. Llanddewy Ystradeny, co. Rad., clerk, dec., who was the eldest son of the said David Richards) and his issue, with similar remainders in succession to Rachel Richards and Lucy Richards, the dau’s of the said Morgan Richards, dec.
We can see that this document shows Morgan Richards with his two daughters, Rachel and LUCY.
Dated 1754, this predates the reference to Thomas marrying a Lucy in London. Perhaps we can ignore the 2 entries that show Thomas as 'late' of Lledrod and the next doc that shows Thomas, Jane and Elizabeth Richards as 'dec'. We haven't allowed for erroneous entries in the docs that we've looked at. The above is a fine example of us being "led down the garden path".
It means that I can now mention an entry from 1773 recording the birth of a child, Lucy, to Thomas and Jane Richard of Westminster.
This adds validity to your last post that shows Thomas still alive in 1780.
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The problem with a Lucy being named as Rachel's sister in 1754 is that in all the wills she is referred to as Mary
1749 Morgan Richards' daughter
1756 David Richards' grand daughter
1765 Benjamin Richards' sister
As to Thomas,the position is equally unclear.
The 1780/1784 reference gives a Thomas "..late of Lledrod,then of Parliament Street.."I don't know if it is significant that it does not say "..now of..".However it is Thomas Richards of Parliament St who marries Lucy Walters in 1770.Clearly he cannot be the father of Lucy in 1773 with Jane(I think this Lucy dies aged two months).
There are a couple of possibilities
1.This Thomas/Jane are just a coincidence.
2.There is a father and son both named Thomas.The father is married to Jane,and they may be the parents of Lucy in 1773,but both die before 1777,consistent with the indenture reference.
The son marries Lucy Walters and is alive in 1784.
This would also imply that Jane was probably born at the earliest 1730(aged 43 at Lucy's birth),but we can't read anything re Thomas' age into that.Does it hint that the Thomas of the 1722 indenture(Penybryn Merllyd),who must have been born circa 1700 is yet another,as otherwise there is a 30 year age gap between Thomas and Jane.
Regards
Roger
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I agree with you regarding the birth of a new Lucy in 1773. Just one of those name coincidences and nothing to do with our family. How strange that the error in the 1754 Indenture exchanges the name from Mary to Lucy.
We have information on the children of the Rev. David as follows ...
Elizabeth, married to James Morrice
Morgan, married to Margaret
Gwen, married to the Rev. Thomas Davies.
We have nothing on the son, Thomas Richards except that we can guess a DoB at 1710/15. We can say with certainty that he isn't the Thomas of the 1722 Indenture. however, he may be the Thomas, (late of Lledrod), that dies before 1777. (He may also be the Thomas who is shown in negotiations for Bryn Issaf, thus causing us some head thumping).This doesn't mean that he interferes with our Thomas (+ Jane) of Bryn Issaf who is shown to marry Lucy Walters and is still alive in later entries.
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Ignore that last post ... I'm looking for the Thomas, in the company of Elizabeth Richards and Leticia Richards that were shown linked to Bryn Issaf and shown as deceased. Mixed up my line of thought after finding a will of 1761 for a Thomas Richards. It used to be Davids, now it's Thomases.
Apologies from me.
Just picked up my train of thought again. The will of 1761 is for Thomas Richard of Caron. He has a daughter named Elizabeth. Leticia was David of Ffos' wife ? This may have been the remnant of an earlier negotiation and nothing to indicate who was actually living there at the time.
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Here is one possible view of the Thomas Richards "of Lledrod"?
Thomas,son of Morgan,described as "late of Lledrod","then of Westminster".I think the "late" only implies"previously".Benjamin,his brother,was born early 1730s,so Thomas would be mid to late 1730s making him a candidate for marrying Lucy Walters in 1770 and still being alive in 1784.
Thomas,husband of Jane,dying before 1777.
He could be Thomas,son of David(1756 will),brother of Morgan.Morgan had children approx. 1730,therefore born 1700-1710? A brother of similar age would be a candidate for dying "before 1777.
Thomas of the 1722 indenture.Unlikely to be the Thomas immediately above,But possibly a brother of David(1756 will).
Thomas,father of David of Strygos(1769 reference)? None of the above?
Regards
Roger
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Yes, that looks like the correct order for the two Thomases. In my search for an alternative Thomas, (the search that crossed my wires), I noticed on the indenture that mentions Lucy in 1754 that Thomas, the son of Morgan Richards, moves into Hendre Rees (sic) (Rhys), in Llanilar.
This would mean that Thomas, the brother of Morgan was the one living at Bryn Issaf with his wife Jane. (A clear separation of the two at last.)
II.229
1754, Sept. 10
INDENTURE, being a grant from David Richards of p. Llanddewy Brevy, co. Card., gent., to Thomas Davies of p. Llanbadarnfawr, co. Rad., clerk, of a tmt called Hendre Rees, p. Llanilar, co. Card., on trust for the said David Richards for his life, with remainder to Thomas Richards of p. Lledrod, co. Card., (second son of Morgan Richards of p. Llanddewy Ystradeny, co. Rad., clerk, dec., who was the eldest son of the said David Richards) and his issue, with similar remainders in succession to Rachel Richards and Lucy Richards, the dau’s of the said Morgan Richards, dec.
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I had just about finished a convoluted post with an interesting set of connections when I lost it all to a web page error.I'll try again shortly,but will be out from approx. 1700-2100.
Regards
Roger
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This still needs some work but there looks to be interesting connection here.
In 1711 there is a 20 year lease to Jenkin Howell of Gwnhafdre for Bwlch y Ddwy Allt.
Gwnhafdre is the property "intermediate" between Ffos y Bleidddiad and Esgair Y Gors("Strygos"?)
In 1712 there is a will of Jenkin Howell of Bwlch y Ddwy Allt,in which he mentions Thomas Evan as his brother-in-law
In 1721 there is a grant from David Richard of Ynis Pervedd,wife Goley,son Richard David) to Thomas Richard of Bwlch y Ddwy Allt of the equity of redemption re Tythyn y bryn merllyd.
In 1722 there is the will of David Richard of Clawdd Kerrig(and Llwyn Goffre) whose wife is Magdalen Jenkin-I have previously speculated that she might be the daughter of Jenkin Howell)
In 1735 there is a will of Thomas Evan of Gwnhafdre
(possibly the fatal flaw here-a "Thomas Evan" of Lledrod,presumably still alive(related to Thomas of 1735?)
In 1738 an indenture from,amongst others,Thomas Evan To Thomas Richard re Tythin Bryn Issa and Bryn Merllyd,culminating in 1739 with a "final concord",releasing to Thomas Richard the two messuages and 456 a. of land in Lledrod.
I hadn't spotted the possible "fatal flaw" until I was formalising the data.Nevertheless,the 1739 "final concord" is interesting in it's own right.
Regards
Roger
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First, ref my last post. This means that John and James were not born at Bryn Issaf. This place of birth was an "educated guess" with the info that John had inherited this property. The other place of birth would be Gwnnws, as proposed in the Williams, Latham, Tomlinson entry. (unreliable). Looking at the indenture it would appear that they would have been born at Llanilar, where Thomas of 1734 is living. If Thomas the grandfather is living at Bryn Issaf, dies in 'before 1777' and then leaves Bryn Issaf to his son Thomas ... with his death, the property would then be inherited by John.
I was working on just such a convoluted set of 'connections' as yours and have a bit to add to your work in progress.
A will of Thomas Richards of Bwlch y Dwyallt dated 1761, (quoted in an earlier post of mine) with a son, Richard Richards and a daughter, Elizabeth. (There is an interesting line that states that they lose their inheritance if they cease to live together).
A will of David Richard of Ysbyty Ystwyth dated 1677 with an eldest son Thomas Richard; a second son Morgan Thomas, and a youngest son David Thomas. Thomas Richard is left Tythin Y Clawdd Kerrig and Tythin Llwyn Goffre. The second son is left Tythin y pant Ffynnon.
Regards, Peter.
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I'm not familiar with the "unreliable" data and 1734 indenture that leads you to your conclusion,so I will try to familiarise myself with these before I comment further.
I had been working backwards from 1777 when the properties were said to be the inheritance of William Davies,through 1761 and 1756 where he has interests in on "Cloddie Cerrig" and "Llwyn y Gofre".Pror to this point there seemed to be a criticall period for the identification of Thomas Richard(s).
Regards
Roger
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It's the 1754 indenture as follows and was posted just before the death of David Richard, (but after the death of Rev.Morgan Richard). It shows the granting of the lease of Hendry Rees from David to Thomas Davies, (Guardian of Thomas Junior). Presumably Thomas Junior inherited on the death of David less than two years later.
II.229
1754, Sept. 10
INDENTURE, being a grant from David Richards of p. Llanddewy Brevy, co. Card., gent., to Thomas Davies of p. Llanbadarnfawr, co. Rad., clerk, of a tmt called Hendre Rees, p. Llanilar, co. Card., on trust for the said David Richards for his life, with remainder to Thomas Richards of p. Lledrod, co. Card., (second son of Morgan Richards of p. Llanddewy Ystradeny, co. Rad., clerk, dec., who was the eldest son of the said David Richards) and his issue, with similar remainders in succession to Rachel Richards and Lucy Richards, the dau’s of the said Morgan Richards, dec.
Hendre Rees(sic) Rhys is now described as a small village. The parish map of Llanilar from the 1700's shows it as a farm. It was completely demolished in living memory. (I have a photo).
Williams, Latham entry...
ID: I024463
•Name: John Richards , Curate Of Llanerchymedd 1
•Sex: M
•Title: Rev
•Birth: 26 OCT 1760 in Llanerchymedd
•Death: MAR 1832 in Llanerchymedd
•Event: Curate Llanerchymedd
•LVG: Pendref
Family search entry...
26 Oct 1760 of, Ystradmeurig, Gwnnws, Cardiganshire, Wales
regards, Peter
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A number of points,significance unknown:-
Did you read the 1754 indenture as Thomas Richard(s) moving into Hendre Rees,meaning John and James as putative sons were not born at Bryn Isaf?
I never know quite how to read these indentures,but I could interpret it as the Rev Thomas Davies moving there.I assume he is the brother in law/guardian of Morgan Richards' 1749 will.You have him married to Gwen(Morgan's sister),but according to David Richards(note,again,not a Rev.) 1756 will Gwen is married to Morgan Evans.This I think leaves the Rev Thomas Davies as the brother of Morgan's wife Margaret.
I have tried to link these Davies to William Davies(possibly with a mother Elizabeth and brother Richard),who appears to have inheritance rights in 1877.No luck so far.
Regards
Roger
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I read the indenture as being that Thomas, son of Morgan, moved there. By this date the Rev. Thomas Davies' duty as the guardian of Thomas, would be over. (Thomas would be aged circa 21 at this date, (age of emancipation is 17 years).
Mix-up over who was who with the wives is due to Morgan dying before his father. Now corrected. If Thomas did indeed inherit, as I think that he did, then the birthplace of John and James would change from Bryn Issaf to Hendre Rees. We would also need to find a new mother too because the Thomas, brother of Morgan is now at Bryn Issaf with his wife Jane (guess). (Both of them obit around 1765-77). The property would then move to John, due to lack of a suitable heir, or some other complicated legal procedure.
I've noted the size of Bryn Issaf in your earlier post. 456 acres is quite a lump of land, the second largest recorded so far for the Richards family. Largest was Parciau Home farm (600 acres) of Michael, the Rev. John's 2nd son.
Regards, Peter.
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More. If you add the doc that you found for 1780, then it identifies which Thomas Richards is involved with Hendre Rees, at that date.
Level
File.
Summary
Indenture, being a lease for a year (so that a grant by release might be made) from Thomas Richards of p. Lledrod, co. Card. (second son of Morgan Richards of p. Llanddewy Ystradeny, co. Rad., clerk, dec.) to Thomas Jones of Carmarthen, gent., of a tmt called Hendre Rees, p. Llanilar, co. Card
It looks as if Thomas was the next of kin of his brother, Benjamin, so that his trip to London in 1765 would be simply to execute the will. (This indicates that Benjamin wasn't married).
The Trip to London in 1767 would be to attend his sister's wedding.
It is probable that Thomas didn't move to London until he was released from the lease for Hendre Rees. This broadens the date when his 1st wife died and therefore increases the ages of their 2 children when she died. (In 1770, John was 10 and James was 7, both in the middle of their education by Edward Richard, schoolmaster, who continued to teach until 1774).
It is likely that Thomas and Lucy returned, after their marriage, to Hendre Rees because the above Indenture, dated 1780, is the application to the landowner to release Thomas from the lease and transfer it to Thomas Jones. (I can't see the farm being unoccupied for 10 years).
(In 1780 both John and James would have been emancipated).
Regards, Peter
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I have had a reply from NLW now re a will for Thomas Richard,father of Edward of Ystrad Meurig.
It says that although the evidence from wording in documents supports that there was a will
"...it has proved rather elusive to dig out..." i.e. they can't find one.
Regards
Roger
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Yes, the usual story ... damned amateurs! ;)
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I've spent the last few days going over what we have, and, more important, what we don't have. A search of all wills between the dates 1750 and 1820 produced nothing but eye-strain, although, hurrah, I found another woman called 'Goley".
I.584
1691-2, Mar. 14
LEASE, (counterpart), for 21 years from John Vaughan of Trowscoed, esq., to John Morgan of p. Llanvihangell y Croythyn, co. Card., yeoman, and Goley (wife of David Rees of p. Lledrod, co. Card.) of a tmt called Havod-yr-abbott in said p. Llanvihangel y Croythyn. Yearly rent, £5.10s., two hens and 40 eggs at Shrovetide or 1s., and a heriot of 40s.
You can see that this Goley was a contemporary of the 'David and Goley', of Ynys Berfedd and I'm convinced that the name must have a common source, via a patronymic.
I don't think that we can get any further with our search for the origins of the Rev. John and his brother James. Further back in time I see tantalizing possibilities regarding links between many of the Richard/s characters that we've come across but there is, as always, lack of positive data to form those links. We were lucky in the fact that the line starting with David of Llandewi Brevi didn't use patronymics, (this was unusual in those days), allowing us to trace, with certainty, the next generation, and the next. (There is an example of this in the Indenture 11.161 where the son of David and Goley is stated to be Richard David ... the following day, indenture 11.162 corrects the name to David Richard). In all probability, the Richard/s that we know of, including David of Ffos, David of Strygos, David and Goley of Ynys Perfedd, David of Llandewi were all related. And then we have Thomas, father of Edward schoolmaster, Thomas, the father of David of Strygos, Thomas, the son of David of Llandewi, and his son Thomas and there's the Thomas of Bwlch y Dwyallt.
In the distant past (1620) there is the following ...
'Thomas Morgan Herbert of p. Spyttie Rhwystwyth, gent., and Marie verch Richard his wife'
I think that we can congratulate ourselves on what we have achieved and now show this topic as, "Completed". Many thanks for your expert assistance, a fine example of, "Help the Aged".
Regards from Peter.
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I have been doing largely the same as you,concentrating on the outside possibility that they were named patronymically or that another useful will might exist in London,but equally to no avail.
Regards
Roger
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I know you said this thread was completed,but while following the possibility of James and John being patronymically named sons of Richard Davies(brother of William),and any possible relationship with the Rev Thomas Davies(brother in law and gaurdian) I came across the will of Thomas Davies of Lledrod(1701),in which I think it says he leaves "Tythyn Strygos" to his nephew and godson Thomas John.He describes it as a large and ample manor,now in his own possession,and mentions Richard David as his under tenant.Any relationships are not immediately obvious,but I thought it worth mentioning.
Regards
Roger
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Just had a peek ... biggest will so far. I can't see that this is the will of 'our' Thomas Davies. The property is Tythin Strygos, the phrase, "large and ample manor, (sic), manner" is a common phrase used in wills, (there is another one at the bottom of the page), and is the equivalent of, "enjoy". I see at least another 4 properties mentioned, (2 in Llandewi) but there is no mention of Bryn Issaf or anywhere that we know of that connects to the Richards family. This includes the names of others mentioned in this will, (except for the Richard David). There appears to be some argument between the parties regarding the will. Someone else owned some of the property that was bequeathed, etc. There is no mention of a wife or children either and just a 'nephew' to indicate that he had a sibling.
My searches have produced wills as follows
Thomas Richard, 1676 Bond, of Lledrod. Wife, Margaret Thomas, Bonder is John Thomas.
David Richard, 1688 will. Son, Edward David, Dau' Hannah David, sister Mary Richard.
Thomas Richard, 1677 will. Sons Richard, Morgan and David Thomas.
Richard Evan, (son of Evan Richard, dec.), 1767 will. Bequests to uncle, Morgan Richard,
Elizabeth and Sarah Richard, aunts and Morgan Owen, Brother.
David Richard, 1775 will. Lledrod.Brother Lewis Richard.
This list is a good example of how patronymics can muddy the waters for us researchers!
Regards, Peter.
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Just been having another close look at the 1756 will of David Richards, Gent, Llandewi Brefi. After reading of the bequests to his sons and grandchildren, there is more stuff and then, right at the end of that para ... "to my youngest son, David, I leave the sum of 1/=". (I've seen this in various other Richards wills where someone who is already well-established, receives a nominal sum).
I wonder if this is the David of Ffosybleiddiad. The eldest daughter, Elizabeth, has had 9 children at this date and would give a DoB of C1710, and David, a later date. (We know that Thomas Richards of Bryn Isaf was also born at around this date). David of Ffos and Thomas, as brothers, would explain the Indenture that shows Thomas, Jane and Letitia as being deceased. Letitia was David's wife.
(And there is this quote from you)
[1757,an indenture of £100-David Richards of Foesybleidded(sic) and Letitia his wife to Edward Richards of Spytty Ystrad Meyrick(sic) re a property called Bryn Merllyd and a note of 1764 acknowledging repayment of capital and interest by Thomas Richards.]
(This transaction, of 1757, is made shortly after the death of David Richards, Senior).
I also see, from the will, that David senior was quite a wealthy Gent. Notwithstanding the cash bequeathed, there are no less than six farm properties bequeathed.
We knew nothing about David junior until he moved to Ffos, but we have the above Indenture and another that shows David moving to Ffos at around the same date. I think that we are looking at two brothers, the sons of David senior of Llandewi Brefi.
Regards, Peter.
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Yes,it's possible they were brothers-I had such a query in my notes.If the 1737 marriage of David Richards and Letitia Parry is the correct one this might also indicate a birth for David in the 1710s,consistent with the possibility.
Not that I'm suggesting it,or that there is a shred of evidence,but someone born in the 1710s could be a suitable grandfather for John and James!
Regards
Roger
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I still favour Thomas, Hendre Rees,, son of Morgan, as being the father of John and James. I have been looking at the Elizabeth Richards that is also included in the 1777 Indent, (that refers back to 1762), and wondering who she could be. She is shown as 'widow' in 1762 so must have been married to one of the Richards in the area. With James being born in 1763 she is not his mother and therefor not the wife of Thomas of Hendre Rees. It's possible that she was the wife of a son of David of Ffos, or even ditto for Thomas Bryn Issaf, David's brother. (It's because they all appear on the 1762 Indent. that gives me that impression.
Regards from Peter.
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Elizabeth was the wife of the son of David of Ffos, also named David. We have him selling the water mill at Lledrod in 1786. He then moved to Tynllan, Lledrod and died in 1810. His wife, Elizabeth is named as executrix in his will.
I'm off on a 10 day Scandinavian trip tomorrow ... Norway, Denmark and back to Sweden so be prepared for delay.
regards from Peter.
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There is also of course the 1830 will for Elizabeth of Tynllan,but the timescale seems too long for this to be her.I will look further while you are away-have a good trip.
Regards
Roger
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My G G Grandmother is Catherine b1844 daughter of Michael Richards b1798. I came across your thread today which is most interesting. I think I probably need to read it a few times before taking it all in...or better, hope you reach a conclusion in the meantime! :D I'll sit on the side as I don't want to spoil the thread but just wanted to introduce myself as a distant relative and say hello.
David
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Welcome to Rootschat-please feel free to make any contribution.As you can see we've been struggling for quite a while.
Regards
Roger
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Welcome to this topic Zyder. I am now in Norway so I don't have my notes to hand. But, using memory, are you speaking of the Michael Richards, 2nd son of the Rev. John Richards? I remember his Dob because my father, Michael, was born 100 years later, in 1898. Shame on me but I forget who Catherine was married to. Give me her married name and I will give you her history.
Croeso. Peter.
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Thank you both,
Yes, the same Michael. I'm separated from my records at the moment so this is from memory but his daughter Catherine married John Brewerton in abt 1868 at Manchester Cathedral. John died about 1886, aged 40ish. Their son John Richards Brewerton (my G Grandad) was born about 1869 and is found with his Grandad Michael Richards in 1881 census, presumably making a family visit. This John died 1904, so not reaching 40.
I have a postcard dated 1904 sent to John Richards Brewerton shortly before he died of Glanrafon Hotel, Red Wharf Bay sent from "Jane", who I suspect is Catherine's younger sister Jane. I know my Grandfather Stanley Brewerton often holidayed with relatives at Red Wharf Bay before WW1 but I don't know with whom. My impression is that Michael and some others moved more inland from their time at Parciau but presumably some will have stayed in the area of Benlech.
Enjoy your trip and I'll be interested in anything related on your return.
Regards
David
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The people that you mention are well known to me. Without notes, I won't risk adding too much detail but I have hopes of resurrecting an old e-mail that was sent that contained my family tree.
Catherine and John were provision merchants at Upper Brook St, Chorlton. She had a sister, with family, living close by and my father was born in Chorlton whilst his parents, Thomas and Mary, were visiting in 1898.
Yes, Michael senior moved to Bod-Deiniol farm, Llanbabo. Jane was born there. The relatives at the Glanrafon Arms were the family of Michael's son, Michael.
I'll PM you if I can recover the old e-mail.
Regards, Peter
Addendum. PM sent with details.
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Thanks Peter,
Yes I've quite a lot on Brewertons although I didn't realise Catherine's sister had moved to the Manchester area too...that's Mary I presume? Thomas?
I wrote to the Glanrafon Arms back in the 1980s and got some information which they kindly gathered from an old lady in the village, although it wasn't conclusive on Michael so that is good to know. :)
btw I re-read your John and James thread yesterday evening, more of it is sticking but patronymic naming is a nightmare isn't it!
Much appreciated,
David
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Patronymics! The owner of the Glanrafon Arms that you mentioned was Michael, the son of Michael,
and he had a son, Michael. There is also a more recent case where my father Michael has a son Michael, he has a son Michael, and he has a son Michael.
Regards, Peter
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Hi Peter,
Thanks indeed! A number of pennies have dropped! ;D I couldn't reply to your PM btw.
Welsh placenames lose me and I hadn't realised before that Glanyr Afon = Glanrafon (1861 for Catherine).
I hadn't found John Brewerton 1846-1881 previously in 1871 census as Omnibus Guard, he was just missing but most of my Brewerton and Richards research I did 25 years+ ago. What's available now online is wonderful by comparison! David Owen is a witness at John and Catherine's wedding in 1868.
Funny about the Michaels...my grandad Stanley Brewerton told me when I was little that all above him were John Brewertons as far as...I found six Johns with a spurious Thomas in the middle!
I have very little on Richards really which you have discovered in much more detail than I. The postcard from Jane to John Richards Brewerton is here...
http://brewertons.squirrelhouse.biz/tree/ljbpics1/glanrafon-hotel.jpg (http://brewertons.squirrelhouse.biz/tree/ljbpics1/glanrafon-hotel.jpg)
http://brewertons.squirrelhouse.biz/tree/ljbpics1/glanrafon-hotel-postcard.jpg (http://brewertons.squirrelhouse.biz/tree/ljbpics1/glanrafon-hotel-postcard.jpg)
It's great to be able to join the dots, it gives much more of a sense of what the family was like. It's all so clear too how very family centric the Richards were. John Brewerton b1846's father John Brewerton b1824 dominated the Brewertons in Manchester as far as I can tell. He was fairly successful, had 8 children with his first wife, divorced her, married his cousin and had another 8 children. I get the feeling though that John Brewerton b1846 turned more to his wife's family Richards after his mother Agnes died the following year. After John Richards Brewerton died in 1904, my grandad Stanley Brewerton and his twin Cyril seemed to get no help from their grandad John Brewerton b1824 so it's good to understand now how his Richards relatives helped and gave him holidays at Glanrafon.
btw What Software do you use? Do you like it? My records started on a DOS system I wrote in 1987 then moved into Family Tree Maker v6 about 2000ish but it's not an easy system to use. I can export to GEDCOM.
Regards
David
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Just to add to the mix,I've realised there is possibly another Thomas Richard(s),whose wife is given as Mary,eldest daughter of Hugh Rice,clerk(image 2 of his will of 1767).
There is a degree of consistency here with the indentures of 1722(Hugh Rice/Thomas Richards) and 1738(Hugh Rice/Thomas Richard).Whether this is the same man as the 1757 and 1765 indentures,which lead to William Davies is open to question-and,of course by 1777 we have Thomas Richards and his wife Jane(deceased).
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger,
The Viking is on his way home at last. Storms and cancelled ferry sailings giving me a few extra days away so I'm still in Norway, but hope to be "back in business", soon.
Regards from Peter.
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Hi Roger,
I've just had a quick look at the will of Hugh Rice dated 1767. The executors were his wife, Gwen and his eldest daughter, Mary. It looks as if Mary was married to the ubiquitous Thomas Richards and they are both seen to sign off on image 2 that you mentioned.
A surprise half way through is that Hugh Rice, Cleric, had a son, Hugh Rice, Cleric.
In the 1746 Indenture that names Jane Morgan (widow), and Edward Richards, Schoolmaster in a transaction involving Bryn Perfedd, the witness is Hugh Rice, Cleric. In the final accord Thomas Richards is a "Gent". The endorsement to this Indenture is made by Hugh Rice, Cleric.
Witnesses to his will are David Williams, Edward Richards and Roderick Lewis, Cleric.
In an Indenture of 1756 involving the same property, (Bryn Perfedd), the witnesses were David Richards of Ffosybleiddiaid, David Williams and a Thomas Davies of Wernvelen.
(Do we know who Thomas Davies was? Perhaps a link to the Rev.William Davies).
The 1722 Indenture is the best indicator that we have that there was a Thomas Richards at Bryn Issaf at that time and we more or less placed him as the son of David Richards of Llandewi Brefi. Perhaps we can link William Davies, the next owner of Bryn Issaf to the Rev. Thomas Davies and Daniel, his brother, or to the mystery Thomas Davies of Wernvelen.
Yes, it's good to be home again!
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I think the likelihood is that Thomas Davies is the brother in law/guardian in the 1749 will of Morgan Richards.He is a "clerk" according to that will and below
Release of the equity of redemption of the properties specified in Nos 230-1 of 30-1 May 1763, 1764, Aug. 1.
Level
File
Summary
1 John Morgan of p. Spytty Ystrad Meirig, co. Card., gent., only son and heir of Morgan Davies, late of p. Llanfihangel y Croyddyn, by Mary his wife. 2 Edward Richards of p. Spytty Ystrad Meirig, gent. Release of the equity of redemption of the properties specified in Nos 230-1 of 30-1 May 1763. Witnesses: Thomas Davies, clerk, of Wernfelen, and David Williams of Penygraig.
Regards
Roger
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Sorry ... meant to say, "who is William Davies?"
I've looked for his will from 1765 to 1820 without luck; so too Thomas Davies, just in case he was a relative. My search for a link between any Richards born before 1700 and those born after this date has also come to nothing. I keep thinking that there's an obvious source for the whole family in the earliest days but, mostly because of patronymics, it's impossible to find it. The early belief that there was a nuclear family based on David and Goley Richard would appear to have moved, thanks to more info, to a long list of Thomases. I have the 1722 will of David Richards of Clawdd Kerrig, wife is Magdalen Jenkins. His father was Richard Thomas. He is still alive at this date but there are no indications of his age. (David's sister was Jane Richards and brother Edward Richards).
Regards, Peter.
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I referenced William Davies as he is the last person I can find who seems associated with an "inheritance" that includes "Bryn-Issa".He is in a number of 1777 indentures,particularly that of Jan 17.
Regards
Roger
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Can you PM me the indentures from 1777 etc. that you mention. My Indentures stop at 1722 !
Something of interest ....
I.1635
1850, Jan. 26
LEASE for 21 years from the Rt Hon. Ernest Augustus, Earl of Lisburne, to Richard Davies of Hendre-Rees, p. Llanilar, co. Card., farmer, of a piece of land (1 r., 15 p.) in a field called Simnie-wen, said p. Llanilar and a house thereon, which said premises were known as Llwynderw. Yearly rent, 5s
(Note ... may be a relative of (son?) of Thomas Davies. Thomas is dec. at this date).
Regards, Peter
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Your PM appears to be blocking messages.
Regards
Roger
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Re-set parameters so should be OK now. Regards, Peter
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I will try to see if I can tease out any more solid connections from these very tenuous strands:-
There is a 1701 will of Thomas Davies of Lledrod,that I have referred to before.There is not an obvious link to Thomas Davies,clerk,the brother in law/guardian of the 1749 Morgan Richard will,though he does give Richard David as his "under tenant" at Tythyn Strygos(as before also).Another property mentioned in this will is EithinGleision(SY23 4EE)which is very close to Esgair y Gors,perhaps confirming the equivalence with Strygos.
Yet another property is Ffos Helyg,and there is also a 1795 indenture for Richard Davies of this address.As usual the lack of confident birth/death dates makes attribution difficult.
Leaving the will aside,Egair y gors and EithinGleision are also very close to a property called Pentre-du and there is a 1743 indenture with William Davies and "Pentre-duy".
Regards
Roger
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Yes, that reply was saved ... never used it before.
I've noticed a whole bunch of Davies in the Lledrod and Ystrad area going right back to the 1600's (the will of Thomas Davies of 1701 is an example),and I'm almost convinced that our Davies, (Rev. and Guardian) is not of this group. The William Davies at Penbryn is in Lledrod with his mother and I see them as being the local tribe and nothing to do with the Richards family. We'll never be able to prove it either way but his entitlement to the property of Bryn Issaf etc. remains an enigma.
There is the chance that David Richards, father of Morgan Richards was originally from the area around Lledrod, thus explaining why his sons Thomas and David of Ffos, plus Thomas, son of Morgan, are resident in the area. We know of a few Richards that were here from the beginning of our research; Thomas, the father of Edward Richard and the David Richards and wife Goley come to mind. David and Goley actually owned the property involved in 1693, and Edward, who seemed to own most of Bryn Merllyd at his death, had his finger in most of what went on in the area.
Regards from Peter.
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Further thoughts on those indentures that you sent by PM.
I think that the final indenture dated May 29, 1777, lists all of the people that owned parts of the properties of Pen-bryn-merllyd and Tythyn-bryn-issa at that date. William Davies is there, so too Edward Richard of the School amongst others. I can only guess that the actual house called Bryn Issaf, as we have noticed, was used by the clergy and, with some change in the Church's circumstances, (you quoted information from the body that maintains the Church's properties of the poor state of the place), the house was passed to the Rev. John and then to his son Robert.
Another look at Robert's finances at death finds that his valuation was £414, (after payment of debts). For a tenanted farm of 110 acres, this was quite a sum in 1849. (Compare this to the Rev. John with his residue of £68 in 1832) and could be an indication that Robert had sold the property. We need an indenture showing the transfer of the property to the Rev. John and the transfer from him to Robert in 1832.
The present tenant of the house tells me that the original house is simply a low pile of rubble and that the present house was built in the mid-1900's.
Send thoughts. Regards Peter.
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I can't find indentures or similar as you suggest,nor any line of inheritance of the property nor wills referring to John or James that would lead to their parentage.While I haven't given up entirely I am fairly pessimistic about any breakthrough.
Regards
Roger
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I spent some time yesterday trawling for items on the Net that touch on the Richards enigma. The first discovery was that the Rev. Morgan Richards was the stipendiary Curate of Ystrad Meurig(1744 Clerical List). In the same list the Rev. Hugh Rice is shown as stipendiary Curate of Lledrod.
I quote the following from D.G. Osborne's book...
"It is also related that "merched ffeirad Rice, y Swydd, [i.e. the daughters of minister Rice] were the best dancers in the district. "Ffeirad Rice" was the Rev. Hugh Rice, incumbent of Lledrod, and one of the original trustees for Lledrod School under Dorothy Oliver's deed of settlement.
(Hugh Rice and his family lived at Menachty Hen, Swyddffynnon, a few meters from "Ty Dawns" where the dances were held).
You may remember that Hugh's eldest daughter, Mary. was the executor of his will and that, after those duties had been completed, she signs off as Mary Richards, along with her presumed husband, Thomas Richards.
(The "school at Lledrod" is the one from earlier posts and called, Ynys y Garn".
We may not have the necessary paperwork to prove that Mary, the eldest daughter of Hugh, married Thomas, the son of Morgan but I think that there's enough peripheral information to assume that this was indeed the case. We also know that Thomas moved to Hendre Rees.
[quote author=despair
"Just to add to the mix, I've realized there is possibly another Thomas Richard(s),whose wife is given as Mary, eldest daughter of Hugh Rice, clerk(image 2 of his will of 1767).
There is a degree of consistency here with the indentures of 1722(Hugh Rice/Thomas Richards) and 1738(Hugh Rice/Thomas Richard).Whether this is the same man as the 1757 and 1765 indentures, which lead to William Davies is open to question-and, of course by 1777 we have Thomas Richards and his wife Jane(deceased).[/quote]
I'm now sure that the Thomas of your quote is Thomas the brother of Morgan Richards and that the later one is Thomas, son of Morgan.
Lack of indentures for the transfer of Bryn Issaf may be related to the Land Act of 1820 when the 'willing' of property became a simpler affair. I'll be reading it up later.
Regards, Peter
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A very interesting and succinct analysis.Ynys Y Garn seems to ring a distant bell as well-I'll investigate further.
Regards
Roger
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I've had a look for changes in the Land Acts without definitive answers. It does state that in Ynys Perfedd there were a number of Freehold properties at around 1800 and some, or most of these, would have been properties that were left to the church in the Edward Richard will.
The Rev. Owen R. Owen that lived at Bryn Issaf from 1778 was the Curate of Llanilar but his will of 1829 shows him living at his farm, Pen y Bank, Llanilar, (with 4 years of a lease remaining). The next known occupant died at Bryn Issaf in 1859 and the last that I have records for was a Daniel Morgans who died there in 1888.
Either Bryn Issaf was a freehold property, easily bought and sold, or a leasehold property, (The transfer of the lease would generate an Indenture, which we haven't yet found).
Owned by the Church and with so many local Clergy being allied to the Richards family it isn't surprising that it would end up in the hands of the Rev. John Richards at some point because, as far as I know, he was the only Rev. of the Richards' family still alive in the early 1800's).
Regards, Peter.
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I can't quite make out if the indenture of May 29 1777,grants David Williams,curate of Eglwys Newydd,and his successors,rights for 500 years to the land containing Tythyn Bryn Issa or whether it includes the tenements,messuage etc.
This could of course be overtaken by a later indenture.
Regards
Roger
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I think that it refers to the houses and the land. A clergyman wouldn't know what to do with 450 acres so those acres would be leased out simply to generate cash for the church.
Owen Owens had a couple of cows and a few tools, (the same for the Rev. John Richards), and I think that it was commonplace for everyone to be self-sufficient in basic foodstuff in those days, including the Clergy.
Had the Rev. John inherited 450 acres at that time it would have shown up in Robert's will as quite a small fortune. The church would have held on to the land but the small house, probably in need of repair by 1800, would have been a separate issue.
Regards, Peter.
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I've been collating all the relevant facts on the first 3 generations of the Richards families of Cardigan, ready to finally write them down in my tree. Re-reading the will for David, the son of David of Ffosybleiddiad has produced a sister, Elinor, (with 3 children) and therefore a second child for David Senior. David Junior's will of 1810 shows that he had no children, but had a step-daughter, Sarah Owens. (His will states that his wife inherits all and after her death, Sarah inherits) He also nominates 2 friends to ensure that his wishes are carried out.
Now comes David's wife, Elizabeth's will of 1830. Sarah inherits the property but Elizabeth has another 5 children! It looks as if she was married at least once before marrying David because 2 of her children are Morgans and the 3 others are Owens. I can't say whether the 3 Owen's are related to Sarah. It just shows that close reads and re-reads of these wills always produces a bit more info that was missed the first, or second time around.
I'll send you the written tree in parts by PM due to the restricted size, (Over 5,000 characters ... and I think that a space counts as a character too).
Regards. Peter
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After all this time part of the solution was available(I hope), if only one line of enquiry had been followed through to it's logical conclusion.
I have read the will of (Rev.)Edward Richards of Epsom,referred to in an earlier post.While there may be some discrepancy over his birth date he died in 1833.
In his extensive will amongst the numerous properties he leaves Tyddyn y Garreg in Llandyfrydog
Anglesey, and Ynys y Berfedd,Lledrod(freehold)
He names his wife,5 sons,three daughters,leaves oodles of cash,and makes some provision for(start drum roll now)
"....my brother James and my brother John's widow....."(timing appropriate to John's death)
Edward is the son of David Richards,gent of Lledrod - see the following list
http://www.dyfedfhs.org.uk/res-alumni-mr.php
Looks like you might have another branch to investigate.
Regards
Roger
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When, "oodles of cash" is mentioned .... I'm onto it!
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No Internet. Damn! I have the Ref. number for the will but can't figure out how to access it. Can you PM me the link please.
PS James's grave states, "of Llandyfrydog".
regards Peter
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Panic over ... found the Will. Give me some time to read it.
regards, Peter.
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Just tried to read the Will. At a glance it looks as if it's written in Hebrew but over the next day or so we'll manage to decipher some of the names and places.
At a glance, this David looks to be the family of David Richards of Strygosfawr. In fact, on the 3rd page of this topic I wrote the following.
"This is obviously not David of Ffos ... the details fit the "New" David mentioned in my last post.
We need now to concentrate on Edward, the brother of this David Richards."
And that was a far as it went I think.
This Rev. Edward Richards had 6 sons, (one, Edward Bridges Richards is deceased at this time), and 3 daughters which is much more like my Richards family. Plenty of money in the will; his daughters get £1,000 each and one gets £1,000 plus an annuity of £400. The properties for the sons have the names of places that we know of in the Lledrod and Caron area.
Edward seems to have married Mary, the daughter of Sir. (S....y) Bridges, Knight, explaining the source of the cash. I need to read it over and over before I fully understand who's who and where's where. We probably already have lots of info on the Richards in Strygosfawr ... it just needs to be dug up and sorted out.
Thanks for the drum-roll ... clash of cymbals will follow!
Regards Peter.
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It reads as if Edward was due money from James and John rather than bequeathing it to them.
There is mention of a nephew Joseph Davi(e)s which implies a sister for the brothers as well.
There is a Joseph Davies at Ynys y Berfedd in the 1841 census,but no obvious immediate family at the same address.There is a record for a Joseph Davies(1794-1872) at Lledrod.
The will is not the easiest read,but it gets a little easier with repeated attempts.
The family of Mary Bridges(married 1800 in Epsom) is on Histfam.I don't think Sir Henry was her father,but obviously the same family.They appeared to have owned a (gun) powder mill!.
Regards
Roger
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In the Lledrod MIs(copyright Cardiganshire FHS),next to the grave of Joseph Davies are Owen Davies(1733-1812) and his wife Jane(1755-1822),also Ynys y Berfedd,implying a sister for Edward,John and James,i.e. Jane Richards born 1755?
This might also be a useful document
Martin, Shirley A.
Title
The Reverend Edward Richards, his son George and their connection with Epsom, Surrey and Tregaron and Lledrod, Ceredigion / Shirley Martin.
In
Cardiganshire Family History Society journal = Cylchgrawn Cymdeithas Hanes Teuluoedd Ceredigion. Vol. 6, no. 6 (October 2012), p. 147-149. (WlAbNL)003038791
I had hoped Genfair would have a copy.They seem to currently have the editions either side,but not the one referred to.
Regards
Roger
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The latest data has reminded me of why Ynys y Garn rang a bell.There are references to "Ynys y Garn y Berfedd".It made me wonder if Ynys y Garn and Ynys y Berfedd were actually synonymous,with possible implications re the (family) connection between Edward Richard(s),schoolmaster and the current family.
The second reference to Ynys y Berfedd in the following suggests this is possible(or that they were adjacent?)
http://www.dyfedarchaeology.org.uk/projects/corscaron2010.pdf
Regards
Roger
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I have had a look at the will of Thomas Oliver,and it says "...Ynys y Garn and Ynys y Berfedd...."
Regards
Roger
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The will of Thomas Oliver of 1745. I have it transposed and quote this ....
"devised all his lands called Ynys Y Garn Y Berfedd, Lledrod."
And later in another doc...
" At 1835, the endowment mounted to £150, being the farm's rent."
It looks as if they are the same place although the school, when opened in 1734, was described as newly constructed. Looking back, Edward Richard always described himself as 'of Brynperfedd'. On the old Parish map there isn't an Ynys y Garn shown in Lledrod (Upper). Looking at where Ynys Perfedd is situated, it's a strange place to build a school.
I agree that John and James and Joseph Davies owed either loans, or rents on property. John had Bryn Issaf in his name and James had his house in Llandyfrydog. I wonder too whether the Joseph Davies is a relative of the William Davies shown at Penbryn.
The Bridges family fortunes start with Canon Alexander Henry Bridges. He acquired Beddington Park in the 1750's. His son was the Sir Alexander Bridges, B1786, married Frances Dalrymple in1808, and the Knighthood was created in 1814. Looking at his DOB, Mary could be his sister.
I can't get access to the Cardiganshire FHS.
Regards, Peter.
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Another snippet...
"The Indenture, which is dated the 1st of July, 1746, recites that Mr. OLIVER by his Will gave and devised all those his lands, called " Ynys y Garn y Berfydd," in the Parish of Lledrod, in order to maintain a Grammar School there, for the edu cating FORTY Children in Parcel Ycha, in that Parish, in the principles of the Church of England, and as far beyond the Grammar as the Masters for the time being should be capable"
Thomas Oliver was the Vicar of Dudley, Worcs.
Another quote...
" By his Will, bearing date the 21st of May, 1745, he left for that purpose a small Farm, which he possessed by inheritance in this Parish,
regards, Peter
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Info. From the Clerical List.
[RICHARDS, Edward s. David of Lledrod, co. Cardigan, gent. Jesus Coll. matric. 15 May 1789 aged 24. See Gent.'s Mag., 1833, ii. 551.]
This gives us his DoB as being 1765. (John 1760, James 1763) We see that his father was David, of Lledrod.
Regards, Peter.
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That record is why I referred to a discrepancy re his birth date.At his death in 1833,he is given as 74 years old- a birth date of approx. 1759.This is still within the compass of a possible family including Jane(1755),John(1760) and James(1763).
Concentrating on Ynys y Berfedd alone,we have David Richard,his wife Goley,and son and heir Richard David referred to there in indentures 1719-1721.Perhaps this Richard David had a son David Richard(s),who is the father of the family in question.Finding birth/death dates/wills to flesh this out is proving problematic.
Regards
Rogeer
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That Indent. for David and Goley is re-issued the following day with the Richard David corrected to David Richard.
With so many reverend gents involved I hadn't noticed the Devine Directive in my title for this topic !
Regards Peter.
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I had been considering David Richards of Strygos as a candidate for the father.He is "...of Lledrod,
gent.."If he is the David Richards married to Letitia Parry in 1737,it might just be feasible.Say David is born 1700-1710,Letitia 1715-1720,a family up to 1763(birth of James)is possible.Further,it is likely that David died between 1769(when he is named in an indenture)and 1777 when Letitia is described as widow.This would also probably imply a lot of other siblings between 1737 and 1755(when Jane is born)-perhaps a Thomas!
Very speculative of course.
Regards
Roger
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Yes, I've been looking at the same possibility. I can't understand though the connection between The Rev. Edward having so much property in Caron, Anglesey and Lledrod. I notice that they are all stated as 'Freehold' although with so much money around him, some may have been investment assets.
When a David Richards crops up in our research, one side of my brain shuts down; if you add an additional Vicar then the whole thing grinds to a stop.
We never really had a close look at the Strygos David, (probably due to the lack of a will for him) and now we're desperate for some positive link to Edward, John and James, and now, Jane.
In the last note we have for bryn Issaf we have a Thomas Richards and his wife, Jane. The Thomas may be the brother of David, (due to his age), named after their father, Thomas, and has nothing to do with our main family search. We know something of David and he is the likeliest culprit. As you said, he was still young enough to father those children but he may have had a son called David... he would be a more interesting subject. What make me uneasy about David and Letitia being the parents is the huge gap between their marriage in 1737 and the birth of their children.
92% of Richards marriages produce a child in the first year ... none have waited 20 years.
Is there another David out there?
regards from Peter.
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Entry deleted-reviewing data.
Regards
Roger
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Just a snippet.
James had a son John, (named after his brother), and Edward, (named after the other brother?) and James Jnr. The son, Edward, named his 2 first sons, James and John. He too has a son Edward.
Regards, Peter.
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I would imagine that naming after brothers and sisters might be secondary to naming after parents.Whether there is any clue in that to the name of David's wife might be worth a look.
Just out of curiosity are there any girls named Jane(might need at least three daughters if first two are named after parents).
Regards
Roger
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Perhaps,also,there is a connection through the Thomas Davies,Lledrod of the 1701 will.Although I don't think he nominates direct family of his own,he does specify Tythyn Strygos,with Richard David as his under tenant and another property mentioned is Ffos Helyg.There is a 1795 indenture for Richard Davies at this address,and he appears to be related to the William Davies of interest.Perhaps Owen Davies and Jane Richards fit in to this family.
Regards
Roger
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The Rev. John had a daughter Jane and one of James' daughters had another. I've been looking to see what was happening at the time of the Rev. Edward's will in 1833.
James' son Edward moves from a small farm in Llangefni to Ynys Ynyd, a 250 acre farm in Llandyfrydog.
The Rev. John's son Michael moves from the family home at Plas Llanfair to Parciau Home Farm, Llaneugrad, (600 acres).
The Rev. John had just died, leaving assets of £68.
Whether these two facts had anything to do with the death of the Rev. Edward would be pure speculation but worth wondering about.
Regards, Peter.
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Further to the naming of family members.
In the 1727 will of Richard David, we see that he had 5 sons and a daughter, named as follows.
David, William, Lewis, Thomas and Edward. The daughter is Jane. Any of the sons could have had a son named David and he would have been the father of John, James, Edward and Jane of Bryn Issaf, (with Edward and Jane being family names).
We have a Request regarding the death of David Richard, dated 1775, Ystradmeurig, naming his brother Lewis as executor and here we see the circa demise-date of the family of Richard David.
The will of Thomas Davies shows Richard David at Tythin Strygos as under-tenant, (as you pointed out). Another property mentioned is Pontargamddwr ... that place is close to Ynys Perfedd. There are other properties mentioned but have probably disappeared now. (I have a photo showing the present-day Strygos as a total ruin).
The link between Thomas Davies and a further link between Jane and Owen Davies also strengthens the probability of this hypotheses.
Auction day today. Hurray!
regards from Peter.
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I think it worthwhile having another look at this Indenture in the light of the new hypotheses.
D.D. 1460. Indenture, dated 1 Aug. 1769, being a lease for a year (so that a grant by release might be made) from David Richards of Strygosfawr in the parish of Lledrod, CO. Cardigan, gent, (son and heir of Thomas Richards of the same place, gent., deceased by Magdalen his wife) to James Lloyd of Mabus, co. Cardigan, esq., of messuages and lands in the said parish of Lledrod, called Strygos otherwise Strygos- fawr, and Twyn y rhose, and late in the tenures of Magdalen Richards, David Richards, Richard David and Thomas Jones.
Having read the will of Richard David it looks as if he died before his time. (Wife is Magdalen).There is no mention of any relatives other than his sons and daughter. This family closely mirrors what we did with the family of the Rev. Morgan Richards; (he died prematurely too when his children were minors). With Richard David dying in 1727, that indenture now reads as if the David Richards mentioned is the son of Thomas, the son of Richard David. This looks like an example of naming within the family that I referred to earlier, notwithstanding that other's may have also named their children David.
Dating the ages is, as usual, fraught with danger but has to be done.
Thomas and David are deceased by 1775 and, as I said earlier, this is the demise area for the children of Richard David. (An example of this - the 3 brothers, Rev. Edward, D1832, Rev. John, D 1833 and James, D1836).
We can pencil in Richard David, born C1680, his son Thomas born C1710, and his son David, born C1735, his children Edward, John, James and Jane being born 1758-1766.
We did the same with David of Ffos ... a David, with a brother, Thomas, at Bryn Issaf.
Your thought please.
Regards from Peter.
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While feasible,I think your hypothesis might require a switch from patronymic naming to "surname naming"(i.e Richard David's son is Thomas Richard(s),but Thomas Richards son is David Richards not David Thomas),but it is difficult to be certain.I think I will wait to see if the Shirley Martin article reveals anything.
Regards
Roger
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A slight aside,but while I came across the data,I thought it best to record it for you.A reasonable amount comes from the Lledrod MIs(copyright Cardiganshire FHS)
David Richards(1747-1810) had a son David(1790-1807),who is buried with him,obviously dying before his father.
Elizabeth Richards(1745-1830) is buried with Anne Evans(1820-1826),one of the children of her daughter Sarah.
It looks like Sarah Owens(1784-1839),her daughter from the will,married an Evan Evans and had at least the following children
Elizabeth(1810-1827)
William(1812-1836)
John(1815-1877)
Mary(1818?-?) married a David Williams,but was widowed early)
Anne(1820-1826)
Various combinations of the family are at Tynllan in the 1841 and 1861 censuses at least,and are given as "of Tynllan" on burial,including Sarah's husband Evan Evans(1770-1854)
Of Elizabeth Richards' other children the record for Morgan Owens(1775-1859) looks promising as he is at Penlan in the 1841 census,the other property specified in one of the wills.(There was a Pen y Lan in the Thomas Davies 1701 will also,but this is a very,very common name)
Interestingly,there is a John Meredith staying with him,who,while the age looks wrong,is posssibly the son of David Meredith of Ffosybleiddiaid.
There is a possibility that the Enoch Morgan(1763-1850) at Cnwc is the appropriate one.There is an isolated burial record in the same row as the Richards and Evans above for Mary,an 18 month old daughter of Enoch,in 1806.
Regards
Roger
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Thanks for the info on the mystery children of Elizabeth. I had another look at the entry that is always quoted by NLW that shows the Rev. John as gaining his BA and MA at Oxford. That would have been a good indicator as they always state the father's name but, as well as the entry being wrongly attributed to John, they don't show his father's name either. Damn!
Regards from Peter.
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Neither the Shirley Martin article nor the pre 1813 burial records provide any further clues to the identity or fate of the David Richards,father of Jane(1755),Edward(1759?),John(1760) and James(1763).
(Out of historical interest there appeared to be deaths due to smallpox in 1801)
There appears the need to fill a gap between the 1719/1721 indenture records for Richard David/David Richard associated with"Unis Pervedd"(the father being the same person with wife Goley in 1694) and the siblings of 1755-1763,one of whom(Edward) leaves the freehold of "Ynys y Berfedd" in his will of 1833.
Regards
Roger
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Still struggling to make that connection.
There is a natural tendency to be drawn to the 1727 will of Richard David of Ystrad Meurig.He may be the son referred to in the previous post,but I can't find an obvious will for the father.
Even if it is him,the will has the tone that the children are not minors.I can't find any birth or burial data to give a clue.If they are not minors,David as the eldest,might be born 1700-1710,which makes him a dubious father for a family up to 1763,though not impossible.This might leave an intermediate generation when the required David as father could be the son of any of the siblings-David,Lewis,William,Thomas,Edward.
On a thread I've touched on before there is still the possibility(?) that David Richards of Tynllan(1747) could be an earlier sibling of Jane(1755 etc),independent of whether they are the children of David Richards and Letitia Parry,married 1737.
As an aside to this,you quoted early on that Tynllan was involved with the sale of Lledrod Mill.I can see it is in the same series of indentures under Ceredigion,but the property specifically mentioned is Tyn y Porth.
There is an interesting,possibly artificial,construct,available from the meagre data.There is a marriage in 1754 of David Richard and Elizabeth Jones at Strata Florida,Carmarthenshire.I assume there is only one Strata Florida i.e. not too far away from Ystrad Meurig.Some records from these early periods including Tregaron and Ystrad Meurig come under rather than Cardiganshire.
There are burial records for David Richard,1789,Lledrod and Elizabeth,wife of David Richard,Lledrod 1790.In isolation these might look good candidates as parents.
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger, The indenture that relates to the sale of Lledrod mill is part of a series. First there is the release of the mill for 1 year by David ... during this year the new owner of the mill builds a house on the mill grounds, named Twyn y Rhose. By the time of final transfer of the property, both are shown.
I've been trawling through the indentures that we have. There is something about Bryn Perfedd that bothers me; primarily the fact that the place is so remote and that, on the old Parish map that I have, in the placing of the modern Bryn Perfedd, there is no dwelling house shown. I've dated the map as being, 'after 1867' simply because the railway is shown. (Opened in 1867). Either there was an older house that had vanished by this date, later re-built, or that the earlier positioning of this house is wrong.
In earlier Indents it seems that various forms of the name refer to an area that covers everything that lies to the south of a line from Swyddffynnon to Strygos fawr. In the 1658 indenture Tythin Y Bryn Issaf is the dwelling and 2 parcels of land called Ynys y Garn and Ynys Berfedd, Lledrod, are shown. Ynys y Garn is close to the church at Lledrod, the site of the school set up by the Oliver fund. In notes of Edward Richard, Schoolmaster, it is said that he was at his school at Ystrad Meurig every day at 4 a.m., studying before the pupils arrived. He is shown as of "Brynperfedd" and this must have been close to his school rather than hiking all of the way from the other "Ynys y Bryn Perfedd". Note that in any document for Edward, the spelling, 'Brynperfedd' is always shown.
In an indent. of 1684 it states, "messuage and lands called Bryn Perfedd, Ystrad Meurig".
In the first Indent. (1694 and 1697 that mentions David and Goley, the property is Tythin y Bryn Merllyd. In their indent. of 1719, the properties are Ynys Perfedd and Tythin y Bryn Merllyd.
In the indents of 1746 and 1757, Edward Richard is again described as of 'Brynperfedd, Ystrad Meurig. (If my hypotheses is correct then his will can be taken in another light as regards the properties bequeathed to the Church).
It looks as if the house, Brynperfedd, is at Ystrad Meurig and the property Ynys y Bryn Perfedd relates to an area that would include the modern farms of Penbryn, Bryn Issaf and Ynys Perfedd. It may be just a case of interchangeable names, as you suggested for other docs in the last paragraph of your last post, but it's worth thinking about.
My hypotheses doesn't help us at all in our search for the 'culprit' David but it could help in finding out who was actually where at certain times. David and Goley may have been involved initially with the modern Penbryn.
Note that Shirley Martin says in her item that,
[ Ynysberfedd in Lledrod went to his cousin, Joseph Davies, farmer, of Ynysberfedd.]
I now have been ordered to help with the housework but I'll be back later.
Regards, Peter.
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The key point I think is that David Richard/Richard David(indents1719/1721) and Rev.Edward Richard(will 1833) both refer to "Unis Pervedd" and "Ynysyberfedd" not BrynPerfedd.It is this family "continuity"we are trying to confirm.There are two references,which,I think,also support the
fact that a school was at such a remote location which I will try to post later.
Regards
Roger
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The first of the references is a repeat.On Page 144 Ynys y Garn and Ynys y Berfedd are described as "...two adjacent cottages or houses visible in the 1844 tithe map and the Ist edition of the OS 1889..".There is also the possible interpretration that Ynys y Berfedd is a cottage and Ynys y Garn a farmstead.
http://www.dyfedarchaeology.org.uk/projects/corscaron2010.pdf
At www.old-maps.co.uk,postcode SY25 6AW,Ynys Y Berfedd appears to have a footprint of two buildings.
The second reference:
http://www.ceredigion.gov.uk/utilities/action/act_download.cfm?mediaid=22685
I suppose the phrase "..of Lledrod.." can sometimes be equivalent to "...of the parish of Lledrod.."
Regards
Roger
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I have the will of Edward in front of me and, after the first bequest of the Mill at Swyddffynnon to Lloyd of Mabws, it states ...
"All the rest of my real estate, that is to say, Brynperfedd, in the said parish of Ystrad Meurig ..."
Note that Brynperfedd is in Ystrad. The next 3 properties are stated as being in 'Lledrod' so there is a distinction between places.
In my struggle to find a link with David and Goley, I should have pointed out that his first acquisition was, what is now Penbryn, and later Ynys a Bryn Perfedd.
My line of though was diverted to the reason why the Rev. John, (Bryn Issaf) was able to inherit that place, when it was thought that Edward had left it to the Church, for ever. Now we know that it was owned by a member of his family.
Can we have a guess at David and Goley's age; he is first mentioned in an indent of 1683. (If this is indeed him with a brother Maurice), and the next in 1694 with Goley, then in 1719 with a son David. David could have been born in 1695 thus requiring him to have a son or grandson (named David) for him to be the father of the Rev. Edward etc. It looks hopeless.
I have a link between Thomas Davies of Lledrod, 1701 Will, in which he shows Richard David as his under-tenant of Tythin Strygos. The properties bequeathed in this 1690 indenture closely match those shown in Thomas Davies. (Looking for link to Joseph Davies, married to Jane, of Bryn Issaf)
I.558
1690, April 3
INDENTURE, being an assignment from John Lewis Rees of p. Carron, co. Card., yeoman, to David Morgan Jenkin of p. Lledrod, co. Card., gent., of a mortgage of a tmt called Tyddyn-ir-eithin-gleison in said p. Lledrod, and a moiety of a parcel of land called Y wein-vawr (being the portion formerly belonging to John Lloyd late of Foesyblyned, co. Card., esq., and his son and heir apparent David Lloyd, gent.) and a parcel of land called Kae-y-bont, and two parcels of land near a bridge there called Pont-ar-gamddwr, which said premises had been mortgaged by the said John Lloyd and David Lloyd to the said John Lewis Rees for £30 on 3 Mar. 1683-4. Consideration, £30.
I'll look again for more info on the Lledrod school.
Regards, Peter.
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Did you mean Owen Davies married to Jane(with Joseph as their son)? How is Jane known to be of Bryn Isaf?
Regards
Roger
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That was a loose reference to indicate which Jane. Don't forget that I'm an enthusiastic amateur of advanced age. Cut me some slack please.
regards Peter.
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I am also an enthusiastic amateur,of advancing age.Slack also required at times.Owen and Jane are given as of Ynysyberfedd in the Lledrod MIs.Joseph in the next grave is simply given as of Ynys.
Regards
Roger
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It seems that whichever David we look at, there seems to be a son or grandson missing from the line. Without readily available documents, (I've only just found out that registry of births for our area only started in 1770, Marriages a few year later), means that our chances of any further progress backwards from David, the father of Edward and siblings, is very slim indeed.
Analyzing the 'feel' of that family, from my perspective, shows a family that, initially, weren't of any wealth and without assets, (except that Edward Richard was able to give them a good education). The three men eventually move away and marry into property and money. Jane stays put, to marry Owen Davies. If he is the son or grandson of William Davies of the 1701 Will, then he too was a suitable match. We see from Edward's will of 1833 that some sort of financial assistance had been made by him to both the Rev. John and James and this is "written off". Neither of the two are left property in the will but the Rev. John is somehow in possession of Bryn Issaf. I was of the opinion that they were all born in this house and John inherited it because he was the oldest. Now we see that Edward was the eldest so there is the usual element of uncertainty again.
I think that Knowing the name of the Rev' John's siblings, and the name of his father is about all that we can hope for and I vote that we now call it a day and close this topic.
Regards from Peter.
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I agree,I think we've given it every chance,come up with a partial answer,and will struggle to find anything more.
Kind regards
Roger
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The missing David, the father of the Rev's John and Edward, Jane and James Richards, has been found. He was the son of Thomas Richards of Strygosfawr, the son of Richard David. Our indentures and records show David, son of Richard David, moving to Ffosybleiddiaid in 1756. We also have an indenture showing that Thomas took over at Strygosfawr and that he had a son David. "Hidden in plain view" as they say and I still don't know how we missed it.
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Just to be clear,is the following sequence the essence of your proposal
Richard David-(under tenant of "Strygos" referred to in 1701 will of Thomas Davies.Is it his will of
1727 also?)
Thomas Richards(son of Richard David?-married to Magdalen and of Strygosfawr,gent in 1769
indenture.Died before 1769 as David Richards in same indenture is "son and heir"
David Richards (son of Thomas Richards as above.Is it this David Richards you equate with
Ffosybleiddiaid?Evidence?which indenture?)
John,James,Jane,Edward-children of David
I have also now found a reference to an Averina Richards"of the Ffosybleiddiad family",who,if I have traced her correctly would have been born in 1762.
http://yba.llgc.org.uk/en/s-MORG-OSB-1826.html?query=george+osborne+morgan&field=name
Regards
Roger
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Yes to 1701 and 1727 Wills. Yes to indenture that shows David as son and heir. No to the connection to David of Ffosybleiddiaid.
D.D.1460.Indenture, dated 1 Aug. 1769, being a lease for a year (so that a grant by release might be made) from David Richards of Strygosfawr in the parish of Lledrod, CO. Cardigan, gent, (son and heir of Thomas Richards of the same place, gent., deceased by Magdalen his wife) to James Lloyd of Mabus, Cardigan, esq., of messuages and lands in the said parish of Lledrod, called Strygos otherwise Strygos- fawr, and Twyn y rhose, and late in the tenures of Magdalen Richards, David Richards, Richard David and Thomas Jones. Witnesses : Wm. Lewis; David Jones; Richard Philipps.
This indenture shows that Thomas took over Strygosfawr when David (his brother) moved to Ffos in 1756. It shows David giving up the tenancy, (1 year's notice), of Strygosfawr in 1769 and this, I presume, is the result of Thomas' decease.
David of Ffosybleiddiaid had 2 children that I know of. David of Tynllan and a Daughter, Elinor. Knowing the family traits, I'm sure that he must have had other children not yet identified.
I see that Joseph, the son of Jane and Owen Davies was unmarried. You may remember that he was bequeathed Ynysberfedd in the Rev. Edward's will of 1833. He continued to live there until his death in 1872. Living with him was his nephew, + wife+5 children and 2 servants. This shows that Jane and Owen also had a daughter, (Jane), married to a John Lewis. As soon as the females change their name on marriage they are invisible unless, like the item in your link, they are shown with their family name plus a residence reference.
regards Peter
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Apologies if this has been covered before,but is the fate/later residence of David(not of Ffos or Tynllan),son of Thomas of Strygos(but not resident after 1769),father of Jane,Edward,John and James,known?I can't see an obvious death or will for either Thomas or David of Strygos,but I may just be suffering from the plethora syndrome or plain forgetfulness or.......
Regards
Roger
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We know that Penbryn and Bryn Issa were owned by William Davies (after the 1762 Indent and the 1777 indent). Because Thomas and Jane are mentioned I would say that their son David moved to Bryn Issaf after the death of Thomas. (The 4 children had been born at Strygosfawr before this date, Jane is 13 and James is 7). The following extract from an Indent dated 1778 shows that William Davies lived at Penbryn.
Extract from an indenture of 1778
Elizabeth Davies of p. Lledrod, co. Card., widow, and Richard Davies of p. Llanvihangel Lledrod, gent. (brother of William Davies of Penbrynn in same p., gent.)
(Jane goes on to marry William Davies' son, Owen, (D1812), she dies in 1822 and it's at this point that Bryn Issa is left to the Rev. John Richards).
The whereabouts of the children are known after 1777 but there are no dates of death or wills for either David or his wife. With you having found Averina I believe that the Richard Richards, Excise Office, could well be another son of David of Ffosybleiddiaid.
regards Peter
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Hi Roger.
When poked with a sharp stick, this topic came to life again.
I have found a marriage between a David Richards of Lledrod and an Elizabeth Lewis of Llanbadarn Fawr that took place at St. Padarn's church, on the 6th of July, 1757.
I remember that, when trying to find the mother of John and James etc., we thought that it may have been Jane. Another problem concerned a previous guess at a marriage between a David and Elizabeth in Tregaron . I mentioned then that I had my doubts as this couple went a few years before having a family. Mentioned before is that when the Richards males marry, 92% of the brides are already pregnant!
The "new" Elizabeth fits into this category as Jane is born in the same year as the marriage,
Another avenue that we persued was the naming of children after their grand-parents. Whilst researching the Richards/Bridges family I see that their first daughter was named Mary, (after the wife's mother) but that the second daughter was named Elizabeth. The Rev. John's first daughter is also named Elizabeth and so too is James' first daughter.
The 'new' Elizabeth Died in 1790 so is not the Elizabeth mentioned in the final indenture for Bryn Isaf. She is described as 'widow' and, I believe, is related to the Richards family that seems to have been based in Llangwyryfon.
It's all circumstantial but most of our successes have started off like that.
Some info on Rev. Edward of Epsom. Sir Henry Bridges was his wife's brother and was also a gunpowder manufacturer. Edward had 6 sons ... 2 Vicars, 2 Surgeons, 1 Lawyer and 1 landowning gentleman.
What are your thoughts?
regards, Peter
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My initial thought is that it will take me some time to get back into the flow of the thread(!)I'm happy to do so,but you may need some patience.
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger.
Snow here and bitter cold. Patience is in abundance!
Regards, Peter
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Hi Roger.
Just a snippet. David moves to Ffosybleiddiad in 1757, leaving Strygosfawr in the hands of his brother Thomas and his wife Jane; thus giving their son David the space to get married and have a family.
Pulling info from various sources, ( Wills of the Revs. Edward and John ... gravestones etc.), it looks as if Jane and the Rev. John were both born in 1757 and were twins. James had twins, so too a son of the Rev. Edward of Epsom.
It looks as if 1757 was a key date in our search for the parents of John, Jane et al.
regards from Peter.
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I have to admit I'm struggling to pick up the flow/threads after this amount of time,but I will try again shortly.One thing that comes to mind,which may already have been explored,is records relating to the clergy.They are sometimes found in Oxford(or Cambridge) alumni records on Ancestry,and they are nearly always given as "..son of..." Not the easiest trawl with a name like Jones as we know..
Regards
Roger
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Not sure what made me put Jones!
Regards
Roger
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There is only one thing I've realised in going over old ground and that is that "Goley"(Golau),wife of David(1694 indenture,1756 will) and Lucy(daughter of Morgan,clerk,1749 will,son of David aforesaid)
both mean "light".Morgan is probably ackowledging his mother's name via his daughter.
I'll see if I can find anything more substantive.
Regards
Roger
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Continuing on the name theme-David of Llanddewi Brefi(1756 will) had a daughter Gwen.The mother of Edward Richard of Ystrad Meurig was also a Gwen.What if Edward and David were brothers(David naming his daughter after his mother).If then David's son Thomas(is he of the 1722 and 1738 indentures?) is the father of John(1758) and James(1763),this would make them nephews of Edward,where it all began,didn't it?
Would that also mean that David of Strygos was a son of this same Thomas,who would have to have died by 1769(wife Magdalen?) and David of Ffos was his brother(and son of David of Llanddewi Brefi).This latter speculation could be complete nonsense because
I think I'm gettng that old headache again......
Regards
Roger
Regards
Roger
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Deleted-error in memory(mine!)
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Hi Roger.
I've just read your posts. Too late at night here for me to reply but it's earmarked as the main job for the morning.
Regards, Peter.
PS I knew that "Dancing Mary Richards", the Rev. Morgan Richards' daughter would come back to haunt me!
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Where does the "Dancing" come from?
Regards
Roger
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From page 22 of this topic.
.
I quote the following from D.G. Osborne's book...
"It is also related that "merched ffeirad Rice, y Swydd, [i.e. the daughters of minister Rice] were the best dancers in the district. "Ffeirad Rice" was the Rev. Hugh Rice, incumbent of Lledrod, and one of the original trustees for Lledrod School under Dorothy Oliver's deed of settlement.
(Hugh Rice and his family lived at Menachty Hen, Swyddffynnon, a few meters from "Ty Dawns" where the dances were held).
regards, Peter.
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Hi Roger.
Here is a portion of the introduction to my Family Tree.
[Bryn Merllyd, itself lying in the administrative area of Mevenydd, including the parish of Lledrod Uchaf, contained a number of farms and most were, at one time, occupied by a generic Richard or Richards family. Attempts to link these various Richards branches, who all lived within a few minutes of each other, proved to be an almost insurmountable task.
To illustrate the problem, there were, in the early 1700's, a David Richards of Strygosfawr, a David Richards of Ffosybleiddiaid, and a David Richards of Ynysberfedd. Making matters worse was that they all had sons named David. There were also numerous Richards that were named Thomas. Here we have to include Edward Richard, the founder of the famous school at Ystradmeurig whose father was also named Thomas. Another David Richard and his family lived at Bronwenllwyd, a farm close to the previously mentioned farms. He died in 1668 and I see from his will of that date that, as well as bequests to his wife Mary and his two children, (Edward and Hanna David), he leaves money to another Richard family that bear the familiar first names of Thomas, John, Edward, Morris and Oliver. There is no indication in the will of the relationship between the two families but there is also a Mary Richard, shown as sister, and they may be her family. (The will was witnessed by a Lewis David). Also of interest is a David Richard of Clawdd Cerrig, Ysbyty Ystwith who died in 1722. His wife was named Magdalen and his father was Richard Thomas; his daughter was Jane Richard, his brother was Edward Richard and his cousin was Thomas David.]
You can see that I too had a suspicion that there were too many Thomases around for it to be pure coincidence. I'm quite satisfied with my own family that begins with Richard David of Strygos.There are positive links, through Indentures etc., from Richard David through to the Rev. John of Llanerchymedd, (my GX3 Grandfather) but I'm sure that there are other branches in the same area that have the same origins.
We followed the original family and descendants of the Rev. Rice Richards but could find no links to my family, however, as you say, he was the son of Morgan Richards, the son of David Richards who may well have been the son of David and Goley There are a few links to this family.
They lived at Ynysberfedd and later, Rice was involved in the founding of the School there before it was moved, first to Swyddffynnon and then to Ystradmeurig. Rice also had a son named Thomas so too Richard David of Strygos.
Looking at the families at Bronwenllwyd and Clawdd Cerrig illustrates the quagmire that we could fall into if we try to establish firm links that go back further than 1700 or so.
Looking for a death date for Elizabeth, the mother of the Rev. John has produced numerous possibilities. It seems that people from Lledrod were buried at Tregaron.
[There is a burial registry entry for an Elizabeth David Richards dated the 5th of Nov 1792 for Tregaron but it isn't know if this is Elizabeth, wife of David Richards].
Using English first names was almost compulsory in those days and this could help to explain the common-use names of Edward, Thomas, David, Jane and Elizabeth etc. in most families
Send your thoughts. Regards, Peter.
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Not a thought but some data in a different format which I don't remember seeing before.It is a list of freeholders in Lledrod in 1760 that includes a reference to "Scrygos" and ""Ffos y Ble..." Don't know if it helps.
https://ia802502.us.archive.org/3/items/westwaleshistori03hist/westwaleshistori03hist.pdf
Regards
Roger
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Thanks for that link. I've managed to glean some info from it as follows .....
Freeholders in Cardiganshire, (Lledrod) in 1760.
David Richards Ynys y garn Penbryn
Hugh Rice, Clrk Swydd y ffynnon Minister of the Parish
David Richards, junr. Ffos y bleithed Annuity out of Ffos y clay
David Richards Ffos y bleithed Pant y camddwr
Thomas Richards Scrygos Scrygos
Thomas Richards (his son) Do. Tynyrhelig
We see David of Ffosybleiddiad plus hs son David and behold, we see an undiscovered Thomas, son of Thomas, (Strygosfawr), living a short distance from the mill at Lledrod at a farm named Ty'n yr helig.
"Our David" is shown at Ynys y garn, Penbryn.
I realise that the Freeholder doesn't necessarily live at the property but this certainly helps to locate 'hidden' members of the family. I'm now looking for the location of the farms Ffos y clay and Pant y Camddwr. (Seen it before).
regards from Peter.
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Pant y Camddwr see #79
I have a feeling I've seen a reference somewhere to a FFos y Goy(or similar).
Regards
Roger
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There was a Pant Camddwr close to Navy Hall,Bronant,Lledrod.Approx. postcode SY23 4TF.
Regards
Roger
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I've found 'Pant Camddwr', (now Pontargamddwr). It's almost the closest farm to Ybysberfedd looking West.
Yes, I see the two farms near Bronant. I'm sure that the annuity for David Jnr. of Ffos comes from Ffosgoy, written as Ffos y clay.
Regards, Peter
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Hi Roger.
I found this today.
Part Of: Eaton Evans & Williams (Solicitors) Records
Description: 1. Letticia Richards of Rhyd Llwyd, parish of Lledrod, co. Cardigan, widow, and Thomas Richards of Y Penbrin, parish of Lledrod, aforesaid gent;. 2. Richard Edwards of Navy Hall, parish of Lledrod aforesaid, gent. Grant for £10 of a seat or pew adjoining the reading desk or pulpit in the parish church of Lledrod and belonging to a tenement called Pant y Camddwr.
Creation Date: 1764, March 16.
(£10 was a fortune in those days).
I need to locate Rhyd Llwyd and I've started trying to fix dates of birth and death for the members of the Richards family in Lledrod.
Regards, Peter.
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I was looking at maps earlier findng duplications of names,even PantCamddwr,and I'm sure I saw Rhyd Lwyd.I'll see if I can find it again.
Regards
Roger
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Yet again,I think there is more than one Rhyd L(l)wyd in the area.I think the one in your context is on this map,above Llanfihangel Lledrod and Waun Helyg(another familiar name).In censuses it is listed next to Chapel House:-
http://maps.nls.uk/view/101607988
http://www.archifdy-ceredigion.org.uk/sched/adx.1169.html
Regards
Roger
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I think a review of all place names might be useful,as there are "duplicates" of many of the names concerned.
Regards
Roger
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In case it proves useful,there is a will of 1747 for a David Morgan of Ffoes-Goy
Regards
Roger
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There is also a Daniel Morgan of Foes Goy as witness to the will of Elizabeth Richards Tynllan 1830.
Regards
Roger
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One thing that the pew purchase document shows is that Leticia, the wife of David of Foss, was a widow at this date so I've revised his death-date from 'before 1769' to 'before 1764'. Further careful reading of other docs show that she is a widow in 1762 as per the Indent. that shows the 'fine', along with Elizabeth Richards, widow.
A lot seems to have been happening at around this date. Indentures show Thomas purchasing Penbryn and Bryn Issa from Edward Richard, Schoolmaster in 1756. (His son David is still at Strygos). Thomas and his wife move to Penbryn and remain there until 1764.
We then have a completion of that purchase dated 1764 and, in the same year Thomas sells the property to William Davies and then, in the same year is shown granting a mortgage to Williams wife, Elizabeth Davies, who is now shown as 'widow'. David and Elizabeth Richards, plus the 4 children, must have moved to Bryn Issa when he gave up Strygos in 1770.
Working on the pregnant marriage syndrome, Jane marries Owen, the son of the above William and Elizabeth Davies in 1794 when she had her first child. (At this date, Owen was 60 years old - Jane was 37...they had one more child during 1795).
When Elizabeth Davies dies, her next of kin is her son Owen. When Owen dies in 1812 his wife Jane inherits Penbryn and Bryn Issa and, when she dies in 1822, the Rev. John Richards is left Bryn Issa. This property is shown in his will of 1832.
Narrowing the dates of death in this manner produces some results but takes time and a lot of detective work but it keeps us on our toes and helps to clarify the overall picture of this family.
I remember an indent' from the days of David and Goley, where part of the purchase agreement is that the path to Pontargamddwr remains open.
Regards from Peter.
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Ref line 5 and 6 of my last post.
Elizabeth Davies is shown as widow in a 1778 Indenture that passes the property to herself. This may be the death date for her husband, William.
Apologies. Peter
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I don't remember making reference to this piece of data before,apologies if I have.
In the Lledrod Monumental Inscriptions,nan the end of the sequence relating to Tynllan,(in particular the entry for David Richards(1747-1810) comes:-
William Williams,late of Esgair Gors,died 1808,aged 43.There is a record for William Williams,died 1808,:Lledrod aged 48.Perhaps it is a misread of a headstone.
Also Jane,wife of William Williams,died 1838,in her 69th year.
Then,David Willliams Ty'n-y-llan,died 1856 in his 43rd year.
I don't know why,but I feel William Williams name may be a variant on a patronymic.
Does this also imply a family connection between Tynllan and Strygos(Esgair Gors?)
Regards
Roger
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Just thought it might be worth a mention that a Tyddyn Pantcamddwr is mentioned,though I'm not quite sure in relation to whom, in the Thomas Davies 1701 will(the same one that gives Richard Davies as subtenant of Tyddyn Eskerygos).
Regards
Roger
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I've been having a read of some pre-Reformation stuff that states that the whole area to the south of Lledrod was known as Penbryn. In a topographical map it shows a line of three hills with Bryn Issa, Penbryn and Ynysberfedd on top of each one. I remember a document that gave Bryn Issa as being over 700 acres.
The Indenture that shows David giving up Strygosfawr was dated 1769, (with a year to completion), so the Richards family had nothing to do with the farm after 1770.
I have a note of that 1701 will ... it shows that Thomas Davies left six farms in the area and we mustn't forget Edward Richard, Schoolmaster leaving a dozen or more properties to the church in 1777.
The only link that I can propose with the Williams family is that they took over Strygos, (sometime after David vacated and returned the deeds to James Lloyd of Mabws). In such a small village William Williams would have known David Jnr. of Ffos and his wife Elizabeth ...(she died in 1830), when she lived at Tynllan.
The Ll.GC Wills section doesn't seem to work ... they say that It's in Beta ... I can still get indents though.
At various times, Bryn Issa has been called Tyddyn Bryn Issa. It just shows that the house was small.
Regards from Peter-
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How are you trying to access wills?
Regards
Roger
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This shortcut should get you to all wills.Then put in your search term in quotation marks,with more than one search term separated by +. e.g "Thomas Davies" + "Lledrod" + "1701"
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01izh/
Regards
Roger
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I can now access the Wills although I haven't tried my usual trick of searching for any Richards Wills in a defined area, during a defined timeline. Quick glimpse of the 1701 Will shows that Thomas Davies owned property in Llandewi-Brefi as well as Lledrod and that Strygos was left to his 'nephew and Godson'.
regards, Peter.
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From page 20 of this topic.
[Perhaps we can link William Davies, the next owner of Bryn Issaf to the Rev. Thomas Davies and Daniel, his brother, or to the mystery Thomas Davies of Wernvelen.]
The idea that there could be a link between the Davies family of Lledrod and the Davies of Lladewibrefi needs another poke with a sharp stick. It could well lead to another link with the Richards family but through David and Goley who were contemporaries of Morgan Richards' father, another David.
I'm off to Germany tomorrow for Winter Solstice shopping. Away for a couple of days.
regards, Peter.
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There is a Wernfelen,Pontrrhydfendigaid,Ystrad Meurig postcode SY25 6EL.I'll see what else I can find.
Regards
Roger
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There is a Thomas Davies,clerk who according to the CCed database is incumbent at Ystrad Meurig and Ysbytty Ystwith(St David's diocese) 1771-1801.There is then a will of 1801 for Thomas Davies,clerk,Pantyfedwen-which is close to Pontrhydfendigaid(and therefore Wern-felen).He has very extensive property interests.
Regards
Roger
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Found Wernfelen --- Directly East of Penbryn but not that far away. The Rev. Davies, (Guardian) goes back about 50 years before these 2 Parsons but I remember that David Richards Snr. of Llandewi had an enormous portfolio of property stretching from the coast to Llandewi and beyond.
I've done quite a bit of work on the Rev. Edward of Epsom, most of his children are now documented and I've been doing my sums and can't understand where his money came from. We know that the marriage Bond was £12,000 but his will shows an enormous sum of cash at the Bank of England plus the 6 farms in Wales and his Epsom house. The annuities to his 8 surviving children come to over half a million pounds per annum. (Calculated against the salary equivalent today).
He leaves the extensive house in Epsom to his wife but without cash, her being considered wealthy enough to get along with what she has already.
regards, Peter.
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I see an In denture showing William Davies selling Penbryn to his brother Richard in 1778. The next indent' in this deal says that Richard never came up with the money so that Penbryn reverts back to William.
Leaving here for Gothenburg to catch the ship to Germany so I'll see you on Friday.
regards, Peter
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Back from Germany ... hung-over and whacked. Angela Merkel says, "Hello Roger".
regards, Peter
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Try to resume tomorrow then.
Regards
Roger
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Reading that last quoted Indenture for William and Thomas Davies, they use the term. "fine" in the second indenture. I think that the term can be taken as, "cancelled" and this throws some light on the indenture that shows a fine being levied on Elizabeth Richards, Widow, etc.
Quoting my post from 3 Dec.
[Further careful reading of other docs show that she is a widow in 1762 as per the Indent' that shows the 'fine', along with Elizabeth Richards, widow.]
The "fine" refers to an original agreement made between the parties in 1762 but is cancelled in the 1770s. I think that the Elizabeth Richards shown in that indent' is the mother of John and James et al, and that she is shown as a widow by the 1770s but wasn't one in 1762 ... ditto may apply to Leticia, the wife of David of Ffos, also shown as widow.
This interpretation of the indent' explains why Elizabeth, although shown as a widow in 1762, has another child, James, in 1763. (I have a photo of his grave that confirms his date of birth).
One simply worded indent' helps to interpret the more complex. I wonder what else we've missed on the way.
Regards, Peter.
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Just been printing out some indentures,and I came across a (later)probate reference for Griffith Thomas of Llanbdarn Vawr that refers to his "...son in law,David Richard and his wife Goley..."
The will is 1694 and he leaves them one shilling!
(I am printing the indentures in an attempt to identify the various "Davies" who are involved).
Regards
Roger
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We've never been able to place David and Goley in the Richards of Lledrod family. Your discovery shows that, like David, (father of John and James etc.) he married a girl from Llanbadarn Fawr. There was another indenture dated 1683 where a David and Maurice Richards were mentioned but no details of any property being involved. The next indent' shows D and G as being married C1693 and being involved in the purchase of Ynysperfedd. Their son David Jnr. is shown in the next one, dated 1721. (Dates are from memory).
Could you send me the link to the Crosswood Papers again. I'm on my third PC since this topic was started and each crash has left me without links and other helpful notes. Damn it!
Regards, Peter.
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Hope this is what you are after
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j0s/
Regards
Roger
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No, not these. If you remember we had all of the indentures from the early 1600's to 1722 on one link, then from 1772 onwards. It was where all of the indentures that we quote in the Topic came from.
Regards, Peter.
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Can't say I remember such a single link,but,if so,it must be in the thread somewhere.I will look tomorrow.
Regards
Roger
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Your link was OK. I've just figured out how to search for a specific item. Hurrah!
Regards, Peter
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I see from the indents that relate to David and Goley in respect of Ynys bryn Perfedd show D+G and their son, David passing the property to a Thomas Richard of Bwlch y ddwy allt, Caron in 1721. (This is the one where they reserve the right of way from Ynysperfedd to the Afon Teifi.
Of interest is that Bwlch etc- is directly opposite Bryn Perfedd, on the other bank of the Teifi.
The following indent shows a David Richards of Lledrod (Ffos), providing a bond for a mortgage. I think that the second David Richards (of Caron) that's shown, is the son of D+G. I'm sure that there is a will for this David somewhere. (Note that David of D+G was a yeoman. This David is a Gent).
[Description: Bond in the penalty of £240 from David Richards of p. Lledrod, co. Card., gent., to Edward Andrew of p. Llanyre, co. Rad., gent., for the observance by the obligor of an indenture, being a mortgage of £120 by way of a demise for 500 years, from David Richards of p. Caron, co. Card., gent., to Edward Andrew of p. Llanyre, co. Rad., gent., of a moiety of three parts of an ancient tmt called Tythin-y-bryn-merllyd in the grange of Mevenidd, co. Card.
Related Titles: Crosswood Estate Records,
Creation Date: 1753, Dec. 11.]
I also wonder whether D+G were related to the Thomas of Bwlch. They would have been deceased by 1753. There is a will, 1808 for a Thomas Richards of Caron. He has a son Richard and, of course, the obligatory David.
regards, Peter
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See reply #150 on this thread.
Regards
Roger
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Just read the reply #150. It looks so complicated but it doesn't seem to help the 'general cause', (although there are tantalizing names of people and places to cause interest). I've said before that I think that all of the Richard/Richards/David are related one to the other and the further back we go the harder it is to see the 'hidden' connections.
There appear to be certain parties involved with the "half of three parts" of Penbryn. The first is David and Goley Richards; then Thomas Richards of Bwlch, until it eventually ends up in the hands of the Davies family and through them, to Jane Richards, the wife of Owen Davies, son of William.
The address for the residence of Thomas Richards' 1808 Will (of Caron) is difficult to read. It appears to start with Strygos and ends in fawr, Caron but this may be wishful thinking. He has a 'reputed' son and daughter, plus other 'regular' children leaving good cash to them as well as instructions to pay off a mortgage from someone named Davies!
regards, Peter
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I think the 1808 address says "Esgermaen Fawr"
Regards
Roger
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I wonder if there is anything significant in the entry for Scrygos attributed to John Davies of "Gallyges",Llangeitho at the same time as Thomas Richards in the list of freeholders(1760) as before
https://ia802502.us.archive.org/3/items/westwaleshistori03hist/westwaleshistori03hist.pdf
I think Gallyges is probably Gae'r Llugest or Cae'r Llugest close to Cwrt Mawr(where there was a Davies family also)
There is a 1738 indenture which mentions a John Davies of Llangeitho in relation to a moiety of a property called "Llwyn y kedney".There is mention of Llwynykedni or Llwynycedni,elsewhere I'm sure in relation to other Davies.
Regards
Roger
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There are two Davies in the Caron List ... William Davies of Wernfelen and his son, Thomas Davies, living at, and with a Freehold at Ystrad.
I see that the Freehold of Pantycamddwr is held by David of Ffos. (this links to the "Pew" indent), and that Penbryn is the home of David Richards but that he owns the Freehold of Ynys y Garn.
Llwynykedni is so familiar but I can't locate it.
I can feel a stinker of a cold heading my way so forgive any ridiculous mistakes that I may make over the next few days.
I also see the expenditure, from 1746, for repairs and materials to Ynys y Garn, paid by Crosswood.
Regards, Peter
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I will try to fnd llwynycedni on on the map.There is reference to it in a 1694 indent between Charles Pryse(or Pryce) and David Richard with wife Goley.
There is also an 1828 will for a Thomas Davies under Llwyncedni.
Regards
Roger
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I can't find Llwyncedni on a map,but I can find it in the 1851 census where it is next to Cefn Llwyn.The aproximate postcode is SY25 6AP-which puts it not too far from Bryn Issa.
Regards
Roger
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I can't find Llwyncedni either although there is a Llwynybeudy close to Cefn Llwyd. There are various little squares showing buildings in this area but I should think that they are sheds and barns. We know that names of houses change over the years and if there is a will linking Thomas Davies to Llwyncedni it is the type of dwelling that would still exist today, albeit under another name.
Sniffing and sneezing here. Regards, Peter.
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I have found an earlier reference to Llwyn y kedney in the 1696 will of Richard David of Ysbyty Ystwyth-somewhat surprising given the 1694 indent regarding Charles Pryce(Pryse/Price).
It is a very difficult read and I will try to make more sense of it tomorrow.
Hope you are feeling better.
Regards
Roger
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Yes, feeling better but not yet 100%. I remember having a go at reading that will but gave it up as a bad job. (It's classified as a 'Vision Ruiner').
Having noticed that there are a number of people with the surname 'David' living in our general area of interest, prior to 1700, it could be that the Richard David, (1698 Will) is the father of David (D+G). From memory D+G married at around 1698 ... Llwynycedni seems to be a concrete link between the two.
regards, Peter
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You are right about the "vision ruiner"but I will give it one last go.
Regards
Roger
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Had a quick look and noted some things.
Quotes
Llwyn y kedni, now in the hands of Lewis Rees.
Mentions Rees David and Richard David.
A second daughter, Char ...? Richard.
Bottom of 1st page, Brynffos..?
2nd page.
Rhwng y ddwy Clawdd and Tin y rhose, (Ysbyty Ystwyth).
Damn it that the names of people and places are so badly written.
Off to bed now. Regards, Peter
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I have eldest daughter Jane for Llwyn y kedney(in posession of Lewis Rees)
Possibly Rees David and Richard David in relation to a 1679 agreement re Ty'n y Clawdd(but destined for Jane?)
A daughter Margaret in relation to an unknown property and possibly a Tir Keven y Deunant?
and/or Tir ? y Dwy Clawdd
Tir y Rhose
Son Evan-money
Wife Gwen
Regards
Roger
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I've been peering at old maps of the area in and around Ysbyty Ystwyth and can't locate any of the properties that are mentioned in the will. Even, 'sounds like' doesn't click in my mind. I did have a thought that, because of the extensive lead-mining in the area, they may have been destroyed but I have a map as old as the will and that doesn't produce anything either. It looks as though the deciphering of the will won't produce anything that is usable, although the names of the people mentioned could strike gold but, there again, the names are probably a mix of Patronymics. This Richard David shows the same patern as the one at Esgair-y-gors where the children are named Richards but there are plenty of David folk also.
Just a thought ...could it be that some of the properties are not in Ysbyty Ystwyth at all... Ty'n y Rhose was mentioned in the sale of the Mill at Lledrod.
Regards, Peter
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I may have found two of the properties mentioned.It seems reasonable that Llwyn y kedney/Llwyncedni(as per 1851 census) are synonymous and with the adjacent properties being Swydd and Cefn Llwyn,which are at approximate postcode SY25 6AP.Adjacent to Cefn Llwyn is a Ty'n y Clawdd which is also mentioned in the will.Back again in Bryn Isaf territory.
Regards
Roger
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Agreed. I keep trolling the maps and spot Properties that are known to us and that is why I was sure that the Will was referring to places not in Ysbyty Ystwyth. At the early dates that we are looking at, (1690's), the Parish boundaries may not have been what they were a bit later. There is also a will dated 1677 for another Thomas Richards of Ysbyty; he has sons Richard and David Thomas. properties in his Will are Tyddyn Llwyn Gofre, Tyddyn y Clawdd Kerig and Tyddyn-pant-y-ffynnon. (The latter I've located at 2 km directly East of Ysbytty). I'm sure that we're dealing with the same family group. Sorting them out .... now that's another problem!
Regards, Peter
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Time for a groan again-I'm pretty sure I've seen at least two or possibly three Pant y Ffynnons in the area.The properties in the will you refer to are identical to the 1722 will of David Richard(!)
Regards
Roger
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I think I may also have found Clawdd Kerrig,Llwyn y Goffre and possibly Ty'n y Rhose.Clawdd Kerrig was sometimes rendered Cloddie Cerrig and I believe it is simply Cloddiau on the following map adjacent to Llwyn Gafri and Ty'n y Rhos towards the top left hand corner.The "stepping stones" nearby have an echo of the "cerrig" name.
http://maps.nls.uk/view/101608042
Regards
Roger
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It may also mean the Pant y Ffynnon in question is toward the top right hand corner of the adjacent map.
http://maps.nls.uk/view/101608033
Regards
Roger
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Referencing the Parish boundaries again; I see that the Will of Richard David of Strygosfawr comes under the Parish of Ystrad Meyric although, later, the farm comes within the Parish of Lledrod.
I'm always on the lookout for any link to RD of Strygos when reading other Wills. The Strygos Will is about as simple as it gets and mentions his wife and children. There are no other relatives shown to give us a clue as to who his parents were or how old he was at death.
Using the average age for marriage as 35 we see that his eldest son, David of Ffos, marries Letticia in 1735 giving his estimated DOB as C1700. Richard David, marrying at 1700 would have an estimated DOB of 1665. The problem is that the Wills that we have been reading, although showing a few Richard Davids as relatives, don't indicate their ages.
We could be looking straight at the correct family, without knowing it; nephews, sons and cousins could be of any age.
The same too for David and Goley's forebears. He married C1698 which places him at the same Circa DOB as RD of Strygos. Thomas Richards, (Edward Richard, Schoolmaster's father), would also be of the same approximate DOB.
There is an indication showing that particular families tended to stay in the same area and I would tend towards Lledrod as being the source of my family line. I'll have another read of the Will of David Richard of Bronwenllwyd, dated 1668. (within the cluster of family in Lledrod), to see whether I've missed anything.
Regards, Peter.
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Well spotted Pant y ffynnon. I may be using maps that are too old and therefore haven't enough detail.
Regards, Peter
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I can't find the 1668 will you refer to-can you check the precise details please.
Regards
Roger
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I can't find it either but I still have the notes for it....
"Another David Richard and his family lived at Bronwenllwyd, a farm close to the previously mentioned farms. He died in 1668 and I see from his will of that date that, as well as bequests to his wife Mary and his two children, (Edward and Hanna David), he leaves money to another Richard family that bear the familiar first names of Thomas, John, Edward, Morris and Oliver. There is no indication in the will of the relationship between the two families but there is also a Mary Richard, shown as sister, and they may be her family. (The will was witnessed by a Lewis David)".
This has happened before with other Wills where I'm reading it one day and the following day there's no trace of it ! I've tried different variants of name and dates without result.
I remember that you read this will too and our comments may be in the topic somewhere. (I thought that the daughter's name was Ssana but you corrected my reading to show Hanna).
Regards, Peter
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It may be a will of David Richard 1688 you are referring to but there is no Bronwenllwyd in the title at least.
Regards
Roger
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Yes, it was the one dated 1688. (Badly scribbled notes).
Bronwenllwyd appears on line 18, the first word. Preceding it is that he leaves the place to his son and daughter ... "the lands known as Bronwenllwyd". I'll have a better read of it in the morning when my eyes are rested!
regards, Peter.
Morning ... it wasn't the badly scribbled notes ... I think that I need glasses!
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The following could easily be just a number of unconnected coincidences,but for what it's worth:-
In the 1851 census at Llwyncedni there is a Mary Evans(lodger,unmarried) given born 1779,Lledrod
(It is possible that this is the same Mary Evans who is at Ynysygarn in 1841 along with a Margaret Evans given born 1751.There is a LLedrod burial record for Margaret Evans 1749-1848).
The adjacent property in 1851 is "Swydd" and this is occupied by a Joseph Williams and his wife Margaretgiven born 1798,Cardiganshire. in both censuses.
It is obviously Joseph's second marriage as in 1841 there is a Margaret,David and John Evans as well as Williams surname children and grandchildren.There is an 1837 marriage of Joseph Williams,widower to a Margaret Evans(status unspecified) in 1837 which fits nicely.
In the 1851 census only Margaret Evans remains of the stepchildren,and ,interestingly,she is given as born London.In a giant leap of unsupported faith I have found an 1824 marriage of a David Evans to a Margaret Richards in Southwark(the first two of the later stepchildren having these forenames).
That is as far as I have got at the moment,but even without a valid Richards/London connection it seems worth pursuing,if possible,the Margaret Evans born circa 1750 who emerges at Ynys Y Garn in the 1841 census,given the 1760 freehold you referred to.
Regards
Roger
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I've been painstakingly going through the wills for all surnames, 'David', from 1680 to 1720, trying to find any links to Richard David of Strygos ... without any luck. Going from the names and relationships they look, to all intents and purposes, as if they aren't related at all.
Your last post shows a rare thing ... a 99 year old woman!
I look forwards to the result of the London connection!
I am the designated chef for tomorrow; apparently it's someone's birthday so I'll have a day off from Wills and the like.
Regards, Peter.
For readers of this topic, may I remind you of the dangers of overindulgence. In the account of the funeral of Edward Richard, Schoolmaster in 1777... "It took eight strong men to carry the coffin, him being so large in later life".
And for those that look to religion to provide a wonderful life, this was written of the Rev. Hugh Rice of Lledrod, he that used to have dances at Swyddfynnon and whose daughter was the best dancer in the County.
"The poor old man is upwards of 100 and has been blind for more than 16 years. He is a downright miser and does not care to part with his money".
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Maybe with patronymics it should be all wills with the "surname" Richard (groan!)
Have a good rest over the next few days.
Regards
Roger
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A change of direction nearer the heart of the matter,I hope.
In looking back,it seems to me that a key person in trying to link families is Joseph Davies of Brynperfedd as he is both a nephew to Rev. Edward Richards of Epsom,as per the 1833 will and has nephews in the 1861 and 1871 censuses.
I have examined the census and other data and it looks to me that a common family is that of John Jones,blacksmith,seen initially at the Swydd Smithy in 1841(HO107/1374/11/8/9) and at ? Gof,Tregaron in 1851(HO107/2487/28/7)
I think the John Jones,nephew,born 1842,with Joseph in 1861,is the second John born to this couple,the first in 1833 dying in 1834.
I further suspect that it is Jane Lewis(mmn Jones,married to John Lewis in Tregaron district 1862?)
who is the niece with her husband being a "nephew in law).I think only a marriage certificate would prove her identity.
There are two interesting things about this family:-
The wife is given in the birth records of Jane and the first John as mmn Aurelia Davies,although in some instances she is mis(?)transcribed as Amelia.In censuses she is given as born Llanyre Radnorshire.With such a name you would think it easy to trace her-think again!
If you trace John Jones forward to the 1871 census,he is with his mother Aurelia and described at length on the original as "Vicar of Ysbytty Ystwyth cum Ystrad Meurig and Master of Ystrad Meuurig Grammar School"
Regards
Roger
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This is the entry that I have for Jane Richards, the sister of the Rev. Edward. I can't, as yet, see where the Jones nephew fits in with the family as I have it. Logically, Jane and John Lewis's only daughter, Mary Jane Lewis, (1840), must have married a Jones to produce a nephew, however, when "nephew-in-law" is introduced, then I can read your line of thought and I see the John and Jane (was Jones), (both B1834), that you refer to. I have added your initial work to the entry, and, in the new 'simplified form', looks good enough to be true.
I wonder whether "Swydd Smithy" refers to a Smithy at Swydd-y-ffynnon or whether it refers to the farm, 'Swydd'.
Regards, Peter.
1. Jane born Lledrod [/b](1757-1822)
She was married to Owen Davies. (1733-1812).
They had 2 known children.
*Joseph Davies. (1794-1872). Unmarried.
Jane Davies. (1795-) She Married John Lewis (1814- ) of Llangoedmor.
They had 5 children.
Joseph (1833- )
He married Jane Richards, at Tregaron in 1858.
John (1834- ) Wife is Jane, (1834)
** New info ... Jane Jones. The
John Jones, Nephew, shown below, is believed to be
her brother. Jane and John Jones' parents are believed
to have been John and Aurelia (Amelia) Jones, of
Swydd Smithy. John is shown with his mother in the
1871 census and is later shown as becoming the
"Vicar of Ysbyty Ystwyth cum Ystrad Meurig and the
Master of Ystrad Meurig Grammar School"
Lewis (1837- )
Thomas Owen. (1839- )
Mary Jane. (1840- )
*In the 1851 census Joseph is at Ynysberfedd, (72 acres),
together with 3 servants.
In the 1861 he is at Ynysberfedd, (141 acres), together with a
nephew, John Jones, (1842), and 3 servants.
In the 1871 census Joseph is still at Ynysberfedd (141 acres), but
now has his brother-in-law, John Lewis, (1814), plus wife Jane and
5 children and 2 servants.
Joseph died in 1872.
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Do you have any info on the family/origins of David Meredith who is at Ffos y bleiddiaid?
Regards
Roger
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No I don't have anything on David Meredith. There was something at the beginning of this Topic when I thought, wrongly, that it was a David Meredith Richards, the son of David of Ffos, but this was corrected by a lady to read David Meredith. This David Meredith took over the tenancy of Ffos in 1770.
Quoting you from page 25 of this Topic regarding Elizabeth, the daughter-in-law of David of Ff0s.
[Of Elizabeth Richards' other children the record for Morgan Owens(1775-1859) looks promising as he is at Penlan in the 1841 census, the other property specified in one of the wills.(There was a Pen y Lan in the Thomas Davies 1701 will also, but this is a very, very common name)
Interestingly, there is a John Meredith staying with him, who, while the age looks wrong, is possibly the son of David Meredith of Ffosybleiddiaid.]
I have a David Meredith quoted as being an Elder or Deacon of a Chapel in Lledrod in 1851.
regards, Peter
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Found at Oxford.
JOHN P. JONES.
Jones, John, o.s. John, of Lledrod, co. Cardigan, gent. Jesus Coll. , matric. 24. May, 1861, aged 19; clerk 1861-4, scholar 1864-6, H.A. 1866, M.A. 1870, head- master of Lledrod and Ystrad-Meurig Grammar School 1870, vicar of Yspytty-Ystwyth, co. Cardigan, since 1870.
Regards, Peter
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Whisper it quietly for fear it disappears before our very eyes,but I tihink I have found a timely Joseph Davies/Richards link.
Thinking as usual that there might be a family naming tradition I looked for Joseph Davies in the general area around the time of "Joseph the nephew's" birth(circa 1794 according to census).
I found a will for a Joseph Davies,Caron 1780,obviously not a potential father,but possibly a grandfather.Most interestingly he leaves to his daughter Margaret Davies "the title deeds he has in his possession for a property called EsgairMaenFawr.This surely is the same property that Thomas Richards bequeaths in his 1808 will(gent,Caron).
The 1780 will of Joseph Davies appears to acknowledge some debt to a Petter Davies of Glyn.The footnotes in the article re freeholders in 1760 gives a Peter Davies of Glyn(ne) as the probable son of John Davies of Llangeitho who has the interest in "Scrygos".I think there is a succession of Peter Davies in Glyn,including up to the 1841 census.
In coming to ascribe the parentage of the Joseph Davies of interest(circa 1794),I might probably dismiss the 1786 record with parents Edward and Ann(though Joseph,will 1780,has a son Edward).
There is a very interesting record for twins,Joseph and Jane,born to a John David and Margaret his wife,of Gilfach y Gwyddil,in 1794.Gilfach y Gwyddil is adjacent to Caerllugest,the abode given for the John Davies of Llangeitho with the interest in "Scrygos".Moreover,there is a marriage record for a John David to Margaret Joseph(the patronymic form surely) in Llangeitho in 1785.
I haven't yet been able to make the final connection across to Thomas Richards.
Regards
Roger
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It looks to me that John David and his wife Margaret have burial records that give:-
John David 1754-1810
Margaret 1764-1804
Regards
Roger
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I think I had better re-check the wills I read to confirm who may have had the debt to Pe(t)ter Davies,and for what,in case the property passed by forfeit and not direct lineage.
Regards
Roger
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Having now read the Joseph Davies will of 1780 and the will of Thomas Richards 1808, both of Caron. The only link between the two families that I can see is that the farm, Esgair maen Fawr carried a mortgage in both cases. Joseph Davies owes his mortgage to Jenkin Rees and, later, Thomas Richards owes his mortgage to Jenkin Davies. Joseph has a grand-daughter called Anne Rees but none of his daughters in the will are shown with that surname.
Is the John Jones, nephew, B1794, the son of John and Aurelia Jones of the Smithy at Swydd, being converted somehow into your "Joseph the nephew B1794" (Davies).
It looks to me as if the Joseph Davies was also a Smith. He leaves the Smithy shop to his son, (whose first name I can't make out). I can't see a Petter Davies in this will either.
Your thoughts on this complicated matter.
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Whether or not there is any relationship between between the families of the 1780 and 1808 wills,the will of Rev Edward Richards of Epsom(1833) clearly references Joseph David(and I'm now more certain it says David) of Ynys Berfedd.I thought he was referred to as a nephew,and,as he also had his own nephews staying with him in later censuses I thought that this dual aspect may reinforce data concerning any family identity,and possibly explain the Richards/Davies interest in "Scrygos".I realise that a Joseph Davies of "Ynys" is buried next to Owen Davies and Jane of Ynys Berfedd,but as far as I am aware the MI does not state that he is their son and I haven't seen a birth/baptism record that supports it either.It is a natural conclusion to draw,but is it correct?There could easily,I suppose, be two Joseph Davids born in the same area in possibly he same year.
The real difficulty I have is confidently reading the critical lines of Edward Richard's will.There looks like another (small) word may have been cut off in the copying(?)and it might read ".....my nephews at Joseph Davies Ynys Berfedd..." which could alter everything.
I'm not having the best of days-I've lost the Pet(t)er Davies reference too!
Regards
Roger
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I've had another good look at the Will of Rev. Edward of Epsom. Without doubt it shows "nephews Joseph Davies" ... what you describe as a small word at the end of the line is in fact a "space filler" to stop anything being added, (it looks like a Pi symbol)l and is found at the end of most of the 'line ends' in the Will.
Having refreshed my view of Owen Davies and Jane (was Richards) family. I mentioned earlier that Owen, B1733, was 61 when he had his first child, Joseph, B1794. His second child, Jane, was born a year later. Joseph never married and Jane, married to John Lewis, had her first child, (last quarter of 1833), after the Rev. Edward had died. So we see that there was only one nephew at Ynysberfedd.
The Thomas Richards of Scrygos (sic) is simply Thomas the father of David, the father of the Rev. John etc. still living at Strygos Fawr at this date. (1760).
The copy I have of the will is in Jpg format and is crystal clear even when magnified and is much easier to read compared to seeing it on the LlgC site.
I'm also reminded that the Freehold of Ynysberfedd was acquired by the Rev. Edward sometime between 1818-20 when he also bought some of the Hafod Estate which was being sold at that time. Edward's son George inherited Ynysberfedd in the will ... George, living at Tregaron, committed suicide in 1854 and Ynysberfedd was passed on to his brother.
Regards, Peter.
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While looking to satisfy myself on the two Janes,wife and daughter of Owen Davies,and failing to find a convincing record,I did come across the following in Ystrad Meurig MIs.They are sequentially numbered,and it looks like they are a related group,interesting in the light of the presence of Reverend John Jones,and,eparately,a reference to Ynys.
85 : Joseph D Lewis son of John and Jane Lewis,Cwm-meurig died 29th January in his 36th year,and his wife Kate Lewis died Sept 7th 1909 in her 44th year
86 : The Rev. John Jones M.A. 1842-1915,Vicar of Ystrad Meurig and Ydbyty Ystwyth and Head Master of St John's College
Also his children
Hedone Augusta 1881-1966
Amy Gwladys 1886-1975
The Reverend George Davys Jones 1884-1975 Rector of Llanfor,Rural Dean of Penllyn
87 : James,son of John and Jane Lewis Cwmmeurig,Gwnnws Uchaf,born 10th May 1872,died August 8th 1808
88 : Jane wife of John Lewis Cwmmeurig,Gwnnws Uchaf born 19th April 1832 died 5th March 1907
John Lewis born 24th November 1833 died 8th March 1918
89 : John,son of John and Jane Lewis,Ynys,Lledrod Uchaf,born June 23rd 1864,died June 2nd 1886
Regards
Roger
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Thanks for the new info. It all looks straightforward but wait a minute, there's something amiss!
Item 85 on your post shows Joseph D. Lewis, son of John and Jane Lewis with a wife called Kate. My records show Joseph marrying a Jane Richards at Tregaron in 1858. Suspicion is that Kate is Joseph's second wife. For example, Kate is 31 years younger than Joseph and where did I get the details for his marriage to Jane (was Richards) in 1858. Needs your expertise to check that my suspicions are correct.
Regards, Peter
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There may be a duplication in names in different generations.The Joseph D Lewis in #85 isn't born until 1863,so I don't think he married in 1858!
Regards
Roger
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I have found the Petter Davies reference - it is in the will of Thomas Richards of Caron 1808.Peter is almost certainly of the line of Peter Davies of the 1738 indenture,son of John Davies of the 1760 "Scrygos" freehold interest.It is difficult to say whether any connection is familial/tenency/business.
Regards
Roger
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Yes, point taken ... I think that I may have missed one generation. Intermittent internet connection here due to storm in the area but I'll do a bit of searching tomorrow using the new info that you provided.
Regards, Peter.
Just received you post re. Petter. Did we ever do any research on the Davies who was the full tenant of Strygos when Richard David was his under-tenant?
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That was Thomas Davies of the 1701 will.It is that connection I'm looking to find.
Regards
Roger
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I've had a look at that 1701 will without spotting anything that I can use except that he was the true tenant of Strygos. I've been trying to work backwards from Owen Davies, the husband of Jane (was Richards). As he was born in 1733 his father must have been born in the late 1690's. His parents were probably William and Elizabeth Davies, shown at Penbryn in 1777 with Elizabeth being shown as a widow in 1778. An Indenture of 1778 shows that Elizabeth Davies is a widow but that there is still a William Davies at Penbryn. This William may have been an older brother of Owen Davies ... another brother, Richard Davies is shown in an Indenture of 1772.
At least we have some names to look out for in Wills for other Davies in the area. There was no will for William Davies, senior.
regards from Peter.
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I have some further data and speculation
I am beginning to think the "Scrygos" listed for John Davies in Llangeitho is not the same as that for Lledrod.though that does not necssarily also imply no relationship between the parties involved.I have always wondered why the property you were interested in was Strygos Fawr,particularly,as we had only ever found a Strygos(aka Esgair y Gors?).
In looking for Esgair Maen Fawr.common between the wills of Joseph Davies((1780) via his daughter Margaret,and Thomas Richards(1808) i came across a property called Esgair y Gors Fach,though there was no "Fawr" near by.It is close to Esgair Maen Fawr and another property called Blaen yr Esgair(and yet again there are very similar addresses in the general area).The approximate postcode is SY25 6LS,so you will see this conglomeration is not too far from other main properties of interest.
I suspect this Blaen yr Esgair(or similar) is the abode of the Thomas Richards of the 1808 will,and very ppossibly that of a Thomas Richard n 1761.
Building in to further speculaiton,there is a footnote in the following that says John Davies,son of Peter Davies of Caerllygest married Margaret,daughter of Joseph Davies of Penlan.Some caution will need to be taken linking the Petter Davies of the 1780 Joseph Davies will to this,as he may have been from Glyn(ne).
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j6b/
If I now turn to the 1701 Thomas Davies (Lledrod will) he specifies amongst others two nephews,Thomas and David John of Blaenpennal.If you are using the NLS website for maps,the square with Blaenpennal contains Esgair Maen Fawr etc).
Thomas is given in respect of Eskerygos(Fach or Fawr?) and Tyddyn yr Eithion Gleison(next to the "plain" Esgair y Gors(Fawr?)
David is given in respect of Pen Y Lan(Blaenpennal),Ffos Helligg(later Richard Davies,1795 indent?) and PantCamddwr).i
As nephews of Thomas Davies I wonder if these are patronymic names for brothers,sons to a John Davies,brother to Thomas,perhaps of the Caerllygest family?
Regards
Roger
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Just getting ready for tonight's festivities ... we are an hour ahead of UK time.
We have never been able to find the 'Twyn y rhose' in relation to Strygos in Lledrod ... is there anything like that in your guess at there being another Strygos. Edward Richards, the 2nd son of James of Lledrod was a farmer at Ynys Ynyd in Llandyfrydog, Anglesey. After purchasing more land the farm changed its' name to Ynys Fawr ... there isn't an Ynys Bach there either.
I quote this Indent. (It show the whole early Richards family at Strygosfawr from Richard David, to David and Thomas Richards his sons).
D.D.1460.Indenture, dated 1 Aug. 1769, being a lease for a year (so that a grant by release might be made) from David Richards of Strygosfawr in the parish of Lledrod, CO. Cardigan, gent, (son and heir of Thomas Richards of the same place, gent., deceased by Magdalen his wife) to James Lloyd of Mabus, Cardigan, esq., of messuages and lands in the said parish of Lledrod, called Strygos otherwise Strygos- fawr, and Twyn y rhose, and late in the tenures of Magdalen Richards, David Richards, Richard David and Thomas Jones. Witnesses : Wm. Lewis; David Jones; Richard Philips.
Another early Indent from 1638 that shows the same place and position in Bryn Merllyd.
1638, Sept. 21
INDENTURE, (counterpart), being a grant from John Vaughan of Trowscoed, co. Card., esq., to Rees David ap Oliver of Lledrod, co. Card., gent., of a tmt called Llwyn-y-malis, and parts of two tmt’s called Esker-rygos and Bryn-merllyd in Lledrod aforesaid and in gr. Mevenith, co. Card.,
Happy New Year from Peter.
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I did wonder whether the Ty'n y Rhos near Llwyn Gofre might be it,and they are both near a different Blaen yr Esgair than the one I identified earlier!In the NLS maps they are in the top left quadrant of the square marked Ffair Rhod.
Regards
Roger
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I wonder where we reached the conclusion that Strygos was an earlier badly written version of 'Esgair y gors'.
The problem now, if we discount that thought, is that there are many farms with Strygos in the name. Finding the most obvious one, with a Twyn y rhose close by etc., could be a fruitful exercise and help us to link the earlier wills to the family that we know. From the Indentures we are certain that Strygos/Strygos Fawr is firmly fixed in Lledrod so we won't have to search outside the parish boundaries.
That's it for this evening. We've celebrated the old Pagan New Year, (me) on the 21st of Dec. We celebrate the Russian Orthodox New Year on the 13th January, (her) and tonight, we have the same as everyone else, specifically, because this is only one of two days in Sweden that we are allowed to set off fireworks and make as much noise as we can!
"Gott Nytt År" from Peter.
For the readers in Cardiganshire. "Blwyddyn Newydd Da".
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The mistaken identification of Strygos as being Esgair-y-gors is shown on page 9 of this Topic. Like a lot of the stuff that we've looked at, it all seemed reasonable at the time and was probably brought about by the fact that we couldn't find anywhere called Strygos. I've had a look at an old map of Lledrod, upper and lower, and still can't find it. Damn.
Regards, Peter
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I don't think it was necessarily a mistake,it's just that I've now seen the "fach" version that I hadn't seen before and that made me wonder.It may be that the original is correct but just not referred to on the map as"fawr".In the 1841 census there is reference to Esgerygors Uchaf and Isaaf in "LLanfihangel Lethyr Troed" which appear at the start of a folio,so perhaps on a parish boundary edge.I always find it difficult to know which parish/boundary is applicable.Perhaps in the 1760 freeholders the |"Scrygos" under Lledrod is the "fawr" and that under Langeitho is the "fach".
Regards
Roger
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I'm having another think regarding the name-changes for Esgair Y Gors. The 1760 Freeholders show it as Scrygos and other Indents show it as Strygos. Both of these shortened names would fit into my original comment regarding the scribes of the day ... if you add the strictly local manner of speech then, once again, it looks as if we may have been correct on page 9.
I think that the main reason for the name changes is simply the transposition of a spoken word into the scribe's attempt at a phonetic reproduction of the name. The fact that we haven't been able to find a Strygos speaks volumes and the fact that Esgair is slap-bang in the 'centre of operations' for the same family line that started with Richard David is also a big plus. We always have problems reading the names of properties shown in Wills and this too is an indicator of the problem that the scribe had with Welsh names.
Ty'n y rhos remains a mystery. "House in the Marsh" could give an indication of its location and it may be remote from the farmhouse depending on the acreage. Tyddyn Bryn Isa had 750 acres making its boundaries a long way from the house.
Just spent another hour searching maps. (Llanfihangel Llethyr Troed is the original name for Lledrod). I'm beginning to see groups of farmers on the map ... they all appear to be laughing at me!
Regards. Peter
Just had a look at the 1701 Will of Thomas Davies. My new PC must have a better graphics card because, once again, the image is nice and clear.
It shows 'Esgerygos' ... all one word and it doesn't need much to read it as Estrygos as there is something from the line above that imposes just above the letter 'g'.
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Do you know what the last word is on line 7 of Rev. Edward Richards' will?
Regards
Roger
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It's Derigaron, one of his farms in Caron. He also leaves, (to another son), the adjoining farm of Ochrderigaron.
Regards, Peter
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I speculated previously on a connection with the Davies family of Glyn(ne).I'm more convinced now,though i havre yet to discover,again,whether it is famiial or not.
The will of Peter Davies of Glynne Ucha,1845,amongst extensive property references,gives"...his daughter Anne Wiliams of Derigaron..",and I think also "...my daughter Eliza Williams of Waunfawr..)
If correct on the second name that is two properties from the will of Rev Edward Richards.
This Peter Davies is described as "gent" on the (non conformist) baptism record of his son Peter in 1822 and,coincidence(?),I think I have found a record for a John Lewis,born 1815 to John Lewis("gent") ad wife Elizabeth of Glynne Isa.
Another coincidnce(?) is that not far from Glyn(ne) Ucha is another Bwlch y Ddwallt.If you remember the will of Thomas Richard of Caron (1808) had a debt to a Peter Davies,and there are indent references to Thomas Richard of Bwlch y Ddwyallt.
Regards
Roger
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I'm ploughing through your last post. Did you notice that in the Will of Edward he states that Derigaron, (now Derri-Garon), is in the occupation of Jenkin Williams. There are no records of the sons of Edward that actually lived in any of the 5 properties. George lived in a cottage near one of them and I see that Thomas Alexander, the Surgeon, was in Tregaron for the 1861census but he may have been visiting or on business. (He was living relatively close at St. Arvans, Monmouthshire at the time).
Do you think that there is a link between your John Lewis (1815) and Jane's husband, John Lewis,(1814). He was born in Llangoedmor and I'm wondering whether your Glyn(ne) is in that area.
This peter Davies died in 1845. All of Edward's farms were still in his family's possession at this date but Peter may have held the tenancies of the two in question with the Williams family as under-tenants. Perhaps Elizabeth is simply from Waunfawr, Lower Caron. (An administration area for the Tregaron Board of Guardians).
I see yet another farm owned by the Richards family in Lledrod. Elizabeth, the widow of David of Ffos is shown at Rhyd Llwyd in 1862. It lies a short distance West of Ynysberfedd.
regards. Peter
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Glyn Ucha and Glyn Isa are just outside Llangeitho,with Ucha being near Caerllugest,the abode of John Davies who has the interest in "Scrygos" in the 1760 freeholders list.I was just going to look at the options for John Lewis.I had seen the Jenkin Williams 1841 census.I think he also appears in The Wales Dictionary of National Biography.
Regards
Roger
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I'm not quite sure which couple you mean by Jane and her husband John Lewis(1814).Do you have a census or other reference?
Regards
Roger
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Sorry, I'm referring to Jane, the daughter (1795) of Jane (was Richards, (1757), and Owen Davies (1733).
Jane, their daughter, (1795) was married to John Lewis, (1814), born Llangoedmor. They had 5 children. Beware that one of the 5 children, (another John Lewis (1834), married another Jane, (was Richards), (1834).
The 1871 census shows Joseph Davies at Ynysberfedd, (unmarried), together with Jane (1795) and husband John Lewis, (1814), plus the 5 children and 2 servants.
The Dob of John (1814) was taken from this census and may have been 1815.
Regards, Peter.
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The 1871 census has a couple Jame and John 1833 and 1834,and certainly no Jane 1795.
Regards
Roger
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Probably a brainstorm due to 3 Janes !
I've just read the 1808 will of Thomas Richards. I see that the Jenkin Davies held the mortgage and Petter Davies was a Bond-holder. If you add all the cash bequests to his 2 sons and 4 daughters, plus the order to repay the mortgage and Bond, this Thomas Richards was very well off. £50 in 1808 was the equivalent of over £60,000 in an earnings related comparison.
I can't find the 1845 Will of Petter Davies.
Regards, Peter
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The will is in the name of Peter Davies(referred to as Petter in the 1808 will)
I've only just noticed,but the MI references I gave for a number of the John and Jane Lewis combinations are given as of Cwmmeurig.This is adjacent to Llwyn Goffre,possiibly Clawdd Kerrig, and the Ty'n Rhos as I mentioned in that context before(and maybe Pant y Ffynon and Blaen yr Esgair)
I will try to build a grouping based on indents,wills and properties around these.It may well be this evening as I am going out shortly.
Regards
Roger
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I forgot that LGC only gives Wills up to 1838.
My Wife has gone shopping with my bank-card. I may never see her again!
regards, Peter
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I have begun to piece together some relationships,which,even if not directly relevant,may be useful for elimination.
I have started with David Richard of Clawdd Kerrig(1722 will),for no other good reason than it refers to three properties that seem reasonably adjacent,one of which has a name without similarity in the area.
The will specifies Clawdd Kerrig(I think now called Cloddau),Llwyn(y)Gof(f))re,and Pant y Ffynnon.
The first two properties are left to his father Richard Thomas and his wife Magdalen Jenkin,but by some settlement on David's marriage,after their demise they return to his cousin Thomas David.
The third property,Pant y Ffynnon is left to his brother Edward,who therefore turns out to be the Edward Richard of 1753 Ystrad Meurig will in which the property is mentioned,as well as "..my father
Richard Thomas.." who reputedly begets a sister Margaret for Edward.She is the Margaret Richard of the 1782 will and I can trace this line further forward if necessary(it includes a reference to a "Jenkin Llwyngoffre",perhaps a relative of Magdalen Jenkin?)i
There may be intervening data to discover on the other two properties,but a half moiety appears in 1756 and 1761 indents(which also includes a property called Tyddyn y Prygnant,which I believe was an "outpost" for the school at Ystrad Meurig).
To cut a long story short two of the parties involved a Mary and Margaret Davies are described in the later indent as "co-heiresses of David Thomas"(note change from patronymic).I suspect that they are therefore sisters of the "cousin Thomas David" from the original start will of 1722.This would make the father of that David Richard to be Richard Thomas,brother to David Thomas.I haven't tried to find this Richard Thomas yet.
There is also a William Davies named,who could be a further relative,but I haven't tried to find out yet,and I'm not convinced he's the same William Davies as in later indents yet either.
Regards
Roger
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I was going back over the Lewis/nephew question and whether along the right lines or not,I came across a name I recognised.In pursuing this line some "interesting" records appear.
The name was Charles Pryse,seen at least as far back as 1694 indents with David Richard/Goley.
There are at least a couple of abodes associated with lines of this family- Rhandir and Pant y Barwn(the latter at SY23 4SR,between Lledrod and Llangwyryfon).
There are four wills at least which span the period of interest)(watch out for minor spelling variation)
Charles Pryse 1755(unknown if the same as 1694 indent or relative)
Thomas Pryse 1781(son of above and father of next Charles Pryse)
Rev. Daniel Lewis 1837
Margaret Davies 1843(mother of Jane,wife of Rev. Daniel Lewis)
The "interesting" records around this scene are as follows,three marriage bonds at NLW
1772 Charles Pryse,gent,Llangwyryfon to Dorothy Hughes,spinster,Llanilar
1774 David Richards,gent,St. Brides,alias St B,London to Dorothy Hughes,widow,Llanilar
(the St.Brides location may indicate a "clandestine" marriage)
1788 Charles Pryse,gent,Llangwyryfon to Jane Richards,Llangwyryfon
Bundle(marked 1693-1800) of deeds at NLW from Roberts and Evans (solicitors),relating to Pantybarwn,in which a Charles Pryse commits to convey the equity of redemption of the whole of his estate to the Rev. Thomas Davies(of Pantyfedwen,as in 1801 will,see later)
Further bundle,marked 1842-1865,in which several "familiar" Davies from the indents,attend to various financal mattters of the Rev. Thomas Davies estate,as he appears at some stage to have been declared lunatic.
Regards
Roger
Margaret Lewis 1843(hopefully explained later)
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Hi Roger.
I've been without Internet access for the last couple of days so need a little time, with fingers crossed, to catch up on your research. I must say that it all looks very complicated and, hopefully, you can carry it forward as it's well beyond my very limited resources, search and cerebral !
Record low temperatures further north of minus 41.3 C ... Here, a balmy minus 15C.
Regards, Peter,
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I think I will concentrate on the two strands of Joseph Davies relationships as they seem most likely to yield anything of direct relevance.I'm not yet convinced about one of your central tenets that Joseph(and later a Jane) are children of Owen.I'm not saying you are wrong,but,unless I've missed something,it seems as if the relationships are inferred rather than having data to support them(unless you can provide any).
Regards
Roger
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I have done some more work on the families at Ynysberfedd and this is what I have at the moment. I will try to get more on the Joseph (1833) and Jane (Richards), which you refer to.
1. Jane born Lledrod (1757-1822)
She was married to Owen Davies. (1733-1812).
They had 2 known children.
*Joseph Davies. (1794-1872). Unmarried.
Jane Davies. (1795-)
She Married John Lewis (1814- ) of Llangoedmor.
They had 5 children.
1. Joseph (1833- ) He married Jane Richards, at Tregaron in 1858.
2. John (B Llanrhystyd 1834- )He married Jane Jones, (1834-1907)
Burial at Ystradmeurig 1907.
John and Jane had 6 Children.
Joseph. (1863- )
John (1865- )
Lewis (1868- )
Thomas (1869- )
Mary J. (1870- )
James (1871- )
3. Lewis (1837- )
4. Thomas Oliver. (1839- )
5. Mary Jane. (1840- )
In the 1851 census Joseph is at Ynysberfedd, (72 acres), together with 3 servants.
*In the 1861 he is at Ynysberfedd, (141 acres), together with a nephew, John Jones,
(1842), and 3 servants.
In the 1871 census Joseph is still at Ynysberfedd (141 acres), but now has his brother-in- law,
John Lewis, (1834), plus wife Jane, 5 children and 2 servants.
In the 1881 census Jane and John Lewis (1834) are shown at Ynysberfedd with their 6
children. Ynysberfedd is now shown as 280 acres.
* The John Jones, Nephew, shown above, is believed to be her brother. Jane and John Jones' parents were John and Aurelia (Amelia) (Averina Jones), of Swydd Smithy. John is shown with his mother in the 1871 census and is later shown becoming "Vicar of Ysbyty Ystwyth cum Ystrad Meurig and the Master of Ystrad Meurig Grammar School"
You can see the 'familial' names being carried forwards to the next generations and we're also approaching the date of my father's birth in 1898. Time flies!
regards, Peter.
Ps Just found Ynys Berfed 1841 census. It shows Joseph, 1794 and a Jane Evans of circa the same age, plus servants.
Finding documentation for a marriage that took place between Jane and Owen Davies in C1795 and any Baptism records for that time for their 2 children are almost impossible. The marriage, although implied, results in the definite birth of children Joseph and Jane. Descendants of Jane are researched and documented as above; Joseph was unmarried but is the 'anchor' for the main family at Bryn Perfedd.
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It was actually Joseph and Jane,1794 and 1795 I was referring to,but no matter.I'm not comfortable with three things about your model.
If John Jones,son of Aurelia/Amelia is a true nephew in the current sense,then Aurelia and Joseph are brother and sister,and Aurelia is another child of Owen and Jane.
Owen and Jane would be approx 60 and 40 respectively at the time of Joseph's birth-not impossible,but then Owen being 70 and Jane giving birth at approx 50,and a ten year "gap" from the others,when Aurelia is born.When you combine it with the daughter Jane(circa 1795),marrying John Lewis(circa 1814) a neearly 40 year old woman marrying a teenager,I think the model may need looking at again.Perhaps there is an intermediate generation after Owen/Jane and he is their grandson for instance.
Regards
Roger
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John Lewis,(1834), Married to Jane Jones(1834). If John Jones, (1843), is Jane's brother then there is no simple way to express his relationship to Jane's father-in-law in a census entry. Literally John Jones should be "Daughter in law's brother" on the census, or even "son's wife's brother".
The word "Nephew", although still in error, is the best that Joseph could come up with implying, (wrongly in my opinion), that he is in fact the son of a sister named Aurelia.
[Owen and Jane would be approx. 60 and 40 respectively at the time of Joseph's birth-not impossible, but then Owen being 70 and Jane giving birth at approx. 50,and a ten year "gap" from the others, when Aurelia is born.]
Owen was 61 when Joseph was born, (1794). Jane was only 37.
Jane, (1795), was 38 when she had her first child, Joseph, (1833). John Lewis was 18.
(Annie Richards (1843) of Anglesey married Hugh Davies-Griffith, High Sheriff of Caernarfon. He was born in 1798 and was 45 years older than she was).
I think that my entry for this family is as good as we can make it. Common sense combined with lack of hard and fast evidence.
Regards, Peter.
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Again,I'm struggling to find what your data implies i.e. a couple John(1814) and Jane(1795) Lewis,with a son Joseph(1833),or have I mis-interpreted?
Regards
Roger
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Post 338 above shows them. Jane Davies, 1795 is shown on line 5.
regards. Peter
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I've done a bit more work on the Davies/Lewis family branch.
The entry for Joseph Lewis (1833) marrying a Jane Richards has been corrected to him Marrying an Elizabeth (1836) in 1857/8. Joseph was a miner and they had 5 children.
The family of John, (1834) married to Jane (was Jones) with 6 children, was based in Llanrhystyd. Some of the family are still there for the 1911 Census.
regards, Peter
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I've noticed today that the address for the Lewis's in the MIs is Cwmmeurig,which I have now found reasonably adjacent to Llwyn Gofre,so perhaps they are connected to the families from there.The property can be seen in the Ffair Rhos square of the NLS maps.
Regards
Roger
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Yes ... I checked that the other day. On the old maps the only way to get to Cwmmeurig, (the farm), is past Ty'n y Rhose. Additional info is that both parents are shown as being buried in Ystradmeurig.
Regards, Peter
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New Info. The 1901 census shows John and Jane, (both 1834) plus their 2 youngest children, Mary (1870) and James, (1871), living in Gwnnws. John is described as "Farmer" but there is no farm named. Also shown are 2 boarders, probably from the school at Ystradmeurig.
Just found the 1911 entry for John showing him at Llanrhystyd. With Jane dying in 1907, he may have moved back to his original stamping ground. There are no others shown in this record from familysearch.org.
Regards, Peter
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One of these days,a "coincidence" I come up with will turn out to be useful.In the hope of that,here I go again:
In thinking of a Richards/Davies relationship that might help explain the relationship of Joseph Davies to Edward Richards,I was put in mind of the Thomas Davies,clerk,who is brother in law to Morgan Richards(1749 will).Morgan was clerk at Llanddewi Ystradenni,Radnor and if I'm right,the Thomas Davies of Pantyfedwen(1801 will) was clerk at Llanbadarnfawr,Radnor,which is equivalent to Penybont/Crossgates not very far away.It might be hard to accept that these are the same Thomas Davies,but not totally impossible(perhaps his lunacy was old age dementia?),or maybe there is a father and son,both Thomas,both clerks(The "1801" Thomas has a son Thomas as well as a William)
Looking at the census data for Aureiia/Amelia,her place of birth is given as Llanyre,Radnorshire.
Joseph must be her brother,and there are two baptisms 1796 and 1798 in the area,the latter in Llanyre to a William and Anne.
Thomas Davies(1801 will) had a son,William,and a daughter Jane,one of the properties he left to Jane was Pant y Barwn.
I can't quite figure out if it presents a realistic option(pre existing relationship,overlapping timescales etc?).My brain is beginning to hurt again......
Regards
Roger
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The 1701 Will of Thomas Davies of Lledrod, the tenant of Strygosfawr, shows a definite link between the Davies and Richard families. William Davies, the father of William and Richard Davies, (who were all involved with Penbryn at one time), could have been a close relative of Thomas. The birth of William (Snr.) would have been early enough, C1715, to pre-date your new hypothesis. Elizabeth is shown as a widow in 1764, the same year as Thomas Richards passes Penbryn to Elizabeth and the "Fine", dated 1777 but refers back to 1762, passes Penbryn to William Davies (Jnr.)
Looking again at the 1701 Will of Thomas Richards we see that nobody with the surname "Davies" is bequeathed anything. Of interest regarding your hypothesis is the mention of property in Blaenpennal which is close to Llandewi Brevi. Memory tells me of a Rev. Davies being the guardian of the two sons of the Rev. Morgan Richards. One of the sons, Thomas Richards, married the daughter of the Rev. Rice, Vicar of Lledrod and organiser of the dances at Ty'n y Dawns. That line turned out to be a red-herring but it was a close-run thing.
regards, Peter
PS Just noticed that Thomas Davies' Will shows a John David in the occupancy of Tythin y Ffos Helig, Lledrod.
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While looking for something else I came across a reference to a Reverend Richards of Sgrygog,so I just had to see were it went.It is a reference from an 1810 publication seen in the Genuki series for Llanddeiniol.The basics are that the Reverend inherited the Carog Estate by marrying a Miss Morris,with the male line having died out.
His history is summed up here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j8t/
There is a matching 1761 baptism record where he is given as son of David Richards(clerk) and Margaret his wife.(There is also a 1760 record for twins Richard and Mary,but Richard dies in 1761)
The subject of this summary,Rev. Thomas Richards,can be seen in Bridge Street Aberystwyth in the 1841 and 1851 censuses.
If Scrygos from the 1760 freeholders is the same as Sgrygos from the 1810 publication this might make him grandson of the Thomas Richards quoted in the freeholders.
Regards
Roger
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There is a will for the Reverend David Richards,Hussington(sic),1777,though not at NLW as far as I can see.
He leaves all his real estate in LLanrhystud and Llangwyryddon,in the possession of Stephen Morris(?) to his son Thomas.He does not specify the properties.He also references his daughter Mary,but no other children as far as I can see.
Regards
Roger
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The Thomas Richards of the Freeholders of 1760 already has a son named David. He was David the father of John, Edward, James and Jane. This looks all wrong to me. I can't see Sgrygos mentioned in the document and it states that the Rev. Thomas Richards was born at Hyssington,
Montgomery.
It could well be that he is the Grandson of one of the other sons of Richard David. We know of David of Ffos and Thomas Richards, free-holder but he had another 3 sons; William, Lewis and Edward. Any one of these three could have had a son named David and note that Rev. Thomas' DoB
synchronises with the birth of David's children.
We have the two cases of Rev. Edward and the Rev. John leaving the area when ordained. (John to Anglesey and Edward to Epsom). If the same thing happened to the Rev. David Richards, moving to Hyssington, marrying and having a family there then we may be in business for an additional two Reverends to add to the family. and that will make four that have married well-off ladies!
I see the hand of Edward Richard, Schoolmaster in all this. The School was set up specifically to educate and train scholars for the Clergy and it was said that he was kin of my family.
I'll have a look at the Census details in the morning
regards, Peter.
PS Just received your last post. Excitement here but beware of a flock of Richards in Llangwyryfon, including Leticia, the Widow of David of Ffos and a host of others..
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Sorry,typo,reference was Scrygog
http://www.genuki.org.uk/files/wal/CGN/Llanddeiniol/
and here
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j8x/
Regards
Roger
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Congrats. I think that you have probably hit the Bulls eye this time!
regards. Peter
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Let's hope so-resume tomorrow.
Regards
Roger
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This looks like the "Esger y Gronshias" of the 1756 David Richards will,with the "Morrice" family?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j8y/
Regards
Roger
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This must be relevant for the derivation,currently Lluest y Conscience(with another Blaen yr Esgair and another Pant y Ffynnon close by-all close to Mabws,Llanrhystyd
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j91/
Regards
Roger
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Just started to gather info. This link gives all the info for the Rev. Thomas Richards, son of David.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=1852851643
( page346.)
Thomas' father, Rev. David Richards, died at Ratlinghope, Hereford in 1779.
Thomas attended Magdalene College, Oxford circa 1780. (Ordained 1784, Batchelor Law,1786.
Regards, Peter
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Strange-I found a record for him dying in Hyssington in 1777,as per the will I quoted in #364!
Regards
Roger
r
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At least one of the other properties owned was Nantcwtta in Llangwyryfon/Llanddeiniol.It is listed against David Richards clk.,living in Shropshire in the 1760 freeholders(Hyssington is sometimes given as Shropshire,sometimes as Montgomeryshire)
.Further evidence is here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j95/
Regards
Roger
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Sorry for the delay- who gets visitors on a Wednesday?
The Rev David of Ratlinghope was an error.
Interesting that Nantcwtta in Llangwyryfon is shown in your linked document as being part of the Carrog Estate. I also see that the Solicitor involved in the transaction was also a Richards. Does it mention the occupant of Nantcwtta in the Freeholders?
regards, Peter
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Yes,it's Stephen Morrice.
Regards
Roger
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I'm trying to work out who Stephen Morrice was. I would hazard a guess that the Rev. David's wife was a Morrice and that Stephen was her brother. Mary Morrice is shown in the account (1800's) of Rev. Thomas as his niece. She helped Thomas' wife, Frances, in her teaching role.
Regards Peter.
PS Forgot just how small an area we're dealing with regarding Nantcwtta.
If we could find out when David was at Oxford then, hopefully, we could find out his father's name.
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There is a Stephen Morrice,grandson to David Richards(1756 will) son to his eldest daughter Elizabeth and a James Morice.
Just to make things easy(!),the Mary Morice (born circa 1790),niece to Thomas Richards,looks to be the daughter of Thomas' sister Mary,who I think must be the subject of this marriage to - a James Morice(!).The Morices/Morrices feature heavily in the 1760 freeholders,no doubt all part of the Car(r)og estate.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j99/
David Richards,clerk,appears at Hyssington 1757/1758 according to the CCeD database,but I can't find any birth/baptismal or educational data so far.
Regards
Roger
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Stephen Morris(sic) is also mentioned in the 1777 will of Reverend David Richards Hyssington when he leaves all his various properties "......now in the possession of Stephen Morris....." to his son Thomas.
Regards
Roger
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I haven't been able to trace the Rev. David at Oxford but we don't yet know whether he attended there or when.
In the 1850's there is yet another Reverend to make our lives a misery. Rev. Thomas Richards Morice. It looks as though, at that date, the Morice family is trying to consolidate their numerous holdings with mortgages flying around and properties being swapped. Are we taking this Morice family as being not the original Morice family of Carrog but the "new" usurpers that came in by marriage?
The visitors strangled my analytical Powers.
Regards, Peter.
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It looks to me that the Reverend Thomas Richards Morice,born 1829, is a fellow and don of Jesus College Oxford,given as 3rd son of James Morice of Llanbadarn Fawr.This James Morice in turn born circa 1790,is the son of James Morice who married Mary Richards(sister of Thomas) in 1789.I also think the latter is the James Morice of Carrog whose will of 1839 is at NLW.I haven't read it through,but I can see at least one name from other wills in this family - Penygraig.
Regards
Roger
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NLW doesn't have the 1777 will of the Rev. David Richards, or anything else that relates to him. It's the usual problem with anyone born at his Circa date of 1730. (This is the circa date that I attributed to the Rev John's father, David). The Rev. John and the Rev. David were born in the same Year, +/- 2 years.
As usual, I wonder whether the Rev. David of Hyssington had anything to do with the fortunes of his siblings. Suspects in the transformation of this yeoman family, (in 1727), who seem to have done remarkably well in such a short time have always been Lloyd of Ffosybleiddiaid and Edward Richard, schoolmaster. Now perhaps there is another influence in the form of the wealthy Rev. David and his son, the Rev.Thomas. (He is described as a philanthropist).
regards, Peter.
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There is a 1795 will for Stephen Morice,gent,Nant y Cutta(sic)-but it can't be viewed online.It is marked "Request"
Regards
Roger
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My first thought this morning, although a bit off the present research, concerns the 5 sons of Richard David of Strygos. (Will 1727)
We know that 2 of his sons, David and Thomas, had sons named David and here we are again, looking for David, (the son of one of the remaining 3 sons). It wouldn't surprise me if all of the 5 had sons named David. Three out of five is statistically relevant and, later, in our search for the father of the Rev. David of Hyssington, we will have to have definite proof of which of the three was his father.
Another noticeable point is that the known sons of Richard David named their sons after themselves or their brothers. The Rev. David (Hyssington) named his son after his brother Thomas. Thomas named his son after his brother David, David named his son David after himself.
The only brother name that we see in the next generation is Edward. None of the children are named William or Lewis. This fact, coupled with a total lack of information about those two, suggests to me that we could be looking at Edward as being the missing father for Rev. David.
Speculation of course but it may help later on.
regards, Peter
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I'm having ttrouble also finding records for the Reverend Thomas Richards.I can't find him at Shrewsbury School,thogh there is a "no details" record for a David Richard(s) in 1738 and 1741.
I can't find him in Magdalen College,and I can't find a marriage record.
It seems likely that a fair amount of property may have come into the family of David Richards(1756 will),by the association with the Mor(r)ices of Carrog.Perhaps it goes back much further than we realise.Certainly David's eldest daughter Elizabeth had married a James Morrice and the 1756 will is full of Morrice grandchildren.
In a random trawl of "earlier" Mor(r)ice wills I looked just now at Richard Morice(clerk) 1747,Llanrhystud.At a quick glance it seems to have some interesting property names e.g Lluest y Gron Shans(?).
Ihave to go out shortly to accompany my father to hospital and won't be back until this evening.
Regards
Roger
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I've managed to confirm that the Rev. Thomas Richards was the Master of the Farmor School at Fairford, Gloucestershire at a salary of £30 per year. This salary puts into perspective the £12,000 marriage settlement that the Rev. Edward Richards of Epsom received 15 years earlier.
I've confirmed the death date of Thomas as being 1852 and that of his wife, Frances, as being 1823 although her age at death puts her Dob as 1767, not 1764.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/glos/vol7/pp69-86#h3-0011
(Education, Para. 3)
[In 1817, when the curate Thomas Richards was master, the school, which had been enlarged by John Raymond-Barker, became a National school for the children of the town and neighbourhood.]
Regards, Peter
PS I've managed to confirm the Rev. David Richards at Ratlinghope for the period 1767/70.
http://www.melocki.org.uk/salop/Ratlinghope.html
iv. Ratlinghope Registers. Clergy List.
1769. David Richards, signs in 1767-70 as " Minister," and afterwards as " Curate."
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Not that it helps,but the Richard Morice will of 1747 lists Nant y Cutta(less sure now about Lluest y Gronshans),so Richard and Stephen are related.It's hard to say whether any meaningful property or land came into the Richards line at this time via Elizabeth
Regards
Roger
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I've found Thomas Richards at University.It was Magdalene College Cambridge not Oxford.The record confirms the details we know but adds no others.There is no David Richards record at Magdalene,or any other prior Richards.I'll see if I can find David at any other Cambridge College.
Regards
Roger
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Good work Did you see the PS on my last post?
I've been thinking about the Rev David and the lack of info on him. Like the Rev. John Richards, Llanerchymedd, he may not have attended college but was educated enough to become a priest. The Rev. John wasn't noticed as being anyone of interest. I only saw one mention of him in print when he admitted to believing in fairies and was suspected of stealing the author's walking stick.
Regards, Peter.
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Yes,I saw the PS but haven't made anything of it yet.I'll have a quick look to see if I can find anything new on the Rev John of Llanerchymedd.
Regards
Roger
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Checking my notes on the Rev. David I see that he was at Hyssington from 1757 to the date of his death in 1777. (Thomas was only 15 when his father died and his sister even younger). His date of death corresponds to the circa death of David, the father of John, James et al. Both Davids, we think, are 1st cousins. They have corresponding birth dates for their children, 1757-1763.
I still haven't found any more about the Rev. David although your mention of a David Richards being at Shrewsbury in 1738 and 1741 could be a clue as to where he was "Educated enough to be a Priest".
It's less than 20 miles from Hyssington.
Burnt out and cheesed at such small results from so much effort.
Regards, Peter
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Somewhat similar here.I've been looking at "alternatives".
I started out realising that Gwen,the mother of Edward Richards(1777) was originally Gwen Edward,and tried to find relationships through Richard Edward(1721) and David Richard(1767) of Ty Gwyn,Caron,but didn't get anywhere.
Next I got round to htinking about the Anglesey connection.I wondered again if it was possible tnat there lay the origins,with two brothers staying and one leaving(though having a property interest)
I started by looking at the origins of what I thought might be an easy name to trace Ynys Fawr or Ynys Ynyd as given earlier in one database,particularly as you wondered how this came into the family.
For a start there are quite a few early variants on the name - Ynys Gnud,Ynys Cnyd,Ynys Knud,Ynys Knut(Viking!?)
THere are at least two wills that seem relevant
John Prichard(1772) and Margaret Jones(1777),the latter possibly being his wife retaining her maiden name(marriage in mid 1750s?).I wouldn't be surprised if this John Prichard was related to the "Llwydiart Esgob" Prichards.
The Margaret Jones will may be an intestate bond but the property goes to a John Rowland,declared to be a "lawfull" son,and some role I can't make out(not witness)more like "sharing" for a Richard Edward(s)! of Llandyfrydog.
John Rowland dies in 1783 and I can't see an appropriate will or other transer/indent,but right by the entry is the signature(?) of Richard Edward,Church Warden.I can't help noticing that there is an "R Edwards Curate" in Llandyfrydog ,certainly in the 1820s.
Coincidences again?
Regards
Roger
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I think I've tracked down the Richard Edward(s),church warden.There is a will for Richard Edwards of
Clovach,Llandyfrydog in 1801,the address matching that near the 1783 entry for John Rowland.It doesn't look like the brothers are patronymically named sons at least,but I still don't see the family connection with the Ynys "Cnyd" property at this stage.
Regards
Roger
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I have a very detailed and complete tree for both the Rev. John and his brother James. James was the son that didn't become a priest but ran a draper's shop from premises in Market St. Llanerchymedd. The shop and living accommodation above was rented to him by the Curate. (John, his brother). it being part of St. Mary's church which was owned by the Chroddyn and Llwydiarth Esgob Estates. St. Mary's was, in fact, a private chapel. John was the curate for 5 other parishes.
Edward Richards of Ynys Ynyd, later, Ynys Fawr (with the acquisition of more land), was the son of James Richards, the draper. Elizabeth, the youngest daughter of James Married Robert Pritchard of Llwydiarth Esgob. James' eldest son John was sent from Anglesey to the Edward Richard school at Ystrad Meurig to be educated. He became a High Ranking Customs officer, retiring early after marrying a very wealthy woman. He is described as, 'Landed Gentry' in the 1861 Census. He was the Bard, "Iocyn Ddu" and a very learned gentleman.
The Rev. Edward of Epsom was involved with James, Draper, and his son Edward at Ynys Fawr. He provided James with a farm at Llandyfrydog, Ty'n y garreg, away from his business premises, and when his debt to Edward was forgiven in his will of 1833 he was able to purchase the freehold of Ynys Fawr. Edward is shown moving from a small farm in Llangefni in 1833.
Nice to be talking about someone that I know everything about rather than looking for someone that I know hardly anything about.
regards, Peter
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So no earlier family connection,just a purchase.
Back to trying to find out more about the Hyssington connection then.
Regards
Roger
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In case you have not seen it before,a snippet from a newspaper regarding Rev. John Richards.Does this imply he was in Llaneechymedd at least as early as 1781,or perhaps simply that he was teaching somewhere from that date?
Regards
Roger
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Quoted from my entry for the Rev. John.
"It is said that he was ordained at the Bishop's Palace at Abergwilli, Carmarthen on the 24th. of August, 1783. He took up residence, (1792), at Llanerchymedd, (perhaps at Ty-Coch, 8 High Street, a property that appears in his will), and presumably lived there until his marriage to Ann Parry in 1796. There are notations that he taught around 30 children at Ysgol Heuarn, Llanerchymedd whilst taking up his Clerical duties at St. Mary's church."
Going back to the Revs. David and Thomas. I notice that there are no entries for the birth of Thomas and his sister at Hyssinton; nor indeed a record of David's marriage at the same place. Thomas is not shown in the 1841-51 censuses either although we know that he was at Bridge St. Aberystwyth at that date'
[ Dean Church tells us that Isaac Williams had been before this date introduced to Keble by an old Welsh clergyman, and Isaac Williams in his Autobiography himself says that this old Welsh clergyman had been a curate under Keble's father at Fairford. This Welsh clergyman was the Rev. Thomas Richards, of Carrog, who lived for many years in a house in Bridge Street, Aberystwyth. The house remains to this day almost as it was in Richards's time.]
I haven't been able to find Wills for these two men, or even registers of their death.
At Hyssinton there are comprehensive registers of Baptisms, marriages and Deaths but the Richards family are conspicuous by their absence. I've had a go at the surrounding areas, simply because, as a Curate, he may have been resident in another Parish´, like the Rev. John in Anglesey.
Another niggle is why was Thomas living in Bridge St. I assume that he still held the Carrog Estate and, presume that there was a main Estate Residence.
Being of a suspicious nature I'm wondering whether the "new" Morrice family have expunged all records of the Richards family, taken over the Estate, pretending that they were of the "original" Morrice lineage.
Now you see how desperate I've become after hours of fruitless searches!
Regards, Peter.
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I've found a reference to 'Carrog Mansion'. [Built for the Rev- Thomas Richards C1838.]
Also an account of the perceived nastiness of the Morice descendants.
[Merionethshire. In April 1860, Miss Mary Morice, the owner of the Carrog estate, near Llanddeiniol, in north Cardiganshire, sent her tenants the following circular: 'I feel myself morally bound to set before you two alternatives, and you are at liberty to choose for yourself, namely to attend our Church service with your family and thus to support its principles, or otherwise (if your conscience will not allow you to comply with my request) you must quit the farm which you now hold of me.]
This ultimatum involved 31 farmers and their families on the Estate.
Regards, Peter.
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Very interesting background.
Thomas is at Bridge Street in both the 1841 and 1851 censuses.
I am currently trying to chase down an "interesting" record.The will of Averinah Davies(1828) of Caron parish has a son Joseph Davies,and,amongst others,a daughter Mary to whom she bequeathes the proceeds of the lease of "Penlan".I haven't found a death record that would tell me how old she was.and of course,there are many Penlans,but I may have found one that's close to some other "interesting" properties-hopefully more later.
Regards
Roger
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It feels like one important loop seems to be closing,even if I'm not entirely sure of the final details/relationship yet.
Looking for Joseph Davies,the nephew of Edward Richards of Epsom
Joseph Davies son of Averinah Davies(1828) will (bequeathes benefits of lease of Penlan)
Averina Davies widow of Daniel Davies,Penlan,Caron(1815) will
Daniel Davies probably the son of Joseph Davies,(1780) will
This Joseph Davies has a smithy.
John Davies,son of Peter Davies,married Margaret Davies,daughter of Joseph Davies,Penlan
The will of Joseph Davies(1780),leaves Esgaer Maen Fawr to his daughter Margaret,but acknowledges debt to Peter Davies.
Esgaer Maen Fawr appears in the 1808 will of Thomas Richards of Caron,gent.
Regards
Roger
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Going daft looking for a will I know I've seen before in which there is a bequest of a property currently called Bryncipill in Llanbadarn Odwyn that will further link some of the records I referred to in the last post and has a direct connection,albeit slightly later,between two locations of interest.
At the moment in the middle is the will of a John Jones of Bryncipill,died 1844,though the will was written in 1840.In it he refers to his "....natural son John Jones curate of Llanerchmedd in Anglesea..."
It turns out he is Curate of Rhodogeidio("Ceidio") and dies in 1843(given 1806-1843).
Further on in the will there is an appointment of a Peter Davies of Glynne Ucha as a guardian-no doubt of the same family as before.
Regards
Roger
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The Rev. John's 3rd daughter, Catherine had a son that was married to the daughter of the Vicar of Llanerchymedd, David Roberts, at that time. Rhodogeidio is next-door to Llanerchymedd.
I'm joining you in going daft with the aid of a bottle of Pinot Noir.
Something came to mind. Who would be the officiating Curate at the burial of the Rev. John's daughter, Mary in 1838? (I have a copy of the original). Hurrah! John Jones, Curate.
regards, Peter.
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Spent time today in getting the information that we've gleaned for the Revs. David and Thomas down on 'paper'. My notes need improving but, in the heat of the moment, my writing is a disgrace.
Things are looking better now that I have some order and it's all beginning to make sense.
I learned that Thomas' wife, Frances Porter, was the daughter of the Rev. Francis Porter, the Vicar of Wroughton, Wilts. and she was Governess of the Hicks-Beach children. The Hicks-Beaches were huge landowners. Her sister, the author Agnes Porter was a Governess to an array of aristocratic families and was well known in those circles. There is a note in her diary of her first meeting with Thomas Richards, in 1792 before the wedding. "A very amiable man ."
Thomas and his wife seem to have been rovers.
1787-1792 He was the Curate at Hatherop, Glos.(Close to the Hicks-Beach household)-
1794 Living at Hadley. Middx.
1787 They are living at Knightsbridge. Middx.
1802 They are living at Swindon.
1804 They are living at Fairford, Glos,
1819 They are living at Aberystwyth.
Putting some colour on the family helps me to get a better feeling ... I'm never satisfied with just a name and a date.
Regards, Peter
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I have no idea whether it is relevant,but I'm currently trying to identify the family of Richard Thomas,will 1763,Tyn Wern,Llanbadarn Fawr.He has a son"... John Richards vicar..."
THere is a Tyn y Wern near Llanrhystud,close to other properties such as these:-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jab/
Regards
Roger
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Lack of census searches is explained by them using the old name for Llanddeiniol. Llanddinol. Still working on Thomas and the connected Morice family. In my search I see later generations of the Morice family dotted about Llangwyryfon etc.
Regards, Peter
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I'm still trying to satisfy myself on the "nephew" aspects of Joseph Davies.I can confirm that the 1861 Lledrod parish marriage was between Jane Jones,age 28,living at Ynys y Berfedd,father-John Jones,Blacksmith. and John Lewis aged 28,carpenter of (possibly) Tynlon-there is one next to Penlan and Bryn Issa,father James Lewis,farmer.This fits with previous thoughts and maybe adds a location.
However,I remain highly sceptical about Joseph being the son of Owen and Jane.The MIs certainly do not indicate any specific relationship.For the quoted relationships to work,I think he has to be the brother of Aurelia/Amelia,wife of John Jones.
I'm still drawn to the family of Joseph Davies,will 1780,who appears to have a smithy,and in particular to his son Daniel,who,if I have the right records,would be 1755-1814(with 1815 Penlan will,though this could be any Penlan).His wife is Averinah of an 1828 will,though even this couple stretch the age issue.There could,of course be a relationship between Owen and Joseph/Daniel.
I realise that none of the above addresses the Richards connection!
Regards
Roger
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Just been looking at some dates for your last post. The 'nephew' has to be Joseph (1794). He is born a year before Jane (was Davies). The John Jones 'nephew' wasn't born until 1842, didn't appear at Ynysberfedd until the 1861 Census and is shown still living with his mother in the 1871 census before going on to become a Vicar and then Master of Ystradmeurig School.
He wasn't know to the Rev. Edward. Joseph, being the closest male relative of his sister (still alive in 1833) , would automatically be included in his will.
The obvious question is, if he is a brother of Averinia why is she shown as his mother in the 1871 census.
Regards, Peter
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Sorry I meant to say A(u)relia(who I thought might be a mis transcription of Averina,or possibly Amelia).In 1871 she is shown as the mother of John Jones(1842) not Joseph Davies.
Regards
Roger
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It's 4-30AM. A new theory about this family has been churning around in my head which seems to lean towards your way of thinking. I'll put the proposition to you later in the day. Back to bed for me!
regards, Peter
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Awake!
The first stage of the new hypotheses is to remove the Davies family of Penbryn and to introduce Jane's husband as being a Davies, but from another family altogether.
The time-frame of the family would show that the parents of Jane, John Edward and James, were living, (in the 1770's), at Bryn Issaf. By the 1790's both parents were deceased and the males had moved to Epsom and Anglesey. Jane is left as the rear-guard but marries the unknown Davies in C1793.
They continue to live at Bryn Issaf, having two children (in 1794 and 1795).
In the early 1800's the Rev. Edward buys 5 properties in Tregaron, probably as an investment, (part of the old Hafod estate). We know that he also bought a small farm in Anglesey for the use of his brother James and also 'loaned' a quantity of money to his brother John. What did he do for his sister Jane?
He purchased Ynysberfedd for the use of her and her family. Jane's husband died in 1812 and Jane herself died in 1822 leaving her son, Joseph to carry on running the farm. (Joseph's sister, Jane, had married in 1814). Joseph never married and remained at Ynysberfedd until his death in 1872.
When the. Rev. Edward Richards died in Epsom in 1833 he bequeathed all of his property, in Cardiganshire and Anglesey. to his sons.
What happened to Bryn Issaf? When Jane died in 1822 she left the freehold to her brother, the Rev, John and the farm is rented out. When John dies in 1832 he leaves the freehold to his son John who then sells ít and deposits the money with his brother, Michael of Parciau.
The task is to find out what the link is between Joseph and the 'nephew', John Jones, (1842). As you suggest, the link may be through the unknown Davies that was married to Jane.
Regards, Peter.
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I have found an Averina Jones in the 1851 census living at Lledrod (Born in 1844). There are no parents shown but a brother that is shown, Lewis Jones, is shown as 51 years old and may, in fact, be the father. Of greater interest is a servant, William Davies, born Lledrod, aged 18.
The 1841 census for Tregaron shows an Averina Jones, (1796), aged 75, A son John Jones (1841) and daughter, Averina, (1844). A Baptism at Swyddfynnon of a John Jones (1833) with father, John Jones and a mother Aurelia Davies. This latter looks interesting.
regards, Peter
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Going out shortly,but the latter is the family of John Jones,blacksmith.I think his first son John dies within a year or two,and he has a second son John circa 1842 who goes on to be the headmaster etc.
If I remember correctly the baptisms are non-con and registered in two different places reflecting the
abodes/origins(?) of the parents,in this case Llangeitho for "Aurelia/Amelia/Averina"
Regards
Roger
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Isn't it most likely that the connection between a Davies family and a Richards family will be based on the 1760 freeholders,wherein,John Davies of Llangeitho(living at Caerllyges i.e. Caerllugest) and Thomas Richards of Lledrod both are said to have an interest in "Scrygos"(assuming there is only one such).
Regards
Roger
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I don't know why I didn't think of it before,but I've found John Jones the blacksmith and his wife,plus their first John,who died aged17 months,in the Lledrod MIs.His wife is given as Aurelia.
There are no other useful details and the graves on either side are not obviously related.
Regards
Roger
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I think that the two people with an interest in Scrygos (sic) are Thomas Richards , under-tenant and John Davies as the full tenant. I still haven't been able to find an Owen Davies that I can link to anyone that we know. He may have come from some other part of Wales without a connection to Lledrod or Cardiganshire, hence the lack of progress.
Regards, Peter
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I think it is well worth looking at the will of David Davies,Blacksmith,Caron,1806.I think he is a son of Joseph Davies(1780 will).There are a number of familiar names there,including a Joseph Davies who may be the son of Daniel.However,there may be another Joseph in the greater family as it is unlikely that a Joseph,born circa 1794,would be an executor in 1806.There is also a David Richard of Garn Lwyd,though I don't think it is clear,whether,or how,he is related.
Regards
Roger
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There is an earlier will for Garn Lwyd - a Thomas David will of 1748 (though written in 1738) in which he leaves the majority of his estate to his brother Richard David.
Regards
Roger
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I'm looking at the details of Owen Davies and trying to remember where I found those details. I can't find anything about him at the present except that there was such a person with those dates of birth and death, (1733-1812) and that is available in the Tregaron data on Family Search.
It may well have been that I've plucked him out as being a faint possibility as a husband for Jane and then cemented him into my tree as a certainty.
We know that children are generally named after parents or grandparents; a look at the children of Jane = Joseph and Jane, and Jane's children = Joseph, John, Lewis, Thomas Oliver and Mary Jane, there isn't an Owen to be seen, (this is also seen in the next generation of eleven known children).
It could well be that any of your Davies subjects with the name, 'Joseph',could be the correct husband for Jane.
Regards, Peter.
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Owen comes from the MIs of Lledrod with wife Jane.I think you have inferred that her maiden name was Richards in order to make the "nephew" relationship fit,because the grave is next to that of Joseph,who is buried alone.There is no indication on his MI that he is related and he is given as of Ynys,as are one of the Lewis group.You might well be right in your inference or assumption,but,equally there could be other explanations(intermediate generation for example)
I hae also now found that there must have been a marriage between a Jane Richards of Garn Lwyd and James Davies of Hendre Philip.Their granddaughter,Emily Davies,via her father John(born 1795),appears to have been an early pioneer in women's rights campaigning.
I had seen the will you mentioned,and it again demonstrates the difficulty with patronymics.
I still feel certain that positively identifying the parentage of the nephew Joseph Davies is key to confirming the branch of the Richards family that equates with "David of Lledrod",the father of Edward and,therefore John and James.I feel we have him surrounded,but not yet caught.
Regards
Roger
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I've had a look at the 1780 and 1808 wills for the two Josephs of Caron. The Joseph in the 1780 will is below the age of 23 and I've traced the one in the 1808 will to Gwnnws where him and his wife Mary have a child born in 1813.
Once again there is no 'name connection' to an Owen.
One thing that does come to mind again is that Ynysberfedd was owned by Edward Richards up until the day he died in 1833. He forgives the money owed to him by Joseph Davies, his nephew. I can't see any reason why he should forgive any debt to anyone else except Joseph, the son of his sister. He didn't forgive rent or debt to anyone that were tenants of his other farms .... he only forgives the debts owed by his siblings and his nephew.
Back to square one.
Regards, Peter
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While I don't disagree with your analysis,it obviously begs the question- who is his sister?t might not be a Jane at all,and even if so,not the wife of Owen Davies.
I forgot to mention in reading the will of David Davies,blacksmith,1806,he refers to his sister Margaret of Rhyd Lwyd.There must be a clue there.
Regards
Roger
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I've rejected Jane and Owen for the moment, just to clear the decks for some other persons. I've just run a search for anyone called Davies with a son named Joseph ... dozens of them but none are in our area or with a pre-1800 birth-date. I've also looked closely at the William Davies that lived 200 meters from Edward's sister, plus his brother Richard, without success. They would both have been old enough and we have them on record as Richard trying to buy Penbryn from William in 1772.
regards, Peter.
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Another re-think.
So far we have searched high and low for the parents of Joseph Davies of Ynysberfedd without success. The closest shot was Owen and Jane; there is a record of them marrying, and they are buried together in our area. Coupled with the fact that Joseph Davies is buried in the grave next to theirs seems to be too much of a coincidence and, without any alternatives I think that Occam's razor should prevail.
Owen could have been related to the Davies of the 1780 will except that nothing of him appears in that will, him having been born in 1733; he must have been a generation earlier.
Richard David of Strygos had 5 sons and one daughter, Jane. Owen and Jane 's second child was named Jane. The Rev, John of Llanerchymedd has a daughter Jane, so too his brother James. (Their mother was Elizabeth and all have children named after her).
All other leads that we've investigated have little or no merit compared to Owen and Jane. The speculation of Jane and James Davies of Garn Llwyd is a case in Question. They have a son John who was born the same year as Jane, (the second child of Owen and Jane). Their child, Emily Davies was born in Southampton!
Jane, (2nd child) is later seen living with her family and Joseph at Ynysperfedd so all of the Janes mentioned are documented.
Owen and Jane are back in my tree simply because of the 'circumstantial evidence' that surrounds them.
Regards, Peter.
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Where is the record of Owen and Jane marrying please?
Regards
Roger
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I can't remember where I got the record from. I gathered the details of this family a long time ago, certainly before the will of Edward was found but I'm sure that it must be there somewhere. The registration of marriages began in the Lledrod area in 1775 and the registration of births at around the same time. We haven't found a marriage for any alternative couple and no birth records for anyone born in the 1700's either.
regards. Peter
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Two things I am going to try to look at later,both revolving around the family of Joseph Davies(1780 will).He refers to another son Edward,who may be the subject of a will from Llanyre,Radnorshire.He refers to a son Joseph but the timing is awkward for the stated 1794 of the censuses and impossible for "Aurelia",unless his wife remarried,so that she was a sort of half step sister.
Of more interest,we now have two Rhyd Lwyd "records".
Margaret Richards in 1762
Margaret,sister of David Davies(1806 will)(therefore daughter of "1780" Joseph Davies)
Could they be the same person,providing the Davies/Richards link?
Regards
Roger
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Just spotted a snag in my details for (my) Jane. If the age at death on the grave is correct, (my DoB was 1758, (should be 1754), ( I thought at one time that she and the Rev, John were twins), then she would have given birth to Joseph at the age of 40 and Jane at 41, quite late for a first child. If they are not the correct couple, then they wouldn't have been living in such a remote area or be that old.
Keep tracking the link between the folk at Rhyd Llwyd. (Where is it by the way?)
Regards, Peter
Additional thought. We mustn't forget that Joseph Davies is described by Edward as "nephew". This could, of course, indicate another sister of Edward. one that we haven't found yet, married to a Davies!
Dates for the birth of the children are; 1754, 1758, 1759 and 1763.
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I've just "remembered" - the quote:
"John Davies married Margaret,daughter of Joseph Davies of Penlan"
(I think this applied to the 1760 freeholder from Llangeitho with interest in Scrygos.
There seems to be so many connections between these Richards and Davies families,just need to pin down the precise details.
Again,the will of Peter Davies Glynne Ucha (will 1746 ),has his daughter Ann Williams at Derigaron.
I've just found a snippet giving Edward Davies and his wife Ann at Rhydlwyd in 1806.
Regards
Roger
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RHhyd LLwyd is the site of the Calvinist Methodist Chapel at Lledrod which I think was used for a school.I think a Rev.Thomaa Richards(Aberystwyth?) was headmaster there at some point.
Regards
Roger
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Thanks for the info,.
Don't forget that I'm on CET here so I'm an hour in front. You may notice that I go "off line" at about this time. It makes me laugh when people say that 'Sudoku' keeps the mind of old-folk occupied. They need to try finding their forebears from Lledrod in the 1700s !
regards, Peter.
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I'm trying to resolve the apparent anomaly in which the following(left page)appears to give a completely different wife for the Reverend Thomas Richards of Scrygog
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jbi/
Regards
Roger
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The "Jane Austen" reference gives a Mary Morice as the niece of Thomas Richards.Going out again shortly but the connection is through James Morice(1765-1839,will available),Mary Morice(1761-1845,will available) and this
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jbj/
To be continued later.
Regards
Roger
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I have made a preliminary tree for the Rev. David Richards. He married Margaret Morice, C1759.
They had 4 children; Richard and Mary, (1760-twins. Richard died in 1761),
Mary married James Morice, (1765-1839), in 1783. They had a daughter, Mary, (1790- 1866). (She is the "Eviction if you don't go to church" lady.)
Elizabeth, (She married James Morice and had a son, Stephen).
The Rev.Thomas, He married Frances Porter in 1792. Frances was the sister of Edith Porter, the writer of the Jane Austen book that you refer to.
I have the 'Jane Austen' file and the 'History of West Wales' if those were the ones that you sent the links to.
regards, Peter
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I've just re-read the will of David Davies,1806,Blacksmith,Caron, who I believed to be the son of Joseph Davies(1780).It mentions a John Rowland,who I interpret as married to his sister.If I have traced him correctly,I end up with an address of Gilfach y Gwyddil-the same address as that of Joseph David and his twin Jane in 1794,born to parents John and Margaret.I feel sure this is the same family as the Davies of Glyn and Caerllugest.They may even be the couple quoted as "..John Davies,son of Peter Davies married Margaret Davies,daughter of Joseph Davies of Penlan.."
Regards
Roger
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I've just re-read the wills for 1780, 1806 and 1808 for the Davies family. In my way of interpreting all of the information in those wills, and your input, it's so complicated and round-about that you could take any Davies family and 'almost' come to the conclusion that they are the link to the Richards family.
My gut feeling is that it's more simple than it appears. In the 1780 will of Joseph Davies we have a son, Joseph Davies. Reading his bequest we can see that he is 'under the age of 23' and that the will makes provision for his housing, feeding and education until he reaches the age of 23. We don't know how old he is at 1870, below 23 could mean that he is either very young or in his late teens or early 20s. He would certainly be a candidate for the man that marries the Richards girl. (Counting their child we now have a line of Josephs from the 1780 will of Joseph; his son Joseph, and his son Joseph). It isn't a scholarly hypotheses but it's straightforward and yet another 'shot in the dark' to ponder.
I took the details of Jane from the grave of Owen and Jane Davies. We now can say that we don't know her name or date of birth and death. The Joseph Davies of above (under 23) could have been around the same age. (James, the youngest of the three Richards sons was born in 1763 and was married in 1793 - his first chid was born in 1794). The Richards girl has her first child in 1794.
Just food for thought. Regards, Peter
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I've tried to "fix' Joseph Davies by seeing if he has a direct uncle/nephew relationship with John Lewis(as per 1871 census),rather than as "in-law" via his wife Jane,daughter of John Jones,blacksmith and his wife.No luck so far,but I have found the 1831 marriage of John Jones and Amelia Davies in Lledrod.It is on www.freereg.org.uk.
Confirming her first name hasn't helped trace her.
Regards
Roger
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I now see that the first and second children of Jane, (was Davies), (1795), and john Lewis, (1814) have named, as usual, their first-born, 'Joseph'. So we now have 5 in this family from 1780.
There could be a "smith neighbourhood link" as Joseph, (1780 will) was a smith, (and his son David too). The father of Jane and John Jones was also a smith. These parents would be about the same age as Jane and John Lewis.
Regards, Peter
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Can you please provide a census reference for the couple you referred to -Jane(1795) and John Lewis(1814).I couldn't find them last time and I still can't.
Regards
Roger
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https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3AJoseph~%20%2Bsurname%3ADavies~%20%2Bbirth_place%3ALledrod~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1794-1794~%20%2Bresidence_place%3ALledrod~%20%2Bresidence_year%3A1851-1871~%20%2Brecord_country%3AWales&collection_id=1538354
Here is the link to familysearch.org
If you search for Joseph Davies in the 1871 Census it shows Joseph, plus Jane and John Lewis and their family at Ynysberfedd.
Regards, Peter.
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I have seen the 1871 census a number of times and the couple's dates are 1834 and 1833-not 1814 and 1795.
Regards
Roger
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Sorry about that. Wrong Jane and John Lewis.
As before, I must have copied the information from somewhere as I have the additional note that John Lewis, (1814) was born in Llangoedmor. They must be somewhere in the 1841/51 censuses because I have the names and dates for their children, the last of whom, Mary Jane, was born in 1840. I'll look again and send you the link.
regards, Peter
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Mary Jane was a daughter of the correct John and Jane(1834,1833),but she was born circa 1771 and is in the 1881 census at YnysPerfedd.
Regards
Roger
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I seem to have transposed one family, John and Jane Lewis onto the family of their son, John and Jane Lewis. I've just been searching the senior family without results. No damned wonder.
I'm on intermittent household duties today but I'll try to sort it out later, Getting old. Sob-sob.
Regards, Peter
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This error is connected to the 'original sin' of mixing up the two Jane and John Lewis families. I have, in my notes, a complete 'mirror image' of the John and Jane juniors superimposed as the children of John and Jane seniors. I think that it came about when I was searching for Joseph, (1833), in the 1851 census. The result was the link that I sent you for the 1871 census and I took those children, and their dates of birth on the presumption, at that time, that I was looking at the 1851 census.
Now all that I have for Jane and John seniors is that they had a child, Joseph, (1833), who, in turn had 6 children. David, Thomas, Rees, Ann, Elias and James.
Regards, Peter
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I don't think there is a " Jane and John seniors" as such a named couple.If you go back to my posting on the 1861 Tregaron marriage of Jane Jones(father John Jones,blacksmith) and John Lewis,you will see thet John's father is James Lewis,farmer.
Ignoring some "lazy ditto-ing" on the 1871 census,John Lewis gives his birthplace as Llanrhystud and this is consistent with the famly of James Lewis in 1861,just prior to the marriage at
RG09 4193 106 10
In 1841 they are at
HO107 1373 11 31 8
John is not with the family in 1851,when the remainder are at
HO107 2484 119 10
Regards
Roger
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This is all that I have of this family after amendments of today
Richards female, born Lledrod C1756
She was married to a Davies.
They had 2 known children.
*Joseph Davies. (1794-1872). Unmarried.
Jane Davies (1795- )
She Married John Lewis (1814-) of Llangoedmor.
They had 5 children.
1. Joseph (1833- ) Joseph was a miner.
He married Elizabeth (1836- )
They had 5 children
David (1858- )
Thomas (1862- )
Rees (1860-)
Ann (1867- )
Elias (1869- )
2. John (1834)
3. Lewis (1837)
4. Thomas (1839)
5. Mary Jane (1840)
6. James
The senior and junior John and Jane disappeared with the rectification of my mistakes.
Regards, Peter
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I'm sorry,Peter,but I can't agree with your "remainder".I could be wrong but:-
The famly of Joseph Lewis(1833),with wife Elizabeth etc does not track back to a Jane and John that I can see at the moment.In fact I can't find a couple with the ages(1794,1815) anywhere.
Furthermore,the famiiy containing Mary Jane,seen at YnysPerfedd(1871) track back to John(1834) and Jane(1833) as per my previous post,with the "nephew" relationship to Joseph(1794).
To reiterate,Jane is the daughter of John Jones,blacksmith,and John is the son of James Lewis farmer.
Regards
Roger
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I haven't placed the family of John, (1834), in my notes yet but they are ready. They are listed as follows ...Joseph; John, Lewis, Thomas Oliver, and Mary Jane.
I have now deleted the family of Joseph and Elizabeth but left Joseph, (1833) for the future.
Regards, Peter
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They are the married couple in the 1871 census with John Lewis given as nephew.I believe he is a "nephew in law" his wife Jane being the daughter of John Jones,blacksmith and Amelia nee Davies.
This would mean Joseph and Amelia are brother and sister or,possibly(speculative),half sister or step sister.
Regards
Roger
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Do you know the DoB for Amelia nee Davies. I'm wondering whether there's another pointer as to whether she is related to Joseph. Who were her parents? Logic says that they would be the Richards woman and the Davies man who were born C1765.
Note that John Lewis and Jane Jones plus her presumed brother John Jones hadn't been born when Edward Richards refers to Joseph as a 'nephew'.
Jane Jones was born in 1834 and John Jones in 1842. These dates coincide with the birth range of the children of John (1814)and Jane (C1795) Lewis. (Although Amelia must have been younger than Joseph).
Anything that ties these two together would solve the puzzle.
regards, Peter
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Just found our Emilia. She's in the 1841 as Amilia Jones of Swydd Smithy together with 3 children. Amilia's DoB is given as 1803-1807 and her children are, Jane (1832), Elizabeth (1835) and Anne (1837). Her Husband, John Jones has DoB as 1799-1803. Amelia was born in Lledrod.
You can now see that she could well have been Joseph's, (1794), sister.
Regards, Peter
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You keep referring to the children of Jane(1795) and John(1814).I do not recognise this couple at all.If you have any evidence to support their existence please quote it.
Amelia is untraced other than the marriage to John Jones.She seems to reasonably consistently have her place of birth as Llanyre,Radnorshire in the censuses,born circa 1805.In the MIs for Lledrod,John Jones(born 1842,headmaster etc)her son,has a daughter called Amy,presumably after her.There is a record for an Amy Davies born Llandegley(less than 10 miles from Llanyre),in 1805 but she is illegitimate born to a Margaret Davies.
Regards
Roger
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The penny has just dropped. Except for the link between Amilia and Joseph being brother and sister
the remaining Lewis family et al is not related to me at all. The only person that links this family to the Richards family is an unknown Richards and Davies that we have no details for, who had a son, Joseph in 1794. Joseph was a nephew of Edward because his father was married to Edward's sister.
They lived at Ynysberfedd, owned by George Richards, (and later his brother) simply as tenants.
I think that the time and effort spent on this bit of the family didn't amount to much, but there we are. No pain no gain, as they say. Lledrod is particularly poorly served having hardly any birth, marriage and death records for the 1700s so that guesswork and hypotheses has to take its place with dire results. This will be the first time that I will be writing, "Unknown Richards" in my direct-line tree to the Rev. John Richards. Shame on me.
Regards, Peter
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I think it is also possible that we are interpreting "nephew" in the stricter light of current usage,and it may have had broader application at this time.
Regards
Roger
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I think that in 1833, when the Rev. Edward Richards had his will drawn up, "Nephew" meant exactly that ... the male child of a sibling. We know that Edward was very wealthy and highly educated; his will, probably drawn up by a top Lawyer and witnessed by two important businessmen, (one of them a Knight), would be accurate and accurately worded.
Regards, Peter
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I don't suppose there are any clues in the 1847 will of Mary Richards of Epsom,the Reverend Edward's wife?
I've never had the patience to "decipher" it!
Regards
Roger
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Can you send me the link to Mary's will please. I'll have a go at it and probably ruin my eyesight even further.
regards, Peter
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Sorry,I can't send you a link,it's on A******y.
I'll have a go tomorrow.It's in the same hand as Edward's will,but twice as long!
Regards
Roger
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Looking forwards to the Will. (groan, blink blink). Why is it so long I wonder because by 1847 there was one less son, (death) and only one grandchild. (Adelaide May Chatfield, 1841), the daughter of her eldest child, Mary, (1808-1891). I know that Edward's wife was very wealthy in her own right and the giving away of cash and property is quite a complicated matter. (Not speaking from experience) !
Regards, Peter.
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I have looked through the document solely for the purpose of finding Joseph's name,which I have failed to do.That is not to say it is not there,if you remember the handwriting style of Edward's will.
It seems to be largely a repetitive division of a moiety of the original will or settlement with provisions for redivision in the event of anybody's death,and now taking into account the Chatfield connection.The most repetitive phrase is "......thousand pounds...."
Regards
Roger
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A thousand pounds in 1848 would be the present-day equivalent to £748,000 of earnings or £90,000 standard of living value. The average farm labourer earned £46 per year in 1850.
(Information given just to make me more depressed).
Regards, Peter
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I won't tell you how many thousands of pounds then.....
Regards
Roger
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I've managed to get the will through the same source as the Rev. Edward's will. I couldn't open it at first, it being incomplete and in a strange format but, converting it to jpg. I now have a bit of good bedtime reading. With my modern PC it is perfectly clear but still looks as if it's written in Hebrew! I'd love to send the scribe a bit of my mind but, unfortunately, I can't read his name!
Regards, Peter
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A non-illuminated Book of Kells comes to mind!
Regards
Roger
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So that readers may appreciate the problems with reading some Wills, I've attached a small section of Mary's Will.
Regards, Peter.
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I've had a "radical" thought,but don't yet know if it will lead anywhere.We have been looking at variants of Esgair y Gors/Scrygos etc,This has led us to a Rev. David Richards(Hyssington etc) and his son Rev Thomas Richards(Carrog etc) but no known link with "your" Richards(es)
I have a vague recollection of seeing in a will(which one I can't remember) a property called Lluest y Gors(or similar) and,sure enough,there is one such in Lledrod.Perhaps the "t"in Strygos comes from there.
Regards
Roger
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Looking at the Davies will of 1708 you will see that they have written, (badly), 'Esgairygors' ... all one word.
After this will entry, (see also the stroke of the line above it), they have used the word, 'Strygos' and then, in the Freeholders of 1760, it changes again to 'Sgrygos'.
We have seen, in our various searches, the accidental changes of almost all of the names of houses and farms in the area. I have seen six separate spellings for Ffos y Bleiddiaid alone, (now called simply, 'Ffos'). The link that you made between John Davies and Thomas Richards points to the same conclusion that they are referring to Esgair y Gors.
We don't have any positive link for the Rev. David Richards to my family but the same can be said for others in the tribe. How many David Richards were there living at Lledrod in the period 1725 to 1730, a few, but they were all relatives of mine. A Rev. David, with a son named Thomas points to a name and occupation lineage. Lack of docs to support anything in the 1700s seems to be the norm for our searches for individuals so Occam's razor comes into play. As you said on the Anglesey Forum once, "If it's not him, then who is he"?
Regards, Peter.
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All very true,and I think,there's more than one Lluest y gors(quelle surprise!).
I'll see where the thought takes me for a little while,nevertheless.
Regards
Roger
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I've just been looking at some of our old indents. One, from 1638 shows 'Esker-rygos'. (Esgairygors). Another from 1769 shows 'Strygosfawr', otherwise known as 'Strygos' and finally, Meyric from 1810, writing about Thomas Richards of Scrygog. Another point is that Esgair-y-gors means, 'Marsh ridge' whereas none of the other names mean anything in Welsh.
I can't find George Richards, (1815-1854), the son of the Rev. Edward in the 1851 census, He is with his mother for the will in 1847 but dies, (suicide), in Tregaron in 1854.
regards, Peter.
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George Richsrds is at Waunfawr(as per Edward's will),in 1851.He is classed as a separate "lodger" with the family of John Williams at HO107/2487/350/9
Regards
Roger
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Thanks for that. I now remember that he was living, not in Waunfawr itself, but in a cottage next to the house.
Regards, Peter
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I'm busy updating everything from this week. In my essay on the beginnings of the Richards family in Lledrod, and, in particular, the historical ownership of Ynysberfedd, I see that I have the following ...
[On the death of the unknown Davies the 1814 Land Tax register shows Jane as the tenant. Joseph Davies Jnr. was resident there until his death in 1874].
This entry must have come from somewhere. Can you check up on this for me please and, if proved to be correct, will explain why I named the unknown Davies, (was Richards) woman as Jane.
Regards, Peter
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I'll try later,going out now.
Regards
Roger
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I've only managed to find the 1798 Land Tax Assessment so far,and here are some of the interesting points
YnysyBerfedd is listed as owned by a Major West(?),with a Thomas Evans as tenant.
A Thomas Evans is also listed as tenant at Ynysygarn,where the prprietor is the Rev John Williams.
Ysgair y Gorse is owned by James Lloyd Esq. with William Williams as tenant.
Most,interestingly a Joseph Davies is listed as tenant at Rhyd Lwyd,with William Williams(same one as above?)as proprietor.Perhaps this Joseph is the son of Joseph Davies(1780 will).I'll try to gather together a chronological list of names associated with Rhyd Lwyd.
Regards
Roger
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I'm afraid the Rhyd Lwyd references I can find are a mixed bag,possibly because it may have had residential,clerical and educational connections,I think.Even in the 1841 census there is a Rhydlwyd reference(Smithy?) with Mary Davies(75),then Tynllan with Evan Eans(70),then Rhydlwyd Chapel with Rev David Evans(65),Methodist Minister.It is possible that the Jane Evans(40),with Joseph in 1841 is a daughter of Evan Evans(?)
Rhyd Lwyd
(House/School/Chapel?)
1761 Lease to David Williams of Rhydllwyd of….
1764 Letticia Richards of Rhyd Llwyd….pew…
1798/1800 Tenant Joseph Davies(son or grsandson of Joseph Davies 1780 will?)
1806 Will of David Davies(son of Joseph 1780?) refers to
Niece Margaret Richard(?)/David(?)/Edward(?) at Rhydlwyd.
If there was ONE word in this will that needed to be clear
this,of course was the one!
Theophilus Jones(executor) at Rhydlwyd
1806 Edward Davies with wife Ann(e) (another son of Joseph (1780)(?)
who has his own son Joseph! (snippet-lost source)
(but will of Edward Davies,Llanyre 1796 with son Joseph?)
Monumental Inscriptions
John Richards(c.1834-1890) “blaenor parchus”(first minister?)(farmer on census)
Eglwys M C Rhydlwyd (Methodist Chapel)
Mary Richards(wife)(c.1845-1922)
(Your Rev Richards - C of E)
1831 Two infant daughters of Evan and Martha Jones
+ other later Davies/Richard/Jones combinations
1841 census - see preamble
1840/1850 Mr(?) Thomas Richards Schoolmaster(Welsh Journals)
(Reverend Bridge Street Aberystwyth?)
Can't find the 1814 Land Tax references at the moment.
Regards
Roger
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Not much to report about Rhyd Llwyd. The farm is a two bedroomed place that, from the road, looks like a single storey house but from the other side is two storeys. It's now for sale in completely bad interior condition plus 11,1/2 acres.
The Rhyd Llwyd Chapel has a good-sized house partly attached to it, (3 bedrooms) and is also vacant.
I can't imagine Leticia Richards actually living at the farm and it may be that she was either a tenant, with a sub-tenant, or she owned the freehold.
The properties are 100 meters apart.
Chimney cleaning today so a bit busy.
Regards, Peter.
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Just an aside. I managed. mostly by accident, to get into the tithe map and details for our old stamping ground of Lledrod Uchaf. The only mention of a Richards living there then, (1838-1850), is George owning Ynysberfedd and Joseph Davies as tenant. There is another entry for the land between Ynysberfedd and Ynys y Garn, (35 acres), and this is owned jointly by George and a Rev. James Williams. I see that in your 1798 Land tax register that Ynys y Garn was owned by a Rev. John Williams.
I have info somewhere that a Rev. Williams acted as a go-between when the Rev. Edward of Epsom bought the farms from the old Hafod Estate. I may have seen that in the 'Martin' article.
It comes as quite a surprise when you see an area that was once swamped with the Richards and David families taken over by others. Most common name now appears to be Davies!
Regards, Peter.
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I've found another reference to Rhyd Lwyd - a 1761 indent for a 20 yer lease to David Williams of Lledrod,yeoman.
You also quoted a reference to Elizabeth Richards,widow of David of Ffos in 1762,presumably the one later referred to in 1777.
Regards
Roger
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The Letticia that I mentioned from the Pew document showing her as of Rhyd Llwyd is the widow of David of Ffos. The Elizabeth Richards, widow, (Fine doc) is the mother of Edward and john etc.
I keep getting '0' results from LlGC when I search for the will of David Davies, 1806. Perhaps the Margaret Richard in this Will will prove to be a link to our recent enquiries into the sister of Edward and John etc.
The Indent from 1761 shows the Williams moving from Rhyd Llwyd to Llanilar?
Regards, Peter.
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Try this link
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jep/
Viewing link on right.
Regards
Roger
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Wrote 'Lledrod' instead of 'Caron'. Just read the will again.
The cash bequeathed to the various folk named in the will is provided by drawing on the 'note' of David Richard and his wife Ann, (they live at Garn Llwyd), and that of another note from John Davies, Glyn. David has three sisters in this will because there are three nieces with the surname of; Rowlands, Cox and Lloyd. The Margaret Rowlands seems to be the only one associated in the Will with Rhyd Llwyd.
Theophilus Jones is the executor of the Will ... his wife also is bequeathed the remains of the tenancy of the house, 'Penlan'.
Regards, Peter
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I wonder if there is any further clue to "nephew" Joseph in the rather motley crew with him in the 1841 census.
I have looked to see if there is any evidence of an "adult baptism" which might help,but to no avail so far.
Regards
Roger
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I now have the Tithe Records for 1798. The problem that I have with locating out-of-the-ordinary items on the Internet is that I have a Windows 10 computer and a Windows 95 brain!
I see that David and Richard Richards, (sons of David of Ffos), are entered; David at Tynllan and Richard at Tynant Uchaf, Bethania, just a short walk to Tynllan. Before this date he is shown at Ty'n yr Esgair close to the mill at Bronnant and, as he used to own the mill at Lledrod with David, may have continued milling after he and David sold that mill.
What are the names of the servants in the 1841 census for Joseph Davies?
Regards, Peter
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The others with Joseph in the order they are given
Evan Morgans b 1826
Thomas Pugh b 1831
Jane Evans b 1801
John Rowlands b 1821
Regards
Roger
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The start of a vague connection?
The Thomas Pugh(aged 10) with Joseph in 1841 may be the same one as a nephew(aged 22) with
Elinor Evans,circa 1811 at Cwmffrwd in 1851(though admittedly he would have to appear twice in 1841 as he is there with Elinor in 1841,as well as a Margaret Evans b.1767)However,there is a baptismal record for Thomas Pugh,born 1828 to Stephen Pugh and Mary Evans of Cwmffrwd,so this property,and an Evans family is clearly involved.
There is also a Jane Evans(c.1801) with Joseph in 1841and a John Rowlands.
The 1851 census also has an Evans family and a Rowlands family(possibly with the Evans son at the Rowlands),which may help tie in as a family group at properties called Pen y Cnwch and Tan y Cnwch.
These properties are near the Clawdd Cerrig/Llwyn Goffre grouping
The possibly more interesting fact is that Cwmffrwd was the 1753 will address of the "other" Edward Richard of Ystrad Meurig,who left his property including a Pant y Ffynon,to a Margaret Richard,whose status is awkwardly worded.
Maybe your Richards are related to the other Edward Richard(s) of Ystrad Meurig!
Regards
Roger
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I thought that there could be some link from the servants to someone we know but I see that they are all too young. The John Rowlands that's shown could be related to the Margaret Rowlands of Rhyd Llwyd. (Perhaps her son).
A search for John Rowlands in the 1861 census produces one in Gwnnws, aged 42, unmarried. He is shown as a Farmer.
Of interest is that he has 4 servants; Joseph Davies, (1844), Richard Davies, (1845), Mary Richard, (1834) and Jane James, (1846).
Regards, Peter
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I'll try to bridge the gap for Cwmffrwd between the 1753 will and census data.
Regards
Roger
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Just read the 1753 Will. Edward and Margaret appear to be the children of Richard Thomas. Did you notice how easy it is to read ... it was written and witnessed by Edward Richard, Schoolmaster and he is stated to be "the kin of my Grandfather x 3". I'm almost sure that, later, he became the owner of Pantyffynnon.
regards, Peter.
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I came to the same conclusion,which,remarkably,I think makes Edward(1753) and Margaret(1782 will),brother and sister of David Richard of the 1722 will!.
Regards
Roger
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In checking for the correct Pantyffynon,nearest to Llwyngoffre etc i found that "next door" to this was Hafod y gofen,surely.the abode of Joseph Davies the executor in the 1806 David Davies will.
See top right of the following map(with Llwyngoffre etc. top left of the adjacent map)
http://maps.nls.uk/view/101608033
Joseph(1794) could be the son of this Joseph.
Regards
Roger
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Your shot at the correct Pantyffynnon is on the mark. The will of 1753 states, 'Pantyffynnon, Ystradmeurig'. ( The one that I remember from Edward Richard, Schoolmaster, was at Swyddffynnon). One point about the Joseph Davies of 1794 is that he is always shown as being born in Lledrod.
The name of Joseph Davies reminds me of our search for a David Richards where everything we touched produced one that we were unable to recognise immediately as the correct one.
We still haven't investigated the 'Elephant in the room' of the two Davies brothers that are associated with Penbryn. With their mother, Elizabeth, still alive in the 1790s, then either of her two sons, William and Richard, (her next of Kin) would be possibles as being Joseph's father and the husband of the Richards woman that lived next-door at Bryn Issaf. This would fix his birthplace as Lledrod.
Regards, Peter
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What's left of my brain hurts.....
Regards
Roger
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We already have some information about the Davies family of Penbryn from various indentures. I here add some snippets from them.
The 'Fine', original is dated 1762
[Thomas Richards, gent. and Jane his wife, of two tmt's called Penbryn-issa alias Tythyn-y-bryn-merllyd, and Bryn-merllyd alias Tythyn-bryn-issa, and of a parcel of land called Gorse-glan-teify (60 a.), p. Lledrod, co. Card., to the use (as to the said parcel of land) of the said Morgan Harry in fee, but that no uses had been declared as to the said two tmt's, they therefore declared that the said fine should enure (as to the said two tmt's) to the use of William Davies of Penbryn, Lledrod.]
[Indenture, being a mortgage for £300 from Thomas Richards of p. Lledrod, co. Card., gent., to Elizabeth Davies of p. Sputty Ystrad Meirick, co. Card., widow, of two tmt's called Penybryn-meillid and Bryn-llyd in said p. Lledrod. Dated 1764.]
[ an indenture was made on the condition that the said Richard Davis would release the said tmt's to his brother before 7 April 1773, and that the said Richard Davis had not paid the £650 consideration money, and was not to pay it but to hold the said tmt's on trust for the said William Davis.]
Extract from an indenture of 1778
[ Elizabeth Davies of p. Lledrod, co. Card., widow, and Richard Davies of p. Llanvihangel Lledrod, gent. (brother of William Davies of Penbrynn in same p., gent.)
Entry from FreeReg. Infant Elizabeth Davies, death in 1798. (another sibling?)
If you add to this the fact that Joseph's sister, Ameilia, married the John Jones, (son of the Smith at Swyddffynnon, which is only a stone's throw from Penbryn and Bryn Issaf), then this hypothesis has more going for it than any other, so far.
regards, Peter.
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The very vaguest possible age for William Davies(If the right one!) may come from the following:-
A 1756 indent(search "William Davies "+ "1756" + "Hendrefelen") talks of a nuptial settlement between Jane,eldest daughter of William,and John Morgan.
There is a 1755 marriage under Strata Florida for John Morgan and Jane Davies which fits.
This might give Jane's birth at circa 1730 and William's circa 1700-1710?
Regards
Roger
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There are two William Davies involved in the Indentures. The parents are William and Elizabeth Davies and William and Richard Davies are their sons. I would say that the parents would be born C 1710 for William and later for Elizabeth. (She is a widow in 1764 and is still alive in 1778). Dates for the two sons would be circa 1845/55.
There aren't any records for the two sons, (except for the mention in indents shown above). The parents are shown as of Ystrad Meurig but nothing for the sons.
I included the death details for the Infant, Elizabeth, (1798) as another random shot. If one of the Davies sons is involved with the unknown Richards woman then both sets of parents have a mother named Elizabeth. As well as our search for various Josephs I have also had a search for Amilia Davies, just in case there would be a link but, once again, nothing. The wills that we've looked at all have a Davies in them but only one, without a link either forwards or backwards to give us a pointer in the right direction.
If the William in the wedding settlement Hendrefelen is our William Davies Snr. then the daughter Jane would be the sister of William Jnr. and Richard. Our Joseph Davies of Ynysperfedd names his second child, Jane.
No wonder our heads hurt; I think that we may be banging the proverbial brick wall!
Regards, Peter.
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Now I am confused.I didn't think Joseph Davies had his own family.
Regards
Roger
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I meant to say our 'unknown Davies', married to the 'unknown Richards woman', the parents of Joseph and Amelia. The child-death Elizabeth from 1798, (Lledrod), could have been their sibling.
Regards, Peter
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I've found a sequence for the Joseph Davies of Hafodygofen,nephew to David Davies(probable son of Joseph Davies 1780 will).He looks to be the son of Daniel Davies(1815 Penlan,Caron"intestate" will) and Averinah(1828 will,Caron).
As usual,I can't find a marriage yet,that might give Averinah's maiden name.Clutching at straws again I know but Averinah was a name in the Ffosybleiddiad Richards family.
Regards
Roger
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In my excitement I forgot he was an executor in 1806 and therefore probably too old to be Joseph(1794),but I'll see if I can get a date fix anyway.
Regards
Roger
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I spent the weekend listing what we know about Joseph Davies. We have his dates, 1794-1872, that he was born in Lledrod, was unmarried and had a sister Amelia (1796) and a possible sister in the infant Elizabeth Davies, (1798-98). Joseph and Elizabeth are buried in St. Michael's, Lledrod. He lived at Ynysberfedd before the 1834 will of Edward, until his death in 1872.
A good read of the tithe book for Lledrod of 1798 shows a number of Davies families living in the area but our attempts to link them to Joseph have failed. The closest farm to Ynysberfedd with a Davies family in 1798 is Llwynbeudy, (Llwynbedni in book). The tenant is David Davies. He dies in 1806, intestate, so we know that his wife was Mary Davies, (1760-1817), but that's all.
Hypotheses. If Owen Davies, (buried with Jane at St. Michael's), was David's brother and they were at this farm, together with their son and his wife plus Joseph and Amelia, then there would be no record of them at all. Neither Owen nor Joseph's father would appear as 'Head' as long as Mary is alive and this helps to explain the lack of detail. Joseph and Amelia are shown as born in Lledrod. I think that Joseph's burial alongside Owen and Jane at St. Michael's is more than a coincidence and David and Owen Davies must have been about the same age. (They die 5 years apart).
I don't think that we can squeeze any more info from what is available to us for this thread of the Richards family..
Close reading of the tithe book shows Richard Richards, (D 1812),the brother of David of Tynllan, living just a few meters from him at Tynant Ucha. Living at Tynant Issa is yet another David Richards who is probably Richard's son. David Tynllan's son David is only 7 years old at this date.
regards, Peter.
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New day, new idea.
Using the traits of the rest of the Richards family, Edward, John and James, the three brothers are shown with birth dates of 1758-1759-1763, they marry in the 1790s, (Edward in 1800) and have their first children straight away.
I've searched the St. Michael burials from 1800 to 1830 for a female Davies with a birth-date that shows her born around 1758-1763 ...There are just two.
Elizabeth Davies 1766-1824, and Margaret Davies 1762-1818.
Both are candidates as being the unknown Richards woman; Elizabeth, because the mother was named Elizabeth, and Margaret, because she fits into the 1759-63 gap.
Do your Church records give details of spouses etc?
(Noticeable in my search is the level of infant deaths at that time and there is the infant Elizabeth Davies in 1798).
Regards, Peter
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Will look later today-hospital visit with my father shortly.
Regards
Roger
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I don't have any extra information on the two "candidates" of your last posting I'm afraid.I will,however,look back at the posting before that as I've not really given that any significant attention so far.
Regards
Roger
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Something else has popped up in the graveyard search that is a similar hypotheses to the one above. A grave of William Davies, D1799 that includes a Joseph.
We know William Davies of Penbryn and his Indent links to the Richards family. His mother was Elizabeth and his father, William. The grave only gives his date of death so his birthdate is unknown.
Hypotheses. William of Penlan, D1799, has a son, Joseph. He marries the Richards woman in 1793 and they have the son, Joseph. Speculation that the Elizabeth Davies, (1766-1824) is the Richards woman fits, especially if the infant death of an Elizabeth Davies, (1798) is taken as being of the same family. No proof, as usual but that's the way it is in Lledrod past.
Regards, Peter.
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Interesting theory.I had seen the record,but the grave does not feature in the transcribed Lledrod MIs to put it in context.The transcribed record(no original) reads as William(forename)Joseph Davies(last name).
There is an intestacy bond for an Elizabeth Davies in 1797 with son Richard,but again no MI to help.
Regards
Roger
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The grave details that I saw say 'burial of William Davis 1799 ... relative, Joseph Davies'.
Regards, Peter
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The Intestacy bond is for Elizabeth, the mother of William and Richard, ex Penbryn.
[Indenture, being a mortgage for £300 from Thomas Richards of p. Lledrod, co. Card., gent., to Elizabeth Davies of p. Sputty Ystrad Meirick, co. Card., widow, of two tmt's called Penybryn-merllyd and Bryn-merllyd in said p. Lledrod. Dated 1764.]
[ Declaration by Richard Davies of Penbryn, p. Llanvihangel Lledrod, co. Card., that the grant made by an indenture was made on the condition that the said Richard Davies would release the said tmt's to his brother before 7 April 1773, and that the said Richard Davies had not paid the £650 consideration money, and was not to pay it but to hold the said tmt's on trust for the said William Davies.]
Regards, Peter
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Off Topic.
Yesterday I found that I have another Grandson. He turns out to be the son of my first son, Peter. The child that I had already attributed to him was in fact the child of his second marriage and the 'new' son was the child of his first marriage. He has a son too so, once again, I'm a great-grandfather! Gosh!
Regards, Peter
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Congratulations!
I'm a bit busy for a day or two but will not give up.Meanwhile I wondered where you(assuming it was you) arrived at the following precision:-
http://derelict76.rssing.com/browser.php?indx=11431009&item=250
Regards
Roger
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I'm sure that the entry is basically correct. We've been working on this family for ages and the information that we've gleaned in all that time is contained in the entry. If you think that it's seriously flawed then we might as well pack up our trunks and go home. I'm ready to write the William Davies connection into the tree too even though your criteria of having firm documented evidence for each and every person and event doesn't exist.
I notice too that whenever I unearth a possible candidate for consideration you concentrate on disproving that connection without coming up, yourself, with an alternative. We're dealing with a population and place where only a handful could read and write, where there are no records of birth and marriage and where dates of death on gravestones, whether accurate or not, is all that we have. I work on instinct and common sense and, although I'm without access to the searches and expertise that you have, I haven't done too badly with my input on this topic.
I genuinely feel that our race is run; we didn't actually win, mostly due to the lack of a finishing line and a referee but there we are, at least we had a go.
I think that we can do no more on this Topic. Let's retire gracefully.
Regards, Peter.
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I have posted this reply here as the data and speculation
seem more relevant than under the “Lledrod” post where
some relationships were originally queried.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=708963.msg6647094#msg6647094
Birth years have been calculated from the MIs at Lledrod
(copyright Cardiganshire FHS,2011),together with abode,
grave sequence and incidental information.
Elizabeth Richards 1745-1830 Tynllan
Her will refers to her daughter,who,I think is
Sarah Evans 1784-1839,and the wife of
Evan Evans 1770-1847 who is at Tynllan in 1841
together with their son John.
(I cannot find this marriage to give a maiden name,
but,presumably circa 1810,with children,as follows
William(1811),John(1815),Mary(1817) all on FreeReg
The Ceredigion Archives in relation to Tynllan,reference
a will of 1836 for William,the dates and family members
coinciding with William above.I CANNOT FIND THIS WILL.
There is a will separately for
William Evans 1755-1832 Llechwedd,Llangwyryfon
The relationship,if any,between Evan and William
(and possibly Jenkin Evans,1765-1833,PwllPridd)
could be key,*particularly as the will of this William Evans
is originally written in the name of William Richards with all
the beneficiaries referred to as Richards,but in the initial recital
Richards has been scored through and Evans substituted.*
Further,there are graves for sons of William and Mary:-
Thomas Evans 1795-1827
John Evans 1789-1830
Both MIs refer to them also as Thomas and John Richard
The will nominates “unsettled” family,Daniel,grandson John
(son of the late John,above),and William’s son and
executor David Richard(s),who presumably is resident at
Llechwedd in 1841,with his wife Mary,born circa 1805,
(marriage 1832,Lledrod,David Richard to Mary Morgan)
This David and Mary adopt Jane Morgans,daughter of Morgan
1800-1867 and Elizabeth Morgans of Llwyn(merchgwilym)
Speculation on the family of Mary Morgan,yields the following
possibilities:-
Daughter of David Morgans 1781-1854 of Ffosgoy
Daughter of Harri Morgans 1745-1837 Spite(and “late of Dolfor”)
husband to Mary Morgans 1779-1848
(given the age gap to Harri’s wife,he may have been married
before and David of Ffosgoy be his son,and Mary wife of David
Richard(s),his granddaughter)
Enough for now.
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger.
Your take on the links between these folk seems logical. I took the path of 'local usage' when I last looked at this ... children from previous marriages assuming the name of the 'new' parent resulting, perhaps, in the alteration to the surname of Richards in the William Evans will.
Llechwedd, in 1841, as you point out, shows David Richards, (groan), his wife Mary and Daniel, (B1835). In the cottage, close by, there lives a William Jones, (B1826), Margaret Jones, (B1827), Catherine Lewis, (B1821) and a Jane Morgan, (B1837). I don't know who the children in the cottage belong to as there are no parents shown. Jane Morgan is only 4 years old and is the adopted daughter of Morgan and Elizabeth Morgan that you refer to. The remaining three are possibly working on the farm, (81 acres).
I still haven't been able to trace David Richards, (B1801) but he can be linked to the Richards families in Llangwyryfon that I haven't seriously had a go at yet. I believe that they may be the remnants of one of the two sons of Richard David for which I have no details.
Regards, Peter.
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I've just had a look at my stuff for Richard David, (D1727). He had a son William, his second eldest and one that I have no records for. I see that the William Richards, corrected to Evans, was born in 1755. This date corresponds to the grouping of the various grandchildren of Richard David and, with a suspicion of surnames used at that time, I shall now be looking for a William Evans, not Richards, of Llangwyryfon. (re-marriage of his mother, loose adoption etc.).
Regards, Peter.
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The David Richard(s),circa 1801 of Llechwedd is directly referred to in the 1832 will of William Evans of Llechwedd,wherein the original Richards is scored out.
It seems to me William is most likely to be the son referred to in the 1794 will of Richard Evan(hence two possible versions of "surname") of Garth Vawr,Llangwryfon,an adjacent property.
Regards
Roger
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Yes. I forgot to add the patrimonics into the mixing bowl. I remember looking at an item that refered to a death of the tenant of Llechwedd where funeral arrangements and payment is made by a David Richards but I can't remember any details or dates but was probably the death of William Evans.
Regards, Peter.
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I have no idea whether this is relevant,but I came across the following
Oxford University Alumni
Richards,Thomas son of "Rd Ev.",pauper,Lledrod
Matriculated 1684 aged 22
Became vicar/rector at Verwick 1695 ,Aberporth,Rosemarket,Pembroke 1715
I have found his will of 1746 at Rosemarket.I haven't been able to
read it all,but he mentions a wife Elizabeth and a'fifth son" James.
This is the first time I can remember a James other than the original one.
The dates suggest one generation removed from your James(?) and the
connection with Lledrod even further,but I thought it worth mentioning!
Regards
Roger
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I remember coming across this Rev. during countless searches for any clergy named Richards but couldn't place him with anyone in my tribe. (Neither could I find any Richards family that would have been classified as paupers). Certainly members of the Lledrod grouping named their children after close relatives but we have John as well as James in the family of my Gx4 Grandfather, (John) and I haven't come across another John either.
The Thomas Richards that you mention was born in 1662, (around the same circa date as Richard David, my Gx7 so we have to go back another generation to get at his father). Could the "Rev. Ev." be Evan Richards although at that date it could have been anything. How does James merit the label, 'pauper' when he is shown as being a Cleric's son. "Collection every Sunday ...coins mostly but lots of them".
Regards, Peter.
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Hello I have today 8/10/2020 read with interest some of your comments from Dec 2016 and Jan 2017. My interest being that an ancestor of mine farmed at Esgerygors Isaf, Ledrod Upper {according to 1841 Census that is}.
Did you solve whatever query you were attempting ?
If your family owned this area, then maybe mine would have been their tenant farmers ?
Their name was Jones, of course!!!!
MH
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Hei Forestandtree.
The Richards family gave up Esgair in 1770 but your input may help to explain the mysterious, "Twyn-y-rhose", a property that appears together with Esgair in varous documents and which neither I nor Roger were able to locate, despite our best efforts. Esgair Issaf, (Twyn-y-rhose),may have been a small property within the boundaries of Esgair-y-gors and may not, during the 1700's and later, have been registered as a dwelling or shown on any maps.
Thank you for your interest.
Regards, Peter.
Richards in Anglesey. Liverpool, Cardiganshire.
Richards in Patagonia and Canada. Owens and Williams in Holyhead. Laird family, Birkenhead. Richards-Bridges family, Epsom.