RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Forfarian on Saturday 28 February 15 10:44 GMT (UK)
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Quite often, in this forum, I see something along the lines of, "I've searched Ancestry and can't find ...." or "I've tried Ancestry and Scotland's People ...."
There is a fundamental, major, difference between Scotland's People on the one hand and Ancestry, Family Search, Find My Past, Genes Reunited, MyHeritage, Geni and 1001 other genealogy sites out there on the Internet.
The critical difference is that Scotland's People is the ***only*** source of the originals of the principal building blocks of a Scottish family tree.
Each of Ancestry, Family Search and Find My Past has a wonderful range of resources for finding out more about individuals and turning a family tree into a family history, but the tree has first to be constructed using the original data.
By all means use these other sites as a finding aid.
For example Family Search has the International Genealogical Index https://familysearch.org/search/collection/igi to births, baptisms, banns and marriages in Scotland until about 1874/5. Even so, the IGI is not complete, and the Community Contributed listings contain some very dubious information alongside the useful stuff. (If you don't believe this, try putting 'Odin' as the given name, 'Any Event' in 'Norway', from '0000' to '0900', and see what you get.)
Ancestry has one useful finding aid for constructing Scottish family trees, and that is the transcriptions of the census. However these are notorious for their inaccuracies; you cannot rely on them, so it is always necessary to check the originals, which are only available online at Scotland's People. (There are much more reliable transcriptions at FreeCEN http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl but so far the coverage in FreeCEN is only a small proportion of the available records.)
Scotland's People has digital images of the following original documents
- the surviving baptism and marriage registers of the Church of Scotland from the 16th century to 1854
- the statutory civil registers of births, marriages and death from 1855 to the present day (though there are restrictions on what you can view online: you cannot view births less than 100 years ago, marriages less than 75 years ago and deaths less than 50 years ago)
- the decennial censuses from 1841 until 100 years ago
- the baptism, marriage and death registers of the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland
- almost all wills from the earliest times until 1925
- a selection of valuation rolls from the 19th and early 20th century
The Church of Scotland registers and the 1841 to 1901 censuses can be viewed on microfilm in public libraries, archives and family history centres in Scotland, or by arranging to rent the relevant film in any of the family history centres run by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon Church). The latter also has microfiche of the statutory civil birth and marriage registers from 1866 to 1874/5.
I will mention only fleetingly the family trees you find on all these sites. Some are no doubt meticulously researched, but others are a load of rubbish. I have found trees where people were still having children years after they were dead and buried, and it's very common to find that someone has found only one candidate in the records who roughly fits their ancestor, so they hav assumed this must be the right one.
Digression - only yesterday I found a tree in which my 2nd great-uncle, who was born, married, brought up 10 of a family, was given a retirement award for 40 years' work and eventually died, all in Banffshire, allegedly had a second family (with birth dates overlapping those of the genuine family) and died in Australia. I am sure his wife (who also spent her entire life in Banffshire, and survived her husband) would have been astonished to learn of his double life several months' travel away on the other side of the world.
Then there is the story of Mary Simpson. www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=619657
So please, everyone, disabuse yourselves of the idea that you can properly build an accurate family tree without using Scotland's People. Unless your ancestors left Scotland before the early 19th century and you are prepared to go all over the place to access information on microfilm, it is simply not possible, and certainly not by using Ancestry etc alone.
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I agree with you that Scotlandspeople is the site to use for images of the records. However, the other sites can often be useful in narrowing down the search parameters before spending credits at Scotlandspeople.
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I agree with you that Scotlandspeople is the site to use for images of the records. However, the other sites can often be useful in narrowing down the search parameters before spending credits at Scotlandspeople.
Indeed. Which is why I said above, "By all means use other sites as a finding aid".
Just don't imagine that any of them is an adequate alternative for SP, because they are not.
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Great advice Forfarian.
Imber
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Good advice there from Forfarian as I hadn't seen this post previously.
I would also like to add.....a lot of people get "hung-up" on how a name was spelt, especially as an e.g. Mc/Mac (along with others of course) but there are numerous variations of numerous names so you have to have an open mind & use the "variants or soundex" etc. options on SP if you can't find who you are searching.
Eg. MacNeil MacNeill MacNiel MacNiell McNeil McNeill McNiel McNiell & that's not all of the variants for that particular surname.
Annie
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to add a little, i find scotlands people comparitive to other site, very expensive, especially when you have to pay 1/2 credits just to find out if it's the person you think....often it isn't.
i also found although branches of the family were Scottish, they quickly branched out into ireland/england and even over seas
i'd strongly reccomend a*cestry for a month or so - to get the bones of a family tree, people who've done searches before you (often on SP) record their findings so save you reinventing the wheel - do proceed with caution though, it's often not accurate...so do checks on the details on SP and if you can't find on A at all, then check SP. But Sp alone could get VERY expensive.
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JC,
I agree SP can be expensive if you don't know how to manipulate the site & depending on the "era" being researched.
There are free sites for census records, births/baptisms/marriages/deaths & this can help immensely with narrowing down search windows for indexes when you have a knowledge of the area firstly then ages if it's a popular name or a name with many variations.
However, anyone with Scots ancestry needs to use SP (including myself) but there are many avenues to research to guide you........even a "google" search of names/areas can turn up unexpected help although terms used while on google can be expanded to help you or you may find yourself scrolling through everything forever.
Annie
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JC,
However, anyone with Scots ancestry needs to use SP (including myself) but there are many avenues to research to guide you........even a "google" search of names/areas can turn up unexpected help although terms used while on google can be expanded to help you or you may find yourself scrolling through everything forever.
Annie
I think you've misread my last, I say to get the bones of a tree elsewhere (actry etc) and check the details on SP.
If you use SP as your first/only source, it's expensive. First check the free/cheaper sites. And IMHO actry is a good source because people have often already done all the expensive SP work and recorded it there.
I do say to check results on SP but would actually be more specific, check against actually certificates where possible. If you find that free or part of a subscription site, you don't need to pay to check again on SP
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to add a little, i find scotlands people comparitive to other site, very expensive, especially when you have to pay 1/2 credits just to find out if it's the person you think....often it isn't.
You are not comparing like for like. I repeat, Ancestry, FindMyPast, MyHeritage etc do not have original birth, marriage or death certificates for Scotland, or for England, Wales, New Zealand, Australia etc etc (apart from a few published in breach of copyright by people who have got them from SP or elsewhere).
Just try getting the equivalent original certificates from England/Wales (currently £9.25 per certificate compared with £1.40 on SP if you get your search right) Australia, New Zealand etc. Then you will really find out what 'expensive' means.
You can of course use any or all of these commercial sites to see what trees, accurate or not, other people have submitted to them, and you can use such trees as a basis for your own research, but you cannot compile a full and accurate tree using them instead of SP; and compared with almost all the government sites where you can buy original certificates from other parts of the world SP is not at all expensive; in fact it is the least expensive I have come across anywhere other than one US state, I forget which.
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to add a little, i find scotlands people comparitive to other site, very expensive, especially when you have to pay 1/2 credits just to find out if it's the person you think....often it isn't.
You are not comparing like for like. I repeat, Ancestry, FindMyPast, MyHeritage etc do not have original birth, marriage or death certificates for Scotland, or for England, Wales, New Zealand, Australia etc etc (apart from a few published in breach of copyright by people who have got them from SP or elsewhere).
I do say very clearly to check at info with SP.
But if you only use SP you'll be laying five info that's freely available elsewhere.
Please remember many people have searched SP and recorded their findings on Ancestry.
We don't need to keep reinventing the wheel.
Use the many sites.
Check the info you find on original certificates..
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I must say that I consider myself fortunate that by far the bulk of my family tree is Scottish (and being west of Scotland, also Irish of course!!). I suppose if I counted the amount I have spent over the years with SP, ... well... I just won't keep count (could be spending it on worse vices lol!!). I agree that it is the "Bible" for Scottish records - and again, I say I consider myself fortunate that they are so easily available and so full of info. Yes, I use other sites to my advantage, but only on a "pay as you go" basis - very sparingly - and only when absolutely essential - often ending up disappointed and not trusting others "transcriptions"! So good to see the "originals".. and that and the joy of having discovered them myself rather than depending on others... well that is 90% of the joy of the "Chase".. With experience I have learnt to use SP to advantage - and am truly thankful for it. And Rootschatters have proved to be such a help over the years - Thank you to all who work to keep the site going!!
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I really enjoy Scottish research, and love using Scotland's People.
Sadly I do not have any Scottish ancestors of my own, but have a little experience researching for others.
I often use Familysearch as a first port of call, and if I believe I have found the relevant record, I purchase the corresponding certificate or bmd entry on SP.
I may have been lucky, as I have had some unusual names in my searches, but I have found the costs very reasonable, especially for cerificates as Forfarian has noted - they are very cheap and contain a wealth of information.
I can't find much, or any, fault with SP. :)
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I do say very clearly to check at info with SP.
But if you only use SP you'll be laying five info that's freely available elsewhere.
You may be, but most of what is on SP is not available elsewhere.
Please remember many people have searched SP and recorded their findings on Ancestry.
Very true. But if they include images of certificates, they are in breach of copyright and if they don't you cannot trust their 'findings'.
We don't need to keep reinventing the wheel.
No, but we need to be able to distinguish a wheel from a brick. Scotland's People is an official government site, like the GRO site for England and Wales and similar ones in other parts of the world. Those are the bricks. Ancestry etc are commercial sites which do not have a complete range of originals, but do contain a lot of information submitted by individuals, some of which is of excellent quality and some of which is garbage. They are the wheels. You use bricks and wheels in different ways. You use SP and other government sites in a different way from Ancestry and other commercial sites, but if you are going to create a tree you need to understand the differences, just as you need to understand the differences or you risk trying to build a house out of wheels.
Use the many sites. Check the info you find on original certificates.
Absolutely agree. But don't believe anything until you have seen the original document. And don't get the idea that SP and Ancestry etc are alternatives to one another, because they are not. They are fundamentally quite different.
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Thanks Forfarian!
I agree - there is simply no comparison in price for getting at original information from church certificates etc. Having done initial searching on other sites, it is really good to find such a rich source of comparatively cheap records.
Our Victorian, in Australia, records are on a par with GRO, but more expensive than SP.
Wiggy
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I have to agree with Forfarian but, we should all be aware of that Ancestry also indexes a fair amount of records taken directly from FamilySearch.
The old version of FS made it really easy to differentiate between "Extracted" and "Submitted" entries but, the new version is not quite as straightforward.
Some submitted entries are partly or wholly incorrect.
Look out for the addition of middle names which never appeared on the original document.
Submitted by researchers who mis identified their relatives on FS records in the first instance !
It's always worth doing a simple search on SP to ensure that the entry actually exists.
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Enjoyed reading these posts.
As far as SP is concerned, why don't they offer some sort of monthly, quarterly or annual sub?
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As far as SP is concerned, why don't they offer some sort of monthly, quarterly or annual sub?
SP's charges, as I understand it, are set by the Scottish Government.
You might as well ask why the GRO in England and Wales, the DIA in New Zealand, and the relevant government departments in Ireland and Australia, also charge on a pay-per-view basis for original documents, and why all of them are more expensive than SP.
SP are aware that almost everyone would like a subscription option, and have not categorically ruled it out for the future. We can but hope!
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Buying an Ancestry subscription would have been an expensive mistake for my family tree, since no one on Ancestry had researched (and stolen of SP, tsk, tsk).
Ancestry simply had none of my Scottish family records at all.
I only used the site on free days to see what was available and there was literally nothing for me.
If you have recent Scottish ancestors who have never been researched, I would say Scotlands people is a must use site and Ancestry ho hum.
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I would like to remind people to use the previous searches and viewed images buttons when they are looking for something on SP, until I got used to the site I kept paying the 1 credit to look at the results of a search when I had already done the search before, 1 credit is not a lot but it soon adds up after a fair number of searches.
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All your searches are saved for you on SP. They also give you a wee treat every now and then when you get free extra credits!
You can also ask them to improve a poor image you have purchased,, and they usually can!! No charge.
I'll never understand why people think that SP is expensive .... It's the least expensive of them all!
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I would like to remind people to use the previous searches and viewed images buttons when they are looking for something on SP, until I got used to the site I kept paying the 1 credit to look at the results of a search when I had already done the search before, 1 credit is not a lot but it soon adds up after a fair number of searches.
Just thought I'd add that you can search SP records now with no cost. The only thing that costs credits is when you're purchasing an image of a record. This is especially useful when searching baptism records as you can often find the names of the parents listed on the search returns themselves, meaning you don't always have to buy an image with credits. The only time I would do this is to find a residence where the child was born and/or where the parents were living.
I do use the other sites to get barebones information first, a starting block on where to thereafter go to get the "official" stuff from SP. I will say though, that the newspaper access through findmypast has recently been incredibly useful to me. I found a marriage notice in a newspaper that referred to a child of a direct ancestor of mine. SP had no record of this child anywhere in the birth/baptism records. It appears the birth just wasn't registered. If it wasn't for this search I would be none the wiser to the existence of this person. I thereafter found her death cert on SP confirming that her parents were indeed my ancestors. Was a very fortunate find.
So, the other sites can and do have their uses, but as long as you take much of what you find with a pinch of salt then thereafter get the official stuff from SP it's all good in my opinion.
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I will say though, that the newspaper access through findmypast has recently been incredibly useful to me. I found a marriage notice in a newspaper that referred to a child of a direct ancestor of mine. SP had no record of this child anywhere in the birth/baptism records. It appears the birth just wasn't registered. If it wasn't for this search I would be none the wiser to the existence of this person. I thereafter found her death cert on SP confirming that her parents were indeed my ancestors. Was a very fortunate find.
Liviani, you're right but some people have the idea that SP have not recorded it on their site rather than the fact that a baptism just simply didn't take place or the records didn't survive hence no record on SP.
Annie
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I will say though, that the newspaper access through findmypast has recently been incredibly useful to me. I found a marriage notice in a newspaper that referred to a child of a direct ancestor of mine. SP had no record of this child anywhere in the birth/baptism records. It appears the birth just wasn't registered. If it wasn't for this search I would be none the wiser to the existence of this person. I thereafter found her death cert on SP confirming that her parents were indeed my ancestors. Was a very fortunate find.
Liviani, you're right but some people have the idea that SP have not recorded it on their site rather than the fact that a baptism just simply didn't take place or the records didn't survive hence no record on SP.
Annie
Yes that's an important point. I've had numerous ancestors where there are gaps between baptisms of their numerous children happening or being recorded. It's not a case of missing records (as far as I know) as there are other records for the same parish for those periods.
I think it may be important to note and let people know about the "Disruption of 1843". The Free Kirk was created then.
There is information regarding these events here; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruption_of_1843
Note that there are events preceding this "great disruption". People walking out of their parish churches etc. This could well play a part in why many children just weren't baptised around that time.
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Another date to look for is around 1782 when a tax was introduced on entries in the parish registers.
Eric
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I am confused by the current search options on Scotland's People.
A cousin of my father's married and had children in Scotland in the period 1930-1960. I know the full names of husband and wife and the place and date of their marriage but no other information except the Christian names of two children (which may not necessarily be their formal names.)
If I were searching on FreeBMD, which of course does not cover Scotland, I would enter the family Surname and the mother's maiden name and an appropriate period and the database would return a list of children matching the criteria.
On SP there seems to be no provision for searching against the parents' names, and entering the child's name, even assuming that it is a correct first name, delivers a list of several dozen. There is then no way to view the entries to see which may be the right one . The only option offered appears to be to order all the certificates, at substantial cost, with no guarantee that any will be relevant.
Is SP particularly obtuse, or am I just not “holding my mouth right” ? Any suggestions on how to proceed would be appreciated.
Maec
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If I were searching on FreeBMD, which of course does not cover Scotland, I would enter the family Surname and the mother's maiden name and an appropriate period and the database would return a list of children matching the criteria.
On SP there seems to be no provision for searching against the parents' names, and entering the child's name, even assuming that it is a correct first name, delivers a list of several dozen. There is then no way to view the entries to see which may be the right one . The only option offered appears to be to order all the certificates, at substantial cost, with no guarantee that any will be relevant.
This is because of the cut-off dates for the online system. You are not permitted to access online any details of any birth less than 100 years ago other than the name, year, district and reference number.
There is a way round this, which is to go, or to get someone to go on your behalf, to the Scotland's People Centre. In-house, you can search for birth registrations from 1929 onwards using the mother's maiden surname, and you can view and transcribe the information on the certificates, but not download, save or print the document. There is a charge of £15 per day for a day's use of the SP centre, but if someone is going there anyway, they should be able to transcribe all the details of quite a large family in half an hour or so.
Using FreeBMD, there is no way to view original documents of a similar vintage at all, either online or in-house. You have to buy every individual certificate at £9.25 each. If you order more than one recent certificate at a time from SP they cost £10 each.
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Liviani, you're right but some people have the idea that SP have not recorded it on their site rather than the fact that a baptism just simply didn't take place or the records didn't survive hence no record on SP.
Annie
Would just like to mention that I had never found a birth for an ancestor early 1820's, no matter what I tried on SP. Decided to check for the oldest child 1840's birth, found the baptism though, which gave me the birth date, and a couple of days later looking more closely at the page, my 1820's chap, jumped out at me, he was an adult baptism, a few months before child was born, and it also gave me the full date of birth.
Cheers
KHP
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Thank you, Forfarian,
The hundred year rule must be the answer.
I'm not really concerned about certificates in this case, which is just as well as I live much too far away to visit the SP Centre. I know I have these second cousins but we have lost contact with this branch of the family and I just wanted to confirm their full names and DoBs.
I'll have to pursue other avenues. :)
Maec
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I have only recently subscribed to Scotlands People. Is it possible to obtain a pdf copy of a birth certificate for 1882 in the same way as you can from the GRO for England and Wales?
Graham
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You just buy your credits and download it instantly MUCH better, and cheaper, than the English :)
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Do you have an example of a birth certificate so I know I have found the correct document. I do not require a certified copy.
Graham
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Graham, Births, Marriages and Deaths are sorted separately. You do not need an example to know what you are looking for.
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You just buy your credits and download it instantly MUCH better, and cheaper, than the English :)
I agree, but there are also WELSH indexes available on the GRO.
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The SP site is a little confusing at first. there are TWO seperate searches one SET For pre 1855 and another set for post.
each set contains Birth marriage and deaths if they have them.. there are also Census return searches and Valuation Rolls plus other kinds of searches to explore.
If you go carefully you often get brilliant results and when they find your request the certificate is there ready to download.
YOU add credits at the start of your search and then attempt to use them sparingly.... ha ha.. never managed that.
but investigate the site before you start.. its great because the certs after 1855 are so full of added information maiden names and parents details.. brilliant...
ok..
be careful when searching for marriages that is when I mess up... with maiden names and things.
the best thing is they save your certs.. I used to have zilllllls saved but dont check now since the big change not sure if they still have them from when i started using the site way back..
xin
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You just buy your credits and download it instantly MUCH better, and cheaper, than the English :)
I agree, but there are also WELSH indexes available on the GRO.
Yes, of course :)
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the best thing is they save your certs.. I used to have zilllllls saved but dont check now since the big change not sure if they still have them from when i started using the site way back..
Yes. I keep coming across certs I had looked up years ago and completeley forgotten about.
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I always get a buzz when I see ‘paid’ on a cert I had previously forgotten.
And the free search facility has helped me look after my credits. You can learn a lot from the searches.
You get so used to everything being there that it is a chore when you find something not available at the click of a button eg a more recent will. Need to get up to the history room in Edinburgh 😁
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If you are coming to Edinburgh it would be advisable to book your seat in advance. It is easy to do online through the SP website. £15 for a whole day's researching + cost of credits you need to get your certificates.
One wee bit of advice if you get some certificates that you want to keep (and who doesn't when they are there) it costs 6 credits to download them to your own device but you can print them out for 2/3 credits if memory serves me right and then scan them in when you get home. Cheaper to do it this way if it suits you.
Happy hunting,
Dorrie
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Thanks for this. I’ve used the search room before, a long time ago.
The wills, I think, are viewable in the history room. You have to ask for the relevant books a few days in advance so this will need planning.
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If you are coming to Edinburgh it would be advisable to book your seat in advance. It is easy to do online through the SP website. £15 for a whole day's researching + cost of credits you need to get your certificates.
There is no additional cost for certificates unless you print them out. If you transcribe the information there is no extra charge.
You aren't allowed to save them to a memory stick now, because someone's stick introduced a virus that crashed the system a year or two ago.
And I don't think you can print birth certificates less than 100 years old, marriages less than 75 years old or deaths less than 50 years old - you can only transcribe the information from them.
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Do they allow taking photographs of the on screen certificates?
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Do they allow taking photographs of the on screen certificates?
No. There are actually notices specifically forbidding this.
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hi forfarian
i ve just read your origonal post,
and agree fully with scotlands people being the best source of origional docs,
but i ll add that for anyone visiting the scottish isle's such as isle of lewis,
doing research is ask the locals as on our very first visit there researching
we got directed to an old lady and in her possession was the registrars book
going back into the 1700s,
how many instances there is of these books still being in the possession of registrars famillies
there is, is anyones guess but it has to be worth asking questions of locals as we found their knowledge of local famillies was vast and of great help to us as my wife discovered she still has many relatives there as she has local to where we live now,
keep up the good work
Raonull4
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for anyone visiting the scottish isle's such as isle of lewis, doing research is ask the locals as on our very first visit there researching we got directed to an old lady and in her possession was the registrars book going back into the 1700s,how many instances there is of these books still being in the possession of registrars famillies there is, is anyones guess
If it goes back to the 1700s, it can't be a registrar's book, because there were no registrars before the start of civil registration 1855.
But I agree, there are probably still some pre-1855 parish registers which escaped being collected in 1855, and registers of churches other than the Church of Scotland which are still in private hands. I hope this lady has taken steps to make sure the book is kept safe and the information is made available.
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hi
your most probably correct and it was parish register,
as for where the book is now i d hope it was possibly
handed over to the carloway historical society,
the lady was fairly old when we met her but that means very little
as another lady we met was 103 this year and i must say it was a treat meeting that lady,
and what a fantastic memory she had in her 90s when we met her mowing her garden,
the conversation was a touch strange while we asked questions the lady and a friend
would discus the question in gaelic then answer it in english,
those experiences makes the reserching all worth while.
Raonull4
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Fantastic!
About 30 years ago I met a distant relative who was 100, and it was really interesting to hear how things were around 1900 when she was a girl.
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whats really sad
is we did nt start researching till it was to late
our own parents and grandparents where gone, so many questions without answers
photos in suitcases but whos in them,
what ever happened to granda s brother wounded 5 times at the somme
we know why he was wounded he was a piper we know he survived
married twice once unlawfully had kids but then where did he go,
so wish we d started searching earlier.
Raonull4
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Useful article from the Durham Records Online newsletter that ties in with the content of this thread:
https://durhamrecordsonline.com/updates/2020/08/some-notes-about-familysearch-org/
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Forfarian,
Thank you for your helpful comments. I personally find SP intimidating to use as you say, and other than obtaining my father’s birth certificate a few years ago, I gave my unused credits to my sister who has a much better handle on it and has obtained many docs over the last few years, the latest being yesterday on our GG grandmother who we are still researching (hence my original question). I use Ancestry, My Heritage, Family Search and other free sites and resources to verify my information and have seen lots of errors as you say. I do not post names until I am confident it is the correct person. I leave my trees (always a work in progress) as public in order to help other people and wish more people would do the same but truly understand why some do not want to share their personal information...not to mention all those trees that are wrong!
I very much appreciate all the wonderful people on Rootschat always willing to help!
Regards,
Beth
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Realise this is quite an old thread but anyway......
Just really starting on my journey and thus far I have found BMD to be fairly pointless to me as I am searching Scotland and Ireland.
So, can anyone advise before i make the plunge of buying subscription.
My family goes back to my Grandparents on my mothers side and my Great Grandparents on my fathers side, then they all become Irish.
Would SP be the best to purchase to search Ireland or would i be better going with Ancestry?
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Would SP be the best to purchase to search Ireland or would i be better going with Ancestry?
Scotland's People is not a subscription site. It's pay-per view.
However there is absolutely no point in trying Scotland's People for Irish research because Scotland's People does not include births, baptisms, marriages, deaths and burials which took place in Ireland.
Start with https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/ and when you run out of options there I believe that https://www.rootsireland.ie/ is likely to be a much better bet than Ancestry.
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Useful article from the Durham Records Online newsletter that ties in with the content of this thread:
https://durhamrecordsonline.com/updates/2020/08/some-notes-about-familysearch-org/
Thanks, I appreciate you posting this link. I found the article very enlightening and it also got me wondering why I don't receive emails from Durham Records Online anymore . ???
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Start with https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/ and when you run out of options there I believe that https://www.rootsireland.ie/ is likely to be a much better bet than Ancestry.
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Thanks for your reply.
I will join ancestry and see where that takes me, also SP for being able to print some certificates.
Thanks for the link to the Irish site too, had a quick look and feel that will be able to help me a lot,
Cheers
Gerry
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I did some research for a friend whose family of weavers went from Ireland to Scotland then England.
The birth certificates for the children born in Scotland were particularly useful as they stated where the parents were and when they married in Ireland so knew where to start looking.
There is an excellent guide at the beginning of the Scotland forum page on ‘how to get the best from Scotland’s People’
There are ways of sleuthing so you don’t burn through your credits.
Good luck
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It’s actually headed ‘how to optimise your Scotland’s People search’
also read ‘where to start with Scottish research’
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It’s actually headed ‘how to optimise your Scotland’s People search’
also read ‘where to start with Scottish research’
Thanks for that - Do you know I hadn't even scrolled down that far. Saw it was all counties and left.
Thanks again though, I'll have a read through that - Looks good
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I used SP many years ago but didn't copy the references to documents found
so I could add them to my tree on ancestry and have a record of where I found my information.
Also I didnt add description to many of my saved searches so looking for them is hard
Very pleased to come across some censuses and BDM that I had already paid for .
Also when you find your relative on a baptism or married page in a small community you can be lucky and find other relatives on the same page
I feel very clodhopperish in my searches either the system has changed or I've forgotten how to start with a broad search and narrow down parameters
I found myself looking at 786 KYLE marriages today !
I found a likely one and then corresponding likely baptism from the free search without having to pay to view the certificate !
I can do that when I confirm connection BUT
Will probably have to go through whole process again
Ancestry provided me with some interesting
Census transcriptions but some of them are poorly transcribed .
I use several different sites and am master of none
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I used SP many years ago but didn't copy the references to documents found
so I could add them to my tree on ancestry and have a record of where I found my information.
Also I didnt add description to many of my saved searches so looking for them is hard
Very pleased to come across some censuses and BDM that I had already paid for .
Also when you find your relative on a baptism or married page in a small community you can be lucky and find other relatives on the same page
I feel very clodhopperish in my searches either the system has changed or I've forgotten how to start with a broad search and narrow down parameters
I found myself looking at 786 KYLE marriages today !
I found a likely one and then corresponding likely baptism from the free search without having to pay to view the certificate !
I can do that when I confirm connection BUT
Will probably have to go through whole process again
Ancestry provided me with some interesting
Census transcriptions but some of them are poorly transcribed .
I use several different sites and am master of none
Your previous searches and images should still be there. Log in to your account and in the top right corner under your name is a pull down menu which has things like ‘saved searches’ and images etc.
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Yes saved images and searches come up but there are pages of them
I tried putting KYLE. In to heading box or
Description on filter and not getting the searches coming .
It says you do not have any saved searches
I didnt save some I did this weekend .
But thought I'd saved others
..have to I go thru pages chronologically
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brigidmac I still have mines on SP going back nearly 10 years.
If you have paid for the certificates then try "saved images" rather than searches and then put in a name. This works for me every time.
Just a thought.
Dorrie
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Thanks Dorrie
I've now found some images saved in 2015
Am going thru all the possible MacDermid spellings ..I obviously never researched KYLEs or mcfarlane s much at the time as I was more interested in finding living descendants
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(If you don't believe this, try putting 'Odin' as the given name, 'Any Event' in 'Norway', from '0000' to '0900', and see what you get.)
I am deeply sorry to have to report that FS seem to have corrected their records by removing the supposed family tree, including baptisms (!), of the Norse gods.
This is, of course, absolutely the proper thing to have done, but it deprives us of the opportunity for a good laugh :)
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Forfaren
Has this already been said I've not read back thru all replies but since your original posting
Ancestry does include some of the original documents..from Scotland
I.ll make a note of which type next time I come across 1 .
Thanks for the Norse gods laugh 😂
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Forfaren
since your original posting
Ancestry does include some of the original documents..from Scotland
I.ll make a note of which type next time I come across 1 .
Brigid, this may be correct although I haven't noticed but I've come across some scotlandspeople original docs/certs which have been uploaded to others' trees.
The initial thread/post was 28 February 2015 & I've since found some original SP Baptism records on FindMyPast which are in their records as opposed to being uploaded to others' Family Trees.
Annie
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Has this already been said I've not read back thru all replies but since your original posting
Ancestry does include some of the original documents..from Scotland
They do, but mostly in breach of copyright, and far from all surviving records.
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The initial thread/post was 28 February 2015 & I've since found some original SP Baptism records on FindMyPast which are in their records as opposed to being uploaded to others' Family Trees.
Annie
Could it have been when FindMyPast and SP were owned by the same company or something similar?
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The initial thread/post was 28 February 2015 & I've since found some original SP Baptism records on FindMyPast which are in their records as opposed to being uploaded to others' Family Trees.
Could it have been when FindMyPast and SP were owned by the same company or something similar?
Hi Gadget...
I'm unsure of that but the ones I came across were catholic baptisms specifically in South Uist, Inverness-shire.
Annie
Add...Having checked, the records I referred to were in the parish/area of Bornish, South Uist, Inverness-shire
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I've just been checking which Scottish records FindMyPast have, Annie
They seem to have the RC records from all 8 of the Diocese
Scotland Roman Catholic parish baptisms
Scotland Roman Catholic parish marriages
Scotland Roman Catholic parish congregational records
Scotland Roman Catholic parish burials
Scotland Roman Catholic parish list
and a considerable number of other Scottish records.
Gadget
It's worth checking their 'All records' page and entering 'Scotland' in the search box for the full listing
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/historical-records?region=world&page=1&order_direction=desc&order_by=relevance
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FindMyPast has better coverage of the Scottish Roman Catholic records than Scotland's People.
FindMyPast's parent company never actually owned SP - Brightsolid https://www.dcthomson.co.uk/companies/brightsolid-2/ was contracted for a few years to operate the SP web page on behalf of the National Records of Scotland/Registrar General for Scotland.
IIRC that contract ended before SP got access to the RC registers.
(I only just realised that FindMyPast now includes GenesReunited.)
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Brightsolid - that was the one that I was thinking of!
History of FindMyPast
Our past
The Findmypast story began in 1965 as what was then known as Title Research. Since there were no online records, employees spent many hours poring over microfiche machines until the first website was launched in 2003 as 1837online.com.
Rebranded in 2006, and acquired by DC Thomson in 2007, Findmypast has since expanded to cover the UK, Ireland, Australia and North America.
In 2011 Findmypast embarked on a 10-year project to digitise 40 million pages from The British Library's collection of historical newspapers, this partnership was renewed in 2021 with a broader scope.
Findmypast has won several major digitisation contracts such as the 1911 Census for England & Wales, British Army Service Records and the 1939 Register. Through partnerships with religious organisations, UK record offices and societies Findmypast hosts record sets including the Catholic Heritage Archive and The Wales Collection.
From January 2022, Findmypast is the exclusive online home of the 1921 Census of England & Wales in association with The National Archives.
I joined when they started as 1837 Online
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Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about 1837online. I didn't join it as initially they only had information from England and Wales.
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Well, with ancestors from Wales, Scotland, England and a smattering of Irish way back, I am a bit of a mixture and Ancestry tells me that I've also got Norway, Sweden and Denmark there somewhere.
I was surprised to find that many of my wider kin are now in Canada, USA, South Africa, New Zealand and a few in Australia!
I need many sources. :D
Gadget
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Every single one of the direct ancestors I know about was born and died in Scotland. That's a minimum of 5 generations, and up to 15 generations in one line. No-one at all exotic anywhere among my forebears.
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I've just been checking which Scottish records FindMyPast have, Annie
They seem to have the RC records from all 8 of the Diocese
Scotland Roman Catholic parish baptisms
Scotland Roman Catholic parish marriages
Scotland Roman Catholic parish congregational records
Scotland Roman Catholic parish burials
Scotland Roman Catholic parish list
and a considerable number of other Scottish records.
Gadget
It's worth checking their 'All records' page and entering 'Scotland' in the search box for the full listing
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/historical-records?region=world&page=1&order_direction=desc&order_by=relevance
Thanks Gadget...I'll keep that in mind for future!
I'd initially come across the Bornish Baptisms a while ago when looking up something, which was a surprise & I'm unsure when they were added but I'd already purchased a barrow load from SP over the years ::)
Annie
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Why is it that I can find a record on Family Search, with the source seeming to be the offical Scottish registers, but then when I search on Scotland's People using the exact same information it doesn't appear? I'm trying to obtain the original images. Thanks!
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Can you quote exactly what you found on FamilySearch please?
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Can you quote exactly what you found on FamilySearch please?
Family Search:
Name Agnes McKenzie
Sex Female
Father's Name Isaac McKenzie
Father's Sex Male
Mother's Name Harriet Tennen
Mother's Sex Female
Event Type Birth
Event Date 24 Aug 1863
Event Place Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland, United Kingdom
Event Place (Original) High Church, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
But on Scotland's People I can't find this record anywhere. Same for other children. As an aside, I also have a different family where I can find all of the birth certificates, but no death certificates, no marriage certificates...etc. Not sure why that is either.
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Scottishlad, I just looked it up on ScotlandsPeople and found this:
MCKENZIE
AGNES
F
1863
644 / 2 / 1505
HIGH CHURCH
Mother's maiden name not recorded in the index. Might be worth a try.
This should be the marriage record of her parents. Harriet's surname is indexed as TENNON.
MCKENZIE
ISAAC
TENNON
HARRIET
1855
644 / 1 / 256
GLASGOW CENTRAL DISTRICT
I will look for more and let you know.
Can you quote exactly what you found on FamilySearch please?
Family Search:
Name Agnes McKenzie
Sex Female
Father's Name Isaac McKenzie
Father's Sex Male
Mother's Name Harriet Tennen
Mother's Sex Female
Event Type Birth
Event Date 24 Aug 1863
Event Place Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland, United Kingdom
Event Place (Original) High Church, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
But on Scotland's People I can't find this record anywhere. Same for other children. As an aside, I also have a different family where I can find all of the birth certificates, but no death certificates, no marriage certificates...etc. Not sure why that is either.
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Scottishlad, I just looked it up on ScotlandsPeople and found this:
MCKENZIE
AGNES
F
1863
644 / 2 / 1505
HIGH CHURCH
Mother's maiden name not recorded in the index. Might be worth a try.
This should be the marriage record of her parents. Harriet's surname is indexed as TENNON.
MCKENZIE
ISAAC
TENNON
HARRIET
1855
644 / 1 / 256
GLASGOW CENTRAL DISTRICT
I will look for more and let you know.
Can you quote exactly what you found on FamilySearch please?
Family Search:
Name Agnes McKenzie
Sex Female
Father's Name Isaac McKenzie
Father's Sex Male
Mother's Name Harriet Tennen
Mother's Sex Female
Event Type Birth
Event Date 24 Aug 1863
Event Place Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland, United Kingdom
Event Place (Original) High Church, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
But on Scotland's People I can't find this record anywhere. Same for other children. As an aside, I also have a different family where I can find all of the birth certificates, but no death certificates, no marriage certificates...etc. Not sure why that is either.
Hmm, that’s interesting. Yeah I guess I’ll need to double back on people I’m missing and try to see if somebody fits year wise rather than solely looking for listings with the mother’s maiden name. Would explain why I can’t find them.
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Ancestry tells me that I've also got Norway, Sweden and Denmark there somewhere.
Gadget
I was told the same, Mum always said there was Scandinavian in us. Perhaps we are distant rellies? ;D :D. Have more Scottish than Irish in me. ;D
Cheers
KHP
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Ancestry tells me that I've also got Norway, Sweden and Denmark there somewhere.
Gadget
I was told the same, Mum always said there was Scandinavian in us. Perhaps we are distant rellies? ;D :D. Have more Scottish than Irish in me. ;D
Cheers
KHP
I was brought up on the east coast of England in a fishing port. When I was first researching my family I got quite a surprise from the 1871 census at how many Scandinavians, especially Norwegians, had married local Yorkshire girls.
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MCKENZIE
ISAAC
TENNON
HARRIET
1855
644 / 1 / 256
GLASGOW CENTRAL DISTRICT
The above 1855 marriage will be full of useful info. which is not recorded in any other year.
It was the beginning of Statutory records & a gold mine for Genealogists, well worth the cost & more.
When looking for people, if you fail to bring up matches it's an idea to use different options for names & the 'wildcard' option which uses an asterisk e.g. M*ckenzie which will bring up both Mac & Mc.
Searches are not case sensitive.
Annie
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Quite often, in this forum, I see something along the lines of, "I've searched Ancestry and can't find ...." or "I've tried Ancestry and Scotland's People ...."
There is a fundamental, major, difference between Scotland's People on the one hand and Ancestry, Family Search, Find My Past, Genes Reunited, MyHeritage, Geni and 1001 other genealogy sites out there on the Internet.
The critical difference is that Scotland's People is the ***only*** source of the originals of the principal building blocks of a Scottish family tree.
Each of Ancestry, Family Search and Find My Past has a wonderful range of resources for finding out more about individuals and turning a family tree into a family history, but the tree has first to be constructed using the original data.
By all means use these other sites as a finding aid.
For example Family Search has the International Genealogical Index https://familysearch.org/search/collection/igi to births, baptisms, banns and marriages in Scotland until about 1874/5. Even so, the IGI is not complete, and the Community Contributed listings contain some very dubious information alongside the useful stuff. (If you don't believe this, try putting 'Odin' as the given name, 'Any Event' in 'Norway', from '0000' to '0900', and see what you get.)
Ancestry has one useful finding aid for constructing Scottish family trees, and that is the transcriptions of the census. However these are notorious for their inaccuracies; you cannot rely on them, so it is always necessary to check the originals, which are only available online at Scotland's People. (There are much more reliable transcriptions at FreeCEN http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl but so far the coverage in FreeCEN is only a small proportion of the available records.)
Scotland's People has digital images of the following original documents
- the surviving baptism and marriage registers of the Church of Scotland from the 16th century to 1854
- the statutory civil registers of births, marriages and death from 1855 to the present day (though there are restrictions on what you can view online: you cannot view births less than 100 years ago, marriages less than 75 years ago and deaths less than 50 years ago)
- the decennial censuses from 1841 until 100 years ago
- the baptism, marriage and death registers of the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland
- almost all wills from the earliest times until 1925
- a selection of valuation rolls from the 19th and early 20th century
The Church of Scotland registers and the 1841 to 1901 censuses can be viewed on microfilm in public libraries, archives and family history centres in Scotland, or by arranging to rent the relevant film in any of the family history centres run by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon Church). The latter also has microfiche of the statutory civil birth and marriage registers from 1866 to 1874/5.
I will mention only fleetingly the family trees you find on all these sites. Some are no doubt meticulously researched, but others are a load of rubbish. I have found trees where people were still having children years after they were dead and buried, and it's very common to find that someone has found only one candidate in the records who roughly fits their ancestor, so they hav assumed this must be the right one.
Digression - only yesterday I found a tree in which my 2nd great-uncle, who was born, married, brought up 10 of a family, was given a retirement award for 40 years' work and eventually died, all in Banffshire, allegedly had a second family (with birth dates overlapping those of the genuine family) and died in Australia. I am sure his wife (who also spent her entire life in Banffshire, and survived her husband) would have been astonished to learn of his double life several months' travel away on the other side of the world.
Then there is the story of Mary Simpson. www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=619657
So please, everyone, disabuse yourselves of the idea that you can properly build an accurate family tree without using Scotland's People. Unless your ancestors left Scotland before the early 19th century and you are prepared to go all over the place to access information on microfilm, it is simply not possible, and certainly not by using Ancestry etc alone.
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I guess I’ll need to double back on people I’m missing and try to see if somebody fits year wise rather than solely looking for listings with the mother’s maiden name. Would explain why I can’t find them.
Until the Covid pandemic, mothers' maiden surnames were only indexed for births from 1929 onwards, but during the pandemic large numbers of mothers' maiden surnames were added to the index. I believe the project to add mothers' maiden surnames to all post-1855 births in the index is continuing.
This explains why scottishlad failed to find the birth he was originally looking for.
I note with interest that his Agnes McKenzie's mother's maiden surname is one of those yet to be added to the index.
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MCKENZIE
ISAAC
TENNON
HARRIET
1855
644 / 1 / 256
GLASGOW CENTRAL DISTRICT
The above 1855 marriage will be full of useful info. which is not recorded in any other year.
It was the beginning of Statutory records & a gold mine for Genealogists, well worth the cost & more.
When looking for people, if you fail to bring up matches it's an idea to use different options for names & the 'wildcard' option which uses an asterisk e.g. M*ckenzie which will bring up both Mac & Mc.
Searches are not case sensitive.
Annie
Thank you! Yes I have that document and there is much to learn from it. Particularly Harriet’s father. On her death certificate there are no parents listed. Just a line through that section. She died from being hit by a train, so perhaps nobody there to act as informant given gruesome nature of death? Not sure. However the marriage certificate listed her father, John. Thanks for the reply!
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It's as well to remember our ancestors were capable of lying through their teeth, making up what they didn't know or twisting information to make themselves look good.
I speak from experience as I have come across all of these in some of my searches so I try to find more than one source of information.
Regards
Jen
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Yes, that is true.
Hence my signature line.