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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: jemappelle on Wednesday 01 October 14 00:37 BST (UK)
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I'm particularly looking for more information on William Davis. I have his marriage certificate and details of his 12 children, however, have no date of birth or date of death for him. Cemetery searches have provided nothing either!
Most of his children were born at Queanbeyan/Lake George/Captain's Flat. One child was born at Cooma. The Cooper's owned Willeroo Station and a property at Cooma at this time so I presume William was working for them as Willeroo is mentioned on on some of the certificates.
His last child was born in 20/11/1890 and the birth was registered by his wife so he was alive earlier that year. I have a marriage certificate document (handwritten) for one of his daughter's marriages dated 13/5/1896 which shows William as living at Willeroo but then next to his occupation he's shown as "Labourer (dead)".
It seems strange that there are birth records for all of his children and death records for the two infants that died but nothing for him. I've found one inscription for an unmarked grave at a Queanbeyan cemetery for one of the infants.
Any help greatly appreciated.
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Hi there,
Do you have his parents names as per his 1869 NSW marriage cert?
Do you have his wife's dc? It should give you her burial details, which can be a clue to finding him.
PS, Welcome to RChat. It's a great place for help with family history.
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
Do you have his parents names as per his 1869 NSW marriage cert?
Do you have his wife's dc? It should give you her burial details, which can be a clue to finding him.
PS, Welcome to RChat. It's a great place for help with family history.
Cheers, JM
To answer your questions JM, the parents' names have been left blank on the marriage certificate and I have his wife's death certificate but she remarried in 1899 and is buried with her second husband so no clue there.
And thank you for the welcome. :)
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Agh, another of those NSW BDM summary registrations that NSW BDM has not ever reconciled to the Church Registers.
Here’s a (now very long) thread re those elusive blanks. Basically, in that thread, I am suggesting you consider contacting the current holder of the original parish register, as the clergy did ask the questions (the age of the bride and the groom, where each was born, who their parents were, including details about their mother's nee names, etc) but the clergy sent only a summary to NSW BDM due to a very long dispute (sorted in about 1895).
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
What was the denomination of the clergy on your 1869 mc please.
Cheers, JM
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It was Church of England.
I'm off to read that other thread now - thank you!
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That other thread was very interesting! I've contacted two family historians in the area that hopefully will be able to help.
Thanks again for your replies. :)
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Just thought I would update here in case anyone has any further tips. I've heard back from an historian who very kindly (and much appreciated by me) went to the National Library and looked up the marriage details in the Parish register and this what she found:
I checked the parish registers of the Anglican Church Diocese of Canberra and Goulburn, 1839-1921, at the NLA today and found the marriage record for Davis-Holmes on 1 February 1869. Unfortunately, no parents’ names were provided. It is interesting that there were four marriage entries on the page, two of which gave the names of parents and two did not. The two that didn’t were for marriages conducted at the School House, Collector on the same day (1 February 1869).
I have some handwritten marriage documents for other marriages so I think I need to try and get a copy of these. Would the State Library help me with these, does anyone know?
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Good Morning,
Somewhat off topic but may be of interest :-
26043 Queanbeyan - William Davis Appointed by the Secretary for Lands on the nomination of the Sheep owners of the district as Sheep Director 9/02/1869 V. & P. Legislative Assembly Blue Book 1869; Secretary for Lands. Sheep Directors.
terry
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That is interesting Terry. My William Davis was a Labourer at Willeroo Station at that time - do you think it could be him or would that title have gone to a land owner?
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Hi maybe. plus the following??
Place Salary/Pension/Rent of lease First Name Surname Notes 1 Occupation Year Appoint/Reg /Pension Start 1st Appoint/Date purchase Sources/ Notes 2
Queanbeyan District £55.19.6. William Davis Lease of 13 lots with an area of 8930 acres - 1865 Annual leases. 1st. Class Settled Districts..Y.E. 31st Dec 1865; showing rent paid for leases.
terry
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jemapelle,
Would you list in birth order the names of the children to William and Martha DAVIS.
William seems to have a second given name-George. Is this your understanding?
Sometimes there is clue to parental names given in the naming of children and it may help to learn more details of your William.
Some more questions ::)
Do you know the burial place of this child?
REG 11358 Yr 1883 DAVIS Richard H
Parents William G & Martha
At QUEANBEYAN
Does the second marriage certificate show, under status/condition of bride, the word widow?
Have you located the deaths of all the children shown on Martha’s DC? And do they all children show William DAVIS as their father?
The reason I ask is there are other possibilities.
For instance, the last child may not have been William’s, he may have wandered of or died some years earlier.
Possibly William was not dead at the time of Martha’s second marriage, merely “whereabouts unknown” for some years.
Sue
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jemapelle,
Would you list in birth order the names of the children to William and Martha DAVIS.
William seems to have a second given name-George. Is this your understanding?
Yes on some paperwork he is listed as William George and on the inscription for his infant son's grave he is shown as George William. The children are:
1868 - William John Henry
30/10/1869 - Ada Ann
1871 - Frances Elen
22/8/1873 - Emily Esther
6/11/1875 - Arthur Albert
5/12/1877 - Martha Eleana (birth reg'd by William Davis, birthplace Sydney, aged 40, living Willeroo)
1879 - Amy Elizabeth
1881 - Richard Henry
1883- Victoria
June 1885 - Sydney J born, died 30/9/1885 and buried at Riverside Cemetery, Queanbeyan
1887 - Edward G
2/11/1890 - Annie May
Sometimes there is clue to parental names given in the naming of children and it may help to learn more details of your William.
Some more questions ::)
Do you know the burial place of this child?
REG 11358 Yr 1883 DAVIS Richard H
Parents William G & Martha
At QUEANBEYAN
Unfortunately I haven't found this . . . yet!
Does the second marriage certificate show, under status/condition of bride, the word widow?
Yes, it says widow.
Have you located the deaths of all the children shown on Martha’s DC? And do they all children show William DAVIS as their father?
I don't have this document and never thought to get it, but I will!
The reason I ask is there are other possibilities.
For instance, the last child may not have been William’s, he may have wandered of or died some years earlier.
Interesting, but the spacing between the children is pretty consistent though.
Possibly William was not dead at the time of Martha’s second marriage, merely “whereabouts unknown” for some years.
Sue
I also have two electoral rolls for a William Davis residing at Willeroo - 1870 and 1878-79.
Thanks for your help, Sue. I really appreciate it. :)
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June 1885 - Sydney J born, died 30/9/1885 and buried at Riverside Cemetery, Queanbeyan
Ahh!
I had placed little Richard H. DAVIS( d.1883) as the death closest to the last probable sighting of William DAVIS, his father. I had missed the forename reversal for Sydney J DAVIS's death entry.
As you know where Sydney was buried, you will have eliminated that cemetery from your search for William G. DAVIS I'm sure.
Sue
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Yes I have. Edward G was born in Cooma in 1887 and the eldest son was also married in Cooma so I've looked around that area as well!
I've even contacted people who hold the Willeroo Station cemetery records and there is only one person listed there.
So frustrating sometimes! :)
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The eldest daughter, Ada Anne, married on 25/5/1885 and her father was listed as John William Davis! It's the only time I have seen it written like that though.
Another daughter married on 13/5/1896 at Nowra and William was shown as living at Willerro but next to his occupation it says "Labourer (dead)" so does that mean he died will living at Willeroo, I wonder?
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On the marriage certificate 1869 do you have names of witnesses please?
What age do you see (on birth certificates) for William?
From at least 1896, and marriage of Amy Elizabeth in Nowra, Davis family would seem to be on south coast of NSW.
Daughter Ada A DAVIS m. Martin RODGERS 7015 / 1885 Queanbeyan
birth
18037 / 1891 ROGERS William E parents Martin / Ada A Kiama.
this is earlier than appearance of Martha and children on south coast.
Is Davis connection to the south coast by way of family of father William DAVIS, or mother Martha HOLMES....or maybe no family connection, but might be worth following.
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On the marriage certificate 1869 do you have names of witnesses please?
Witnesses are William Charleston and Elizabeth Cooper
What age do you see (on birth certificates) for William?
I only have two birth transcripts - he is shown as 40 in December 1877 and 44 in December 1890
From at least 1896, and marriage of Amy Elizabeth in Nowra, Davis family would seem to be on south coast of NSW.
The eldest son was a miner at Yalwal (west of Nowra) - earliest record of him being there is 1892 but, of course, he could have been there earlier. I wonder if Martha moved to Yalwal because William was dead and she needed financial help.
Daughter Ada A DAVIS m. Martin RODGERS 7015 / 1885 Queanbeyan
birth
18037 / 1891 ROGERS William E parents Martin / Ada A Kiama.
this is earlier than appearance of Martha and children on south coast.
Is Davis connection to the south coast by way of family of father William DAVIS, or mother Martha HOLMES....or maybe no family connection, but might be worth following.
As I said above, the eldest son was a miner at Yalwal.
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You may already have this and it doesn't help with finding William.
Monaro Pioneers site has a photo of the grave of William and Martha's eldest son at Bredbo.
NSW BMDs show his birth
NSW 9178/1868 reg Goulburn
William J H DAVIS, parents William, Martha
Death
NSW 14933/1927, reg Cooma
William DAVIS, parents William, Martha
Monaro Pioneers - you need to register but it's free and often has fairly reliable information (check always though!) The photo shows his death date as 12 July 1927. He seems to be the only DAVIS buried there and there are no other relationships, other than parents shown for him on the Monaro Pioneers site.
http://www.monaropioneers.com/TNG/getperson.php?personID=I286303&tree=MP
I have included Monaro Pioneers' references where shown
There is an entry listed for
DAVIS, William George
Birth and death dates unknown
Note: aboriginal
Married Martha ORME, 1 Feb 1869 Collector, NSW ( ref: NSW BMDs)
These are the children listed on this site
1. Davis, William John Henry, b. 12 Mar 1868, "Willeroo", Lake George, NSW
2. Davis, Ada A., b. 1869, Goulburn, NSW
3. Davis, Frances E., b. 1871, Goulburn, NSW
4. Davis, Emily Esther, b. 1873, Goulburn, NSW
5. Davis, Arthur Albert, b. 1875, Goulburn, NSW d. 1951, Wollongong, NSW (Age 76 years)
6. Davis, Martha, b. 1878, Queanbeyan, NSW
7. Davis, Amy Elizabeth, b. 1879, Queanbeyan, NSW d. 1933, Ashfield, NSW (Age 54 years)
8. Davis, Richard Henry, b. 1881, Queanbeyan, NSW d. 1883, Queanbeyan, NSW (Age 2 years)
9. Davis, Victoria, b. 1883, Queanbeyan, NSW
10. Davis, Sydney J., b. 1885, Queanbeyan, NSW d. 1885, Queanbeyan, NSW (Age 0 years)
11. Davis, Edward George, b. 1887, Cooma, NSW
12. Davis, Annie M., b. 1890, Captains Flat, NSW
Monaro Pioneers has this death attributed to William DAVIS, the first-born son
d. 1938, Wollongong, NSW (Age 69 years)
However I would dispute this as the only index entry on NSW BMDs for a death of a William DAVIS in Wollongong in 1938 has the parents listed as William and Mary. I feel that the Bredbo burial is more likely to be the right one. However it would need checking.
Monaro Pioneers has quite a lot of info re Martha.
Judith
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Thanks Judith. I have been in contact with Ian from the Monaro Pioneers website and he has taken that information from ancestry.com.au
Unfortunately I can't verify that information on William's supposed Aboriginality and Ian can't remember where he got the information from.
I have an Electoral Roll for 1930 which shows William John Henry as living in Pritchard St, Yass at that time so the burial at Bredbo isn't him either. I will see if I can find a burial for him in a Yass cemetery.
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Yes, looks as though the Bredbo death is not correct.
I see William John Henry DAVIS, blacksmith, at 1 Plunkett St, Yass in 1943. Laura DAVIS, hd, at same address.
Possible marriage
NSW 1902 #2603, registered at Yass
William J H DAVIS, Laura C WEBBER
Laura Constance WEBBER birth registration in Queanbeyan, 1881.
Parents: James Richard WEBBER, Clara
Judith
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William J H married Catherine Hayes at Captains Flat in 1889 so I don't think the Yass fellow is a relative! I've confirmed that through BDM.
If that's the case, the Monaro Pioneer database could have the wrong fellow.
I have to admit that because there are so many children I haven't researched each carefully yet.
Why do my ancestors have to have such common names. LOL
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Well, the Yass man is eliminated anyway.
However, I think the chap buried at Bredbo is almost certainly William, the son. There is an inquest shown for him
DAVIS, William John, aged 57
Inquest held 14 July, 1927 at the Bredbo Hotel by J Gale
Received 16 July, 1927
Place of birth: Wolloroo, NSW (sic)
Place and cause of death: Bredbo. Suffocation xxxfully? caused by hanging himself while in an unsound state of mind. No post-mortem was held, no property or money found on him.
TROVE has this account
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/99313725
This account says that he was a miner of Wollongong, had already suffered a 'nervous breakdown' and had gone to Bredbo for a break to stay with some friends.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/118989283
Judith
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Thank you Judith, that is very interesting! I search on Trove most days and never find anything!
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Possible extension of this family? - death certificate for Martha would be useful to you.
William J H b. 1868
6876 / 1889 William J DAVIS m. Catherine HAYES Bungendore
Ada A b. 1869
7015 / 1885 Ada A DAVIS m. (1) Martin RODGERS Queanbeyan
1122 / 1894 death Martin ROGERS ps. Michael Sydney
5380 / 1895 Ada M ROGERS m. (2) James GOODWIN Nowra
22111 / 1936 death Ada M GOODWIN ps William / Martha Macksville
(see WW1 Arthur Albert ROGERS #2410 , mother Ada GOODWIN)
Frances E b. 1871
5798 / 1887 m. William H SMITH Cooma
Emily Esther b. 1873
4315 / 1890 Emily DAVIS m. Frederick WAGSTAFF Kiama
33836 / 1963 death Emily Esther WAGSTAFF ps. William George / Martha Nth Sydney
Arthur Albert b. 1875
24990 / 2951 death Arthur Albert DAVIS ps. William Martha (30 August 1951)
children b. to Arthur Albert and Theresa J south coast, but I cannot see a marriage.
Martha b. 1878
3629 / 1896 Martha E DAVIS m. Joseph E MORGAN Nowra
Amy Elizabeth b. 1879
5739 / 1896 Amy E DAVIS m. Edward FLETCHER Nowra
18031 / 1933 death Amy E FLETCHER ps. William / Martha Ashfield
Richard Henry b. 1881 d. 1883
Victoria b. 1883
4430 / 1900 Victoria DAVIS m. Charles MAHER Nowra
23354 / 1957 death Victoria MAHER ps. William / Martha Bulli
Edward G b. 1887
Annie M b. 1890
2307 / 1910 May A DAVIS m. Walter A MAHER Nowra
35158 / 1964 death Annie May MAHER ps. William / Martha Bulli
South Coast Times and Wollongong Argus 27 Nov 1925 In Mem.
Martha HOWARD d. 27 Nov 1924 Bellambi 73 years
husband Alfred
son and D-I-L...... William and Catherine, grand daughter Gladys
daughter and S-I-L......Victoria and Charles MAHER
daughter and son.......Elena and Joseph MORGAN
grand daughter and grand son L and A CASTLE and family
grand daughter and grand son Nellie and Alfred HOUSE
I am not easily seeing the HOUSE and CASTLE marriages.
Martha d, 1924, aged 73, so b. ~ 1851, There could be births to her after 1890.
Her death certificate would name her children.
BDM NSW
2174 1917 Ellen M DAVIS m. Alfred HOUSE Wollongong
Illawarra Mercury 24 Oct 1983
Ellen Mary HOUSE d. 20 Oct 90 years formerly West Wollongong.
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Possible extension of this family? - death certificate for Martha would be useful to you.
Yes these are all the children registered to Martha and William that I can find.
William J H b. 1868
6876 / 1889 William J DAVIS m. Catherine HAYES Bungendore
Ada A b. 1869
7015 / 1885 Ada A DAVIS m. (1) Martin RODGERS Queanbeyan
1122 / 1894 death Martin ROGERS ps. Michael Sydney
5380 / 1895 Ada M ROGERS m. (2) James GOODWIN Nowra
22111 / 1936 death Ada M GOODWIN ps William / Martha Macksville
(see WW1 Arthur Albert ROGERS #2410 , mother Ada GOODWIN)
Frances E b. 1871
5798 / 1887 m. William H SMITH Cooma
Emily Esther b. 1873
4315 / 1890 Emily DAVIS m. Frederick WAGSTAFF Kiama
33836 / 1963 death Emily Esther WAGSTAFF ps. William George / Martha Nth Sydney
Arthur Albert b. 1875
24990 / 2951 death Arthur Albert DAVIS ps. William Martha (30 August 1951)
children b. to Arthur Albert and Theresa J south coast, but I cannot see a marriage.
Martha b. 1878
3629 / 1896 Martha E DAVIS m. Joseph E MORGAN Nowra
Amy Elizabeth b. 1879
5739 / 1896 Amy E DAVIS m. Edward FLETCHER Nowra
18031 / 1933 death Amy E FLETCHER ps. William / Martha Ashfield
Richard Henry b. 1881 d. 1883
Victoria b. 1883
4430 / 1900 Victoria DAVIS m. Charles MAHER Nowra
23354 / 1957 death Victoria MAHER ps. William / Martha Bulli
Edward G b. 1887
Annie M b. 1890
2307 / 1910 May A DAVIS m. Walter A MAHER Nowra
35158 / 1964 death Annie May MAHER ps. William / Martha Bulli
South Coast Times and Wollongong Argus 27 Nov 1925 In Mem.
Martha HOWARD d. 27 Nov 1924 Bellambi 73 years
husband Alfred
son and D-I-L...... William and Catherine, grand daughter Gladys
daughter and S-I-L......Victoria and Charles MAHER
daughter and son.......Elena and Joseph MORGAN
grand daughter and grand son L and A CASTLE and family
grand daughter and grand son Nellie and Alfred HOUSE
Interesting that only some of the children are mentioned. Mind you it would have cost a fortune in those days to include them all!
I am not easily seeing the HOUSE and CASTLE marriages.
I haven't looked for grandchildren of William and Martha as it is hard enough getting my head around the 12 children and their spouses and in some cases subsequent spouses.
Martha d, 1924, aged 73, so b. ~ 1851, There could be births to her after 1890.
Possible, but I haven't found anything. She was living at Yalwal after 1890 and had grandchildren being born.
Her death certificate would name her children.
I will order a transcript over the weekend. I'm just looking to see who has the quickest turn around.
BDM NSW
2174 1917 Ellen M DAVIS m. Alfred HOUSE Wollongong
Illawarra Mercury 24 Oct 1983
Ellen Mary HOUSE d. 20 Oct 90 years formerly West Wollongong.
Once again, thank you for your help!
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The names mentioned in the 1925 notice for death of Martha HOWARD formerly DAVIS are several separate notices put in by several individuals and families so does not function to name all the children of Martha.
You need to identify all the children of this family, with possible births 1890+, the better to narrow down the likely time span for death of William DAVIS.....also the purpose of the death certificate for Martha, with children listed.
The HOUSE and CASTLE families, grand children of Martha, would seem to be additional to the 12 children you have located, so would be useful to link to the DAVIS family. I have not been able to find this connection.
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Just thought I would update for anyone interested. :)
I've received the death certificate for Martha Davis/Howard and there are no "surprise" children listed. Unfortunately all that is listed for her first husband is his name, William Davis.
However I have received a copy of a birth certificate for one of the infant sons who died. The surpising thing with this is that it lists William Davis's birth as in Mittagong (NSW) and his age as 57 in 1885! So this puts his birth as approximately 1828.
And the place of birth was "Railway Line near Queanbeyan, NSW". So I'm trying to find out more on that as well.
I've been doing a bit of searching and have found a census for a 2 year old William Davis living at Goulburn Plains in 1828. His parents are listed as George and Mary Davis. George came out as a convict on the Earl Spencer in 1813 and Mary came out on the Broxbornebury in 1814. I have no maiden name for her so am a bit stuck!
Still looking for some wedding details but am excited to have gotten this far!
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The 1828 census has quite a few of the DAVIS family shown as "superintendent to Mr Terry, Murrambateman" (sic) which at least puts them near the right area. Murrumbateman is about 40k north of Canberra. Nearest Rail would be at Yass, or the line from Goulburn through Bungendore, Queanbeyan to Cooma.
There may have been other lines at earlier times. However the place of birth "railway line, near Queanbeyan" must have been recorded later as railways only began in the 1850s :-\ .
William DAVIS, 35, FS, Earl Spencer 1813
Mary (alias Lawrence), 36, FS, Broxenbury 1814
Hanna, 14
George, 12
James 10,
Elizabeth, 7
Judith
Judith
Willam, 2
Judith
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As per NSW BDM
Mary LAWRENCE married George DAVIS in 1818 Vol 7, line 298.
Mary LAWRENCE married George DAVIES in 1818 … Vol 3a, line 2135
As per family search org
3 Feb 1818. George was 30., Mary was 28
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCK-FQ8
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCT-N9C (check the status for both)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZV-HY9
from the Biographical Database of Australia (BDA) http://www.bda-online.org.au/
July 1814
Mary LAWRENCE, age 21, Servant, tried 4 Aug 1813 Dorset Assizes, 7 years, per Broxbornebury, arrived Sydney 28 July 1814. Ticket of Leave # 977, Certificate of Freedom # 461
Nov 1814 Muster
Mary LAWRENCE assigned to Mrs Reibey, at Sydney
Sept 1822 Muster
Mary LYONS per Broxbornebury, wife of George Davis, at Sydney
Sept 1823 Muster
Mary DAVIES, Murrumbateman info as per Judith’s post. oops, I have missed a couple of lines.
Sept 1823 Muster
Mary DAVIS per Broxbornebury, Free by Servitude, wife of George Davis, at Bathurst
Nov 1828,
Mary DAVIES, murrumbateman in as per Judith's post.
So, perhaps she was Mary LYONS, then Mary LAWRENCE (transported under this name), then Mary DAVIS
Cheers, JM
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3 February 1818
George DAVIS, aged 30, Bachelor, of Sydney, Mariner, (signed X) and Mary LAWRENCE, aged 28, Spinster, of Sydney, (signed X) married 3 Feb 1818, registered St Phillips C of E, Sydney by Banns, by William COWPER, Assistant Chaplain. Witnesses (both signed X) John TERAL and Amelia MAJOR.
Cheers, JM
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Thanks for all that information! I searched on the BDM and couldn't find anything. ???
Sorry, the birth at Railway Line near Queanbeyan was for a son of William Davis and he was born in 1885.
I also have a copy of a marriage certificate for one of the daughters that was married in 1885 and the residence is listed as Railway Works Queanbeyan. There are quite a few of the 12 children born at Queanbeyan so that could indicate a long residence at the Railway Works.
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I have stumbled across all this information. My great grandfather was Davis, Arthur Albert, b. 1875, Goulburn, NSW d. 1951, Wollongong, NSW (Age 76 years).
Im very interested in contacting anyone from the family tree. (*)
I have the old family bible that's had a little info for me to begin this search.
From what family have told me Davis owned blocks of land in Mathews street Wollongong which were all beside each other. Arthur Albert was one of them owners. he passed it on to my pop and nan Eric and Clara Davis. It was only sold about 15 years ago. love to get any info
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Hi Kezza0960, I would love to make contact with you. Perhaps you could make another few posts relating to what you have discovered, in this thread, and we could then private message each other.
I've had a bit of a break from family history so it was great to read through this thread and refresh my memory.
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The only info I have is what is in this thread. I started with births written in the bible I have. I don't have a lot of info.
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William Davis who married Martha Holmes (Orme) was an aboriginal born near Sutton Forest, Bong Bong areas (no definite date known). He was probably a half caste or maybe quarter. He died at Berry in 1891. He was working on railway lines and was killed by wagon wheel. His eldest son then took out a mining lease at Yalwal. His mother (Martha) and all family members were recorded at Yalwal in 1892. I have a lot of info re that family. Took me a long time to discover there was a name change from Orme to Holmes. Some info cannot be substantiated, but from family sources and pure research. I am a direct descendant from William Davis and Martha Orme. Many pages of info. Will include some items from my family history and put onto this site, very soon.
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Hi 'knows a lot' and welcome to the forum
You have certainly shared some interesting information and it does fit with William's other history of working on the railways at Queanbeyan.
However I have found a William Davis registered on a voting listl when he was living at Willeroo in 1870. My understanding is that Aboriginals were not able to register to vote until the 20th Century. I also thought only land holders could vote so this has confused me a bit (it's possible he had land at that time).
Also William Davis is a common name so it is possible there were two living at Willeroo Homestead at that time.
I've had a bit of a break from family history research but am now motivated to get back into it.
I look forward to hearing more of what you have found. Thanks for sharing. :)
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Hi there,
I can confirm that there are many instances of Aboriginal men on the NSW Electoral Rolls from about 1858. Definitely many on the 1870s and later rolls.
Cheers, JM
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:)
"In 1858 the franchise was extended to all adult males who had lived in an electorate for the preceding six months and were either British citizens by birth or had been naturalised for five years and had lived in the colony for the preceding two. Police, serving members of the armed forces, paupers and prisoners were barred from voting. The property qualification was retained and allowed a man to vote in every electorate where he had the necessary property. In 1893 the property vote was abolished as well as the six month residence requirement, which in effect gave the vote to itinerant workers and shearers and, in 1902 the vote was given to women."
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-1/short-guide-1
Any person, regardless of their parents ethnicity, maritial status etc, born in any colony/state of Australia was automatically considered a British Subject by birth.
It has not always been compulsory to enrol to vote. :) :) and there is plenty of evidence to show that Electoral officials, particularly from Federation until early 1960s were selective in how they went about encouraging people to enrol.
http://www.aec.gov.au/indigenous/files/history_indigenous_vote.pdf
ADD
http://guides.sl.nsw.gov.au/content.php?pid=367120&sid=3112777
"Aboriginal people of New South Wales have been eligible to vote since 1858. Few Aboriginal people were aware of their right to vote so it's surprising how many actually appear on the earlier rolls. It's only since 1984 that all Aboriginal people have been required to enrol to vote.
Read more about the history of the Indigenous vote or the electoral milestones for Indigenous Australians on the Australian Electoral Commission’s website."
Cheers, JM
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Thanks for that information majm. :)
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I am still looking for your William and Martha :)
Cheers, JM
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Possibly a sister to Martha ORME?
Goulburn Evening Penny Post 29 Oct 1935
Obit for Frances WADE d. 26 Oct.........74yrs...youngest and only surviving daughter of late Mr and Mrs HOLMES....born Bungendore.....married late George WADE....one time manager of Willeroo Station...
NSW BDM
birth
7589/1861 ORME Frances parents William / Ellen @ Goulburn
marriage
2881/1877 WADE George m. ORME Frances @ Goulburn
death
25204/1935 WADE Frances parents HOLMES 74yrs @ Goulburn
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Obit for Frances WADE, nee HOLMES is here, includes a list of her children.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/103387625
Judith
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WILLIAM DAVIS (c1840 – c1892)
MARTHA ORME / HOLMES (1850 – 1924)
William Davis married Martha Holmes (Orme) on 1st February 1869, in the school house at Collector NSW. William’s year and place of birth were recorded as unknown and his parent’s names were not shown. No birth record located. Later documents reveal William was aboriginal and probably born circa 1840 at Burrawang (located west of Robertson near Sutton Forest and Mittagong). His full name probably was William George Davis or possibly John William Davis. His wife’s birth name was Martha Orme and born at Jacqua (near Bungonia) on 18th October 1850 and she was christened at Bungonia Church of England on 18th April 1851. Martha’s mother (Ellen Peters) was possibly part aboriginal and Martha’s father (William Orme) was an ex convict, born in England.
On the 13th October 1866, a Nicholas Thomas had been charged with committing rape on the person of Martha Davis, wife of William Davis, a ploughman at Willeroo. On Friday, 19 October 1866, William Davis and Martha Holmes (Orme) were brought in custody to the Goulburn Police Court as unwilling witnesses in that case. William told the court that Martha was not his wife, but was living with him and her proper name was Holmes. Martha deposed that no rape had taken place. The prisoner was discharged. (See transcript at bottom of page 15 - Goulburn Herald newspaper column dated 20 October 1866).
When William Davis eventually married Martha in 1869, he was recorded as a shepherd/labourer and Martha as a domestic servant and both shown as residents at their employer’s large sheep station called “Willeroo”(adjoining Currowang parish). William Charleston and Elizabeth Cooper (both of Willeroo) were the witnesses . They also were the couple married prior to William and Martha’s marriage. (The Cooper family were the owners of Willeroo). William and Martha were their witnesses and their signatures were recorded as “his X mark” and “her X mark”. This revealed that both William and Martha were illiterate.
In June 1873, a William Davis was arrested at “Currawong” by police from Collector and charged with possessing several items of property belonging to the late John Cusack of Muttbilly (located near Breadalbane). Any subsequent gaol sentence or fines arising from the charge, are unknown. In August 1873, a daughter’s baptism record, shows William as a shepherd and living at Currawong (another sheep station, also owned by the Cooper family and it was located next to Willeroo). About 1880, William and Martha moved to Molonglo (another large grazing property, east of Queanbeyan and 40 kilometres south of Bungendore). In 1861, Molonglo had been absorbed into another property called Carwoola.
Whilst at Molonglo, William and Martha apparently befriended another (unrelated) Davis family who were residents of an adjoining property located at Primrose Valley. They were James Davis (who was a free settler from England and born circa 1842) and his wife, Mary Davis (nee Mundy) who was born on 2nd August 1853 at Bumballa. (A family story stated James Davis was born in Wales). Mary Davis (nee Mundy) may have been part aboriginal due to many members of the Munday and Mundy families of southern NSW are of aboriginal heritage. Mary Davis died on 1st November 1886, age 33, at Primrose Valley.
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In February 1883, Martha gave birth to Victoria Davis at a railway works campsite (probably the Bungendore to Captain’s Flat line). Victoria and her parents were recorded as residents at that campsite. In December 1883, Martha was summoned to a magistrate’s court at Bungendore and was fined 2/6 for neglecting to send a child to school.
During 1887, members of both unrelated Davis families were recorded at Captain’s Flat, where James Davis had obtained a government land grant. Members of both families were also recorded in the Cooma area in 1887 (due to birth of Mary Rodgers at Cooma (1st born child of Ada Ann Davis), plus marriage of Frances Ellen Davis to William Henry Smith at Cooma in December 1887). In November 1887 at Bungendore, a William Davis was fined for being drunk and disorderly in a public place. In 1890, children of William and Martha were recorded at Bungendore and a family birth also recorded in 1890 at Braidwood.
Archives of Braidwood Gaol show a William Davis imprisoned sometime between 1889 and 1892. The record does not reveal the term, dates or offence committed, but describes him as aboriginal, age 45, slight build, born in colony, free. He possibly was Martha’s husband and probably sentenced in 1889.
In 1890, some members of the family (including William) were recorded as labourers on construction of railway lines out of Queanbeyan. During the early part of 1891, most of the family of William and Martha (including the spouses of their eldest 3 children) then moved a considerable distance to the Kiama area. Also in 1891, Henry Penhall (see page 11) had moved his family from Tenterfield to Kiama. The moves to the Kiama region coincided with the commencement of new railway line construction from Kiama to Berry and then to Bomaderry (Nowra). That is the probable reason for the families moving to Kiama and they probably lived at railway campsites during the construction. Both the Berry and Bomaderry sections were completed in 1893.
At Kiama, another Davis family was already residing near the entrance of the Minnamurra River (6 kilometres north of Kiama) and had been residents there for several years. Also, another William Davis was a landowner at Jamberoo (7 kilometres west of Kiama). Possibly, one or both families could have been family related to our William and Martha.
Details of the 12 known children born to William and Martha Davis, are :-
William John Davis - born at Willeroo in 1868.
Ada Ann Davis - born at Willeroo 30 October 1869.
Frances Ellen Davis - born at Willeroo 21 December 1871.
Emily Esther Davis - born at Goulburn 22 August 1873.
Arthur Albert Davis - born at Willeroo 6 November 1876.
Martha Helena Davis - born at Willeroo 5 December 1877.
Amy Elizabeth Davis - born at Willeroo 1879.
Richard Henry Davis - born at Queanbeyan 1881.
Victoria Davis - born at Queanbeyan 25 February 1883.
Sydney James Davis - born at Queanbeyan 15 June 1885.
Edward George Davis - registered at Cooma 1887.
Annie May Davis - born at Captain’s Flat 20 November 1890.
When William Davis reported the birth of the 6th known child (Martha Helena Davis), he stated there were 2 males and 4 females as previous issues and currently living. (Birth records reveal 3 previous female issues). There is possibly another daughter whose name and birth details are currently unknown, but William probably had inadvertently included Martha Helena as a previous issue.
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William and Martha’s 4th known child (Emily Esther Davis) married at Kiama in 1891 to a Frederick Wagstaff. Family verbal history revealed the name Frederick Wagstaff was an alias, due to Frederick already married to someone else. A daughter of Frederick and Emily, died in 1925 and her father’s name is recorded as Stephen W. Wagstaff. Also in 1891, children were born at Kiama to three of the above Davis family members.
William Davis (father of above children) died sometime between 1891 and 1895. There is a record of a William Davis died at Berry on 27 November 1892 as a result of falling from a hay wagon. (Berry is located 30 kilometres south of Kiama and 20 kilometres north of Nowra). The death certificate of that William Davis states he was age 50, aboriginal, parents unknown and born at Burrawang (located near Robertson). This William Davis probably was Martha’s husband. The Davis family owned a similar bullock wagon, which was also used for transporting family members on their many travels. It is known that the bullock wagon was used when they moved from Goulburn and to Yalwal.
The next documented record of the family, reveals that prior to 2nd December 1892, the families had moved to the goldfields at Yalwal. (Yalwal is located 28 klms south west of Nowra). William Davis had been the provider for his family and his death would be the reason why Martha and her children then moved to Yalwal.
During the 1890s, Yalwal was a “booming” gold mining area. The village comprised a
hotel, store, post and telegraph office, a school, police station, several homes and many miner’s tents. Martha Davis obtained employment as a housekeeper at the residence of the mine manager and also worked as a midwife. The manager’s wife was interviewed many years later at Wollongong and she could not recall ever seeing the father of Martha’s children, nor of Martha mentioning a husband prior to Martha’s 2nd marriage in 1899.
The first documented reference of the Davis families at Yalwal, is the birth of Ellen Mary Davis at Yalwal on 2nd December 1892. (Ellen was the 2nd child to William John Davis and his wife Catherine Hayes). Another record reveals a W. Davis took out a sub-lease of a mine in the Parish of Ettrema on 21 December 1892. That W. Davis would also have been William John Davis (above) who was born in 1868 at Willeroo, now 24 years of age and the 2nd eldest child of William and Martha Davis.
Martha Davis (Orme) had a 2nd marriage to Alfred Charles Howard on 7th June 1899 at St. John’s school church in Nowra. Witnesses were Hugh Fletcher and Martha’s daughter, Victoria Davis. Alfred was age 30 and Martha was age 47. Most Davis related families then moved from Yalwal to Wollongong during 1908. They included Martha and Alfred. Martha died at Russell Vale on 28th November 1924 and is buried in the general cemetery at Bulli. Alfred and Martha were recorded as residents of Bellambi. Alfred used to own horses and a sulky. His death was caused by a motor vehicle hitting the horse and sulky.
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MAGISTRATE’S HEARING – 19 OCTOBER 1866 – GOULBURN POLICE COURT
Nicholas Thomas was charged with committing a rape on the person of Martha Davis, wife of William Davis, a ploughman at Willeroo. Davis and his wife were brought up in custody as unwilling witnesses. Senior Constable Dee deposed to apprehending prisoner by virtue of a warrant, charging him with the offence in question. He said that the charge was false.
William Davis deposed : The woman referred to in his information as his wife was not his wife, but was living with him ; her proper name was Holmes; on the 13th, while out ploughing, heard a great noise and saw Martha Holmes at the door; she was screaming and crying; heard her call prisoner a wretch; had previously heard her say “I shan’t” and “I won’t”; asked prisoner what he was doing; he made no reply, but went off; Martha Holmes never charged him with committing a rape.
Martha Holmes deposed that the prisoner had merely tried to kiss her and had asked her to go away with him and he would marry her.
Prisoner was discharged.
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What a wonderful lot of research which makes very interesting reading. Thanks for sharing
Judith
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I have about 100 A4 pages of data, maps, photos, and Australian history relevant to my Davis and Orme related ancestors and descendants. I do not follow only the male surname line, but include some family history of females married into the line. Quite a lot of old photographs of persons and places of interest.
Gathering of information and the research has been a mind blowing exercise. Sometimes leading in circles when incest and inter family affairs (or whatever) are uncovered.
Many of you researchers have probably experienced all the setbacks, etc. that I have experienced.
There are some instances where facts have been uncovered by me, which have previously been unknown. One of those facts was the family surname change from Orme to Holmes. Other reseachers had encountered a brick wall trying to uncover older records.
I had also encountered them until one day I was looking through the little old notebook that belonged to my grandmother. The one that she wrote down all the relatives names and birth years etc. I saw a tiny bit of writing at the bottom of an old page "Martha Holmes (orme)". That caught my attention and started to research the surname of Orme. It eventually opened up the previous history and made many other researchers (including relatives I did not know) aware of those then unknown facts.
The Berrima District Family History Society helped me with several items and I will forever be indebted to their knowledge and assistance. Several years ago, I forwarded printed and CD showing all the known details and photographs etc relative to my family history. Those records are in their archives. Since then there has been several small snippets added into my own records, but have not sent them to the Society as yet.
Overall, I am happy that I commenced doing family history. I have gained a lot of knowledge of Australia and the early days of what it must have been like, for the poor and underprivileged within society. It has enriched my admiration for the empathy of farmers and property owners of those early years in Australia's history.
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That was very interesting reading and I have come across a lot of this information before but it was great to see it all ordered - thank you very much. :)
I had a local historian research the William Davis who died in Berry in 1892 and she says he is not related to the William Davis that married Martha Orme/Holmes. This is what she said about the William that died in Berry:
William DAVIS died at age 50
Born 1842 in Burragorang, Picton, NSW
Died 27 Nov 1892 in Berry, NSW
Buried 28 Nov 1892 in Berry, NSW*
Ref: Aboriginal
Father:
Mother:
1873: Abode Burragorang, Picton, NSW
1890: Abode Kangeroo Valley
Wife: Charlotte Aboriginal
Married: 6 Aug 1873 in Burragorang Picton, NSW his age: 31 (Cert no 1873/3672)**
Born:
Died:
Ref: Aboriginal
1873: Abode Burragorang, Picton
* my research shows an unmarked grave at an unknown Berry cemetery
** I am unable to find that certificate on the BDM website
I have a copy of one of William and Martha's son's birth certificates that shows William was born in Mittagong and was 57 years of age when he registered the birth of Sydney James on 27 July 1885. However, other birth certificates vary on his age and place of birth! (Sense of humour needed for family history research)
I met a second cousin who happened to be researching William at the same time I was at the Shoalhaven Family History research centre and she said her mother remembers being told something about a wagon wheel. William's death certificate shows that he died when falling off a load of hay.
I guess we will never know for sure but I tend to think what 'knows a lot' has posted is part of my ancestry. :)
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The marriage is listed on NSW BMD
NSW 3672/1873 registered at Picton
William DAVIS
Caroline (no surname given)
You can search NSW BMD with just the Reg No and year.
https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search/result?2
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx
Judith
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Thanks Judb. Obviously I couldn't find it because the numbers were the wrong way around! I've had quite a break from family research so am out of practice with that sort of thing. Thanks again. :)
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ELLEN PETERS (c1818 – <1899)
also known as Ellen Meggett, Ellen Orme, Ellen Holmes, Helen Walker
JOHN MEGGETT (c1808 – 1842)
WILLIAM ORME (c1805 – 1863)
On 8th May 1837, an Ellen Peters married a John Meggett in the Christ Church at Bong Bong (near Sutton Forest). Ellen was recorded as age 19, native born, free, spinster and a resident of Inverary. The parish of Inverary was named after the original large property called Inverary Park, located near Bungonia (east of Goulburn). The Peters family were possibly employees at that property. Marriage record reveals Ellen was illiterate. Consent was given by her parents, but their names were not recorded. Her parent’s names are currently unknown. No birth record has been found for Ellen, but her birth year would be circa 1818. It is reasonably possible that Ellen might have been part aboriginal, due to Ellen recorded as “native born” (born in the colony). Ellen’s name was possibly Helen, but pronounced with a silent “H”.
One witness at Ellen’s marriage was a William Peters of Inverary, who was probably a brother or more likely, her father. He also was illiterate. Another witness was Isabella Chubb of Sutton Forest. She also was illiterate. A census conducted in 1828, shows a William Peters (convict) working for a Mr. Walker at Bungonia. Also recorded is a Richard Peters as the head of a household located at Sutton Forest. There was a Joseph Peters, who married at Parramatta in 1823 and moved his family to Berrima, then Bungonia and finally settling at Marulan circa 1827. Another William Peters was recorded working at Inverary in 1837. That William Peters was a convict who had arrived at Sydney in 1829 via the ship Claudine. He was granted a ticket of leave in 1836. He could not have been the father of Ellen Peters, but maybe he was her step-father.
Ellen Peters had 2 known marriages. Her 1st husband, John Meggett, was an ex convict. Surname pronounced as Medjet. He had arrived in Sydney on the “Royal Charlotte” in 1825 and obtained his Certificate of Freedom on 29th August 1831. Convict records show his surname spelling as Meggitt. In those same records, he is also noted as having previously used alias names of Henry Fowler and William Steward. John Meggett is recorded in the 1828 census (shown as Maggot and Meggit). He is recorded as age 26, a fireman at Darling Mills, Parramatta. He also was a patient at Hospital Parramatta in 1828 whilst in the service of a John Raine (a landholder of 3000 acres of cultivated land at Parramatta).
When John Meggett married Ellen Peters in 1837, the church record shows John as being 29 years of age, Bigger, Co St. Vincent, Bachelor. John was literate. His signature is recorded in the original church record. The word Bigger is an old Scottish name for a builder. The county of St. Vincent borders the eastern side of the parish of Inverary. John was possibly employed as a labourer on a property near Inverary, maybe in the police district of Shoalhaven, near the parish of Yalwal, but the birth place of John and Ellen’s first born child causes doubt insofar as the previously mentioned word Bigger is concerned. There is a town called Bigga and it is located about 80 kilometres north east of the present day towns of Gunnary and Boorowa. Bigga was originally a large property, but was not in the county of St. Vincent.
John and Ellen’s first child, Charles Meggett, was a cripple and eventually was admitted to the Liverpool Benevolent Asylum in 1864. Charles was born in 1838 at J. White’s, Canary Creek, west of County King. The birth record shows his father (John Meggett) as a labourer for J. White. (From 1826 onwards, a James and John White (brothers) were squatters on 10 square miles of land which later formed part of the parish of Gunnary and the present day town of Young). It is highly certain that the Canary Creek was actually Gunnary Creek. Pronounced as Gun-nary. (Nary as in Mary).
Ellen also had a daughter, Jane Meggett, born 13 December 1840 and registered at Goulburn.
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On the 13th August 1842, Ellen’s husband, John Meggett, died at Lumley. Records reveal that John and Ellen were then residing at Lumley (known as Lumley Park which was located near Bungonia and the landholders were Robert and Margaret Futter). The death certificate of 1842 officially shows John as age 30, but the age of 30 conflicts with his age 29 when he married 5 years previous in 1837. His birth year is probably c1808.
On 12 August 1843 at Bungonia, John’s widow (recorded as Ellen Maggitt), had a second marriage to a William Orme and he became stepfather of Ellen’s children (Jane and Charles). William Orme was also an ex convict and had been transported to Australia on the ship “Lady Nugent” arriving Sydney 9thApril 1835. He was born in Derby England circa 1805 and sentenced at Derby Petty Sessions on 1st November 1832 for stealing meat. Sentence was 7 years transportation as a convict to Australia.
The convict ship’s 1835 list of male convicts, has William Orme recorded as a shoemaker, could read and write and was married. He was a protestant, age 30, height 5’ 4” of ruddy complexion, brown eyes and chestnut hair. Cast outwards on right eye, scar over left eyebrow and back of left thumb. Four moles on right arm near the elbow. His wife did not accompany him to Australia. He was granted his Certificate of Freedom at Bungonia on 22nd May 1840.
William and Ellen had 8 children born from 1845 to 1861. All those children were probably born at Jacqua and their residence is on record as being Gayley Flat, Yarralaw. (The parish of Yarralaw is close to Jacqua and Bungonia). William Orme was recorded as a labourer and a shepherd and died at Yarralaw on 14th April 1863 at the age of 58. He was buried at Bungonia on 17th April 1863. After his death, Ellen suffered extreme poverty and destitution. Neighbours supported her in one way or another. Reverend Procter (of Bungonia) and his wife Margaret, took in one of the children and a neighbour took in another. Ellen’s first child, Charles Meggitt (who was a cripple) was admitted to the benevolent asylum at Randwick and her youngest son, Richard Orme (age 8), was admitted to The Orphans School at Parramatta. Those instances were all during 1864.
Details of Ellen’s 2 known children of the 1st marriage, plus the 8 children from 2nd marriage, are:-
Charles Meggett – born at Gunnary – 19 July 1838
Jane Meggett - born at Goulburn – 13 December 1840
William Orme - born at Bungonia (probably Jacqua) in 1845
Mary Ann Orme - born at Bungonia (probably Jacqua) in 1847
Hannah Orme - born at Jacqua in June 1849
Martha Orme - born at Jacqua – 18 October 1850
Agnes Orme - born at Jacqua – 12 June 1854
Richard Orme - registered Goulburn (probably born at Jacqua) 12 July 1856
Emma Orme - born at Jacqua – 13 January 1859
Frances Orme - born at Jacqua – 2 August 1861
There are other references relating to Ellen Orme. In 1877 at Willeroo, a Mrs. Ellen Homes was a witness at the birth of Martha Helena Davis. Martha Helena’s mother was Martha Davis nee Orme who was commonly known as Martha Holmes as early as 1866). Also in 1877, two other children of Ellen (Richard and Frances) were also recorded at Willeroo. It is highly certain that Mrs. Ellen Homes was our Ellen Orme. Ellen’s 2nd husband (William Orme) had died in 1863. Ellen had most likely remarried again or assumed the Holmes surname of a de-facto husband. When some of Ellen Orme’s children married, they were using the surname of Holmes. (In 1841, a Robert Holmes was recorded as the owner and resident of Jerrara, a large property along the northern bank of the Bungonia Creek). After 1864, Ellen Orme and her children were possibly looked after by Robert Holmes and this could explain the reason why Ellen and some of her children adopted the Holmes surname). Ellen’s daughter (Martha Davis nee Orme) had a 2nd marriage in 1899 and the marriage record shows her mother’s name as Helen Walker and deceased. Cannot locate any records showing a marriage of Ellen Orme, Meggett (or similar) to a Holmes or Walker .
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Ellen died sometime between 1877 to 1899. Cannot locate any death records of an Ellen Orme/Meggett (or similar). There are several death records of an Ellen Walker and a Helen Walker, but due to not knowing Ellen’s parent’s names, it cannot be ascertained which death record could, or would be appropriate. The 1828 census, reveals a William Peters in the service of a Mr. Walker in the Bungonia area. Whether William Peters was a father or brother of Ellen, is unknown. Whether the above Mr. Walker has any relevance to Ellen Orme (later known as Ellen Holmes and then Helen Walker), is also unknown. In 1880, an Ellen Holmes (aged 59) died at Sydney. Parents names recorded as unknown. It is possible this person could be our Ellen Peters.
When Ellen Orme’s son, William Orme (junior), married in 1870, his surname is shown as Horn. His six children were recorded as either Horn or as Horm, but when each child married, every surname is recorded as Holmes and they married at Cowra, Orange, 1 at Mudgee in 1893 and 1 at Wattle Flat in 1894. Wattle Flat is between Bathurst and Mudgee. About the year 1900, at least 3 of those families moved further north to the Tenterfield and Glen Innes areas.
William Orme’s sister (Martha Orme) had married in 1869 and surname is shown as “Orme aka Holmes” (aka is a term for “also known as”). In 1866, Martha was already using the Holmes surname. The surname of Holmes was also used by several other family members. Except for William Orme senior and John Meggett, documents uncovered for the above, indicate that each person was illiterate.
Jane Meggett was recorded as Maggot or Maggitt and when she married in 1857, she had apparently adopted the Orme surname of her stepfather, but the record was transcribed as Jane Arms. The spelling of Orme was recorded in many variations, i.e. Arme, Arms, Horm, Horn, Ormes, Holmes, etc. The spelling variations were probably due to combinations of illiteracy, transcription and adoptions.
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Hi there,
Welcome knows a lot to RChat. It is a great place for family history searchings.
Many of the rural marriages from 1856 to 1895 that NSW BDM has on their marriage register are basically only summaries of the full registration. So NSW BDM's records often do not include the ages of the bride or groom, and/or their places of birth, and/or the names of their parents etc. However, the information was usually recorded by the clergy on the parish register. NSW BDM's own website acknowledges these blanks on their records.
Here's a thread I did up some time ago re how to overcome these elusive blanks. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
I am sure that the expression 'native born' is not, of itself, indicating any ethnicity. I am sure that during Macquarie's era, and right throughout the 19th century, and throughout the first few decades of the 20th century, 'native born' on official NSW records is simply stating that the person is born in the colony/ies (NSW, VDL/Tas, WA, SA, Vic, Qld) and it can be read as "B.C. ..... Born in the Colony. Some of my ancestors arrived late 18th Century and those who were born here were noted as 'native born' even in the 1790s. Apart from the word "Native" (as opposed to native born) another of the words used by officials during the penal era to 'label' Aboriginal persons was the ugly word 'savages' http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/626265 Sydney Gazette 17 June 1804.
"Native born" (regardless of ethnicity) simply meant they were automatically British Subjects, by virtue of their native place.
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
Welcome knows a lot to RChat. It is a great place for family history searchings.
Many of the rural marriages from 1856 to 1895 that NSW BDM has on their marriage register are basically only summaries of the full registration. So NSW BDM's records often do not include the ages of the bride or groom, and/or their places of birth, and/or the names of their parents etc. However, the information was usually recorded by the clergy on the parish register. NSW BDM's own website acknowledges these blanks on their records.
Here's a thread I did up some time ago re how to overcome these elusive blanks. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
<snip>
Cheers, JM
A lovely lady from one of the Canberra family research groups went and viewed the Parish Register and unfortunately, the parents of both William, Martha and their witnesses (who were married on the same day) are blank.
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Hi there,
Do you know which register they viewed? Do you know the clergyman's details and denomination? C of E used two parish registers concurrently, one as a back up of the other. One stored in fireproof safe/room and one stored often within the Manse.... Of course not all the registers are extant, but they were not meant to be lost or misplaced.
I am confuddled, if the witnesses were not named, how do you know they were married same day...
A lovely lady from one of the Canberra family research groups went and viewed the Parish Register and unfortunately, the parents of both William, Martha and their witnesses (who were married on the same day) are blank.
ADD
I have seen one NSW BDM marriage certificate where it took NSW BDM to inspect FIVE Church registers to obtain all the elusive details to complete the reconciliation....
Cheers, JM
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Sorry poor wording on my part. The parents of William, Martha and the parents of the witnesses were left blank.
All I know is she viewed the Parish Register for the Collector area. So do I need to look elsewhere?
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Hi there,
From the marriage certificate, can you please confirm the denomination and the clergyman's name. If C of E, the ecclesiastical law required (and still does) that two parish registers are filled out for each ceremony, and that these two registers are stored separately, and fireproofed.
From 1 March 1856, NSW marriages conducted by clergy were in fact TWO ceremonies. The civil one, and the religious one. So if C of E, there's three registers at least. Two church and one civil. When the church ones were full, they were then forwarded to the Diocese for their safekeeping.
The clergy sent summaries to NSW BDM based on the scant details recorded in the civil register, until the decades long dispute was resolved.
From NSW BDM website, http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/registry-records.aspx
In 1912 ......................
The Registry took this opportunity to request access to the 1856 to 1895 church marriages registers. Some Registry marriage records from these years recorded only the details pertaining to the parties to the marriage. Details of the parents had been left blank although they appeared in the Church registers. These registrations were amended and a notation made in the margin to record the circumstances of the amendment.
The task of reconciling the Early Church Records and amending the marriage registrations was never finalised. The Registry's records from these years are not complete and it can be worthwhile for genealogists to contact the relevant church to find details missing from a marriage certificate or in the case of a birth, a baptism record where there is no corresponding civil registration.
I am happy to go through my own resources to see if I have noted where any of the Collector registers are currently/recently located. Some may have more detailed information that others. I have seen where up to FIVE registers were needed to be reconciled before all the details were found.
Cheers, JM
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Thank you very much JM.
They were married under the rites of the Church of England by Robert Earl so there is hope yet we may find something more. :)
I would really appreciate it if you could look through your records etc, when you have time, and let me know what you find.
I can message you a copy of the Marriage Certificate if you like. :)
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Thank you very much JM.
They were married under the rites of the Church of England by Robert Earl so there is hope yet we may find something more. :)
I would really appreciate it if you could look through your records etc, when you have time, and let me know what you find.
I can message you a copy of the Marriage Certificate if you like. :)
:) :)
Looks like the Reverend was Robert Thomas EARL, http://anglicanhistory.org/aus/cci/index.pdf I would expect the originals of the parish registers to be with the Goulburn Canberra Diocese
The National Library in Canberra has film/manuscript/indexes/ for much of the Diocese.
http://tinyurl.com/joonv39
Fingers crossed there’s an RChatter handy to Canberra who can go to the NLA and check out their resources, if not, perhaps you may find some assistance here: http://www.nla.gov.au/blogs/behind-the-scenes/2014/05/07/ask-a-librarian-now-virtually-everywhere
I don’t have Rev R T Earl’s registers noted in my own resources, sorry. If the NLA resource does not list the witnesses (even if all the other blanks are still blank) then there’s something amiss, and if it were my family I would then consider approaching the Diocese offices, providing them with copy of the NSW BDM issued mc. (If it is an official transcription rather than the real deal cert, have you checked that it was ordered as a FULL transcription …. Very very unusual not to include witnesses even when there are those elusive blanks), but it is possible to order PARTIAL transcription …..
Cheers, JM
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The lady from the Canberra family history center went to the National Library and checked and said that there are no parents' details for the Davis's or parents' of the witnesses who were married on the same day (witnesses names are on the MC). She also said that there were two other couples married in the church on the same day and they had full entries in the Register!
I also found a photocopy on ancestry.com.au of what looks to be the entry in the Parish Register with those details missing.
I'm not sure what to do now. Should I contact the Goulburn Diocese?
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Information on some place names not found on maps. part 1
Many towns, places and parishes are mentioned on the various pages of this family history book, but firstly, a brief, basic outline should be given as to how such places originated.
Australia is divided into states or territories. Each state is then divided into large areas called counties and each county is then divided into parishes. The name of a parish was usually derived from local aboriginal words. Properties within a parish, were originally allocated as land grants by the government on the proviso that such properties became commercial farms and/or livestock breeding stations, etc. Those properties varied from small (maybe 30 acres) to very large (1000’s of acres). Prosperous landowners often purchased other surrounding properties (you will read later on, Molonglo and Carwoola were prime examples). To put a stop to such expansion, the government created a new land act during the 1880’s, which then restricted an individual’s land ownership to 300 acres. Each main community area would eventually need a Post Office, Shops, Police Station, School, etc. An area of land would then be resumed/purchased by the government, surveyed and subdivided residential land eventually sold, thus forming a village or town.
Some property names such as Carwoola, Willeroo, Primrose Valley, Muttbilly, Lumley, Currawong, Yarralaw, Inverary and Molonglo are usually not printed or mentioned on maps. They were usually parish names, or large multi-acre grazing properties/homesteads or grain food properties, commercially breeding cattle, sheep and/or horses or wheat/grain growing. Some of the properties had servant’s huts, stone cottages and large cultivated areas, growing vegetables, fruits, etc. Some properties eventually had a town built on them. Normally, the name of the town was the same as the parish name (for example – Bungonia, Goulburn, Nowra, Gundaroo, Menanglo, Cassawary and a slight exception which was originally called Quinbean, now known as Queanbeyan).
A large property located between Sutton Forest and Marulan, was called Bumballa. It was also known as Bombarlow and Bumbollaway. Those variations were probably due to pronunciation and illiteracy. Bumballa was quite often mistaken for Bombala (located near Cooma NSW). The property name of Bumballa was the same as the parish name.
Inverary Park was originally a large farm property and homestead, mainly growing wheat and had a flourmill on the property and incorporated several workers and their families. Lumley Park was another large homestead property located near Inverary Park. Those two properties were established in the 1820’s and located in the parish of Inverary. Workers and their families usually lived on such properties and those original workers would normally comprise mixed groups of bonded servants, assigned convicts, aboriginals or ex-convicts.
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Information on place names part 2
The nearby village of Bungonia was a stopover freight point located on the original main road from Sydney to Queanbeyan. The main road changed when a more direct road was built from Sutton Forest to Marulan. Bungonia then became a more secluded area, located approximately 20 kilometres away from the new main road.
It was common practice for the owners of large grazing properties to lease out segments of those properties. Those segments were known as paddocks and each paddock would comprise several acres and sometimes had a shepherd’s hut built on it. The shepherd’s wife and/or older children were quite often employed by the homestead as domestic servants, labourers, etc. Molonglo and Willeroo were such properties. Another large property, Currawong, adjoined Willeroo. Both of those properties were owned by the Cooper families.
Molonglo was originally a 100 acre property granted in 1824 to Owen Bowen, a former convict. The property was situated approximately 30 kilometres south-east of Lake George and Bungendore. By 1828, the property size had increased to 500 acres. By 1840, Molonglo had become famous for breeding some of the finest racehorses in the colonies. In 1861, gold was discovered on the property and it was opened up for diggers to take out leases.
Molonglo was sold in 1861 to a nearby property owner and absorbed into that property which was known as Carwoola. In 1862, another adjacent property located in Primrose Valley was absorbed into Carwoola. It had now increased to 25,000 acres. A Georgian style mansion was built and even included a village for the employees with houses, store, blacksmith and a church. Carwoola eventually increased to 55,000 acres in size.
Quite often, the owner or manager of such properties, kept records of births, deaths and marriages, etc. Some properties (stations) had populations equivalent to small villages.
The above information explains why a descendant’s occupation can be listed on one document as a shepherd, a labourer on another, or miner on yet another. Many of our own Davis and related families were born on and employed at such properties. Some took out leases of their own. Others became gold miners, timber cutters and labourers on railway line constructions. Another (James Davis) was given a government land grant located near Captain’s Flat.
The descendants of our original ancestors in Australia, are now located all over the southern parts of NSW, the south coast to VIC, many suburbs of Sydney, mid and far north coast of NSW, stretching out as far west as Nyngan and Bourke, and also located in areas around Tenterfield, Inverell, Armidale regions, southern QLD, NT and WA. Those areas are the ones that have been uncovered by research. There will definitely be many others, further afield. All place names and towns mentioned in these pages, are all located within NSW, unless shown otherwise.
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OTHER INFORMATION AND NOTES page 1
It is most certain that our Davis and Mundy related ancestors were originally in the Robertson, Sutton Forest, Bong Bong, Burrawang, Bowral, Berrima and Mittagong areas. There are too many instances of same surname related births, deaths and marriages registered within those areas, especially at Bong Bong and Sutton Forest. There are instances of one or two day journeys being made from other locations, even from Yass, despite church facilities being in place at those other locations. This indicates that our Davis related family roots were probably long established and widely spread within the above mentioned areas. In 1828, a James Davis (life sentence convict) age 30, was a shepherd indentured to the McArthur family at “Arthursleigh” Sutton Forest. Our ancestor, William Davis, was aboriginal and was born between 1837 and 1840 at either Mittagong or Burrawang (both close to Sutton Forest and Bong Bong). That James Davis could possibly be the father of our William Davis.
A child named Henry Lucas was christened at Bong Bong in 1837. Parents were Samuel Lucas and Susan Davis, both of Inverary. Why travel from Inverary? Reason probably due to Susan’s siblings and family members (Davis) probably resided in areas near Bong Bong. Susan Davis was possibly an aunt or related to our William Davis. In 1828, there was a Martha Davis, age 20, a servant in the Futter family homestead called “Lumley Park”. Martha was a convict arriving Australia in 1828 and had been sentenced to 7 years. Lumley is very close to Inverary.
Also in 1837, a William Clee Tomkins (aboriginal) of Yass married an Elizabeth Davis at Bong Bong. Both in the service of I. Waite of Yass (property owner). Abode shown as Maneira (probably a large property name or possibly meant to be Monaro). Elizabeth was a daughter of a George and Mary Davis. Probable relatives of our William Davis. Why travel from Yass to Bong Bong? Could the reason be Elizabeth Davis’ parents and relatives probably all resided in areas surrounding Bong Bong? Elizabeth Davis was most likely family related to Susan Davis mentioned above. Several members of the Waite family (mentioned above), lived in the Berrima and Mittagong areas (near Bong Bong). Myra Waite of Mittagong, signed as a witness at the marriage of our other ancestors, William Munday to Ellen Neenan at Sutton Forest in 1843. Sutton Forest is also near Bong Bong. In 1828, a John Waite was a stock and land owner at Bong Bong.
Another early ancestor, Jane Meggett (adopted name Orme, but recorded as Arms), married a James Henry at Goulburn in 1857. An Elizabeth Jane Henry died at Robertson in 1894 and parents were James and Jane Graham. Could Elizabeth Jane
Henry be a daughter in law of Jane Meggett? Jane’s mother (Ellen Peters) married John Meggett at Bong Bong in 1837 (Bong Bong is very close to Robertson). In 1875 at Braidwood, a Jane Henry married a James Abernethy. They had 6 children (1876 – 1887) and all born in the Shoalhaven area (Nowra). Could she be our Jane Meggett having a 2nd marriage? In February 2003, a Sydney Morning Herald newspaper had a photograph of the disgraced detective, Roger Rogerson with an underworld mate whose name was Graham “Abo” Henry. Possibly a descendant of Jane Henry (nee Meggett) or her husband’s relatives.
Jane Meggett’s mother was Ellen Peters (married names of Meggett and then Orme) but have not been able to find a death record for Ellen. Ellen was also the mother of Martha Orme/Holmes who married our William Davis. In 1893, an Ellen Holmes died at Cassilis (north of Mudgee) and parent’s names recorded as unknown. That Ellen was born c1839 and was age 54 when she died. She was probably related to our Ellen Orme. It is known that Ellen Orme died prior to 1899. One of Ellen Orme’s daughters had a 2nd marriage in 1899 – but mother’s name was shown as Helen Walker and deceased.
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OTHER INFO AND NOTES page 2
Another of Ellen’s daughters was Martha, but her birth was recorded as “Orme (Holmes)”. Ellen’s eldest son (William Orme - jnr) had six children. Their surnames were recorded as either Horn or Horm, but when those children married, their surnames were recorded as Holmes. One of them married at Mudgee in 1893 and another at Wattle Flat in 1894. (Wattle Flat is south of Mudgee). Some of our Orme families then moved further north to the Tenterfield/Inverell districts. Tenterfield is located about 20 kilometres south of the Queensland border.
Page 79 lists Martha Jane Munday as a daughter of Ellen Neenan (main family link). Martha was born in 1844 at Mittagong. She died at Texas QLD in 1915. Texas is very close to the QLD/NSW border, not far from Tenterfield.
A Florence Benson is mentioned on page 45. Her family moved from Captain’s Flat to the Tenterfield district. Florence married at Inverell in 1905. On page 11, there is reference to a Henry Penhall who was employed/residing at Willeroo homestead in 1877. William Davis and Martha Orme (Holmes) were also employees living at Willeroo since at least 1869 to about 1880. William married Martha in 1869. Henry Penhall moved to Tenterfield and married there in 1883. His wife Sarah gave birth to 2 children there, and then a 3rd at Cooma in 1889 who died at Kiama in 1891. In 1887, some of the Davis family were also recorded at Cooma. During 1891, William and Martha Davis, plus most of their children and grandchildren, also moved to Kiama. By 1914, three of those children (and their families) plus the Penhall family had moved to Sydney.
Some of the distances travelled by family members and acquaintances, were quite considerable. All the travels would probably have been by horse drawn vehicles, rail and/or foot. (For example : Willeroo to Tenterfield is approximately 1000 kilometres. Then return south to Cooma is approximately another 1200 kilometres). Possibly the journeys were made by ship to the nearest port or by rail, then the land journey.
There are many references to the Tenterfield and surrounding areas and assumedly, many descendants of our early ancestors are residing in those same areas.
The following persons were recorded in an 1828 Census conducted in NSW. The census was mainly intended as a record of the exact whereabouts of convicts on ticket of leave, bonded, early release or free by servitude, etc. It did not normally include aboriginals.
James DAVIS, age 30, sentence life, arrived 1818 on ship “Shipley”, bonded as a government servant (shepherd) to Mr. McArthur at “Arthursleigh” Sutton Forest.
John DAVIS, age 19, born in colony, occupation stockkeeper, employed by John Larkham at Sutton Forest.
Daniel DAVIS, age 21, sentence life, arrived 1828, government servant (hutkeeper) to William Cowper of Bombay (near Braidwood).
On page 40, there is a reference to Ada Ann Davis being born at Mount Pleasant in 1869 and her father’s name shown as John William Davis. There was a Mount Pleasant located near Yass, another near Willeroo and another near Gerringong. Listed in the 1872 Post Office Directory for Yass are 5 persons with surname of Davis.
George DAVIS, a farmer at Yass River
James DAVIS, innkeeper at Mundoonan via Yass
John DAVIS, farmer --- Yass
Noah DAVIS , ---- Mount Pleasant via Yass
William DAVIS, farmer at Lutton via Yass
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NOTES…..Photos of William and Martha’s daughters, Ada, Martha and Annie, reveal dark skin and aboriginal features. An elderly descendant (in 2002) recalls Frances Ellen Davis (another of William’s daughters) was also dark skinned and had aboriginal features. Those same features are also evident in a c1925 photo of Ada’s daughter Ethel Maude Rogers. (In contrast, Ada’s mother (Martha Orme) had her father’s English features and Ada’s 1st husband (Martin Rogers) was born in England). Dates, places, descriptions, photos and other information, collectively indicate that the aboriginal, William Davis, who died at Berry on 27 November 1892, was Martha Davis’ husband.
Copies of various documents and certificates, show many variations insofar as dates,places and names are concerned. Some errors could be due to illiteracy. The variations would normally indicate more than one William Davis involved, or maybe unofficial adoptions, but all the above children were definitely raised by Martha.
William’s marriage certificate of 1869, states he was born at Mittagong in 1837.
A son’s birth certificate 1885, states William Davis as age 57, born at Mittagong 1837.
William’s death at Berry 1892, states age 50, born at Burrawang. (i.e. born 1842).
A daughter’s certificate 1890, father William Davis age 44, born Sydney. (i.e. 1846).
A daughter’s birth certificate 1869, states father’s name is John William Davis.
A daughter’s baptism certificate 1873, states her father as William George Davis.
A daughter’s birth in Dec. 1877 father William Davis age 40 born Sydney. (i.e. 1837).
The William Davis at Braidwood Gaol c1890, is shown as age 45. (i.e. born c1845).
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Land map of Currawong 1895, etc
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photo Martha Orme/Davis/Howard with some of the Maher family c1920
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Many of you researchers have probably experienced all the setbacks, etc. that I have experienced.
There are some instances where facts have been uncovered by me, which have previously been unknown. One of those facts was the family surname change from Orme to Holmes. Other reseachers had encountered a brick wall trying to uncover older records.
The Berrima District Family History Society helped me with several items and I will forever be indebted to their knowledge and assistance. Several years ago, I forwarded printed and CD showing all the known details and photographs etc relative to my family history. Those records are in their archives. Since then there has been several small snippets added into my own records, but have not sent them to the Society as yet.
I've just been in touch with the Berrima District Family History Society and they say they do not have a copy of this CD, unfortunately.
I will message you in the hope that we can sort out something. :)
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Hi there,
From the NSW BDM registration only for the death of William DAVIS, #1898/2906, registered Berry District, can you please type up the following details : (sometimes fresh eyes spot a tiny clue ... it only takes a tiny clue to eat away at the mortar in a family history brickwall :) )
Date and place of death (I think date would be 27 November 1892)
Name and occupation
Sex and age
Cause of Death
Duration of last illness
Medical attendant
When he last saw deceased
Name and occupation of father
Name and maiden surname of mother
Informant and relationship to deceased
When and where buried
Name of Undertaker
Name and religion of Minister
Names of witnesses of burial
Where born
How long in the Australasian Colonies
Place of marriage
Age at marriage
To whom married
Details of Children of Marriage (names and chronological order of the living, and gender of the deceased)
Sudden deaths often required an inquest, or at least a Police Magistrate’s report to a Coroner. If there’s any indication on the certificate that an inquiry was held, have you searched for the outcome of that inquiry….
Re the photo
I am wondering if the sepia colouring in the 1920s photographs influences the suggestion of Aboriginal heritage. Perhaps DNA testing may be the way to go.
Re Contacting the Diocese,
Yes, if you have exhausted all the other tips, then perhaps a snail mail letter enclosing photocopy of the NSW BDM document, asking for their suggestions may be the way to go (explaining where you have already tried, and noting the missing witnesses .... to me that is significant, as though the Rev missed recording these on at least one register .... :-\ ). Remember of course that at this time of the year, it is Advent and the volunteers may be involved in current programs within the parish and within their own home life too.
Cheers, JM
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Thanks JM. I have a transcript of his death registration and there are a lot of blanks:
Date and place of death 27 November 1892
Name William Davis
Rank or Profession Aboriginal
Sex and age Male, 50 years
Cause of Death Accidentally killed by falling of (sic) a load of hay
Duration of last illness 1 day
Certification Dr J P Brereton
When he last saw deceased 26 November 1892
Name and occupation of father not know
Name and maiden surname of mother no entry
Informant and relationship to deceased Richard Morris, police constable, Berry
Registration Henry Taylor, 30 November 1892, Berry
When and where buried 28 November 1892, Berry
Name of Undertaker Peter Ettinghausen
Name and religion of Minister no entry
Names of witnesses of burial William Blake and John Barber
Where born Burrawang, NSW
How long in the Australasian Colonies Aboriginal
Place of marriage no entry
Age at marriage no entry
To whom married no entry
Details of Children of Marriage no entry
The transcription agent has written on the bottom: More information about this death could be gleaned from the police gazette or newspapers. I've searched and not been able to find anything.
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Hi there,
From the NSW BDM registration only for the death of William DAVIS, #1898/2906, registered Berry District, can you please type up the following details : (sometimes fresh eyes spot a tiny clue ... it only takes a tiny clue to eat away at the mortar in a family history brickwall :) )
The certificate is #1892/2906 - is that what you meant?
Re the photo
I am wondering if the sepia colouring in the 1920s photographs influences the suggestion of Aboriginal heritage. Perhaps DNA testing may be the way to go.
There are a few people still living that remember their grandparents having dark skin colouring. In fact, my mother exclaimed when I told her about the possible Aboriginal heritage - that's why my grandmother had such dark skin!
Re Contacting the Diocese,
Yes, if you have exhausted all the other tips, then perhaps a snail mail letter enclosing photocopy of the NSW BDM document, asking for their suggestions may be the way to go (explaining where you have already tried, and noting the missing witnesses .... to me that is significant, as though the Rev missed recording these on at least one register .... :-\ ). Remember of course that at this time of the year, it is Advent and the volunteers may be involved in current programs within the parish and within their own home life too.
I will write to them but perhaps not until after Christmas, when all has settled. Hopefully something will come up in the mean time and I won't have to contact them. :)
Cheers, JM
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Many thanks, :)
yes, best to wait until New Year to seek out the register.
I will see what I can find from the info on that dc. :)
The informant as a police constable at Berry would be the stumbling block to the lack of family history info. Between the policeman and the undertaker, no-one mentions the cemetery. To me, that seems an oversight, and no mention of a Reverend...
Is it a real deal certificate, or perhaps could it be a partial transcription ..... Also if a real deal certificate, is it one issued this century or much much earlier .... :)
Even his age .... "50 years" becomes possible as a guess rather than a confirmed fact. I might have some Ettinghausen family papers from the era....
Cheers, JM
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Many thanks, :)
yes, best to wait until New Year to seek out the register.
I will see what I can find from the info on that dc. :)
Thank you!
The informant as a police constable at Berry would be the stumbling block to the lack of family history info. Between the policeman and the undertaker, no-one mentions the cemetery. To me, that seems an oversight, and no mention of a Reverend...
Is it a real deal certificate, or perhaps could it be a partial transcription ..... Also if a real deal certificate, is it one issued this century or much much earlier .... :)
Even his age .... "50 years" becomes possible as a guess rather than a confirmed fact. I might have some Ettinghausen family papers from the era....
It is a full transcript that I had done in June 2013 by Laurence Turtle who is an authorised transcription agent.
If you happen to find something it would be wonderful.
Cheers, JM
Thanks again for all your help.
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I have not found any mention of that falling load of hay in any of the digitised newspapers either....
http://www.cifhs.com/default.html apologies, I should have mentioned this link earlier.
Cheers, JM
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I've contacted the Berry Family History centre to see if they have anything on William and the accident. Fingers crossed!
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The story I was told - that the horse got startled, wagon lurched, William Davis fell off the wagon and he was fatally injured when a wheel went over him.
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Hi knows a lot.
I am an Aboriginal Woman but through a different lineage..
I've been advised to research the Davis's though as it's been suggested that theres Aboriginality through my Davis lineage as well..
I found your comments on this thread on a search on google & they have been very helpful..you seem fairly knowledgeable! although I understand everyones focus is William Davis.. But would you have any more information you could share on James Davis & Mary Mundy?
Thankyou
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ELLEN NEENAN (c1829 – 1873)
also known as ELLEN MUNDAY and ELLEN LYON
WILLIAM MUNDAY (c1808 – 1857)
THOMAS LYON (c1810 – 1895)
Ellen Neenan was born circa 1829. No record of the birth. Birth place is currently unknown, but probably in the St. Marys’ region, west of Parramatta. Ellen married William Munday at All Saints Church of England, Sutton Forest 2nd June 1843. Ellen could read and write, but William was illiterate. No consents given for that marriage. The marriage record does not reveal any of their parent’s names.
Witnesses at the marriage were John Wales and Mira Waite, both of Mittagong. (The Waite family owned property at Sutton Forest).
William Munday was from Somersetshire in England and arrived in Australia as a convict on the ship “Burell” 19th December 1830. He had been convicted for housebreaking and also had a previous gaol term of 3 months. On the 30th March 1828 at Taunton England, he was sentenced to transportation to Australia for life.
He was described as age 20, 5 feet 7 inches tall, ruddy complexion, brown hair, hazel/grey eyes, no education, protestant, blacksmith for 3 years. He had tattoos of a sailing ship on the upper part of body, anchor on lower part, anchor on right arm, the initials WMMMWM on left arm.
An 1837 NSW General Return of Convicts describes William Mundy in the service of Willmott Jasper of Berrima NSW. He was later granted his freedom and soon after, apparently enlisted in the NSW colonial army. He died 15 May 1857 at Goulburn hospital and was buried 17 May 1857 at Goulburn. On his death certificate it states that he was 45, married to Ellen Neeman. Upwards 20 years in NSW. Farmer – soldier – then nightwatchman.
Six known children to the marriage.
MARTHA MUNDAY born 14 July 1844 at Mittagong.
WILLIAM MUNDAY born 26 December 1846 at Bumbolloway.
JOHN MUNDAY born 19 March 1849 at Bombarlow.
JAMES MUNDAY born 14 November 1851at Bombarlow.
MARY MUNDAY born 2 August 1853 at Bombarlow.
ELLEN MUNDAY born 3 July 1855 at Bombala. (Probably meant to be Bumballa).
A research of land records does not reveal a property or parish called Bumbolloway. In 1822, a Mr. Jenkins and his family were the residents and land owners of a large property called Bumballa (in the county of Camden), which was located south of Sutton Forest. Old land maps reveal Bumballa parish joined onto the parish of Marulan in the county of Argyle. In the parish of Marulan, there was a large property called Bombarlow and in 1828, the landholder’s name was William Chisholm. William Munday probably was a labourer or farmer employed by William Chisholm.
Prior to 1857, all references to the above Munday family reveal them located in areas between Mittagong and Marulan. Research by Berrima Family History Society in 2004, revealed that Bumbolloway and Bombarlow were the same large property known as Bumballa.
Ellen Neenan (the widow of William Munday snr) was recorded as 39 years of age when she had a 2nd marriage to a Thomas Lyon at the C of E Queanbeyan 30th January 1868. Those marriage records show Ellen’s surname recorded as Mundy and her parent’s names were recorded as Denis Neenan (a sergeant) and Margaret Scully.
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MARY MUNDAY
(1853 – 1886)
Also known as MARY DAVIS
JAMES DAVIS
(c1841 – 1912)
Mary Munday was born at (assumedly) Bombala on 2nd August 1853 and baptised at Berrima 24 August 1853. Her place of birth was most likely a large property called Bumballa, located in the parish of Bumballa (south of Berrima) and it joined onto the parish of Marulan. Parent’s names were Ellen Neenan and William Munday (a labourer), both of Bombarlow (originally a portion of the property called Bumballa).
Mary Munday married James Davis on 31st July 1871 at Queanbeyan. Her surname was actually recorded as Mundy. At the time of her marriage, she was under 21 years of age and her usual place of residence was recorded as Bungendore. James Davis lived at Captain’s Flat and Primrose Valley near Carwoola. James had obtained a land grant from the government in 1876 and took up a selection of land at Molonglo, County of Murray, parish of Yarrow, section 13. This land was possibly located in Primrose Valley, adjoining the large property called Carwoola. (In 1861, Molonglo was purchased by the owner of Carwoola).
NSW state records show a James Davis as being a free immigrant, age 22, via ship “Hotspur” arriving Australia 1863. That would mean his birth year being 1841 or 1842. It is believed that this person is the James Davis mentioned above. A family member stated that he was actually born in Wales.
The 7 known children from the marriage were probably born at Molonglo/Carwoola.
William J DAVIS born in 1871. Registered at Queanbeyan.
Caroline DAVIS born in 1873. Registered at Queanbeyan.
Henry DAVIS born in 1875. Registered at Queanbeyan.
Edward DAVIS born in 1878. Registered at Queanbeyan.
Theresa Jane DAVIS born at Molonglo 31 August 1880. – MAIN LINK IN TREE
Thomas DAVIS born in 1881. Registered at Queanbeyan.
George DAVIS born in 1883. Registered at Queanbeyan.
Mary Davis died at Primrose Valley, Molonglo on 1 November 1886 aged 34 years. According to death certificate, her birth place was Bombala, her children listed as 5 males, 1 female living and 1 female deceased. Father shown as William Munday and her mother as Alice Leenon. Mary died from inflammation of the lungs and was buried at Molonglo 2nd November 1886.
James Davis died 4th December 1912 at Captain’s Flat. Cause of death was senile heart. He was buried in the Carwoola Cemetery at Molonglo on 5 December 1912. The death certificate states he was 71 years of age, born in England and married at Moss Vale at the age of 29. (According to actual marriage records, he was married at Queanbeyan Presbyterian Church in 1871). No parent’s names nor place of birth recorded on that marriage certificate. The informant for the death certificate was his son, Henry Davis.
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thanks so much!
I'll research those properties.
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I Know that it has been a long time since this thread has been active, but it seems to relate, so I am hopeful that I might be able to draw on the wisdom that is obviously here.
For many years I have been trying to locate the parents of William Henry Smith (1864-1912) married to Frances Ellen Davis (1871 - 1961), daughter of William Davis and Martha Orme. They were married by Thomas Druitt (CofE), supposedly in Cooma, though it may have been that Thomas Druitt was located in Cooma (according to BDM certificate) and the marriage was conducted by him elsewhere. The parents of William Smith were not on the BDM certificate. I have contacted the Diocesan offices (Canberra/Goulburn) archivist, and she was unable to find any record of the marriage in the Cooma marriage register.
I am now at a dead end entirely. His birth place is recorded on his children's birth certificates as Castlemaine. But I can find no record. Even help from the historical society there was unable to locate anything.
Their movements seem very similar to the movements of the Davises. So I am wondering if his family might have moved to the Queanbeyan area to labour on the railway.
Arthur Davis records William's fathers name as being William Henry Smith - Labourer, on Williams death certificate. But that is the only reference to parentage that I have been able to find anywhere.
Might anyone have come across anything in their research? Might someone have some insight into where I might be able to get information that might break my deadlock? I have been stuck at this hurdle for some time. And seeing as he is my Great grandfather, it is not as far back as I would like to go.
Kind regards, Richard Smith
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Just thought I would update here in case anyone has any further tips. I've heard back from an historian who very kindly (and much appreciated by me) went to the National Library and looked up the marriage details in the Parish register and this what she found:
I checked the parish registers of the Anglican Cnhurch Diocese of Canberra and Goulburn, 1839-1921, at the NLA today and found the marriage record for Davis-Holmes on 1 February 1869. Unfortunately, no parents’ names were provided. It is interesting that there were four marriage entries on the page, two of which gave the names of parents and two did not. The two that didn’t were for marriages conducted at the School House, Collector on the same day (1 February 1869).
I have some handwritten marriage documents for other marriages so I think I need to try and get a copy of these. Would the State Library help me with these, does anyone know?
Welcome to the best online forum for help eith family history.
1869 NSW C of E ... perhaps the clergy was on a circuit ... from the above quote it seems the marriage ceremony was at Collector. :)
Some thoughts re William and a search for his parentage ...
:) What info has been 'gleaned' from careful reading of his childrens' birth certs ... particularly when he was the informant ... where born/age ... occupation
:) have you sought access to the 'family sheets' for the C of E clergyman ... sometimes these are full of info (clergy"s cheat sheets... similar to those available to view NO CHARGE via RChats NSW resources page .... Christ Church Cathedral Newcastle ... flickr images....
:) have you looked for marriage announcement via Trove digitised newspapers .... sometimes the announcement appears several months after the actual ceremony.
:) C of E clergy were expected by Church law to maintain at least two registers and to store them separately from each other in fireproof safety. I wonder which register was photographed in the 1980s and where is the 'Other' one ... ??? ???
JM
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This is the marriage as recorded on the NSW BMD index.
5798/1887, registered at Cooma
William H SMITH Frances E DAVIS
BMD records only show where the registration took place which may not be the actual location of the event, rather it's the location of the registry office. I have seen a death registration done in Bega while the person actually died in North Sydney.
Monaro Pioneers site shows only the year, 1887 and the location as Cooma for the marriage of William and Frances, so no further information there. However William is recorded on that site as William Henry Reynold (with no 's') SMITH, b 24 October, 1865 at Daylesford, Victoria.
http://www.monaropioneers.com/TNG/getperson.php?personID=I373261&tree=MP
This site has quite a lot of information about the family. I think you have to register to access but it's free. Information always needs to be checked as some of it is submitted although it has good references to show where the information has been found.
If this is correct then this would be his birth entry on Victorian BMD
1865 #21649
William Henry Re SMITH
Parents: George, Eliza (Reynolds)
Place of birth: DAYL
You can download an image of the registry entry which would give informartion about his parents, their marriage etc.
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj
Judith
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Agh ::) thanks Judith .... 1887 agh ... well CofE two registers comments hold good ..... as 1887 still in that dispute era. Some CofE marriages needed up to 5 registers to obtain all the info for the 1912-1915 reconciliations attempt. Funding and loss of clerks to AIF (including to Base Records) ceased that effort with very few rural registers of any denomination reconciled.
I am only accessing RChat via my e-reader at present, so cannot provide live links but when I am back home I will go through some 19th century NSW electoral rolls.
To bring a wry smile to everyone reading this thread I share:
Yesterday I was speaking with a family friend who was very concerned. Her daughter is a school teacher in the NSW primary school system. This teacher had been given a 'soft warning' by a colleague for MIS-INFORMING a parent.
Read my words carefully. The teacher had explained that NSW is the abbreviation for New South Wales. The parent claims their local state member of the NSW parliament said it stands for
Newcastle
Sydney
Woolongong
The teacher explained to colleague but colleague is certain that NSW is for those three cities too.
21st century ... so I said : tell teacher to ask Google ... and guess what ....
New South Wales is still the answer.
Sorry for diversion but wow ...
JM
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Marriage of probable parents of William Henry SMITH
Victoria 1853 #3104
Elizabeth REYNOLDS George SMITH
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj
There is a public on-line tree with a picture of George SMITH, says he was born 1826, Warwickshire, England; died 17 August, 1919 at Underbool, Victoria. Elizabeth (nee REYNOLDS) was born in Cornwall, emigrated to Victoria 1849 and died in Horsham 1906. The marriage place is given as Horsham.
Please note, information from public trees should be verified!
Death notice for George SMITH d 17 August 1919 at Underbool, 'in his 96th year', mentions son William Henry.
Obit for Eliza, died 9 June, 1906 at Horsham
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/72821218
Another mention of her death
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/72821211
Family "Thank You" notice for Eliza
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4701994
Sale of Eliza's house by her estate
trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/72934963
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/72934797
TROVE has a number of advertisements re the sale of heer house and goods.
Eliza's will is digitised, but there is no mention of William Henry. Eliza's obituary cites 13 living children but only 2 daughters and one son are mentioned in the will.
https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/wills-and-probates
Judith
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Thank you for your replies. Very kind.
Frances is recorded as being born at Willaroo, although she apparently recounted that she was born at Captains Flat. So it does seem odd that she would be married at Cooma. So, yes, I agree that Rev Druitt must have been on a circuit. I just don't know how to access the register, even the duplicate one (other than having contacting the Diocesan office, which proved fruitless).
All the children's birth certificates record William's place of birth as Castlemaine.
Finally, I did pursue the William Henry Reynolds for some time. Though it became apparent that he married, lived and died in Vic and was a different person.
I did join the Manaro Pioneers, but could not really find anything related to William's parents on that site. I note in the information about William Davis that he worked for the railways. I had a theory that maybe the family moved from Vic to work on the railway too, but how would I find out whether or not this might be the case?
Quite frustrating being named Smith, they are everywhere!!
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Rick, back in the 1800s, you could probably find notice of railway employees' movements in the relevant State Gazette. Many of these are on CD, these days.
Also, some FHS produce indexes of this type of information. Might be worth googling 'railways employees' and then doing some cherry picking
Dawn M
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Chasing railway employees now. Thank you.
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Hi Rick,
I am sure you have endeavoured to explore all possible options in your search.
I want to make sure I am understanding where you now stand in this quest.
Is it correct you believe that the Monaro Pioneers site has made an error in their assertion that William Henry SMITH (married 1887), also had the given name REYNOLDS? This was mentioned by Judith above.
Is it correct you have full BMD information for the man William Henry Reynold SMITH?
I have not been able to locate anything conclusive about the man in Victoria, but admittedly, my searching has not been thorough ::)
In your opinion is it just an interesting coincidence that the birth time of your chap and that of William Henry Reynold SMITH are very similar and both born in the same region?
Just worth noting too......
The son informing on the death certificate of your William Henry SMITH may have had no real information about the parents of his father.
Daylesford and Castlemaine are about 35 kilometers apart and it is common to find people at that time held incorrect notions of their exact birth place.
Anyhow, it is certainly frustrating for you to be brought to a halt in your family history by this hurdle
Sue
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JM and Sue, there is a note on an Ancestry tree stating that William Henry Reynolds SMITH is not the William Henry SMITH who married Frances. The person posting states that the chap with Reynolds in his name is this fellow: William Henry Reynolds Smith born 24 October 1865 to George Smith and Eliza Reynolds. He married Christian Robson and died from TB in Henty NSW, 15 December 1909.
That marriage is shown on Vic BMDS
1887 #959
Christian ROBSON William Henry SMITH
His birth certificate is on Ancestry - he is the 7th child of George and Eliza.
I can't see the death in NSW, but an ancestry tree has an obit for him from the Walla Walla and Balldale News incorporating the Culcairn Shire Advertiser and The Henty Chonicle dated 1909. The tree appears well-researched.
Judith
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..........there is a note on an Ancestry tree stating that William Henry Reynolds SMITH is not the William Henry SMITH who married Frances. The person posting states that the chap with Reynolds in his name is this fellow: William Henry Reynolds Smith born 24 October 1865 to George Smith and Eliza Reynolds. He married Christian Robson and died from TB in Henty NSW, 15 December 1909.
I can't see the death in NSW..........,
Judith
Hmm....not recorded as William H
13202/1909 GERMANTON definitely near Henty
SMITH John H
but parents with correct first names
GEORGE & ELIZA
Essie
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Finally, I did pursue the William Henry Reynolds for some time. Though it became apparent that he married, lived and died in Vic and was a different person.
I was a bit tricked by his having supposedly died in Victoria.
Thanks Judith
Sue
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When you drill down the death index found by Essie is on the correct date - 15/12/1909. I suppose Holbrook (Germanton) was the nearest registry.
13202/1909 GERMANTON definitely near Henty
SMITH John H
but parents with correct first names
GEORGE & ELIZA
Curioser and curioser, but may just be a co-incidence
Henty cemetery has no burial record matching W H R SMITH but has this burial record:
Herbert William SMITH, died 1/12/1909
Grave site: Meth, Row A, Plot 17 Christian SMITH (wife of W H R SMITH) is buried in Plot 16.
I can't see a death index entry matching this one!
NOthing to do with the original query though!!
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Thanks everyone. I was actually contacted by a relative of W H R Smith to tell me "He is not your William Henry Smith!" They seemed to have lots of photos and details on Ancestry, with wife etc.
And at times when my Pop and brothers were being born in Yalwal, W H R Smith was getting busy down south in Vic. So I had to move on.
Frances was under 21 when they married. I often wonder whether, at their marriage, the first record I can find of his DOB, he lied about his age, maybe informing that he was younger than he actually was. (Having died at only 48, which seems young).
Arthur Davis is recorded as the informant on his BDM death certificate, and listed in the death certificate is that his fathers name was also William Henry Smith, a miner. Who would know if this was accurate or not. He is buried in a unmarked grave in Wollongong Cementary. His age at death is listed as 48 which is consistent with an 1864 birth year.
When in Yalwal he is listed as a miner. Would there be records about miners at Yalwal that could help give me more information?
Thank you again.
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Hello I am a newbie and connected to William Davis and Martha Orme threw my uncle, Just wondering if other members are related and living in Australia.
Thanks
Roccos
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jemappelle How are you connected to the Davis Family ?
I am doing research for William,s Great grand daughter.
Thanks
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Hello I am researching for my grand mother, Ada Davis Grand Daughter. Reaching out looking to find any photos of the Davis family and any documents related to Willam & Martha's family.
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Hi there 'knows a lot'! I am attempting to trace my family tree and have so many questions regarding Ellen Peters, William Orme, Ada Ann Davis, William Davis etc.
I am a direct descendant of Ellen Peters and William Orme. And if my tree is correct -
Ellen Peters (mixed aboriginal) and William Orme (convict) had a daughter Martha Orme (my 4x great grandmother).
Martha married William Davis (also partially aboriginal) they had a daughter Ada Ann Davis (my 3x great grandmother).
Ada married James Goodwin and had a daughter called Ruby Goodwin (my great great grandmother).
Ruby married George Woods and had a son Arthur Woods (my great grandfather).
Arthur Woods married Nellie Faulks and had my grandmother.
Please, please message me!! I would really like to know more details.
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Hello,
A relative of mine only got so far with this research, and according to their findings, mentions William George Davis as an Aboriginal, and Martha Orme as half Aboriginal. Does anyone have any further lineage or information regarding this, and of course, who their parents were?
Below is my family history, so far.
My Great Grandmother was Martha Maude Ethel Rogers. ("Maude" as she preferred) born 31/12/1895 in Nowra.
Her mother, my G.G grandmother was Ada Ann Rogers - nee Davis, born30/10/1869 in Goulburn.
Her mother, my G.G.G grandmother was Martha Davis - nee Orme, born 18/10/1850 at Jaqua Creek, Bungonia N.S.W, who was married to William George Davis in the school house on the 1/2/1869 at Willaroo N.S.W.
Any relatives on here?
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I have a great photo of Bill , Maude , & Arthur Rogers , children of Ada Davis
My first post here..
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We have been searching for the Davis family William and Martha are my ggg grand parents we did not know we had any Davis please contact me.
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Hi everyone who is looking for information on Martha Davis and William Morgan.
Martha is my dads grandmother . his name is Raymond Victor Morgan(deceased), He has 2 daughters Vickie Irene and Karen Ann thought I would post to see if anyone is interested in me trying to clarify the Morgan side. My dad has retraced his family tree to before the first fleet