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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: pityackafromblyth on Wednesday 08 April 15 12:38 BST (UK)
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I am looking for information re the Welsh family in Hawick, or that area. Two possible ancestors may be John Welsh, born 1865 in Hawick; and also Catherine Welsh, born 1867 at Hawick. I presume they are brother and sister. A few weeks back I found John Welsh (b. Hawick) on a census for the Fife (?) area. I believe I found that on the Scotland's Peoples site.
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Hi ,
Can you tell us how you have got back to John Welsh b. 1865 ?
Found this possible reference -
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ1L-TB6
ev
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ev, From the brief note I made at the time it was Scotland's People, Forebears.
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ev, Reply No.2 from me - just clicked on your link and found that of use. Thanks.
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From the 1911 English Census free index there is a John Welsh b. c1865 Hawick with Catherine Welsh(wife?) b. c1867 Hawick , living in Northumberland.
Could that be them ?
ev
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ev, Those are the persons. John Welsh was a baker, with his own shop /business who did move to the North East, Northumberland area. Again from the brief note I made weeks back, he died in 1918, aged 52 years; and details showed that he was born in Hawick.
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The 1891 Scottish Census has a John Welsh age 26 and a Kate Welsh aged 24 both born Hawick , living Jedburgh , Roxburgh(shire).
Only looking at the index so can't give his occupation.
ev
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ev, Re that 1891 census - are there any other family members listed with them at the address ?
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1891: 15 Castlegate, Jedburgh
John Welsh 26 Confectioner B Hawick
Kate Welsh 24 Wife B Hawick
1901: Cramlington, Northumberland
John Welsh 36 Baker B Scotland
Catherine Welsh 34
John William Welsh 7
Eva Catherine Welsh 1
Definitely the same family from 1911 census in Cowpen, Northimberland
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annep5892, Yes, you are on the right track and family. But I cannot work out the John and Catherine Welsh relationship. Previous searches by me indicate they were born within 2 yrs of each other, at Hawick, and I was assuming them to be siblings.
At 1pm today I was using an XP computer, and a search on whatever disclosed those 2 again with the surname "Walsh", but I appreciate that could be due to incorrect reading of original records.
John Welsh - 'Confectioner', 'baker', and also 'journeyman', that fits in with what I have been told re his history.
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They were definitely husband and wife
I cannot find any marriage in Scotland for this couple but by doing a few searches, I think this is them... Married in Rhode Island!
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F8K9-GTT
Both sets of parents from the marriage fit perfectly with these corresponding births
John's birth?:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ1L-TB6
Catherine's birth ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQCP-GF7
Currently trying to find any info that could disprove the theory.
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I only know of one John Welsh born in Hawick in 1865 and he was the son of Robert Welsh, woolsorter, and his 1st wife Margaret Wilson (m.1865). By the time Robert Welsh married his 2nd wife Margaret Chisholm in 1871, he was a confectioner.
Robert Welsh was the son of Thomas Welsh, woolsorter, and his 2nd wife Jane Kedie (the widow of a man called Bell). Thomas Welsh was previously married to Betty Lamb. I'm afraid there are lots of widows and widowers and second marriages in this story.
Thomas Welsh, born in 1807, had an older sister called Martha Welsh born in 1803 - my 3 x great-grandmother - and an older brother called Christopher Welsh born in 1800. There was a sister called Agnes born in 1796 or -97 (must check) but I don't know any more about her.
Their parents were Thomas Welsh and Jean Ballantyne, m.1795 in Glasgow. Jean was a "Residenter in Glasgow", and I think I may have succeeded in identifying her family in the Calton area of the city. Thomas Welsh was a soldier stationed in Glasgow with the 7th Regiment of Fencibles, also known as the Southern Fencibles or Hopetoun Fencibles. I believe he was born in Roxburghshire in 1775. After his regiment was disbanded he became a coachman to Gilbert Chisholm Esq. of Stirches, Hawick.
Much of my knowledge of Thomas Welsh was gleaned from the Wanted notice published in the Edinburgh Courant and Kelso Mail in July 1808, when the procurator-fiscal's office in Hawick was taking a keen interest in his whereabouts. At the Martinmas term (November) of 1807 he had been given his three months' wages in arrears and had promptly headed into the sunset, deserting his service and abandoning his wife and 4 children. The last sighting of him by someone who knew him was at Leith docks, with an unknown woman in tow, "seeking a passage for the North". His family were reduced to poverty overnight and had to beg the Wilton kirk-session for handouts. One stipulation was that Christopher, Martha and Thomas all had to be baptised at once, something their parents had neglected to do.
When I started researching my Welsh ancestors in Hawick several decades ago, before email became common and before Scotlandspeople, I discovered a lively little network of Welsh descendants who regularly corresponded with each other - by snail-mail, of course! They were all descended from the branch of the family that this Rootschat thread is concerned with, the one that goes back to Thomas Welsh and Jean Ballantyne's youngest son Thomas (b.1807). I was included in their correspondence by a descendant in Tamworth, Staffs., and I learned a lot about that branch, and told them about my discoveries. I think that Robert Welsh the confectioner - I have at least one photo of him - became a respected member of Hawick society and I believe there was a church connection. Must rummage through my old notes. And I know that an American descendant, Irene Welsh, became an opera singer but made the mistake of going to Berlin in 1914 to study singing, and was detained for the duration of WWI as an enemy alien. Well, from the time that the USA entered the war, I suppose. She finished up as a cinema usherette back in the States.
Mustn't rattle on too much here - I'll just mention that I was contacted out of the blue years ago by a descendant of the eldest of the 4 siblings, Christopher Welsh, and he turned out to be a deputy headmaster whose office in Edinburgh was just a few hundred yards from mine. Christopher Welsh became a coachman like his ne'er-do-well father.
I'll be glad to answer any questions, but I don't know anything about your John Welsh and his life in Northumberland.
Harry Watson
(Edinburgh)
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hdw, Harry, Thanks for what you have posted. It is very interesting and will have to take my time over its contents. Occupation - 'confectioner' - looks like the son, John Welsh, followed his father's trade. I have also sent you a PM thanking you.
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hdw, Harry, Thanks for what you have posted. It is very interesting and will have to take my time over its contents. Occupation - 'confectioner' - looks like the son, John Welsh, followed his father's trade. I have also sent you a PM thanking you.
I'm just delighted to find a mention of any branch of my family on Rootschat. It doesn't happen very often! Too many people out there, and not all of them rellies.
If you have any questions just PM me again.
Harry
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Continuing this thread and the query - The Loan, Hawick. And the persons I am hoping to find were also related to the Welsh family. I had holidays in Hawick in the late 1950's. Stayed at a relatives shop which was on The Loan, (I think) either above Drumlanrig Square, or below that. The shop was a confectionery shop/tobacconist (?) if I recall correctly. It was owned by Tommy Shiel, and his wife.
My memory correct - ? If I left the shop and turned right I could walk down to the River, and Wilton Park. I have tried Google Earth the last 2 days, but what shows up does not match my memory. ;D Also taken recall The Vertish, and being taken to watch the rugby in Hawick - BIG DEAL for a Geordie footbaal fanatic. :P
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Hello! New to this so bear with me! Eva Welsh was my grandmother. She married Thomas Turnbull Warwick and lived most of her life doors down from her father's bakery at Delaval Gardens. Eva and Tommy moved back to Hawick in early 1960s and then Tommy moved back to Blyth again after she died.I'm happy to tell you more.... have photos of Welsh bakery and Welsh and Warwick family if you're interested. I know the name Tommy Shiel ...our family talk about him lots...think family may have pics too.
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Hello again, I have a lovely photo of John and Catherine Welsh (Kate) (my great grandparents) and children, Lily, John and Eva.It was taken when they lived at New Delaval, and I have another photo of some of the family outside the bakery at top of Delaval Gardens. Pityacafromblyth I too spent time going to Hawick for holidays when I was very little to visit the family up there! I grew up in New Delaval.
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Very interesting, always wondered where John and Catherine(Kate) went after Hawick,
I have a connection here with my Robson family from Hawick, Catherine born June 28th 1866 was a dau of William Robson and Ann Smith, she married John Welsh in the USA(Sept 20th 1886)they returned to Hawick and a dau Annie Smith Welsh was born in 1888 at 1 Sandbed Hawick, died infancy,
Catherines sister Janet Robson born March 17th 1864 married John Shiel 15th Nov 1887 in Hawick, they had a son Thomas, dau Annie Smith Shiel died in infancy, and son William Robson Shiel died in infancy. Janet died 1937 age 72yrs.
My notes say John and Catherine Welsh had 8 ch? Catherine Welsh died in Hawick in 1932, the informant was Thomas Shiel her nephew.
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When Robert Welsh died in 1898 in Hawick the informant for his death-certificate was his son John Welsh whose address was in Cramlington, Northumberland. Robert Welsh's father Thomas Welsh, a wool-sorter, was married to 1. Betty Lamb, and 2. Jane or Jeanie Kedie, who had formerly been married to a man called Bell. Thomas ended his days in the District Asylum in Melrose. As I said before, I'm descended from Thomas's sister Martha Welsh.
Robert Welsh started off as a wool-sorter but was a confectioner by the 1880s. He married 1. Margaret Wilson, 2. Margaret Chisholm and 3. Isabella Dalrymple Smith, a widow with 3 children who had been working as a housekeeper.
Back in the 1980s and 1990s when I was researching my family-tree I corresponded with an American descendant of the Welshes called Nancy Rougvie. I don't think she is still alive so I can probably mention her by name. There were quite a few American relatives.
Harry
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I wanted to let you know that Nancy Rougvie is still with us and is a great source for Hawick's Welsh family history. She lives in Rhode Island. I will attempt to contact her and refer her to rootschat.com. By the way, I am related to the Welsh family through my paternal grandmother, Isabelle Dalrymple Welsh. Her father is Archibald Stewart Welsh, the son of Robert Ballantyne Welsh and Isabella Dalrymple. I live in Utah, USA.
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Thanks for that, it's good to know that Nancy is still with us.
Harry