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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: mcfrankel on Thursday 22 January 15 05:04 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to track birth information for Robert Hastings Smith. I have an approx. date of birth of 1841. Robert migrated to Australia in 1863 approx, though I believe he went to New Zealand first. Robert ended up in a home for the poor in Australia. In the records of the asylum it states that Robert is the son of the Hon. Charles Lennox Butler and that he received a pension from Meads Solicitors until about 1885. If anyone can help or point me in a direction as the name Robert Smith is very common and I am a bit stuck.
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I can place a 'Robert Hastings Smith' in New Zealand, in Auckland on 19 November 1863. There was a court case where he accused a man of hitting him three times in the face. The man claimed Robert had been throwing cloths at him in the street, threatening to take his life and singing bad songs under his window. Robert was residing at the Newton Hotel. The man was fined 10 shillings.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=DSC18631119.2.12&srpos=2&e=-------10--1----0%22+Robert+Hastings+Smith%22--
And there is another court case mentioned 29 August 1864 in the Supreme court for 'Robert Hastings Smith' but it does not say for what. Case was held over until 13 September but protection refused.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=NZH18640829.2.15&srpos=1&e=-------10--1----0%22+Robert+Hastings+Smith%22--
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And in Australia 1883
"Robert Hastings Smith, residing on the Wybong, near Muswellbrook, had an altercation with a man named George Moss otherwise Steary, when Smith produced a pistol loaded with slugs and shot Steary in the lower part of the belly near the groin" Reading on it he was aquitted of this crime and claimed Mr Moss was in love with his wife and would not leave the property.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/908540?searchTerm=%22Robert%20Hastings%20Smith%22&searchLimits=
And in Australia 1885
IF I do not hear of or from my WIFE (who left her home on the 9th of May last) within one month from this date, I intend getting married again. ROBERT HASTINGS SMITH, West Maitland.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13586805?searchTerm=%22Robert%20Hastings%20Smith%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateDesc
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A bit more digging around shows a Robert Smith arriving on 'The Gertrude' Sailing Brig? Departing London, 30 Oct 1862 arriving Auckland, New Zealand, 11 Feb 1863. 97 days at Sea. (Non-conformist Special Settlers)
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=DSC18630228.2.69.8&srpos=4&e=-------10--1----0%22Robert+Smith%22+the+gertrude--
Albertland Index
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1971-39373-10507-46?cc=2212661
He appears to be the only Robert Smith that fits you timeline arriving in NZ
Passengers were to make their own way to Albertland?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albertland
Have you heard of remittance men? In New Zealand we had men sent here by their fathers, with money paid to them to stay out here. They were often 2nd or 3rd sons, that were trouble at home or had nothing to inherit .....
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Thanks for the information from New Zealand I will have a look at this information it looks like him though. I didn't even think to look for old New Zealand papers. Robert seemed to have some interesting times. I have a lot of information from Trove from old Newspapers. Robert often went back to England and left the farm to be managed by George Moss aka Sterry. George became romantic with Robert's wife and then Robert shot his wife's lover George Moss aka Sterry. She left Robert and went off to Sydney. Robert was acquitted of the charge and then Robert was left with four of the children and when the money stopped coming he gave them up and they were boarded out and one child went into service.
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New South Wales Gaol Entrance and Description Books, Maitland, Nov 1883:
Robert Hastings Smith, arrived per Nemmo in 1863, born England, C of E, 39, med build, 4'11", fresh complexion, brown hair, blue eyes, read & write, deformed humped back and chest.
Plenty on supposed father Charles Lennox Butler, seriously loaded, died in 1885 (when the allowance stopped!)
A private tree that appears to have lots on your guy, would be worth contacting.
Jo :)
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Hi Jo, sorry I am only new to this I have being trying to trace a ship called Nemmo but I think I have being going in the wrong direction ie from England to Australia. Which tree did you see? Thanks whiteout, I think the term remittance man seems to fit Robert's situation.
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The Hon. Charles Lennox Butler, of Coton House, Churchover Rugby was High Sheriff of Warwickshire (1862). So would It make sense if Robert Hastings Smith was born in Warwickshire?
Possibly even Rugby?
ROBERT SMITH born 1839 in Rugby, Warwickshire
England & Wales births 1837-2006
(No mothers name mentioned, to early in IGI but he would be in the 1841, 1851 census with her maybe?)
Here is a Robert Smith born 1840 in rugby, working as a servant at Kennilworth aged 21, 1861 census
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7GG-3K4
This man could be a good possible for your 'Robert Hastings Smith' (except I just found him in the 1841 census at Rugby Father John Smith, Mother Ann Smith)
(( Hon Charles Lennox Butler did indeed die on 5 March 1885 at age 71, according to the peerage))
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Yes I have looked at the record in the 1861 census....and haven't made it a firm match yet. I think Charles Butler didn't settle in Rugby until later in life from memory and travelled with the military in his earlier years so I have been a bit shy of placing a place of birth at Warwickshire. I appreciate with this.
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Yes, I think you are right. We can rule that one out.
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Might be useful to get a copy of Charles' Will.
Probate index entry -
The will with a codicil of the Hon Charles Lennox Butler late of 5 Belgrave Square Middlesex who died 5 March 1885 at the Hotel Mont Fleuri Cannes in France was proved at the Principal Registry by Edward Arthur Butler of Morley Bishop Stortford in the county of Hertford a retired colonel in Her Majestys army the son and the Hon Robert Saint John Fitzwalter Butler of Rutland Lodge Rutland Gardens in the county of Middlesex one of the Masters of the Supreme Court of Juricature the nephew, the executors.
Effects £33260 - 13s - 4d
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Hi Liz I was hoping to avoid the cost of purchasing the will. It would be good if I could preview it to see if it was any help but will have to wait until I can afford to do this.
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I'm new to RootsChat and this is my first post - so please forgive me if I'm some how not following the correct protocol :o
I'm very curious about this thread and notice there's been no update for two years.
It would appear Robert Hastings Smith is my wife's Great Great Grandfather.
I'm wondering if anyone has verified yet if RHS's father was indeed Charles Lennox Butler (and if so who possibly the mother was).
From what I can gather so father in this post (and from elsewhere):
1. RHS has Charles Lennox Butler listed as the father on RHS's death certificate in 1901 (with a notation adjacent to the entry saying "correct")
2. RHS names his oldest son Charles Lennox Smith (and his youngest daughter Charlotte Butler Smith)
3. RHS has at least one (and possibly multiple) trips back to England during his lifetime, and
4. RHS apparently has a "pension" given to him through Meads Solicitors that ends in 1885 the time of Charles Lennox Butler's death (I haven't seen proof of this - just read about it on this thread)
All of these links do point to the veracity of Charles Lennox Butler being Robert Hasting Smith's father
Towards the end of this thread it states that possibly the best way to confirm/deny the link is to purchase a copy of Charles Lennox Butler's will but that would be expensive. I'm new to this ancestry thing so maybe someone could tell me how I go about purchasing a copy of the will (and approximately how much it would cost).
Thanks in advance for any direction you could give me.
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Hi, that was my post and Robert is my great great grandfather. I have been investigating Robert for a long time but I haven’t got much further. There are many articles on Robert on Trove. Robert died in an Asylum for the poor so I am not sure if Charles Butler had left any provision for Robert in his will. You can obtain a copy of the will from the British archives I think. I would love to know how your wife is related to Robert? There are a few children of Roberts that I haven’t been able to track as my grandmother had no idea what happen to her aunts.
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Towards the end of this thread it states that possibly the best way to confirm/deny the link is to purchase a copy of Charles Lennox Butler's will but that would be expensive. I'm new to this ancestry thing so maybe someone could tell me how I go about purchasing a copy of the will (and approximately how much it would cost).
Welcome to rootschat :)
The will is available from the Probate Office. You can order it online, it will cost £10
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
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Hi mcfrankel - my wife is related through Lydia Blanche Smith (1876 - 1964), one of Robert's 9-10 kids. My mother-in-law has some fascinating stories about her grandmother Lydia.
I came across a fascinating 2-page summary on ancestry.com.au of some of the events in RHS's life. Did you write that? I'm wondering if it's worth getting a copy of the will of Charles Lennox Butler (thanks for the link Rosie99) - have you not explored this option yet?
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I would love to hear any stories or any information about Lydia. I have found her marriage details etc from the pioneer register but what happened to Lydia after her father put Lydia and her sisters in the Benevolent Society I haven’t been able to work out. The records show they were fostered out but a search of the archives found no further records. The summary of Roberts life was written by another Ancestry User, John. His user name is fhaglib. He is related through the Clark/Kelly family. We were trying to track down what happened to Mary, Lydia’s mother so he wrote the summary. If you have information on the death details of Mary Ann Clark/Smith/Moss that would be great. I have been searching for years. Do you have a tree on Ancestry? I have since found some details of Roberts time in New Zealand. I haven’t purchased the will as I was hoping DNA might lead somewhere and I was hoping the make the wills digital and free.....
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Presumedly you have Robert's 1869 marriage cert. What information does he give about his age, place of birth and parents' names?
Debra :)
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Hi Debra, I have a copy of everything but the will and of course the birth records. The marriage certificate was very disappointing as it had no information whatsoever except names place date and witnesses. It did help with linking Mary to the Clark family. I only found the details for Roberts father from the asylum records and his death certificate. :(
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You need to see the church registers as that information will be recorded there and just not passed on to the registry. It is important that you know who he named as his mother.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0
Debra :)
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Thanks Debra, I probably need to explore roots chat a bit better. You have given me some hope. I am trying to find an email address for the Muswellbrook local and Family Historical Society and I am not having much luck. It appears not a lot of the parish registers are online sob.
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Were they married by a C of E minister? If so Muswellbrook was in the Diocese of Newcastle and there is a list here of the libraries etc which hold the microfilm of the registers, including the Muswellbrook library.
http://libguides.newcastle.edu.au/anglican/parishregisters
Muswellbrook library email address is here under 'Branches' on the right hand side. They may look it up for you, it doesn't hurt to ask.
Newcastle FHS:
http://www.nfhs.org.au/
Debra :)
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;D thanks very much will five in a try.
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Hi mcfrankel - I've ordered Charles Butler's will and I should have it in (up to) 14 days (thanks rosie99 for the link). Let's see what it says when it arrives. Have you been able to follow up Dundee's suggestion of contacting Muswellbrook's library or Newcastle FHS? If not I'll give them a call/email (I just didn't want to double up on any work already done).
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That's good I tried to order the will and had something go wrong with the payment....I did get a copy of the marriage entry.....I can send a copy to you if you have an email address. I will let you have a look at the information before discussing anything. I think Robert was being funny.
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Thanks mcfrankel - just checking it's ok to post email addresses on rootschat.com without incurring the wrath of (very helpful) moderators, yes? :-)
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I did send a message using my messages which is on the bar up at the top.
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OK, I've located by inbox messages on rootschat and replied - thanks for the "heads up" :)
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I've purchased the will of Charles Lennox Butler but there is no mention of Robert Hastings Smith in it - so no way of making the connection between father/illegitimate son there.
Can anyone direct me on "Bastard Laws" in the UK here?
So far, here's the link between CLB and RHS as I understand it:
1. Charles Lennox Butler (CLB) is listed as the father on RHS's death certificate in 1901 (with a hand-written notation adjacent to the entry saying "correct")
2. RHS names his oldest son Charles Lennox Smith (and his youngest daughter Charlotte Butler Smith)
3. RHS has at least one (and possibly multiple) trips back to England during his lifetime, and
4. RHS apparently has a "pension" given to him through Meads Solicitors that ends in 1885 the time of Charles Lennox Butler's death (I haven't seen proof of this - just read about it on the rootschat thread).
All of these links do point to the veracity of Charles Lennox Butler being Robert Hasting Smith's father but is "circumstantial".
Any thoughts anyone? - seeing as the will of CLB offers no proof.
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What an amazing topic ...some of the news stories are strange .
I think its best to keep this title and have this one about CLB an JHS and their relationship .
If you already have a record of JHS being paid a pension by CLB vis Mearn the solicitor surely that is proof of paternity .
I wonder what is the farm you talked about ..
and the proof of mothers name
I have an example of a family of 3 children with either mothers name of putative fathers name depending on census . could that be the case for Mary Ann ..which surname does she use the most ?
could you list the names of the children you know please
detective work needed but you must be having fun with your exciting neighbours .
could you give a summary time and date line
do the names sound Aristocratic ? Where does that Hasting middle name come from ?
Do you know who brought Robert up and where he might have gone to school
School records are a great source of info give exact birth dates of children name parent ot guardian and often give reason for leaving that school or details of school they came from .
Another source of info can be asylum/hospital records I obtained my great grandfathers from 1924 and it said he was second of twelve siblings and gave next of kin which was his eldest sister ..but again you have to pay and it may reveal nothing useful .
happy hunting