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Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: auntie bertie on Thursday 11 December 14 15:00 GMT (UK)
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Looking for any info on Phillip Hart - b 1863, married Miriam Harris 1885 and died 1918. London. No trace of him in any census prior to marriage. His father is Barnett Hart and his mother is Emma. No marriage records that I can find for these two either.
He also went under the name Thomas Robinson....for some reason!
Does anyone have any info please? He was Jewish.
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On the census after marriage what is his birthplace?
Parents may have married in another country.
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After his marriage all the census are in his alternate name of Thomas Robinson. They all say born Aldgate 1863. I have sent off for the only Phillip Hart born in Aldgate in that year, and it is the wrong one. He was in the pub business so I believe that he only went to his alternate name when older. His marriage cert is def in the name of Phillip Hart.
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I wonder if he really was born in London. That might just be the place he arrived at :-\
How do we know his mother was called Emma if no birth for him or marriage for parents?
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In his will: "to my mother Emma Hart the sum of one hundred pounds"....
Barnett Hart was already dead by time of marriage in 1885.
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Which birth did you get that was wrong?
There's one Sep 1861 Mile End Old Town
or
Sep 1863 Whitechapel
There's a Phillip age 9 in Aldgate in 1871 with older sisters Hannah - Esther - Rebecca - Sarah.
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In his will: "to my mother Emma Hart the sum of one hundred pounds"....
Right thanks that's interesting. So his mother was still alive - she must be on a census, what is her birthplace?
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This one has a mother Emma Hart but all Essex based so probably wrong family :(
1871
Henry Hart 47
Emma 41
George 19
David 15
Emma 10
Phillip 8
Walter 6
Harry 3
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There's a family tree which has a sister for Phillip - Elizabeth born Whitechapel 1879.
Marriage to Abraham Barnett 1904.
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I sent off for the 1863 Whitechapel one. That one was Phillip son of Michael and Sarah (so that ties in with 71 and 81 records)
There is no census that I have found with Phillip living with daddy Barnett and mummy Emma!
I also checked that Essex one wondering whether it could be in the right area but Billericay is a bit far out
He also has a sister called Elizabeth (as he leaves her money in the will too). She is the wife of an Abraham Barnett in 1918. There is a 1911 census with Abraham and Elizabeth Barnett, and 3 children; but again I cannot find a married between Abraham Barnett and Elizabeth Hart so I have no idea of her DoB. That is my tree you have found!
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Yes they all seem to eliminate themselves don't they :(
I saw the 1911 but the hints on ancestry lead back to an Elizabeth Isaacs.
Dec 1903 marriage London C includes the names
Abraham Barnett
Elizabeth Isaacs
Is that her or a different woman.
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Just to throw the cat among the pigeons Elizabeth Isaacs parents are called Aaron and Esther and she names her children Aaron and Esther!
Can't be a coincidence can it :-X
Will leave you with that thought whilst I get dinner :)
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I have seen people turning up on the census as visitors and also showing on their own address, could this be Phillip Hart visitor in 1901 census-
131 St.George Street St.George in the East - Public House
Albert Hartmann 31 Lic. Vict. born Germany
Emilie 30
Phillip Hart 35 visitor born England
Jennifer
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Thanks Jennifer but that isn't him. In 1901 he is under his alter-ego with wife and 4 daughters at his pub in Shoreditch.
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I have seen many people on the census twice. He may have been away that night and he was just put on his own schedule as head of the household.
Jennifer
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Interesting - it could be him visiting another pub owning friend - and Phillip is spelt with 2 'll's which he was very insistent about! Unfortunately it just has is place of birth as England!
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Perhaps you might consider this family:
1861
St Botolph without, Aldgate
10 Little Somerset Street
Barnett HART, Head, Married, 65, Clothier, born Whitechapel, Middlesex
Catherine, Wife, Married, 50, born Bishopsgate, London
Emma, Daur, Unmarr, 23, Dressmaker, born Christchurch, Middlesex
Esther, Daur, Unmarr, 20, Tailoress, born Smithfield
Rebecca, Daur, Unmarr, 20, Tailoress, born Smithfield
Sarah, Daur, Unmarr, 18, Tailoress, born Christchurch, Middlesex
Class: RG 9; Piece: 210; Folio: 109; Page: 46
1871
Aldgate, London
10 Little Somerset Street
Hannah HART, Lodger, Unmarr, 31, Dressmaker, born Spitalfields
Esther HART, Sister, 30, Tailoress, born Spitalfields
Rebecca HART, Sister, 28, Tailoress, born Spitalfields
Sarah HART, Sister 26, Tailoress, born Spitalfields
Phillip HART, Brother, 9, born Spitalfields
Class: RG10; Piece: 413; Folio: 26; Page: 45
Perhaps I am being overly skeptical, but I don't believe that Phillip was a brother, but more likely a son of one of the girls. I wonder if Hannah and Emma the same person? Emma doesn't appear in 1851.
This is an odd sort of family (of course ;D ) - the next census back in 1851 notes that Esther and Rebecca are twins and it is easy enough to find their birth reg at East London in 1840. However in 1871 they seem to have forgotten that they were twins. Mother Catherine's age seems to fluctuate a bit as well.
Debra :D
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Can I also suggest that you ask a moderater to move this thread over to perhaps the London board where you might get more people looking?
Debra :D
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Thanks for the suggestions. I put it here because I hoped that someone with Jewish ancestry may know of any other data sources other than the census records.
Thank you Dundee for those records, I had discounted that one as I was looking for Barnett and Emma together. Barnett was a tailor according to the wedding cert, so this could be him. I have been through every census and there appear to be 6 people with the name Barnett Hart around at that time! And I thought it would be an easy one to find!
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The marriage cert. shows Barnett as a Clothier, that is why he caught my eye - it is Miriam's father who is the Tailor.
Yes, there are a lot of Barnett HARTs ;D
Have you followed up on the licensed victualler angle? Phillip would have to apply for his licence and there may be some mention of the use of the two names. It would be interesting just to see what name he used to obtain the licence.
City of Westminster Archives Centre
Petty sessions are a valuable source for locating ancestors who were licencees. Licensing registers normally show date and particulars of the licence, name and address of the public house, name of licensee, date and details of transfers of the licence, disqualification of the premises, and a record of any convictions. A full list of our holdings of Petty Sessions records, including alehouse licensing can be found in Courts of Law section of our Guide to Holdings. Licensing records can also be found in Westminster Quarter Sessions and the Middlesex Sessions which are held by the London Metropolitan Archives
https://www.westminster.gov.uk/family-history-education-and-business-records
http://www.rootschat.com/links/018yu/
Perhaps ask on the London board if anyone has access to these records.
Debra :D
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Thanks for suggestions. I went up to London yesterday to the LMA archives; but unfortunately they had no data.
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This is an old post which I have just stumbled across. I too am researching this family. Phillip is undoubtedly the son of one of the sisters in the 1871 census, but he might not have known it. I cannot find a marriage which fits in. Some of the daughters can be found in the New Synagogue birth records. Unfortunately, there are missing marriage records of Catherine and Barnet (Baruch) HART from the New Synagogue registers.
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Hi, With the new mother maiden name info on gov records I can confirm that Barnett's wife was Catherine Allen ( I have cross referenced it with several of her daughters - esp Priscilla which is a pretty unusual name!)
I still feel that it was Emma/Hannah who was Phillip's mother. I have her marrying Thomas Mihill and Phillip is with her (using the surname Mihill in 1881 at Rectory Cottage, 51 Rectory Road,,Bethnal Green Mile End Old Town, London, England)
I don't think Barnett Hart existed.
He was Emma/Hannah's father - therefore Phillip's grandfather.
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Thank you for your reply, Interesting that you think Emma/Hannah is Phillips Mother. I need to do some deep digging, There is information about Pricilla, the name was passed down in the family, one of the sisters Elizabeth nee Hart who married Abraham Lee called one of her daughters Pricilla. This is my maternal line so really interested. The GRO cross checking facility is really a life saver. :)