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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: brigidmac on Tuesday 14 October 14 12:32 BST (UK)
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My grandmother's birth mother was Charlotte (Lottie) Roberts born april 1881 Greenfield st Birkenhead
She wrote my grandmother a letter asking not to be contacted again because she was respectably married and had a son but we no longer have this letter and don't know her married name.
My mother spent years researching the wrong Charlotte Roberts ours is daughter of John Roberts 1852-1908+ Caroline nee Gardner 1859-1893
she had 1 sister Mary b1879 who married isaac irvine in 1908 .
Lottie had her baby at 1 menai st on 12th dec 1899 giving her father's address 29 Edgar st Birkenhead .
On birth certificate nana is Maisie, Fellman (middle name), Roberts and Charlotte is recorded as draper's assistance
she obtained an affiliation order against George Jacob Fellman in jan 1900
The baptism later in march has Lottie Roberts as mother to Massie Miriam Roberts
We can't find the mysterious Charlotte Roberts on 1901 or 1911 census . marriage /death records all seem to be different Charlottes
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Good Afternoon
Could this be her marriage?
Married 12.5.1902 Llandinio Montgomery James Richard Hughes 26 lab Llandinio s of William lab and Charlotte Roberts 20 Hainwood d of John lab.Witnesses John Roberts and Ellen Hughes
In 1901 James Hughes age 24 from Dudley,Staffordshire is a farm labourer at New Hall Llandinio.
By 1911 James at Uppington Shropshire with the children Rose 8,Gladys 6 ,Harold 4 and Walter 3 supposedly still married but no sign of Charlotte.
There is a tree on Ancestry but nothing extra on Charlotte.
Ciderdrinker
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Mary was 3 in 1881 census - so presume born 1878
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X31H-9FG
Caroline Gardner was actually born 1859 in Helsby
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VBNC-KFM
Nimrod Gardner from Bugbrooke ,Northamptonshire and Mary from Scotland
I will have to find out where they married ??
www.cheshirebmd.org.uk
1859
ADDED...can`t find a marriage to Mary in England or Wales on freebmd - so I presume they married in Marys homeland of Scotland ?
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I don't think that's the one ciderdrinker
My charlottes father was an iron machinist not a labourer and he died in 1908 still in Birkrnhead .
It would be nice to think he accepted his daughter back into family to be a witness at her wedding .but Roberts is a very common name so I would need more links before I can start paying for documents.
the research my family did including the wrong Charlottes is on
http://www.GenesReunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1300276?page=6
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I have Mary Roberts born in 1879 if she was born before march she could have been 3
Charlotte is not on 1881 census as born in April
Their Grandparents Nimrod+ Mary Gardner lived nearby til ripe old ages but I don't know if they'd have known about Charlotte's baby
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I wonder if marriages (1900-1913 ) are not showing up because Charlotte Roberts lied about her age ,or if it would be worth looking under first name Lottie as that's the name is she used on her daughter Maisie Roberts' baptism in March 1900 .
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Would it be worth tracing descendants of the sister, if you haven't already tried? They may know about their family history and know her married name and fate.
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Do you know when the letter was written, and how their addresses were known to each other?
Thanks
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Did she meet Mr Fellman through work, as he appears to be a draper in 1901 census, in Birkenhead, age 30 and single (from Russia)?
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A public tree on ancestry has George Fellman's spouse as Charlotte, and he dies 1924 in Bridgend.
Presumably use of 'spouse' to mean Mother of his child?
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Mary was 3 in 1881 census - so presume born 1878
Nimrod Gardner from Bugbrooke ,Northamptonshire and Mary from Scotland
I presume they married in Marys homeland of Scotland ?
Sorry, but I'm confused re a marriage for Mary Gardner?
Are we looking for Mary & Isaac Irvine ?
I don't understand where "Nimrod" comes in?
Annie
Update............I now see where Nimrod is mentioned :-)
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No marriage on SP for Nimrod Gardner & Mary Roberts & nothing remotely similar :(
Annie
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Thanks ; I'm not on ancestry but it's probably a tree my mother did ;I don't think trees are adapted for non married couples ; George jacob Fellman was my nana Maisie's birth father from russia he had to pay an affiliation order until she was aged 14 . her adoptive father was Samual Hallis aged 60 i managed to find out where both these men came from where they died but no idea what became of birth mother Lottie Roberts . last trace is march 1900 at Maisie's baptism .
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sorry for late reply ; yes i did try looking for descendents of Charlotte's sister Mary Roberts who married Isaac Irvine in 1906 and had several children but didn't trace to any living descendents .
Nimrod+ Mary Gardner were Charlotte's maternal grandparents who lived nearby .
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The link that you gave to GenesReunited does show that all of our (few) suggestions have already been covered.
Just copying over:
'The saddest part of this story is that as an adult Maisie did track her birth mum (without a team of internet helpers)who wrote back for her not to contact her again as she was married and her son was in a "respectable "profession. My aunt found this letter after her death but decided to throw it away so we don,t know the details . But maybe as they all lived so close another family member told her who her birth mother was and where to find her'
and
'My article about the unsuccessful search for our great grandma Lottie Roberts was published in the Dec issue of Family Tree magazine '
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new people turn up new ideas . Chempat .
Your suggestion that the birth parents met at work is looking even more likely if i can establish that George Jacob Fellman was the eldest son of Samuel L Fellman the draper at 36 Price st Birkenhead in 1901
I dismissed this because Samuel + Jane were too young to have a 30 yr old son and their other children ranged from 20 -4
georgejacob's father's name has come up as mendel. leizer .lazurus before
his fathers 2nd wife was Sheina ..as dressmaker mrs Jane fellman also turns up as mrs Senie Fellman in trade directories of 1902 at Price st and the 4 eldest children have ages and names similar to george jacob's siblings named in latvian documents .I'll go back to looking for them
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Update ; yes my nana's birth father was the son of S. Fellman , the draper of Price Street
The Fellman family came from Latvian /russia in 1891 and apart from GGfather george + 1 sister
they went to New York in 1905
see thread 708494.0 "Feldman girls"
The dressmaker daugters May+ Bessie Fellman were similar age to nana's Birth mother Charlotte
Roberts who is listed as a draper's assistant on nana Maisie-fellman Roberts ' birth certificate dec 1899.
no-one on Genes Reunited chat found what became of Charlotte Roberts b april1881daughter of John Roberts + Caroline Gardner .
a friend has looked on Ancestry too and i had a go on Find My Past in the library
I think she must have lied about her age when she married
maybe someone more local could turn something up
i nearly missed her when looking in Cheshire registry office for Maisie's baptism march 1900 as she is called "Lottie Roberts "on that and baby is named "Massie Myriam Roberts"(sic) losing the "Fellman" middle name once Charlotte got the affiliation payments !
we don't know when she did marry .
she doesn't turn up in 1901 census; could already have a new name .my mother would love it if we could find something about her ; having started with nothing we have found photos of maisie's natural father ; on alien registration 1816 and hospital admission document 1920
Good luck to anyone on similar search .
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You seem to have dismissed the marriage to Mr HUGHES on the grounds that John ROBERTS was not a Labourer. One census states he was a Borer for an Engineer...assistant / labourer?
Charlotte HUGHES can be found in 1911 as year of birth 1883 birth place Llandrinio, Montgomeryshire
Patient in Salop Infirmary Shropshire married 8 years 6 children all living
Her birth place seems to be the area from which she was admitted to the hosp, you talk of respectability new family, this person has all that this person should not be overlooked or dismissed and needs following through
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ok it's still a possibility then .
I also dismissed it on the Welsh grounds our Charlotte was born + baptised in Birkenhead .
we have those certificates
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Potential death
Charlotte Hughes
BIRTH DATE: abt 1882
DATE OF REGISTRATION: Sep 1965
AGE AT DEATH: 83
REGISTRATION DISTRICT: Shrewsbury Shropshire
vol 9a page 160
The 1911 census for both James & Charlotte HUGHES states 6 children yet I can only see 5 born during the marriage
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elzabels,
How can you tell how many children were born to the marriage as they can always be living with or visiting others when the censuses were taken. With such a common surname there are numerous possible children. (Or have you got baptism or other records?)
And as the census refers to how many children born to the present marriage I do not see how significant a suspected missing child is.
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You seem to have dismissed the marriage to Mr HUGHES on the grounds that John ROBERTS was not a Labourer. One census states he was a Borer for an Engineer...assistant / labourer?
Charlotte HUGHES can be found in 1911 as year of birth 1883 birth place Llandrinio, Montgomeryshire
Patient in Salop Infirmary Shropshire married 8 years 6 children all living
Her birth place seems to be the area from which she was admitted to the hosp, you talk of respectability new family, this person has all that this person should not be overlooked or dismissed and needs following through
This Charlotte Roberts is living with her mother, Eliza at their home in Haimwood, Llandrinio in 1891. The family has been transcribed as Astley which is the previous family on the census.
The Roberts family are there in other censuses. Father, John Roberts is in 1891 census in Shropshire but with the family at other times.
She is not the Charlotte from Birkenhead.
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My Charlotte's mother was Caroline nee Gardner in Helsby 1859
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My Charlotte's mother was Caroline nee Gardner in Helsby 1859
Yes I know. I am just saying that she is not the one who married Mr Hughes in Wales who is referred to on a couple of posts here.
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Mary was 3 in 1881 census - so presume born 1878
Nimrod Gardner from Bugbrooke ,Northamptonshire and Mary from Scotland
I presume they married in Marys homeland of Scotland ?
Married Mary EDWARDS q2 1882 Birkenhead v 8a p773 per CheshireBMD Birkenhead, Civil Marriage
Caroline GARDNER married John ROBERTS q1 1877 Birkenhead v8a p 684 CheshireBMD Birkenhead, Civil Marriage
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Death
Charlotte ROBERTS q4 1953 Birkenhead v10a p32
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I wonder if this has ever been investigated: 1901 census at Castleford, Yorkshire shows an A C Percy 38 married born Lincolnshire and a comedian. With him are a Myles aged 6 born Grimsby, Lincs. and a Lottie Percy 19 - married - born Birkenhead, Cheshire - a Comedienne!! All shown as visitors.
Myles William C. Percy birth registered Dec.1894 Caistor.
Can find no 'A C Percy' bc.1864 Lincolnshire nor indeed any further trace of him.
Only record of Myles Percy is his birth and 1901 census.
Cannot see any obvious marriage between a Percy and a Charlotte/Lottie - perhaps Percy was not even his real surname.
Did they possibly emigrate after 1901 and before 1911? If so, under what surname? Myles itself is quite a distinctive Christian name but can see no trace of him in UK after 1901.
Annette
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the information was from maisie 's birth father ;george fellman'd death records which was 4 pages of notes from the asylum hospital records .
all sorts of info was in there .
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Glad you mentioned her Annette. I had seen that before and tried, as you, to find out.
There is mention of a Miles Pearcy with variations in previous Lincolnshire censuses. There may be something there.
1881 4699/65/ 55
Miles Peacy 50 yrs - a widower
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Doesn't look as though that MP had children :-\ in 1871 he is with wife Ann Maria Peacey and mother Ann.
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Thanks for picking up on my posting, Heywood. Brigidmac doesn't refer to it when she posted after that so still have no idea whether it's ever been looked into further.
Annette
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has anyone checked this marriage out? it seems the most obvious one to me
Marriages Sep 1913
Evans William H Birkenhead 8a 1183
Roberts Charlotte Birkenhead 8a 1183
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In the 1911 census there are 2 Charlotte Roberts living in Birkenhead, so 2 possibles for that marriage.
?
Births June quarter 1889 Charlotte Roberts Birkenhead
Births March quarter 1890 Charlotte Roberts Birkenhead
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sorry not been on we did check some other Charlotte roberts but dismissed for one reason or other ;one had a brother in a census our Charlotte only had sister Mary and her parents are named John + Caroline .
Also we thought she' moved away from birkenhead to escape the scandal +stayng single for 10 years then marrying didn't seem likely ; she had baby Maisie dec .1899 .
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annette i'd love to have a comedienne in our family thought these links seem tenuous ....also I think Lottie ?charlotte must have been near enough to Birkenhead to fear that her natural daughter could turn up + expose her . if we had that letter of rejection we could see if she said "don't contact me or don't visit me ,"
For exra info Lottie's mother died when she was 9
sister Mary married issac Irvine + had son Alexander
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The Percy family doesn't seem a likely link in 1901 son Myles is too old 6 to be Lottie's birth son . Although she is the right age + place of birth ; our charlotte was born1881+Birkenhead we have the birth certs ; so far no other Lottie's have turned up . I'll keep looking .
Thanks for suggestions .
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The Percy family doesn't seem a likely link in 1901 son Myles is too old 6 to be Lottie's birth son . Although she is the right age + place of birth 1881+Birkenhead so far no other Lottie's have turned up . I'll keep looking .
Thanks for suggestions .
He doesn't have to be Lottie's son.
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yes that's true ; in Charlotte's letter to her birth daughter she said she had a son but he could have been a step-son . That is also an indication to us that she didn't have lots of children in later life .Another reason we eliminated the welsh Charlotte nee Roberts
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If, by any chance, that was her, she could have had a son later with that man but we don't know, sadly.
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was there any other link to the Percy family apart from her 1st name + age ??
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I can't see anything really. The 'husband' is difficult as only initials.
The son, Myles may have gone to Australia in 1911 - there is a record for same name but no age or any other information.
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thanks Heywood I wonde why Annette thought Lottie Percy was a likely candidate ...I am willing to follow any leads
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We thought she was a candidate because of first name, age and place of birth.
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I did once find a Charlotte Robertson in a Birkenhead 1901 trade directory after trawling thru pages on computer I dismissed her as she had a birthdate 1891 then realized 10 years old was a bit young to be working as a semstress + it could have been a mistranscription of 1881 but then I couldn't find the same book or page I'd looked in.
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still not come across any leads in the cearch for Lottie Roberts after 1900 but am about to send off for publication my article about finding Nana's birth Ftaher's name + photos (.would have liked to have found his grave before completing.)
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I did once find a Charlotte Robertson in a Birkenhead 1901 trade directory after trawling thru pages on computer I dismissed her as she had a birthdate 1891 then realized 10 years old was a bit young to be working as a semstress + it could have been a mistranscription of 1881 but then I couldn't find the same book or page I'd looked in.
Schooling wasn't free until 1891, she may well have been working at 10 or 11...
Later in Queen Victoria's reign a number of day schools had begun, including the British Schools, and the Ragged Schools (so called because of the tattered clothes worn by poor pupils). In 1870 a law was passed saying that children aged between 5 and 10 had to attend weekday school. The leaving age was raised to 11 in 1893. Even so, many children were kept away from school by parents and employers who would rather have them earning money.
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"Finding Mr Fellman" article is in April's edition of Family Tree ....
I'd hoped the affiliation order would feature more promimantly it is a beautiful documnt ...nothing has come up about Charlotte .I've investigated nana's adoptive family ;Samuel + Mary Hallis.. but can't link them to Charlotte either .
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I was looking through the 1911 census last night and it is purely guess work but I came across this entry.
1911 census deatils removed. Rootschat 1911 census policy has not changed
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=355486.0
I know it is a long shot and is pure speculation and I am not sure how to follow that up really at the as she is living on her own. But is is worth a shot.
Hides
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Thanks so much for reviving this thread ,Hides
and giving me another lead ..I will certainly follow this one up
1939 records out since this search fizzled out ..but i've never used them so dont know how/if they can help
back to trade directories I suppose
or death certificates
I'm getting more computer savvy for searches .
and yes I can see a census prefering to write Liverpool than Birkenhead
It is county of Cheshire
Now I need a map to find Conway
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The lottie Roberts 1911
a costumier
in Conway North wales
seems a great candidate ,did you see who else was in her household ?
Conwy is actually on the same page of my road map as Birkenhead
i dont know if there is or was a ferry across the Dee otherwise travel would be via Shotten
A494 and A55 thes days
John Roberts died in 1908
Leaving daughter Mary irvine 'one of his next of kin" to administer his estate
Wording left it open to whether it should be shared with Charlotte
her sister Mary Roberts M Isaac Irvine
they didn't necessarily know Lotties whereabouts
But if Lottie obtained Half of £313 it would help her set up as a dressmaker or pay rent in a house without sharing it !
I am still looking for living descemdents of the Irvines :so far not found any
eldest son Alexander b1910 became a journalist !
Edit ; he died 1976 address was Mosseley road Tranmere same address for his parents deaths
Isaac died 1936 Mary d 1953
Other children were twins B.1913 Eric and John irvine
Daughter B.1916
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Lottie at 3 Conway St was a large property
Employer working from home in 1911
This could also be the wrong Charlotte who we originally researched whose birth was 1879
She was living with parents
In 1901 as a dressmaker.
Her family was more middle class if I recall .my mother took photos of all the houses her ,false grandma Charlotte had lived in !! I.ll need to go back and find those documents that Charlotte had several siblings
Our Charlotte was down as a drapers assistant in 1891
Her baby Maisie's adoptive Hallis family were tailors shirtmakers seamstresses by
The daughters were a generation older than Maisie and similar ages to
George Fellman sisters who were also in dressmaking trade and his father was the drapers
So we can guess that Charlotte was friendly with her suitor,s sisters and someone suggested that her baby could board with the Hallis parents
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Here is the link for Family Search
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&englishSubcountryName=Caernarvonshire&query=%2Bgivenname%3Alottie~%20%2Bsurname%3Aroberts~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1881-1881~%20%2Brecord_country%3AWales%20%2Brecord_subcountry%3A%22Wales%2CCaernarvonshire%22
fingers crossed
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There is a Lottie roberts in many newspaper reports in 1907 ... trafficking babies !
they make interesting reading ! It shows that there were lots of single mothers boarding out their babies hoping to place them in good families and avoid workhouse
across Britain there were also couples prepared to pay up to £15 to adopt a baby
But not likely to be my ggma as she is down as being only 20 ..one would be 27
And she said she was an actress and one report said she'd met her partner in crime in Shrewsbury.she had had a baby herself which she had boarded out .
She was sentenced in July 07 to 6 months hard labour
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Re visiting this and your dismissal of the marriage to James Richard HUGHES
The 1939 Register has an entry
Charlotte Hughes died Sept qtr 1965 age 83 Shrewsbury Shropshire
Volume: 9a Page: 160
Husband possibly Richard J?
James R Hughes died aged 87 Set qtr 1963 Whitchurch Volume: 9a Page: 224
Not unusual for someone to give the incorrect year of birth
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Thanks so much for reviving this thread
I never dismiss possibilities for Charlotte out of hand
I expect our Charlotte may well have lied about a few things
But she WAS born in 1881
in Birkenhead after the census ( Baptism date is 3rd July )
This birthplace was also wrong and by checking 1881 census
the Charlotte who married R Hughes was living with her mother in Llandudno ,(.found by Haywards detective work ..many thanks)
My Charlotte was born after the 1881 census
My spirits are always raised when there is a possible discovery
And I haven't ruled out Lottie Percy with stepson Miles yet either
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Ps the single Charlotte roberts dressmaker in a shop in high St Conway 1911 is also a candidate
She may also have lied in the letter to my Nana Maisie about being married with a respectable son .
Just to keep her away ..as a business woman an illegitimate daughter ...may have spoiled her own reputation
Or that Charlotte may have married in her thirties .
I ruled out any Charlotte's found in 1901 0r 1911 census with siblings or parents as our Lottie's only sister Mary was with their widowed father John Roberts at Edgar St in 1901
Also if a Roberts sibling was named as witness on marriage cert it ruled them out .
I think that was the case for the Charlotte Evans mentioned on the thread
Our Charlotte had no middle name
RULED out
. charlotte Ellinor roberts born Liverpool 1881. Who could may be the dressmaker in Conway 1911 .
Charlotte Prescott marriage. ..... she was older born different region Charlotte Roberts marriage in Ormskirk
Am always willing to take a look at any other Charlotte/ Lottie's with unknown maiden names
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OK maybe dismissal was to strong a word to use....At least the James R Hughes marriage can now be proverbially 'put to bed'
Do you have Charlotte's date of birth
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Thanks Elz I presume you mean date of Birth ....as we have no idea what happened after she received first payment for baby Maisie in march 1900
cant look for deaths without knowing her maiden name ..or if any of the Charlotte Roberts who died after 1920 were classed as single .
i'm just looking at my mothers records Charlotte was baptised at St peters Church Birkenhead on july 3rd 1881 photcopy of orig document
i thought we had the birth cert too ...for exact date
but i cant find it ...a note says April 1881
and i know it was after the 1881 census
father was john roberts a boiler maker
mother caroline nee gardner
living at 27 greenfield st B.head for Charlottes baptism
on 1881 census same address he is a driller in shipyard age29 borm b'head
Caroline age 22 born Helsby Cheshire
and Mary aged 3 b B.head
I will try and sort documents out this weekend ..have been working on Scots ancestors .
A summary by mums friend on ancestry gives birth as April 1881 .and i had a note saying 08/07/ 81
neither of which sounds likely
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I get the feeling that the actual birth certificate for Charlotte hasn't been obtained. Her birth was registered in the April - June quarter 1881 and a lot of people entering details on a tree (where the actual certificate hasn't been obtained) would record this as April 1881 with a link to the birth entry on GRO. I think this is what might have happened here - if the full birthdate was known surely your records would show that and not just refer to month/year. We also know that she was baptised 3/7/1881 but baptism entry doesn't show her actual birthdate.
With her actual complete birthdate you can search the 1939 Register for a Charlotte (or Lottie) with that full birthdate and if it shows her as married you would then have a name to search for in marriage records i.e. Mr A N Other to Charlotte (or Lottie) Roberts. There could well be more than one possibility, of course.
This would seem to me to be the only resource open to you now in tracing what became of her.
Annette
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Oh Annette
you are absolutely right ! Great Deduction
Can't believe we didn't check that earlier . I suppose once birth parents age and address were known and we got caught up in the excitement of finding the Russian birth father we never went back to starting point
I.ve just been through all the documents mum collected and only the baptism is there for Charlotte
So back to drawing board will send for the certificate and follow your advice it's another opening so we don't have to give up completely just yet
I hope she was still alive in 1939 !
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I wonder if this has ever been investigated: 1901 census at Castleford, Yorkshire shows an A C Percy 38 married born Lincolnshire and a comedian. With him are a Myles aged 6 born Grimsby, Lincs. and a Lottie Percy 19 - married - born Birkenhead, Cheshire - a Comedienne!! All shown as visitors.
Myles William C. Percy birth registered Dec.1894 Caistor.
Can find no 'A C Percy' bc.1864 Lincolnshire nor indeed any further trace of him.
Only record of Myles Percy is his birth and 1901 census.
Cannot see any obvious marriage between a Percy and a Charlotte/Lottie - perhaps Percy was not even his real surname.
Did they possibly emigrate after 1901 and before 1911? If so, under what surname? Myles itself is quite a distinctive Christian name but can see no trace of him in UK after 1901.
Annette
I have managed to ascertain that A C Percy was Arthur C Percy ( there are lots of reports in newspapers describing his acting career. In the week of the 1901 census he is in a play which also includes Herbert Woodin,who was lodging in the same household as him on census night, and Madge Palmer who I suspect is the person described as Madge Woodin). I have also found a marriage notice for him in 1892. He married Mabel Warhurst in Derby and is described as Thomas Percy Carmichael of Glasgow also known as Arthur C Percy.
Isobel
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"Thomas Percy Carmichael of Glasgow"
Not on SP?
Annie
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There is a birth notice for Myles in The Era. He was born in Grimsby on Oct 1st 1894 described as a son to Arthur C Moore and Mabel Percy-Moore. Mabel also seems to have been on the stage, working occasionally with her husband as either Mrs Arthur Percy or Miss Mabel P Moore. Can't find any mention of her after about 1897 and Arthur seems to disappear around 1903.
Isobel
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Thanks Annie+ iso
some deveoplments on alisoun's thread on Genes Reunited too
cheshirebmd.org.uk/index.php
birth has a Percy Myles william C. Caistor
father A.C Percy b Grimsby 1863
I've not had time to check it or death of a Miles PEARCEY in 1898 age 67 burial 15th may
very likely candidate for Myles but I cant spend time chasing this family back in time if the Lottie with them is not the correct one
Lets see if any of them turn up anywhere after 1901.
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Have managed to find more on Mabel Warhurst. She remarried in 1900 in Poplar to Henry Gordon Smith. Marriage entry on Freebmd shows her as Mabel Moore/Percy/Warhurst so definitely her. She is with Henry in Poplar in 1901 and by 1910 they had emigrated to the USA and were in Chicago. No sign of a divorce and Arthur C Percy was very much alive in 1901, so very odd.
Isobel
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also why would she left young son with Arthur rather than take him with new husband ..fathers had more rights to children then tho !
I'm hoping if it is our Lottie she wasnt influenced by A.C Percy'name swopping
She may have preferred Roberta Carlotta as a stage name
Charlotta ....of Glasgow .....does Glasgow contain some exotic acting pedigree
Roberta Cheshire has a nice ring to it .
Maybe we'll find them together under his " Carmicheal " surname
or just him
wonder why Arthur chose to inverse names for his first marriage
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Lottie may have been good at camouflaging her identity in records
but her daughter did somehow get hold of an address for her at some point in her life
holding out hope for the 1939 register .
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'Arthur' and Mabel were indeed divorced.
First, Arthur Carmichael Percy married Mabel Moore 14/12/1892 in Register Office, Derby - he is shown as 30, Elocutionist, son of Thomas Percy, Commercial Clerk - she aged 21, dau. of Henry Moore, Traveller. The marriage certificate is shown in the divorce papers.
1901 Census shows Mabel - after remarriage - as bc.1876 Nottingham, and there is indeed a birth for a Mabel Warhurst (the other name referred to earlier) in Dec.qtr.1875 Nottingham.
Divorce - petitioned 31/10/1899, Decree Nisi 29/1/1900, Final Decree 3/10/1900 and it was he who was the petitioner - Thomas Percy Carmichael otherwise Arthur Carmichael Percy v. Mabel Carmichael on the grounds of her adultery with Henry Gordon Smith (who she subsequently married). Custody of their son was granted to him.
When Mabel remarried in Dec.1900 Luton there are 4 separate entries for her in names of Mabel Percy, Mabel Warhurst, Mabel Moore and Mabel Carmichael!
Even with details of his supposed father I can still find nothing positive on Arthur (or whatever his name was) pre his marriage to Mabel in 1892.
Whoever 'Lottie' was on 1901 Census (which started all this off) although she is shown as 'married' to Arthur I don't believe any marriage had taken place and hope in a way she isn't Charlotte Roberts because can find nothing on 'Arthur' after 1901 in the 2 surnames we know he used nor a likely Charlotte/Lottie with these names.
Sounds like his whole life was an act and can't believe a word he says!
Annette
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Thanks for that research Annette ...
What a story ...and wonder what became of young Myles ...but more than one mystery to deal with today .
May I copy your results onto alisoun topic on GR pls
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Of course!
Annette
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Whoever 'Lottie' was on 1901 Census (which started all this off) although she is shown as 'married' to Arthur I don't believe any marriage had taken place and hope in a way she isn't Charlotte Roberts because can find nothing on 'Arthur' after 1901 in the 2 surnames we know he used nor a likely Charlotte/Lottie with these names.
Sorry I haven't read everything and this may be very stupid
BUT was she married to him or just married. Ie could she have been someone else's wife and just in his house?
No offence meant to any and if I'm asking something very stupid I'm sorry.
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Great question
Phen
I think we were all assuming they were married or pretending to be
as had same surname ..
AS Arthur is not head of that household their relation to each other is not given .
will ask sis to add that observation to the Genes Reunited thread
but she could have "married" his brother or nephew
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Well done finding the divorce Annette. Don't know how I missed it. I gave found some further information on Arthur Carmichael Percy. He appears to have been the tenant of an establishment called the Park Inn in Manchester which was managed by his mother in law Mrs Warhurst. There was an objection to his licence in 1894 as it was claimed that he was not resident as he was an actor often away fulfilling provincial engagements. his mother in law was separated from her husband and had 'cohabited with more than one man during her managership' . Arthur's wife was also reported to be often away because of her engagements as an actress, but was ' a highly respectable woman'.
There are references in the Era and the Stage up to about 1903 for Arthur.
Isobel
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Seems Mabel wasn't altogether truthful when she married as she was the daughter of Henry Warhurst, not Henry Moore ( described as a Clerk in 1881 - see Henry Washurst on Ancestry) and Martha nee Carver. According to the marriage notice in The Era she was Mabel Warhurst granddaughter of the late William Carver in Nottingham. Henry Yelverton Warhurst married Martha Carver in Nottingham in 1874. Mabel seems to have used the stage name Miss Mabel Moore.
Isobel
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The Era has a notification of the death of Thomas Percy Carmichael on 16th Feb 1905 in Epsom. Says he was 43. According to register entry he was 53 (transcribed as 58 on freebmd). Era says he was a native of Glasgow, known as a very painstaking actor, deeply regretted by many friends and aquaintances and especially by sorrowing wife. Interred in Epsom.
Isobel
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43 fits in with his age on the census
So what was the name of his loving wife ??
And did Myles aged 10 by then go back to mother Mabel
Same year as. ArtHUR .THOMAS WHATEVER got divorced
OUR CHarlotte had obtained an AFFILIATION order ....in Jan
Had large initial payment in March 1900 plus promise of weekly payments til her daughter reached age of 13
Then she.d had the baby baptised . Using the birth fathers surname as middle name
the Maisie FELLMAN....ROBERTS name on birth cert would no doubt have helped her case
Baptism is Maisie Misspelt as Massie MIRIAM ROBERTS
It would be in her interests to keep in contact with George jacob Fellman to receive these payments
Unless she found a way to get him to pay the Hallis family directly to cover costs of boarding her baby
As a foreigner it was in his interest to maintain payments for fear of arrest for non payment and as George jacob
Stayed in Birkenhead til at least the 1901 census he must have paid first year .
He did get arrested in 1906 for selling exotic postcards in Dundee and in 1915 for being an alien .in Wales
..but exonerated
See the thread on naturalization for more about him ..
.and before you detectives get to work with your newspapers he is NOT
The Austrian Jacob Fellman who got arrested in Derby ./Manchester !
his family mostly left for USA in early 1900's and as a travelling salesman with no more relations in Birkenheadt might have been easier for him to stop paying Maisie's board
He seems to have been based in Wales from 1911 to his death in 1924
Nana always loved Wales perhaps she hoped to run into her father.
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Thomas Percy Carmichael married again in Birmingham Sep qutr 1901 but don't know which of the three possible women he married. None were called Charlotte or Lottie.
Isobel
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Thomas Percy Carmichael married again in Birmingham Sep qutr 1901 but don't know which of the three possible women he married. None were called Charlotte or Lottie.
Isobel
He married Simie Harriette Ben-oliel.
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Well I think we can rule him out as our Charlotte's "husband "
Unless she adopted Myles and passed herself off as married ....he certainly has an array of surnames to choose from !
What if whereas Arthur Percy.s daughter by another woman and married is a mistranscription
Anothe Flights of fancy. But my wild hunches have been righti n past
..but I.m hooked .
Think I may take a look at Myles death to glean more. Worth a few credits ???or is it £12 to see orig documents these days ?
.I.ve always had a thing about adoption and was a foster parent myself
I sort of guessed Nana had been adopted but I grew up believing shed been brought up by 'two old ladies '
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My feeling that the Lottie Percy in 1901 was with Arthur but probably not his wife. i suspect she was involved in some way with the show he was appearing in but there is nothing in the press reports that offer any clue. I am still drawn to the Lottie Roberts who was involved in the baby farming Scandel in 1907 and who claimed to be an actress. I know the age is out, but I think she is worth following up.
Isobel
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The press reports of the baby farming/obtaining money by false pretences case doesn't give much background for Lottie, except that she met her partner in crime Herbert Smith (aka Leo Selwyn), restaurant manager turned escapologist, in Shrewsbury, where she became a mother. Smith was from London. They spent sometime between Shrewsbury and their arrest in the S Wales valleys and Swansea
actually - if you look at this story it has details I've not seen in others, and says she might be called Lottie Bourne, come from Shrewsbury and use the professional name Jess smith . There's also a photo
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4176824/4176826/30/
(has to be said the Lottie Bourne name doesn't appear after this date in later stories on the trial and conviction)
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Thanks so much mabel
I thinnk iread all those news reports but didnt twig that there were photos attacjhed to this one
have photod it for my mum and cousins . I cant see any family resemblance but admit she looks over 19 ..need an un biased opinion about fam resemblance
will attempt to change my avatar to a pic of maisie aged about 25
This one isn't very clear and I don't know Maisie's age but also prob after marriage when grandad got his box brownie camera
I passed myself off as married aged 24- 27 there are all kinds of reasons to do it
on Genes my avatar is Maisie in a bathing suit ,
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The baby trafficker could the same Lottie as the one with Mr Percy
the weekly payment for baby Maisie were also assessed at 4s
I calculated that it may have been equivalent of a dressmakers pay .enough for 30 year old Edith Hallis living with her parents to give up work to look after baby Maisie
Edith died when maisie was 6
1906 George Fellman had to pay £4 fine for the postcard court case and would have had his stock ..source of income ... confiscated
So he.d be unable to keep up his maintenance payments that month
.if Lottie WAS receiving that money
she would not be able to have same lifestyle
So her subsequent pregnancy would suddenly be a way to make money !
While looking for another family to board the 1901 baby she learnt that childless couples would pay to take a baby
£11 was a lot of money in those days plus baby would not be on breadline with single actress mum or in dreaded workhouse
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Overnight I've warmed to the baby trafficker maybe being ours
It would solve the problem of all those missing Lottie's
And if she was Arthurs legal bride in 1901 we.d have to look for Henrietta's in 1911 census
I think I.d better go back to the Irvine's and see if I can find any living nephews or neices or their children from Charlotte.s sister Mary
DNA could reveal the answer !
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Trying to copy URL of newspaper but it just opens the page each time .....
Technophobia !
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Breaking news from Genes Reunited
The 1901 actress is not ours if same person as Ben-Oai S. Henrietta she really did exist
Chris found a birth record .!
Married Arthur Percy sept 1901. So likely used name of Lottie pre wedding
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Simie Harriette was born in 1872 in Croydon so I think she is unlikely to be 'Lottie'
Isobel
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No she's not ...she was with her mum in 1901 and had a baby daughter with Arthur in Dec
In 1911 with her daughter and mum
So the 1901 Lotty Percy could be our Lotty Roberts and /or
Lottie Bourne who acts with her fake husband as intermediary between unmarried mothers and childless couple
They advertise having a child to "put out to nurse"
take newborns from poor single mums in various towns
(Several from Belfast but also Leeds Lincoln Cheltenham etc)
Then give the new born babies to childless couples
In time for babies to be registered + baptised under their new names
My aunt thinks the woman in the newspapers looks about 26 ..and looks a bit like herself
...I didn't tell her the context or who the lady may be before she gave me her opinion
She thinks that Lottie was a social do gooder who had to act outside existing laws and ethics .
Newspaper gives her origin as Lottie Bourne waitress from Shrewsbury ..
.another report had her aged ,20 I think
It's a lot of reading for strained eyes ! Sorry
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Apparently there is an L bourne servant in Shropshire in 1901 helpful rooter in chat box found her
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My beautician friend has been comparing photos of my aunt and nana in their twenties with the photo of lady in newspaper
We all have same eyebrow lines
Interestingly she evaluated that lady.s age as nearer 30 .
I can't remember which news report gave her an age haven't managed to download any of theses photos to the photo site ..need to change a JPEG name or something.
Aunty thinks this Lottie deserves a trophy for finding good families for these unwanted babies
And saved some respectable couples from the stigma of being childless.
She will frame the pic even if it's not her grandma !
Our Lottie boarded Maisie with a lovely couple and their 30 year old daughter
The head of household was a man who.d spent his own childhood in workhouse
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I posted a pic of Lottie Bourne on a family FB page without saying who she is .one of mums cousins immediately posted "who is this lady .?she looks familiar ....". maybe she reminds her of her aunt Maisie
Also posted a pic of nana Maisie grandad Ted and his brother and wife in their twenties but can't work out how to JPEG juggle and transfer to the photo comparison forum
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Had a chance to read the article slowly and make notes
This fake name changing couple were based in Liverpool from where they placed adds and received the letters ..the first case was in 1901.
The story is that Lottie had seen how many childless couples responded to her own and when looking to place her own child ..( the 1901 case or earlier is t clear).
So it does fit with Lottie roberts boarding out maisie
There are some odd terms used ..in the article so it took me a while to work out who they were going to see
I can't work out how many actual babies exchanged hands I don't think it was a con scam
What do you think ?
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Get champagne ready but don't jump to conclusions look what developments came on the thread via wonderful Australian newspapers any clever Roots members Ros and Annie andmjam
...thread is called what happened tobabies
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=758108.0
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Wo dewoman friend rescued me I had to phone her to Google wirral r like phone number .so birth certificate finally ordered you canth dof it over phone but pen paper and 1st class stamy still works
Filling a former in on line is so daunting
...a day in do answer back when answer machints tel me I CAN do something on lineach
Because I CANNOT
Now in Costa so accost a random customer on a computer to asbestos how to cone ctrl blasted predicted text .
Thanks B
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Apologies for what looks like gobble gook or drunk writing .
I had eye problem's. ...
And was trying to post quickly
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so the actual birth cert
born 21st april 1881 27 greenfield st
father john roberts
mother caroline roberts formerly Gardner
lots of questions raised ...did she get her 2nd baby back ?
is he the respectable son referred to in nana's rejection letter
did she get back together with her lover who pleaded for leniency in the baby trafficking case ? and did he ever find out she was 7 years older than him
he know about the first baby and the 2nd wasnt his ...but it sounds like he really loved her
they farmed out at least 14 babies all over england + there are sveral news stories about them .
next step 1930 register but how do tou look up lotties with vaious surnames .
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1939
Go to advance enter date of birth exact and Charlotte... only 6 come up!
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Thanks elzabels .I.ll see if my eyes are up to that today and if I can Fit in visit to library
Or if I can persuade my cousin
To look
I looked at 1939 on FindMyPast last time but it was only a trial
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Brigid,
Sorry to hear you have visual problems (not good) :(
I looked at 1939 on FindMyPast last time but it was only a trial
Loving this thread but 'trial' I think for you is now 'trying' but the journey has been great, better than any which are resolved within 5 mins as this has given RC enthusiasts a real treat as we love enigmas ;D
Annie
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thanks Annie ...really touched by yr comment
like my aunt I am fascinated and impressed by this Charlotte even if she isnt ours
There is a book + story waiting to be told
and she will of course be included in my comedy routines of family History
a cousin knows a filmaker and I have a fim writer + star "friend " from Genes Reunited who has recently had a prize-winning short film made about his ancestor "an unfortunate woman "
and the film about his own teen life is called "Give them Wings " being rereleased now and on kindle
am i allowed to give his name ?
I will post a mini film if i get my French club home schoolers to act it out .
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Tried to post a pic of a lookalike doll and postcar d. Right era fashion
defeated by technology but have changed my profile to my Lottie doll who I think is either a young drapers assistant modelling clothes for customers .....leading to a career in acting
1900
Aged about 19
Or a self made costumier 1911 ex baby placer. Aged 30 plus .....I know her face is young but we all look younger than our true age in my family
What about the outfit anyone like to pitch a date ? She.s wearing long bloomers
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Have just seen from court records that Lottie Roberts and Herbert Smith were also charged with larceny of 4 rolls of cinematography films at Liverpool on 11th Dec 1907
This crime was not triied
How can this be possible if they were both serving hard labour sentences from june 1907
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Mrs Ball of 7 Albert row penrhhiewtyn Neath took charge of Lottie.s baby girl and by April 1907 tried to contact "" Mrs selwyn" she declared she did not want to part with the baby
This baby born 19/11/06 should have been registered by Lottie herself and if the girl is still with mr and Mrs ball in 1911. I may be able to find her daughter's first name .
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FindMyPast has a news report of an elderly Mrs Charlotte roberts murdered with a flat iron in 1941
In stapleton road
Town and country not given
Women in my family don't iron so it would be amazing coincidence if this was our Lottie
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May just be a coincidence, but thought I'd mention it just in case it is important.
Was looking for possible Smith/Roberts/ Baker female births in Swansea in Dec quarter of 1906 that might match the child given over to the Balls. There is a birth of a Jessie Smith whose mmn is Bourne according to the gro index. This rang bells so I checked back over the thread and found that in one of the newspaper reports Lottie's name is given as Lottie Bourne. Can't see any other Smith births in Swansea in that period with mmn Bourne.
Isobel
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Wow Isabel .....
That's amazing ...You.d be great at the detective game
So this could be Lottie Roberts maskerading as Lottie bourne
Im sure I read somewhere that one of her stage names as an actress was Jessie Bourne
So she may have liked that name for her daughter
I.m going to have to reread everything
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The Welsh newspaper of may 1907 refers to her as Lottie Bourne
But from July Flintshire observer and Australian newspapers call her Lottie Roberts
She was taken to court under that name and imprison ....Is it a case of Bourne identity fraud ??
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Yes it was Welsh evening express and mail of thurs may 23 Rd that refers to Lottie Bourne professional name Jess Baker
I looked to see if there were any evidence of Lottie Bourne's in Shropshire
There is one born 1885 on 1891 census and 1901 wrockwarden wood Wellington Shropshire
But if she was the one handling babies she did a good job passing herself off as Lottie Roberts to journalists and police
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There are 63 xJessie smith in 1911 census ...
4 x Jessie Ball
..None of either in glamorgan
But maybe the Neath address was. Misreported
According to reports of the trial where names were not used the lady who had care of Lottie's baby was a well to do young married woman from Hammersmith
The baby is described as a prepossessing little girl charmingly attired
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One of the newspaper articles says Mrs Ball subsequently moved to Southport - have a look in 1911 census - I can see here there as Jessie Smith aged 4.
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Wonderful hasta .I.ll have a look tomorrow
Do we have first names for the Ball couple ?
For the detectives out there ....
There are 3 British articles about elderly boarding house keeper Mrs Charlotte Roberts of stapleton road Bristol
I.d like to be able to open the one titled BRISTOL MURDER CLUE
western daily press
It contains the sentence ...
Had been thought Mrs Roberts was a widow ....But police are now inquiring .....
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hasta - that's a brilliant find! Has to be the same child surely, as everything fits including place of birth being Swansea.
Isobel
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Yes it was Welsh evening express and mail of thurs may 23 Rd that refers to Lottie Bourne professional name Jess Baker
I looked to see if there were any evidence of Lottie Bourne's in Shropshire
There is one born 1885 on 1891 census and 1901 wrockwarden wood Wellington Shropshire
But if she was the one handling babies she did a good job passing herself off as Lottie Roberts to journalists and police
Sorry if I am repeating what is already known but it is a bit confusing ;)
We now have baby Jessie Smith with the Ball family - good, all fits - great find hasta.
Baby Jessie Smith born Swansea with mother named Bourne.
Lottie Bourne - parents James and Mary - Wrockwardine, Shropshire
1891 Lottie S Bourne 6 yrs b St George's Shropshire
1901 Lottie J Bourne 16 yrs b London
Maybe this isn't your Charlotte after all?
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Hasta and isobel holistic private detectives !
I.ll get my nose out of news reports and join a site where I can look at 1911 censuses
But another nice tie is that one paper said Lottie testified to having travelled with Herbert Smith for several years.
So despite the wording of his appeal that he was just helping a friend I distress I think he must have been the birth father
He obviously loved Lottie and was willing to take all blame for the idea of taking payments pleading for leniency for her
Jessie smith
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Thanks for Bourne summary Heywood
The birth reg has the couple as married but they weren't
They were been living in Swansea as Mr And Mr Leo selwyn
According to the landlady they also received letters addressed to Smith and Bourne
If she was really Lottie J Bourne
Why did newspapers change from using that name to Lottie Roberts
Court records also say Roberts.
Was Shropshire Lottie Bourne working aged 16
did she marry
can we find her in 1911 would it say how many babies shed have if she is still single ??
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Worked out how to use ancestry search and found
Adoptee Jessie Smith with Thomas and Sarah Ball in Southport
They were childless .
Jessie is down as aged 4 so I couldn't find her at first she would have been 5 really
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She was born November 1906 and 1911 census was taken April 1911 so she would have been 4 yrs and the age is right.
Lottie Bourne isn't working in 1901.
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Duh sorry Heywood bad maths again
I.ve been saying our Charlotte would have been 28 at time of baby trafficking too
But in fact it's 25 in early 1907
I am learning to use ancestry haven't found a birthor baptism record for Shropshire Lottie on the 1901 census her parents are born Salop Donnington
But her birthplace looks like London
There is a birth for Jessie Charlotte Sarah Bourne Bermondsey London many 1884
Parents are George Benjamin Bourne a
And Sarah Euphemia Bourne
Mmm mystery thickens
Can't find either of these Lottie Bourne in 1911 and can't find a marriage for her
There is a Sussex Lottie Bourne B 1886. found her marriage 1906. So at least she's eliminated
and a Milly Lotty bourne from reigateSurry b1884
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Murdered Charlotte Roberts of 1941
Not ours either...She was aged 65. Ours would have been 60 ( maths right this time, Heywood !)
Not a widow as first reported
But married
Her husband a chemist was alive at this date !
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I am learning to use ancestry haven't found a birthor baptism record for Shropshire Lottie on the 1901 census her parents are born Salop Donnington
But her birthplace looks like London
There is a birth for Jessie Charlotte Sarah Bourne Bermondsey London many 1884
Parents are George Benjamin Bourne a
And Sarah Euphemia Bourne
Mmm mystery thickens
Can't find either of these Lottie Bourne in 1911 and can't find a marriage for her
I have looked at the same with the same results. Isn't it odd.
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Maybe Lottie was actually a brothers child so search for her marriage with father George and or Benjamin
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STILL LOOKING FOR OUR CHARLOTTE ( LOTTIE )ROBERTS IN 1901 and 1911
We can probably eliminate the actress Lottie Percy B Birkenhead 1881 too
I.m enjoying learning to search on ancestry ;
Census 1891 liverpool
There is a Lottie Pierce b.lancs aged 8
Neice of james Gould and his wife Alice.
Marriage 1906 age 25 I Surrey
Father Alfred John Pearce
Or marriage 26 July 1899 of CHARLOTTE ELIZABERTH PEARCE to Ole Bertunes Johanen
Father Joseph Pierce
in 1901 Lottie Pierce could be married but using her maiden name or her stage name
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I.m going to go on premise that battered Charlotte was ours ....Either way will get rid of the flat iron .....Not having lethal weapons I my house !
+ Instead of telling people ironing is against my religion I can truthfully now say that I have an ironing phobia
My best friend.s toddler pulled an iron by cord and I fell on her lg 16 years ago
My Lovely French Ex taught me how to recognise crease free material
In Algeria we just drip dried clothes
I Senegale /Congo friends dry washing on bushes
+ My sis lays her shirts for smart wear under the mattress once dry ...Is pressed over night
3 generations of our husbands were sailors and they learn to iron with military precision
So myself .Mum and paternal gma let them do it
Noone would let maternal downgrading as dangerous as iron or cook as like me she got easily distracted
Eggs explode I paid I water boils dry .....!
I
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"The female prisoner good-looking woman, and her real name is said to be Lottie Bourne. She had given the professional name of Jess Baker" alias Jessie Baker also Mrs Isdale, Mrs Hughes, Lottie Smith, Lottie Roberts
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4176809/4176812/63/
Photograph of Leo Selwyn and Lottie Roberts
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3443881/3443888/167/
I see you've been in all the papers
sounds like them in this paper too https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AS19070615.2.118
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Thanks so.much whiteout each articlear gives a dlifter enter dimension.
That first one is the only one that gives Bourne as her real.name th
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On fri .I will be holding my 4th time travel detectives event .About 1899 how we identified who my nanas birth father was and how child maintenance payments were obtained from him
On Feb 3rd the story will be about Lottie Roberts. the disappearing birth mother
Including
The controversial story of the placement of babies and whether or not the lady in the newspapers is Lottie Roberts or Lottie Bourne !
The local DWP dept working and pensions have commissioned me to run 2 workshops
someone in the Child Maintenance Services understands the importance of
Historic cases from 100 years ago :
proving paternity .Obtaining payments .Single mothers and placement of children
It is a fun event so it will be in the form of interactive story telling alongside some laughter for well being sessions over two days in May
I wonder if I will have found more answers by then
The baby placements can mostly only be solved by DNA ....thats a whole other type of detective work .
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Just to put context on the baby trafficking scandal
Baby farming had been a big problem in Victorian times and public was scandalised by some notorious cases in from 1870's
1877 Sophia Todd known as 'the Lancashire governess.' was suspected of baby farming
sentenced to execution because she'd killed babies in her care
Baby traffickers received lesser punishments
Charlotte Roberts and Herbert Smith were originally accused of killing one of the missing babies so would have feared the death sentence too .
Last person hanged for this crime was in 1907
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I wonder if this has ever been investigated: 1901 census at Castleford, Yorkshire shows an A C Percy 38 married born Lincolnshire and a comedian. With him are a Myles aged 6 born Grimsby, Lincs. and a Lottie Percy 19 - married - born Birkenhead, Cheshire - a Comedienne!! All shown as visitors.
Myles William C. Percy birth registered Dec.1894 Caistor.
Cannot see any obvious marriage between a Percy and a Charlotte/Lottie
Annette
# HE married simie Harriet Ben -oliel in 1901 diedv16th Feb 1906 aged 53 native of Glasgow
I have managed to ascertain that A C Percy was Arthur C Percy ( there are lots of reports in newspapers describing his acting career. In the week of the 1901 census he is in a play which also includes Herbert Woodin,who was lodging in the same household as him on census night, and Madge Palmer who I suspect is the person described as Madge Woodin). I have also found a marriage notice for him in 1892. He married Mabel Warhurst in Derby and is described as Thomas Percy Carmichael of Glasgow also known as Arthur C Percy.
Isobel
I re posted this as a summary of the actors..Have started a separate topic about them as this thread is now very long and lots of tangents
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=770368.msg6230208
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new people turn up new ideas .
I dismissed this because Samuel + Jane were too young to have a 30 yr old son and their other children ranged from 20 -4
georgejacob's father's name has come up as mendel. leizer .lazurus before
his fathers 2nd wife was Sheina ..as dressmaker mrs Jane fellman also turns up as mrs Senie Fellman in trade directories of 1902
I must have missed this bit but it has caught my eye now.....
It may not be relevant or the case & to be honest I'm slightly thrown by the Sheina/Senie/Jane references to Mrs Fellman.
In Scotland & (possibly Ireland)? SINE (pronounced Sheena) is gaelic for Jean/Jane as this was the name my g/mother was known as.
Maybe a Scottish or Irish connection there?
Annie
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you have to read whle post annnie ..latvian jew ..various spelling depending on where they lived
have latvian marriage for Samuel Felllman + both his wives who may have been sisters just put Fellman in search and all topics relating to them will come up .
Must concentrate on Charlotte on this one
Such a long thread thanks everone for your interest + support .
mum + i hope to do soem history trips but i want to go to Birkenhead + manchester + merthyr tidvil
she wants to go to Bugbrook ( the maternal side Nimrod gardner father of Caroline gradner mother of Charlotte )
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News
DNA turned up a 2 nd cousin high probability for my mum
He's contacted me and doesn't know much about his grandmother but according to his father's birth cert Nov 1905
She was Charlotte Benjamin formerly Robarts
His father was Eric Michael Benjamin
So now I can look for them in 1911 an 1939
This would mean it wasn't the baby trafficking actress
DNA match does not connect with Jones or Fellman so it looks highly probable
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What an mazing result!
From the info Charlotte Benjamin gives in 1911 and on the 1939 register it seems to check out as well. No sign of the husband in either though, she says she is married and can't find a Roberts/Benjamin marriage around 1903 anywhere.
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That is really good news :)
I think I recall you said that she wrote to her family and had a son and was doing well so that fits.
I too cannot spot a marriage but there is a record of her coming back from US where she is described as a milliner.
There is also a probate record for her but I am not sure how appropriate it is to post information when you now have contact with her grandson.
What do you think?
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There are a couple of electoral roll entries in the early 1920's for a Charlotte Benjamin living in Hampstead along with a Joseph Benjamin and also a probate record for a Joseph Benjamin died 1928 in Hampstead which names widow Charlotte ( all on Ancestry).
Isobel
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::) I had looked at later electoral rolls where she is on her own but missed that one.
I also had a couple of Mr Benjamins in mind for her husband but none are Joseph. He was much older than her if that is the case- which it seems to be.
Do you think it is the same Charlotte .. Or Joseph. I can see the address for the probate and a Charlotte Benjamin are the same in 1928.
I wonder if they married abroad.
Good finds, Isobel :)
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Joseph appears to have been married to a Rachel, who died in 1914 in Paddington age 77. They don't appear to have had any children.
Isobel
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Yes that is what I found and can't see a marriage after his wife's death.
It would probably need further information either from the relative or through documents.
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I reached the same conclusion and the 1911 census (address and occupation) throws a bit of light on it. Also found her son sailing to Brazil in 1926 from the same address that 90 year old Joseph died at in 1928 50a Portsdown Road W.9 - so a definite tie in there
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Great find Hasta! This story continues to prove intriguing.
Can't see Charlotte in 1901, but not impossible that she is the one purporting to be the comedienne wife of Mr Percy.
Isobel
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Even when we find her she is a mystery ;)
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thanks everyone
grandson told me Edwin was in Be4dlam at some poinr ..had financial problems but doesnt know if charlotte and her son went to USA to follow him
he says his father micheal eric benjamin went to jewish school in US in Bennet street so that must have been after 1911 when he was only 5
at some point they changed names to Bennett
im having computer fixed so will get back asap
yes its ok to post Probate I would think
she is sill mysterious as his her husband ..if they did marry officially
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Confused now - who is Edwin?
Charlotte and Eric appear to have arrived in the US onboard the St Paul on 31st Dec 1916 ( Ancestry transcribed as Bengamin). Charlotte gives a next of kin address for a sister in Birkenhead. Difficult to read but looks like Maria Irvine, 35 Moasley Road, Tranmere, Birkenhead. She was heading for Hotel Wardward in New York. They returned to UK in 1919 on the Lapland.
Isobel
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This all seems to fit as Charlotte's sister Mary does appear to have married a Mr Irvine (Isaac) and was at the Mossley Road address in 1911. Looks as if the family did have some degree of contact with Charlotte.
Isobel
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thats wonderful yes Mary Irvine lived at Mossley road with her family
i now need to go back and see who you are talking about joseph ?
i was told charlotte married Edwin Hime Benjamin 1861-
...son of michael H Benjamin 1823-1879 }and Rachel Benjamin 1830 1881
their son was Eric Michael Bennett1905-1971 married dorothy goggin1906-1999
then remarried
so i dont know where Joseph comes in ?
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Èdwin H Benjamin married Miriam Roberts 1902 at South Manchester Synagogue. :-\
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thats interesting ..miriam wasthe middle name Charlotte chose for her baby Maisie when she had her baptised in 1900
also the actress in 1901 never stated relationship to mr percy as married ..they were all boarders in relation to the head of household the landlady .
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OK - Grandson Martin here:
My father was born - Eric Michael Benjamin in 1905
His father was Edwin Hime Benjamin
[Now he disappears from all records after he went into hospital, but in the US, an Edwin Hume Benjamin turns up again - I think this is our man! I can't think why else they would go to the US and return soon afterwards unless he was over there!]
His mother was Charlotte Roberts (named as Benjamin on the birth certiificate)
To our knowledge (only what we have been told) he was an only child. But maybe not?
He did sail to New York as you say, and attended school there, it was a strict jewish school as he remembered having to wwear the traditional jewish clothes. He lived near 'Bennett Avenue' which obviously gave him the idea for the name change in 1947 from Benjamin to Bennett
He had a first wife - Dorothy Goggin
Who produced a son - David Bennett
And a daughter - Janet Bennett
He met and married my mother in 1951 - We are all Bennetts! No one has changed their names.
All of this has been shrouded in mystery and there seems to have been a lot of 'shameful' goings on.
My dad planned to go and live in Brazil and left for there days after his 21st birthday in '26. But he returned again to Britain, ultimately joining the RAF and becoming an officer for the duration of WW2. Serving as Eric Benjamin. Name changed to Bennett in 1947.
OK - Might help you guys a bit - But I dont know much more than you.
TTFN
Martin.
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The Joseph we have been looking at would seem to be a brother of Michael H Benjamin. We hit on him as when he died in 1828 his widow is named as Charlotte and also the address given by Eric when he sailed to Brazil in 1926 matches the address given for Joseph when he died in 1928.
Isobel
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welcome to the board Martin i was just copying some things out to send to you .
I think Miriam Roberts and Charlotte Roberts are the same person your father may have been the only child of Edwin + Charlotte but she had had Maisie out of wedlock in Dec 1899
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It's funny to think he probably had a sister that he never knew about. I am sure he didn't know. Dad was so obsessed with doing the right thing, he almost certainly would have found her and helped her if he had had any idea. And we have had absolutely no inkling about her.
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Between 1926 and 1929 London Electoral Rolls show Charlotte living at 50a Portsdown Place. That is the address given by Eric when he went to Brazil and is also the address Joseph ( born c 1838) died at. His probate names widow Charlotte.
Hi Martin - I'm assuming you have seen the birth certificate of Eric Michael and that it names his parents as Edwin and Charlotte?
Isobel
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Yes - Here it is.
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This is why I queried the other day.
'Widow' Charlotte could just mean that - Charlotte Benjamin's status was a widow but not necessarily Joseph's widow, perhaps.
If I recall, there were two addresses on the probate.
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Thanks Martin - certificate helps a lot. And you are completely correct Heywood that Charlotte is not necessarily Joseph's widow. Does imply that Edwin was dead by 1928.
Isobel
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In the circumstances it would be a good idea to purchase a copy of Joseph Benjamin's will and see what exactly it says about the relationship between himself and Charlotte
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
from memory it costs 10 or 15 pounds.
Haven't really found much on Edwin but see a record of a Mrs Edwin Benjamin. Widow. sailing to New York in 1921 - same age as Charlotte. Possibly he died there ?
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wow i'm so impressed with you all
MBenn you dont need to worry about your auntie Maisie .
..the adoptive Hallis family were lovely and may have received the child maintenance/
the elderly couple had their eldest daughter living next door and she had 2 daughters of a similar age to Maisie
We,re not sure when she found out about her half brother
she sent for a copy of her full birth cert in 1952...i dont know if that was a coincidence
..I'm sure she would have loved to meet him too.She married into a big family the Joneses and from the 80's until recently (since the death of Olive a single child with a Roumanian father ).
My mother wishes you could have come to one of those {our the Jones /Lea Smith half siblings descendents were there}
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I'm afraid I don't think Edwin Hume Benjamin is your Edwin. He died in New York sometime between January and March 1912. In his will he leaves everything to his wife Helen A Benjamin. There is a marriage between an Edwin H Benjamin and Helen A Saxon recorded in Montclair, New Jersey in Oct 1899. In 1913 Helen Augusta Benjamin applied for a US passport saying she was the widow of Edwin H Benjamin. She was planning to travel round the world. I think she is the same person as the Mrs Edwin Benjamin Hasta mentioned in previous reply who left U.K. On the Aquitania in April 1921. When this lady arrived in New York on 1st May 1921 on the Aquitania she is down as Edwin H Benjamin ( female, widow) and gives place of birth as Brooklyn in 1880. The age tallies with Helen A Benjamin. Also she is heading for the San Remo Hotel, which is also mentioned in the 1913 passport application.
Isobel
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In the circumstances it would be a good idea to purchase a copy of Joseph Benjamin's will and see what exactly it says about the relationship between himself and Charlotte
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
from memory it costs 10 or 15 pounds.
The will might not give a relationship. Probate was granted to her so it might just say CB, executor but you won't know unless you get the will.
I would also think that the marriage details might be useful as she married as Miriam.
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An Edwin Benjamin of the correct age died in Barnet in 1917. Might be worth checking out.
Isobel
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Id be reluctant to spend £10 on a probate which may show very little
joseph was Charlottes husbands uncle
so it does imply thay there were no other Benjamins to leave the money too
was her only son "Michael Eric" not considered old enough to inherit I wonder
the marriage would be a start
if the synagogue wedding is also registered in the british bmD lists on same date
I.m having a job keepin up Ineed to write it all down somewhere ...My mum and sisters will want to see our findings this weekend
+ mum is already asking if i've completely dropped the notion that Charlotte could have been a theatre dressmaker and a" baby -placer"
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Thanks for tips Isobel ..even when its wrong it helps to eliminate
I have Ancestry so can look up the finds you made its just it takes me a long time + i have to limit my computer use .
will do some intensive work on this tomorrow before my sis arrives from Sweden on a whirlwind visit
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Well done all of you.
it is very complicated isn't it?
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An Edwin Benjamin of the correct age died in Barnet in 1917. Might be worth checking out.
Isobel
Also he is in the 1911 census living quite close to Charlotte.
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I.ll look that up
MB can you remind me what you said about Edwin being hospitalised please
Also anyone I was told that it takes a long time to convert to Judaism ..how long would Charlotte have known Edwin for their marriage to be acceptable..I wonder if it's worth looking on 1901 census for a Mariam Roberts /Robarts
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So my mother and I are giving up on the idea of Lottie the waitress/ actress / child placer being ours
As she married Edwin Benjamin in 1903 had a son with him in 1907and was living as Charlotte Benjamin in 1911
It seems unlikely
She would have returned to maiden name in 1903
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I've seen a record on Ancestry
On SS Paul
BENJAMIN Charlotte 35 +
BENJAMIN Eric Michae 11 admitted first sept 1917
title page " detained aliens held for special inquiry "
Their entries are in pen
Added under the others which are printed and have more details
Cause of detention seems to be " English " ! Unless i.m misreading it
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Her cause of detention ditto'd from above is LPC and Un. From articles on Google it seems LPC stood for ' likely public charge' and I suspect Un stood for 'unaccompanied' i.e. No spouse. It seems it was common for unaccompanied women with children to be dealt with in this way.
Isobel
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Thanks Isobel. Likely to be a charge on the state then rather than being charged for a public offence ...
I suppose during WW1 no countries wanted unaccompanied mothers ..that does imply that she hadn't followed her husband to USA
I haven't sorted out the various Edwin Home/Hume /Hymie's ..i.m hoping MBenn will tell me more when he finds out about his grandfather
I don't know which one you meant who was living nearby.in 1911
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It was Hasta who found the 1911 entry. Try looking for Edwin Benjamins on Familysearch. Alternatively Edward Benjamins on Ancestry ( mistranscribed).
I think it highly possible Edwin died in Barnet in 1917.
Don't know if you have found the main manifest entry on the St Paul for Charlotte and her son ( she is mistranscribed as Bengamin on Ancestry. This is the entry that names her sister Maria Irvine as next of kin and gives a hotel address in New York as her destination ( no mention of a husband that she is joining)
Isobel
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It must have been different document I found the other passengers entries were printed and Charlotte and Eric Michael BENJAMIn were penned underneath
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The detained aliens list is subsidiary to the main manifest.
Isobel
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I only have access to USA records from library that is what came up .I didn't see the main manifest .I.ll take another look tomorrow. Thanks for that explanation ..
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Update and another mystery
In 1939 Charlotte Benjamin b 21/4/1881 was a retired housekeeper
widowed
At 12 Dynham Road .
With 7 other women in the same household .all different surnames
Mostly domestics and housemaids .
It seems a bit strange to me
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Perhaps it was a lodging house for women.
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Electoral rolls
Residents
1939
Charlotte Benjamin, Margaret Booth, Kate Clinnick and John Courtenay Locke
1938
Charlotte Benjamin and Margaret Booth
1937
Evelyn Bayes
Charlotte Benjamin
Margaret Booth
Leonard Lauder
William Spiers , Winifred Spiers
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There were no electoral rolls during the war but in 1946
Charlotte B, Margaret B and Kate C as previous plus 3 other females.
Did Charlotte own the property? It was perhaps bedsits.
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Thanks heywood
REBECCA ROOK is listed as housekeeper first on list b1881
So i doubt if charlotte owned it
The writing was hard to readjohn courtney lock wasnt there on the register in 1939
But if men there in 1937 unlikely to be a boarding house just for women.in 1939
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I don’t know.
Charlotte wasn’t there in 1936 but Margaret Booth was there, another woman and two men -one was Leonard Lauder.
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It seems to be just women post war.
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The freelance journalist was Natalie or Vatalia ABRAHAM b.1907 single
I tried searching for her but didnt find her
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The freelance journalist at 12 Dynham Road, Natalie (or Natalia) Amelia Abraham, was a US citizen born in St Louis, 25 December 1907. My guess (only a guess) is that she had taken a lease on the house and was letting rooms to female tenants.
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Good detective work ...
Thanks
Ive messaged Charlottes legitimate grandson to ask if he knew if she owned or leased a house
Other addresses she lived at sound relatively grand too
1905. 18 sandwell mansion ..sons birth
18 manchester road
1918 returning from USA 18 manchester rd
1920s
electoral rolls and probate from josheph Benjamin 1928 was.50a portsdown road
hampstead
I wonder if he left her that house
Charlottes final address was actually
12 dynham road ( sorry, it didnt ring any bells when i found it on register)
she left £2294 in effects to her son
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After Charlotte’s death, the other women are still residents there which implies that they were living in rented accommodation - rooms/bedsits etc.
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Found
Joseph Benjamin's will/probate in south Africa records Charlotte Benjamin executor
named as neice by marriage
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91Q-N3B9-T?i=813&cc=2517051
The address at death was given as 188 Belsize road Hampstead London he didn't leave any immovable property.
Have copied this infor to.link about Benjamin family on South African board
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This could be a useful link
...
http://www.lastchancetoread.com/
For the newspaper reports
Ive not used this site yet has anyone else ?
Haven't ruled out that Charlotte also boarded baby Michael Eric out with a family while she worked
Her husband was in asylum in 1908 but I don't know how long he.d been ill
Still Really Want to know :
what she and her husband Edwin H BENjAMIN did and where they lived
Between 1900 when she was Birkenhead
He was south Africa or London
What did they doin missing years before and after Manchester marriage in 1903
Can anyone find them on electoral rolls in mManchester between 1899 to 1908?
&/or
In London before going she and young Eric Michael BENJAMIN went USA between .1903 and 1910
In USA 1914 to 1920
Told by Jewish lady that she would have had to convert to Judaism in order to marry in synagogue
And the name change from Charlotte to Miriam was also for the marriage certificate but she didn't have to use that first name after
This process of conversion usually took a couple of years
If they knew she,d had a baby before marriage her applicationwould have been refused
So it was inherited interest to keep baby Maisies a secret. From everyone including her fiancee
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I'm still trying to find gaps in my knowledge about great grandmother
Charlotte Lottie Benjamin nee Roberts
Amazing journey of discovery and possibilities so far
The DNA to grandma's birth father all links to Russians from Latvia to descendant s in USA and to her grandmother Caroline GARDNER b1859 Northamptonshire
but so far can't work out the dna links to any ROBERTS her father John was born BirkenheadCheshire
He came from a family of Welsh Carpenters
No links to her sister Mary.s family .I think the 4 Irvine children died childless
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Update
Bankruptcy report in London gazette for Edwin Hime BENJAMIN address as 16 Winchester road 1901
This was before his marriage to Charlotte in 1903
I think the address given on Charlotte + Eric's embarcation.return to UK is 18 Winchester Road ( mistranscribed as Manchester Road)
Edwin was hospitalised from July 1908 to Oct 1909 + discharged by order UNCURED .
Charlotte + Eric were living at 55 Delaware mansions Delaware road in 1911 .it sounds grand.with a domestic servant
But no sign of her sick husband
Can anyone find who was living at 16 + 18 Winchester road London NW 1901 and 1911 please.
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Electoral registers for 1911 have
no 16 Susan Gomme
Census : https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWLV-54V
no 18 Florence Gertrude Williams
Census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWLV-546
(all her boarders are i think listed separately)
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1901 - on electoral register at no 18, but in the census at 2 Gladys Road, Hampstead. Appears to hav move
Letitia Ann Marks 48 - b Manchester
Maude S Marks 23 - b Hampstead
Kate Mabel Marks 21 - b Hampstead
RG13; 126; 87; 22
18 Winchester Road is vacant
No 16
Susan Pauley 48 - widow, leting apartments, b Swavesey, Cambs
Harry Parrino 67 - boarer, b Gainsborough
Martha Hicken 34 - servant
Jane K Postaus 60 - boarder b London
Margaret E Postaus 36 - boarder b Highgate
RG13; 123; 167; 34
Also, same address, different household
Walter H Keep 41 - director of pictoral stationery b Hamspstead
Helene Keep 45 - b Germany
Fredda Keep 13 - b Islington
I suspect your relatives were sometime boarders in one of these houses
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Thanks so much Mabel
Florence Gertrude Williams the boarding house keeper
Might be a relative of the Benjamin family
As could leticia Marks
I will try +look at the originals # ancestry # just won't throw up my searches
Interesting that 1901 number 18 was empty ..that's the year that I can't find Charlotte .
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Update and another mystery
In 1939 Charlotte Benjamin b 21/4/1881 was a retired housekeeper
widowed
At 12 Dynham Road .
With 7 other women in the same household .all different surnames
Mostly domestics and housemaids .
It seems a bit strange to me
House 12 Dynham Rd
https://www.dropbox.com/s/02ifz75o24y652h/Skitch%20%281%29.png?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/02ifz75o24y652h/Skitch%20%281%29.png?dl=0)
Bottom of page click (if you don't have Dropbox)
'Or continue to website'
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Thanks cuz Ben it's nice to see what kind of house she lived in .
I did wonder if the American Journalist Amelia Abrahams had some family connection too.Charlotte and her son Eric age 13 came back from USA in1918 .
Apparently he was pleased to leave the strict Jewish school there.
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Am finally learning how to post photos
So thought I'd try and add photos of my nana & her birth father
She's on my new profile picture with my aunts and mother 1934
& ive had 3 goes reducing & uploading am beng helped by technical advisor but it may take a while
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The quality isnt good if I make it smaller
,1970 nana aged 70 ,,aunt Sylvia aged 37 ,, ,,myself age 11
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Update
Lottie had at least 4 great grandchildren 2 aer in their twenties in england
I have their names and some family photos now ...but none of Lottie
2 were older in their forties in USA I know their names but dont know what became of them ..their half uncle lost touch
There maybe another in France
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Update and thanks to all for following .
Lotties story is being adapted into audio episodes for a book,radio series & maybe film in future .
Based on fact but Lottie appears as a time traveller in her future . (My present )
Various film clips are on my Facebook pages
In 2018. I was interviewed in a BBC Shropshire radio program about the handcuff king Leo Selwyn and his partner Lottie Roberts/BOURNE.
And some of the rootschat research was referred to .
I still like the idea that this is the same lady as Lottie "Percey " in 1901
-+.my great grandmother Lottie Roberts making ends meet while her husband had a mental breakdown .
The audio book has been a long time in the making ; due to technical and living problems .
But with a bit of motivation ,a computer ,a quiet retreat + an encouraging radio presenter friend hopefully this is something that I can finally acheive during Covid 2021
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A friend made a video clip
Will it post
Its a zipfile
Story of nana.s birth father s arrest in Dundee
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Reply 79 Isabel i think you are right 1901 theatre company is the most likely candidate for both Lotties
+ A facial recognition expert who has never seen me
Conclusion : would be very surprised if ALL the People in collage were not closely related .
Which is another indication that my hunch is correct .grandsons account of our bio Lottie + some of her lifestyle choices fit .
She took her son to America and they lived in a posh hotel.
Her husband was 40 years older and she falsified her surname ...or it was mispelt ROBARTS on marriage.
Her only son was angry with her...about something.. slightly estranged .
She had probate for her deceased husbands elderly uncle ...who had other
Nephews + Neices...
Is it ok to attach collage ?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ScyqmUsuhBLqmyCk5qXoW7WuqqNzjyQP/view?usp=drivesdk
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See reply 193
Blurry photo but clearly 3 generations with the same nose !
Lottie is the 4th generation.
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Turi King has just been on radio leicester about her recent work
And answered the question about whether more of us are related to royal family than we think .
Have any Bowes Lyons descendants tested ?
(ADDED queen elizabeth wife of George 6 later known as queen mother )
Based on facial recognition Elizabeth bowes lyons daughters are highly likely to be related to nana maisies 3 girls b around 1930
3rd Cousins?
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Turi King has just been on radio leicester about her recent work
And answered the question about whether more of us are related to royal family than we think .
Have any Bowes Lyons descendants tested ?
Based on facial recognition Elizabeth bowes lyons daughters are highly likely to be related to nana maisies 3 girls b around 1930
3rd Cousins?
Bowes Lyon??
What 'facial recognition' techniques are you using here, brigidmac?
Be very careful... computer-based systems are HIGHLY UNRELIABLE.
Also I'd recommend never using a computer to adjust a face e.g. to age it, because this distorts the features of the original image.
Be aware, be careful.
D x
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elizabeth mowes lyons aka Queen mum
facial recognition techniques im husing are humasn reactions
me use a computer app LOL ROFL ha ha ha ha
nephews wife going thru treasure /memnory box i made commented oh my gosh H age 20 looks like Queen when young
i replied actually it was her sister Hazel FELL nee Jones 1927-1999 who was constantly compared to princess Elizabeth
+ among my photos people have said ..is that the queen
I.ll send you mail i sent to radio leicester with collage O elizabeth Bowes Lyon /Queen ELizabeth wife of Geoge vI
with daughters
+ my aunts ..I think Sylvia looks like me .
Nephews wife had an uncanny ability to recognise my dad as a teen ( iwouldnt have known it was him ) + see resemblance with her 5 year old son
+ she picked out photos of me + sisters A B C + my nephew + neice as toddlers and knew was who .
As youd told me its an innate skill I thought she was maybe gifted too
The other human -based technology im hoping to use in future is a certain rootchatter expert
in facial recognition
+ the wonderful rootschatters on the photo recognition + dating forum who give personal opinion about ages and knowledgeable clues about clothes background objects + social history habits
sorry if you had to wait for answer yestrday had some unexpected changes & i nearly missed lunch which effects my functioning abilities
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Hi Brigid.
On searching the GRO records I have a match for Jessie Smith - Born Swansea 1906
Fathers name Herbert Smith - A professional conjurer and illusionist of 122 Weston Street.
Mothers name - Alice Smith, formerly Bourne
Hope this helps.
Beccy
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thanks beccy i dont think the name Alice has come up before as an alias in any of those news reports
but would have to reread all the 100 year search for nana year topic and all the posts in
"What happened to the babies "
altrnatively i could contact Richard Tisdale to request his notes on Charlotte Bourne which will be structured and on some kind of file .probably on a chart he is a historian and seasoned producer after all .he had access to national archive but i dont think he ever sent for Jessie Smith's birth certificate because the radio show was finished by the time I'd confirmed her identity and found descendants
only a 10th of findings were used on the radio series .
address sounds familiar again would need a clever organised person to note all addresses of babies wanted or offered and court case
my Time TRavel detective young assistant has taken time out for college and personal issues ..just when all theses amazing developments are being made + i have eyestrain so am typing blind again
today is comedy asylum
the 1906 arrest went down really well last week and i will do it at face to face workshop on monday as time travellling charlotte .
there are various videos of her floating around on FB FEELGOOD page ( in my body + clothes )I.m not sure if my film maker friend posted hers they had to be private til her project was finishe but it was based in loughborough steam train station }
anyway im rambling ..(.manic phase nearly over ..will people please refrain from copying chunks of what i write because i will look back later +abridge )
TIME TRAVEL GRAN monologues will be on these lines :
.".Mrs BENJAMIN if you please
AND im a respectable woman AND i'm not dead yet
well not in 1941 whatever year is it now ? Dont tell me when I die Id rather not know ill health
is a worry .
+ these newspapers are objectionable themselves
tainting names and reputations
+ they are always reporting and giving entertainers a bad name
Herbert SMITH + Lottie BOURNE were philanthropists ..saving many a wee babe from workhouse and the young mothers from a life of shame .. mary was ready to jump to the depths of the Mersey
Many people stood up at the trial ..I read the accounts of the people they aided .
what do judges + jury know about dire circumstances
working ladies need good homes for their babies
as for puritanical Dundee 1906
there is absolutly nothing "objectionable "about the human form in Art ...
My George was a gentleman and he did NOT a persecution complex he was persecuted because of his Jewish origins .
you look at the advert for Pears soap ..1906
is that "indelicate ."..
the statue of the Thinker obscene ?
. fiddlesticks !
here in 1942...we. are bioad minded
Are you ?
i dont know where scots annie rootschatter has gone
I used to practise my sketches over phone with her before performances .