RootsChat.Com

England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: karen58 on Tuesday 13 January 15 04:19 GMT (UK)

Title: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: karen58 on Tuesday 13 January 15 04:19 GMT (UK)

Saddleworth Historical Society describes Saddleworth as 'in the township of Quick'. However, other sites state Quick was the Medieval name for Saddleworth - so this is confusing me. Then it continues to describe it as a parish.

It then states that it is 2 miles from Dobcross - but I thought Dobcoss was in Saddleworth.

On another page of the Saddleworth Historical Society, Saddleworth is described as 'Historically, a Township' and 'a Chapelry within the parish of Rochdale'.

The FamilySearch website describes Saddleworth cum Quick, as 'a parochial chapelry in the parish of Rochdale'

Is there a significant difference between Chapelries and parochial chapelries?

I though a chapelry was a chapel of ease connected to the mother church which saved people traveling to the mother church to go to Sunday service.

I thought a parochial chapelry was able to perform marriages. Is this true? I assumed this because of all the marriages performed at Saddleworth St Chad's.

I am getting more confused as the FamilySearch sebsite states that Saddleworth St Chad's  is 'just across the Yorkshire/Lancashire border (in Lancashire)'. But I thought that Saddleworth St Chad's was in Uppermill which appears to be in Yorkshire to me.

I have a baptism record for 1741 sourced from Ancestry.com. It is a Bishops Transcription of Baptisms, Burials and Marriages in Saddleworth from 1740 to 1749. Ancestry.com has recorded the Parish as 'Saddleworth, Lancashire, England'.

But isn't Saddleworth in Yorkshire?

I would be very grateful if someone could clarify these points.

Regards
Karen
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: BumbleB on Tuesday 13 January 15 09:10 GMT (UK)
As I understand it, "Saddleworth is an area and parish, comprising the villages of Delph, Diggle, Dobcross, Denshaw, Greenfield and Uppermill" (from the entry for Saddleworth Museum).

Also have a look at GENUKI - Yorkshire - where there is a section devoted to Saddleworth.

The area used to be in the West Riding of Yorkshire, but with boundary changes in the 20th century it was moved to Lancashire  :o :o
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: KGarrad on Tuesday 13 January 15 09:45 GMT (UK)
Saddleworth these days is part of Rochdale.

GenUKI says:

"SADDLEWORTH, in the township of Quick, and parish of Rochdale, (Lanc.) Agbrigg-division of Agbrigg and Morley, liberty of Pontefract; 2 miles from Dobcross, 9 from Rochdale, (Lanc.) 12 from Huddersfield and Manchester, (Lanc.) The Church is a perpetual curacy, in the deanry of Pontefract, value, p.r. !108. Patron, the Vicar of Rochdale."

"QUICK, in the parish of Rochdale, (Lanc.) Agbrigg-division of Agbrigg and Morley, liberty of Pontefract; 3 miles SSW. of Dobcross, 9 miles from Rochdale, (Lanc.) 11 from Manchester, (ditto) 15 from Huddersfield. Pop. 13,902."

See: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Rochdale/SaddleworthHistory.html
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: stanmapstone on Tuesday 13 January 15 09:56 GMT (UK)
If you go to http://is.gd/4ScFCn and put Saddleworth in the search box you will get a map showing the boundaries of the parish c1851. Clicking on 'Map' shows the present county boundaries, and 'Ordnance Survey' the original county boundaries.

Stan
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: karen58 on Tuesday 13 January 15 22:12 GMT (UK)
Dear Stan

Thank you so much for the link to the map. The various overlays make it all so clear. Wish I had it 12 months ago when I first started researching.

Saddleworth is certainly in Yorkshire so I am still confused why the baptism record is Saddleworth Lancashire.

Do you know if it is because the record is a Bishops Transcription and held in Lancashire?

Thank you again
Karen
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: KGarrad on Tuesday 13 January 15 22:26 GMT (UK)
We have to separate the town of Saddleworth from the parish of Saddleworth! ;D
Separate the civil from the ecclesiastical. ;D ::)

The town was historically in the West Riding of Yorkshire until 1972 when it became part of the Metropolitan Borough of Oldham, in the Metropolitan County of Greater Manchester.

Sadleworth as a chapelry and parish has always been linked with the parish of Rochdale; which is in Lancashire.


So, I suspect that parish and church records are recorded as being in Lancashire?!
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: stanmapstone on Tuesday 13 January 15 23:04 GMT (UK)
Although the Historic Parish of Rochdale was mainly in Lancashire, the township of Saddleworth with Quick was in Rochdale Parish, but in Yorkshire. The History Data Service produce an electronic map of the Boundaries of the Historic Parishes before 1850, which I have, but I am not allowed to attach a map showing the boundaries on RootsChat.

Stan
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 13 January 15 23:43 GMT (UK)
We have to separate the town of Saddleworth from the parish of Saddleworth! ;D
Separate the civil from the ecclesiastical. ;D ::)

The town was historically in the West Riding of Yorkshire until 1972 when it became part of the Metropolitan Borough of Oldham, in the Metropolitan County of Greater Manchester.

Sadleworth as a chapelry and parish has always been linked with the parish of Rochdale; which is in Lancashire.


So, I suspect that parish and church records are recorded as being in Lancashire?!

Glad you changed the info in reply #2. Saddleworth is not 'in Rochdale these days'. It is part of Oldham Metropolitan Borough.

Nor is it a town.   ;) The historical records and descriptions are very confusing though, that's true.

It has some lovely scenery - green hills and valleys and also wild moorland and bog.

Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: libby9 on Wednesday 14 January 15 03:00 GMT (UK)
According to this site it's in Yorkshire

http://whiterose.saddleworth.net/stillpart.htm

And some different opinions....  http://oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news-headlines/12193/yorkshire-day-draws-3500

The Saddleworth Parish Council website - displaying the white rose and saying county of York..... http://www.saddleworthparishcouncil.org.uk/
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: dobfarm on Wednesday 14 January 15 04:39 GMT (UK)
Rochdale parish is that part of Lancashire, of the ancient county of York, (in the [ Derbyshire} high peaks Moors) of the 1974 boundaries of metropolitan councils of Rochdale, Calderdale, Oldham, Kirklees and Tameside

 http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Misc/Maps/WRYParishes.gif

Dates back to the Roses War of the houses of York and Lancaster

http://whiterose.saddleworth.net/stillpart.htm

(In short basic terms the West side of the moors are now run by to Lancashire, [ except Derbyshire Glossop area West side of the moor] & Cheshire and the East side of the moors are run by North / West / South Yorkshire & Derbyshire)

1850 map border undefined

http://maps.nls.uk/view/102345136
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: libby9 on Wednesday 14 January 15 05:54 GMT (UK)
Great map, Dobby  :)
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: dobfarm on Wednesday 14 January 15 07:09 GMT (UK)
Gets very confusing when you see Greater Manchester on the side of buses in Huddersfield and Halifax on the side buses in Burnley and Rochdale end even worse Huddersfield buses in Manchester and Oldham

Greater County of the pink rose of the house of 'Quick' (Quickshire)
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: dobfarm on Saturday 17 January 15 02:48 GMT (UK)
interesting article -modern - quick

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/huddersfield-key-part-northern-powerhouse-7313011
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: Tra La La on Thursday 12 February 15 18:16 GMT (UK)
Saddleworth is still in Yorkshire.  The area is administered by Oldham Council, 53 percent of the area is in Yorkshire and 47 percent is in Lancashire.  For clarity the Council have in the last five years added the White Rose of Yorkshire to all the Saddleworth District signs, plus there is one on the A62 at the Standedge Cutting and one as you leave the M62 and head towards Saddleworth and Oldham.  There are those who confuse the Counties with administrative areas.
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: dobfarm on Friday 13 February 15 04:29 GMT (UK)
In that case we'll do a swap with Lancashire, they can have Saddleworth and we'll have Oldham town and we might get a tram service direct to Oldham through the unused Standedged tunnels then. Oldham have the best market and shopping centre.  ;D ;D ;D ;D or better still make Kirklees council (Nobody knows where it is anyway) administered Oldham  :)
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: libby9 on Friday 13 February 15 05:12 GMT (UK)
Dobby, noooooooooooo

Saddleworth is a lovely YORKSHIRE town, and we MUST keep it in Yorks!  :)

Must say I rue the day Huddersfield lost it's council to become Kirklees.  Hudds was Hudds when I was a gal, never heard of Kirklees in the good old days. 

And swap with Lancs, never!  I'm a proud Yorkshire lass, the biggest and best county in the whole of England  ;)  Well, apart from Cornwall, Devon, Norfolk and others that is  ;D
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: dobfarm on Friday 13 February 15 07:12 GMT (UK)
Ok! Libby! If we have 53% of Oldham already, we'll sharpen the old spears, do a midnight raid and nick the other 47% off Lancashire.  ;D (They do the best Muffin chip butties there in Oldham)  :D

 Kirklees Hall is at Cooper-bridge M62 Junction and was the big estate with the Ramsden/Armitage/Kaye & Beaumont families at Whitley Hall and Woodsome Hall that between them controlled most of Huddersfield and Dewsbury in days of old-Hence its name. Kirklees (Time of the Roses wars)
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: karen58 on Friday 13 February 15 07:52 GMT (UK)
Hello Dobfarm

I am not even from Saddleworth but I hope Saddleworth always remains in Yorkshire. My 2n & 3rd Great Grandfathers were born there and I am very proud of that.

Cheers Karen
Vicariously a Yorkshire Lass
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: RuslanPashayev on Sunday 22 October 17 01:56 BST (UK)
My name is Ruslan, and I am a wrestling scholar.
Looks like they had some really good wrestlers over there in Saddleworth...famous Yorkshire Hug etc,but the style those wrestlers practiced was known under the name of Lancashire Wrestling or simply catch-as-catch-can. I believe local wrestlers were under the strong influence of so-called Oldhamites, who were well known as one of the best wrestling schools in the Lancashire County.
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: dobfarm on Sunday 22 October 17 07:20 BST (UK)
If you zoom in or out on the skyline you can see the Saddle (taken from Park lane Castle hill Huddersfield) Which is Westnab and Shooters hill above Meltham Huddersfield.

Behind the Saddle is Wessenden moor and Saddleworth moor.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.615892,-1.7843764,3a,18.5y,248.83h,91.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snFSPhzcchZbfI9QEv_Cilg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Ps;- Point of interest -behind the Saddle is where yet unfound body of Keith Bennett ( victim of Ian Brady moors murders) is supposed buried and where flowers are put each year by the carpark at Wessenden head by his family

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5648434,-1.88508,3a,44y,228.58h,80.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3Cgo05mHktm94gugTPMLLQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: Tra La La on Sunday 22 October 17 11:08 BST (UK)
The villages of Saddleworth are in Yorkshire, despite what ignorant Estate Agents might put in their descriptions.  The local Authority (Oldham) installed district signs to clarify that the Saddleworth villages are in Yorkshire - hence the White Rose on every sign. In addition the Saddleworth White Rose Society, fundraised and build boundary signs, as did the Lancashire Society.  The best examples may be seen at Grains Bar, where all three signs may be seen by the turn of the head.
There is no doubt that 53% of the borough of Oldham is in Yorkshire, and only 47% is in Lancashire.  The Saddleworth villages of Delph, Dobcross, Denshaw, Greenfield and Uppermill are in Yorkshire and most properties are built of Yorkshire stone, whereas if you drive towards Oldham itself, you will see mainly brick properties.
Saddleworth has beautiful scenery, Oldham has takeaways and access to the Metro.
Tra La La
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: heywood on Sunday 22 October 17 11:32 BST (UK)
Oh Ruslan,

What have you done  ;)

Heywood
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: Treetotal on Sunday 22 October 17 11:48 BST (UK)
This has sparked my interest as my DIL is from Rochdale and when she was pregnant with her first child...her Father insisted that his first born Grandson should be a Lancastrian so she had him in Oldham  ::) ;D ;D ;D Son is Yorkshire born and bred but now lives in Lincolnshire where his two Daughters were born, uncontested by his Lancastrian FIL. My Grandson always says that he was originally from Oldham but he only lived there for 10 days.
I'm proud to be a Yorkshire Lass as are my Son, now living in Sleaford Lincolnshire and Daughter now living in Colwall, Worcestershire ;D ;D

Carol
 
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: jess5athome on Sunday 22 October 17 13:08 BST (UK)
The villages of Saddleworth are in Yorkshire, despite what ignorant Estate Agents might put in their descriptions...The Saddleworth villages of Delph, Dobcross, Denshaw, Greenfield and Uppermill are in Yorkshire and most properties are built of Yorkshire stone, whereas if you drive towards Oldham itself, you will see mainly brick properties.
Saddleworth has beautiful scenery, Oldham has takeaways and access to the Metro.
Tra La La



I very nearly fell off of my chair  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Frank (Yorkshire born)
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: RuslanPashayev on Sunday 22 October 17 13:59 BST (UK)
Going to make a post...on Saddleworth based Upper Mill Rushbearing festival known as Rushcarts !!!
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: heywood on Sunday 22 October 17 14:20 BST (UK)
That might be better  :)
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: RuslanPashayev on Sunday 22 October 17 14:26 BST (UK)
FOR PEOPLE WITH GOOD SENSE OF HUMOR. PLEASE SEE THE ATTACHMENT BELOW.
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: dobfarm on Sunday 22 October 17 16:50 BST (UK)
As new kids on the block Huddersfield town totally shattered Manchester United's glass reputation with a --- 1 ozs sledge hammer ;D ;D ;D in the Premier league yesterday ~ there could be all out War of the Roses in Oldham (Saddleworth) with them sign posts.

 :D

Even Leeds United fans were shouting Huddersfield in Leeds centre yesterday evening and that's a first !!.
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: Maiden Stone on Monday 23 October 17 06:58 BST (UK)
Just to clarify, especially for our American visitor:
1. The "War of the Roses" was not a war about where boundaries should be between Lancashire and Yorkshire. It was a dynastic dispute about ruling England, a.k.a. "The Cousins' War". Supporters of the House of Lancaster v. supporters of House of York. 
2. The World Black Pudding Throwing Championship, held annually in Ramsbottom in Lancashire (not in Greater Manchester which is an administrative entity) does not commemorate the Wars of the Roses when the respective armies of Lancashire and Yorkshire, having run out of arrows and other ammunition, hurled black puddings and Yorkshire puddings at each other across the county border. That would have required another army (of women, no doubt) to cook aforesaid weapons.  ;D Thought I would mention this event in case anyone is thinking of writing a treatise on it. It's already in a book of ancient customs.  ???  ::) ;D
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: RuslanPashayev on Monday 23 October 17 14:38 BST (UK)
Dear Sir/Madam, thanks for sharing with me that info, appreciate,but my concern isn't about local history or geography.My inquiry or better say subject is solely about - the local style of wrestling and if you have any info on the "folk style" wrestling which was practiced in West Riding Yorkshire please let me know I would highly appreciate that. Have a wonderful day. Kind regards, Ruslan
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: Tra La La on Monday 23 October 17 15:50 BST (UK)
Sorry, I cannot help you with your wrestling research, other than to say that long term Huddersfield resident Douglas Clark (from Maryport originally) was a champion Cumberland Wrestler in addition to being a top Rugby League player.
Good luck with your research.
Tra La La
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: dobfarm on Monday 23 October 17 16:24 BST (UK)
Well we have the 'Wellie wanging' world championship later an informal Compo chucking competition  in Holmfirth ( Holmfirth was in Almondbury parish along with Saddleworth) a suppose as type of wrestling. thar noo'as ;D

A lot of people don't know where 'Quick village' actually is:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Quick,+Greenfield,+Ashton-under-Lyne+OL5+9BN/@53.5297998,-2.0343769,15.45z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x487bc86ca94573bf:0x3ba567bbfb64a6bd!8m2!3d53.530401!4d-2.031835
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: RuslanPashayev on Monday 23 October 17 16:38 BST (UK)
Thanks Appreciate, and yeah Doug Clark was Great Cumberland Style Champion and later All-in Champion Wrestler of England !!!
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: dobfarm on Monday 23 October 17 16:58 BST (UK)
Found a little bit on wrestling Lanc's but only a place

In 1863, Martin and his wife took over the Royal Oak pub and, in the 20 acres of land around it, created an enclosed running track, horse trotting course and wrestling arena.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/how-failsworth-became-the-athletics-capital-862146
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: RuslanPashayev on Monday 23 October 17 17:07 BST (UK)
Yeah Royal Oaks was one of the centers of the local championship wrestling. Other centers were arenas at Audenshaw, Higginshaw, Newton Heath, Salford etc. Thanks for sharing, appreciate.
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: Rena on Monday 23 October 17 18:47 BST (UK)
Sorry, I cannot help you with your wrestling research, other than to say that long term Huddersfield resident Douglas Clark (from Maryport originally) was a champion Cumberland Wrestler in addition to being a top Rugby League player.
Good luck with your research.
Tra La La

Cumberland Wrestling was the competition style that used to be held at the Annual Fair I took my children to which was held at Stonefold, Haslingden in the Rossendale Valley, Lancashire.   
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: RuslanPashayev on Tuesday 24 October 17 00:39 BST (UK)
Hello Rena,
thanks so much for your reply appreciate that a lot !!!
Cumberland Wrestling at Haslingden thats a big surprise to me...I need to find their programs and ads, which decade was that? How long ago? Do you have any pics of it??? That style was known as Border Style or Northern Counties Style, classy back hold first down to lose. I had no clue it was practiced in Bacup areas...I thought that Rochdale and surrouding towns had their own wrestling style catch-as-catch-can...also known as Lancashire wrestling, I wonder which style was historically practiced in West Riding...thanks again, great information !!! Kind regards, Ruslan
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: Rena on Tuesday 24 October 17 01:53 BST (UK)
Hello Rena,
thanks so much for your reply appreciate that a lot !!!
Cumberland Wrestling at Haslingden thats a big surprise to me...I need to find their programs and ads, which decade was that? How long ago? Do you have any pics of it??? That style was known as Border Style or Northern Counties Style, classy back hold first down to lose. I had no clue it was practiced in Bacup areas...I thought that Rochdale and surrouding towns had their own wrestling style catch-as-catch-can...also known as Lancashire wrestling, I wonder which style was historically practiced in West Riding...thanks again, great information !!! Kind regards, Ruslan

I've lost a few grey cells I'm afraid, so can't give definitive answers.  I probably saw advertising posters stuck to lampposts, etc.

I've looked on Google maps to see if I can jog my memory of which farm land the fairs/fetes were held on hoping to see the uphill path we climbed to get to the field but I've drawn a blank.

A shopping precinct opened up a few decades ago which has expanded quite a lot.  The fair/fete was accessed from where the car park is now.  Look at google map for "Winfields, Acre, Rossendale", which is on the A680 near Haslingden.  A few farms are shown behind Winfields.
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: RuslanPashayev on Tuesday 24 October 17 03:22 BST (UK)
Rena,
thanks so much again appreciate.
its interesting that they called it "cumberland wrestling" because traditional cumberland/westmorland style which is backhold first down to lose isnt practiced in south lancashire which rochdale towns belong to...i mean all those places from rossendale as well, for many centuries they had their own style...i would call it a south lancashire wrestling, it was different from cumberland, since they didnt have an initial hold...like cumberland wrestlers do...it basically was impromptu style and yeah wrestling on the ground and the holds of opponents legs were allowed...2 of 3 falls.I wonder what kind of Cumberland wrestling was practiced in Haslingden???
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: Rena on Tuesday 24 October 17 11:32 BST (UK)
Sorry - not an expert in Cumberland wrestling.  The only thing I recall is the referee announcing the rules (unfortunately I can't recall them) and wrestlers dressed in white.  The main thing I do remember is their first hold and that the men faced each other then each man wrapped his arms around the opponent's body and firmly clasped hands with hooked fingers. 
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: RuslanPashayev on Tuesday 24 October 17 13:38 BST (UK)
brilliant thats perfect description of Cumberland wrestling, they have whats called the initial hold...which is a back-hold the way you described it, do you remember if wrestling on the ground was allowed, or they were standing wrestling only...its interesting that at Rossendale local fair they had a Northern Counties style,I am surprised...
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: RuslanPashayev on Tuesday 24 October 17 13:39 BST (UK)
when was it??? 60s? 70s??
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: Rena on Tuesday 24 October 17 16:10 BST (UK)
when was it??? 60s? 70s??

1970s-1980s. I think from 1990 I was probably ferrying offspring to athletic clubs.

Sorry again - can't recall if there was any groundwork.
Title: Re: Saddleworth - Where and What is it?
Post by: RuslanPashayev on Tuesday 24 October 17 16:13 BST (UK)
thanks appreciate