RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: KitHannay on Saturday 08 August 15 12:23 BST (UK)
-
Hi, I've made other posts on here before about my great grandfather David Hanna who was an orphan in Nazareth Lodge in Northern Ireland, but I'm gonna try and reach out to Scotland. David was born in about 1905 but no birth cert can be found for him. I next find him in the 1911 Census aged six, with his birth place being recorded as Belfast city. I've contacted the orphanage and got very little back from them only that David was found wandering in February 1908 and placed in the orphanage. His parents are not recorded yet he is labeled as 'illegitimate' and Roman Catholic.
THEN at the bottom of the page the following is written : Mother's address 3.10.18 Rose Ann Hannah 104 Richard St, Anderston, Glasgow.
I assume that on that date in 1918, his mother attempted to contact him? Does anyone have any other thoughts? I've tried searching for her and can't find her anywhere. I don't know anything more about her other than that address. I'm wondering does anyone know any Scottish newspapers or anything that I could get in touch to leave a little ad or something in it to see if anyone knows of her? I really have no idea what else I can do. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated!!!
Thanks.
-
Hi Kit,
Have you tried to find Rose Ann on the 1911 Scottish census if she's not on the Irish ???
Annie
-
Do you know if David had a different name before Rose Ann was in touch as she may have married by the time she got in touch ???
Who was David brought up with later & where ???
Annie
ADDED..........It's strange how she knew where to contact him ???
-
Well in the 1911 census he is recorded as 'David Hanna'. But then Rose's name is recorded as 'Hannah' - I don't know why they differ. I've tried to find her in the Scottish and Irish census'. There are a lot of Rose's in Ireland and as far as I can see, three in Scotland but none match with my Rose. I've searched for her death in Scotland to no avail either.
It is strange how she knew after ten years. I wonder why she tried to contact him. I just think that having an exact address should make it easier :/
-
In 1915 David was transferred to St Patrick's Industrial School and it's on that record that Rose's details are recorded. So she must have done a good bit of searching to find him after those ten years
-
Name variants are a common occurrence ::)
The mystery is.......orphaned but they knew his name ???
Maybe she got in touch out of guilt prior to moving to Glasgow but you would think they would have noted that or..........
maybe a family member or neighbour gave the orphanage details ???
It would be good to be able to find out how they knew who he was ::)
If his surname was changed to Hanna after she got in touch with the address ???................... There is a marriage for a Rose Ann marrying a Hannah on SP in 1915 Glasgow but may be a "Red Herring" ???
Annie
-
I've checked out that marriage. It's a Rose Ann Watson marrying a Robert Hannah. She's 37, him 50. It's difficult to read but her parents seem to be Robert Watson and Rose Ann Watson nee McCourt. Robert Hannah is a coal miner and Rose a farm servant.
I don't know. My David is recorded as David Hanna in 1911 and it seems that his mother didn't get in contact until 1918 so they must have known his name?
-
There's a Rose Ann Hannah marrying in Glasgow 1923 ???
Annie
-
Oh yes, that is a Rose that I've tried looking into. That was her second marriage in 1923 to a man named John O'Reilly. Her first marriage was in 1897 (when she was 17) to a William Houghton, who was a private in the 84th Royal Artillery. They had two children - William and Catherine. William was born in England and Catherine in Scotland. I find them living in England in 1901 (sans her husband who I assume is doing army stuff) but I can't find them anywhere in 1911. I next find Rose in 1923, marrying John. She notes herself as a widower although I have been unable to find a death cert for William because it seemed a very popular name.
Rose died in 1932 of cardiac failure - which is actually interesting now that I think about it because my great uncle died in his forties of cardiac failure and my grandfather (who is in his 70's) has had trouble with his heart in the past few years.
I found her birth cert (she was illegitimate!). She was born to George Hannah and Catherine Kerr on September 15th, 1878, 15 Clyde Street, Glasgow. Her parents later married and had other children. I did some research on her parents. George's parents were Arthur Hannah (1831, Down, N. Ireland - 1888, Scotland) and Rosanna. Arthur's parents were George Hannah and Rosanna McCall, who would have lived their whole lives in N. Ireland I assume. So there is that Northern Ireland connection there. Catherine Kerr's parents were John Kerr and Rose Gorman (1831, Ireland).
What do you think? I would like to know more about William Houghton - maybe Rose had an affair whilst her husband was away? They did seem to move about a bit. I just thought that perhaps if William died in and around 1918 Rose took the opportunity to try and find her son? I know that's a lot of guessing with no facts but it's an idea.
-
Sorry, Rose Ann married her first husband in 1895 when she was 17, not in 1897. Her son was born in 1899 and her daughter in 1900.
Also, on her second marriage she seems to have lied about her age, recording herself as 41 when in reality she was 45. Her new husband was 40.
-
That was her second marriage in 1923 to a man named John O'Reilly. Her first marriage was in 1897 (when she was 17) to a William Houghton, who was a private in the 84th Royal Artillery. They had two children - William and Catherine. William was born in England and Catherine in Scotland. I find them living in England in 1901 (sans her husband who I assume is doing army stuff) but I can't find them anywhere in 1911. I next find Rose in 1923, marrying John. She notes herself as a widower.
Rose died in 1932
I found her birth cert (she was illegitimate!). She was born to George Hannah and Catherine Kerr on September 15th, 1878, 15 Clyde Street, Glasgow. Her parents later married and had other children. I did some research on her parents. George's parents were Arthur Hannah (1831, Down, N. Ireland - 1888, Scotland) and Rosanna. Arthur's parents were George Hannah and Rosanna McCall, who would have lived their whole lives in N. Ireland I assume. So there is that Northern Ireland connection there. Catherine Kerr's parents were John Kerr and Rose Gorman (1831, Ireland).
What do you think? I would like to know more about William Houghton - maybe Rose had an affair whilst her husband was away? They did seem to move about a bit. I just thought that perhaps if William died in and around 1918 Rose took the opportunity to try and find her son? I know that's a lot of guessing with no facts but it's an idea.
I have those certs. on my comp & only just noticed ::)
Mmm, I think William would have had to be away for an age for her to have David...... a 3 yr old "found wandering" so maybe William died prior to 1905 but why keep the other 2 kids??? so on they grounds I would say wrong Rose Ann but that's only my own opinion until you can find out otherwise ???
When were William & Catherine born & what was their demise, if known ???
Is it possible to try & get some info. re Williams Army life as you know the Battalion ???
Annie
-
When checking soldier's wills on Scotlands people - in which section do I put '84th artillery'? Is it regiment or battalion?
I think finding a death cert for him is very important.
I literally lose all trace of William Jr and Catherine after 1901 :/
-
Hi Kit,
I seem to recall you posting about David Hanna before.
And I contributed to your last hunt ;D as did ammack.
Did you rule out the Rose A McManus who is living as a tenant at 104 Richard Street on 1915 Valuation Roles? I felt last time she was worth investigating.
Looby :)
-
Yes, I've checked her out and the only one I can find is a Mrs Rose Ann Hannah living at House 23 Marlow St, Glasgow. Is that the one you're seeing?
-
Yes, I've checked her out and the only one I can find is a Mrs Rose Ann Hannah living at House 23 Marlow St, Glasgow. Is that the one you're seeing?
No I haven't found that woman.
I am looking on Scotlands People at the 1915 Valuation Rolls -
Valuation Rolls were records of property/land, the name of property owner, names of tenants at the property and how much rent was being collected annually.
104 Richard Street would have been a tenement building.
Rose A McManus was a tenant at that address on the 1915 Roll (taken around August I believe) - most of the tenants on the page are male. That would lead me to believe that Rose was on her own (maybe with children) , single or perhaps widowed? There is nothing to indicate marital status.
Looby
-
I have just been reading this post and felt it was familiar then I did a search and yes there was a
similar post for this person earlier this year.
midlad
-
Oh, I've taken a look at your Rose. You're right, she seems to be the only woman in the building! It doesn't give any other info however. I did find a Rose A McManus living in the Anderston area in the 1901 census with her family. Her mother Mary is a widow by 1901. Interestingly, Rose was born in Ireland. She has a brother Hugh and sister Mary. She worked as a shirt machinist and in 1901 she was 29. Do you think this is the same Rose from the 1915 Valuation Roles? Her address in 1901 is 134 Stobcross Street, Anderston, Glasgow
-
When checking soldier's wills on Scotlands people - in which section do I put '84th artillery'? Is it regiment or battalion?
I think finding a death cert for him is very important.
I literally lose all trace of William Jr and Catherine after 1901 :/
Hi Looby,
Thought the name familiar ::)
Kit,
I think for Scottish deaths (if I remember, it comes up on the Index after you have paid the creds, 23p) but I can't recall the term but it won't be by Battalion or Regiment.
Annie
-
Do you think this is the same Rose from the 1915 Valuation Roles? Her address in 1901 is 134 Stobcross Street, Anderston, Glasgow
I think looking for a marriage would be good or even her mother's death as she may have been the informant if you can't find a marriage.
Would be interesting to know where the name David derived from, not what I would say to be a common Irish name :P
Annie
-
Just had a look back & don't really appreciate all our "DOUBLE TROUBLE"
PREVIOUS POSTS
Antrim
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=715832.msg5596064#msg5596064
Anderston
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=715810.msg5595216#msg5595216
Annie
-
That could be the same woman :-\ Certainly Stobcross Street and Richard Street are in the same area.
I will PM you with some details as we are not supposed to post info from 1911 Census on the site.
Looby :)
-
That'd be great looby!
-
Posted all this on the other board....
William Houghton married Rose Ann Hannah on the 31/12/1895, St Saviours, Glasgow...he was a driver in the R.A. Her parents were George and Catherine Hannah nee Kerr.
Catherine Kerr Houghton, b 1/7/1900, 8 Ferguson Street, Glasgow, Parents William Houghton, driver R.A and Rose Ann Houghton nee Hannah is in the Army Regimental Indices for 1900 father in R.A. I can't find a William Jr there.
Hope this is of some help.
Terry
ADDED - Forgot to say William was aged 22 and Rose 17 at the time of the 1895 wedding.
-
Births David McManus/MacManus
1904 – 1906 = best area Glasgow or maybe Lanark if she went out of town ???
13 Glasgow City
21 Lanark
1 Dunbarton
2 Renfrew
1 Ayr
Rest would probably be too remote
Annie
-
I'm keeping note of all this because I've run out of credits for SP and won't have money for a few days!! :( I'll check it all out then
-
Please bear in mind that the McManus family with Rose McManus could be a wild goose chase.
The Rose McManus of Stobcross Street may not be the Rose A McManus of 104 Richard Street who in turn may not be the Rose Ann Hannah of the Industrial School record.
I find it odd Kit that in 1908 David Hanna was admitted to an orphanage after being found wandering the streets and with parents unknown , but they manage to give him the same surname as a woman who contacts the Industrial School 10 years later.
Do you know what form of correspondence there was in 1918 from Rose Ann Hannah ? Was there a letter? Or is it just that David's mother's name and address is added to his notes at that time?
Looby
-
I find it odd Kit that in 1908 David Hanna was admitted to an orphanage after being found wandering the streets and with parents unknown , but they manage to give him the same surname as a woman who contacts the Industrial School 10 years later.
My very thoughts too Looby. Yes at 3 he would know his name but surname I'm not so sure?
How did they know where he was born ???
It leaves a bit of a whole in the story but I'm still surprised that a boy found wandering the streets was not in the papers to entice reuniting him with his mother ???..........not quite the same as a "Foundling" is it ???
Annie
-
Yes I would have thought that even in 1908 a boy wandering the streets parentless might have made the press with a request for a relative or anyone with any info to come forward.
Have you looked at Irish newspaper archives for around the time that David was found Kit?
Looby :)
PS. Got to go and make dinner now or my own daughter may run away and wander the streets looking to be fed ;D ;D
-
I know, the whole thing is just one big mystery. I mean, a three year old boy is found wandering about and is lifted by the police. They place him in an orphanage stating they found him wandering and without proper guardianship - yet they don't know the name of his parents. And apparently a three year old knows his own full name? Did no one attempt to reunite him with his mother seen as they did have his name. And if they did and found his living conditions inappropriate then why did they omit his parents name from his records??
And if Rose never saw her son after he was lifted then how the heck did she manage to track him down all those years later? How did she know he would even know who he himself was? Did she try to contact him by phone or letter? The orphanage/industrial school never enclosed any letter with the records they gave me and for his whole life my great grandfather always maintained that his mother never tried to find him - so was he ever told about this Rose woman?
It's all so annoying and if records were better kept then maybe I'd be closer to answers!!
-
Kit,
I would agree "some" 3 yr olds (even in this day) would know their full name (as did my own daughter & my grandson) but these things are taught & by the sound of the strange complexities here, I personally would doubt he knew his surname................proof is in the fact that you can't find a birth cert in Belfast where he was "supposedly" born.
I think I would sit down, type another letter explaining this fact & ask if there is any other info. they can add as you find it very frustrating as there seems to be info. which has been left out & info. which can't be proven...........
such as his full name, place of birth (how they knew that)?, age & where did they get the info. that Rose Ann was his mother as they have not given you those details & you would like to follow up your research to find out who you descend from. You could also ask "where" in Belfast he was born.
The only other thing is to pay a small fee to join your local FH centre & scroll through ALL THE BIRTHS for ANY DAVID'S with a yr either side as I don't think David would be a common name in Ireland but I may of course be wrong ???
Also as we have said......I think the local papers would surely have had something as Belfast is a large town covering a large area so what better way to reunite a lost child with his mother ???
Annie
-
Hi Kit and Annie too,
Had a wee search on my old friend Google for boy found by police Belfast 1908 - well :-[ it was worth a try !
And something interesting did pop up - http://www.curiousfox.com/uk/mbprof2.lasso?eid=206602&-nothing
This post is looking for info on a Terence O'Connor who, like David Hanna, was picked up from the streets of Belfast and placed in Nazareth House. He was born about 1903 and picked up in 1906 , so therefore like David was 3 years old. He is on the Irish 1911 Census aged 8 at the same establishment as David - just look further down the page.
The person who posted this query states that they cannot find Terence before 1911 Census - therefore no birth cert and intriguingly they mention that his mother or grandmother's name could be Anastasia. Makes you wonder if this boy's record is marked with a name just like David's ??
The post was made April this year Kit.
Maybe worth considering sending a message to ? You could find out if the recorded circumstances of Terence's admittance into the orphanage were similar to David's. Which might throw a bit of light on things ;D
Looby :)
-
Good find Looby.............
They knew their forenames but surname ??? can't fathom how Rose Ann has a different surname if she's the same person at the address given that you found ???
Curiousfox is a fee paying site to correspond Annual subscription £5.50.............not cheap just to email :o ???
Annie
-
Good find Looby.............
They knew their forenames but surname ??? can't fathom how Rose Ann has a different surname if she's the same person at the address given that you found ???
Curiousfox is a fee paying site to correspond Annual subscription £5.50.............not cheap just to email :o ???
Annie
Oh that's a pity :( I didn't know that about Curious Fox site (I've never used it before).
What interests me about this was the fact that both boys appear to have a similar back story and cannot be found pre 1911. Obviously it may have been fairly common at that time for 3 year olds to be wandering alone in Belfast, picked up, then placed in Nazareth House. It would be interesting to know how the name Anastasia has been linked to Thomas - a similar entry to David/ Rose Ann in the records perhaps??
Looby :)
-
Curious fox is a very useful site & I recommend that this post should be entered on it as a free member. Everyone can then view it. The annual fee is not excessive if someone wants to be a fee paying member & access all areas :) I have recently had a reply to one of my queries & met a distant relative. I have also had a reply from someone, to another query, which led me to seeing a photograph of my great grandfather for the first time. Worth every penny!
flst
-
Thanks for all your continued help guys! I stopped getting email notifications there for the last few entries :/ I checked out that curiousfox entry and have contacted that person about Terence. Hopefully he'll get back to me soon!
I've also checked up on that Rose A McManus from 150 Stobcross. She married John Kelly in 1903 and had two children - one named John who is still alive by 1911. They had another child that died. at the time of her marriage she lived at 116 Richard Street.
I don't think that she is my Rose. :( But it also means that she's not the Rose A McManus living at 104 Richard Street in 1915 because by this time she is Rose Kelly. Right? So there's still another Rose A McManus to find in 1911.
-
Update* The above Rose A McManus who was married to John Kelly married a second time to a man named John Hazelton in 1916, stating she was a widow at 31. Her address at this time is 85 Richard Street.
-
Hi Kit,
Rose A McManus married to John Kelly then John Hazleton fairly gets about Richard Street!
To be honest , it's been my experience with researching my own family and helping others on Rootschat , that sometimes families move about much more than we do nowadays- and often it's all within one street ! Exactly why, I obviously don't know but as they would all be tenants it would make sense if it was because their lease was up/ rent had been increased/ better accommodation became available.
So I think the Rose A McManus at 104/116/ 85 Richard Street is one and the same woman.
However so far we have not linked her to the name Hannah/Hanna ?
We just have the facts that her forename is Rose her middle initial is A (do we know if the A stands for Anne?) and that circa 1915 she lived at the address written on David Hanna's notes circa 1918.
Do we know this Rose A McManus's mother's maiden name? Just thinking that a family name may have been used to cover tracks :)
Splitting my post in 2. More to come.
Looby :)
-
Reading back over all the posts it occurred to me that :
Rose A McManus born Ireland is on the 1901 Census living at 134 Stobcross Street -her age is 29.
Rose A McManus widow of John Kelly marries John Hazleton in 1916 - her age 31
So in approx.15 years she has aged 2 years. Now people could be economical with the truth when it came to their ages (especially on remarriage) but that is a big difference.
RE- addresses and names.
If Rose McManus/ Kelly was widowed there is a very good chance she would have reverted to her maiden name. Therefore if John Kelly was dead by the time the 1915 Valuation Roll was taken she could have been calling herself McManus again.
It does seem vey odd though if Rose A was legally married in 1903 and was having children that she would be leaving a 3 year old boy in Belfast :-\ in 1908.
Perhaps this lady is not your Rose Ann Hannah.
Looby :)
-
My twopence worth...
I decided to check Sp for a birth for David in case the orphanage were missinformed of his place of birth or possibly they guessed where he was born. (I have not used any credits to check these records.)
Sp have 10 David Hannahs born between 1903-1907. 4 of these were in Glasgow city, and 1 of those in Glasgow city in 1905.
Sp have 6 death records for a Rose Ann Hannah between 1918 (assuming she was alive and contacted the orphanage then) and 2014. But I also added a birth date of 1880+/-10years. I'm guessing that she was between the ages of 15&25 when David was born though...
Did anyone manage to check Irish newspapers?
Kind regards,
maclennan25
-
I found a pic of the orphanage (Nazareth Lodge) c1900.
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc152/lmmcm8/img025-1.jpg
I also found a forum recalling memories from the orphanage where someone says that a child was left there in the 1930s for fear of being arrested for being a single mum. They went back a few years later after getting married and the child had been adopted.
http://www.belfastforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10967.0.html
maybe this could be a reason as to why 2 young boys have a similar story of being left in the street nearby although many years earlier...?
On a similar note (Scotland though, not Ireland). I helped track a family where the son had been placed in care in Glasgow in 1920s. After researching records, we discovered that the boy had been given up because his mother was single and she was a housekeeper for her own brother. She had become pregnant again and her brother told her she wold not be allowed to stay with him if she had more than one child. Sadly, her baby later died and although there is also a possibility she went back to collect her son, he had been 'farmed out'. A coachload of boys and girls were taken North (in this case, the North Highlands) and placed into the care of crofting families. The families/crofters were paid an allowance weekly/monthly to look after the children and were sent a clothes package annually for them and in return I guess the children helped out on the crofts.
Sorry to ramble on as I know it probably isn't relevant, but some of it may explain circumstances and the possibility the surname and mother may have been known...
-
Hey all,
I've posted on here before about my orphaned great granda David Hanna, but I've recently got the DNA results of his son (my granda). i can almost certainly confirm that David's mother was Rose Ann Hannah, born in 1873 in Glasgow. She married a William Houghton in 1895 and had two children by him - William in England in 1899 and Catherine in Scotland in 1900. William Snr was a driver in the 84th Royal Artillery. I have no service number for him though so does anyone have any idea how I can find out more about him?
I find Rose with the two kids in the 1901 Scottish census. Husband is still alive but not with her. They go completely off the map then. My great granda David was born in about 1905 and found wandering in 1908 in Belfast and placed in an orphanage. I have no idea what happened - Why Rose was in Belfast or anything. I know that she's back in Glasgow by 1918 because she contacts the orphanage and leaves her address with them. She then marries a second time in 1923 to John OReilly. I have no idea how to proceed now. How do I find her first two kids? Why were they in Ireland? When did William Snr die?
I thought maybe I should try find relatives of Rose's. So I know she has a niece called Catherine Kerr Hannah born in Glasgow in 1926 and a nephew Henry Wilson Hannah born in 1928. Does anyone know how I can find these?
-
Hi Kit
If William snr was a soldier perhaps he was posted to Ireland?
Giggsy
-
Duplicate posting. See -
Threads merged , duplicate posts removed.
Other threads -
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=715832.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=715810.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=698262.msg5415126#msg5415126
-
Confused as to how DNA has proved a link to Rose Ann when you don't appear to have contact with any of her relatives in order to make a match.
Isobel
-
I have had contact with relatives. Rose's sister Catherine has a lot of descendants who have done DNA testing and my grandad and myself have matched with them. But they are in Canada and know nothing about Rose unfortunately
-
Thanks for clarifying.
Catherine Kerr Hannah born 1926 appears to have married in 1944 (to Dreghorn). She died in Bishopbriggs in 2007 age 81 ( death recorded under both Hannah and Dreghorn on Scotlandspeople).
Isobel
-
Oh thank you so much! That's really helpful. I think she had a son called Daniel in 1948 who might still be alive somewhere
-
Is this David's birth registration? Do you know the date of birth he used?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01798/1705246.pdf
Do you have any other surnames from your DNA matches other than the HANNAH family?
Debra :)