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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Breconshire => Topic started by: Deirdre784 on Saturday 27 June 15 14:05 BST (UK)
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Hi, I'm looking for help with the early years of Mary Ann(e), hopefully to confirm what I have and to find her parents.
On her marriage (31 Oct 1876, Brecon register office, to Walter Robert Leigh) she was Mary Anne Thomas, aged 20, spinster, of Watton Road, Brecon, father John Thomas (deceased), coachman.
I found a baptism of a Mary Anne, daughter of John - brewer and ostler - and Maria, of Three Cocks Lane, Brecon on 16 May 1856 at St Mary's, Brecon.
I then found a birth registration in Brecknock, June quarter 1856, for a Mary Ann Thomas. I contacted Powys council who checked the registration and father was John so I've bought the certificate. This matches the baptism (though without the 'e' in Ann), John an ostler, mother Maria formerly Evans, of Three Cocks Lane.
BUT, I can't find the family in 1861 or 1871 to confirm this is the right family (though Mary Ann, aged 16, is possibly in High Street, Brecon as a domestic servant to David Evans, draper, in 1871), nor can I find a marriage for John Thomas and Maria Evans, nor baptisms for any other children.
As Mary Ann married in Brecon - I have all the info on her and her family from then on, other than a 2nd marriage for Mary Ann following the death of husband Walter Robert, which doesn't appear to exist - I assume they were from the area but any help on this would be gratefully received.
Thanks in advance,
Deirdre
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Typically, having posted this, I have now found a possible marriage, in Merthyr Tydfil, December quarter 1850.
Have emailed Merthyr Tydfil CBC to ask if John is an ostler, brewer or coachman as that is all I have to go on at the moment. Can't find them in Merthyr in 1851 though :-\
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Perhaps this is Mary Anne in 1861 - with her Grandmother?
Name:Mary A Thomas
Age:6
Estimated birth year:abt 1855
Relation:Granddaughter
Gender:Female
Where born:Breconshire, Wales
Civil Parish or Township:Brecon Castle
Town:Brecknock
County/Island:Breconshire
Country:Wales
Street address:.
Condition as to marriage:.
Education:.
Employment status:.
Occupation:.
Registration district:Brecknock
Sub-registration district:Brecknock
ED, institution, or vessel:12
Household schedule number:2
Piece:4212
Folio:41
Page Number:2
Household Members:
Name Age
Margaret Thomas 54
Mary A Thomas 6
Henry Parry 69
Lewis Morgan 57
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Thanks bertieburrell, that looks very promising :)
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John Thomas,born 1804,married,brewer and ostler is at The Sun Inn,Wheat Street,St.Mary,Brecknock in 1851,but not with Maria.
HO107/2849/420/7
It looks like he is still there in 1861,but now described as unmarried and a brewer(though one major site has it as crewer(sic))
RG09/4212/110/30
There is a death in 1856 for a Maria Thomas in Merthyr Tydfil district - I wonder if this is a possible explanation.
Regards
Roger
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Thanks Roger, don't know how i missed that 1851, thought i'd looked at all the John Thomas entries in Brecknock.
I'll forward a query re the Maria death to my email to Merthyr.
Thanks again,
Deirdre
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Thanks to bertieburrell and Roger, this is looking good, though nothing confirmed yet.
Put into a timeline:
1850 - DecQ: marriage of a John Thomas and Maria Evans in Merthyr Tydfil
1851 - census: John, 47, married, born Herefordshire, servant, brewer and ostler in the Sun Inn, Wheat St, Brecon
1856 - birth and baptism of daughter Mary Ann, father John a brewer and ostler, of Three Cocks Lane, Brecon.
1856 - death of a Maria Thomas in Merthyr in SeptQ 1856
1861 - census: John, unmarried, born Brecon, servant, brewer in the Sun Inn, Wheat St, Brecon; also a Mary A Thomas, aged 6, living with her grandmother in Brecon.
1876 - marriage of Mary Ann, father John listed as deceased coachman.
While the timeline looks good, there are a few puzzles...
- John is older than I expected, presumably Maria was younger than him
- different places of birth shown for John in 1851 and 1861, and unmarried in 1861 (but surely this is the same man)
- Mary Ann's birth and baptism give an address of Three Cocks Lane - in the middle of the 2 censuses when John is in the Sun Inn, Wheat Street.
There are a number of deaths for a John Thomas in Brecon between 1861 and 1876, so I'll look for him in 1871 to narrow it down (big help to have his age ;D), for Maria on her own in 1851, and wait to hear from Merthyr Tydfil CBC re the marriage and death.
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There are these two other references that may be relevant?
http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/page/view/4347514/ART35/three%20cocks%20lane
http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/page/view/4349509/ART2/three%20cocks%20lane
I will recheck but my memory of looking at the census transcriptions,"Three Cocks Street" was listed next to Wheat Street.
Regards
Roger
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Thanks Roger,
I've just browsed the censuses and yes, Three Cocks St is listed after Wheat St in 1851 (just one entry though, strangely with 2 sisters named Thomas), and Three Cocks after Wheat St in 1861, but with a lot more entries (and several coachmen).
I thought I'd found Three Cocks Lane leading away from Brecon - around Llanddew where Mary Ann says she was born in the 1881 census - (and there's a place called Three Cocks to the north east), but I can't find it now.
Deirdre
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Wheat Street is close to the Usk Bridge(and Ship Street) in this 1887 map
http://maps.nls.uk/view/101605322
Regards
Roger
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Thanks Roger, these old maps are amazing.
Wheat St is still there now according to google maps, though I can't find Three Cocks anything....
We visited Brecon 2 years ago and saw the houses where Mary Ann and her husband were living in 1881 (Mount St) and 1891 (Struet).
Deirdre
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I've had a reply from Merthyr Tydfil CBC but unfortunately they do not have a record of either a marriage for John Thomas to Maria Evans or a Maria Thomas death. However they suggested I contact both Rhondda Cynon Taf and Caerphilly as these areas include some Merthyr registrations.
RCT have replied that they have no marriage record, and the Maria Thomas death they have is for a child, so not 'my' Maria.
Not so sure of the likelihood of these records though as both areas are further from Brecon, but will see what Caerphilly find (if anything). If no marriage is found I will contact the GRO with the reference details, and provide what I know, and see where that gets me.
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In trying to trace the "Miss Thomas" whose death,age 30,is reported in Three Cocks Lane in the 1851 article,she is reported as being "..late of Gwenidived..." I think this is Gwernyfed(possibly Avenue?) which is in Three Cocks Village(presumably your reference from before,and it is here:-
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/find/#zoom=12&lat=52.0275&lon=-3.2112&layers=38&point=0,0
I haven't identified this place or Miss Thomas yet on a census,but it seems worth a try.
Regards
Roger
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Thanks Roger, I've not had any luck yet looking for Mary Anne's possible grandmother, Margaret Thomas, and wondered if the Miss Thomas was maybe a sister of John.
PS The NLW newspapers site has been improved in the last few days too. Looks more user-friendly :)
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The Margaret Thomas/Mary Ann(e) previously mooted surely can't be correct.If John Thomas,born circa 1804 is her father,Margaret,born circa 1807 can't be her grandmother.
Regards
Roger
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Of course not :-[
When it was found it looked good as I knew nothing about the age of John at the time, and it fitted with John/Maria not being together and Maria possibly having died, but yes, I'll discount that, thanks.
Caerphilly have no record of the John Thomas / Maria Evans marriage so I'll ring the GRO and explain the situation as none of the offices covering Merthyr can find the marriage.
Deirdre