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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Caithness => Topic started by: searchr on Thursday 22 January 15 03:01 GMT (UK)
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I would love some help in tracing John SMALL. He was b in Caithness about 1838, but can't be the one I come across e.g. here: http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=small32 (http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=small32)
who was the son of a John Small and Jane CALDER, because that John Small m Louisa MUNROE 1862 and was still in Caithness in 1871 and later, whereas my John SMALL married Harriet MARKWELL in Queensland, Australia 9 Oct 1863 and stayed in Australia in Queensland and later New South Wales.
That is, unless he was a sailor and had a family in each port. His father was a sailmaker and fisherman, but I don't know his father's name.
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Hi searchr
There was a Small family in the 1851 Census living in Pulteney 88 Kinneard St Caithness.
John 52 sea man b Watten
Janet 21 dau b Wick - no occupation given- must have been at home :-\
John 13 son b "
Vellum 12 son b Wick
Isabella 11 dau b Wick
The wife/mother must have died :-\ John, Vellum and Isabella were all 'at school'
When did your John arrive in Australia?
Anyway, something to consider ;)
Joy
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sounds wonderfully promising!
Thanks so much.
I just have this niggling thought, though. Following through on all the censuses e.g. on freecen, there only ever seems to be the one John Small that age, with birth & census counties Caithness, the one who's married Louisa on the 1871, and it seems visiting on the 1861. Also, allowing for children going away/ marrying, that does roughly seem to be the family from worldconnect, with mother Jean (Jane Calder?) on the 1841.
I don't know when he came to Australia, other than the marriage. I'm wondering if he might have been crew rather than passenger. Maybe he just sailed away with his family as a baby. I responded in this thread too: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=699715.0 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=699715.0)
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Do his Australian Marriage/Death Cert not have any extra info?
Trish :)
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There are various trees on ancestry which state John Small was bc.1840 Gorbals, Lanarkshire??
How do you know your John came from Caithness and his fathers occupation?
Annette
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The Gorbals John Small would seem to make sense. According to 1841/1851 census his parents were David Small and wife Margaret (she's not around 1851 so possibly died). David Small was indeed a Sailmaker and he himself was born in Wick, Caithness.
I note that John and Harriets first son was named David, which is following the Scottish naming tradition of naming first born son after paternal grandfather.
As you yourself have discovered there was only the one John Small in Caithness itself born that time and he remained in Scotland.
Presumably 'Caithness' and 'Sailmaker' have come from family legend, and it looks like it was John's father, and not himself, who was from Wick, Caithness and a Sailmaker.
David's aged varies greatly i.e. 1841 ca.1811, 1851 ca.1803, 1861 ca.1813! He died in 1866 Clyde, Lanarkshire (mmn shown as Tait) aged 60? (bc.1806). However, familysearch shows that David Small was bp.29/3/1801 Wick, Caithness, son of David Small and Janet Tait.
This appears to be your family.
Annette
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From familysearch, David Small married Margaret Sutherland 14/11/1834 Wick, Caithness - 3 children shown in 1851:Jean 15, David 13 and John 11. Firstborn Jean shown born Wick, Caithness ca.1835/6 and then they moved to Glasgow by the time David born circa 1837/8 and John ca.1839/40 born.
So, yes, family originated in Caithness but left there ca.1836 for Glasgow where sons David and John were born.
Annette
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David Small senior married Jannet Tait 24/11/1796 Watten, Caithness.
They were both still alive at Wick in 1851 and David shown bc.1778 Ceres, Fifeshire and Janet bc.1775 Watten, Caithness (where they married). David Small senior was a farmer.
Annette
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Thanks all! It all makes sense now. David Small and Jannet Tait are the parents of John Small & Jane Calder in the tree above, and David Small and Margaret Sutherland and children, including the John I now believe is mine, are on it too, with no more information about my John other than the birth you worked out in Gorbals.
The birth in Caithness and the sailmaker and fisherman info about his father is from his New South Wales death certificate in 1917. The informant was son David. Before I read all of your extra info, I'd just worked out that I should get his marriage certificate too. I will.
This is amazing! I'm so glad I put in the query and that you all did so much. Thanks again.
If I mark this completed by pressing the button, what does this really mean? Can posts from me and others still be added? Is it just moved to a different section? Will it still come up in searches?
I do still want to know how he got here and don't think the marriage certificate will help with that. If I posted about that, where do you think it should go? I know he ended up in Queensland, but don't know to which state he actually emigrated or the place the journey started.
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Hi searchr
You can post the request for emigration on the Australia board...there are some super
sleuths on there ;D
Just put a link to this thread for background ;)
Joy
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Thanks again: will do (and will press button!)
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To searchr, JOHN SMALL [my wife's GG Grandfather] came out to Brisbane as a sailor I believe on "THE CITY OF BRISBANE"...the same ship THOMAS MARKWELL and his family did including HARRIETT MARKWELL in 1862,who then married JOHN SMALL in 1863 in SOUTH BRISBANE!
I have not been able to get any records from the Qld Government ,which is strange as I can get records of passengers fom the "CHASTLEY" in the 1840's which carried THOMAS MARKWELL 's siblings?.
THOMAS MARKWELL died in a tree felling accident just after the family got to Brisbane!
I am not sure where you are but if you are in Scotland ,maybe you can find some shipping records regarding the "CITY OF BRISBANE" over in England[I believe that is where she sailed from.
JOHN SMALL is buried in Murwillumbah Cemetery[age 78 in 1917] while the MARKWELLs are a well known family in Brisbane,saying that his son ISAAC is buried at Lutwyche Cemetery, Brisbane and his granddaughter VIOLET LUTISHA SMALL married WALTER PARRY at LISMORE N.S.W.
Would appreciate it if you could list JOHN SMALL"s parents as I got a bit confused after reading the messages...Regards Medusa ::)
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great to hear from you Medusa!
I'm in Brisbane.
John Small's parents seem to be David Small and Margaret Sutherland and his grandparents seem to be John Small and Jannet Tait.
Why do you think he came on the City of Brisbane? It would make such sense if it was true. There are records on microfilm and cards at the Queensland State Archives in their shipping section about the City of Brisbane, including crew who signed on at Plymouth. John Small wasn't on that list, but it does look as if there was a fold in the original where you can't see what was written. Maybe he got on somewhere else. There's also information there about an enquiry about the City of Brisbane, but Thomas Markwell's testimony seems to be missing. I've now learned there's an inquest there into Thomas's death, but I haven't looked at that yet.
Bill Barlow wrote a book about the voyage of the City of Brisbane, in more than 1 edition, that's in the Brisbane City Council Library and the Queensland State Library. I should check it again as it has complete passenger lists, with, in the first edition, Thomas, "Hannah" (Harriet?) and Mary transcribed as Harkwell and the rest of the family as Markwell. This was corrected in the next edition. A lot of the shipping records from that time were damaged in the big 1893 Brisbane flood.
Please let me know if I can help more. See other threads I've posted in for more information about Thomas and Harriet. Thomas's headstone from Paddington or Milton cemetery seems to have been buried in a gully at Toowong Cemetery for fill!
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Hello again Seachr,thanks for the info on JOHN SMALL's parents etc....
I am going to list 2 sites you may have not seen but they are very helpful!
CHERRY SEED
CLIFTON BEACH
As you can see I am not to flash on the PC but I can tell you one thing in this researching,not everything is gospel...ie my wife's maternal family[Irish/Italian] changed their names[christian/surname] at least 15 times from the 1880's to the 1930's so it would not surprise me what was true or not,but I would like to think JOHN SMALL met HARRIETT MARKWELL on board "THE CITY OF BRISBANE"...Redards Medusa
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It makes perfect sense for it to be true. I'll do a little more checking. Please let me know if there's something I can access in Brisbane to help.
I know the Clifton Beach site: http://tng.cliftonbeach.net/ (http://tng.cliftonbeach.net/) but I can't find the cherry seed one you mean. Could you please give me a bit more information and maybe the link? Thanks.
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Hello Searchr,Yes I tried to be fancy with cherryseed.wordpress.co./tailors-the-markwell-family
So if it does'nt work google john small-harriett markwell and it will come up!
Had good results with DAVID SMALL/MARGARET SUTHERLAND...our John ada a sister..Jannet?....but can only get DAVID's father JOHN been married to an AGNES TAIT 21/12/1802,however DAVID's birth mother is listed as JANNET SMALL and DAVID had 4 siblings ?
Oh what fun this is..see you..Medusa ;)
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It is fun isn't it? highly addictive
What a great site! It will take me ages to explore.
Other bits that could be interesting for you:
David Small's will 1863 on Scotlands People
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~denisesfamily/ (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~denisesfamily/)
world connect: type it in and click on world connect project
enjoy
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How many children did DAVID SMALL and MARGARET SUTHERLAND have??..besides JOHN and JANNET!..I have JEMIMA and JEAN?....Medusa
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You're quick! There may be more, but I also have Alexander and David. Jemima is also Jamesina Jemima.
Another site that's good value for Markwells is Lincs to the Past, with tons of original parish registers, and just good all round, freeukgen, family search and the Queensland and NSW bdm and archives.
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Hi Searchr,Do you have a pedigree/family tree of the SMALLs?...because after reading through the 3 pages several times on out subject I am a bit confused!
What relation was DAVID SMALL[senior] to anyone?
Was JANE CALDERa maiden name?
I believe JOHN SMALL s[our JOHN's grandfather] ..wife was JANNET SMALL[birth name]..maybe a cousin?..as their5 children ELIZABETH,JOHN,DAVID,ALEXANDER and ROBERT are listed under JANNET SMALL!
I have this feeling I may have to much information so I might use the biro for a while and cross check...bye Medusa ::).
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Hi Medusa,
I think most of your questions will be answered if you type in worldconnect and go to world connect project and type in e.g. Tait Jannet. Lots of trees come up and many are actually our Jannet e.g. http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=small32 (http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=small32) and http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=snowdon (http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=snowdon) They seem to be backed up pretty well by e.g. freeukgen and family search. They have many more in their trees.
The marriage of David Small and Janet or Jannet Tait is on both freereg and family search and their family is on e.g. freecen. Be careful of grandchildren versus children.
Some of their children's baptisms are on freereg, with Janet as Janet Tait for William and John, and as Jannet Tait for David. David's christening is on family search too, as are those of Elizabeth, Catherine and Janet, with father David Small and mother Janet Tait. I haven't found your Alexander and Robert. Jane Calder (maiden name) married John.
The will of David Small 1863 on Scotlands people seems to back up much of this.
Enjoy.
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Hello Searchr,
Thanks for that info I am already making trails through the TAIT's and SUTHERLANDs'..ha ,ha..My ALEXANDER and ROBERT are listed on a Family Search Pedigree chart[blue and pink ]..cheers..Medusa
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glad it's helped you
I don't understand about your Alexander and Robert. Would it be possible for you to post a link please?
Also have you happened to come across the James Small from this: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTLK-ZYG (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTLK-ZYG) ? Do you think this could be David and Janet's son? He seems too old for a first marriage then. Maybe it's his second marriage, or maybe this is the first marriage of James, the son of John Small and Jane Calder. That James married Margaret Bremner in 1871 it seems. He then seems to have died and she married William Graham according to http://www.brebner.com/uploads/bre14975.pdf (http://www.brebner.com/uploads/bre14975.pdf)
Oh the endless possibilities...
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Hi searchr,
I think your 1849 marriage of JAMES SMALL could be him[40years old]..?mind you some married a lot younger and older.
I am going to have ago at
sending you this pedigree after I work out al the symbols??.....MEDUSA....OOPPS The file is to large?
dont know why its A4 size..I will cut it in half and have another go..
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Sorry I have sent hundreds of these before but for some reason the site wont let me do it ??? Iwill keep having a go M
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AGAIN AND AGAIN ?
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>:( :o ??? Patience :-[ :'(
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searchr,have attached my version of the family tree....see if you agree?...there are a lot of duplicated names there and I believe my Family Search one I sent you is not part of the same tree!...it took me a while to wade through it but I think it is OK...Medusa
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SEACHR,Still have'nt got the hang of this yet!
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How about I send the file ??
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OOPPS! again...the problem is I have to keep changing the file name!
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You're amazing! new possibilities .... Are the people at the bottom under MDES? the ones you're trying to slot in? will think a bit more
I didn't know you sent me a family search file.
I've been exploring William, son of David Small & Jannet Tait. He married Prudence Baxter, granddaughter of Simon Baxter, an American "Loyalist" from the war of independence. I've been reading about him. I didn't even know what a Loyalist was. It means he was a "Tory", supporting Britain. After the US won, he went to Canada.
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You should not put a seed in my head !
After all this is a hobby??I have traced DAVID and PRUDENCE back to GWILYM GAM FYCHAN born in Wales in 1835 and then I had to stop and give our Irish relies a chance?
This is not a Family tree its a forest!...bye...M
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What does MDES mean?The Family search tree I sent first is not connected to our tree and the problem sending an attachment you have to downsize the file so that is why they came through all over the place!
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Google St John Daily Sun N.B July 29th 1904 re WILLIAM and PRUDENCE wedding????
I think I said DAVID earlier instead of WILLIAM!!!
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great new source again!
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Diid WILLIAM and Prudence have any children?
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Yes. See e.g. http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=kmckinlay&id=I1927 (http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=kmckinlay&id=I1927) and http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e326/e008129985.jpg (http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e326/e008129985.jpg)
I'd love to know more about your tracing them back to Wales.
The parts where I've read about Prudence's grandfather, Capt. Simom Baxter Jr., the Loyalist, are e.g many on worldconnect , where they don't agree on his father's birthplace or parentage e.g. http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:2617145&id=I843 (http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:2617145&id=I843)
and others e.g. http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NewBrunswick/1999-03/0922463483 (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NewBrunswick/1999-03/0922463483)
https://archive.org/stream/loyalistrefugees00siebrich/loyalistrefugees00siebrich_djvu.txt (https://archive.org/stream/loyalistrefugees00siebrich/loyalistrefugees00siebrich_djvu.txt)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jcahill/simon.htm (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jcahill/simon.htm)
http://www.quiltbarntour.com/christchurchanglican.html (http://www.quiltbarntour.com/christchurchanglican.html)
http://www.uelac-nb.ca/index.htm (http://www.uelac-nb.ca/index.htm)
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First of all what does MDES mean and GEDCOM...?..As I mentioned before I am not to flash on the PC even reading my"Windows8 for Dummies"!
If you wish to give me your email address thats ok ..it might make it a lot easier sending files[wont have to keep renaming each file and making sure the size is not to big!..now to serious stuff!
I think I overdid the searching on PRUDENCE BAXTER's tree when I realised if she and WILLIAM SMALL had no children,then we have no connection,then I discovered their 3 children MARGARET,WATTEN and ELIZABETH.
The SMALL lineage then went to WILLIAM [S or T] then the only child WILMA who married a RUSSELL HALLIDAY and died in Hingham Massachusetts aged 101.
Most of this information I got on Family Search and once you get onto the USA site you pick up a lot more info.
With regards to Wales..just follow the Baxter's lineage!
Google search WILLIAM SMALL-PRUDENCE BAXTER and log onto Ancestry[no charge] the family tree will come up...then you can knock yourself out with all the info as well as a ream of A4..Adios Medusa
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Hi seachr,
How are you been ? great NRL game ?..Now the Question:
Did John Small ever go back to sea ,after he was married in 1863?...OOpps sorry another Q
Does the name Augustus Clare COOPER ring a bell?..MEDUSA 8)
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Hi,
I somehow missed your post. Thanks again. I'll investigate more now I've seen it.
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OK...LEAVE IT WITH YOU..MEDUSA
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Hi
haven't had a chance to investigate more yet, but just had a quick read of our posts
Sorry I don't ever seem to have answered about MDES or gedcom, even on our PMs.
I think I saw MDES somewhere in a file you posted, with names under it. I can't see it now.
A gedcom is basically a tree, in an electronic file.
Anyway, let's hope we do better in the 2nd game.
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You had me confused with the 2nd game,then I remembered your a "QUEENSLANDER"...regards Medusa