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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: Boongie Pam on Tuesday 20 July 04 12:13 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
I'm posting this offer here rather than the main offer board as it is a very narrow scope of interest.
I have a need/desire/whim to have another look at the 1801/1811/1821 census for Annan. The book I have access to is the George Gilchrist transcript - not the original film which is available through the LDS I think.
If you let me know on this thread what names you are interested in I'll let you know what is there.
Most surviving early census i.e. pre-1841 are simple headcounts. The difference in Annan is that people are named. The ages are not to be relied on the instruction for the enumerator was to guess!
My direct family are well documented on all three census and it all ties in to births and marriages but I know I'm lucky.
Cheers,
PAm
;D
PS I'll be going to the National library (where this book is) on Monday 26th - work allowing
Update: I've bought new shoes :) but they are blisteringly sore >:( so I'll be going the library tomorrow... P ;D
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Hi I notaced your kinde offer to do a look up on early Annan I would be moste gratfull for info on
Mary Dougals b 1834 father John Douglas mother Jean Irving other names conected to the above are all from Annan
Sewell , Scott
many thanks
audrey
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Hiya Audrey,
Hope to get to the library very soon (tomorrow).
Who are your Scotts? I've already written all the Scotts out for the Early Census, 1841 and about 2/3rds of the OPRs. I can send these to you if you want - pm me your email address if you would like all the files. Alternatively let me know your specific interest and I'll post any connected info here.
My Scotts, starting at my brickwall are..
John Scott and Helen Carruthers both of Annandale lawfully married 14th Jan 1823
They had 9 children one was Helen Scott who married Michael Fallen she is my 3xgreat grandmother.
I've been up a few blind alleys as there are squads of John Scotts in Annan!
Cheers,
Pam
;D
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Hi Audrey,
I have to apologies I thought I'd come back to you on your question about Jean Irving & C Scott in Annan.
My grand mother was born in Kirkpatrick Flemming in 1834 I have her Parents the were
John Douglas and Jean Irving Jeans mother is listed as C scott of Anan
I looked at all the Irvings in Annan and noted any where the wife had a forename beginning with C. I found this on...
1801
Lauriston
421
Robert Irving
Christain Irving
Charles Irving
Jean Irving
William Irving
(ag 3)
In 1811 there is even less info!
1811
Port Annan
413
Chrisr. Irving Sp dau
This is odd as it implies Chrisr. is the husband but the 1811 is of very poor quality of info.
There is nothing that fits in 1821. Again sorry about the delay and I hope this fits or helps.
Next step I guess if it looks promising is to see if Christain Irving is nee Scott?
Cheers,
Pam
;D
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Pam
thanks for getting back to me, do you know that every name I am doing particularly Irving Douglas and Sewell I have had troule with I have been helping 3 people with the same names as me ,the 1 doing Sewell has gone back 3 generations with the info I gave her and the Douglas conection has got back to 1680 me I am no further than I was 6 years ago thanks any way, I have got a bit off the Scotlands people site and I am trying to get a conection there
audrey
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Well I hope you stumble on that gem that ties it all together...
Good luck,
Pam
;D
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HI Boongie Pam
If you go back to the Library one day and it's not too much trouble
I'd appreciate a lookup on the Annan census for PRINGLE. I'm in Canada and can't find this info.
Thanks for the offer
Parachute
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I noticed you offer and wondered if it was possible to look up a Robert Heard wife Jane (Rutherford) Children William Elizabeth Annie Andrew Joseph James and Mary in Annan Or HalfMorton. Maybe they are the same Place?
Don
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Hiya Donald and parachute,
I'll hopefully make it to thelibrary next week sometime, my reading ticket has run out but I need to go again myself.
Cheers,
Pam
;D
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HI
SEE YOU HAVE KINDLY OFFERED TO LOOK UP THE EARLY CENSUS FOR ANNAN. i AM LOOKING FOR JAMES PERCY AND HIS PARENTS/FAMILY. HE WAS BORN C 1848 IN ANNAN. PLEASE CAN YOU HELP
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Sorry it has taken so long to get back on this thread it isn't a library I go to often.
Reet!
No Heard's I'm afraid.
No Percy's Sorry - Halfmorton is a different place to Annan.
There are a few Pringle's but I only have the names not what year they are from - so I need to get hold of the book again.
I may not get there again for ages?
Pam
;D
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Hi Pam,
I'm new to these lists and I have just come across your lookup offer. If you happen to be looking in the relevant books again I am interested in:
Palmers in Annan - especially a William PALMER (born c 1820) whose father was a William Palmer I believe, other children may be Agnes Gisbon PALMER, John PALMER and I think their mother may have been a Mary BELL.
Also for IRVINGs about the same time espacially a Helen Jardine IRVING born in the 1820's whose parent I think were James IRVING & Elizabeth HOPE.
I would be most grateful for any information that you came across
Thanks
Sharon
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Hi RE: your post Early Annan Census - look up offer
I have found a William Walker born 1794 Annan parents Joseph Walker/ Jean Irving I would really love to know if this William Walker married a Flora Gilchrist or if he was a jeweller. If he is the William I think he is he was dead by 1823-27 do you think it is possible to find him on early Annan census or indeed to see if the father Joseph is a jeweller? ::)
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Hi irret,
I won't be able to get the Central Library for a few weeks as my boss is on holiday so when the library is open I'll be chained to my desk.
As for what info is available, the early census is literally just a list of names loosely split by household.
There are no occupations so there may not be any mention of Joseph's occupation.
Hope to get back to the library as soon as but please forgive any delay. If you have an Ancestry subscription the early census for Annan is available in the parsh & probate section. Unfortunately I don't have access.
All the best,
Pam
;D
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Thank you I will await your kind offer with interest. Thank you. :)
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Hi Pam
I am intersted in your kind lookup offer for Annan. I am looking for information on James Irving born abt 1777 married in 1798 in Annan to a Mary Turner. i think their first child was Sarah Irving born abt 1800. Would it be possible for you to have a look for me and see what you can turn up i would be greatly obliged
regards wallace23
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I would like copys of any census information going back from the Lindsay family of high Street Annan.
This family lived here for some time and the male side of the family were butchers (fleshers).
John Lindsay and his wife Mary(Bell) lived here and they had 10 children.
This is what I have so far.
The 1821 Census of Annan
John Lindsay 40 recorded as 40 years of age or less!.
spouse 40 recorded as 40 years of age or less!.
2 girls 10
1 boy 5
These children would have been of his marriage to Nicholas Reid and his first son by Mary Bell. They were not on the 1841 census as being at home and would have been in their early 20s at that stage (in 841).
The 1841 census provides the following information.
All residing at 8 Battery Street, Annan in 1841.
John Lindsay 50 Flesher
Mary Lindsay 40
Margsaret Lindsay 15
David Lindsay 15
Janet Lindsay 11
John Lindsay 9
Lawrence Lindsay 9
Mary Lindsay 6
Daniel Lindsay 4
Elisabeth Lindsay 1
John Lindsay
buried 17 mar 1848 Annan
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Hello,
I see Donald was requesting a lookup of Robert Heard and his wife Jane Rutherford, and children, from Half Morton, Annan. Scotland.
Robert and Jane our my great-great-great grandparents through their daughter Elizabeth Heard (later Boundy). The family came to Canada in the early 1850s settling in southern Ontario and eventually to Haliburton, Ontario. I would be very happy to share info with Donald - if he is still out there.
Jim
Ontario, Canada
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Hello Pam
I see this is a long standing thread - if the offer is still on could you give me anything you have on Porteous (or variants - Porteus, Portus.) in Annan.
Do you know if George Gilchrist's book/s are still obtainable?
Regards and thank you,
Ceeoh
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George Gilchrist was my grandfather, perhaps I can find out what happened to these records for you. Also I had a teacher at Elmvale primary school called Miss Porteous, she is now Mrs Stewart/Stuart and teaches at Newington primary school.
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Hello LB
Thanks for your reply. How exciting to have found a relative of George Gilchrist. He was instrumental in establishing - with the Jardine family - my particular connection through Dunty Porteous the Ghost of Spedlins Tower. (A very long story!) This particular branch of the Porteous family is huge, the Scottish families being scattered (mainly) throughout Dumfriesshire.
I have several photo copies obtained from Lockerby library of MIs but by no means do the few I have cover this widely spread family.
Any of your grandfather's works that you may be able to guide me to would be very much appreciated.
I see this is your first post to Rootschat - welcome and thank you for replying to my query.
Regards
Ceeoh
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To LB
Do you know if your ex teacher is interested in her Porteous family history? If you are in touch with her perhaps you could tell her there is to be a Porteous Associates Reunion in Edinburgh, weekend 11th - 13th September this year. Porteous families world wide will be attending - always an excellent get-together.
Regards
Ceeoh
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HI LB, my apologies, I referred to your grandfather as Tom - I do know he was George. Unable to send another pm RC limited you to one (presumably until you have further posts).
Ceeoh
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Hello LB
Thanks for your reply. How exciting to have found a relative of George Gilchrist. He was instrumental in establishing - with the Jardine family - my particular connection through Dunty Porteous the Ghost of Spedlins Tower. (A very long story!) This particular branch of the Porteous family is huge, the Scottish families being scattered (mainly) throughout Dumfriesshire.
I have several photo copies obtained from Lockerby library of MIs but by no means do the few I have cover this widely spread family.
Any of your grandfather's works that you may be able to guide me to would be very much appreciated.
I see this is your first post to Rootschat - welcome and thank you for replying to my query.
Regards
Ceeoh
Ceeoh~
I am a Jardine in California. At our annual Scottish Gathering and Games of San Francisco/Pleasanton, in perhaps 1998, we met a Porteous descendant and asked if he might bring other family members the following year, and he did! Perhaps 12 or Jardines and 8 Porteous got together. We offered our regrets and apologies for the injustice done to Dunty, which were accepted, then we shared a great many "wee drams" and family stories.
I edited the Jardine newsletters for the western U.S. and did much research under the tutelage of Jerry Jardine FSA Scot and came into posession of the "blueprint drawings" of the original Spedlins tower, reconstructed and generated partly from historical documents and partly by newer analysis by a government agency for the architect who rebuilt/remodeled it for modern living not too long ago.
What was interesting was the "dungeon". It was built under the staircase, just beneath the lower living quarters (which were on 2nd & 3rd stories) on the ground level where livestock and stores were kept. The awful thing was that it was only three feet wide, twelve feet long and 9 feet tall. Completely windowless, and the only access was a tiny "trap door" in the ceiling.
I have seen varying stories about why Dunty was imprisoned. What I was taught by Jerry Jardine was that Dunty was FALSLEY accused of setting the mill on fire. What are your views on this?
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The awful thing was that it was only three feet wide, twelve feet long and 9 feet tall.
This would be ONE meter wide, 4 meters long and 3 meters tall.
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Hello elliejardine
Many thanks for your mail.
Will send you a pm.
Regards
Ceeoh
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I see your original post is from quite some time ago, but if you are still able to do look ups from early Annan Census please could you look at the following.
My ancestor William Graham Steel(e) I know he died in 1883 and on his death record states he was 74 years old, therefore birth in around 1809. All census records from 1851 - 1881 stated Annan as his birth place.
His death record also named his parents : David Steele (farmer) married to Jane Steele (nee Steele)
I cannot find a record of his birth, I cannot confirm his parents on any census records 1841 onwards and don't know of any siblings for William. All of which I am keen to find out.
I have found a marriage record for David Steel marrying Jean Steele in Ecclefechan in 1803 but don't know if this is one and the same?
William married Joan Weild in 1839 and they lived in Dornock, His children are named: Jane, Janet, David, Jamesie-Dobie, George, William-W, John-Johnstone and Robert which might be relevent based on the old naming pattern for scots/irish families?
Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.
Sincerely
Kate Hennessy nee Steele
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Hi,
I have the Eary Annan Census for 1801 1811 & 1821 if anyone would like me to check up for them.
cupcake
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Hi Cupcake
I posted the request above yours yesterday and would appreciate any help you can with William Graham Steel(e) and his parents Davis Steel(e) (farmer) and Jane/Jean Steel(e) nee Steele
William was born around 1809
Many Thanks
Kate Steele
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Hi Shezzy,
Was reading your post and thought I would add this info for Palmer.(Doesn't give a lot of information, though)
1801 Annan Census - Burgh North Side - Mary Palmer, Elizabrth Pool. Murray Street William Palmer,cottr, Mary Palmer, John Palmer,(manf.2) 'cottr' was an abbreviation of the word 'cottoneer' meaning those who worked in the cotton factory, which was established in 1785
1811 Annan Census - BUTT Street - Wm. Palmer, Spo, 2m. 3fem.
cupcake
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Hi skasd,
There are lots of Steel's in the 1801/1811/1821 census's all spelt without the 'e'. Was William Steel's father Davis or David?
Will go through them and get back asap.
cupcake
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Hi,
I am trying to trace back my Lindsay ancestors in Annan . I have them already traced back to Battery street in Annan in 1841 as Fleshers (butchers) . There main place of business seemed to be as Fleshers (butchers) in High street Annan though.
I am wondering if there are many Lindsays in Annan in these early census's pre 1821 which would enable me to trace my 3rd gr grandfather John Lindsay and David Lindsay also Daniel Lindsay Fleshers (butchers)
Would it be difficult to get a list of all of the Lindsays in Annan on those early census records.
Thank you for whatever you can provide.
A New Zealander of Scots ancestry.
Christopher Leonard Patterson
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skasd,
Found these with the names David Steel/Jane/Jean Steel. The early census's don't give an awful lot of info.
1801 Census
HILLTON David Steel,Eliza Smith,Jean Steel,John Steel,Mary Steel,David Steel, George Steel. (Ag.4) I assume the Ag means Agriculture.
1811 Census
ALLALEE Jean Steel,Elizabeth,Robert,John, George, William. (Ag.)
1821 Census
STIRKPOOL Jane Steel 40, David Steel 10, John Steel 10, Will 10, Eliz 20, Beoni (fem) 5 Rebecca 5. (I think the ages could be incorrect)
cupcake
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Hi Floyd11,
Shall have a search for you and get back to you, soon.
cupcake
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Hi Floyd11,
These are all the Lindsay's from the 1801/1811/1821 census's.
1801
BURGH NORTH SIDE Daniel Lindsay, but, Jean Lindsay,Margaret Lindsay,Eiley Lindsay,Jenet Lindsay, Henrietta Lindsay, Jean Lindsay, (manf.1)
1811
PORT STREET William, Joseph, James, John, Margt. Roxburgh, William Irving, Edward Farish, William Matthews, James Farish, maid Lindsay (manf.)
BATTERY Daniel, Jean, Ailey, Mary Lindsay (manf.)
HOWSE (HOWES) James Holiday, spouse, John, Tristram, James McPherson, L;Andw. Douglas, Da. Murray, Dav. Lindsay Fra. Coultart. Ja. Kerr, three maids (ag.)
[
b]1821 Census[/b]
HALLMEADOW John Lindsay 40, Spouse 40, two girls 10, a boy 5.
QUEENSBERRY ARMS Daniel Lindsay 40, spouse 40, son 20 Daug. 20
Hope it helps. The 'manf.' abbreviations - manufacture
cupcake
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Hi!,
The Lindsay's at Hallmeadow seem to be the family. I did not know about the Hallmeadow location though it may prove helpful.
Of course ages seem a bit rounded though.
The Battery road family in 1811 I think are the likely parents of John at Hallmeadow but nothing is really obvious.
Thanks a lot for your help.
One other query I was wondering if there were any Reid, Reed or Bell familys in Annan on the same census.?
Interested also if there was a Benson at the Queensberry arms in 1821.?
I wonder also who the Flesher was in High St in Annan during these Census's.?
Sorry if too many questions
But thanks anyway
Chris L. Patterson In New Zealand
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Thanks cupcake - will have to see if it fits my William PALMER
EVERYTHING is useful when you have a brick wall :)
Thank you
Shezzy
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Hi Cupcake
Thank you for the information on all the Steels - not sure which, if any, are relevent but it gives me something to work with and see if I can fit the pieces together to confirm Williams family prior to marriage.
Just on another tack if anyone can help, 2 of Williams children have middle names which I think are sometimes passed down the family. John Johnstone Steel(e) - Johnstone I see is a place in Dumfries as well as a common surname in the area. Also Jamesie Dobie Steele - Dobie also being a common name in the area - if anyone knows of any links that would be fantastic.
Regards
Kate
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Hi Floyd11,
Hopefully some of the information will help.
I looked at the Annan Old Parish Church graveyard Memorial Inscriptions and this appears to be the only one.
Errected in memory of John Lindsay who died in Annan 17th March 1848 aged 62 years. And Mary Bell his wife who died 3rd May 1853 aged 52 years. Also John Lindsay ther son who died in Australia 8th February 1860 aged 27 years. Also David Lindsay their son who died in Australia 2nd October 1861 aged 35 years.
There is only one Benson in the 1821 census - HALLMEADOW Baillie Benson, spouse,John, James, Joseph.
Not found a Flesher at the moment.
You asked about Bells and Reids. Not sure what year.
1801 there are 52 Bells & 4 Reids
1811 there are 42 Bells & 6 Reids
1821 there are 35 Bells & 7 Reids.
cupcake
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Hi skasd,
Not sure if this has any connection. It's from the Annan Old Parish Church graveyard MI's. Could fit in with the 1811 census. I was going by the David & Jane Steel.
In memory of Rosina Kennedy spouse to Robert Steel in Dumbrettan who died 22nd November 1806 aged 67 years and the above Robert Steel who died at Dumbrettan 3rd March 1823 aged 81 years. Also David Steel their son who died at Allalee 22nd April 1810 aged 33 years and Jane Steel his wife who died in Annan 12th December 1860 aged 78 years. Also George Steel their son who died at Kilkenny in Ireland 29th February 1832 aged 24 years. And Mary Steel their daughter who died in Annan 3rd June 1878 aged 75 years.
cupcake
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Hi Floyd11,
This is from the Annan Old Parish Church graveyard Memorial Inscriptions. Might be useful.
In memory of Joseph Benson of the Queensberry Arms Annan who died 23rd November 1826 aged 50 years. Also John Benson his son who died 16th April1835 aged 28 years. And Joseph Benson his son who died 12th November 1836 aged 26 years. Also Laurence Benson his son who died at Hilltop 21st August 1841 aged 26 years. And James Benson his son who died 7th June 1847 aged 35 years. Also William Benson his elder son Major of the Hon.E.I.Cs 4th Lancers who died at Cawnpore India 8th October 1848 aged 44 years and Amelia Ann Benson wife of the above William Benson who died at Cawnpore 22nd January 1849 aged43 years. Also Charles Benson his son who died 16th March 1850 aged 33 years. And Mary Sproat relict of the above Joseph Benson Senr. who died 12th April 1850 aged 74 years. Janet J Benson widow of James Benson died 20th May 1893.
cupcake
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Hi irret,
Was reading your post and, found this in the Annan Old Parish Church graveyard Memorial Inscriptions. There maybe a connection and, help you.
In memory of James Walker joiner. James son of Joseph Walker in Annan who died at Trinidad in November 1824 aged 33 years. And the above Joseph Walker who died 17th February 1827 aged 70 years. Also Jane Irving his spouse who died 4th October 1835 aged 76 years and William Walker shoemaker their son who died at Annan 5th November 1849 aged 53 years. Jannet Walker their daughter who died at Annan 25 October 1854 aged 65 years.
cupcake
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1851 Census Could these be yours.
Name: LINDSAY , Daniel
Address: High Street(812)
Parish: Annan
Relationship: household of George Lindsay
Marital Status:
Occupation: ERRAND BOY
Age: 13
Born: born Annan Dms
Household No: 1/10
Name: LINDSAY , Elisabeth
Address: High Street(812)
Parish: Annan
Relationship: wife of George Lindsay
Marital Status: married
Occupation:
Age: 37
Born: born England
Household No: 1/10
Name: LINDSAY , George
Address: High Street(812)
Parish: Annan
Relationship: head of household
Marital Status: married
Occupation: BUTCHER master
Age: 59
Born: born Annan Dms
Household No: 1/10
Name: LINDSAY , Mary
Address: High Street(812)
Parish: Annan
Relationship: household of George Lindsay
Marital Status:
Occupation: SERVANT house
Age: 15
Born: born Annan Dms
Household No: 1/10
Name: LINDSAY , William
Address: High Street(812)
Parish: Annan
Relationship: son of George Lindsay
Marital Status:
Occupation: SCHOLAR
Age: 10
Born: born Annan Dms
Household No: 1/10
Name: LINDSAY , Alice
Address: Watchhill(812)
Parish: Annan
Relationship: sister of Lawrence Lindsay
Marital Status:
Occupation: SCHOLAR
Age: 8
Born: born Annan Dms
Household No: 6/98
Name: LINDSAY , David
Address: Watchhill(812)
Parish: Annan
Relationship: brother of Lawrence Lindsay
Marital Status: unmarried
Occupation: FISHER
Age: 24
Born: born Annan Dms
Household No: 6/98
Name: LINDSAY , Janet
Address: Watchhill(812)
Parish: Annan
Relationship: sister of Lawrence Lindsay
Marital Status: unmarried
Occupation: DRESSMAKER
Age: 21
Born: born Annan Dms
Household No: 6/98
Name: LINDSAY , John
Address: Watchhill(812)
Parish: Annan
Relationship: twin brother of Lawrence Lindsay
Marital Status: unmarried
Occupation: FLESHER
Age: 18
Born: born Annan Dms
Household No: 6/98
Name: LINDSAY , Lawrence
Address: Watchhill(812)
Parish: Annan
Relationship: head of household
Marital Status: unmarried
Occupation: FLESHER
Age: 18
Born: born Annan Dms
Household No: 6/98
Name: LINDSAY , Mary
Address: Watchhill(812)
Parish: Annan
Relationship: mother of Lawrence Lindsay
Marital Status: widow
Occupation:
Age: 50
Born: born Gretna Dms
Household No: 6/98
cupcake
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Hi!,
Thank you for the piles of information you have provided.
I find the Benson churchyard memorials quite touching so many of the family died . It is interesting in my study of the Annan Lindsays because Lawrence Lindsay in the 1851 census took the name Benson as his middle name.
Also that 1851 census is interesting because Mary and Daniel in it are sister and brother of the head of the household though the census does not say that.
Thanks again
Chris the Kiwi
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Hi!,
Thank you for the Information on John Lindsay and Mary Bell in the monumental inscriptions of Annan Churchyard...they are both proven direct line ancestors of mine.
I have never been able to find a marriage for them anywhere but going on their first childs birth they must have been married about 1820. Mary Bell from subsequent census records appears to have been born in Gretna ...so I wonder if they were married there.?
Another question?
Cheers from Chris the Kiwi
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You're most welcome.
Yes, I found the Benson churchyard memorials a tad sad, so many died so young.
Had hoped you would find the 1851 census interesting and, has given you some relevent information.
cupcake
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Good to hear John Lindsay and Mary Bell are your direct line of ancestors. Your are very fortuante to have their death details from the MI's. I haven't been able to find my GGG Grandparents death and burial details. There are no death records for Annan, before 1855 :'(
Shall do some searching at the library, to see if I can find your John & Mary's marriage for around 1820.
cupcake
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No luck at the library. I looked for a marriage on the OPR's as well as a birth for Mary Bell, but nothing.
I am sure I saw a marriage for a John Lindsay and Nicholas Reid but, didn't make the connection, as I hadn't the info with me.
cupcake
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Hi!
Yes thanks i know about the John Lindsay Nicholas Reid Marriage of 27 April 1815 Annan, that was his first wife who seems to have disappeared about 1819.
Nickolas Reid had a sister Catherine who married Thomas Youd from the Isle Of Man.
They had Jane Lindsay born 1816 and her son was a Prime Minister of New Zealand Richard John Seddon.
I am descended from the Mary Bell and John Lindsay side.
Cheer from Chris the Kiwi
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Hello again,
Have you ever been to the UK and visited Annan. The reason I ask this, if you haven't, I could go to the churchyard and see if there are headstones and, take some photographs for you.
cupcake
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This is a bit of a cheek as well as a bit of a longshot
I'm trying to trace the burial of a James Moffat born 1730ish presumably in the Annan area and his wife Katharine Dalgleish baptised Annan 1st april 1733
Katharines father is probably George Dalgleish and his wife might be Jean Irving
James and Katharine had the following children
John Moffat 1763 - ?
Elizabeth Moffat 1765 - ?
Mary Moffat 1767 - ?
Agnes Moffat 1769 - before 1851
William Moffat 1772 - 1839
If you are in the Annan graveyard and see any stones that match with these people I'd be very grateful
best wishes
Tkgafs
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Hi Tkgafs,
Not a problem as we are doing this to help each other in our resarchers. However, I haven't been able to find where James Moffat and Catherine Dalgleish are buried or, their death details.All I know about them is, they were married abt.1759.
James and Catherine are my GGGG Grandparents.
Their son William b.abt. 1772 is my GGG Grandfather. He married a Christian/Christina Fraser. They had two sons I know of - James Moffat born abt. 1798 Joseph Moffat b. 1802 was my GG Grandfather. Joseph and the family moved to Penninghame, Newton Stewart.
I haven't been able to find my GGG Grandparents death or burial place, either. Do you have any info on William and Christina/Christian Moffat?
I have posted on the Annan board for info on Wiliam's son ( James Moffat Shoemaker)
cupcake
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Snap
James and Katharine [many different spellings of her name] are also my gggg grandparents
I am descended from Agnes Moffat who married a William Kennedy , if you PM me your email address I can send you a copy of a letter dated 11/09/1839 from William Kennedy to his daughter Mary which mentions that her "Uncle William Moffat has died about a fortnight ago, but they got no word about it".
William Kennedy was a schoolmaster in Ecclefechan, and Agnes might be buried in Hoddam 06 May 1847, but this may be another Agnes Moffat whose maiden name was Agnes Rae.
Agnes was alive and living in Middlebie in 1841 census, but I think William Kennedy was dead by then although I can find no record of it.
Tkgafs
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Snap indeed. Nice to hear about other Moffat's.
I shall have a look at the Hoddom Parish Memorial Inscriptions, for William Kennedy and Agnes Moffat (nee Rae), soon. They include Hoddom & Ecclefechan.
Will PM you with my e-mail address.
cupcake
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Hi tkgafs,
Have just looked through the Hoddom MI's which include Ecclefechan.
The Agnes you thought might be buried in Hoddam 06 May 1847 was married to a George Rae. There are eight Kennedy's buried - two of them have Post 1855 inscriptions. No William Kennedy and Agnes Moffat.
There are 14 Moffat's - 6 with Post 1855 inscriptions. Might be worth a visit, once the Tennis is finished.
However, there are 3 Dalglieshe's buried, one in Hoddam and 2 in Ecclefechan. This maybe a possible for Catherine's parents:
WEST SECTION Eccclefechan.
Here lyes John Dalgliesh in Mainside and Janet Henderson his spouse who died 2nd March 1763 aged 59 years, she died 18th of said month, aged 55 years.
cupcake
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Cupcake,
thanks for the update, I rather thought that the Agnes Moffat buried there would indeed turn out to be the wrong one, one well at least its an elimination not more doubt.
Tkgafs
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Tkgafs,
The reason I thought the John and Janet might be possible parents for Catherine Dalgliesh is, they had a John and a Janet. Also, their death year 1763 would be about right.
Even if we got James Moffat & Catherine Dalgliesh's marriage details, it wouldn't give their parents, way back in 1759.
cupcake
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Cupcake
I think Catharine's father is George for the following reasons, but happy to be proved wrong !!
there is a Kathrina Dalgleish baptised 1st April 1733 in Annan father is George Dalgleish
Try the following search https://familysearch.org/search/records/index#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3AKatharine~%20%2Bsurname%3ADalgleish~&birth_place2=8%2CScotland%2CDumfriesshire&birth_year0=1700
All Catharine and James children list their mother as Katharine or similar with the exception of William when it is spelt Catherine.
Try the following search on Familysearh.org
https://familysearch.org/search/records/index#count=20&query=%2Bfather_givenname%3Ajames~%20%2Bfather_surname%3AMoffat~%20%2Bmother_givenname%3AKatharine~%20%2Bmother_surname%3ADalgleish~
As you will see there is a Catherine baptised 1735 with George as a Father in dumfries in 1735, but the letter from William Kennedy to his daughter ties Agnes Moffat as a sister to William Moffat.
also another useful search Katharine Dalgleish with a spouse of James Moffat
https://familysearch.org/search/records/index#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3AKatharine~%20%2Bsurname%3ADalgleish~%20%2Bspouse_givenname%3Ajames~%20%2Bspouse_surname%3Amoffat~
let me know what you think
Tkgafs
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Tkgafs,
I don't know what to think. I certainly can't prove you wrong, as they did have a son George, too, as well as a John.
The naming tradition went as follows:
First son after his parental Grandfather
Second son after his maternal Grandfather
Third son after his father
First daughter after her maternal Grandmother
Second daughter after her parental Grandmother
Third daughter after her Mother
I looked at the MI's for Annan, but there isn't a burial for a George Dalgliesh. If there had been, it may have helped.
So, I can't be sure - the clan have her born 1735 and the family Search b. 1733/1735
These are from the Clan Moffat site.
Catherine Dalgleish, b. 29 July 1735, Dumfries, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
1. Janet Moffat, b. 1760, Ecclefechan, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
2. John Moffat, b. 9 March 1763, Ecclefechan, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
3. Elizabeth Moffat, b. 27 August 1765, Ecclefechan, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
4. Mary Moffat, b. 5 February 1767, Ecclefechan, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
5. Mary Moffat, b. 5 October 1767
6. Agnes Moffat, b. 27 November 1769, Ecclefechan, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
7. William Moffat, b. 16 April 1772, Ecclefechan, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
8. George Moffat, b. 1775, Ecclefechan, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
9. James Moffat, b. 25 September 1778, Luce Park, Dumfriesshire, Scotland , d. 22 April 1820, Hoddom, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
This appears to be the above James Moffat, buried at Hoddam:
James Moffat in Luce Park who died 22nd. April 1820 aged 42 years and John his son who died 15th. August 1837 aged 23 years and Jannet Irving, spouse of the above James Moffat who died at Nether Albie 31st. December 1861 aged 80 years.
cupcake
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Cupcake
I think the clan moffat site is probably wrong
If you search on Scotlands people you get exact matches for
2. John Moffat, b. 9 March 1763, Ecclefechan, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
3. Elizabeth Moffat, b. 27 August 1765, Ecclefechan, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
4. Mary Moffat, b. 5 February 1767, Ecclefechan, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
6. Agnes Moffat, b. 27 November 1769, Ecclefechan, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
7. William Moffat, b. 16 April 1772, Ecclefechan, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
but they are all bapitised in Annan not Ecclefechan they all have a father of James Moffat and a mother of Katharine or similar spelling except William whose mother is Catherine
try a search on Scotlands people as follows
Surname Moffat
Forename blank
Sex Both
Date From 01 January 1756
Date To 31 December 1780
Parent Name James 2nd Parent name *ath* [to cover the various spellings of Katharine/Katherine/Kathrine/Catherine]
County Dumfries
Parish Annan
You will get six matches, you will need a credit to view the results
but you can search for each one individually setting the correct date, name and gender
These confirm the results from FamilySearch
The only George Moffat I can find is baptised 13/04/1776 in Moffat the parents seem to be Thomas Moffat, Hellen Johnston
the only James Moffat is baptised 8/2/1776 in Tynron parents seem to be Alexander Moffat, Jean Maxwell
There is a Jannet Moffat baptised 21 Apr 1771 in Dumfries with a parent of James Moffat the mother is not listed
there is indeed a Catherine Dalgleish baptised 29 Jul 1735 in Dumfries with a Father of George
but there is also a Kathrina Dalgleish baptised 01 Apr 1733 in Annan with a Father of George and her name seems to fit as the mother in all the birth records except William where it is Catherine, all the births are also baptised in Annan, where Kathrina herself is baptised.
A Catharine Dalgleish marries a William Laidley in Sanquhar,Dumfries,Scotland in 1767
I can't find a record for a Mary Moffat dying in scotland between 1767 and 1780 on scotlands people
But Family search have her being baptised twice !! on the two dates 5/2/1767 and 5/10/1767 as does ScotlandsPeople, the 2nd one may well be the burial record which has been put in the wrong place in the OPR, but I havent seen the book to know
Look forward to hearing from you
Tkgafs
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Hi again,
The reason I put the Clan Moffat on my last post was to show you the birth date they have for Catherine. I agree, the clan Moffat maybe wrong.
William was born in Annan and not Ecclefechan, obviously I hadn't checked with his brothers and sisters, as I was just concentrating on William when I first started my search. I have written down somewhere where William was born in Annan, just can't put hands on it at the moment.
Yes, if it’s on Scotlands People, it is correct. Wonder why they were Christened in Annan when they were apparently born in Ecclefechan. There is a church there.
cupcake
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Cupcake,
it is not unknown for children to baptised in the home church of the mother, which would be Annan if you accept that Katharine is the mother.
But other than the clan moffat website saying so is there any evidence they were born in Ecclefechan ?
We really need to have a look at the actual OPRs to see if they give any more detail than the actual names.
Tkgafs
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HI Cupcake,
Thanks for the offer of look-ups.
I have families living in or near Annan about the turn of the 1790 - 1830 ish.
Robert Brown born 1790 ? parents Thomas and Jean - not sure though Born in Applegarth
Also David and Mary Johnstone with son George and ?? John . . I don't know others - I don't know if Annan covers Dryfesdale does it??
Hope my geography isn't too far off the mark.
Wiggy
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tkgafs,
I don't whether there is evidence they were born in Ecclefechan. Found the paper I had written on, saying William was born at Close Head, Annan. Can't think where I got this from. The only other thing I know about William Moffat, he was a Blacksmith in Annan and, on his son James's death entry proves this.
As I said, I have not found William and Christian's burial place- there are no death records for Annan before 1855. Also tried the layers department but, there records don't start till 1872.
The OPR's on Micro-fische in the library, gives the same information as Scotlands People in Edinburgh.
So, perhaps we will not know for sure about the Ecclefechan connection.
cupcake
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Hi WiggyHobbes,
First of all, my geography isn't too good. Perhaps another Rootschatter will correct me with this.
I believe Applegarth and Dryfesdale are nearer Lockerbie than Annan. I only have the early censuses for Annan. However, I shall have a look at the Applegarth and Dryfesdale census's for you, the next time I am at the library.
Did find this one in Annan, but perhaps no connection.
S BRYDEKIRK 1811 Census
Robert Brown,spouse, 2 drs. maid
cupcake
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Thanks Cupcake - but our Robert Brown was married to Janet Eskdale/Easdale in Dalry, Ayrshire in 1814. but we think he was born to Thomas and Jean and baptised in Applegarth and Sibaldie, 21 Sept 1790. :)
Thanks for looking and for the offer of a library look!
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Hi Wiggy,
Just realised the majority of census's didn't start till 1841.
However, the birth/marriages OPR's on microfiche at the library, may give us some information.
Thanks for the additional information.
cupcake
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Thanks ever so!! :)
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Hi Wiggy,
Just to let you know - Dryfesdale is in Lockerbie and Applegarth is a Parish on it's own, above Dryfesdale.
Knowing where your families were between 1790 -1830, could be a tad difficult. The Census's didn't start till 1841. It does appear Annan is the only one with earlier census's.
This is the information I got from the library, today.
Birth OPR's on mocrofishe:
BROWN Robert - Thomas Brown/ Jean Johnston ch. 21 Sept. 1790 - Applegarth
BROWN Agnes - Thomas Brown/ Jean Johnston ch. 15 Jan 1793 - Applegarth
BROWN Sibella - Thomas Brown/ Jean Johnston ch. 23 Jun 1795 - Applegarth
BROWN Mary - Thomas Brown/ Jean Johnston ch. 01 Sept 1803 - Applegarth
[note the above Johnston spelt without an 'e']
Marriage
Robert BROWN married Janet Easdale - 30 April 1814 - Dalry, Ayrshire [ note Easdale]
It is very possible Robert and Janet lived in Ayrshire after they married.
No luck with David and Mary Johnstone with son George or John. If you have any other info on them, I'll look again.
Hope tis helps.
cupcake
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Thank you very much - all grist to the mill - confirms what I'd thought about that mob!
Entertaining grandchildren so will put more info re Johnstones later
Wiggy :)
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Hello again,
Have you ever been to the UK and visited Annan. The reason I ask this, if you haven't, I could go to the churchyard and see if there are headstones and, take some photographs for you.
cupcake
Hi,
Thank you for your kind offer.
I would like a picture of the Headstone of Mary Bell and John Lindsay who are buried in the Annan Church yard if that is possible and if it exists still and is readable.
No hurry but if you are out and enjoying some love ly weather that would be nisce.
Thank You
Chris the Kiwi in New Zealand
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Hi,
Have been to the church and cemetery. I have visited many cemeteries during my researches but, this was my time to the Annan one. Was a pleasant experience. The churchyard isn't too big and the majority of the headstones are still legible. If there is a church, I always go inside to have a look. I liked this one.
If you could PM with your e-mail, I will send them to you. Or if you prefer, I'll just put them on here.
cupcake
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Thanks so much for the pictures of the headstone.
I also had a look at the church using Google Earth and Streetview
They will no be part of our family history for times to come.
Cheers
Christopher Leonard Patterson
ps I also had a look at the church using Google Earth and Streetview which brought the Town alive for me too.
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You are most welcome. Beleive it or not, I enjoy searching for headstones and, it's so rewarding when I find the ones I am looking for :).
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hello any chance for a look up for a ellen ross or clark born annan 1856 thanks.
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The early Annan Census'S 1801 - 1811 - 1821 would be too early. The Ellen Ross or Clark you mention, wasn't born till 1856.
cupcake
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Hi,
Have been to the church and cemetery. I have visited many cemeteries during my researches but, this was my time to the Annan one. Was a pleasant experience. The churchyard isn't too big and the majority of the headstones are still legible. If there is a church, I always go inside to have a look. I liked this one.
If you could PM with your e-mail, I will send them to you. Or if you prefer, I'll just put them on here.
cupcake
Hello to both cupcake and Floyd 11 - I am descended from John Lindsay and Mary Bell through their son Laurence Benson Lindsay. I would love to get a copy of the same headstone photo and am going to start researching further into the Lindsay line. Please let me know if either of you check back in and would be willing to send it and/or share more Lindsay information.
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Hello jtidema,
Thank you for your post regarding the headstone photograph taken at Annan Churchyard.
Can certainly pass this on to you if you wish as I still have it. Regarding any Lindsay information, you will need to contact Floyd 11. I just searched the cemetery and found the headstone for Floyd 11.
Regards,
cupcake
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Thanks!
Even after reading the help screens, I am not sure how to send you a PM with my email address... It says that I can do that in your profile, but I'm not seeing anywhere to do that.
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Got email and replying coooool.
Thanks alot
Cheers
Chris the Kiwi
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Hi jtidema,
Have looked through the Annan Old Churchyard Memorial Inscriptions for Laurence Benson Lindsay but there appears to be no other Lindsay family, just John Mary and two sons.
They may have been buried there and no headstone did they move from Annan or did they go Australia where Laurence's brothers died.
I see you have managed to get in touch with Floyd 11, hopefully he can help you with the information you require :).
Good luck with your search ( I would like to know if you find Laurece Benson Lindsay and his wife)
Regards,
cupcake
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Hi jtidema,
Sent you an e-mail with photograph of Annan church. The e-mail was returned, hope all is well.
Have sent it again to see if it goes this time.
cupcake :)
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Hi Is the offer to look up the 1801/1811/1821 Annan census still available on this thread?. If so I am interested in who was living on Belridden Farm (near Ruthwell). David Murray was living there in the 1750s and I'm hoping some of his descendents were there early 1800s. Thanks Janine
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jma09,
I think Ruthwell is nearer Dumfries than Annan. Looked on Google and there doesn't appear to be a Belridden Farm there today. There is a Ruthwell Farm, though.
However I did look up the early Annan census for 1801 1811 1821 and there was a David Murray - Jean Irving living at BURGH SOUTH SIDE in the 1801 census.
Sorry I wasn't able to help you with this.
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jma09,
Since my last post, I have discovered Belridden Farm still exists today. Don't know why Google didn't show it. The farm is next to Ruthwell Church. Do you know if he is buried there and do you have photographs of the farm?
I was wrong to say Ruthwell is nearer Dumfries. Ruthwell is about 7 miles from Annan & 10 from Dumfries.
So, I think I need to look at the Dumfries census for a Murray but, it doesn't start till 1841. I'll certainly have a look for you.
cupcake
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Have looked at the 1841/1851 census and there are no Murray's at Belridden.
However there were Murray's at Ruthwell (farmer) but perhaps no connection:
1841 Census
Address Kirkbeck
MURRAY John 50 Farmer
MURRAY Isabella 40
MURRAY John 9
MURRAY Margaret 15
MURRAY Janet 14
MURRAY Eliza 12
PATERSON Thomas 18 Agricultural Labourer
1851Census
Name: MURRAY , John
Address: Kirkbeck(846)
Parish: Ruthwell
Relationship: head of household
Marital Status: married
Occupation: FARMER of 68 acres employing 4 labourers
Age: 62
Born: born Ruthwell Dms
Household No: 4/1
Both same families
cupcake
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jma09
Briefly, the John MURRAY in my last post was b. around 1788 died.1873 aged 85 years.
Just back from the library and went through the 1851 census again, and came accross this:
1851 Census
Jackson Adam
Address: Belridding Parish: Ruthwell
Relationship: Head of Household
Marital Status: married
Occupation: FARMER of 110 acres employing 7 labourers
Age: 55
Born: Annan
Still doesn't answer you question, whether there were some of David's descendents there in the early 1800's as there is no way of knowing how long this chap was at Belridding.
cupcake
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I have just discovered your thread and wonder if you are still doing look ups. I am trying to find information on James Gass, a joiner, from Annan, who married Elizabeth Steel in 1807. I am hoping to find the names of their children.
Would also appreciate any info on James's father George Gass , a flesher, who married Margaret Weild.
Thanks
SGJ
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Hi sgj,
Have had a look at the Early Annan census's for 1801 1810 1821. There are lots of GASS's in Annan but, only the following two families could be yours.
1811 census
Queensberry Arms :
James GASS jnr. & Spouse; John; George (manf)
1821 census - might be your James, but no mention of joiner.
BUTTS STREET
James GASS, Spouse , 4 sons 1 daughter
Didn't find a George GASS - flesher. Also had a look at the MI's for Gass in the Annan cemeteries, but to no avail. Perhaps they moved away from Annan.
The next time I am at the library I'll have a look at the birth microfishe to see if I can find any children to James and Elizabeth.
cupcake
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Hi Cupcake
Thanks for the information. James Gass is buried at Dornock, so is his father.
Regards
SGJ
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Hi sgj,
Thanks for the information on James GASS burial place. Haven't found anything on James's father, George.
On my last post I mentioned a James GASS on the 1821 Annan census, with spouse and 3 sons and 1 daughter. Obviously, I can't be sure it's your James but, it is possible as that was the only James Gass for 1821. Also, they were married in 1807 and quite possibly had 4 children in the 14 years.
However, I was at the library today and went through the IGI on microfiche and there were no births for James & Elizabeth. As you will probably know, in Scotland, it was not compulsory to register a birth before 1855.
Would imagine any children born before 1841 would probably have married and, may have left the area or, some may have died.
The 1841 census has the following:
James Gass
age 55
Parish - Annan
Address - Carlyle Place
Occ. Joiner
Household members
James Gass 55
Elizabeth Gass 45
Nathanael Gass 13
Robert Gass 10
Agness Gass 3 (granddaughter)
1851 Census
Agness - granddaughter of James Gass 13 born Annan
James Gass head of household - married 69 joiner Master born Annan
Elizabeth Gass wife of James Gass - married 63 born Kirkcolm, Wigtownshire
1861 Census:
James Gass Age 79
Parish - Annan
Address - Downies Wynd
Occ. Retired joiner
Elizabeth Gass Age 73
Thomas H Pendlebury Boarder
Mary Burns Boarder
1870 12/2 4F
This information is from Dumfries Standard:
On the 3rd inst. at Downies Wynd, Annan, Elizabeth STEEL wife of Mr James GASS, retired joiner aged 84 years.
James was still alive then and must have been in his 90th year. That was a good age, back then.
Hope this has helped. Only wish I could have found the other children. Would be interesting to know if you find anything on them.
regards,
cupcake
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Hi sgj,
This is just a thought :-\ as Nathaniel is not a common name.
Found this in the Annan Old Parish Graveyard MI's and wondered if there was any connection with James's parents George Gass & Margaret Wield. Thought perhaps William Wield maybe Margaret's brother. Also the name Nathaniel and Robert are mentioned
In memory of Christopher Wield son of William Wield baker, Annan who died 4th July 1818 aged 14 days and Robert Wield his son who died 20th January 1822 aged 5 years and 6 months. Also Margaret Carlyle Wield his daughter who died 11th April 1822 aged 2 years and ten months. Christopher Wield his son who died 29th April 1822 aged 6 months. Also Margaret C. Wield his daughter who died 28th March 1831 aged 2 years 9 months and Nathaniel Wield his son who died 20th September 1851 aged 42 yrs. Also Nathaniel Wield his grandson who died 17th December 1846 aged 14 days and the above William Wield who died 2nd February 1856 aged 75 yrs. Also his wife Jean Gass his wife who died 11th February 1859 aged 76 yrs. Stone flaked at top.
cupcake
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Hi Cupcake
Thank you for all the info you have found. My gg grandfather was George Gass, he moved down to Manchester and married there in 1845. His father was James Gass, Joiner. I was hoping that we might find a birth date or something for George. Would there be a baptismal certificate anywhere. Margaret Neilson was a witness at George's marriage, her maiden name was Gass, and her father was James Gass, Joiner, so she must have been a sister. She appears in the 1871 census, living with her father in Annan.
Was Annan a very small town back in 1800? It is amazing how often the names Gass, Irving, Steel, Weild seem to crop up in different families.
Regards
SGJ
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You're welcome.
It does seem strange that I can't find any of their birth details.
Just checked on Scotlands People for George Gass birth/certificate. There is only one George Gass birth between 1st January 1810 - 31 December 1825 but the father wasn't James. If it's not on Scotlands People, then it is very likely, his birth wasn't registered.
Does his marriage certificate not give his age, which might help. The English certificates don't normally give as much info as the Scottish, but I would have thought his age would be on it.
Not too sure about the size of Annan in the 1800 but, I believe it was a thriving town back then. My GGGG Grandfather was a blacksmith in Annan in the early 1800's.
cupcake
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Hi sgj,
Have been back onto "Scotlands People" and searched for all Gass births, from 1807 up to 1830.There are none for James and Elizabeth.
If they are not on SP the births were not registered.
I wonder if the children were born in England?
cupcake
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Hi Cupcake
On George's marriage certificate his age is just shown as "full". On the 1861 census George's age is shown as 49, but I think that is probably wrong, and his country of birth is shown as Scotland. Unfortunately I have not been able to find him on the either 1841 or 1851 censuses. I think George Gass was born in 1821.
I think you are probably right that James and Elizabeth did not register their children's births.
Thanks for all your help,
Regards
SGJ
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Hi SGJ,
As far as I am aware, "FULL" means he was of age.
Can I ask where you saw the 1861 census for George. I have only seen the 1841 with Nathanael Gass 13 and Robert Gass 10. 1851 Census and the 1861 census with just James & Elizabeth. I got these from Ancestry.com at the library.
If his age was correct, he would have been born 1812 and would have been 33 years when married in 1845. Meaning, he married late in life.
However, I think you may be right in thinking he was born in 1821, he would have 24 years when he married, which would make more sense. They wouldn't have put "FULL" for his age, if was 33.
It is a mystery as to where the children are. You can occasionally, not find one or two births but, I can't find any.
Do you have George's death entry, this would give his age.
Please let me know if anything turns up and I'll continue to look and will pass on any information I find.
cupcake
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Hi Cupcake
I found the information on Ancestry.com. On the 1861 census George Gass is in Birkenhead, lodging with a family called Paterson, Margaret Paterson is the head of the family, and she is from Scotland. George is a widower and his two sons are with him.
George remarried in April 1861 and the family moved to South Africa, arriving in January 1863. His age on the manifest is 42, that is why I think he was probably born in 1821. Unfortunately I don't know when he died. I have however found a marriage certificate for his second wife, she is a widow remarries in 1869, which means that George Gass must have died sometime before this.
Regards
SGJ
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Hi sgj,
Thanks for the information.
Yes, I think you are right with George born in 1821 the dates certainly fit in. It is only a guess, George probably died around 1867. Widows/widowers usually remarried within 2 years. Either way, George was a young man when he died. I don't know when James, his father died, but he was in 90's.
I popped into the library this afternoon and managed to see the 1871 census with James Gass 89 and his daughter Margaret Neilson 35 and housekeeper. Margaret must have been born abt.1836.
You mentioned a Margaret Neilson was a witness at George's marriage ( I was unable to view the marriage details, due to technical problems with Ancestry at the library) However, I could be wrong, but George's sister would only have been 9 years old in 1845.
Please let me know how you get on. I enjoy doing searchers, even better when I manage to get results.
Regards,
cupcake
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Hi SGJ,
Have you visited the Dornock cemetery? If not, I would go and take a photograph of your GGG Grandfather's burial place, if there is a headstone.
cupcake
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Hi Cupcake
I have been to Dornock Churchyard, just a couple of week's ago when we were up in the Lake District. I found James's headstone, it had fallen over and had cracked in half but the incription was still very clear. It had the following inscription: In memory of David son of James Gass Joiner in Annan who died 18th Dec 1810 aged 2 years and JANE his daughter who died 3rd Jan 1820 aged 7 years. Also ELIZABETH STEEL his wife who died 3rd Feb 1870 aged 84 years. And the above James Gass who died 12th of June 1873 aged 92 years. As you say he was a good age.
There were lots of other Gasses buried in the same area, I did find a George Gass but the engraving was so faint I couldn't read it. It was also a very cold, windy day and my husband was getting a little bored traipsing round the graveyard so we didn't stay too long. Pity.
I wondered why James was buried in Dornock and not Annan where he had lived most of his life. I suppose his family were originally from Dornock.
Regarding Margaret Neilson. There is a marriage cert for her and James Neilson, dated 15 May 1843 in St Marylebone, Middlesex. Both James Neilson and Margaret are witnesses at George's marriage in 1845. I found Margaret again in the 1861 census, she is a widow, aged 43 and working at a Lunatic Asylum. 1871 she is with her father in Annan, and in 1881 she is aged 65 and working as a Cook in Lancashire. I can only think that on the 1871 census her age is wrong and that it should be 55 and not 35. That would make more sense. If she was born in 1836 she would have been on the 1841 census with her family in Annan. I haven't found a death certificate for her.
I have found the name of another child of James Gass and Elizabeth Steel. Another daughter, Mary Gass, she was the informant on Elizabeth's death notice. I know nothing about her.
REgards
SGJ
Regards
SGJ
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Hi SGJ,
I have been to many churchyards doing family researches but, I have never been to the Dornock Churchyard. That's good you managed to visit it, sometimes headstones can give you valuable information. Yes, the weather has been really bad here and hasn't improved, places round about have had snow.
I love the Lake District, again, good weather makes all the difference. My father was born Kirby Lonsdale in the Lake District.
Thank you for the inscription on the headstone. You never know, I may find some information on the children. I'll go to the cemetery, soon and see what I can find. Perhaps we will get some sunshine one of these days.
Would imagine the family did came from Dornock. Wonder if George was a flesher there, or more likely Annan.
Thanks for the added information on Margaret Neilson. I agree with you, the age on the 1871 census was wrong and, 55 does make more sense and make her born abt. 1816. Mistakes were often made in census and other records.
The daughter Mary Gass may have been living in or near Annan, when Elizabeth died in 1870.
I will study all the information and, if I come up with anything, will pass it on.
Regards,
cupcake
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Hi SGJ,
I hope you don't mind, but I put a post on RC for MI's in Dornock Cemetery regarding James and his father George. I did this before you sent information on James and family, buried there.
However, just received this prompt reply from Rootschatter Charlotte21
From Dornock MI's entry 207:-
" Here lies George Gass in Birkbank who died May 9th 1757 aged 38 years.
Also Jean McLean his spouse who died October 23rd 1781 aged 52 years.
Also John Gass their son who died at Annan 10th April 1816 aged 69.
(on reverse of stone)
George Gass who died at Annan 16th June 1825 aged 75
and Margaret Weild his wife who died at Annan (no date or age shown on stone)
Also Jannet this daughter and wife of William Graham, Floshend, who died at Annan 21st January 1862 aged 81."
cupcake
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hi Cupcake
What does MIs mean.
Thank your for the information on the gravestone. Does it mean that the George Gass in Birkbank and the George Gass on the reverse of the headstone are related. Would John Gass be George Gass's father?
SGJ
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Hi SGJ,
MI's stands for Memorial Inscriptions.
You're welcome. Yes, I think they could be related.
Have tried to work it out, going by death dates and ages.
George Gass - Birkbank b. abt. 1719 d.1757
John his son b. abt. 1747 d. 1816
George (James's father) b. abt. 1750 d. 1825
Just looking at the dates I think John and George (James's father) were brothers. George from Birkbank was their father.
cupcake
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Hello Cupcake,
I am looking for the death record of a Richard Irving of Annan. Born about 1791 and died sometime between 1823 and 1841. I have located his marriage record in Annan (1820) and the birth records for his two sons - (1821 and 1823). He may have been a mariner or a shipbuilder, as his sons had connections to the sea. In the 1841 census, his wife appears with their two sons and two sons from her first marriage, but I cannot locate him in the 1841 census.
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Hello Donnalynn,
I am afraid Annan do not have death records before 1855. This I know, as I won't be able to find my GGG Grandparents deaths or burial places.
However, I have looked at the Annandale People in Carlisle Newspapers ( Marriage and Death Intimations 1812-1858) and found two deaths which, may or may not be connected to your research:
734
D 26 June 1835 - Annan - Richard IRVING herring merchant. (The Carlisle Patriot)
751
D 1835 - Annan - Richard IRVING aged 53, merchant. ( The Carlisle Journal)
There is also a marriage:
M 27 Dec 1833 - Annan - Richard IRVING gardener to Jane LACKIE eldest daughter of David Lackie, watchmaker of Annan. ( The Carlisle Patriot & Journal)
cupcake
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Thank you! and thanks for the time you spend in heing others find their roots!
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Hello all. I've just stumbled across rootschat and the first thread I found was about Annan, fantastic!
I am directly descended from the Nicholson family that had a shipbuilding company in Annan in the 19th century but in reading this thread I noted lots of references to "Irving", also a name in my tree.
Jean Irving Forrest (c. 11.1. 1786) was daughter of John Forest. His mother was Jean Irving (c. 26.5.1723) daughter of William Irving and Mary Ferguson (m about 1718).
Perhaps this will be of help to someone.
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Hello again, Cupcake.
May I take you up on the offer to look at the early Annan censuses? I am fairly certain the death info you gave me on Richard Irving (d. 1835) is for "my" Richard.
Now I am on to looking for his parents. Since Richard married on 22 Sep 1820, I would expect to find him with his wife Jane/Jean/Jannet in the 1821 census. (There should also be two sons from a previous marriage to Mr. Lawson, and possibly a baby boy, Robert, born 22 Mar 1821).
According to Scottish naming patterns, I think his father may have been Robert...I am guessing that Richard was born about 1791, but that is only a guess!
If you could have a look at the early Annan censuses and let me know if there is anything there, I'd really appreciate it. And perhaps next time you are at the Annan cemetery, you could see if Richard Irving is buried there.
I can't thank you enough for all you do!
Donnalynn
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Hello Donnalynn,
Has taken me a while to search as there are so many Irvings in Annan (75 in the 1801 census and 61 in the 1801 census.)
Looked at the 1801 for a Robert IRVING with a Richard. Found one but doesn't say whether he is a son or not:
1801 Annan Census BURGH SOUTH SIDE
Robert Irving, Jean Irving, Richard Irving, Elizabeth Bell, Agnes Gass (ag 2)
1821 Annan Census HALLMEADOW
Richard, Mrs Irving, William, John, David , Robert Lawson, Maid, (ag 2)
If that is the family in the 1821 Census - could Richard's father be a William ?
Looked up both the Annan (Town Hall) Old Burial Ground Memorial Inscriptions and the Annan Old Parish Church graveyard Memorial Inscriptions - but there aren't any Richard Irving burials.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
cupcake
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You mention there should also be two sons from a previous marriage to Mr Lawson, and possibly a baby boy, Robert, born 22 Mar 1821).
I looked up Richard's marriage on Scotland's People for 22 Sept 1820 - he married a Jenet Lawson - I would assume Lawson was her maiden name :-\
cupcake
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Thanks, Cupcake...
Actually, Lawson was her married name. On her marriage record to John Lawson, Jenet's name is recorded as Faulder. This tripped me up for a bit, but I have managed to find both marriage records and the birth records of four sons - two from each marriage.
Thanks for the early census info. Is there someplace I could purchase the transcripts?
Donnalynn
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Was the 1821 Annan Census the family?
I have no idea whether you can purchase the transcripts.
Either Richard had no headstone or,perhaps they moved away from Annan.
cupcake
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Just out of curiosity, I looked up the name Faulder and found just the one in the 1811 census and just the one in the 1821 census.
1811 census WINDMILL
Robt, Faulder S; & spo; William; Mary; Jos. Farish, Sam Irving, S (Not sure what the capital S means - Sailor?)
1821 census HALLMEADOW
Tho. Faulder, spouse 40, Joseph,John, Robert, daughter
cupcake
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Thank you for the offer to look up certain names. I am currently searching for the names Ker in Annan.
I have a relative James Ker born in Annan in about 1811 and he married an Elizabeth, (Betsey) Pool, from Teweksbury.
I can find no references anywhere to their marriage. I believe James was the son of William Ker and Nansy Holliday. I have a reference in James' NZ obituary to The Howes, Annan. Are you able, or is anyone here able, to shed any further light on this person.
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I have searched for their marriage, no joy, even tried Scotlands People in case they were married Scotland and also Family search. Could they have immigrated?
If I come across anything I'll let you know.
cupcake
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Hi Cupcake, I'm hoping you could do a look-up for me:
I have a Margaret Henderson, born around 1824. She had always named Annan as her birth place in censuses and James Henderson, a school master, as her father but I've not found a baptism for her or any census with a James Henderson, school master.
I'm not sure if there's occupations included, but if you could check for an adult James Henderson in the 1821 census for me please?
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I have checked the Early Annan 1821 census but no luck. Have even checked on Scotlands People for a baptisim/birth for Margaret with father James between 1823 /1826 none for Annan.
I do know there are no BMD's for Annan before 1855.
If I find anything I shall let you know.
cupcake
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I have checked the Early Annan 1821 census but no luck. Have even checked on Scotlands People for a baptisim/birth for Margaret with father James between 1823 /1826 none for Annan.
I do know there are no BMD's for Annan before 1855.
If I find anything I shall let you know.
cupcake
Thanks for having a look Cupcake. I've always suspected the father's name and occupation were a fib, as she couldn't write which must be strange for a school master's daughter. Also haven't found any trace of a school master James Henderson anywhere. Thanks for your time anyway :)
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I have checked the Early Annan 1821 census but no luck. Have even checked on Scotlands People for a baptisim/birth for Margaret with father James between 1823 /1826 none for Annan.
I do know there are no BMD's for Annan before 1855.
If I find anything I shall let you know.
cupcake
Thanks for having a look Cupcake. I've always suspected the father's name and occupation were a fib, as she couldn't write which must be strange for a school master's daughter. Also haven't found any trace of a school master James Henderson anywhere. Thanks for your time anyway :)
You're welcome. I know how frustrating it can be trying to find someone with very little information, especially if it isn't correct.
cupcake
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Hi cupcake
Are the early census available to buy and if yes where and how much
Thanks
Karen
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I have had the census for a while now. I purchased it from "Family History Centre" Dumfries. Can't remember how much it cost.
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Hi cupcake
Would you be able to look up a couple of people for me please
Matthew Adamson he was a weaver born about 1776 married to Jean Hewit with daughter Janet born 1817 in Annan
Francis Heughan married to Ann Clerk with son John born 1811 in Annan
Thankyou
Karen
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Found these on the Early Annan Census.
1811 census Creca
Matth ADAMSON, wr, Spouse, Jean, John, William ( wr could stand for weaver)
1821 census Creca
Matt ADAMSON spo, 7m, 2 fem
Creca is about 4 miles from Annan
No joy with Francis HEUGHAN ( even tried other spelling, Houghan)
cupcake
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Thankyou Cupcake
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Hi cupcake
Could you please do another lookup for me please...looking for
John Hewit married to Jenet Clark with daughter Jean
Thankyou
Karen
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Early Annan Census.
1801 Craca (Creca)
John Hewit Lab; Janet Clark; James Hewit; William Hewit; John Hewit; Richard Hewit; Jean Hewit (ag.2) ag-Agriculture?
cupcake
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Thanks cupcake....after Jean it says ag 2....is that age or as I think you are suggesting ag lab.
Am hoping that this is my Jean.....do you know if there were any more families in Annan with the name Hewit
Do you live in Annan?
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I assume it is ag.lab and there are 2 of them. There are other Hewit/Hewitt's. I'll look again.
No, I don't live in Annan.
cupcake
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Thanks cupcake
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1811 census
COL. DOUGLAS' HOUSE
John; John; Richd; Mary Hewit
1811 census
BROOMLANDS (might be the William from the 1801 census ??) This Hewitt spelt with 2 T's.
William Hewitt; spo; Jno; Jenet; Margt; Alexr; Betty
cupcake
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Did your Jean marry and live in Annan ?
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Thanks
Think the first ones are mine as marriage between Jean Hewit and Matthew Adamson says she is from Creca and her name is only spelt with one t......can't find death certificate for her or her husband though
They were living in Middlebie in 1841....she is on 1851 census with her son William but Matthew not there
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I think you could be right with the information you have.
The thing is, it wasn't compulsory to register BMD's before 1855 in Scotland and I know there aren't any BMD'S for Annan before 1855.
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Thanks
It's very frustrating isn't it ;D
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Yes it is. I am still looking for my GGG Grandparents death and burial place :'(.
I'll do some searching for you at the library, soon
cupcake
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That's great.....do you live locally then? I am originally from Eastriggs
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Yes, I am in Dumfries. I thought I had found Jean's death - but this Jean was married to a William Adamson and her parents surname was SCOTT. Lived at Middlebie.
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That is their son William
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Do you have the death cert?
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I think William died 1888 but you may already have this.
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Yes already have that one thanks cupcake.....bought it to confirm the parents names....already had Janet my 3 x gt grandmother but just wanted to check it was the same parents
Other trees on Ancestry have William with parents Matthew and Jean but they don't have Janet on .....so wanted to make sure I had the right one.
Wish that Scotlandspeople would do a subscription like other sites
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I went to the library thinking I would find MI's for Middlebie cemetery but there weren't any for Adamson or other cemeteries in the area.
No death for your Jean - she isn't on the 1861 census so, I assume she died between 1851 and 1861 and as her death isn't on SP she probably died before 1855.
Did get a little information on Mathhew Adamson married to Elizabeth. Shall PM you this.
cupcake
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Thank you so much cupcake
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If I find any other information, I'll let you know.
cupcake
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Hi cupcake
Could you please do another lookup for me please...looking for
John Hewit married to Jenet Clark with daughter Jean
Thankyou
Karen
Could this be your Jenet CLARK with family?
1801 Early Annan Census
TOLL BAR
Robert Clark; Jenet Clark; Lily Clark; John Adamson; John Rea;Elizabeth Walker (manf 3).
cupcake
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Hi cupcake
Would you be able to look up a couple of people for me please
Matthew Adamson he was a weaver born about 1776 married to Jean Hewit with daughter Janet born 1817 in Annan
Francis Heughan married to Ann Clerk with son John born 1811 in Annan
Thankyou
Karen
Thought you would like to check this out - the surname is spelt differently. There is a Francis - may or may not be connected to your ancestors. Also a William Adamson ?? Mathhew's father ??
1801 Early Annan Census
MILNSIDE
Robert HOUGHAN; Mary Pool; John Houghan; Willam ADAMSON; Jenet Carlile. (AG.3)
Alexr. HOUGHAN; Jean Houghan; John Houghan; Francis Houghan Jenet Houghan;Robert Houghan; Walter Houghan; Ann Houghan. (ag. 3)
cc
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Thankyou cupcake
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Did Mathhew and Jean have a son - John - found this burial in the Annan Old Parish Church Graveyard. The only Adamson there.
L4
In memory of John Adamsom, Burgh Officer in Annan, who died 12th. May 1846 53yrs. Also William his son who died August 1814 aged 10 months. Also William hid son who died in September 1815 aged 6 months. Also Thomas his son who died 19th. May 1826 aged 2 years and 10 months. And Janet his wife who died 2nd. March 1861 aged 68 years.
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They did cupcake but he was born in 1811 so the dates don't add up and he was also a weaver like his father Matthew
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I should have realised, when the others were weavers :-[.
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I appreciate your help cupcake
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Hello Everyone, So good to see the enthusiastic suggested support from you all to even new comers such as me.
The van Gass names was changed in the Cape of Good Hope (Cape Town, South Africa) from Gass. The progenitor Johan(n) Georg GASS arrived in the Cape around April 1816. He married a Jacoba Barendina Zimmerman(n), whose father was Heinrich Zimmerman(n).
When they were married she used the name de Gass, which lasted until they had children, all four then with the surname of van Gass. Their only little girl apparently died very young. Their fourth child, 3rd son, was Johan George van Gass. He is my GGgrandfather. Direct line Johan(n) Gass (who later was seen as van Gass) - Johan George van Gass, Willem Jacobus Abraham van Gass, who is my grandfather.
Thank you for your help. Ed v.
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In case this is any help to anyone reading this thread, Margaret Gass (b. 1787, Annan) married 11/11/1810 in Annan to David Wield (b. 1785, Annan). Their daughter, Margaret Wield (b. 4/2/1823, Annan) married James McCall. They had a son, William James McCall (b. 1868, Annan) who married Sarah Ann Storey at St Silas' Church, Liverpool 22/12/1895. Their daughter Annie is my great grandmother.
I am keen to hear from anyone who found this information useful... :)
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The Early Annan Census book is now available with other Annan books as an E-book on the Dumfries and Galloway Family History website at www.dgfhs.org/uk/shop-online/