RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: brigidmac on Monday 13 October 14 19:10 BST (UK)
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George Jacob Fellman. b.1870 left Russia in 1891 + went from Manchester to Liverpool where he fathered my nana .He was in Scotland in 1906 + spent the rest of his life travelling around Wales til his death in 1924 .
It's been a real detective hunt ;starting with nana's middle name which led to an affiliation order for maintenance payments .
His hospital admission records led us to discover that he was the 2nd of 12 siblings 2 of whom were dead .(I have database from russian latvia with their names ).
His sister Rebecca Bloch living in Scotland was listed as next of kin but I'd really like to find what happened to the other 8 siblings .....did they go to America ?
Rebecca's parents names were on her death certificate as lazurus Fellman +EdithLandsman
(Leizer-mendel Fellman + Gesa-Eida (on latvian database)
younger children may have had a different mother as she died in 1888 .
Does anyone have any connections to this family ?
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If you haven't already done so, a good way to make surname connections with other members is to enter your surname interests in the Surname Interests Table (SIT), and to check there whether others are researching these names.
This can be found at http://surname.rootschat.com/ , there is a link to it under "Your Tools" at the bottom of each Rootschat page.
The more people who enter their surnames, the more chance there will be of making a connection!
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Thanks manchester rambler just working out how to use this site , I've added names of some of my ancestors now .
Also found a site on devoted to Feldman/Fellman names so have listed all the ones I know of on there .
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I went on
www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk
baptisms
Henry Bloch born 1859 - baptised 1888 at St Phillip
Francis Ignatius Bloch b 1888 - bap 1888 at St Anthony - parents Henry Bloch and Ellen O'Connell
Henry Bloch and Ellen O'Connell were married in 1889 at St Phillip - a year after the birth/bap of Francis ...this looks like to me that Henry wasn`t Catholic and converted to Catholic to marry Ellen ...is Henry Bloch in your tree ??
the same registration for Rebecca Fellman to Benjamin Bloch - jun qtr 1896 in Prestwich also has Abraham LANDSMAN to Annie Cohen ....was Abraham Landsman some relation ??
Rachel Fellman death aged 27 in Prestwich dec qtr 1900 - looks like a sister of Rebecca ?
Nathan Fellman death aged 58 in Prestwich mar qtr 1916
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Thanks Garstonite; Benjamin Bloch in Scotland since 1890's m Rebbecca in mancs.children ;Geiss-Ada,dino,sarah,esther minnie,barnet+Rosie all born in Dundee
Am ruling out other Bloch's.
Why do think Rachel is Rebecca's sister ( sister-in law more likely aged 27 )? Can't find any Fellmans there on 1891+1901or 1911 census ; 1891 Mendel aged 40 is down as a female, boarder with George 20 "living on means"
Nathan could be an uncle but I'd need to know origins ,parents names . How do i see more details of the data you posted ??
There is a thread on GR regarding my ggfather's naturalisation + the info we have on these families so far.
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did George go by the name Jacob ? ...b 1875 Russia
www.familysearch.org
surname fellman
any event
lancashire
1870- 1910
england
lancashire
search ..............click ...if you need a hand PM me - or - any specific person ?
couldn`t find George in 1901 census - but found a Jacob ?..........and it`s Prestwich
realistically , I can`t see a Russian being named George in 1850`s Russia ?...do you think he Anglicised his name to sound more English ?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X9JF-TKY
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here 's a thread so you don't repeat work done so far
; http://www.GenesReunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1324681
(modified)
how do i pm you ?
Yuri is a typical version of George ...he was Jewish so would have a yiddish version of the name
found as Geo J in 1911 census ; death record just George .
The George Fellman you found is another one
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click on Garstonite where the green light is on
and you will see
send a message
did any of your Fellman family stay in Liverpool ?
the last record for Fellman on freebmd.org.uk is in Crosby ,Liverpool - a marriage in march qtr 1944
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Have come across a few examples of Jacob Fellman .a painter + a tailor.in news reports ,census etc one of them could be one of my great-grandfathers brother's but would need parents names to be sure ,or a more precise birthplace ; Jacobstadt(jekobpils) In Courland(Kurland) Russia now Latvia. fot it to be worth investigating .
I only know what happened to George Jacob + his sister Rebecca .He stayed in liverpool for a few years 1899-1901 at least .
there was another Fellman family in nearby Price St in the 1901 census samuel+ jane(sena) + 7 children but I didn't find any connection between them
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OK - so Sophia Fellman b 1906 Liverpool ?
you might try and find out who her father was ?...if it`s George Jacob - we know he was still in Liverpool in 1906
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He died unmarried if he did have any other children they would also have mother's surname only.
I know he was a travelling salesman already in 1906...we found a court case from Dundee he'd travelled from a big town in North England but may well have been already based in Wales . did you get my pm ?
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Yes - I got your PM and have replied - click on my messages on the brown strip where it says Home
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I have the 1911 census for the prestwich Jacob Fellman ( it's not very legible )
we ruled him out cos initially just looking for great gfather but he could be a brother of George Jacob.
some possible Fellman's on my other thread about passenger ship
rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=702300.msg5452971#msg5452971
The key to finding siblings names is find what happened to Mendel Fellman who was 40 married+ living on means with George jacob aged 20 single boarding with Jessie Brodie and daughters
Could Mendel be his mother as we 1st thought ?
I believe it to be his father named as Lazurus on sister Rebecca's death certificate
latvian data base has him as Leizer-Mendel and Mendel-Leizer
but why is there no sign of him/her in 1901 ,or deaths or transport ; ?
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If anyone is looking for Feldman/Fellman or comes across a connection to these families this is a good site
http://feldmanfamilytree.com/index.php
Though they don't seem to have any of the New York or Philedelphia ones found on this chat thread ;
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=702300.msg5452971#msg5452971
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Quite a trail!
I would agree entirely with you, that the 40-year-old Mendel Fellman lodging with George was his father.
Have you looked through the records on Jewishgen and the fabulous transcriptions by Christine Usdin?
These suggest that his Yiddish name was Leizer-Mendel son of Leib, but he was known as Mendel (the Yiddish form of Menachem). He and his father were recorded in the 1871 enlistment register for Jakobstadt; his father being Leib Yankel Fellman (i.e. Leib son of Yankel), b. c1824. Yankel is the Yiddish form of Jacob (Ya'acov in Hebrew).
Leib (pronounced libe), incidentally, is the Yiddish word for lion. It was the Yiddish 'nickname' given to boys/men who had the Hebrew name Yehuda. This practice is based in the biblical Jacob likening his son Yehuda to a young lion. Many Jewish records would report the double name Yehuda-Leib.
Christine Usdin's transcriptions include the birth registrations of nine of Leizer-Mendel's children between 1879 and 1891 (including two with his second wife, Sheina) and the deaths of two of his children.
I would speculate that the Yiddish name of your George was Gershon-Yankel.
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Thanks so much for that ; i had some of the information given as a free initial trial from a helpful lady called Tana running a find Russian ancestry site ;
but i didn't know if Gesa-eda was 1st wife or a child ; i think she must be the Edith named on her daughters scottish death cert
but couldn't afford to pay for full private research there are also ; Documents from Radusraksti are free to see but in Russian or Yiddish .
I couldn't afford to join jewishgen either . I'm on Genes Reunited at the moment
but thanks so so much for clearing that up . I'll see if I can find Leib Yankel and the names of his other children on search engine ;
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I've found Christine Usdin's translation of the birth of Shora fellman 1885 with father leizer-mendel Fellman and mother Gessa-Eida
and i saw the translation for Mottels death age 2 in 1884
but I can't then open pages for other years
There is probably a quicker way than looking for Fellman mendel refs 1 by 1 on a search engine is there a way to get on to the site
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Hi,
For some reason the links to different years on Christine's site do not work. But if you manually change the URL address, it is possible to view each year.
I have compiled the attached family tree from records on Christine's site and on Jewishgen. Incidentally, jewishgen is entirely free. You only have to register to get a user name and password.
Your family appear to have been the only Fellmans in Kurland.
Edith is simply a fictional Anglicised name for Gesa-Eida, who appears to have died on 20 Oct 1888 following the birth of a boy on 30 Sep 1888.
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If I understand correctly Nathan Fellman ( b1868 jacobstadt d Prestwich aged 58 1916)
was eldest son of Lazarus + Edith
others I have to look for descendnts of are ;
Mera b 1880, Bassa. b1882 sora ( Shora ) b1885
Lazurus's 2nd wife had Taube Fellman b1880 and khaya b 1891 in jacobstadt
Are these male or female names ?
David b 1886 m Khaya Kortin in 1911 and they had Jacob david fellman in Riga in 1912
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If this is correct
VII generationLEIBE YANKEL Fellman date unknown had
VI leibe yankel fellman b1824.
who had V Jankel leibe fellman b approx 1843 Riga (died 1904) whose son was IV mendel jankelb1867 OOPS Correction
another son V Lazarus(Leizer_mendel) b1851 whose 1st child was before 1870
which means they were all very young fathers ; aged only ?, 19,24, and 19 that's assuming all were first borns !
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Yes, that's right.
However, it is possibly premature to claim any certainty about Nathan's parentage. His age fits to be Mendel's and Gesa-Eida's child - Jewish couples in the Pale did often marry very young - and, therefore, George's older sibling.
I have also assumed that you have other corroborative evidence regarding Rebecca. Although, I see know that ancestry has her birth in 'Russian (Inbpa), Russia (Hobrow)' in 1872. I shall have to look into that.
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No I haven't got anything else about Nathan
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Rebecca could even be the elder sibling but her census ages but her marriage cert says age 19 in 1986.
1911 census has her as 40
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Taube (= dove) is a girl's name, as is Khaya/Chaya (derived from khayim = life)
An infant girl by the name of Taube Fellman was buried in Manchester's Crumpsall Jewish cemetery in Q4 1891.
Was this Mendel's baby daughter?
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Can't remember if there's a list you can see which shows parents names on death or if you have to send for certificates ;
Where was Mendel's wife + toddler Taube in 1891 if baby Khaya was born in april of 1891 in jacobstadt they must have travelled separately from Mendel(Lazurus) + son George .
George's hospital records say he had 8 siblings still living in 1920 which means either Sheina had another British born child or mistake on records .
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what is URL address + how do i change it manually ?
Taube Fellman's death is on FreeBMD register in Mancs .She/He is aged 0 so can't be ours but could be a more distant relative.
I've registered with jewishgen but am finding it hard to navigate
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The URL is the website address that you enter in the URL bar at the top of the browser.
The attached image is for one of Christine's pages. The URL address is:
usdine.free.fr/birthsjakobstadtseventyseven.html
If you place your cursor in the URL bar and manually edit the URL address to
usdine.free.fr/birthsjakobstadtseventyeight.html for example, you can navigate to the page for births in 1878.
The info re Taube Fellman's burial on the website of Manchester and District Council of Synagogues did not give an age. I should have checked. I wonder if 0 could also mean age unknown.
Now that you are registered with JG, you should join the Latvia Special Interest Group. Hover the cursor over the 'Research' button, then move down the menu to select SIGs.
Or try using this link directly http://www.jewishgen.org/Latvia/ (http://www.jewishgen.org/Latvia/)
Unfortunately, there is a 9-year gap (1868-76) in the extant birth records of Jakobstadt, so there could easily have been other children that we never know about.
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Thanks for such lovely clear instructions ; i think i have registered special interest in latvia I i certainly spent into the earl hours on these amazing pages looking for Fellman's+blochs on electoralrolls + enlistment register ; I thought it meant Enlistment to Army til I found Giese-Eda on there too .
re George-Jacobs siblings ; I have marriage death + 1901.1911 census for Rebecca
There is a big gap between Rebecca b1872 ? +Dvora 1879 which is surprising as the other children follow every couple of years .But G-J's hospital records clearly state 2nd of 12 children 2 dead and the names we know now add up to 11 . he would have given this info himself+ everything else on there is accurate.So it's just the eldest with a question mark ... could it have been the Jacob who keeps cropping up in England + not Nathan ; surely as eldest he would have had father's name as middle patrynim so Someone lazarus Fellman the family ;
rebecca's firstborns were named after their grandparents ; Elias Bloch + Geise -Ada from her maternal gma
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The fact that two wives were included in the enlistment list threw me too. If you click on the database title above the search results, you will be taken to an explanation of the database contents. Although originally established as a list eligible for conscription, its contents grew.
I agree entirely about the gap between Rebecca and Dvora, but unfortunately there are no extant birth records to help us fill that gap.
On the basis that neither Nathan nor Rachel occur in any other generations, I am rather doubtful that they were George's siblings. Jacob is a more likely candidate, but then we can only speculate about the origins of George's second name.
In the original records in Russian and Yiddish, all the names would have been in a patronymic form.
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we don't have any records with George jacob's original spelt 1st names
If Jacob or Nathan married in Prestwich or lancs his marrige records would give parents names . or if I find any children maybe their given names will reflect their ancestry ;
It's been suggested that the World war generations may have changed their surnames ..some Blochs became Blacks ...I wonder what Fellman became
ps does anyone have any idea why when I search a Fellman page on any of the latvian SIG site the surname Blumenau also comes up .....could it possibly be an alternative older spelling for this family ???
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As George did not marry, the only hope of establishing his Hebrew/Yiddish name would be if it had been engraved on his headstone - where ever that may be.
It is certainly worthwhile investigating both these men (Jacob and Nathan). As you say, a good starting point would be to look at their children's names.
Some families certainly did change their surnames for a variety of reasons, but two common reasons were to mask Jewishness and/or German origins. There would have been no compelling reason to change Fellman to anything else; the names appears in English records from the early 17th century.
When you are searching for Fellman (or variants) in the LatvianSIG database do NOT use 'sounds like'. I use 'starts with' Felma and Fellma.
I'm going to have a look at the original Russian/Hebrew records from Jakobstadt to see if I can identify Gesa-Eida's father.
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I've looked through the records, which to my surprise were maintained in German and Yiddish until 1886, and there is no indication of the name of Gesa-Eida's father.
This Yiddish part of her death registration (the right-most column) simply reads:
the woman Gesa Eida
the wife of Leyzer Mendel Felman
The column to the left of that reads kindbett, which is still in modern German usage as the 6-8 period after birth.
By chance, I stumbled across a further sister of Leyzer Mendel.
Esther, daughter of Leib and Sora Felman, was born in Griva on 1 May 1860.
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Thanks so much for finding this document ;although i don't want to widen my search to distant uncles+ aunts . knowing that Leib's wife was called Sore does give an extra confirmation that Leizer-mendel would have named one of his daughtres after his mother .
Could be Sore Fellman aged 16on passenger lists from Liverpool to Philedelphia tailoress in 1905
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ps Rebecca's death cert list her parents names as lazarus fellman+ Edith Landsman
marriage record of Leizer -mendel fellman to 2nd wife has her as Sheina Landman
from Pm ;
30 March 1889 Dvinsk/Dunaburg
Leizer-Mendel Felman, widower of Jakobstadt
and
Sheina, daughter of Ruvin Landman, aged 22 .
This begs the question, was Sheina the sister of Leizer-Mendel's first wife?
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My ggfather is listed in 1920 hospital admissions as being 2nd of 12 siblings ,2 dead
here are the children of Lazarus /mendel/Samuel Fellman
name varients and dates ( birth registrations in jakobpils ) : probable married names
with 1st wife Gies -Ada (Edith) ;
no 2 George Jacob born 1971 died 1924 (ggfather)
1 eldest sibling may be Barnet Fellman born 1870 m.sarah + had 5 children in Russia before going to USA1903
3 Rebecca born between1871 and 1875 m. benjamin bloch Manchester + scotland
4 Dvora 1879-died 1880
5 Mera /mary /may 1880 31st dec m Mose Ginsberg in USA
6 Bera Betsy Bessie 16th feb 1882 Ely Ness USA
7Aaron mottel 1883-died 1884
8 sora sarah celia 30th may 1885 m. george Devine ?
9 david 6 nov 1886 m sadie Froelich
with 2nd wife sheina /jane /jeannie nee Landman
9 (not included in total) Taube 1890- died 1891
10. Khaya 17th april 1891 Tilly /Matilda
11 gertrude golde gertz b cheetham Lancs UK 1892
12 Esther / Ester /estelle b cheetham 1897 m Jack Clifford USA
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Thanks everyone for all your help
I'm sending an article to Family tree mag about tracing Nana's birth father George jacob Fellman with various pics + documents to illustrate story + research procedure
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=708494.msg5637559#msg5637559
link to the siblings from Birkenhead to USA
now have enough info + documents to write one about The Amazing name changing Fellman family
The changes refer to theirr first names the consistency of the relatively rare spelling Fellman has helped a long way in tracing this Family
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Update ; it's actually 11 Fellman siblings I needed to find .Plus 6 halfsiblings (3 had died by 1910 census)
My grandfather George jacob was the 2nd born 1870
Rebecca born around 1870-72 became Mrs Bloch died 1960 aged 88
Found another brother
Barnet (Benjamin) J Fellman b.approx 1876 who went to USA in 1899. married Lena Ratner
the deceased 2 were
Aaron-Mottel b1883
+ Dvora b1879
Other definites are ;
Mera (May),1880 became May Ginsberg d1976 aged 93
Basa/Bessie b.1882 Bessie Ness d1980 aged 98
Shora/ Sarah/ b.1885 Celia Levine (aged43 in 1940 Brooklyn census)
David b 1886 watchmaker in Birkenhead aged 14 1901census. went to USA 1904
I believe the unbaptised brother b1888 would have not counted among the 12
So I'm still missing 3 full siblings
The 3 surving half siblings were ;
Matilda Fellman b1893 according to mancs schoolrecords became Tillie Jampolsky in1912 NY
Gertrude b.lancs 1892 1910 census a sales lady in Brooklyn
Esther b.lancs 1897 Estelle Clifford 1901-1987 d.aged 86
deceased;
khaya b1891 .b Riga .. Rebecca mancs school records don't have death date
taube b1890 deceseased in prestwich 1891
was the other deceased a boy ?
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the manchester research is on this forum
forum/index.php?topic=724944.msg5692408#msg5692408
I will see if i can get help from their synagogue records
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UPdate :Have found 8 names for ggfather's 11 full siblings
including 2 deceased in latvia
In George's 1920 hospital admissions records it says 9 of his siblings are still alive
1 was in Scotland ..5 were in USA
where was the eldest ?
the eldest sibling would be born after his parents marriage in 1868 but before
ggfather; george Jacob Fellman in 1870
One candidate is Abraham Fellman who appears on a Manchester Rate book in 1898 at Herbert Street with Abraham isaac Cohen
but can find no other ref to him .
the missing birth years on latvian records are between 1871 and 1879
If the missing 2 were girls they will be harder to find
The Jacob Fellman who keeps turning up in Lancashire + west Derby is from Austria...
I think Rachel Fellman who died in Manchester 1900 aged 27 b.approx1873
his sister but could be a sister in law
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thanks researchers extra info ;
Bernard was the 3rd sibling to die pre1924 preceeding my ggfather George Jacob .
He left no will so his goods +chattell went to wife Lena nee Ratner
and daughter Matilda
the latter lived a very long life + becme a landscape architect
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I.m going to go back over records
Am in contact with some American descendants
Now have a photo of an elderly Leizer-mendal .....
Named as Rabbi Lasarus Solomon Fellman
.photo was.found among his daughters possessions Celia Levine ( Sora/Sara Fellman .)
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Most of Glasgow's Jews arrived around that time, escaping the pogroms in the Russian empire! According to David Daiches, Scottish advocate & author & son of Edinburgh rabbi Rev Daiches, they felt at home in Scotland, the only country in Europe where the Jews never suffered persecution.
Skoosh.
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Great news
Ive had a message from Granddaughter of Esther/Estelle FELLMAN
With a phone number
Just got to find a suitable time to call
So although my mum doesnt have any jewish cousins
She is pleased
Maisie FELLMAN roberts jones b 1899
Had at least 1 cousin who is still alive today ....
Maisies father George Jacob FELLMAN b 1871was the second eldest of Samuel FELLMANs 18 children and Estelle Fellman was the 2nd youngest born 1897