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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Leicestershire => Topic started by: Finley 1 on Wednesday 22 April 15 11:54 BST (UK)
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Was going to link this in with previous posts of Mary and family.. will attach link when I find it.
Now.......
What WE have found together is:
Mary (Raven) Patrick born c 1833 -1836 Leicester daughter of Samuel and Catherine.
then a marriage to Edward Rooms in 1855 showing Harriet Rolleston her Aunt (mother of her sister) as witness. And that she was living in Metcalfe Street.
This was a bad marriage by the looks of newspaper reports..
AND she didnt seem to actually live with Edward... cannot find them in any Census Rtns together.
So I then searched for other census returns and though I am sure I have found her previously. I cannot 're' find that ---
Not as far as I can see in any census returns... until the 1871 where she is with her 2nd husband...
or is this a.n.other Mary...
this marriage is to Martin Richardson in 1863....
The 1871 with Martin also shows a Kate Cobley living there... of the correct age - to be her sisters daughter ---Harriet married Fielden Cobley ..
Now Edward Rooms lived with his parents .. all through the census returns.. and died 1871 ish...
so if she did marry a 2nd time then she must either have divorced/annulled or become a bigamist......................................... :(
So when she married Martin Richardson (I havent sent for the cert - will have to) she was named as Mary Raven PATRICK NOT ROOMS!!!
circles within circles lead to dark holes... :)
will find the link..
sorry to be a pain x
xin
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=713358.msg5569492#msg5569492
there may be more :( sorry
xin
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This Mary to start us off?
MARY PATRICK parents SAMUEL & CATHERINE bapt 1836 16-Mar ST MARGARET'S
(her sibling Sarah was bapt in Dec 1833 then there's this 2+ year gap so 1835-6 seems likely for her birth. An older daughter Mary Ann bapt 1829 presumably died).
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what address do you have for Edward Rooms? Ws it Charlotte St?
This might be his burial at Welford Rd, plot uR 318:
ROOME EDWARD 1875 OCT 30 39 LEICESTER INFIRMARY
WATERFIELD LOUISA 1876 JUL 31 25 CHARLOTTE STREET
DRAYCOTT JOSEPH 1879 FEB 6 68 CHARLOTTE STREET
GARNER SARAH JANE 1879 MAR 15 2WKS CHARLOTTE STREET
no matching family names but a Charlotte St plot, maybe neighbours clubbed together to get a shared plot!!
Now the age would fit -- b 1836 --- but this would make Mary's second marriage well and truly bigamous unless she was divorced --
how sure are you that the marriage to Martin Richardson is your Mary?
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I'm struggling with the Richardsons. I can see Martin in 1861 (with his parents) and 1871 (with his wife Mary) then nothing until 1901 (with another wife Selina although there are no marriages on freeBMD to lend credence to that!)
He died in 1913 and is buried with several babies from the 1850s plus a couple of folk called Long from many years beforehand -- so not a family grave.
O 301 MARTIN RICHARDSON 1913 APR 23 age 70 NORTH E. INFIRMARY
So where is Martin between 1871 - 1901 and more relevantly to you, what happens to Mary?
I can't see a burial in Welford Rd for a Mary Richardson of a suitable age at all.
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Aha. Leic Chronicle 1 Feb 1879
Died; On the 28 ult, Mary, wife of Mr Martin Richardson, Carley St, Leicester, age 37
so this is Mary Richardson, Welford Rd plot uH 673
NORMAN HENRY 1851 AUG 11 8 FROG ISLAND SAINT LEONARD
BALL SUSAN 1877 JUN 16 35 PALMERSTON STREET SAINT MARGARET
BALL WILLIAM 1879 JAN 1 6MTHS LEADENHALL STREET SAINT MARGARET
RICHARDSON MARY 1879 JAN 31 37 CARLEY STREET SAINT MARGARET
COX THOMAS 1924 NOV 10 79 39 ORSON STREET LEICESTER
not sure that that helps at all :-\
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Oh dear
2+1/2 weeks before Mary Richardson's death, Martin was sentenced to 6 weeks hard labour for stealing a turkey :-\. The court report refers to him as "Martin Richardson alias Navvy".
March 1879 he was summonsed for not sending his children to school (7, Hextalls Yard, Carley St) then there were a variety of other court appearances from various addresses including Feb 1881, from Charles St;
"charged with neglecting his two children, leaving them chargeable to the common funds of the Leicester Union. -- the children came upon the parish on the 12 October -- defendant said that school board had been the ruin of him. He was sent to prison for 14 days in default of paying a fine of 10s, for neglecting to send his children to school. Since then he could get no work, and had to leave the town. Prisoner was sentenced to one month's hard labour"
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by 1882 he was being described as "an old offender", of no fixed abode, drunk and disorderly, 10th court appearance.
1884 - 3 mths hard labour on his 3rd appearance for deserting his children. One child had since died; the other was 10 years old.
lots more court appearances for theft, drunkenness etc.
1890 - neglecting his wife and children (this would presumably be Selina) -- he said she was not his wife and her husband was still alive!
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It looks as though the children were Elizabeth and Ellen Richardson; both admitted to the workhouse on 12 Oct 1880, Eliz aged 10 and Ellen aged 8; religion given as "chapel" (though Ellen was "church of England" in 1883)
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Annie your a marvel :) thank you - I just popped out to get some 'Raspberry canes' :) and you find all this... I am about to digest it all now.. thank you :) Mary sure did seem to pick 'bad uns'
??? ::)
xin
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The main reason that I deduced that Mary Richardson married to Martin was due to 1871 - Hextall Court - she has a niece living with her called Kate Coble age 6 ---
so because her sister Harriet was married to Fielden Cobley (another BOUNDER!) and had a daughter Kate of the correct age... I put two and two together... So what I have to do is see if there is another Kate CobleY around in 1871 .... maybe.
I have sent for the cert for Martin and Mary - Willsy gave me that info firstly (thanks Willsy :) ) and it was a registry office marriage. I then checked it out on free bmd and it gives her name as - Mary Raven Patrick.....................
Either this family had a liking for rogue's or they were a 6d short of a shilling me thinks..
of course, when I think about it.... and the area they lived - and the professions of the family, they were hard times and their mother was a little naughty by managing to produce a child (or two?!) after their father died... What a fascinating crew.. A real Catherine Cookson lot surely :) get it down on paper ay!!!
Really appreciate your help -
I have read and re- read the papers but cant find the details that you find -- It needs so much patience to read them - thank you :)
Is it in the papers that you find out about the court judgements?
Well now the poor Raspberries are going to have to wait till tomorrow to go in... cos I have just got a.n.other (segunda mano :) ) laptop to use specifically for the family tree. and it needs setting up.xin
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Yep, I got all the court reports from the newspapers. I have a sub to the British Newpaper Archive which provides an endless supply of fascinating material! In this case I did an exact search on "Martin Richardson" then narrowed it down to 1850-99 and to Leicester and came up with all the above.
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Brilliant - really interesting bits and pieces of info..
thank you
xin
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Aha, I think I have Martin in 1891
Martin Richardson, boarder, age 49, hay trusser, b Leicester
Lodging in 9 court C Upper Charles St with the widowed Selina Brewer, age 45, and her 3 sons - I think this is the same Selina as was described as his "wife" in 1901.
yes, just checked; Selina "Richardson" and her sons Charles, Daniel and Frank were all admitted to the workhouse a few times over 1889-92, and the childrens' names match the 1891 census. So that's the right Selina.
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and this would appear to be Mary and Martin's older daughter
Deaths Dec 1883
Richardson Elizabeth 14 Leicester 7a 120
(she died 3 Dec 1883 in the workhouse)
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oh thank you... so sad for the little one - bless her.
xin
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Please let us know when you get the cert if it is the right Mary Patrick!
And if it is -- then we will need to work out how she got away with marrying bigamously when everyone in leic knew and/or was related to everyone else!
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Aha. Leic Chronicle 1 Feb 1879
Died; On the 28 ult, Mary, wife of Mr Martin Richardson, Carley St, Leicester, age 37
so this is Mary Richardson, Welford Rd plot uH 673
NORMAN HENRY 1851 AUG 11 8 FROG ISLAND SAINT LEONARD
BALL SUSAN 1877 JUN 16 35 PALMERSTON STREET SAINT MARGARET
BALL WILLIAM 1879 JAN 1 6MTHS LEADENHALL STREET SAINT MARGARET
RICHARDSON MARY 1879 JAN 31 37 CARLEY STREET SAINT MARGARET
COX THOMAS 1924 NOV 10 79 39 ORSON STREET LEICESTER
not sure that that helps at all :-\
CRIKEY this also solves the problem of Susannah..... I think - maybe - possibly.... oooh
Susanna Patrick was born to Catherine in 1841 (after Samuel died and before she married John Moore !!) in 1851 she is with alic Parker catherines sister and family, and she was witness to JRP's wedding...
Then nothing but Willsy found a possible marriage to a Thomas Ball in 1875!!!
so maybe this susan BALL - 1879 death is her.... I will have to go through it all and check.. but it could be a possibility
xin
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Will do :) they reckon the 29th ish.. so fingers crossed, but the site is doing some work this weekend so we will see.
It will be me next on Lee's corner, to pay for all this lot :) :) :) ooooh dear
xin
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I can't keep up!
Can't wait for the certificates :)
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:) :) -- Will fill you in... am on tenterhooks :)
What a family -- I am awful I know but I have to giggle quietly when I think about them.. vagabonds or what !? :) bless em.
xin
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Well recieved first two of the latest batch of certs ordered...
One is definitely mine
1848 Mary Raven wife of John Raven she died at the age of 83 due to 'DECAY OF NATURE' bless her
present at death = her daughter Alice Parker. So all I need for her is her maiden name..........
The John Raven 1837 I sent for thinking it to be her husband (and stating on the order aged 74!!!) I got was not him, but a possible rellie...
It is of a boy of 4 yrs 4 months who died due to Typhoid Fever... poor baby the death was actually registered on DEC. 25th... 1837 and present at Death was John Raven Father of Lewin Street.
Framework Knitter.
So NOT sure where this boy fits... as havent got a birth for a John Raven 1833 in my lot.
(as yet!!) but did have info on the John Raven of Lewin Street - from the papers regarding him having a drunken night out and his watch stolen.. so looking at that and the people he was with at the time, a certain John Flavell, all rings bells as if they share a house or something somewhere.. will have to check up on him. crazy bunch.
WHY did they use the same 'forename' over and over again... :) :)
Hopefully today will get a.n.other cert - that of Joseph Monk and his wife Mary nee Patrick to see who she is the daughter of hopefully.
Be glad when I can say enough with this lot in some ways - although very interesting also very confusing.. :P :-[ ??? :)
xin
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Got the certs !!!!!
oh dear me... going to have to spend some time sorting this one.
OK....
they seem to be the SAME person...
Cert one 1855
Mary Patrick age 19 - married to Edward Rooms 19 from Metcalf Street... she is spinster, he is shoemaker (or criminal :) ) and her Father is SAMUEL PATRICK fwk.
Witnesses the Rollestons....
Cert two 1863
Now here it shows
Mary RAVEN Patrick age 25 - married to Martin Richardson again she is from Metcalfe St. She is Spinster he is a Higglar (or again a criminal :) ) and her Father is SAMUEL PATRICK deceased.
Witnesses John Rolleston and Eliza Elliott.
The first marriage in the Church the 2nd in the register office.................
So there you go... more to check out
Was there such a thing as 'annullment' in those days???
if not then I must ensure there was not a.n.other mary born to Sam and Catherine that survived....
there was one born and died in 1829/1830....
Martin Richardson has a large criminal records files in the newspaper as does Edward Rooms.
Maybe the poor lady - just wasnt the full shilling..
Did we find her in 1861... will have to go through my records
cos I have Edward Rooms with his parents in 1861.
uhm uhm uhm and the GARDEN needs work :)
xin
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Well ? 2 years down the road ... and still on the quest of sorting this 'wayward' family out.
I decided that Mary was a 'bigamist' without really understanding what this was?
Cant prove that she was just a silly girl and 'flighty' to say the least but accepting that she was married to two men at the same time or very nearly the same time. Both not extremely the best partner to choose.
Edward Rooms - seemed never to actually live with her long enough ??? to reproduce ... so maybe there was an 'anullment' where would I look???
ANYWAY the two Girls she had with Martin Richardson, as we know went into the workhouse due to Fathers neglect!!!!!!!!!!!!! aaaargh.
Bless her Elizabeth died... in there age 14 BUT Ellen went on to marry and have Eight children :) --
I have Today received her marriage cert and it says she was the daughter of Martin Richardson Hay Trusser ---
She seems to have survived until 1944 :) --- which is absolutely fantastic considering the start she had in life. xxxxx
Xin
so am still on the case with this one.
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Aha. Leic Chronicle 1 Feb 1879
Died; On the 28 ult, Mary, wife of Mr Martin Richardson, Carley St, Leicester, age 37
so this is Mary Richardson, Welford Rd plot uH 673
NORMAN HENRY 1851 AUG 11 8 FROG ISLAND SAINT LEONARD
BALL SUSAN 1877 JUN 16 35 PALMERSTON STREET SAINT MARGARET
BALL WILLIAM 1879 JAN 1 6MTHS LEADENHALL STREET SAINT MARGARET
RICHARDSON MARY 1879 JAN 31 37 CARLEY STREET SAINT MARGARET
COX THOMAS 1924 NOV 10 79 39 ORSON STREET LEICESTER
not sure that that helps at all :-\
CRIKEY this also solves the problem of Susannah..... I think - maybe - possibly.... oooh
Susanna Patrick was born to Catherine in 1841 (after Samuel died and before she married John Moore !!) in 1851 she is with alic Parker catherines sister and family, and she was witness to JRP's wedding...
Then nothing but Willsy found a possible marriage to a Thomas Ball in 1875!!!
so maybe this susan BALL - 1879 death is her.... I will have to go through it all and check.. but it could be a possibility
xin
I am nearly there with this one :)
REGARDING SUSANNAH PATRICK illegitimate daughter of Catherine Kitty Raven and Joseph Glover.
Well Thankfully another one that managed to shake off her roots and though I am not sure there was an actual marriage, she lived with Henry Ayres for a while and they produced a daughter Clara.
Susannah - had changed her name to Susan and married Thomas Ball... in 1875.
But is shown on the 1861 as
Susan Paterick living with Henry Ayres and daughter Clara age 3 months. :)
Today I received Clara Ayres cert and it shows her Father as Henry and her mother as Susan formerly Patrick.. ( this saying they are married but are not really ----- lark amongst this crew is scary)
The 1871
shows Susan Ball living with husband Thomas and
Daughter Clara Alice Ayres.
Still looking for Thomas in the 1881 to prove Susan died 1877.
Again I have followed Clara and she married William Payne and had four children and then died in 1922..
So another 'stem continues' - and another loose end tidied....
These ere Patricks and Ravens will NOT better me....... crazy bunch - but they are mine :) :)
brilliant.
xin
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thanks for the update Xin!
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Yes -- long hard but 'worthy' Road.
;) :D
xin