RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Jan Ann on Saturday 13 September 14 00:11 BST (UK)
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HiYall ;)
Hope you are all well, it's a while since I've been on the Aussie Board but I have hit another brick wall and need the help of you lovely peeps ;D (crawl, crawl)
I have been looking into the mysterious Muriel Tivey for a few years, never found a birth or marriage for her or very much information really, the story surrounding her birth really touched me and although not a close rellie, I've been trying to find out more about her ever since (and failing really!). I have photos of her from family members when she was young but nobody seems to know much about her at all.
She was (allegedly) the daughter of Alma Winifred Moore (AKA Dorrie) and Alfred Tivey (AIF) who were both born NSW, they were unmarried when Dorrie gave birth around 1918. Both Alfred (b 1884, Cooma) and Dorrie resided in Bunadoon NSW before the war. He was killed in France 9 May 1918. I have found lots of info on Alfred and Dorrie and not seeking anything further at this point. Muriel was reputedly brought up between Alfred's spinster sisters Edith and Amy and his married sister Ruby (Green).
Muriel, remains a mystery, I had no idea who she married, when she died etc etc until a couple of weeks ago I spotted a death in Queensland for a Muriel WINDSOR 1961 Queensland Father's name Tivey. I decided to take the plunge and order the death certificate, the translation is as follows -
Death in the District of Brisbane in the State of Queensland, registered by Timothy Francis de Sales Scott: Number 46040; Place and date of death: 5th August 1961 Jackson's Estate, Cribb Island. (now part of Brisbane) Name: Muriel Windsor, Sex & Age: 43 years, Female: Cause of Death: Subdural haemorrhage (Written on "Fall on Stairs" Medical Attendant by Whom Certified: A Davison, after Post Mortem, 7 August 1961 (Date of PM). Name of Father: Tivey: Name of Mother: Non stated: Signature, description and residence of informant: B. Windsor Geebung: (Written in pencil - "Called 20/9/61 any further particulars Unknown to Him. Would call again if anything further." ) Signature of Registrar T F Scott, 7 August 1961 Brisbane: Where and When Cremated or Buried: Mt Thompson Crematorium by J E Wiggins Church of England: By Whom Certified E Atkey, E H Smith J. Smith: Where born and how long in Australian States: (Written: Unknown) If deceased was married (1) Where - Unknown, (2) At What Age - 18 years. (3) To Whom - Harold Windsor. Issue living, in order of birth, their names and ages. - B**** ****** aged 24, male; I** *********, Aged 22, male.
I believe there was also a daughter born c1943 (who Ive been in touch with but knows very little, but she isnt mentioned on the death cert, and may have been adopted at an early age)
So from this I have deduced that she must have married abt 1935/7 to "Harold Windsor" her first son being born 1936/7, second abt 1939. (Private because they might still be with us and I dont want to breach privacy - so PM me if you have info)
What I am looking for essentially is her marriage, anything about her husband (or anything else really!) I am guessing that the move to Queensland was something to do with her Uncle Thomas Edward Tivey who was unmarried and died in Brisbane 1953. Her spinster aunt Amy Violet, also died in Brisbane 1963 (both of them being born NSW).
Obviously, the Death Notices and newspaper articles on Trove for Brisbane only go up to 1954 so if someone has access to Brisbane Newspapers in August 1961 and can find anything more about her death or any other detail on her husband, marriage etc I'd be very grateful ;)
Cheers everyone, have a great weekend :)
Jan Ann
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Electoral Roll has two Qld entries in 1954 which may be her.
Muriel Irene WINDSOR, Moreton St, Paddington (Qld), home duties - no-one else of that surname at that address
Muriel Jessie WINDSOR, 10 Dorchester St, Highgate Hill, home duties
Raymond Milton WINDSOR, linesman at same address
I can't see either of these elsewhere.
Judith
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Really do not know if this has any bearing--
Electoral Roll 1925
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Rosemount Hospital
Fortitude Valley, Brisbane
WINDSOR, Harold, cook
Death by suicide 1947
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/49329959?
Sue
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incorrect information ::) Deleted
Sue
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Is this the same man?
Australian Electoral Roll
Qld 1936 Lilley/Windsor
WINDSOR Gertrude Mary Second Avenue, Albion HD
WINDSOR Harold Albert Second Avenue Albion Cook
Death
1947 B11286
WINDSOR Harold Albert
Father Frederick Mother Alice QUILLY
Cando
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And marriage
1925 B38729
WINDSOR Harold Albert
WHITE Gertrude Mary
Cando
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No mention of family in the funeral notices
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01a02/
Cando
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Gertrude Mary WINDSOR is still at the same address in 1980 as where Harold committed suicide. This is possibly not the right "Harold". :-\
Only Harold WINDSOR on the Qld electoral roll though.
Cando
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Jan there is an online tree with little detail apart from born c1918 and died Qld with parents Alfred TIVEY and mother Elma Winifred MOORE.
Cando
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cribb_Island,_Queensland
Doesn't sound an ideal place to live in the 1950's.
Cando
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You're sure right, there, Cando! ::) ::)
Because of the mud flats, it was terrible for mosquitoes.
As Wiki points out, it was all resumed for expansion of the Brisbane airport.
Dawn M
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Sounds as though she may have been down on her luck.
Signature, description and residence of informant: B. Windsor Geebung: (Written in pencil - "Called 20/9/61 any further particulars Unknown to Him. Would call again if anything further." )
I have located this man on the electoral roll at Geebung and will pm his full name and his wife's.
Cando
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Sounds as though she may have been down on her luck.
Signature, description and residence of informant: B. Windsor Geebung: (Written in pencil - "Called 20/9/61 any further particulars Unknown to Him. Would call again if anything further." )
I have located this man on the electoral roll at Geebung and will pm his full name and his wife's.
Cando
His wife remains on the electoral Roll to 1980, but his last registration is 1977.
Sue
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Thanks All for your comments and PM's - much appreciated. ;)
Maybe she wasnt married after all - unbeknown to her son who just assumed she was. Poor Muriel, she had a hard life and died so young. Her life could have been so different if her father hadnt have been killed in a senseless war - pretty sure her parents would have married on his return.
Will keep at it :) Thanks once again!
Cheers
Jan Ann :-*
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Seems I'm a few years late to join in this conversation but I feel it should be made known that a lot of what people have added is completely wrong.
Firstly, Muriel's husband was never on the Electrol roll anywhere in Australia, as he wasn't Australian.
Secondly, her son and his wife are very much still on the electrol roll as they are both living and voting!
Thirdly, Muriel hadn't fallen on hard times!!
I can assure you the information I have is correct.
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Hi there Kylie67
Welcome to RootsChat, a great please (oops,) place ( :) ) for help with family history research. I am sure that Jan Ann will be pleased with your post and info about Muriel and her family. If you make a couple more posts you will be able to use the Personal Message service and all the other features available for RChatters. :)
Even today (2017) there are still people enrolled to vote on Australian Electoral Rolls who are not Australian. Back in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and into the 1980s there were many non-Australians on the rolls. They did need to be British Subjects, either by birth, birthright or by naturalisation. http://www.aec.gov.au/Enrolling_to_vote/British_subjects.htm
Under section 93(1)(b)(ii) of the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918, British subjects, who were enrolled for a federal electoral division in Australia immediately before 26 January 1984, are eligible to enrol and vote at federal elections and referendums. Section 4 of the Referendum (Machinery Provisions) Act 1984 also provides that electors who are entitled to vote at an election are entitled to vote at a referendum.
JM (edit ... ::) I can't spell. )
That predictative text thingy had please instead of place :-[ ::) ;D :D
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Seems I'm a few years late to join in this conversation but I feel it should be made known that a lot of what people have added is completely wrong.
Firstly, Muriel's husband was never on the Electrol roll anywhere in Australia, as he wasn't Australian.
Secondly, her son and his wife are very much still on the electrol roll as they are both living and voting!
Thirdly, Muriel hadn't fallen on hard times!!
I can assure you the information I have is correct.
Kylie, thanks for your comments, you have my email address if you would like to contact me directly - it is also on the Tivey website.
I apologise if you think that any of the information quoted about your ancestor is incorrect, none of it was meant to be offensive.
At the end of the day, these chat members are only trying to build a picture of life in general and the geographical location in the 1950's. I'm grateful for their help, being situated on the other side of the world with limited access to Australian records.
It is 3 years since this chat was opened, other evidence has come to light since, including the information you have kindly shared with me since April 2015.
So once again - sorry if you are offended by the "fallen on hard times" comment or any other comments - it was unintentional.
Muriel's life has always intrigued me and will continue to do so.
Kind Regards
Jan Ann
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Hi Jan.
I wasn't offended by the comments, I just don't want people getting the wrong image of my grandmother.
People were going down the wrong avenue with regards to my grandfather.
I have to say though, my father finds this all very intrusive especially people PMing his details. He is however fascinated by all the Tivey information on the internet. He was very close to his mother and out of respect for him, I feel protective of her.
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Kylie ....Electoral rolls to 1980 are online and anyone who pays a subscription to the websites which have the rolls, may view them. Electoral rolls are also available at many libraries. Electoral rolls can also be viewed at Electoral Offices. In other words the information is in the public arena.
Rootschatters use Private Messages so the information isn't in the public arena. The messages can only viewed by the sender and receiver.
I notice that the answer to where and when Muriel married hasn't come to light. I can't see a registration in either Queensland or Victoria. I understand Muriel was born in NSW in 1918 so the birth registration will be online next year ie after the date she was born in 1918. Birth registrations/certificates are restricted to the general public for 100 years in NSW.
Jan there is at least one public tree including Muriel as well as your wonderful website ;D I haven't looked any further.
And these
http://www.monaropioneers.com/nimmitabel/pioneers/tivey-m.htm
Cheers :)
Cando
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Cando... I don't need to pay to see the electoral rolls to know both my parents are on there. I just said my father finds it intrusive people sharing his details, and I agree with him. After all, people he doesn't even know are delving into his mothers life. No one knew her as well as he did and he's old and all of this brings back some very happy but also some very unhappy memories for him. We, as her family, know all her details and out of respect for him, they will remain with us until such time as he is no longer with us.
I don't believe that is too much to ask!
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Hi there Kylie,
You mentioned that Harold was not on the electoral rolls because he was not an Australian, and I offered a reason for the likely sightings that are included in various posts on this thread. I did not notice your comment about that possible explanation.
I do agree that it can be thought intrusive to find your own name and address on those historic rolls that are readily available free to search via various Public Libraries, and of course to find the details of deceased family members there too. However, sharing details of deceased persons is one of the key aspects to family history research, and no laws are infringed by sharing those details (even in the public domain).
In my view, one of the greatest things about RootsChat is that there's a strict policy about not naming living people on the public forum threads, so may I please support other RChatters and assure you that the PM system is there to assist in respecting privacy rather than invading privacy.
JM edited to add (even in the public domain).
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Hi MJ.
I appreciate what you're saying and I do understand. I would like people to try understand the feelings of Muriel's family. I have emailed with Jan in the past regarding my grandmother and the reason I was unable to give her some information is down to the fact my father doesn't want it shared with strangers. That is his right and I respect that.
Kylie
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We all have family, some families are closeknit and others not so. I am sure we all strive to respect our families, so yes, I am sure we understand. I can understand that your paramount concern is that your father's wishes are respected and I am sure we have not disrespected him in anyway. We can appreciate too that there are other children and grandchildren for Muriel and they will also have memories of her and they too will expect their wishes regarding Muriel to be respected. Afterall, that's part and parcel of being family.
I am sure Jan is a responsible family historian, and has always acted with respect for all the TIVEY families being researched.
Purchasing publically available BDM certificates is one of the many ways that the research can be validated, and when purchasing death certs from Queensland BDM we all appreciate that these are not available until 50 years after the death of the named person. Queensland laws restrict access to the general public for 100 years for births, 75 years for marriages and 50 years for deaths as they too respect the privacy of the individuals named in those official records.
Muriel's certificate that Jan purchased and then asked about in her opening post shows Muriel's death occurred 5th August 1961, Jackson's Estate, Cribb Island, Brisbane. Several children were named on that official certificate and Jan did not disclose their names in that opening post, out of respect for them and in complying with RChat's policy about naming living people. None of us knew if they were living or not, but we all chose to assume they were still young enough to be living, so we did not type their names up online in the forum. RChat forums are easily found via Google search.
Jan purchased that certificate in 2014 (as per her opening post) so she purchased an official record that anyone, not just family but anyone, any member of the general public, can purchase for around $20.00 (it may have been less in 2014).
So yes, I am sure we do understand.
JM
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JM, I apologise for mistyping your initials in the last message.
My father is the only child with memories of his mother. She passed before becoming a grandmother. I don't understand why this need for people to know her business! She was born, she died. That is all that's really required to fill in the family tree.
I don't care about what documents are available online. I care about my families privacy, that's all.
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Kylie,
I understand your predicament and I have asked the moderator to remove the topic from the board, once and for all - so far she has refused to do so, because rules havent been breached. I have made a further appeal to her and await her decision.
It really wasnt my intention to upset your dad or yourself. This post was in 2014 BEFORE we spoke privately about your grandma and the information you gave me in 2015, has not been disclosed or discussed with anyone else, and as your wishes at the time -
As for the comment about family trees (and history) being just about dates born and died, far from it. My project is about preserving family stories, documentation, photographs, newspaper items, personal achievements, it is a project that will hopefully last for generations to come, for those who have an interest in their ancestors lives. I have invested 12 years of my life discovering the lives of the various Tivey Generations around the world, my project has probably cost me thousands of pounds of my own money, and thousands of hours of my time.
I have NEVER disrespected a family's or individuals wishes, not to publish something. It is rare when I have been asked to do so, but nevertheless I ALWAYS respected the families concerned.
Again, please accept my sincere apologies if the post upset you or your dad, as I said - I have asked the Rootschat moderator to remove the post - her decision is out of my hands.
Kind Regards
Jan Ann
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Kylie may I suggest that if you hadn't revived an old thread people wouldn't be interested in Muriel. As family historians assisting one another with our research, the detective in some of us may search further.
Your father is not named on the thread however if you do a search on google for Muriel TIVEY, then that's a different matter. A web page contributed by her daughter name Muriel's children by their given names, both living and deceased.
There is also a public tree indicating Muriel had two partners and five children.
I think the thread should stay.
Cando
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Hi there,
I am quite sure that there's many RChatters and also our Global Moderators who would agree that I am keenly aware of the expectation to privacy of the individual and Australian Privacy guidelines. I have read back and re-read back and gone over and over this thread, and I cannot see that any person's privacy has been infringed.
I am sorry that Kylie's dad's response causes concerns, however surely it was on his learning that an Electoral Roll listing from perhaps the 1960s or 1970s has been accessed and shared with our Original Poster, so may I reiterate that such info was exchanged by Private/Personal Message and would have been recognised by both the sender and the receiver to be of a speculative nature for I am sure that such electoral roll information does NOT give names of the elector's parents, and thus would not, of itself, be identifying the elector as a son or daughter of Muriel, already known to have been deceased by the entry on the 1960s or 1970s roll. The most recent online electoral roll for Australia is currently 1980. :) It, like several earlier ones includes my name and address, and I am still enrolled under that same name and at that same address.
I agree with Cando that the thread should stay.
JM
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He is however fascinated by all the Tivey information on the internet. He was very close to his mother and out of respect for him, I feel protective of her.
Your father's great interest in the online information illustrates the point .
It is the details, not just birth, marriage and deaths facts, that make the stories so enthralling ;D
Is it reasonable that his family details are held close while those of the many others that build the whole story are added?
Everyone in any family history was someone's relative!
Sue
PS No rules broken here :D
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I said he was fascinated, not that he had a great interest! I can understand someone wanting to do their family tree. We have ours! But when someone totally unrelated starts delving into your family it does come across as a bit odd. People makes mistakes and wrong information can be passed on even by (distant) relatives. So when strangers get involved there is even more room for error. As is with the suggested details of Harold.
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:) :) :)
May I share the following RChat link :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/aboutus.php
JM
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May I share extracts of the 2014 posts re the mentions of a chap named Harold WINDSOR.
Really do not know if this has any bearing--
Electoral Roll 1925,
……WINDSOR, Harold, cook
Is this the same man?
No mention of family in the funeral notices
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01a02/
…. This is possibly not the right "Harold". :-\
Only Harold WINDSOR on the Qld electoral roll though.
JM
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I said he was fascinated, not that he had a great interest! I can understand someone wanting to do their family tree. We have ours! But when someone totally unrelated starts delving into your family it does come across as a bit odd. People makes mistakes and wrong information can be passed on even by (distant) relatives. So when strangers get involved there is even more room for error. As is with the suggested details of Harold.
I suggest you note what I have at the end of each of my posts.
Remember that everything is only speculation until verified!!!!
You don't seem to have an understanding of what is involved with family history research.
I have found lots of information about my parents, grandparents and as well as distant relatives online and not always on public family trees. It doesn't worry me. I am pleased that others are interested and are possibly related albeit quite distantly.
Your father was not Muriel's only child and you don't seem to respect or wish to acknowledge that fact.
Scroll down to the bottom of this link
http://www.monaropioneers.com/nimmitabel/pioneers/tivey-a2.htm
Cando
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I said he was fascinated, not that he had a great interest! I can understand someone wanting to do their family tree. We have ours! But when someone totally unrelated starts delving into your family it does come across as a bit odd. People makes mistakes and wrong information can be passed on even by (distant) relatives. So when strangers get involved there is even more room for error. As is with the suggested details of Harold.
Oh, yes, I see now. You did say fascinated. So not that interested I guess.
Yes, I am totally unrelated to the people of this topic, but that is OK in this forum. ;D
No rules broken there.
As to Harold.
As JM has shown in her quotes, we did decide he was not the correct chap. Just an attempt to help on my part (as we all do in the forum) and subsequently dismissed as error.
Sue
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I came across this discussion by accident. Very interesting as I am one of Muriel's number of Grandchildren. My mother was adopted by another family when she was young, as were others. She found her mother's identity when her adoption records were released. My mother subsequently located all her brothers and they are now all aware of their family history and circumstances. My mother was the only girl and has taken a great interest in Muriel and her family's history. More information I believe is on the Monaro family history site. I guess for information, Muriel's legacy consists of now numerous Grandchildren and Great Grandchildren, some of who have researched her life and family. Thank-you :)