RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: panished on Saturday 12 September 15 12:16 BST (UK)
-
I went by selston today, well i was working and the rain heavy going, i called in to pay my respects to the Gipsy Dan Boswell, he's gone manys the long year, but the strangest thing happened, i met this man tending a grave, he says its the grave of the old vicar, he died in 1978,well this man i was talking to says how he was the church warden and served with the priest of this church for several years back then, he says he would tell me the story of Dan Boswells gravestone, he told how the vicar herbot victor Simmons was such a fine man and respected by all, this man now telling me was putting flowers on his old vicars graveside, its just on the left side as you walk up towards Dan Boswells grave, its a white stone with black letters i think now, yes i think it was 78 he died, well this old church warden from those times telled how the priest , vicar was sad about Dan's grave stone, the years would be the early seventy's i think he said, maybe the middle seventies, well it was a very important grave in there church, so they had a collection from the village church people, they raised the money for the new stone by getting paper and selling it, this is and old thing from years back for i even done those things with my own brothers, you would take it to a paper factory and weigh it in , old news paper and such, well this old church warden his name Mr harper if i recall said the old grave stone the buried under the grass right next to the new grave stone, he showed me the spot, and he said the old grave stone of Dan Boswell was not facing the way it is now but if you stand in front of it , it was on the left hand side facing the church walls, most of the writing was hard to read and the had to search church records for the date, he still as old magazines of the time and history of the time they put the new stone up, he no longer goes to that church but if any of Dan Boswells relatives wants more information i think its best to search him out now, he said he thought the stone was made by copes in ridding, i think that's just down the hill another sort of small village, the people who are alive and know true history often die of, and the story then becomes mixed up, he was a real nice man and telled how the good vicar Mr Simmons did his very best for the Gipsy Dan Boswell, its just i met by the strangest of chance this very day with the old church warden, i,m sure his names Mr Harper.
I sent this letter to the Romany connections web site a few years back, but just encase no one seen it, I'll put it here as well, them old stones might have reference numbers on with info, and that warden or church helper as photos of himself digging the grave, the old stone, right under your feet he telled me, hope some one find him one day, maybe he's dead himself now, I think that was his name but old people who do go to the church would remember the old vicars helper, I don't know what was really wrote on the grave, but all you hear is what old writers wrote and a cow knocked it over, maybe all the old stone is under your feet, best respects for the Gipsy Dan Boswell , you'll rest in pease
-
Interesting post Panished.
The Rev Hubert Victor Simmons was at St Mary's, Selston, 1962 - 1976, so the new stone must have been placed then. I think it had also earlier been replaced around 1911. The original stone, kicked in half by a cow, is said to have been devoid of any inscription, but I can't see how that can be as 'Blacks Guide to Nottinghamshire', published in 1876 contains a description of it with inscription, the same one that stands today "I've lodged in many a town, I've travelled many a year, But death at length hath brought me down to my last lodgings here..."
The current stone says 'Dan Boswell Gipsy King 1737 -1827'. The parish register of the actual burial conflicts with this, according to the transcriptions made by Julie Gerring at the Nottingham Family History Society he was buried on 18th March 1827 recorded as 'Daniel Bosswell, aged seventy six', abode: ' A Tent on Hall Green, Selston Common'.
In1896 the 'Journal of the Derbyshire Archaelogical Society' makes reference to him as ' Daniel Boswell, a king or chief of the Gipsy family of that name, who died on the 21st March, 1821, aged 73, in his tent on Hall Green, Selston Common'. Why this earlier source has his age, the date of burial and the year of burial different by six years I don't know, but the same information was evidently later used as a source in the 'Journal of the Gypsy Lore Society' in 1948, where identical information is given.
-
nice one Rich
how about this one then, the Gipsy parson Rev George Hall wrote in his book that he was at selston in 1906, well he said the epitaph was still faintly visible and referred to Dan Boswell as the chief of his Family, but Liston to this he says his farther in law was formally a curate of selston and telled George how he remembered Gipsys pouring libations of ale on the grave,
this was 1906 I think, the time of the book but in 1907 have just read this from the calendar customs a guide to British calendar customs and local traditions Selston in Nottinghamshire is the setting for one of the handful of ceremonies which take place atop a church tower. The tower here was built in the fifteenth century and it houses eight bells. Each July on the Sunday nearest 6th, a special Tower Service is conducted by the Vicar who stands on the tower and preaches to the congregation gathered on the ground at its foot below; one of the theories for the origin of the custom is that the vicar Charles Harrison thought it would encourage visiting traveller families to participate in the service, so he began the custom in 1907. Gypsy King Dan Boswell is buried here in the churchyard and Selston Green was a regular encampment for travellers. Expect the vicar’s sermon, a guest preacher and a selection of well-known hymns.
so looks like the reverent Halls relative started all this custom all be course of Gipsy Dan Boswell, and he said there was lots of people coming then pouring ale not just putting babies on the grave,
and I read this from the Nottinghamshire history resoures for local histories and genealogists
it says the Kings England Nottinghamshire
The Midland Stronhold
Edited by Arthur Mee 1938
The Gipsy King
Dan Boswell's gravestone.
Dan Boswell's restored gravestone.
SELSTON. The finest views of this colliery village are from the neatly tended churchyard, with lovely trees, where we look out to the Derbyshire hills and Crich Tower high in the west. It is a fitting resting-place for one who loved the open country, and under the shade of a lofty lime near the 15th century tower lies Dan Boswell, King of the Gipsies. On the broken stone now flat on his grave a few words are still seen, and though the epitaph is gone it was odd enough to be remembered:
I've lodged in many a town,
I've travelled many a year,
But death at length has brought me down
To my last lodging here.
do you see now it says the stones flat on the ground,
and the man who put the new stone up in the early seventy's said they searched for the right date, so maybe it never in the beginning said king,
but old Gipsy Dan now sure got people talking
-
I have the Rev.Hall's book somewhere will have to dig it out and dust it off for a read.
The Derbyshire Times, Sunday April 25th 1874 is the earliest source I can find which gives a description of the original stone:
"In Memory of Daniel Boswell, who died March 1827, Aged 83.
I have lodged in many a place 'tis true.
And traveled many a year,
Till God at length has brought me down
To my last lodgings here"
The age on that disagrees with all the other sources, 73, 76, 90! Your right that seems to show the original stone did not refer to him as a 'King' or a chief', nor did the parish register of the actual burial.
-
fair play Rich
you done well there ,
I don't suppose a person can right believe anything, you know, just because its stated,
I could be wrong but I remember Linda Boswell saying on the internet a few back that she thought Boswells of Dan's would not talk like that, I'm sure she said something along those lines ,she's one of the Derby Boswells ,as for the dates ,well there must be something behind all those wrongs, maybe there's some one who propagates things like Kings , there's one thing making money from them times having Gipsy balls , but why would you go round calling your dead kings, its like a low class thing ,each to there own like, that's just my view, not sure if any of the things I wrote from what I saw on line is true but everything at selston church yard I spoke of is as it is, pore old Dans gravestones been up and down more times than a roller coaster, and been moved to ,i wonder is it just people in someway over different times making mileage on the back of a Gipsy like Dan Boswell, but maybe not, it would be good if his relatives the ones who look can find the truth one day , good for the Gipsy Dan Boswell, I hope anyone who as read these words of mine and yours will in the future remember and find new true things, it would be a good thing to do, it was good speaking to you Rich, I'll not be back now, but you look after yourself, fair play to old Dan Boswell, I would say he came from good people , none finer than himself I say, if you ever go by selston , see how he brings you in, you,ll feel it,good luck Rich
michael
-
I was just wondering about why the grave was broke, did a cow do it, did the Gipsy smash it, then I read there was a massive restorations of the church around the time of the parsons visit, I think so endways, anyway the grave could be broke for all those reasons but just read a bit of this,
this might explain the dates getting mixed up,
Southwell and Nottingham church history project
The low number attending the church and the absence of the vicar may go some way towards explaining why, during the 18th and 19th centuries, the church seems to have been neglected and falling into disrepair. The next three vicars were largely absent, but there was a long-serving curate in the parish. John Pepper’s name first appears in the parish registers in 1803. He continued to complete the registers and officiate at nearly all of the baptisms, marriages and burials which took place at St Helen’s until the beginning of 1836. The register chest installed in the church in 1815 bears the name of this curate, not the vicar’s name.
then the building work started, all over Dans gravestone,
At the end of the 1890s, the Rev C. Harrison turned his attention to the condition of St Helen’s, and saw the need for extensive repair, restoration and enlargement
On 3 July 1904, St Helen’s was closed, becoming a building site for almost a year.
The Rev C. Harrison lived long enough to see the beginning of the First World War, but he died in May 1916. Photographs show his grave covered with an enormous display of floral tributes, evidence of the high regard in which he was held
During the 1960s and 1970s only minor alterations were made inside St Helen’s. The exterior appearance was greatly altered by the removal of many gravestones from the oldest part of the churchyard in 1963-1964. Some of the stones were used to create paths,
25 June 1810
Joseph Dixie Churchill, vicar
Died 1836. Rector of Blicking-with-Empingham 1802-1810 and 1811-1836, Vicar of Cadesby 1810-1836, Vicar of Henstead 1811-1836.
25 Nov 1836
Fleetwood Churchill, vicar
Son of J Churchill, born at Empingham. Vicar of Roughton 1817-1855. Died Feb 1855
19 July 1855
George Frederick Williamson, vicar
Also chaplain to Duchess of Gordon 1847-1863, Vicar of Longnor 1856-1864 and other posts
11 Sept 1856
Robert John William Wright, vicar
On cession of G Williamson. Died 2 Aug 1887, buried in the churchyard.
26 Nov 1887
Charles Harrison, vicar
Died 28 April 1916, buried in churchyard
21 July 1916
Richard Dudley Weller, vicar
He went to Ruddington 1924
5 Nov 1924
Philip Hannington Hart, vicar
Served in RGA 1917-1920. Resigned 12 Aug 1929
23 Nov 1929
Palmer Allison Sharp, vicar
22 Apr 1937
Henry Wright Schofield, vicar
On cession of Sharp
22 Sept 1945
Edward Frederick Holwell Dunnicliffe, MA, vicar
On cession of Schofield
1 Dec 1949
Hugh Bickersteth Bidell, vicar
On cession of Dunnicliffe. Biddell resignation 1 Oct 1956
1956
Gerald Nettleton Pearce, BA, vicar
Sequestration (cession) 14 Sept 1961
1962
Hubert Victor Simmons
On cession of Pearce. Died 3 March 1978, buried in churchyard
then I read this
0ld churches of the mansfield deanery by h walkerdine and a s buxton 1907
The most interesting object in the church, undoubtedly, is the ancient Norman font, which the vicar has lately had restored to its proper place. About 150 years ago it was removed from the church, and a family of the name of Gill carried it to Blackwell. It was subsequently brought back to Selston, and for many years did duty as a trough under the pump at the village inn, the "Bull and Butcher." Some few years ago it was carried to a private house and was used as a flower stand. A rose tree planted in it, from all accounts, flourished. At the recent restoration of the church the vicar secured possession of it, and it now occupies a more fitting place than beneath the pump at the village inn. Many immersions, certainly not of a religious nature, have taken place within this interesting relic. The font is the only remaining trace of the Norman period. It is bucket shaped, with a band of cable molding round it. The top has been used apparently for generations by Selstonians as a whetstone, on which to put an edge on pocket, and, perhaps, other knives
then I read this
Derbyshire times 02 2007
Despite the precarious nature of the event, no accident has ever been recorded…except for one incumbent who never made it almost. When thirty years ago, the Rev Vic Simmons, was about to read his final tower sermon set his foot alight with weed killer (accidentally). He was determined to do it stating:
“It was the highlight of the church year. I didn’t want to miss it.”
So a chair was carried up and no doubt he made a slow and rather tender climb to the top.
-
that took some time ,I had to delete thousands of words, then I just realised I could of done two posts,
never mind,
I hope this helps others in the future, there could be some truth in there,
michael
-
what I mean about the history of the font is, well they as in vicars , curates, or whatever name they have ,they tried to make there old church good, stone mad for showing it good, they did what they had to do, now who is the main protagonist, or should I say who is the true king, or even kings of there church, most people in most times do things for the right reason, and there's always an answer for everything, maybe its just not been found yet,
michael
-
This letter was written to the Derbyshire Times on 7th June 1873:
Dan Boswell - 'When a lad at Pinxton some twenty years ago, I recollect having pointed out to me on Selston Common, not far distant from the Hall, the place where the Gipsy King Dan Boswell died. He was buried at the back of Selston Church, and a headstone placed to his memory. I regret to say owing to the shameful practice of allowing cows to graze in the churchyard, one of the animals broke in two the stone. When I saw it one half was left in the ground and the other part not far distant. I presume it is not possible to obtain a copy of the inscription of the stone, Any particulars relating to Boswell will greatly Oblige' W.A. Editor - Cows still graze, to our knowledge, in two churchyards of this county. We are thinking of putting the owners of these freeholds [the clergymen] into the pillory of print.
That suggests it was smashed by a cow, and at least by the 1850's. A bit of a detective work shows the only lad with those initials in the village was a William Alcock born 1830, three years after Dan's burial. He later became a gas works manager, so probably was a literate man, and I would guess he is the best candidate for the man who wrote this letter. If so the grave must have been broken within the first twenty years or so of it being placed on Dan Boswell's grave in 1827. It lay broken in half for at least sixty or seventy years until the first replacement stone was put up around 1912. The inscription on the top half probably faded for the details to be more or less unrecognizable if it was lain all that time on the ground with mud being kicked onto it in those years.
-
well done Rich people will learn great things from you,
but what about the book that says the stone was broke in 1938 by Arthur Mee, that must mean it was broke not by a cow if it was changed in 1912, who broke it that time, the building work may still have been ongoing, or some person could of smashed it if they seen the writing was done wrong, I was told by that man that he dug the old bit of bottom stone out, that's why he new it was being changed,
I thought the new spot is good for people looking round the churchyard, i,m sure the old layout of surrounding graves would be right for what he said, its hard to remember thoe, easy to mix things up,
that sounds to me a good piece of evidence you found, but did anyone really see a cow knock a grave over, or just people assuming that would be about right,
some of the writing I deleted from my earlier post was about the times of the enclosure act that hit selston common right where Dan passed away, there was much trouble then, not sure if the times match I deleted everything I found ,I know people talk and say things like kings, chief, or whatever, but would people of Dans put such words on a grave stone, there would be the talk of old top men even by the locals, that's just how people talk, mind you , you already wrote about so far it never said king, in the earliest time you found yet
so that letter you found sounds right to me, but unless I seen the cow break the stone I wouldn't put to much heed in concrete truth, just say that's part of the history ,meaning someone just saying they think that happened, well your one good detective, i,m not really educated to your standard in writing , I need the spell check big time, see the truth is always the best route, I hope you find more and people remember you, I will anyway,
your Sherlock , and I,m his pal, the daft one,
all the best Rich, I was only having a go, trying to do the right decent thing,
michael
-
Yours are great posts on this Michael, they have got my mind ticking on Dan's grave stone. I'm sure your right nobody actually saw the cow kick it over. It would have to be a strong old kick to break through stone, but for good or bad the cow has taken the blame. Cow's grazing in churchyards and damaging stones was a big problem though. It was looked down upon, but vicars had the right to graze their livestocks in their churchyards, and sometimes cows and sheep just strayed in because they didn't have either the funds or the inclination to fix the church gates to keep the local livestock out!.The vicar of Clowne wrote into the Derbyshire Times a week after the Dan Boswell letter in 1873 to say he had fixed his gate and he'd no longer let the local livestock trample all over his grave yard, so obviously he was scared he was one of those they had threatened to name and shame.
I havn't heard of the 1938 source with Arthur Mee. Rev. Harrisson was planning to resurrect the stone in 1912, but whether he ever did? Maybe he didn't and the original stone was still standing...or half of it, broke in the 30's?
-
this is some of the deleated post I wrote of from the same southwell and Nottingham churches web page,
The churchyard immediately surrounding the church building was formally closed in 1857. Burials continued to take place, so it must be assumed that a new area was in use, and a further one acre was added and consecrated in 1893. The Post Office Directory of 1876 gives a very brief description of the St Helen’s, and states that the patronage has been purchased by the Wright family, who continue as patrons to the present day. It adds that the vicarage has a yearly value of £150. Although the value was increasing, it still appears to have been insufficient for the needs of the incumbent, and in 1884 the Ecclesiastical Commissioners granted £170 per annum in augmentation of the living.
In was in 1877, while Wright was still the Vicar, that the Selston Enclosure Act was passed. The was the last Enclosure Act in Nottinghamshire, and it led to many acres of the former common land being fenced, a move not entirely approved of by Selston’s residents. In Wright's Directory of Nottingham of 1894-95 it is reported, 'In 1878 a great agitation was caused in the parish as to the rights of the people on the vast area of forest and pasture land known as Selston Hall Green.
so the enclosure act came after the time of the letter ,but the churchyard was closed in 57, formally,that must mean informally it may have been closed much earlier,
yes the cow got the blame, mind you ,men are always saying bad things about old cows , merr
-
and that was a very interesting post about what you just wrote,
I hope you write a sort of book one day,
michael
-
hello Rich
how can the first letter contradict the second letter,
first the man who tells of halls green, then the story of the cow breaking not kicking the headstone in two, and not seeing the inscription, why is this, is this the earliest source of a cow, I even read some writing which says bull, do you think its just a fairy tale;
why in 1873 does he not read the inscription when in your other letter of 1874 it tells of the true inscription, well the oldest up to now, if the first letter as only a thread of truth its must be the second letter of 1874 is quoting an even older source for that inscription , through everything I have read I don't believe no cow pushed or kicked a gravestone in two, it would of just lent backwards or forwards , if there's no eye witness its just someone covering up,
a local fed up with all those Gipsys coming in strength to visit the grave in the years after Dan's death could of put the hammer through it, that's how you break a stone,
the letters contradict each other unless the inscription one is quoting an even older sours
if the relatives of Dan Boswell found the grave stone smashed they would be asking questions, being that the vicar was seldom there , the pore curate who had all the work to do maybe had to make the tale up, in my earlier post it tells how the vicar was absent most of the time in those times as quoted from this source
Southwell and Nottingham church history project
The low number attending the church and the absence of the vicar may go some way towards explaining why, during the 18th and 19th centuries, the church seems to have been neglected and falling into disrepair. The next three vicars were largely absent, but there was a long-serving curate in the parish. John Pepper’s name first appears in the parish registers in 1803. He continued to complete the registers and officiate at nearly all of the baptisms, marriages and burials which took place at St Helen’s until the beginning of 1836. The register chest installed in the church in 1815 bears the name of this curate, not the vicar’s name.
these are the two letters you found,
This letter was written to the Derbyshire Times on 7th June 1873:
Dan Boswell - 'When a lad at Pinxton some twenty years ago, I recollect having pointed out to me on Selston Common, not far distant from the Hall, the place where the Gipsy King Dan Boswell died. He was buried at the back of Selston Church, and a headstone placed to his memory. I regret to say owing to the shameful practice of allowing cows to graze in the churchyard, one of the animals broke in two the stone. When I saw it one half was left in the ground and the other part not far distant. I presume it is not possible to obtain a copy of the inscription of the stone, Any particulars relating to Boswell will greatly Oblige' W.A. Editor - Cows still graze, to our knowledge, in two churchyards of this county. We are thinking of putting the owners of these freeholds [the clergymen] into the pillory of print
The Derbyshire Times, Sunday April 25th 1874 is the earliest source I can find which gives a description of the original stone:
"In Memory of Daniel Boswell, who died March 1827, Aged 83.
I have lodged in many a place 'tis true.
And traveled many a year,
Till God at length has brought me down
To my last lodgings here"
-
and in the first letter of 1873, it is again just the locals saying king, in the 1874 second letter of the writing on the grave it does not say king, the second letter even thoe one year older must outdate in value the first , that's if you can believe anything that's wrote,
I think I will when I get time put everything thing in an order of time, so people in the future can see through time age the things we found and the things I know from meeting that man who put the new stone up, that's why I started this, for others not me, then other people can insert things in the timescale as they find them if they wish, I hope you keep putting things on ,Linda spoke decent to me years back , not many really did, I only ever wrote for her, she's a well proud person, she's from those I think the Samuel fox talk of the Derbyshire Boswells, there of the original original's, the had the dna done and that's the old lot, but I think there all related, you can be proud of that to
and she say Michael don't ever be afraid to put things on the internet of my people,
so that was good enough for me ,just encase anyone was thinking bad, and if you did,the bad luck is looking at you
michael
michael
-
I did wonder myself Michael, if the stone was broke when Dan's relatives were still alive, by man or beast, and I mean his close people, sons , daughters, grandsons were still all around, why didn't they kick up a fuss or replace it? Does seem strange. Definitely the locals sometimes took the hump at Romany families visiting graves. There's the famous story of Joshua Scamps grave in Wiltshire. The church tried to stop them visiting, took flowers off the grave, locked the church, fenced it off, and his daughter supposedly put a curse on them, so the door has never been locked up since, and the key was thrown in the local river. But even they didn't go as far as to break the stone itself.
The man who wrote the 1873 letter was just assuming the headstone could no longer be read, but the 1874 letter seems to show broken or not the writing was still clear enough , maybe the age was faded though? By the time the new stone was put up in the 20th century, I reckon the dates on the top half that had been sat in the mud all those years was faded to nothing, and that's why they got them wrong on the new stone. I don't believe the stone the family originally placed had the words 'Gypsy King' on them, I reckon that is the locals or the church men adding their own spin on him and local legend. The only other stone I know with similar wording is Lucretia Smith's in Derbyshire from 1844, where she is down as 'Queen of the Gypsies'..but again is that stone original or not, I don't know? The same with Robert Boswell 'A Gipsey' buried at Loders, Dorset on 31st March 1806. A plaque was erected on his grave site inscribed 'King of the Gypsies' but by who, his family or locals no-one seems to know, it had faded to nothing by the 1870's.
The original stone at Selston seems to have said 'Daniel Bosswell" rather than "Dan Boswell"..which matches the parish register, and all his known children's baptisms.
There are at least two older Boswell stones that exist, Inverto Boswells in Calne, Wiltshire and Rose Boswells at South Luffenham, Leicestershire. They are both described as a 'Prince' and Princess' in the local legend in these parishes but the actual inscriptions the families had made up don't make any claims like that as you'd expect.
In memory of Rose Boswell, Daughter of Edward and Sarah Boswell,Who died February 19th, 1794, Aged 17 years.What grief can vent this loss, or praises tell,how much,how good,
how beautiful she fell.
'Under this Tomb lieth the body of Inverto Boswell, Son of Henry and Elizabeth Boswell, who departed this life the 8th day of February 1774, aged 36. The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away: blessed be the Name of the Lord.’
-
hello Rich
more great writing from you, very sad writing to,
I will talk another time, I think its best to show some respect for all those people, it was very sad writing,
but I do hope to talk again
respect for all Gipsy people who have moved on,
and rest in peace all people of the world
michael
-
hello Rich
if this is true
Nottinghamshire history resoures for local histories and genealogists
it says the Kings England Nottinghamshire
The Midland Stronghold
Edited by Arthur Mee 1938 Hodder & Stoughton, 1938
The Gipsy King
Dan Boswell's gravestone.
SELSTON. The finest views of this colliery village are from the neatly tended churchyard, with lovely trees, where we look out to the Derbyshire hills and Crich Tower high in the west. It is a fitting resting-place for one who loved the open country, and under the shade of a lofty lime near the 15th century tower lies Dan Boswell, King of the Gipsies. On the broken stone now flat on his grave a few words are still seen, and though the epitaph is gone it was odd enough to be remembered:
I've lodged in many a town,
I've travelled many a year,
But death at length has brought me down
To my last lodging here
it means Rich the stone is still next to the grave in 1938,
but if this is true
Southwell and Nottingham church history project
During the 1960s and 1970s only minor alterations were made inside St Helen’s. The exterior appearance was greatly altered by the removal of many gravestones from the oldest part of the churchyard in 1963-1964. Some of the stones were used to create paths,
it means the top half of the original stone is in one of the paths round the church,
and the man who put up the new stone in 72, I think he said, well he said that the vicar searched records for the right date from the church,
so if the stone was never replaced in 1912, it was still there together in 38 but in the sixty's they cleaned the place up and put the top half in a path, in 1972 they changed the stone the inscription and alignment of the grave, but Liston there's more , do you think that someone still alive now would have had any input into the new inscription, other that the vicar I mean, now that would be a turn up if the inscription from the 1874 letter never gets outdated,
michael
-
24 February 1912 - Derbyshire Courier -"The Rev. Charles Harrison, vicar of Selston, Notts, who this year completes quarter of a century's ministry in that parish, has made his corner of the county notable in several ways. Once every year Mr. Harrison ascends the church tower and preaches to his congregation assembled on the ground below. This service, he says, has given the parish of Selston world-wide fame, and his stackyard service, he considers, bids fair to be a good second. In this direction Mr. Harrison’s plan is rivalled—if I may put it that way—by the Rector of Killatnarsh (the Rev. F. J. Metcalfe), who once a year on Feast Sunday holds a service in the Killamarsh, Fair Ground, and preaches from the stops of the " roundabouts." The Vicar of Selston, however has now another scheme on hand. His parish was years ago the rendezvous of the gipsy race, and he hopes to organise a festival in which the representatives of the varions clans could take part, and could see re-erected the broken tombstone of Dan Boswell"
Hello Michael, that's the newspaper report on Harrison. He seems a bit of a showman, not your usual man of the cloth. It looks like his plan came to nothing then if the broken stone was still standing in 1938. What I can't understand is if it was replaced when Rev Hubert Victor Simmons was at St Mary's, Selston, 1962 - 1976, then the parish register should have still been with the church, it wasn't law to send them to the register office until 1978. So he must have looked in the register, llike the man told you he did, and seen Daniel was 76 when buried. So why did 90 end up on the new stone? Like alot with Dan's stone, bit of a mystery. I can't think anyone in the family was still visiting it and would have had an input, they would have paid themselves to replace the stone long before the 70's....it must have lain broken for over 120 years. And like you I doubt they'd have wanted the title 'Gypsy King' put on the stone.
-
hello Rich
I know what your saying about the rev Vic Simmons,
but there was two churches, I think the st Marys is not as old as st Helens, your getting mixed with the sours about Vic's life, I read he went to two churches , but our talk is st Helens
if you look on page one I give a list of all the church people at st Helens in Dan Boswells time , I've cut it down here to the three big ones , and do you see there all buried in st Helens with Dan
the rest are not ,I think your saying st Marrys becourse on the web I seen that to ,
number one is vicar Wright, he's the one in the time the stopped the Gipsys coming, it was the time of the enclosure of the commonland and finishing with the old bit of the churchyard were Dan Boswell was layed to rest, I think this is what the rev Harrison is talking about when he said this from that report you just wrote,
The Vicar of Selston, however has now another scheme on hand. His parish was years ago the rendezvous of the gipsy race, and he hopes to organise a festival in which the representatives of the varions clans could take part, and could see re-erected the broken tombstone of Dan Boswell"
so this is Rev Wright below, st Helens
11 Sept 1856
Robert John William Wright, vicar
On cession of G Williamson. Died 2 Aug 1887, buried in the churchyard.
then you have Rev Harrison,
the man with great idears, I read a lot of him , there a photo on the web to,
this is him below st Helens
26 Nov 1887
Charles Harrison, vicar
Died 28 April 1916, buried in churchyard
then you have good old Vic, that's some name herbot, no wonder they called him vic,
this is him below st Helens not st Marys but I see why you said that, I seen his grave my self, he is of the time they cleared all the old stones up to make paths, I read a few reports on this but only wrote a little, I will have to try and find it all again but I,v forgot where it was,pluss hes the good man who at least had the dignity to put a new stone up,
this is him below st Helens
1962
Hubert Victor Simmons
On cession of Pearce. Died 3 March 1978, buried in churchyard
yes the broken stone still standing in 38, but the big bit is as it says the stones on its back on the ground , this is the top half, so looks so far like there was only ever one stone till 1972 I think or the odd year here or there, but I think 72, and he did say it was inside the church they searched for the date for it was me who asked him, and he did say some more things but I don't think I'll talk about it, it was Vic he says done the lot for Dan Boswell, I did say he could be searched out, plus he's photos of him digging the new grave in, and the old one you could read a bit but blurred, you had to dig that out the ground, when I get time I think I'll get photos of
the path if I find it and the place where he showed me the old stone was , just to the left it was , facing the church , plus all the vicars graves, plus the church,
I don't know if it was the register they looked at, in the church he said, no inside the church, why didn't the Family back the 1800s put the stone back,
like no one dear touch it, they might of thought Dan did it, it could be mokody Rich ,not what the books says mokody, but how I learned from young, mokody, I'm not trying to be clever, i,m thinking why would they not go near it, it as a lot of meaning that word does, you cant learn it by reading from all them books, it could be the stone itself mokody, and Dan the top man , sure he came back and smashed the stone for the date was wrong,
the relatives might have moved on before the ground had settled and the stone erected, it couled have been a year before they returned , found the wrong date on the stone and it smashed, then they wouldn't touch it ,that's just my talk Rich, everyone should talk there own talk ,
michael
-
just read this bit again Rich,
His parish was years ago the rendezvous of the gipsy race, and he hopes to organise a festival in which the representatives of the various clans could take part, and could see re-erected the broken tombstone of Dan Boswell
he more than likely did see some of the Gipsys, but they wouldn't come back and change the stone,
that rev Harrison did about everything he set out to do, looks like 38 shows he failed on the gravestone, well all you can do is look at what you find , if more is found , maybe we have to think again, but least people in the future will know, or can use things to help in there own search , even in a hundred years time, I,ld say we would be well forgotten then Rich
-
I got the bit about rev Harrison in the first post mixed in with the talk about rev Wright, herrmmm
-
and I forgot to tell you, just finish writing any time you want, don't write just be course you think you have to, you done just fine, in fact fantastic, and if you ever write in a magazine or paper just say you found everything, don't have to be telling no one of me, for when we've done here I'll tell them to delete the lot but you copy things and put it in your name, only the bits you want to copy mind you,
I know you'll do this
your pal michael
-
Yes I am getting mixed up with too with the parishes thanks for pointing it out. Yes they must have had some reasons not to fix the stone. Obviously they wern't keen on it either when Harrison tried in 1912. I imagine by the 1970's that was all long forgotten and the stone was changed without any input from living descendants. I went to a funeral of a young man who sadly died at just twenty one a few years back, Rom and Gaujas together attended, and there was a dispute there about whether it was mokady or not for some to be taking photos of the grave. So even in different families people have different ideas on that. I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of it at all, so interested that you think it might have played a part Michael, I wouldn't argue otherwise.
-
like I said Rich , its only my talk, most people think I'm strange, and don't understand me one bit ,i,m not trying to say I know things, or this is what you do or this is what you don't do,i always say this is my talk, but I find its usually people who cant talk who jump in and have a go, what can a man do in life but just say his own talk, lots just pretend they have ways or so called customs, done to much reading, I wouldn't go to no funeral and take photos, but I see no harm years later researching or family knowledge photos, again just my talk ,don't get the two mixed up , its just respectful not to be taking photos at a funeral, what I,m talking about now at selston is totally different ,my talk is its mokody to even talk about mokody ,but I,ll chance it to just help others, see just my talk ,straight and true, please don't ever try to understand, i,m nothing like the people at that funeral,
I,m the last of the line ,ther,ll be no more when I,m gone
-
Your talk is good to me Michael. You've give me plenty of food for thought. I'm sure Dan's family must have still been visiting the grave long after it was broken. What you say at least would make sense..it explains why they didn't fix it. Whether a cow can kick a stone in half or not I don't know, but maybe the family didn't believe that at all and thought it was done somehow else and for a reason and should best be left that way. I don't suppose we can know that for sure. I will visit the grave at some point...reading about it is one thing, but I should go and see for myself.
-
Rich, I wrote this in page one,
Derbyshire times 02 2007
Despite the precarious nature of the event, no accident has ever been recorded…except for one incumbent who never made it almost. When thirty years ago, the Rev Vic Simmons, was about to read his final tower sermon set his foot alight with weed killer (accidentally). He was determined to do it stating:
“It was the highlight of the church year. I didn’t want to miss it.”
So a chair was carried up and no doubt he made a slow and rather tender climb to the top.
tell me , why do you think I wrote it,
and I wrote it long before I talked about what we was talking about, and that was only thinking aloud of what we have so far found, but I wrote this above about the rev Vic Simmons be course I think the way I do , for it is the way I am,
when I get the photos ,one day, I will put them on, and I'll try and find more information, its just I struggle for the time to do such things,
your a top man yourself,
good luck
yes Rich go and see for yourself, why not , all them scholars of long ago, going round the country, talking to this person or that person, there was nothing special about them, you , me , we can talk and do as we see freely, I used to talk to a great man named Elik, he says he's from the royal ones of Scotland those Farr Blyth's, descendant he was, he didn't go on to me about such things but others he did, he was really kind and would talk to me about Gipsy things and certain family's, we wrote to each other about such things i wish he was here now , I want people to remember his name ,
rest in peace Elik, you done a man a good turn before you would do him a bad one
thank you for being so kind
michael
-
Nottinghamshire history resoures for local histories and genealogists W E Doubleday, Notts Villages: Selston, The Nottinghamshire Guardian (August 1956) Church in decay
Stretton, who was here with his notebook in 1813, described the church as in a sore state of decay. The pulpit lay in the chancel, the font lay broken in the churchyard, and the chancel, he said, was "far in decay." Subsequently, the walling developed cracks, and in 1899, the fabric was completely restored.
The noble south porch still preserves remains of the hook and chain once used to keep cattle out of the sacred building.
Until enclosures invaded the wastes and commons, this district was attractive to the gipsies who formed camps, hereabouts, especially in the rear of the pinfold at Selston.
Dan Boswell's grave in Selston churchyard..
At an encampment near Bestwood in 1823, their "King" Dan Boswell, died and after interment inside Eastwood and Selston had been refused, the body was buried near the tower in Selston churchyard in the presence of a large concourse of gipsies and other spectators.
According to tradition, he gave his daughter a quart measure full of golden guineas at her wedding by way of dowry.
so they had it all on to keep cattle out of the church, never mind the grave yard, that's a good bit of sound evidence, doesn't mean a cow broke the grave, but this tells you for sure they were all over the place in long gone times, merr, and here it says Dan died in bestwood, not halls green, its miles away, then they talk of eastwood, pluss the church was nigh on a reck just before Dan died, merr
one day someone will find the truth
michael
-
W E Doubleday, Notts villages: Bestwood, The Nottinghamshire Guardian (1942)
Dan Boswell, the gipsy king, died at Bestwood in 1823 and his body was removed for burial
attended by a vast concourse of mourners.
.
-
H. Hampton Copnall, Nottinghamshire County Records: Notes and Extracts from the Nottinghamshire County Records of the 17th Century, Henry B. Saxton, 1915
ROGUES, VAGRANTS, &c.
In the Records of 14th April, 1655, there is a definition of a Rogue and Vagabond as follows:
These persons hereunder mentioned being above the age of seaven years, are by the Law adjudged Rogues &c. &c.
All persons calling themselves Schollers going about begging; All seafaring men pretending losses of their shipps or Goods on ye Sea going about the Country begging, having not testimoniall under the hand of a Justice of peace, or if the time limitted by the same for his journey be expired, All idle persons going about the Country begging, or useing any subtill craft or unlawfull games or player or feigning themselves to have knowledge in Physiognomy Palmaistry or other like Crafty Science Or pretending that that they can tell destinys fortunes or such other Phantasticall Imaginations; All persons that be or uttar themselves to be Proctors procurers, patent gatherers or collectors for Goales, prisons or hospitalls; All fencers bearwards comon players of Interludes and Minstralls wandring abroad. All Jugglers Tinkers Pedlers and petty chapmen wandring abroad, All wandring persons and comon Labourers being persons able in body useing loytering and refuseing to worke for such reasonable wages as are taxed, or comonly given in such parts where such persons doe or shall happen to dwell or abide not haveing liveing otherwise to maintain themselves All persons delivered out of Goales that shall begg for their fees or otherwise doe travill begging pretending losses by fyre or otherwise All such persons (not being felons) pretending themselves to be Egiptiants or wandring in ye habit form or attyre of counterfit Egiptians All such persons as shall wander upp and down the Country to sell Glasses (not being duly Licenced) are adjudged Rogues &c.
The Parish Constables had statutory powers and duties to place in the Stocks and to whip any Vagrants they may find, and pass them on from Constable to Constable till they reached the parish in which they were legally settled—usually the parish of their birth.
The using of forged documents for begging purposes was not unusual.
There were many Indictments of persons " for refusing to carry passports."
When the Court found a person to be an "incorrigible Vagabond" they ordered him to be burnt with the letter "R" on the left shoulder before being sent to the place of settlement. The burning took place in Court.
On 10th July, 1615, an Order was made that an incorrigible vagabond "then and there in Court with a hot burning hent a large Roman letter R be impressed the size of a shilling on his left arm."
On 10th October, 1617, an Order was made that an incorrigible vagabond "in open Session be burnt in the left shoulder with the Roman letter R of the width of a shilling."
In 1623, complaints were made of the abundance of wandering vagabonds being allowed to pass by unpunished by the negligence in the Constables, and the Chief Constables of the Wapentake of Bassetlaw were ordered to send their warrants to the under Constables, keepers of the night and day watches for the apprehension and punishment of the vagabonds and wandering beggars.
Constables were fined for laxity and neglect in the treatment of rogues and vagabonds. Among the charges recorded against Constables are the following:
Because being instructed to take a certain Vagabond before a Justice of the peace he permitted him to go at large in contempt of the lord the King.
Permitting a Vagabond to wander about unpunished.
Permitting a Vagabond to beg in the towns of Retford, Wellough and Gamston.
Refusing the execute punishment on a Vagabond brought to him, &c, &c, &c.
It was an offence for anyone to refuse to assist a Constable in the punishing of a vagrant, and there were presentments in respect of this offence, and also "for refusing to help Constable with Vagrant to the Stocks."
On 20th April, 1612, a "collyer" of Selston was presented for harbouring vagrants.
Fines were also imposed "for permitting wandering Vagabonds" and "for not sending away Vagabonds"; and keepers of alehouses lost their licences if they "entertained Vagrants, Vagabonds and suspicious persons" in their houses.
GIPSIES.
By the Statute 22 Henry VIII. c. 10, gipsies (or as they were then called Egyptians) were banished from the kingdom, and subsequent legislation imposed punishment on any person who imported gipsies into the Kingdom.
There were presentments against Constables "for permitting Vagrants called Egiptians to escape," "for permitting Vagabonds (Egiptians) to go unpunished," and "for having permitted Gipsies to remain in the townships longer than was necessary," &c.
There were also presentments against alehouse keepers "for harbouring Egiptians."
On 8th January, 1615-1616, a warrant was issued against Gabriel Elston of Chilwell "because he procured two Egyptians to deliver from custody" a man who had been arrested on a warrant.
-
Hi Michael, Hope you are well
Interesting posts as ever.
I would like to find an original newspaper report of Daniel Boswell's death and burial but so far have been unsuccessful. The burial entry in the parish register is the only real bit of evidence dating from the time he died.
It looks to me as the later sources are confusing him with Louis Boswell, who was probably Daniel's son, as he did die at Bestwood Lane eight years later, and the newspaper reports mention the quart of gold guineas given to his daughter as her dowry:
‘Nottingham Journal 30th January 1835.—King or the Gipsies, Died last week, at the Royal encampment, Bestwood-lane, in the parish of Basford, near this town, after a lingering illness, Louis Boswell, King of the Gipsies, aged 42. A report being generally circulated that the ‘royal’ remains were lying in state, and that the funeral would take place on Sunday at' Basford, many thousand persons visited the encampment that day, so that the road was literally crowded for many hours. The funeral, however, did not take place, as a deputation from the Gipsies of Leicestershire was expected, which arrived that evening, when it was determined to inter the royal remains in the usual burying-place, ‘No Man’s Heath’, in Northamptonshire. The coffin was made of good oak, ornamented with black furniture, and had a breast-plate, with a plain inscription of the name and age. We are informed that on Sunday night, at eleven o’clock, a procession was formed, which set out with the royal corpse for ‘No Man’s Heath’ attended by the royal princess, and a considerable train, but that circumstances afterwards occurred that induced the procession to stay at Eastwood, where the funeral took place on Monday in the presence of a vast concourse of spectators. The deceased succeeded to the royal dignity on the death of his father, which took place a few years ago in Lincolnshire, and he has left his only daughter, a fine-looking personage, a quartern measure filled with gold for her fortune.’
Again like Dan the 'King of the Gypsies' title might have been an invention of the press or the local villagers imaginations, as he appears simply in the parish register as Louis Boswell ‘Traveller, aged 42’ buried at Eastwood, Nottinghamshire on 26th January 1835.
The father giving the bride a glass of guineas on her wedding day is also mentioned twenty years earlier when one of Henry Lock's daughters was married in Gloucestershire, though in her case it was a pint rather than a quarten (two pints):
Cheltenham Chronicle 25th May 1815 - Gipsy Wedding.—‘A correspondent observes, on the 16th instance, was married, at Doynton, in this County, by the Rev. Mr. Gunning, Mr. John Wilson, a resident near Stroud, Gloucestershire, to Sarah Lock, daughter of Henry Lock, a Gipsy, now living in tents near Doynton. After the ceremony the bells of Doynton and Dyrham rang melodiously; and the well known band of Dyrham and Hinton, followed by about 200 persons, attended to play the happy pair to the Bull at Hinton, where a good dinner was provided, after which a ball commenced, which was performed in a capital style by the Gipsies and the inhabitants for miles around, who attended. All was peaceful and quiet, and the punch, etc, flowed plenteously. The party broke up about 11 o’clock, the Gipsies retiring to their tents, and the rest of the company to their respective homes. Henry Lock gave his daughter for her marriage portion a pint of Guineas.’
-
The confusion of Dan with Louis can be dated back at least to 1838 when Dan's widow Sarah died. She is recorded as Sarah Boswell, buried at St Mary's, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, on 1st May 1838. Age given as 93. The reports confuse her husbands death and burial at Selston in 1827, with that of her probable son Louis at Eastwood in 1835:
‘Norfolk Chronicle 19th May 1838 - Mrs. Sarah Boswell, aged 93. Queen of the Gipsies. This is another of the illustrious of the Gipsy tribe, who is gone to that bourne whence no traveller returns. Though living as a Gipsy all her life, she has far outgone the common age for mortals; but this, perhaps, may be accounted for by the fact she was a Queen. Her marriage lines, which were seen at the workhouse, indisputably proved that she was married to the great Boswell, The King of the Gipsies, 72 years since. The King died at the gipsy-camp, at Eastwood Park, in 1835, and was interred in Eastwood Church-yard. His Queen was soon after chargeable to Selstone parish, and was sent to Basford Union workhouse, from which she came out in March last, and was received into Nottingham Union Hospital, where she was placed under suspended orders, on account of severe illness.’
-
"The noble south porch still preserves remains of the hook and chain once used to keep cattle out of the sacred building"
I agree Michael that is evidence cows were being left to roam at will through the graveyard, if a hook and chain was needed to stop them getting in the church building itself! Of course no that doesn't prove they broke Dan's stone..but still.
-
look into the fire becca,
mam , you alright mam,
becca I,v to go soon but you know I,ll always be there, always be at your side, look to the night sky, and I,ll be there , but mam I don't want you to go,
look into the fire becca, look into the fire, tell me what do you see,
I see flames mam , dancing flames,
then look into the flames becca ,look deep into the flames, now what do you see
I see you mam, I see you , in a coffin mam, I see you,
don't be afraid becca, I,ll always be there,
-
hello Rich
when you talk of st marrys Nottingham, about Dans Wife, do you meen Nottingham st marrys or in Nottinghamshire, my Mother was born from st marrys and died there to but that is the old high church in Nottingham, which st marrys do you talk of,
michael
-
I don't know but through time I sure hear a lot of st marrys church round Britain, I wonder does it meen anything from long ago
-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Mary's_Church,_Nottingham
This is the church where Sarah was buried, in Nottingham city itself Michael.
Lewis' son Frampton Boswell, age 20 was also buried at St Mary's, Eastwood, Nottinghamshire, ten months after his father on 28th December 1835.
Yes my local church is also a St Mary's, was baptised there. I suppose it was most common dedication for the churches built before the break with Rome, when worship of the virgin was more common.
-
yes I'm fine Rich
I hope you are well to, your writings about Dan Louis and Sarah Boswell is I'm sure interesting for all who are lucky enough to read your posts, I could never tire of reading your words ,
I found in some of the places on the internet that I searched that st Hellen's was restored or changed years back with stone from a man who had the stone for st Marys in Nottingham, I will put it on when I find it again, I just find things such as these interesting, its just how I think, so interesting to see the bigger picture, you get a feel for the times and people you think of or write about, I found a few writings of the old populations of those places we talked of, when you find that years ago selston was so small and only a few hundred people about the place, no wonder when the Gipsy came they would be the talk of the town, I will put that on to
and the Boswells would be the real deal to, they would of looked the part I would say, that why I put all that writing on about the 1600s, it shows how there was lots of folk moving abouts the country, but the Gipsys was different, that's why some of the other traverlas even thoe they did similar trades and true everyone no matter who they were got in trouble now and then, but back the 1600s they new the difference between what they called Egiptians and traverlas, that's why they called some traverlas ,counterfeit, you know like frauding away,
properly in the 1700s things were maybe mixing more, in all sorts of ways, this is how I see things from what I learn from writings I read and talking to knowledgeable people as your self, but you can always learn more and better your mind, that's what learning is, I will just tell you a story about st Marys you know the bigger picture , but I,ll do another post, I'm a dingolo and always deleting my posts of words to make it fit.
-
yes Rich that's the st Marys my Mother was taken to as a baby or child, yes the same one they talk of , I did see on Sue Days Romany web site lists of baptisms I think with Boswell names, I telled Linda about that, and I know old churches were catholic years back, but st Marys is a very well to do church of Nottingham, how my Mother was taken there and why I'll never know, never heard of no one else taken there, not saying no one ever was there , but its so strange a thing,
we would walk by the high church and often she would remark on the fact, I never knew what to think of such talk, then when she passed away long ago my Brother went and asked them and sure enough what she telled of was true, so they said we could bring her back to the church where her own Mother took her long ago, if you look on the web site of st Marys you put up, there is a big black iron gate, that's where we came down with the coffin, and st Marys still as old ways like the old church, they had my Mother lay in state all night in the church its self ,and the old cannon vicar brought out the quire to sing old songs, its a very old church ,you would have to be there to understand, well now back to the story, yes the big iron gate, well we took my Mother to be buried and we was standing round the grave and the cannon was saying holy things and waving is arms about I think,
but then out comes the big old iron key, jumps straight out is pocket and down it goes, sure it land on top of my Mothers coffin, and there it stayed looking back at us, everyone stood still, the grave men looked to the cannon, thinking I would say of maybe getting the key back if the cannon wished, but he shook his head in a silent fast way for them to not have such ideas, they would never had got near the grave anyhow, merrr, it was a singe Rich, us lot there new my Mother took the key to come back, any time she wants to, it was a singe,
and I was born near st Marys, if you toss a few stones that's how far I was, and Linda telled of her Family living in the shadow itself of st Marys, old quarter that was back in those old times, I seen on census reports Sue Day showed me long ago of people I would be related to coming into Nottingham from the beginning of the 1800s, with st mary wrote on it ,like the parish name maybe,
Linda even said back the old times her people would more than likely have know some of the ones I talk of, then I even seen a census with some of what could be said my relations in a camp with those Blewitts, and some big names to, then i,m sure Sue said Dans lot was with the Blewitts as well over the years, so i think Linda was right , years ago people knew each other , i,v no clue really, but its great to lurn things ,people can think what they will in life, my own GrandMother would not stay in the same field as other Gipsys, i don't mean all Gipsys, and why , who knows
i will put more things on i find, i would think in times to come relations finding things like you write of will be very grateful for your efforts, and see it as the kind deed for which it is
i,m no one, not evan trying to be no one, i,m just me , everyone who is someone are more than welcome to be such,
michael
-
and i forgot to say, we back filled my Mothers grave, she still as the key to this day,
-
Nottinghamshire history resoures for local histories and genealogists W E Doubleday, Notts Villages: Selston, The Nottinghamshire Guardian (August 1956)
There was a population of 833 in 1801, and 68 houses, the same as Basford, while Hucknall had 77, Bulwell 49, Linby 33, and Newstead 16. In 1793, the inhabitants had numbered only 524, but it was rapidly increasing and during the previous five years, it had witnessed 117 births and 71 burials. The last census (1951) revealed 9,691, and the total to-day is estimated at 10,000 or more.
-
web site . A Vision Of Britain Through Time
A vision of Britain between 1801 and 2001.
Including maps, statistical trends and historical descriptions.
Home
Britain
England
Nottinghamshire
Selston
In 1870-72, John Marius Wilson's Imperial Gazetteer of England and Wales described Selston like this:
SELSTON, a village and a parish in Basford district, Notts. The village stands near the Erewash river, 1 mile S of Pinxton r. station, and 3¾ S E by E of Alfreton; and has a post-office under Alfreton. The parish contains also the hamlets of Bagthorpe and Underwood, and comprises 2, 330 acres. Real property, £5, 396; of which £850 are in mines. Pop. in 1851, 2, 101; in 1861, 2, 628. Houses, 503. The increase of pop. arose from extension of coal mining. The manor belongs to Lady Palmerston and the Earl of Mexborough. Stocking-weaving is carried on. The living is a vicarage in the diocese of Lincoln. Value, £150.* Patrons, the Heirs of Sir W. Dixie, Bart. The church was reported in 1859 as bad. There are chapels for Calvinists, Baptists, and Primitive Methodists.
-
A. S. Buxton, Selston church, Transactions of the Thoroton Society, vol XVI, 1912
The work of the 15th century is seen in the three-light east window and the whole of the tower. On the battlement, on the south side of the tower, are the letters J. and M.,— Jesus and Mary. Also, the letters T. S. with a shield, bearing a bend between a pierced mullet and an annulet. Mr. George Fellows is of opinion that these are the arms of the Samons. The Samons were at Annesley Woodhouse, and of the same family as John Samon, of Nottingham, who contributed to the building of St. Mary’s Church there.
These arms seem to indicate that a Samon helped in the building of Selston tower. The tower was supposed to have been built by an Annesley, as it was thought that the stone came from some Annesley quarry. This theory perhaps gives us the clue to the exact part played by the Samons, viz., that the stone was provided by a member of that family.
-
Morning Michael
Fascinated to hear of your close connection with St Mary's church. Thanks for sharing that with me. It's strange where the road leads isn't it.
Here are another couple of earlier sightings of Boswells at that same church:
John Boss, ‘of Loughborough, Leicestershire’, and Mary Newberry, ‘of the parish’, married by license, at St Mary's, Nottinghamshire, on 23rd December 1780.
Maria Boswell, daughter of Sacre Boswell and Sarah, baptised at St Mary’s, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire on 7th March 1809.
Sacre and Sarah is Zachariah Boswell with his wife Sarah Boyling. Zachariah was probably the brother of Absalom and Trinity Boswell, children of Phillis Blewitt by her first partner Richard Boswell. She later had at least one child by the 'King' Daniel Boswell who lays buried in Selston. Zachariah had a tough life, lost his wife early, was jailed quite a few times and had a real sad end when he slipped and fell in the Grand Union Canal at Leicester and drowned in 1843. But there is the Blewitt connection to these Boswells anyway. The two families were close cousins, they were marrying together as early as the 1690's at least.
Here's the children I have baptised to Daniel Boswell, some in Nottinghamshire:
Richard Boswell, son of Daniel Boswell ‘of Bishop Auckland’, baptised at St Andrew, Auckland, Durham on 5th March 1781.
Robert Boswell, ‘Born in this field’ son of Daniel Boswell ‘of Overton, Derbyshire, son of Edward and Jane Boswell’ and Sarah, baptised at St Michael, Sutton Bonnington, Nottinghamshire, on 17th June 1788.
Lazarus Boswell, son of Daniel Boswell and Sarah, baptised at Ruddington, Nottinghamshire, on 2nd July 1797
Starkey Boswell, son of Daniel Boswell and Phillis, baptised at Sleaford, Lincolnshire, on 17th May 1804.
Going from memory here I think the youngest Starkey was transported with another brother and then one or both were killed by natives in the bush in Australia when working on a road with a chain gang.
I am glad my research on the family is interesting to you Michael. My own family links are not with Boswells, but with New Forest, Surrey and Kent families like the Ayres, Stanleys, Careys and Whites. But researching these a few years ago, I kept getting back to about 1780-1810 then hitting a brick wall . I made it my own small personal mission to try and find and put together as many early sources for Gypsy people in Britain from 1500-1800 and try and make some sense of them. Obviously the Boswells are always going to be big part of that. I have written the findings up and they are with the Romany and Traveller Family History Society, with a view to publication, so hopefully they will help other researchers, and prove useful to those tracing their families. There's a lot of good work already out there by the likes of Eric Trudgill, Anne-Marie Ford and the late Terence Lee, so its just my own contribution.
-
wow is all I can say Rich ,
I must read everything again and again, those Ayres was on the internet down like the Boswells as old people from way over the seas , same as the Smiths, I think Vince Smith was one of the first people in Britain to have his dna done, he's not to bad a fellow either, always gave me time anyways,
very knowledgably man he is, don't worry if that family history society don't print your work, most societies things are more than likely clicky, so if you don't fit in , don't worry for your content is second to none, you will be talked and read about for hundreds of years, if no one wants you just put the lot on hear, and those Blewitts all bred with the Boswells for donkeys years, and the Boilings, I,m sure I seen censuses of far relations of mine marring them to in long years,
you really write well, don't get down hearted if you think people are not interested, my Mother drove it into us to get up, put your shoulders back hold your chin high and march out down the road, you've a tongue in your head she said, so use it,
she was great at knocking the doors and getting money, she could sell anything ,but I wont go on,
I to started this writing for I felt obliged to,
the things you find and write about are really of importance , and if you enjoy doing it to , well isn't life grand
you can always write a book, have it printed yourself, I don't think it costs to much,
and I was thinking about Dan Boswells early time in print, what you seek I mean, try researching
dates that don't match the register, just because you think that must be true maybe could put you from the real truth, maybe the dates that seem stupid maybe are right, I seen with my own eyes on censuses how people , well lets just say, they didn't want no one to find things, I,v a Great Grammar, and not a soul in the world ever traced Her, you have to maybe think like a Gipsy to understand and find the hard things,
anyways Rich talk another time, I will get the photos on, if there is anything I ever found you can put it in your writing to,
good luck Rich
Leahcim
-
Nottinghamshire history resoures for local histories and genealogists
R. F. B. Hodgkinson, Extracts from the Act Books of the Archdeacons of Nottingham, Transactions of the Thoroton Society, 30 (1926)
Extracts from the Act Books of the Archdeacons of Nottingham.
Continued from Transactions, 1925, pp. 19-67.
Extracted and Collated By R. F. B. Hodgkinson.
Cases Concerning Churches.
Repairs to Churches.
On 6th April, 1574, William Eliot, of East Stoke, was cited for not repairing his portion of the churchyard wall. He admitted that he had usually done so and was still ready to do so if his landlord, Thomas Stanhope, thought it ought to be done, but at the next court he alleged that he lived in the Hospital of St Leonard [of Stoke] which he asserted was not liable for repairs to the church of Stoke and so he could not be held liable to repair the churchyard wall. The case was adjourned so that his claim could be enquired into but unfortunately there are no further entries.
22 June 1574. John Key, of Newark, because the wall of the churchyard was in ruins through his neglect.
He alleged "that the churchwardens of Newarke for the time beinge do yearly make a general collecion throughe out the whole parishe and therewithall do from time to time repare, upholde and mentaine the fence of the said churche yarde as neede requireth and by reason thereof hee ought not (as hee said) to bee charged in this behalf." He was dismissed.
-
Panished and Richard, I am really intrigued with your postings and stories. I don't have any Gypsy connections, but I am finding your knowledge and research findings amazing and fascinating!
Jeanne
-
helo Jeanne ,
I do hope you are well, if you look at the next page back, Rich talks of that society, go on there web page, they have lots of interesting things about people and history, and write to them to put Richards great works on the Gipsys Family's of Britain on there web site,
we have to start a partition for them to put Rich in print, you can be the treasurer, I'm the president,
Rich can make the teas,
michael x
-
Nottinghamshire history resoures for local histories and genealogists
The Stranger's Guide to Nottingham (1827)
ST. MARY'S CHURCH,
of which we give a spirited view as seen from the High-pavement called the mother church of the town, being the most ancient. Indeed the date of its erection is not known, but it is supposed to have been built in the 15th century. The ground on which it stands is twenty-three yards above the level of the meadows. It is in the form of a cross, and has a handsome square tower, in which is a musical peal of ten bells.—This church was originally all in the Gothic style, but in 1726, the west end was rebuilt, when the uniformity of the place was destroyed, the Doric order being substituted, and instead of the lofty pinnacles which used to adorn that end, a Grecian urn was substituted. The dimensions of this church are, in the inside, from east to west, two hundred and sixteen feet, from south to north in the centre, ninety-seven feet, in the chancel twenty-nine feet, and at the west end, or principal entrance, sixty-seven feet. The height of the steeple is one hundred and twenty-six feet, and of the aisles sixty feet. The porch on the south side, as seen in the annexed view, is a very ancient piece of workmanship, on the fluting of the pediment of which was sculptured red and white roses, some traces of which may even yet be discerned.—In the west gallery is an excellent organ, of great power, built by the celebrated Statelet; the instrument is supported by two Tuscan columns, which may be seen to advantage in the ante-church, and over the columns is a picture of David playing on his harp. There are many monumental inscriptions, for here are the tombs of the first and second Earls of Clare, dated 1637 and 1665, also the Earl Meath, who died in 1715. Many of the ancient family of the Plumptres are also interred here, and the mausoleum of the family of the Wrights is distinguished by many tablets. In the north window of the chancel, is the figure of St. Andrew, in stained glass, defended by a wire protector. There is service at halfpast ten and halfpast six every Sabbath, and the Vicar is the Rev. George Wilkins, D.D.Leaving this holy and consecrated ground, the stranger will do well to cross to the opposite side of the High-pavement, where is a narrow passage, called Malin-hill, which takes us to what is called the Long-stairs, that lead into Red-lion-street, formerly called Narrow-marsh. Instead of descending these stairs, we go a little way down the hill, where a most interesting scene is presented to the view. Immediately below, on a level with your feet, are the chimneys of a thousand houses; beyond these is a view of the meadows, the London road, &c, and to the east on the top of the hill, is to be seen the neat little church of Snenton, forming altogether a prospect highly gratifying to the stranger. We must now turn back into the High-pavement, where, nearly opposite the County-hall, is a street called Mary-gate, at the corner of which is the Old Angel public house, formerly known as Bugge-hall, the mansion of a family of that name, from whom are descended the Willoughby's, and several other distinguished families. Here, if the traveller pleases, he may stop, and partake of a fair sample of the potent liquor, so well known by the name of Nottingham ale.
"Nottingham ale, boys, Nottingham ale,
"No liquor on earth like Nottingham ale."
The cause of the superiority of this beverage, is ascribed to a variety of causes; by some to the very fine barley grown in this and the adjoining counties, by some to the water, by others to the fuel, and lastly, to the excel. lent rock cellars in which the drink is stored, almost every house, of any extent in the town, having a cellar hewn out of the rock belonging to it. Without stopping to settle the question, which would take us rather too long, we will go up Mary-gate, where, on the left-hand side, is the
when it says Red Lion Street, that is were Linda,s Family lived , the Derbyshire Boswells
and I was born were it says snenton, but truthfully I,m just a bit of a scrag end, but I love it
-
all this information is on Sues site the Romany Jib, Sue Day and colleagues down the years have worked hard to help many people with lots or even small amounts of Gipsy history, Sue as done a lot for many many people over the years , if one person wants to say different out now and say it, she helped thousands of people, no thought they had to the many hours she gave freely, now she will be remembered ,
this is from her site,
tell me of if you want , on it goes
With all this in mind I have also looked at records for Nottingham because Samuel fox also says they liked to be here in the winter months
I am not saying its right family ,but just going by area and surnames
There are some early marriages :
Richard Smyth & Parown Boswell 1626 St Mary Nottingham * Smyth is old word for Smith *
John Gray & Ann Boswell 1671 Weston Nottingham
There is later baptism
Elizabeth Buckland............. 26th Feb 1668 Mansfield Nottingham - Laurence & Sarah Buckland
Marriages Nottingham
Lewis Boswell & Elizabeth Knowles ..........24th Sept 1774 St Mary Nottingham
Francis Smith & Mary Loveridge .............16th May 1791 Hayton Nottingham
William Boswell & Sarah Draper .............28th Nov 1803 Langar Barston Nottingham
Andford Boswell & Ann Herrin ...............14th May 1810 Misterston Nottingham
William Buckland married Catherine Ayre ....12th Oct 1823 Rempstone Nottingham
-------------------------------------
Baptisms
Charlotte Boswell...............bapt 11th March 1786 St Mary nottingham - Lewis & Mary
Felicia Boswell ................bapt 1780 West Leake Nottingham - no parents given
Charlotte Boswell.............. bapt 11th Mar 1786 St Mary Nottingham - Lewis & Elisabeth
Robert Boswell .................bapt 22nd June 1788 St Michael Bonnington Sutton Nottingham - Daniel & Sarah Wendrick
Rhoda Boswell..................bapt 4th Oct 1790 Packwood Warwick - George & Rhoda
James Boswell..................April 1799 Bunny Nottingham - Thomas & Phillis
Lazarus Boswell............... bapt 2nd July 1797 Ruddington Nottingham - Daniel & Sarah
Lazarus Boswell............... bapt 16th June 1801 Marnhm Nottingham - Vine & Lucy
Pheonix Boswell ...............bapt 21st July 1805 Headon Nottingham - Israel & Ciparania
Natheneel Boswell .............bapt 1807 Clarkborough Nottingham - Sarcy & Sarah
Snow Alley Boswell (F).........bapt 24th Feb 1807 Clifton Nottingham - Josiah & Hannah
Fascenti Boswell (M) ..........bapt 1808 Clarkboruogh Nottingham - Israel & Siberani
Caroline Boswell ..............bapt 22nd Nov 1813 Clarkborough Nottingham - Zechariah & Sarah
Matilda Boswell ...............bapt 26th Dec 1813 St Mary Nottingham - Tate ( Taiso ) & Sophia
Israel Boswell ................bapt 23rd Dec 1814 Clarborough Nottingham - died 19th Feb 1815 - Israel & Ann
Mary Ann Boswell...............bapt 26th Nov 1815 Rafrod Nottingham - Zecharias & Sarah
Nathan Boswell............... .bapt 4th April 1819 Headon Nottingham - Israel & Mary
Mordicai Boswell (M) ..........bapt 29th Oct 1820 Misterton Nottingham - Absolom & Mary
Joseph Boswell.................bapt 1st Mar 1821 Clarborough Nottingham - Zachary & Sarah
Uriah Boswell .................bapt 31st Dec 1826 Blyth Nottingham - Israel & Mary
Annementey Boswell (F) ........bapt 20th April 1828 Treswell Nottingham - Lazarus & Alice
William Boswell ...............bapt 25th Aug 1827 Retford Nottingham - Elijah & Charlotte
Asher Boswell ( M)......... ...bapt 17th Jan 1830 Babworth Nottingham -died 14th June 1830 - Lazarus & Harriet
Oakey Boswell (M) .............bapt 2nd Jan 1830 Sutton *** Nottingham - Elijah & Allice
Emanuel Boswell ...............bapt 3rd Feb 1830 clarkborough Nottingham - Felix & Trinity
Pheonix Boswell................bapt 16th Nov 1831 Newark upon Trent Nottingham - Pheonix & Fraynet
Annis Boswell (F) .............bapt 24th Dec 1832 East Markham Nottingham - Elijah & Charlotte
Rudolphus Boswell........ .....bapt 4th Dec 1836 Babworth Nottingham - mother Alice
Joseph Smith/Boswell ..........bapt 25th Dec 1837 Clarkborough Nottingham - Elijah & Charlotte Smith
Sarah Boswell..................bapt 16th Oct 1838 Laxton Nottingham - Zacharias & Santa_ Maria
Mordecai Boswell (M) ..........bapt 28th Feb 1849 Finnley Nottingham - Joseph & Elizabeth
Sarah Boswell..................bapt 23rd Feb 1851 Barton in Fabis Nottingham - Nelson & Jane
Evergreen Boswell .............bapt 13th July 1858 Kneesall Nottingham - William & Henrietta
-
Robert Mellors, Old Nottingham suburbs: then and now [Bulwell] (1914)
Workhouse. The Hospital, which is a part of the Basford Union Workhouse, is in Bulwell parish, being built in a field that belonged to the poor of Ruddington, and which was bought by the Board of Guardians, who however have nothing to do with the poor of Bulwell. From 26th March, 1899, Bulwell became part of the Parish of Nottingham for Poor Law purposes, with a reduction of one-third of the poor rates for five years. There are still three men and one woman in the old workhouse not transferred, for whom 5/10 per week each is paid.
-
W. T. Pike (editor), Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire at the Opening of the Twentieth Century; [and] Contemporary Biographies, (1901)
Spencer.—Charles James Spencer, 16, Hamilton Road, Sherwood Rise, Nottingham; son of the late Richard Birch Spencer, of Basford, Notts; born at Basford, near Nottingham, September 18th, 1848. Clerk to the Guardians of the Basford Union (containing forty-five parishes in Notts and Derbyshire); Superintendent Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages, and Returning Officer for the same area; Clerk to the School Attendance Committee (thirty parishes); Clerk to the Basford Rural District Council, containing thirty-five parishes; Clerk to the Codnor Rural District Council (administered by Basford); Clerk to the Arnold Urban District Council; Clerk to the Arnold Burial Board. Won 120 yards hurdle race at Manchester, in 1875, in the fastest time on record, viz.: 15¼ secs., and in July, 1875, finished a long list of successes in the athletic world during the previous five years by winning outright the Sheffield Football Club Challenge Cup (120 yards hurdle race) for the third year consecutively
-
Robert Mellors, Old Nottingham suburbs: then and now [Basford] (1914)
Basford Union. According to the report of the Charity Commissioners in 1839, there was in the parish of Bulwell a field of about ten acres in the occupation of the Basford United House of Industry, at a rental of £20 a year, which the parish of Ruddington had long enjoyed, hut of its origin nothing was known.
The Union was formed in 1836 for thirty-eight parishes in Notts, and five in Derbyshire, but the parishes of Basford, Bulwell and North Wilford were in 1899 removed from its operations, when the City of Nottingham was formed into one complete parish. Mr. J. D. Walker was chairman of the Board 1872-8, Mr. J. Widdowson 1879-81, Mr. E. G. Hanson 1882-99, Mr. W. J. Furse 1900-13.
The Workhouse stands partly in Basford, and partly in Bulwell parishes, and provides room for 418 persons. The system of classification is not adopted. There are 56 children in the house, and 54 are boarded out.
-
F. Hind, Duncan Gray, Walter Murby and Kenneth V. Bailey, Bulwell. Four essays towards a history of the manor and township (1946)
IV. THE SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC HISTORY OF BULWELL
by KENNETH V. BAILEY
In this, the fourth and concluding paper of the present series, I intend both to utilise the picture which has been built up in the course of the preceding lectures as a setting to the drama of recent history, and to attempt to show how various lines of development described in the making of this picture converge to create the community as we know it today.
It has, I think, become evident that Bulwell is historically a microcosm of those parts of the English Midlands which have been subjected to the hardest stresses of the industrial and social revolution of the past two hundred years. Such a generalisation needs and will receive modification, but that is the general import of our picture. This makes my task both easier and harder; easier because I am able to draw material from the history of towns which have undergone a similar development, and, again modifying conclusions drawn from such material in the light of known local facts, view the history of Bulwell as a part of the history of its proper economic area. The task is made harder because to present a study of social and economic history even in a microcosmic setting lies beyond the possible scope of a single paper.
I shall, then, confine myself to the transition of Bulwell from an agricultural community to a village of skilled workmen and from such a community to a mining and factory town and finally to a fully urbanised and pardy suburban area. I shall try to show how these changes in economic activity have forced upon the workers a paroxysm of social re-adjustment, and how the effects of that paroxysm, similarly, and on a larger scale, taking place in Nottingham have wrought a second and equally far-reaching change in the life of the Leen Valley communities.
The first lecture in this series made it plain how great a role the Leen and the geological structure of its valley have played in the shaping of Bulwell.
The rocks had for many centuries given Bulwell district economic activities supplementary to agriculture: the quarrying of building stone; lime-burning; and the smelting of iron stone. The river was harnessed to give power to its first industry. The forge mill, described in the late 17th century, housed ''weighty hammers, bigger than men can handle (which) knock or beat out long bars of iron when they are made red hot in that great forge or fire blown up by those mighty bellows". This forge appears, according to Deering, to have been operating as late as 1751, when "the iron manufacture is shifted from hence". But the innovations of the great textile machinery inventors of the mid-18th century were, through the instrumentality of Arkwright's genius, adaptable to water power. By 1794, there were six cotton mills working along the Leen between Papplewick and the Nither Forge. Some 70 acres were occupied as reservoirs and water courses. This activity was directed to preparing cotton thread for the weavers of Lancashire.
.
-
Meanwhile the exposed coal field to the west of the Leen, in the Erewash Valley, was the scene of the application of a new kind of power. The shortage of coal throughout Britain was necessitating deeper mining. Deeper mining demanded improved methods of shifting water. Watt's first steam engine had only a vertical motion and was used chiefly for drawing up water, but in the Leen Valley at the Papplewick Mill, the union of steam power and the spinning mule was first applied. James Watt, acting on an idea put forward by Robinson, the owner of the Leen Mills, had produced the vertical engine.
With the use of water and steam power, the factory system did not spring into being fully fledged. In the stocking industry, steam power was not utilised for another 60 years, but the cottage, from having a single stocking frame, often became a small scale factory in which the craftsman worked several frames, hired or his own, and in which his wife and children prepared the thread that he used. The knitting industry had grown up in Bulwell during the 18th century as a domestic activity of this kind. By the end of that century the prosperity of a considerable part of its 1,500 inhabitants was bound up with the manufacture of gloves and stockings. Wages were fairly high. The frame operatives were not particularly thrifty. A succeeding decade brought tragedy. Napoleon, triumphant on land, but defeated at sea, set out to crush Britain by economic sanctions. The Berlin decrees of 1806 he framed with the object that British trade might be "repelled by all Europe from the Sound to the Hellespont".
The effect was to accentuate wartime slumps and to disrupt British industry to such an extent that Napoleon came perilously near to succeeding in his aim. With export markets greatly curtailed, over-production and decreased wages were inevitable. Wartime change in fashions played its part in aggravating the difficulty, and there was no longer a market for such goods as the fashionable pantaloon made on the wide frames for export to France. The manufacturers thereupon adapted their machines to producing inferior goods for the home and American market. Material that could be produced on wide frames with a minimum of manual labour could be sold to master hosiers—the hated bagmen, who would cut up the material and make it up into stockings. This undercut the price of fully fashioned work and damaged the reputation that the stockinger had for fine craftsmanship. Such considerations as these were at the actual root of the Luddite operations locally. It is true that machine wrecking did take place in the lace trade, at Loughborough for example, because the workers believed the machines themselves to be displacing labour and causing unemployment. But to generalise this idea to cover the whole movement is to ignore the particular factors which were at work in the hosiery industry. Another very specific grievance of the stockingers was payment in "truck", i.e. in goods—which might even be a stocking-frame which the stockinger did not want. The hosiers of reputation were in agreement with the knitters. This is well evidenced in the press notices of the period. The Nottingham Review constantly published agreements to give the 1803 price, but putters-out of work always managed to circumvent the resolutions of the master middlemen. That is why we find that notices were put on machines. A typical one was, "This frame is making full fashioned hose at the full price—the old Derbyshire Price". A notice like this was a mark as effective, where the Luddites were at work, as was the Blood of the Lamb in averting from the Hebrews the wrath of the final plague.
-
For the rest, items such as this from the Nottingham Review were a common enough occurrence: "Four frames broken at Basford last night and their woodwork burnt. Five frames also destroyed the same evening at Bobbers Mill". Resistance was organised by some owners of frames. Hollingworth of Bulwell put on an armed guard and, in an attack, an Arnold frame-breaker named Westley was shot and killed. At his funeral, at Arnold, the Military, the Special Constabulary and the Riot Act between them barely served to keep the peace. There was no civil police force. The Berkshire Regiment and later the West Kent militia were quartered in Nottingham. Luddite feeling pervaded the food riots. Napoleon was getting his thrust well in.
Before turning our attention to the critical decades following the Napolonic Wars, let us see what repercussions these local disturbances were having in the national legislature. A Bill which attempted to prohibit "truck payment" and the production of cut-ups was thrown out of the Lords in 1812. What Parliament did do was to prosecute associations of workmen under the Combination Acts, to use Government spies to counteract secrecy, and to impose the death penalty for machine wrecking. It was during a debate on this last measure in 1812 that Byron made his famous maiden speech: "Such marchings and counter marchings! From Nottingham to Bulwell, from Bulwell to Basford, from Basford to Mansfield! And when at length the detachments arrived at their destination in all 'the pride, pomp, and circumstance of glorious war', they came just in time to witness the mischief which had been done and ascertain the escape of the perpetrators, to collect the spolia opima in the fragments of broken frames, and return to their quarters amidst the derision of old women and the hooting of children". Byron inveighed tellingly against tyrannical government. The frame-breakers, he said, were guilty of the capital crime of poverty. With the end of the war and the disbandment of Militia regiments, thousands more came into the cheap labour market. Those men who had often halfheartedly quelled the hunger riots went to swell the ranks of the rioters. This influx counteracted the effect of the increase in the output of hand-made goods which took place after 1815. The Corn Laws were another depressing factor. While keeping food dear to starvation point, they stifled the revival of continental markets. In 1819, the year of the tragedy of St. Peter's Fields, men were parading the streets of Nottingham carrying boards, "Pity our distresses. We ask for bread. Pity our children". The machinery for dealing with poverty of such huge and hopeless dimensions was entirely inadequate. The parish was the unit for the administering of relief. There had been no radical change in administration since 1601. The only major adjustment had been the application of the Speenhamland System which led, in rural England, to a complete confusion between wages and relief. In an industrial district such as Bulwell, what happened was that the overseers of the poor set themselves up as hosiers, which only added to the difficulty of the master hosiers in finding a market and paying prices that constituted a living wage. The Act of 1834 organised the country into Poor Law Unions and established the Board of Guardians. The grim lack of imagination and psychological intuition with which the Commissioners went to work counteracted the efficiency of many of their measures, in that the workers were solidly resistant. This Benthamite efficiency was aimed at preventing the exploitation of pauperism by local vested interests; but the abolition of outdoor relief, which was a reform in rural districts, meant to the unavoidably unemployed of the industrial districts either starvation or incarceration in a degrading prison designed on more or less intentionally penal lines. The mood which gripped the distressed workers was that voiced by the mob of the Reform Bill riots at Nottingham in 1831, who, when advised to disperse, said "What's the use of dispersing, we may as well die where we are as go home and be starved".
-
I have outlined at some length the English tragedy in the years following Waterloo because it is only in relation to that background that the local situation can be understood. In 1851, the population of Bulwell had risen by some 75% since the beginning of the century. Arnold was slightly larger. Throughout this phase of tile history of these two towns the interest of the frameworkers is practically identical. This is shown by their combination in many of the popular demonstrations of the period. The contemporary record of the plight of the Arnold frameworkers quoted by Dr. J. D. Chambers is well applicable to Bulwell. "The poor stocking maker", writes a correspondent of the Nottingham Mercury, "may possibly, by practising much forbearance during the prime of his life, be enabled to provide funds against the calamity of his own sickness, as numbers of them have done in this village; but since it is not possible that he can by the most unwearied industry accomplish the same benefit for his wife and family, he is continually exposed to the painful mortifications of being branded as a pauper and subjected to the workhouse test of destitution, notwithstanding he may be doing all that in him lies to keep himself, in his individual character, free from a dependency on the stinted bounty of a parish officer. The net average earnings of a sober, industrious, and good workman after toiling for 70 hours will not exceed 8s."
Nottinghamshire history resoures for local histories and genealogists
-
Robert Mellors, Men of Nottingham and Nottinghamshire (1924)
Nottinghamshire history resoures for local histories and genealogists
ABSALOM BARNETT, (1773-1850), of Nottingham, was a man who in his time played many parts, for to his ability was added character and energy, securing the confidence of all about him, while in conversation he always had the saving grace of humour. In early life he was connected with the hosiery trade, at New Basford and Carlton Street. He was actively engaged in religious work connected with Castle Gate Chapel, (1802), and afterwards with George Street Baptist Chapel, and in the latter, when the minister was ill or away, he frequently conducted the services with acceptance and satisfaction.
In 1825 he appears as Assistant Overseer of the parish of St. Mary, and he gave important evidence upon the working of the Poor Laws prior to the passing of the new Act which came into force in 1836, when the three parishes of the town were joined into one Union, with one workhouse instead of three, and Mr. William Vickers, Alderman, was elected first Chairman of the Board of Guardians, and Absalom Barnett first Clerk of the Guardians, Governor of the Workhouse, and later made Superintendent' Registrar. The old Workhouse was crowded before amalgamation, but the Workhouses of St. Peter's in Broad Marsh, and of St. Nicholas' on Gillyflower Hill, Castle Road, being closed, St. Mary's Workhouse became full to overflowing. The reports of the time state that there was hardly standing room; the result being the development of vice and disease; and the virtuous poor were huddled with the idle and dissolute. (Orange, p. 909). There was no room for enlargement of the premises, which were like a prison within doors and high walls. The Chairman and other Guardians, urged by the Workhouse Master, determined to have a new building in open land; the Town Council refused consent. No land could be bought, and there came, therefore, a battle royal between the two bodies, in which Barnett was the persistent spokesman. In desperation, the Guardians went and bought two fields on Sherwood Rise, at that time in the parish of Lenton, and in the county. Then came indignation at the cruelty of taking the poor across the wild forest to such a lonely spot as Sherwood Rise. So the Council gave way, and consented to lease to the Guardians all the land between York Street and Windsor Street, called St. Michael's Church-yard, being the site of the ancient church, destroyed possibly about 1327, and also including the site of the old Leper Hospital, of two hundred years earlier date. Schools and rooms for children were built first, and afterwards the Workhouse. The Chairman and Barnett bought the materials, and the latter acted as Architect and Clerk of the works, having a foreman, Thomas East. The cost for the accommodation of 1,150 people, Wylie gives as £17,500, other figures, (probably including later additions), state the cost as £25,312.
Barnett retained his offices to the end of his life. He was one of the promoters of the building of Derby Road Baptist Chapel, and, pending the appointment of a minister, he was chosen as Presiding Elder. He died seven days after the chapel was opened. (See Ward, Wylie and Orange).
-
Men of Nottingham and Nottinghamshire (1924)
JOHN SAMON, JOHN SAMON the younger, and RICHARD SAMON.
JOHN SAMON, (died 1416), must have been a good Mayor of Nottingham, for he served the office, first as Bailiff, then Mayor, four times, with twenty-six years between the first year of office (1381) and the last (1407). The family record was remarkable, for his father, JOHN SAMON, was Mayor five times between 1361 and 1378, and RICHARD SAMON, son of the junior John, was Mayor six times between 1418 and 1451. The elder John was a benefactor to the building of St Mary's new church. The son gave as a mortuary, or gift after death, to the church, his best horse with saddle and bridle, and also £10 to the fabric. (F. A. Wadsworth, in T.S.T's. 1917, pp. 47 and 50). The canopy of his tomb still stands in St. Mary's South transept, having been transferred from the old church which was razed four hundred years ago, but by a strange vandalism the altar tomb and effigy with the hands raised upon the breast in the attitude of prayer "was utterly destroyed this spring," so says Orange in 1840 (p. 516). John Samon further founded a chantry in St. Mary's church, and his son Richard increased the benefaction.
All the three Samons gave benefactions for the poor. The first gave three cottages in Cowe Lane (Clumber Street) for ''three poor men for ever."
A. S. Buxton, Selston church, Transactions of the Thoroton Society, vol XVI, 1912
The work of the 15th century is seen in the three-light east window and the whole of the tower. On the battlement, on the south side of the tower, are the letters J. and M.,— Jesus and Mary. Also, the letters T. S. with a shield, bearing a bend between a pierced mullet and an annulet. Mr. George Fellows is of opinion that these are the arms of the Samons. The Samons were at Annesley Woodhouse, and of the same family as John Samon, of Nottingham, who contributed to the building of St. Mary’s Church there.
These arms seem to indicate that a Samon helped in the building of Selston tower. The tower was supposed to have been built by an Annesley, as it was thought that the stone came from some Annesley quarry. This theory perhaps gives us the clue to the exact part played by the Samons, viz., that the stone was provided by a member of that family.
-
A parliamentary report of 1777 recorded parish workhouses in operation at Basford (for up to 44 inmates), Beeston (12), Bulwell and Hemshall (16), Bunney (8), and Greasley (30).
Basford was one of several poor law incorporations formed in Nottinghamshire prior to 1834 — others included Gedling (1787), Claypole (1817), East Retford (1818) Thurgarton (1824), Blyth, and Clarborough.
The Basford Incorporation was formed under the terms of Gilbert's Act of 1782 and initially comprised 24 parishes with a further 16 joining by 1834. Most of the member parishes were located in the Broxtowe Hundred and the main source of employment in the area were the lace and hosiery trades whose periodic depressions created widespread unemployment and hardship (Caplan, 1984). In 1815-16, an incorporation workhouse for 240 inmates was erected at on a 24-acre site in Basford at a cost of £8,500. Initially, the inmates made stockings but this seems to have been given up in favour of cultivating vegetables in the workhouse grounds with the surplus produce being sold in Nottingham. In bad weather, the men were employed in stone-breaking. Women were employed in domestic work, and girls were taught needlework. A day-school was also set up for the children.
In terms of its effects on reducing expenditure on the poor, the Basford workhouse seems to have been highly successful. The number of inmates declined between in the years up to 1834, even though the population had increased and trade had been bad. One member parish, Hucknall, which had paid £600 to join the incorporation, had recouped the cost of its subscription with two years. The operation of Basford workhouse may well have provided a model for the regimes later adopted at Southwell and Thurgarton.
-
After 1834
The Basford Incorporation was, in principle, immune from the strictures of the 1834 Act. However, its Guardians were persuaded that the Incorporation should be dissolved and replaced by a new Poor Law Union. The Basford Poor Law Union formally came into being on 2nd May 1836. Its operation was overseen by an elected Board of Guardians, 46 in number, representing its 43 constituent parishes as listed below (figures in brackets indicate numbers of Guardians if more than one):
County of Nottingham: Annesley and Felley, Arnold (2), Barton, Basford (2), Beeston, Bilborough, Bradmore, Bulwell, Bunny, Burton Joyce, Calverton, Carlton, Clifton with Glapton, Colwick, Cossall, Eastwood, Gedling, Gotham, Greasley (2), Hucknal Torkard, Kirkby in Ashfield, Lambley, Linby, Newstead, Nuthall, Papplewick, Ruddington, Selston, Stoke Bardolph, Strelley, Thrumpton, Trowell, West Bridgeford, Wilford, Wollaton, Woodborough.
County of Derby: Codnor-cum-Loscoe, Codnor Park, Heanor, Ilkestone (2), Shipley.
Later Additions: Awsworth (from 1894), Bestwood Park (from 1877), Brinsley (from 1896), Kimberley (from 1896), Standard Hill (1862-97).
The population falling within the Union at the 1831 census had been 51,794 — with parishes ranging in size from Bradmore (population 35) to Basford itself (6,325). The average annual poor-rate expenditure for the period 1833-35 had been £13,745 or 5s.4d. per head.
Early in its existence, the Basford Union Board of Guardians was in dispute with the Poor Law Commissioners. In 1837, a serious slump in the framework knitting industry had led to large increase in poor relief applications. The Basford workhouse, which the Union had taken over from the old incorporation, had a capacity of 250 inmates soon became full. The Guardians therefore decided to continue providing out-relief to unemployed able-bodied, contrary to the provisions of the 1834 Act. However, the Commissioners stood firm and threatened that the Guardians would be personally liable for paying the costs of such relief. The Commissioners were also unhappy about a public subscription relief fund that had been started in Nottingham to which the Chairman of the Basford Guardians donated £100. The solution proposed by the Commissioners was to enlarge the workhouse to a point that would cope with all those whose distress was sufficient for them to seek admission.
The dispute dragged on unresolved for several years, with one Assistant Commissioner reporting that he had never been connected with a Union so difficult to manage as Basford. The Commissioners gradually made concessions in the distribution of out-relief, particularly in the winter. A labour test — the providing of relief only in return for the performing of work — was also sanctioned. However, the pressure for the Union to enlarge its workhouse was also continued. In 1840, an outbreak of smallpox in the workhouse resulted in an eminent Nottingham physician recommending the provision of separate accommodation for the sick. Eventually, despite the prevarications of the Guardians, the extension work took place and was completed in March 1843 at a cost of £2,000.
That was still not the end of the union's difficulties. In 1844, the Nottingham Review printed allegations of incompetence and corruption at the workhouse. Although proved to be unfounded, and probably the work of Chartist opponents of the New Poor Law, these accusations generated much bad publicity for the union. A much exaggerated version was even included by Engels in his 1845 work Conditions of the Working Class in England:
The Workhouse story of an institution web site
The story of an institution
-
Public Healthcare in Nottingham 1750 to 1911
by
Ennis C. Bosworth, B. A.
Thesis submitted to the University of Nottingham for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy, May 1998
I think this is maybe the old Nottingham union hospital that went on to become or already was the general one, google that name above and theres some writing of the very hard times of the 1800s
I wrote about these things becourse I wanted to understand the worled in the time of great hardship as wrote by Rich below
The confusion of Dan with Louis can be dated back at least to 1838 when Dan's widow Sarah died. She is recorded as Sarah Boswell, buried at St Mary's, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, on 1st May 1838. Age given as 93. The reports confuse her husbands death and burial at Selston in 1827, with that of her probable son Louis at Eastwood in 1835:
‘Norfolk Chronicle 19th May 1838 - Mrs. Sarah Boswell, aged 93. Queen of the Gipsies. This is another of the illustrious of the Gipsy tribe, who is gone to that bourne whence no traveller returns. Though living as a Gipsy all her life, she has far outgone the common age for mortals; but this, perhaps, may be accounted for by the fact she was a Queen. Her marriage lines, which were seen at the workhouse, indisputably proved that she was married to the great Boswell, The King of the Gipsies, 72 years since. The King died at the gipsy-camp, at Eastwood Park, in 1835, and was interred in Eastwood Church-yard. His Queen was soon after chargeable to Selstone parish, and was sent to Basford Union workhouse, from which she came out in March last, and was received into Nottingham Union Hospital, where she was placed under suspended orders, on account of severe illness.’
-
Southwell and Nottingham church history project
Eastwood
St Mary
History
No church is mentioned at Eastwood in Domesday Book, and the first evidence of a church in the village is from 1271. The only surviving physical depiction of this building is in a tapestry map of 1632, now in the Victoria and Albert Museum, London. The accuracy of this depiction is uncertain. Pieces of stone from the building can still be seen as a part of a wall near to the modern church. It was not until 19 October 1286 that there is a record of a rector being ordained to the living. According to the Register of Archbishop John Le Romeyne of York, Adam de Markham, deacon, was inducted to the church at Estwayt [Eastwood] on that date.
A Glebe Terrier of 15 July 1714, prepared by Peter Lalouel vividly describes the parsonage as well as the Glebe Lands and tithes. ‘The dwelling house is thirteen yards long, five yards and above two feet broad, having a porch on ye west side and on ye east a little building which is four yards and a half long. A barn with a stable in it.’ The terrier continues to describe the Glebe lands in detail, and the map of the manor of that year distinctly illustrates the church with a nave and low embattled tower.
By 1759 the building was dilapidated, partly due to neglect and partly as a result of subsidence. The body of the church and the tower (with steeple) were condemned, and a brief issued at Nottingham Quarter Sessions to seek financial support from around the country to erect a new church.
As a result of fund raising, a new, brick-built church was erected in 1764, with a low tower, on the site of the previous building. It contained a single bell, dated 1713, which probably came from the first church, and was re-hung in St James’, Codnor, Derbyshire, in 1856, where it still survives. The new church served a community of about sixty families at that time. Depictions of the building suggest it was a simple nave and chancel, probably much the same size as the medieval building. An extract from the Glebe Terrier of 1764 notes that ‘Our Church is at this time rebuilding by the charity of a Brief and the Chancel by our Rector, both with brick’. Throsby wrote in 1797 that ‘It is mostly of brick and stands on an eminence. It has a tower, and is neat within.’
According to the Glebe Terrier of 1764, Maurice Pugh built the chancel of the new brick church at his own expense - as required of the rector - and built and thatched the outbuildings at the Parsonage. This Terrier also mentions that included in the inventory was a “Flaggon, Bason, and Chllice” [chalice] all in pewter. Eight years later, the pewter sacramental vessels were replaced by a silver Chalice, described as a beaker shaped bowl with a curved lip and base, on a tall spool shaped stem with a narrow knot and domed foot. It was inscribed 1772, John Wood, Rob’t Granger, Churchwardens.
The church was enlarged in 1826 to accommodate 380 people. As a result, according to the Post Office Directory of 1848 ‘The church, dedicated to St Mary, is a brick building with a low tower and one bell, and is in good repair’.
Rich wrote about this,
Lewis' son Frampton Boswell, age 20 was also buried at St Mary's, Eastwood, Nottinghamshire, ten months after his father on 28th December 1835.
-
when you read things about someone's life, and death,
you may form an opinion,
but how can you form an opinion if you don't know of there life,
if you never lived there life,
there's an old saying first you must walk in another's shoes
before you may wish to know them
life was bad going in the 1800s round these parts, looked rough in the 1700 and 1600s,
all them bad wars in the 1900s, I bet that's why in the 1800s people were thinking of America,
just imagine how bad life must of been in Europe and beyond,
I'm glad I live in this day
I remember Elik talking of the hard times of long ago up Scotland, he said Michael you hear thing what romance people say or write about through history, but I know of Gipsy Women going home after hawking and manys the time they would have there baskets turned out and over of things and food they had got that day, and the wind would blow cold and strong, a rugged environment,
he telled me true of times like these, I believe him to,
-
Morley Parish Council web site
A History of the Parish of Morley Derbyshire
Chapter 11
THE REVEREND SAMUEL FOX M.A.
The Reverend Samuel Fox M.A. who was born on 11th February 1801 and died 7th September 1870 was the son of Edward Fox of Derby. He started his education at Derby School and his name and date of 1816 is one of hundreds to be found carved on the walls and panels of the old school building in St. Peter's Churchyard.
In October 1821 he proceeded to Pembroke College, Oxford, where apparently his career was not crowned with the kind of distinction that usually falls to the lot of studious and scho¬larly men - indeed there is no mention of him in any university class list. He left in 1825 and three years later became an M.A. having in the meantime prepared himself for ordination and probably taken Holy Orders. In 1829 he accepted the curacy at Morley and married in the 1830s, succeeding to the livings of Morley and Smalley in 1844.
He is described as one of the most learned Anglo-Saxon scholars of the day, and wrote many books on the subject, and his achievements led in due course to his election as a Fellow of the Society of Antiquaries, and secured for him the esteem and friendship of the pioneer of Anglo-Saxon study in England, Dr. J. Bosworth, (also a Derbyshire man) being born at Etwall and edu¬cated in the neighbouring village of Repton.
He had a lifelong interest in gypsies, al¬though his published works apparently contain no hint of this, but he did not seriously continue his gypsy studies after about 1840.
Several years after his death two notebooks were discovered among his literary remains, con¬taining Romani vocabularies set out side by side with Bryant's Glossary for 1785. These were pre¬served by his daughter Miss Anna Fox.
The earlier notebook is entitled "A vocabulary of the Zingara or Gypsey Language" - the second and lar¬ger one bears the same title but has several additions, including a preface and a shorter list of Romani equivalents taken from 'Viney' Boswell at Smalley. The preface with which the larger of the two notebooks begins reveals that the Smalley vocabulary 'was commenced in consequence of an encampment being made near the village of Smalley in the winter of 1832-3. The writer of these remarks we are told, frequently visited them (the gypsies) and sat with them round their Everlasting fire - they were remarkably well conducted and three or four females and as many men attended divine worship at Smalley Chapel'. The name of the tribe was Boswell and the head of it, one Lawrence was looked upon as King of the Gypsies but the family themselves laughed at the idea, and asserted that no gypsy tribe lay claim to the distinction of Royalty. However the Derby Mercury records Lawrence Boswell's death and 'as proof that he was of some consequence among the fraternity, many tribes of gypsies from distant quarters assembled to bid him a last farewell'. The words recorded from Vaini (Viney) Boswell by Samuel Fox were obtained af¬ter the preface to the second notebook had been written and it is thought that the most likely date is 1839 for on April 7th of that year Samuel Fox baptised at Smalley, Cornelius grand¬son of Vaini Boswell.
Miss Fox recalls that the Boswells used to camp in a lane near Morley in the late 1840s or early 1850s, and she was often taken by her father when a child to see them. There were two brothers, Moses and Aaron Boswell, but it was Moses and his family who came to Morley most frequently. As a parish priest Samuel Fox was conscien¬tious and thoroughly capable, whilst his kind¬ness, graciousness and sensibility, and his occasional'gleams of humour' must have made his tall, slightly stooping figure a welcome sight to most of his parishioners.
He rendered a lasting service to Morley by undertaking a much needed restoration of its an¬cient and interesting church, a work very near to his heart, for he was a close student of ec¬clesiastical architecture, though he never wrote on it save for his "History of Morley" which was published in 1872 two years after his death.
His obituary in the Derby Mercury states that 'his death was sudden, for he had previous¬ly been in full intellectual vigour. Only a few weeks earlier he had spent a short time at Oxford with his old friend, Professor Bosworth, examining the manuscript stores of the Bodleian Library for facts relating to the "History of Morley" which he had prepared for the press'.
He is buried at Morley and there is a bronze plaque to his memory in the church.
The above information has been gathered from various sources:-
The Derby School Register, The Derby Mercury and particularly "Samuel Fox and the Derbyshire Boswells" by T.W. Thompson, extracted from the Journals of the Gypsy Lore Society.
-
The name of the tribe was Boswell and the head of it, one Lawrence was looked upon as King of the Gypsies but the family themselves laughed at the idea, and asserted that no gypsy tribe lay claim to the distinction of Royalty. However the Derby Mercury records Lawrence Boswell's death and 'as proof that he was of some consequence among the fraternity, many tribes of gypsies from distant quarters assembled to bid him a last farewell'. The words recorded from Vaini (Viney) Boswell
I think this is Linda's Family, if I'm wrong , no harm , do you hear the talk as well, that's just not Gipsy talk , its Romany Gipsy talk, and if it is Linda's Family , they don't just come from Europe , they came all the way from well I don't know south Asia I think,
all I,v to do now is get the photos for Dan and that's me done,
-
Interesting posts as ever Michael, gives good background to the area, which I must admit I'm not all too familiar with. In a round about way it has also solved a puzzle for me. I have this baptism: Arnold Boswell, son of Valentine Boswell ‘An Ejiptian’ baptised at Widmerpool, Nottinghamshire on 30th December 1791. I've not seen Arnold used anywhere amongst Romany Gypsies elsewhere...I reckon he was probably born in the parish of Arnold then. I didn't realise there was a parish by that name in Nottinghamshire!
Thanks for the support with the books Michael. It is looking positive that they would like to print them. So no need for a petition, though I do make a mean cup of tea! My Boswell book starts at 1650 and stops at 1810. After that date alot of work has already been done. Life was definitely very hard for them in that early time. I mean it technically still carried a death sentence just to be a Gypsy until the 1780's. Apart from the parish records, most of the other sources come from arrest records or newspaper reports ...so we are left with a skewed and one sided account of their lives, but that's all we have to work with really, the other side of the story is for the most part missing. I do hope the book will help Boswell family researchers...it covers other families too particularly Lovells, Blewitts, Scamps, Smiths and Hearns.
My brother's wife grew up travelling and door to door calling with her mother. Settled into houses in the 80's. When their children were small and his business was hard, 1990's, she would always make up the artificial flowers and ribbons for girls hair like she had been taught as girl and go out and earn them enough money to get by..though she didn't knock the doors then, she would set up a stall on a high street or go round car boots, markets, schools with them. A lot of respect for those old ways..taught self dependance and industry. They havn't dissappeared entirely!
-
Life was definitely very hard for them in that early time. I mean it technically still carried a death sentence just to be a Gypsy until the 1780's. Apart from the parish records, most of the other sources come from arrest records or newspaper reports ...so we are left with a skewed and one sided account of their lives, but that's all we have to work with really, the other side of the story is for the most part missing. I do hope the book will help Boswell family researchers...
yes Rich , do you meen the truth is missing, yes the Boswells were in trouble with the law , so what , did not no ever tell you or them desendants that the Boswells was of the High Gipsy,
and yes you understand my humor, and yes them society people will give you a voice, they would stand as shamed for a thousand yeares if they had thought not, but still I see they have a good mind and soul, fair not the brave Boswells, there was manys the Gipsys who also fell foul of the law, don't forget Europe was long forgotton, this is England , brothers in arms, you new your own , people now just read , think they know, I will never go against the Gipsy , I would kill my self first, before my name , before my thoughts , the Gipsy comes first, there are no names, there is no first, there is only the Gipsy with people who merrr ,
-
Sheffield Daily Telegraph South Yorkshire, England
17 Aug 1875
WEST RIDING INTERMEDIATE SISSIONS
renthorpe, on the 9th August, 1875. —Eighteen months' hard labour. William Wilsher, the elder (on bail), 60, gipsy William Wilsher, the younger (on bail), gipsy Edward Wilsher, 21, gipsy; James winter (on bail), 21, gipsy, were charged
-
Sheffield Independent South Yorkshire, England
30 Nov 1850
-Wagusterial ProcwMnaa
told him to get what money he could for it. Com- mitted for trial. Murderous Affray in Westgate. — Three gipsies, named Wm.Wilshaw, sen., Wm. Wilshaw, jun., and John Winter, were charged with an assault and riot, in Westgate, on Monday evening. It appeared
-
Sheffield Independent South Yorkshire, England
15 Feb 1902
SHEFFIELD LOCAL NEWS
was sentenced to four months’ hard labour. WAKEFIELD DISTRICT. telling servant girls their fortunes. GIPSY FINED WAKEFIELD, Medina Lovell, a young gipsy, was at ■kefield yesterday with pretending tell fortunes palmistry, with intent to deceive and impose
-
Sheffield Daily Telegraph South Yorkshire, England
12 Feb 1896
NOTTINGHAMSHIRE
ALLEGED MANSLAUGHTER AT MANSFIELD. At the Mansfield Police Court yesterday, before the ex-Mayor (Aid. R. Alcock). Joseph Wiltshire, gipsy, was committed to take his trial the Notts Assizes a charge manslaughter, the name of the deceased man being Henry Troop
View article Type: Article
Sheffield Daily Telegraph
Sheffield Daily Telegraph South Yorkshire, England
7 Feb 1896
NOTTINGHAMSHIRE
Henry Troop, a gipsy, who was severely kicked, alleged, by Joseph Wiltshire, another gipsy, according to the testimony of Dr. Philip G. Godfrey given before Mansfieid Bench. yefcfcerdsy, sinking, and cannot last many hours. Wiltshire who was brought
View article Type: Article
Sheffield Daily Telegraph
Sheffield Daily Telegraph South Yorkshire, England
25 Sep 1902
THE ACQUISITION OF BOSTON PARK, ROTHERHAM
greengrocer, Worksop, on September 16—Mr. John Appleton appeared for the prosecution.—In this case another man named William Wiltshire, gipsy, was charged jointly with Williams with being concerned in the theft, and was remanded on bail last week, but has since
View article Type: Article
Sheffield Independent
Sheffield Independent South Yorkshire, England
31 Jan 1896
BARNSLEY AND DISTRICT
advantages of the .society, as did also Miss Hislam. ALLEGED SERIOUS ASSAULT AT MANSFH3LD. At Mansfield, yesterday, Joseph Wiltshire, a gipsy, surrendered to his bail on a charge of having grievous- ly assaulted Henry Troop, on the night of the 19th inst— Dr
View article Type: Article
Sheffield Evening Telegraph
Sheffield Evening Telegraph South Yorkshire, England
8 May 1914
Sheffield Daily Telegraph South Yorkshire, England
8 Feb 1896
NOTTINGHAMSHIRE
THE ALLEGED ASSAULT ON A GIPSY. DEATH HOSPITAL. The gipsy, Henry Troop, alleged to l aye been seriously assaulted Joseph Wiltshire, died early yesterday in tho Mansfield Hospital, where he had undergone an operation. Wiltshire in custody. GREASLEY SCHOOL
View article Type: Article
-
Sheffield Daily Telegraph South Yorkshire, England
11 Jul 1871
ROTHERHAM POLICE COURT
who had been very ill ever since.—The defendant was fined and costs. Gipsies Fined fob Stealing Underwood at Wektwoeth —Joseph Wilsher and Joseph Wilsher. uncle and nephew, gipsies, were charged with stealing six bundles of underwood,
-
yes the wilshers wilshaws witl shaws wiltshires wilshires and winters to,
the wild ones ,
those old scholars would have had there tongues nailed to the nearest tree , there boots stole and worn the same day,
who knows the the Gipsy, not me but I have great love, for what I know,
I could put twenty more writings on of Gipsys, no need , of course the Boswells was in trouble with the law, times was hard , who will speak for the Gipsys,
alls good, I will tell you a few more Gipsy truths another day ,
let the rest lie and pretend,
-
Arnold yes Rich , that sounds could be right ,
let me tell you some truths , Nottingham on the south side its were the Boswells of old seem to have come first, that's just what I see from the records that you and others show,
fair does not bothered am I , but I want to help you, Arnold eastwood selston hucknall all them derby places seam later and there of the north of Nottingham, right this is the truth , places like bunny and kegworth and more are south they were never industerlised by the revolution of time in there time , the southern villages of notts were left as they were hundreds of yeares before, you may find true answers easier there , the northern , out villagers like eastwood and Arnold, hucknall, Basford and such were swallowed up in to the metropolises of Nottingham, selston not, good old Dan , I know he's waiting for some one, who , I don't know , I never asked, mybe I will
-
Sheffield Evening Telegraph South Yorkshire, England
7 May 1920
THE SHEFFIELD HOLD-UP. Closing Stage of Post Office Scene at Leeds Assizes.
SECRETARY'S TRIUMPH. the three Sheffield men, James Wilsher, hawker, Albert Jackson, 28. crucible pot maker, and John Johnson. 26, hawker, accused in connection with the hold-up
-
Wilshaw Emily 28 Sheffield Sheffield South 4689 114
Wilshaw John 3 Sheffield Sheffield South 4689 114
Wilshaw Thomas 1 Sheffield Sheffield South 4689 114
Wilshaw Thomas 25 Sheffield Sheffield South 4685 17
Wilshaw Joseph 48 Sheffield Sheffield South 4685 35
Wilshaw Sarah 11 Sheffield Sheffield South 4685 35
Wilshaw John 32 Sheffield Sheffield South 4684 140
Wilshaw Isaac 17 Ecclesall Bierlow Ecclesall Bierlow 4672 161
Wilshaw Sarah A 32 Ecclesall Bierlow Ecclesall Bierlow 4671 55
Wilshaw ? Jos 34 Ecclesall Bierlow Ecclesall Bierlow 4668 81
Wilshaw ? Jane 36 Ecclesall Bierlow Ecclesall Bierlow 4668 81
Wilshaw ? Mary A 13 Ecclesall Bierlow Ecclesall Bierlow 4668 81
Wilshaw ? Fred W 11 Ecclesall Bierlow Ecclesall Bierlow 4668 81
Wilshaw ? Sarah J 9 Ecclesall Bierlow Ecclesall Bierlow 4668 81
Wilshaw ? Isaac 5 Ecclesall Bierlow Ecclesall Bierlow 4668 81
Wilshaw ? James 3 Ecclesall Bierlow Ecclesall Bierlow 4668 81
Wilshaw ? Jos 10m Ecclesall Bierlow Ecclesall Bierlow 4668 81
Wilsher Henry 36 Sheffield Attercliffe 4669 147
Wilsher Mary A 34 Sheffield Attercliffe 4669 147
Wilsher Frederick 17 Sheffield Attercliffe 4669 147
Wilsher John 7 Sheffield Attercliffe 4669 147
Wilsher Joseph 4 Sheffield Attercliffe 4669 147
Wilsher Henry 1 Sheffield Attercliffe 4669 147
Wilsher Thomas 34 Sheffield Attercliffe 4669 147
Wilsher Eliza 33 Sheffield Attercliffe 4669 147
Wilsher Le--e 12 Sheffield Attercliffe 4669 147
Wilsher Liddy 11 Sheffield Attercliffe 4669 147
Wilsher Betsey 8 Sheffield Attercliffe 4669 147
Surname Fore Name Age Registration
district Sub District Piece number
RG10/ Folio Number
Wilsher Thomas 7 Sheffield Attercliffe 4669 147
Wilsher Mary 6 Sheffield Attercliffe 4669 147
Wilsher William 1 Sheffield Attercliffe
-
1861*Barlborough County: Nottinghamshire
Wisdom Smith ...........................51 Woolsthorp Lincs
Hannah Smith........................... 50 Boston Linc
Semilla? Smith..........................24 (dau) Ragdon Lincs
Rudolfa Smith ..........................21 (son) Corringham Lincs
William Smith...........................20 Lind? Comma Yorkshire
Sarah Smith.............................18 Willoton Lincs
Eldan Smith .............................9 Dundham Lincs
//
Tebitha Smith Wid........................ 35 Besom maker Casterton Lincs
Diniah Smith..............................11 Wiston Yorkshire
Isiah Smith ...............................9 Osington Notts
Wisdom Smith...............................5 Bottomsall Notts
Nancy Smith ...............................5 Howton Parnell Yorkshire
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1881* CENSUS* Abbey Street Worksop Notts
Israel Smith ...........................30 Chair Bottomer, Willow 20/2 Stattin Leics
Sarah Smith............................ 38 Church Anston York
John Smith.............................. 6 Scholar Mansfield, Notts
Abigail Smith............................6mo Worksop Notts
Hannah Smith........................... 63 mother Boston Lincs
Elderi Smith............................24 dau Welton Lincs
Wisdom Smith........................... .2 son Retford Lincs
//
Street Address*Abbey Street Worksop Nottingham .
Rudolfa Smith........................... 30 head/Hawker b Willoughton, Lincs
Mary A Smith............................ 27 Newark,b Notts
Edward Smith ............................10 Scholar b Thorpe Salvin Yorkshire
William Smith.............................8 Scholar b Bothamsall, Notts
Mary A Smith .............................6 Scholar b Bolsover Derby
Drucella Smith............................4 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Rudolfa Smith.............................1 b Chesterfield, Derby
Thomas Wilsher....................... 22 Hawker born Sheffield, Yorkshire Cousin
Hannah Wilsher....................... 23 Hawker born Thorne, Yorkshire
Mary A Wilsher........................ 10-months born Mansfield, Nott
-
1911* CARAVANS & TENTS :- Dangerfield Lane near Wednesbury Staffs
WILLIAM WILSHER 70 HAWKER B DONCASTER YORK
ANNIE WIFE 69 MARRIED 49 YEARS HAWKER B DONCASTER YORK
JAMES WILSHER SON 20 HAWKER BORN Sheffield York
RG number:RG14Piece:17349 Reference:
RG14PN17349 RG78PN1063 RD371 SD5 ED21 SN75
Registration District:West Bromwich
Sub District: Wednesbury Enumeration District:21 Parish:Wednesbury
//
SMITH, Comelius Head Married M 45 B 1866 Hawker General Middlesex Town Unknown
Jane Wife Married 20 years F 35 B 1876 Middlesex Town Unknown
Edward Son Single 19 B 1892 Hawker Assist Middlesex Town Unknown
Daniel Son Single 17 B 1894 Hawker Assist Middlesex Town Unknown
Comelius Son So 15 B 1896 Hawker Assist Middlesex Town Unknown
Marilen Daughter 13 B 1898 Middlesex Town Unknown
Henry Son 5 B 1906 Middlesex Town Unknown
Charles Son 5 B 1906 Middlesex Town Unknown
John 2 B 1909 Stafford Wesby
//
WINTER, William Head Married M 28 1883 Licensed Hawkers Pontypridd Glamorgan
WINTER, Benty Wife Married 7 years F 27 1884 Kingswinford Staffs
WINTER, William Son M 7 1904 Darlaston Staffs
WINTER, Volet Daughter F 5 1906 Darlaston Staffs
WINTER, Rachell Daughter F 2 1909 Oldbury Worcester
-
Wiltshire John 1690 4 Jan Baptism John A traveller West Horsley, Surrey
Wiltshire William 1755 15 Feb Burial
Wiltshire James 1831 20 Mar Baptism William and Zilpha aged 18 months Mellor, Derbyshire
-
1911* Address 3 H 1 COURT BARD ST PARK SHEFFIELD YORKSHIRE WILSHER WILLIAM HEAD MARRIED 35 PEDLAR SALESMAN B YORKSHIRE
WILSHER MARIA WIFE MARRIED 34 PEDLAR SALESMAN B CORN IN HULL YRKS
WILSHER REBECCA DAUGHTER 14 B SHEFFIELD YORKSHIRE
WILSHER WILLIAM SON 12 SCHOOL B SHEFFIELD YORKSHIRE
~~~~~~~~-----------------------------------------
-
People not in houses*
1861*Pontefract, Yorkshire
William Willshaw abt 1811 Longbillington, Nottinghamshire, Head Tinner & Brazier
Lidia Willshaw abt 1812 Codbrough, Nottinghamshire, Wife
Joseph Willshaw abt 1846 Darrington, Yorkshire Son
Lidia Willshaw abt 1848 Lincoln, Lincolnshire Daughter
//
Walter Nelson abt 1829 Scotland Son-in-Law
Lotis Nelson abt 1829 Stowe, Lincolnshire, Daughter
Henry Nelson abt 1853 Wakefield, Yorkshire, Grandson
George Nelson abt 1854 Wakefield, Yorkshire, Grandson
Harriet Nelson abt 1856 Carlton, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
Mary Nelson abt 1858 Pontefract, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
//
William Blewitt abt 1809 widow Stamford, Lincolnshire, Head tinner & Brazier
Sarah Blewitt abt 1837 widow London, Middlesex, Daughter-in-Law
Valuza Blewitt abt 1856 York, Yorkshire, England Granddaughter
Enis Blewitt abt 1860 Hull, Yorkshire, England
//
John Lee abt 1797 Woodbridge, Suffolk, Head
Charlott Lee abt 1791 Woodbridge, Suffolk, Wife
Tenna Lee abt 1834 Livingston, Norfolk, Daughter
Mary Boss abt 1791 Farnham, Suffolk, Widow
John Phillips abt 1832 Thorne, Yorkshire Tinner & Brazier
Phyliss Blewitt wed Anselo and Daniel Bosswell its gets complicated as Swales come into and the Boylings , plus more than one partner and also used aliases ! its a minefield:)
-
Same - 1901 - Nottingham Nottinghamshire, 11 Smiths Field, Van.
Joseph Wilshire, h, m, 1864, Hawker, Shiffield Yorkshire.
Elizabeth, wife, 1863, Sheffield Yorkshire.
Joseph, son, 1883, Hawker, Sheffield Yorkshire.
Henry, son, 1885, Hawker, Chesterfield Derbyshire.
Mary, dau, 1894, Burton on Trent.
Sarah, dau, 1901, Nottingham.
-----
Same - 1901 - Nottingham Nottinghamshire, 11 Smiths Field, Van.
Fred Wilshire, h, m, 1871, Hawker, Attercliffe Yorshire.
Annie, wife, 1871, Sheffield Yorkshire.
Angerina!, dau, 1891, Sheffield Yorkshire.
Fred, son, 1894, Sheffield Yorkshire.
-
Same - 1901 - Pleasley Nottinghamshire, Main Street, Shirebrook, derby Nott's!, Van.
Thomas Wiltshaw, h, m, 1864, Hawker, Sheffield Yorkshire.
Margaret, wife, 1871, Hartlepool Yorkshire.
Averhilda, dau, 1890, Sheffield Yorkshire.
Harriett, dau, 1891, Sheffield Yorkshire.
Thomas, son, 1894, Sheffield Yorkshire.
Margaret, dau, 1896, Sheffield Yorkshire.
Julia, dau, 1899, Sheffield Yorkshire.
Emma, dau, 1901, Sheffield Yorkshire.
-------
Same - 1901 - Pleasley Nottinghamshire, Main Street, Shirebrook, derby Nott's!, Van.
William Wiltshaw, h, m, 1880, Hawker, Woodsths! Derbyshire.
Maria R, wife, 1861, Hull Yorkshire.
Rebecca, dau, 1897, Sheffield Yorkshire.
William, son, 1899, Nottinghamshire.
-------
Same - 1901 - Pleasley Nottinghamshire, Main Street, Shirebrook, derby Nott's!, Van.
Joseph Wiltshaw, h, m, 1845, Hawker, Warrington Yorkshire.
Maria K, wife, 1844, Bolsover Derbyshire.
Emma, dau, 1883, Woodsetts! Derbyshire.
Henry, son, 1885, Woodsetts! Derbyshire.
-
1911* Address 3 H 1 COURT BARD ST PARK SHEFFIELD YORKSHIRE WILSHER WILLIAM HEAD MARRIED 35 PEDLAR SALESMAN B YORKSHIRE
WILSHER MARIA WIFE MARRIED 34 PEDLAR SALESMAN B CORN IN HULL YRKS
WILSHER REBECCA DAUGHTER 14 B SHEFFIELD YORKSHIRE
WILSHER WILLIAM SON 12 SCHOOL B SHEFFIELD YORKSHIRE
-
Gipsy family get green light for caravan
By This is Nottingham | Posted: December 29, 2008
A GIPSY family has been given permission to use a field at Sutton Bonington as a small caravan site.
John Wilsher and wife Margaret own the Landcroft Lane land, previously a paddock.
They live there with their two children, Linda, five, and Michael, one, in a caravan. They also have another one for touring.
Before moving on in September they were stopping on car parks and on wasteland.
The family plan to build a utility building for toilets, sinks and a bath. This cannot be done until materials have been approved by Rushcliffe Borough Council.
The council received 16 letters of objection from residents worried it could lead to a large permanent gipsy community. Three letters supporting the application were also received.
Only two caravans are allowed on the land, and only gipsies and travellers can use it. Permission is for three years.
-
Couldn't resist having a look at the Gregory family you mentioned, and saw that son Henry appeared to marry a Letty/Letitia/Lettice Wiltshire. This in turn led me to look at the Wiltshire/Wilsher families, and I think I have found out that Richard Smiths wife, Mary, was a Wiltshire.
I misread the 1871 census in regards to their ages. On looking again, their ages seem to be 72 and 62, which puts Mary's birth at c.1809.
Now the age is slightly out, but a Joseph and Lydia Wilsher had a daughter Mary Ann baptised at Normanton on Trent 15th Sep 1816. Then there is a baptism on freereg for Lydia d/o Joseph and Lydia Wiltshire of Saint Ann's St., tin man, Nottingham St. Mary, 22nd Jan 1837. This Lydia would fit agewise with the widowed Lydia Elliott who is with Richard and Mary on the 1871 census and make her sister to Mary.
Also there is a baptism at Saxilby in 1821 of Thomas s/o Joseph and Liddy Wiltsher and 1813 at Swineshead, Lincs, of Joseph s/o Joseph and Lydia Wilshaw. Joseph marries a Sarah and is in and around Newark and manages to appear on the 1861 census twice, at both Newark and New Sleaford Lincs.
-
Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer West Yorkshire, England
17 Aug 1928
50-MILE SWIM
Gipsy's Fraud on Crippled Scunthorpe Woman. Selina wilshaw, a gipsy, of Salter’s A'ard, AVakeiield, was lined £l5 Scun- Hiorpc yesterday for obtaining 2s. by false
-
York Herald North Yorkshire, England
17 Aug 1875
WEST RIDING AILD?SCMM£R INXEBME-.■ DIATE SESSIONS
at Knarwborough, on the 18th Jnne, was sentenced to 18 months' hard labour. . William Wilsher. sen., William Wilsher, jun., Edward Wilsher, and James Winter, gipsies, for in- flicting grievous bodily barm upon Michael Pearse, at Bray ton, near Selby
-
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottingham Evening Post Nottinghamshire, England
13 Feb 1926
GIPSIES' AFFRAY ECHO
and firearms were discharged, William Wilshire and another man named Harry Wilshire, said to be his father, being wounded. Immediately after the shooting prisoner disappeared, and had been large since. William Wilshire, who said ho was also known name of
-
Nottingham Evening Post Nottinghamshire, England
10 Mar 1883
TO-DAY'S POLICE NEWS
convicted.—llezekial burton, for having been drunk and disorderly the Motlege last night, was lined ss. aid costs Wilshire, for similar offence, was fined and costs. , Suspicion.—George Brown was charged suspicion with stealing two pairs of boots
-
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
4 Mar 1904
BLACKPOOL'S GIPSY QUEEN DEAD. Sarah Boswell, tho Blackpool gipsy just passed away in a tent on Sand Hills, would have
BLACKPOOL'S GIPSY QUEEN DEAD. Sarah Boswell, tho Blackpool gipsy just passed away in a tent on Sand Hills, would have been 99 this month. Head of the great Boswell family, which claims to be the only family true gipsy blood,
-
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
21 Jun 1892
CURIOUS CHARGE OF ABDUCTION
extraordinary abduction case was hoard St. Helens. Nathan Bos well, ;i travelling gipsy, was charged with abducting his cousin, Ann daughter of Philip Boswell, another gipsy. The girl ran away with the prisoner, and refused to return to her parents
-
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
29 Sep 1884
TO-DAY'S POLICE NEWS
appeared, and said ha had been away from home tinea Monday morning. —He was discharged promising return home with his mother. Boswell, gipsy, was charged with being on London-road, on Friday night. —The prisoner, who stranger the town, was discharged with a caution
-
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
15 Dec 1892
GENERAL NEWS
by the 22nd, or at all events not later than the 23rd December. At a special court held at Dukinfield on Tuesday, Mary Boswell, gipsy hawker, was remanded an extraordinary charge of obtaining 30s. by false pretences. Mrs. Mary Ann Harrison, the prosecute
-
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
5 Jan 1938
Howard Boswell. who also known as Gipsy Boswell (63), of 83, Tamworth-road, Long Eaton, who was charged with assault
-
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
1 Apr 1895
TO-DAY'S POLICE NEWS
while for the assault on the officer would have to go prison for a month with hard labour without the option of fine. Boswell, a gipsy and a cripple, admitted a charge drunkenness and disorderly behaviour in Erasmus-street Saturday
-
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
21 Dec 1895
TO-DAY'S POLICE NEWS
called in support of the charge.—Fined JBI and costs (in all 40s. 6d.) or a month. Allfgrd Theft or a Gun.—Charles Boswell, a travelling gipsy of no fixed ab 'de, was charged with stealing a double-barrelled breech-loading gun
-
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
29 Jul 1874
DERBY BOROUGH POLICE COURT
Jane Boswell, a gipsy, war charged with being drunk and G. riotous in toe Morledge, on Tuesdahy, and Frances Bosell8 was charged with obstructing Police-constable Walker, when in the execution of his duty. Tbe policeman bad found Jane Boswell drunk
-
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
4 Feb 1880
DERBY COUNTY POLICE COURT, FRIDAY
unfit to travel.-A fine of l0s. and 7s. 3d. costs was oh at imposed on each of the defendants. we le A STRAY Ass.-Mary Boswell, a gipsy, was summoned de Iy at the instance of Police-constable Hetherington, charged dr Ze with allowing an ass to stray
-
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
28 Sep 1870
DERBY BOROUGH POLICE COURT
lb. She gave the no account of how she bad obtained it. On July 26th Rush- few ton had gone to him with a man, named Boswell, a gipsy, tire, from whom he bought a cask of grease for 11. Se. Witness airs had also bought fat from Rushton
-
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald Derbyshire, England
27 Jun 1874
NOTICES All communications for thia column, whether Notes Queries, or Beplies, must bear the name and address o the sender,
any further contributions of curious Christian names. GIPSY EPITAPHS AND BURIAL gave some time ago cannot just now give reference) an epitaph, taken from Selstsne ohurr-h yard, on Boswell, tbe gipsy king. Since it lmost interesting note where of the members
-
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald Derbyshire, England
31 Jan 1903
AFFRAY WITH GIPSIES
AFFRAY WITH GIPSIES. Aliened Murder cf a Policeman. Exciting Chase. A number of well-known gipsies are now in custody on a most serious charge. They were all, it is said, implicated in a violent affray near Burton-on-Trent. which resulted in the death
-
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald Derbyshire, England
17 Jul 1875
THE GIPSIES QUARREL AT BASLOW
THE GIPSIES QUARREL AT BASLOW. SECOND EDITION- IDerbyshire Times. TfiLEflrßggL [Special Telegram]. (By our Own Eeportkr.) This case was tried at the Sessions, yesterday, and owing to the men been eight days' in the Lock-up, ordered to pay and Boswell
-
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald Derbyshire, England
13 Feb 1932
A GIPSY’S EPITAPH
A GIPSY’S EPITAPH. For sound philosophy, none the epitaphs recently published in The Derbyshire Times can equal that in Selston Churchyard to a member of a gipsy tribe named Boswell, writes a correspondent. The inscription reads: I've lodged in many a
-
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald Derbyshire, England
18 Mar 1914
THE BOSWELLS AT CLAY CROSS
THE BOSWELLS AT CLAY CROSS Thott of Bacon and Assault on Harry and his wife. gipsy clan have resided in derby
-
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
29 Jan 1909
BLACKPOOL GIPSY FORTUNE TELLER
BLACKPOOL GIPSY FORTUNE TELLER. At the Kirkham Police Court on Thursday Blackpool gipsy named Daisy Boswell, who was described as a granddaughter of Gipsy Sarah, Blackpool, was summoned for pretending to tell fortunes St. Annes.
-
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald Derbyshire, England
14 Mar 1914
Violent Scenes With Gipsies. THE BOSWELLS AT OLAY CROSS Theft of Bacon and Assault Pol.oa Harrr Boswo’J sttd wifr. Mary
Violent Scenes With Gipsies. THE BOSWELLS AT OLAY CROSS Theft of Bacon and Assault
-
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald Derbyshire, England
17 Jul 1875
TERRIBLE AFFRAY AM??? GIPSIES AT BASLOW
TERRIBLE AFFRAY AM??? GIPSIES On Friday night, terrible eff-ay took a lot of gipsies Baslow, and had it not been for timoly interference of Spook a man named Osmand Boswoll, King of the gipsys must have kicked to death. It is alleged
-
Derby Daily Telegraph
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
13 Feb 1942
CHANGED THEIR ADDRESSES: 16 GIPSIES FINED
CHANGED THEIR ADDRESSES: 16 GIPSIES FINED gipsies ap-1 peared the Derby Coimty Police Court today charged with offences under the Defence Regulations. The cases were the outcome of an inspection of a gipsy encampment of over 30 caravans on the main Alfreton
-
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
28 Nov 1903
A NEW GIPSY QUEEN. The wide stretch of sandy hillocks between St. Anne's and Blackpool on the Lancashire coast has
A NEW GIPSY QUEEN. The wide stretch of sandy hillocks between St. Anne's and Blackpool on the Lancashire coast has for generations been the camping ground of the Boswell tribe of gipsies. Here they have told fortunes, read palms,
-
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
27 Apr 1912
. gipsy's at bakewell. Osery Boswell
-
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
21 Jan 1930
GEORGE BORROWS SECRET DALE
recalled a gipsy encampment on the common land of GuyTane, near Eggbridge, and near the Gowey River, which Borrow may have mistaken for the Dee that divides England and Wales, These women could remember that the chief families among these gipsies
-
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
2 Jun 1903
DRIVING HOME FROM EPSOM
DRIVING HOME FROM EPSOM. GIPSY QUEEN IX TROUBLE. At Croydon Police Court on Monday morning John Kin? (32), William King (22), and Apsey King (19), brothers, were remanded in custody on the charge a violent assault on Leir Boswell, his daughter, and wife
-
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
7 Mar 1912
TOWN AND COUNTY GOSSIP
of their race. fancy if all the Boswells were to turn up in his parish the worthy vicar would very considerably astonished, for the tribe of Bosweli could probably claim to numbered the ten thousand. There are Boswells here, there, and everywhere,
-
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald Derbyshire, England
22 Nov 1876
CHARGE OF WILFUL MURDER AT DERBY
about years of age, and was by trade a blacksmith, his father residing at Shottle. He had forme 1 connection with the gipsy Boswells, and was the father of three children by one of the tribe. Early on Sunday morning Nelson Bos well, brother to the woman
-
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
11 Jun 1921
NOTES AND NOTIONS
interesting to know whence these .visitors come, for the old gipsy families are not as easy to trace as ■ they were in the days when the Boswells were a power the land. Several of the Boswell family resided derby, and one of them told fortunes for years
-
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald Derbyshire, England
2 Mar 1912
gipsy their race tombstone of ■King Dan Boswell. Boswell in and Jus wife, who are, living
-
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
29 Nov 1876
THE CHARGE OF MURDER AT DERBY
not understand. Prisoner said to witness ,pily 1,My name is Nelson Boswell if you want that. ptnin Elizabeth Oaks was called again, and she stated that she n to heard Mary Boswell say with an oath, If you strike my ;er a husband again -1 will have
-
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
16 Feb 1910
TOWN AND COUNTY GOSSIP
history has just discovered the fact that the Boswell family have completed hundred years' association with i the place. The Boswells are, of course, acknowledged to be one of the foremost, if not the foremost, gipsy family the United Kingdom,
-
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald Derbyshire, England
2 Dec 1876
NOTES FROM DERBY
inquest held over the battered STof Ride, a verdict of Manslaughter was returned against BoswelL The Boswells are, bv-the-way! an ancient gipsy family. Their gipsy geneaology extends, I am told, several centuries back. Your deadly-lively contemporary.
-
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
14 Jul 1875
Local Topics
terrible affray took place between a lot- of gipsies at Baslow, and bad it not been) for the timely in- terference of police-sergeant Speck a man named Oarmsnd lera Boswell, king of the Gipsies, must have bean kicked to death. It is alleged
-
Derbyshire Advertiser and Journal Derbyshire, England
9 Oct 1863
PETTY SESSIONS, Tuesday, Sept. 29
recollect anything that occurred, was fined 20s. and costs, or default imprisoned for days. Vaobanct.—lsiah Boswell and Uriah Boswell, two gipsies, were charged
-
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
22 Nov 1876
CHARGE OF WILFUL MURDER AT DERBY
father residing at Shottle. He had formed a con- d nection with the gipsy Boswells, and was the father of three - children by one of the tribe. Early on Sunday morning r Nelson Boswell, brother to the woman who passes as Mrs. Ride, came to the police station
-
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
20 Feb 1839
MISCELLANEOUS
sum has been lodged in her name with Sir R. C. Glyn and Co., bankers in London. AN AGED Gipsy.-On Mlonday week, Dinah Boswell, one of a numerous tribe of gipsies of that name, was buried at Bury, who had attained the good old age of 101. She was attended
-
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
6 Dec 1876
DERBYSHIRE AND LEICESTERSHIRE ASSIZES
special attention, was somewhat singular in its circumstances. It was a charge of manslaughter against Nelson Boswell. He belonged to a tribe of gipsies, and was accused of causil)g the death of another person who was connected with them. At the time of the
-
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
12 Jun 1867
STAFFORDSHIRE
sentenced to two calendar mouths' imprisonment. -Joseph Smith, John Sdilers, William Sherriff, Isaiah Bos- well, and Louis Boswell, gipsies, were charged with trespass- ing on the highway, in the parish of Yoxall, on the 28th unt. Policecostable Wheaver found
-
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
25 Jan 1897
DERBY SKETCHING CLUB
bear examination. Mr. George Fearn Smith sends striking portrait of . gipsy woman who was a well-known figure in town some 16 20 years ago, and known , tbs name of Lncretia Boswell. It evident the ; remit was painted number of years ago. , s many good
-
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
8 Jan 1896
DERBYSHIRE QUARTER SESSIONS
dealing with. The only one he would refer to was the charge of theft against a man named Bos- well. There was no doubt that Boswell got possession of the gun, but it, would be for the Grand Jury to con- sider whether he took it away with any felonious intent
-
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
8 Jan 1896
DERBYSHIRE QUARTER SESSIONS
dealing with. The only one he would refer to was the charge of theft against a man named Bos- well. There was no doubt that Boswell got possession of the gun, but it, would be for the Grand Jury to con- sider whether he took it away with any felonious intent
-
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
22 May 1903
TO-DAY'S POLICE NEWS
to pay his wife 9s. a week. Defendant also had to pay trie costs of the case, 18s. 6d. A Mother and the New Act.— Hannah Boswell, pedlar, of Gisborno-street, Derby, was charged, on remand, under the new Licensing Act, for being drunk whilst in chc rge
-
Derbyshire Courier Derbyshire, England
8 Aug 1891
EOKINGTON AND NEIGHBOURHOOD,
of SMITH, Queen Who die . 30th, 18*4. Aged 72 years. Another death, that of Matilda Boswell, aged 40. and said to be daughter of the Gipsy Queen, also recorded upon this stone. Old natives tell quite a romantic story respecting Quean Luoretia
-
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald Derbyshire, England
13 Jun 1891
Courts of summary Jurisdiction
Unlicensed Dog.—George Boswell, junior, of no settled place of abode, was summoned, but did not Appear, for keeping a dog without license at Hartington-Middle- Quartor. —P.c. Taylor proved the case. The defendant was one of a party gipsies, and on May 24th
-
Derbyshire Advertiser and Journal Derbyshire, England
14 Jan 1846
MILITIA
acquitted. Moses Has well, aged 20, and Joseph Boswell, aged 20, were charged with having on the 24th of December, at Hartshorne, feloniously stolen one brooch, the property of Moses Warrington. Prisoners were gipsies, and prosecutor, publican, at Hartshorne
-
Derbyshire Courier Derbyshire, England
18 Nov 1854
NOVEMBER 18, 1864
a Noted Gipsy On Friday morning last, Star Herring, the wife of Mansfield Herring, died in the camp at Spa Lane, Shuttle wood, in the parish of Bolsover, in the 37th year of her age, of disease of the heart. She was daughter of Peter Boswell, and niece
-
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
20 Oct 1824
SATURDAY, SUNDAY and TUESDAY's POSTS
by the Rev. William Wing._On Wednesday the gipsy camp broke up frot Southorpe; on which oclasion those who had composed it went to the church-yard to pay the last tribute of affection at the grave of Boswell, and a very impressive scene of silent unaffected
-
Derbyshire Courier Derbyshire, England
21 Nov 1840
ARTISTS AND WORKMEN
2nd Nov. . Gipsy wedding —lt is not generally known as it should he, that the brown race the unclean thing lept the Broomstick
-
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
9 Jan 1867
DERBYSHIRE QUARTER SESSIONS
his partner, at Long Eaton.-He was sen- tenced to four months' imprisonment. ROBBERY BY A GIPSY. Napthtali Boswell, 22, chair-bottomer, a dirty looking t gipsy, pleaded guilty to stealing some clothes, from a line, the property of Frederick Hutchinson
-
Derbyshire Courier Derbyshire, England
22 Dec 1855
r.OCAL NEWS
Rufford, was fined £3 and costs, and committed two months in default. Dec. 17, before J. Dodsley, Esq.—Jeremiah Boswell and Rodolph Smith, gipsies, for stealing growing field turnips, belonging to Mr. Baily, of Pythoroe Hill, were each fined 2s and costs
-
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
11 Aug 1886
District News
Buxton, was o to charged with killing a cat belonging to Thomas Oswald [er c eralsuvell, on the 28th ult.-Proseoator, who is a gipsy, said 31. s defendant had something to cat in his camp, and then he the wanted to fight a man over the possession of a stick
-
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
19 Jun 1833
Births, Deaths, Marriages and Obituaries
KING OF THE Gmi'siEs.-We have Lag to record the death, at an advanced age, a few days since, of sea liawrenceeBoswell, said to be ?? of the Gipsies. ?? had been declining in health a considerable time, and dur. last ing the last two or three months, was,
-
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald Derbyshire, England
7 Jun 1873
A DERBYSHIRE CENTENARIAN.— obituary notice I find On Saturday, 16th of October. 1869, Elizabeth Greatorex died at Plaistow Green, Crich,
oblige with the desired information ? W. A. DAN BOSWELL. —When a lad at Pinxton some twenty years ago, I recollect having pointed out to me Selstone Common, not far distant from the Hall, the plaoe where the Gipsy King Dan Boawell died. He was buried at the
-
Sheffield Evening Telegraph South Yorkshire, England
15 Feb 1910
IRISH MANCEUVRES
fifty-four ?n. arS .’. my rooter and father came here in 1810, was the pica made at Blackpool Police Court yesterday Alma Boswell, a gipsy, but order for his ejection from the sands was made. . The system inaugurated by the Salvation Army of collecting the
-
Sheffield Evening Telegraph South Yorkshire, England
18 Jun 1910
MESSAGES IN SNOW
Terrified Gipsy's Prophecies. I At Runcorn yesterday. Mary Boswell, gipsy hawker, was sentenced to two months' hard labour for fortune telling. An extraordinary story was told by Evelyn Chorlcy, the wife of electric cable worker 'al Helsby Boswell entered
-
Sheffield Evening Telegraph South Yorkshire, England
20 Jan 1891
A NEW YEAR'S PARTY
summoned Henry BoswelL a gipsy, for assault during the night ol the 31st December, while Boswell had summons for assault against Hughes, both summonses having been taken out at two different places on the same date. Both cases taken together, Boswell, consent
-
Sheffield Daily Telegraph South Yorkshire, England
14 Jun 1871
SHEFFIELD TOWN HALL
costs. WEST BIDING COUBT. Before Sir John Brows and W. P. Milker, Esq KS Charge Stealing Monet tanning ton. Phasnix Boswell, described as »gipsy, was charged with stealing half-crown piece, the property of William Sheldon, grocer, S'.annington, Friday last
-
Sheffield Daily Telegraph South Yorkshire, England
5 Jan 1878
DERBYSHIRE NEWS
the care of Dr. Walker has sufficiently recovered to ba able to leave Chatsworth for Holker. without License.—Nelson Boswell, a gipsy, was yesterday charged at the Derby Police Court with hawking without a license in Louden-street, Rose-bill, Thursday
-
Sheffield Daily Telegraph South Yorkshire, England
4 Jan 1888
THE DEATH IN A GIPSY’S CARAVAN AT
THE DEATH IN A GIPSY’S CARAVAN AT DERBY. Yesterday the Coroner of Derby held an inquest the Thorn Tree Inn, Tenant street, on the body of Elisabeth Baines, aged 37, who bad resided in the caravan of a gipsy named Elias Boswell, which was stationed in
-
Sheffield Evening Telegraph South Yorkshire, England
29 Nov 1913
A RASH ROMANY
A RASH ROMANY A swarthy-skinned gipsy named Henry Boswell, aged 40. who claims descent from the famous gipsy family of that name, was charged at Nottingham to-day with attempting suicide making a sensational dive from the balcony of a house in Mappcrley
-
Sheffield Independent South Yorkshire, England
22 Jul 1878
ROMANTIC MARRIAGE IN NOTTS
to tha family of gipsies known by the name of Boswell. This man was frequently visited by a gipsy relative, who lives at Wifford, near Nottingham, and is a horsa dealer. An intimacy, it appears, was formed between Miss A. and the gipsy gentleman, which
-
Nottingham Evening Post Nottinghamshire, England
11 Aug 1925
TEACHING HOUSEWIVES HOW TO BUY
MONTHS FOR A NOTTINGHAM MAN. Said have undergone the punishment of the cat, the birch, and penal servitude, James Thomas Wilsher, hawker, of 25. Fyne-street, Nottingham, was given two months imprisonment at the Guildhall to-day for being suspected person
-
Nottingham Evening Post Nottinghamshire, England
2 Jul 1946
Generous Nottm. Bench
pals at the cricket match and we celebrated,” the magistrates at the Nottingham Guildhall were told to-day by Joseph Wilsher, 39, a hawker, of 8, Fairholme-terrace, who had been found lying on the pavement in Bridlesmith-gate, taken to hospital and discovered
-
Nottingham Evening Post Nottinghamshire, England
19 May 1924
CROWBAR AND AXE
NOTTM. HAWKER GETS MONTH FOR UNPROVOKED ASSAULT. mxb ma,, has right do anything the pohoe. they are treated fairly the pobce this are as oonsidoratc any *• comments of Sir Albert Ball, at the Nottingham Guildhall £d»y, James Wither, 26. hawker. Fyne-atret*
-
Nottinghamshire Guardian Nottinghamshire, England
9 Aug 1878
WORKSOP COUNTY COURT
de- livery book, snd at hta request the esse was adjourned. A Hoaaa Tbaus-ctioii.— William Holmes, horse dealer, of Barlbeurgh, bettor known as Gipsy Holmes, wat sued by George Walker, farmer, of Whit- well, for the sum of £80. After heating the opening
-
Nottinghamshire Guardian Nottinghamshire, England
2 Jun 1865
MANSFIELD PETTY SESSIONS
for publication. — Mrs Fisher and Mr Else gave corroborative evidence. —Committed for two months, with hard labour. John Smith, a gipsy, was charged with having, on Sun- day last, taken 15 eggs from a partridge nest, at Rufford— Abraham Fox, a keeper of
-
that's enough I carnt take no more ,
I need a drink , no a tablet , no a gun , no a rope , helllppppppppppppp
-
Rich I was thinking about the word king, what does is mean, what does it signal, what is it used for , by who and for who ever, I could find lots of information but I was reading this below and what it says here about the usage of that word gives a great insight into the very thoughts of others of old, maybe you don't have to walk in there shoes on every road, maybe you have see through there thoughts in an abstracted vission
Nottinghamshire history resoures for local histories and genealogists
G. C. A. Austin, Early Recollections of Nottingham Marketplace (c1960)
Early Recollections of
Nottingham
Marketplace
by
G. C. A. AUSTIN
Written during convalescence at Matlock,
March, 1941
IN the year 1896,—the year before Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee,—I, a thin, pale lad of sixteen, began to earn my living
Across this road, on a large triangular site, was the remaining part of the Market, which contained much of interest. A few nurserymen's stalls, crowded out of the main section, came first, and behind these was the Bird Market, so called, though the name did not do it justice. The birds were mostly fowls, with chickens and ducklings in Spring. Canaries and other cage birds, even a parrot or two, were also on sale; but there were no budgerigars. Besides birds, there were dogs in great variety, and cages of yelping puppies. Anyone who had a dog to sell came here and stood with the animal on a lead, or in his arms, until accosted by a buyer. The toll keeper had a tiresome job extracting coppers from these men, many of whom were Bulwell Colliers. There were other animals also for sale —rabbits, white mice and tortoises, and occasionally, a goat. The great feature of this area was the famous Pot Market, the delight of thrifty housewives. Thousands of pieces of china were laid out on the cobbles in jumbled heaps, with narrow paths between, where one walked warily for fear of kicking the crockery. Customers rummaged, without interference, in search of articles to match some already owned. It was possible, by patience and many visits, to make up a tea or dinner service, for a fraction of the shop price. Of course, the pieces were all "seconds", but the defects were trifling, and the joy of the hunt was great. The vendors kept up a merry clatter demonstrating that the goods were free from cracks. The "King" of the Market, a tall old man with a ragged beard, kept up a monotonous chant of "Sort 'em out at your own price! All sound and perfect, ladies!" Some years later, the Queen Victoria statue was erected here. I remember attending the unveiling ceremony, attired in frock coat and silk hat, without which, in those days, I should have been conspicuous. Mrs. Cappocci, the Ice Cream Queen, reigned nearby.
-
and when you read little extracts from crime and punishment before what I wrote of earlier, you also get a better view of the reasons of evolution in everyman's life in living and dyeing in there own day
Nottinghamshire history resoures for local histories and genealogistsJ H Beardsmore, The History of Hucknall Torkard, (1909)
CRIME AND SOCIAL CONDITIONS.
As indicated in a previous chapter, the morals of Hucknall were as good as in most villages, so far as can be gleaned from the records.
When famine stalked the land the pangs of hunger prompted men to fierce and violent deeds, as they do to-day, but considering the necessitous body of people living here from 1750 to 1850, it is to their credit that, excepting the Luddite disturbances, the cases of serious crime appear to have been few.
Crime in the period just named seems to us nowadays to have been more heavily punished than it deserved, John Howard's good work serving little to mitigate brutal sentences for trivial transgressions. Thus in 1753, with a good telescope, a person on Sandy Lane Hill might have discerned on Gallows Hill at Nottingham the bodies of two men swinging for having quarrelled with an Arnold man and cutting off his little fingers.
In 1758 a man was hung for robbing a pedlar at Newark, and again in 1800 two men were strung up for forgery, on a new gallows at the top of Mansfield Road, Nottingham, because somebody on the night before had chopped down the old gallows. A boy of 14 years was hung in 1802 for picking pockets.
In 1784 Thomas Blackner was condemned to death for burglary at Hucknall, but was reprieved ere the hanging day arrived.
The Parish Overseer's book for 1808 tells an interesting story of the time. Coal was 10d. per cwt., and was brought in panniers on asses' backs from Willey Lane Pit.
Tramps had to bring "passes," signed by magistrates or clergymen, before they were relieved
and I,v been reading about all the old roadways, in the olden days, there's great truth lies within the knowledge of old roads,
find the old roads and you will find the people, learn of the roads and you will learn of the villagers, learn of the villagers and you learn how they lived, what work they did and the things they needed to survive,
I have read lots about the usage of horses and mules, donkeys you get the picture, round selston the time of Dan Boswell the need for horse power was great,
there would be lots of answers to the bigger questions of life if a man can first learn of the simple thing as a mear roadway
I,v been of work for a few days Rich but back at it soon so will not be able to be the computer nerd no more, and I was enjoying it to, but hope to learn more and shear more in the future,
I found those census reports and things by just googling them, if you google anything there source will come up,thats how I find things, dosent mean anything is true, you would have to search out the source, but I put things on to help others , the bigger picture , the experts will in life be the ones who condense much flower to make the sweetest of cakes,
I make a nice cup of tea as well Rich, I hope the society let your writings into there papers,
good luck Rich
michael
-
ho and in the first letter I meant to say look into the words king and queen,
-
Barrows blog
The Royal Epping Forest Gypsy Balls
North Wales Chronicle, Saturday 11 November 1871
“A GIPSY BALL.– Whether or not many people go a gipsying in the present day, it is pretty certain that no inconsiderable number go to gipsy balls. This was evident at the Masonic-hall, Scotland-road, Liverpool, on Monday night, when the “King and Queen” of the Gipsies gave a ball. The Zingari tribe of gipsies – they maintain that they are the only genuine tribe – are at present in camp in the neighbourhood of Everton, and they embrace the families of the Mullingers, Smiths and Whatnells. Their home is Epping Forest, but they have been in these parts some time.
The king rejoices in the common name of Smith – Walter Smith, that of his Queen being Matilda Smith. They speak the gipsy language, marry only amongst their own tribe, but consummate their matrimonial alliances in Protestant places of worship. They would appear to depend a good deal on the support of “externs”, making money wherever they are, and getting a living in quite a different style to the old, pastoral style of their ancestors. The ball was one means of replenishing their exchequer, and judging from the members who attended, it was pretty successful. The prices of admission, moreover, were low, and the opportunity of seeing and dancing with their majesties was thus within reach of all.
The King, Queen, and other members of the tribe, together with their children, graced the occasion with their presence, and entered thoroughly into the spirit of the dance. Her Majesty the Queen (Mrs. Smith) was dressed in blue silk, with a rather pretty head-dress which has no Parisian or other name. The rest of the female members of the tribe were for the most part attired in white, with glaring red trimmings, and red Garibaldi jackets. The costume of his Majesty (Mr. Smith) is perhaps best described as being a compound between the dress of a gamekeeper and a groom.
-
Nottinghamshire Guardian Nottinghamshire, England
26 Nov 1861
THE GIPSY CORONATION AT YETHOLM
THE GIPSY CORONATION AT YETHOLM Majesty Queen Esther Faa Blyth, which has been for a few weeks back a subject of much discussion here, took place on Tuesday last As our readers are perhaps aware, there were two candidates in the field
-
well its looks like to me Gipsys have played up to the idear of beying royal for money , power , both , but the locals just think of them as some side act show, just like that Italian ice cream queen I wrote about a few posts back, and that man the king of the cracked plates, the more I think of it the more old Dan Boswell should least have the truth be known, evan is he was a King,i would say he would of been a real one, but do you know, I bet he was just a man of his time,
long live the King
the king is dead
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
2 Sep 1931
MICKLEOVER GIPSY FAIR LADY FERGUSON BELL, OF DERBY, PERFORMS OPENING Mickleover Women's Institute members held a gipsy fair in the Memorial Hut this afternoon. Lady J. Ferguson Bell, of Derby, performed the opening ceremony. Also on the platform were
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
24 Jun 1938
GIPSY WEDDING AT SPONDON LARGE CROWD SEES COLOURFUL EVENT The gipsy wedding and dancing display postponed from Wednesday owing to the heavy rain, was held on the Cricket Ground, Spondon, last evening, and was watched by big crowd. On a decorated platform
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
22 Jun 1931
GIPSY ENCAMPMENT FETE CONCERT AND SALE FOR W. I. FUNDS In aid of Middleton W.I. funds, the members held a concert in the Church Hall, and a sale, both representing a Kipsy encampment. The president, Miss Killer, presided at the concert. Mrs. C. H. Salmon
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
23 Mar 1939
GIPSY EVENING HORSLEY FELLOWSHIP MEMBERS IN COSTUME In gipsy costume, members, of the Young People's Fellowship attached to the Central Methodist Church, Horsley YVoodhouse, welcomed about 80 guests at a gipsy evening held by the Fellowship last
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
9 Apr 1937
GIPSY CONCERT SUNDAY SCHOOL CHILDREN'S DERBY ENTERTAINMENT A gipsy concert was given the Junction Baptist Church schoolrexnn, Derby, last night, aid of funds for the Forward movement bazaar be held in October. The concert was arranged by Miss Barnes,
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
14 May 1936
GIPSY EVENING CHADDESDEN ENTERTAINMENT BY CHURCH MEMRERS An entertainment, was given by women members of the Mayfleld-road Methodist Church. Derby, at the Memorial .Hall, Chaddesden, last night. A gipsy encampment was portrayed in the first part of
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
28 May 1938
GIPSY ROYALTY
crowning of the gipsy king and queen will mark the opening of the carnival. Attractions will include a carnival band contest, all-in wrestling, weightlifting by the Midland counties champion, acrobatic dancing, a decorated house contest, and a gipsy wedding.
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
23 Apr 1936
GIPSY EVENING
GIPSY EVENING DERBY WOMEN'S BRIGHT HOUR CONCERT The Women's Bright Hour anniversary celebrations at Mayfield-road Methodist Church. Derby, were continued last night when members presented a concert entitled Gipsy Fvening.. Gipsy and tap dances were
Derby Daily Telegraph Derbyshire, England
3 Sep 1931
LADIES ORGANISE GIPSY FAIR MICKLEOVER EVENT OPENED BY LADY FERGUSON BELL The Gipsy Fair, held by Mickleover Women's Institute members, in the Memorial Hut, Mickleover, yesterday, ended with a whist drive and dance. Lady J. Ferguson Bell, as reported in
-
when you search records or information, it would be easy to find and transcribe what you find, in this way the bigger picture I talk about will never be seen, this is how so much information is not known and can be then wrote by others wrongly, below it just shows you the story or shall I only say the story part found yet, but just look at the story and how you may find more information by searching more writings of the subject, this does not mean what you have so far found is true, nor complete, this is just part of the bigger picture, I will look soon for things like this on Dan Boswell, I am not in no clubs or society's on line the web so only can put them as they show up,
Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer
17 Aug 1875
Savage assault by gipsies
Four men William Wilsher 60 William Wilsher the younger 24 Edward Wilsher 21 James Winter 19
all gipsies rendered to bail
York Herald North Yorkshire
6 July 1875
commenced to quarrel and he telled them to go out Wm Wilsher sen struck him on the lip with the but end of a wip cutting it open and knocking his teeth out
William Jn and Edward struck him on the head and face with the but ends
York Herald North Yorkshire Post
10 July 1875
Serious assault by a gang of gipsies on Monday Wm Wilsher Sen Wm Wilsher Jn Edward Wilsher and James Winter four gipsies were charged with the violent assault on James Pears Landlord of the White Swan Inn
Hull Packet East Riding
9 July 1875
Serious assault by a gang of gipsies on Monday Wm Wilsher Sen Wm Wilsher Jn Edward Wilsher and James Winter four gipsies were charged with the violent assault on James Pears Landlord of the White Swan Inn
Leeds Times West Yorkshire
21 August 1875
Francis Darwin occupied the chair in the second court
savage assault by gipsies William Wilsher 60 William Wilsher the younger 24 Edward Wilsher 21
and James Winter 19 all gipsies serrendeed to their bail charged with unlawfully inflicting
Sheffield Daily Telegraph South Yorkshire, England
17 Aug 1875
WEST RIDING INTERMEDIATE SISSIONS
William Wilsher, the elder (on bail), 60, gipsy William Wilsher, the younger (on bail), gipsy Edward Wilsher, 21, gipsy; James winter (on bail), 21, gipsy, were charged with unlawfully and maliciously inflicting
York Herald North Yorkshire, England
17 Aug 1875
WEST RIDING
William Wilsher. sen., William Wilsher, jun., Edward Wilsher, and James Winter, gipsies, for in- flicting grievous bodily barm upon Michael Pearse, at Brayton, near Selby, on
York Herald North Yorkshire, England
21 Aug 1875
WEST RIDING MIDSUMMER INTERME-.DIATE SESSIONS
william Wilsher, sen., William Wilsher, jun., Edward Wilsher, and James Winter, gipsies, for in- flicting grievous bodily harm upon Michael Pearse, at Brayton, near Selby, on
Daily Gazette for Middlesbrough North Yorkshire, England
6 Jul 1875
Brutal Assault by a Gang of Gipsies. — At the Selby petty sessions on Monday, Wm. Wilsher, sen,Wm. Wilsher, jun., Edwd. Wilsher, and James Winter, four gipsies, were charged with a violent assault upon Michael pears, landlord
-
this is just how it comes up, not sure if anything is right, but I will put anything on just case something turns out
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
17 Aug 1831
TUESDAY's POST
inquest was held . on the gipsies on Saturday afternoon. One of them was a remarkably handsome man, and had lately been married. i Verdict, killed by lightning. The names of the sufferers were Edward Herring and Tyso Boswell. There were not any marks
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
20 Oct 1824
SATURDAY, SUNDAY and TUESDAY's POSTS
by the Rev. William Wing._On Wednesday the gipsy camp broke up frot Southorpe; on which occasion those who had composed it went to the church-yard to pay the last tribute of affection at the grave of Boswell, and a very impressive scene of silent unaffected
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
19 Jun 1833
Births, Deaths, Marriages and Obituaries
a DEATH OF THE KING OF THE Gipsies We have to record the death, at an advanced age, a few days since, of Lawrence Boswell, said to be ?? of the Gipsies. ?? had been declining in health a considerable time
FamilyNotice
-
Derbyshire Courier Derbyshire, England
12 May 1838
GAZETTE, AND COUNTY ADVERTISER
marriage lines, which were seen at the workhouse, indisputably proved that she was married to the great Boswell, the King of the Gypsies, years since. The King died at the gypsy-camp, at Best wood-park, in 180 and was interred in Eastwood Church-yard. His
-
DERBY BOROUGH POLICE NEWS
or 14 daye' imprisonment, was sheriff was summoned for assaulting and I beating Sarah Boswell, on July 4th, in Ford-atreet. The 1 I parties are gipsies. Fined 20s. and costs. or a montht' s 3 ?? Sheriff was summoned for assault- ing Sarah Boswell
Derbyshire Courier Derbyshire, England
26 Nov 1853
A Royal Family. There is in the county of Nottingham an extensive tribe of gipsies, headed by Elijah Boswell, who styled the Gipscy King, a distinction which is said to have lineally inherited from a long line of ancestors.
-
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
28 Sep 1870
DERBY BOROUGH POLICE NEWS
or 14 daye' imprisonment, was sheriff was summoned for assaulting and I beating Sarah Boswell, on July 4th, in Ford- street The parties are gipsies. Sheriff was summoned for assault- ing Sarah Boswell
this is the date for the one above, its jumbled up on the web,
-
Derbyshire Advertiser and Journal Derbyshire, England
29 Sep 1854
Some gipsies having campt in the neighbourhood, one of the female members of the tribe ascertained from the farm labourer that she had a daughter in the stage of consumption. The gipsy represented that the child
-
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald Derbyshire, England
25 Apr 1874
Local Notes and Queries
Selston, and with true affectionate loyalty erected gravestone, which bears the following appropriate inscription In Memory Daniel Boswell, who died March 1827, Aged 83. I have lodged in mar place 'tis true. And traveled many a year, Till God leng-h has brought
-
Rich puts these on to, I just put things on encase there is just the smallest of chance something could be different
-
what about these two, wow we need old William Wilsher , he would give herm the wip
Taunton Courier, and Western Advertiser Somerset, England
1 Aug 1816
THE GIPSIES
THE GIPSIES. Of late years some attempts have been made to reduce the number, or at any rate to civilize their habits, that vagabond and useless race, the Gypsies. In pursuance of such purpose, society of gentlemen have been making all the preliminaty enquiries
London Evening Standard London, England
20 Aug 1879
GIPSIES
of the village in which the Gipsies reside. I may say that the townsfolk do not fraternise with the Gipsies, who are regarded with the greatest suspicion by the former. Ask a townsman of Yetholm what he thinks of the Gipsies, and he will tell you they
Morning Post London, England
5 Feb 1835
KING OF THE GIPSIES
KING OF THE GIPSIES Died last week, at the Royal encampment, Bestwood- lane, in the parish of Basford, near this town, after a lingering illness, Louis Boswell, King of the Gipsies, aged 42. A report being generally circulated that the royal remains
-
charming, you would think they was discussing foot and mouth epidemic
Sussex Agricultural Express East Sussex, England
14 Jan 1898
HOW TO DEAL WITH GIPSIES
HOW TO DEAL WITH GIPSIES. The Surrey County Council forwarded copy of resolutions a recent conference to further legislation with regard to gipsies, tent and van dwellers, and asking the council's observations on them. Mr. GILFOBD proposed that
-
Sheffield Independent South Yorkshire, England
21 Feb 1824
charged by Mr Adams, agent of the Overseers this township, with neglect of his family Zackariah and Sara Boswell, (of the notorious gang of gipsies,) disorderly, and also tor treating the posse of watchmen who helped in their apprehension in
-
yes it is strange were the road leads Rich, I sure found lots of information on the web about relatives by copying how you research, strange how oral history can be true, people often say oral history passed down could be wrong, records can be wrong, but when they both match up, you just know in your heart everything is fine, so thank you Rich, I'm happy I met you, I learned so much from just seeing how you look for things, I wish for you a long and happy life,
Leahcim
-
happy new year to all
-
merry Christmas to you all,
-
Derbyshire Courier
Derbyshire Courier Derbyshire, England
6 Oct 1908
the DERBYSHIRE COURIER, tuesday, OCTOBER 6, WHAT THE POLICEMAN SAW
I sure know nothing about it,” was the answer of Thomas Wiltshire, alias » wilshaw and Wilsher, who until recently resided at 40, Apple Street, Sheffield, and occupation is a hawker,
-
a good day to you all, roots, yes, is very important,
very interesting to us all to find matters of history
I will write about three things in a minute, they all tried either to take your soul, take your heart, own you, direct you, it was themselves they was searching for, for they seen in the Gipsy the origin of man,
it was them who was lost,
it was them who needed understanding,
it was them who needed saving,
yes it was them , they only looked and wrote of Gipsys for the new not themselves,
and who was them, them is the name given, they used the three things as tools, all who used the tools are them,
-
Citation Information
Article Title
Charles Darwin Biography
Author
Biography.com Editors
Website Name
The Biography.com website
URL
http://www.biography.com/people/charles-darwin-9266433
Access Date
January 1, 2016
Publisher
A&E Television Networks
Original Published Date
Charles Darwin Biography
Biologist, Scientist (1809–1882)Death and LegacyCharles Darwin is best known for his work as a naturalist, developing a theory of evolution to explain biological change.
Synopsis
Naturalist Charles Darwin was born in Shrewsbury, England, on February 12, 1809. In 1831, he embarked on a five-year survey voyage around the world on the HMS Beagle. His studies of specimens around the globe led him to formulate his theory of evolution and his views on the process of natural selection. In 1859, he published On the Origin of Species. He died on April 19, 1882, in London.
Early Life
Naturalist Charles Robert Darwin was born on February 12, 1809, in the tiny merchant town of Shrewsbury, England. He was the second youngest of six children. Darwin came from a long line of scientists. His father, Dr. R.W. Darwin, was as a medical doctor, and his grandfather, Dr. Erasmus Darwin, was a renowned botanist. Darwin’s mother, Susanna, died when he was only 8 years old. Darwin was a child of wealth and privilege who loved to explore nature.
In October 1825, at age 16, Darwin enrolled at Edinburgh University along with his brother Erasmus. Two years later, Charles Darwin became a student at Christ's College in Cambridge. His father hoped he would follow in his footsteps and become a medical doctor, but the sight of blood made Darwin queasy. His father suggested he study to become a parson instead, but Darwin was far more inclined to study natural history.
Voyage on the HMS Beagle
While Darwin was at Christ's College, botany professor John Stevens Henslow became his mentor. After Darwin graduated Christ's College with a bachelor of arts degree in 1831, Henslow recommended him for a naturalist’s position aboard the HMS Beagle. The ship, commanded by Captain Robert FitzRoy, was to take a five-year survey trip around the world. The voyage would prove the opportunity of a lifetime for the budding young naturalist.
On December 27, 1831, the HMS Beagle launched its voyage around the world with Darwin in tow. Over the course of the trip, Darwin collected a variety of natural specimens, including birds, plants and fossils. Through hands-on research and experimentation, he had the unique opportunity to closely observe principles of botany, geology and zoology. The Pacific Islands and Galapagos Archipelago were of particular interest to Darwin, as was South America.
Upon his return to England in 1836, Darwin began to write up his findings in the Journal of Researches, published as part of Captain FitzRoy's larger narrative and later edited into the Zoology of the Voyage of the Beagle. The trip had a monumental affect on Darwin’s view of natural history. He began to develop a revolutionary theory about the origin of living beings that was contrary to the popular view of other naturalists at the time.
Theory of Evolution
Darwin's exposure to specimens all over the globe raised important questions. Other naturalists believed that all species either came into being at the start of the world, or were created over the course of natural history. In either case, the species were believed to remain much the same throughout time. Darwin, however, noticed similarities among species all over the globe, along with variations based on specific locations, leading him to believe that they had gradually evolved from common ancestors. He came to believe that species survived through a process called "natural selection," where species that successfully adapted to meet the changing requirements of their natural habitat thrived, while those that failed to evolve and reproduce died off.
In 1858, after years of further scientific investigation, Darwin publically introduced his revolutionary theory of evolution in a letter read at a meeting of the Linnean Society. On November 24, 1859, he published a detailed explanation of his theory in his best-known work, On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection.
Following a lifetime of devout research, Charles Darwin died at his family home, Down House, in London, on April 19, 1882, and was buried at Westminster Abbey. During the next century, DNA studies revealed evidence of his theory of evolution, although controversy surrounding its conflict with Creationism—the religious view that all of nature was born of God—still abounds today.
Death and Legacy
-
Christian Apologetics & Research MinistryWhat is Evangelism?
About The Author
Matt Slick is the President and Founder of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry.
by Tony Miano
Evangelism is the announcement, proclamation, and/or preaching of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), the good news of and about Jesus Christ. Therefore, the gospel is a communicated message--communicated in verbal (Luke 7:22, Romans 10:14-17) and/or written (Luke 1:1-4) form.
The English word, “evangelism,” comes from the Greek word euaggelion. Most literally translated in the noun form, euaggelion means: “gospel” or “good news.” In the verb form (euaggelizesthai), the meaning of the word changes slightly to “announce” or “bring good news.” The Greek word in its various forms appears fifty-five times in the New Testament. In addition to the before-mentioned translations, the Greek word is also translated as “preach.”
Evangelism, the communication of the gospel message, includes a warning, an explanation, and a call. Evangelism includes warning people about sin and the consequences of sin (John 16:8, Acts 24:25, Revelation 20:11-15). It includes an explanation of God’s remedy for sin—the gospel (Acts 8:29-35, Romans 3:21-26, 2 Corinthians 5:21). And it includes the clear call to repent (to turn from sin and to turn toward God) and believe the gospel by faith (Mark 1:15, Luke 13:1-5, Acts 17:29-31, Romans 1:17, Romans 10:9-13)
-
I will talk another time about these things, these are the things that interchange, these are the things that are and were used by people to justify their actions , their ways,
-
Nottingham Evening Post Nottinghamshire, England
16 Aug 1889
A GIPSY WEDDING
and inquired of the host whether a gipsy wedding could take place there, adding that they would pay well. At the same time he exhibited a paper establishing his identity Butura Simi. captain of a gipsy tribe, mustering forty souls
do you see this now in 88, captain they call him,
-
Derby Mercury Derbyshire, England
4 Aug 1830
TRIAL AND CONVICTION OF CAPTAIN FOR MURDER
aged 105 years, well known by his perodical visits to different parts 'of the country, under the denomination of King of the Gipsies. all of our readers will, doubtless, remember seeing his Majesty during the hop season, riding on a donkey,
then you have Gipsys going round in later yeares saying thier kings ,
-
Nottingham Review and General Advertiser for the Midland Counties Nottinghamshire, England
30 Jan 1835
A King of the Gipsies Died, after an illness of fourteen weeks, near the Tinker house, in a lane leading from Basford to Arnold, in the parish Lenton, on Friday, Lewis Boswell, aged 42 years. He was the leader or king of a tribe of gipsies, who have encamped in the lane for the last fourteen weeks
see there they say, Leader or king,
how many people only see the word king, and the year was 1835, how many times as king been transcribed down through the years, yet Leader lost to the ages
Stamford Mercury Lincolnshire, England
15 Oct 1824
Friday's Express
individual whose remains were consigned to the earth, was in life no less, a personage than Henry Boswell, well known as the Father or King of the Gipsies resorting to this part of the country. The old man was encamped on Southorpe Heath
now you have in 1824 Henry Boswell known as Father or king of the Gipsies,
how many times afterwards was Henry only called king, this was 1824
-
Moderator comment: please do not copy and paste information from other sites which may be subject to copyright.
Link to Nottingham City Councils page at www.deceasedonline.com
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gtx/
-
I would often go with my Mother to pay respects to People at Wilford Hill, there are lots there
names like William , Joseph , Percy, Henry, Edward, James, Frederick, Maria ,Rebecca, Letty,and more those sorts of names
lots we new of, lots as come as a surprise to me , I'm as sure as sure can be thoe that there all related, and more to, same as those other cemetery's, they were just ordinary people living there own life in there own time, there were no fancy kings or great names known by others, no fancy big gravstones, not nothing at all much just People gone now to this life, but I will speak more of them and what I know another time ,oral history,
there on the right side as you go in the main entrance, up that little winding path , i know this is true , for i was there, i hope this is of help one day , some of there relatives will look , and they will find there way through my words, all those times long ago I would jump and skip along that path, seems so long ago now, my Mother had great love for the Dead, happy days,
most were born mid to late 1800s ,I think there are more over at the northern bulwell cemetery,
but I was never there, I seen their names on records, I would say some could be right,
pluss on some records its not just the last name that can be spelled differently, where people have marriage records giving a Fathers name say George,
and yet they can not connect a George to an older Family that stands out as true, this is be course on records I have seen William be known as George William, then just William, so if you come across say a George don't be thinking that was the only name he went by,
you have to take no notice of what you think is the right way of researching, you are dealing with people far different from anyways you thought was possible
-
will try to post photo another time
-
Narrow Marsh
books have told people of the great London potteries of borrows so called pals,
they have told of the great Gipsy camps round Lincoln, yes the Parsons lot, but not a soul ever heard of the rugged fight for your life,
the Narrow Marsh of Nottingham, yes the Marshes, right next to and below the great Church of Nottingham, the Mother of the City , St Marys Herself,
in the city long ago the locals were hard hard people, outsiders would not last long,
Gipsys had to be twice as hard,
they are never wrote about, that is good, for people would only lie of them , I know true oral history, I will talk for the Dead
this is Linda's talk
Thora Boswell was born in 1917 in St Martins Yard off Red Lion Street. My branch of the family moved to Nottingham around 1870 starting with my grandfather's wife Roda Boswell nee Heron.
then this is my talk
1912
VIOLENT NOTTINGHAM HAWKER SENT TO GAOL.
James Wiltshire, hawker, of 18, Taylor’s-yard. Red Lion street
a big tribe swept in from Yorkshire, but they had been to this town long before, and other places, they hit this town running, they left an imprint that still rumbles on to this day
Leahcim
-
these are small extracts from much larger articles and books,
Nevile Truman and J R J Kerruish, NOTTINGHAM AND ITS CHURCHES 1449-1949 (1949)
THE history of Nottingham is the history of its two hills and the basin of land lying between them. Five centuries ago the little River Leen wound round the foot of the hills, and beyond it, looking southward, stretched the marshes and the broad River Trent. On one hill stood a great castle ; on the other a great church. From the unknown date in the time of the Anglo-Saxon township when a church was first built on this rock, St. Mary's stood at the very centre of Nottingham's life. The business life of the town and borough throbbed round it. The shopkeepers and artificers in their trades made and sold their wares in the low houses of the narrow streets clustered under the shadow of the great church. And not only was St. Mary's in the centre of Nottingham's life and trade: round it rolled the nation's thoroughfare from south to north.
J. Holland Walker, Transactions of the Thoroton Society, 30 (1926)
An itinerary of Nottingham
Narrow Marsh
ONE hardly recognises Narrow Marsh under its modern name of Red Lion Street which was bestowed upon it in an access of zeal in 1905. I think the authorities must have come to the conclusion that the cup of wickedness of Narrow Marsh was full, and that the very name had something unholy about it and so they thought that by changing the name they could change the character of the inhabitants. Well, their intentions no doubt are very praiseworthy, but in attempting to get rid of the name of Narrow Marsh they have attempted to destroy an extremely interesting relic of the past, and in spite of the official and very prominent notice board displaying the brand new name of Red Lion Street, the name of Narrow Marsh holds its own pretty firmly to-day, and this is not to be wondered at.
A Brief History of Narrow Marsh
by Nottingham hidden history team
by Joe Earp
Narrow Marsh area became notorious in the early 20th century as a very rough area. The area was notorious for its crime, poverty and slums, It was reported that policemen when patrolling Narrow Marsh would only venture in pairs.
James Granger, The Old Streets of Nottingham No. III, Transactions of the Thoroton Society, XII (1908)
I am sorry to say that on October 28th, 1904, name-boards were affixed at the ends of Narrow Marsh entitling it "Red Lion Street." This is a common title for public houses, and an attempt was made to impose it 0n the road about 1821, but to their credit the people of that period appear to have rejected it, and I shall not blame them if they again refuse that unseemly designation, for we ought not to sever one of the chief links with the past. If there must be a change, why not call it "Tanners' Gate," which would keep in memory its old associations ?
Nottinghamshire web site
Narrow Marsh
This Ordnance Survey map of 1884 shows the maze of streets and courtyards that had developed in Broad and Narrow Marsh. Many of the houses were built 'back to back' around a central courtyard.
Entrance to the court was often along a narrow tunnel.
An important feature of the Marshes were the many lodging houses. Red Lion Street, Narrow Marsh The concentration of lodging houses in the area reflects the migrant nature of the working population, and their need to move from job to job. To earn a living, people moved between occupations, and trade to trade. The women worked as lace hands, machinists, cotton winders and charwomen. Many of the men were labourers, hawkers (street sellers), miners and lace workers.
By the early 1900s it became urgent for the Nottingham corporation to tackle housing and health in the Marshes.
The Loggerheads Public House remains standing after most of the area was finally demolished. Red Lion Street Area, 1923
this next bit is by me,
then they built new houses but now they say these are going to be pulled down to,
the new broad marsh centre may be expanded 2016 ,
Narrow Marsh , 1315 ,
Red Lion Street 1904,1905,
Cliff Road 1920s, 30s
when I was young my Mother would take me around this area knocking , that meens trying to sell things door to door, it is called cliff road now, that old pub that was left from the 20s demolition we would go in, and have a bite to eat, its shut down now, lots of old relations would have drank in there, now isent that a strange thing,
the Meadows, Sneinton, St Anns, are areas surrounding the Old Marshes,
Middle Marsh,
Little Marsh,
Broad Marsh,
Narrow Marsh these are the names I have heard ,the Gipsys lived here also long long ago,
if you write Narrow Marsh into your serch engine many photos will come up,
Gipsys would bring their wagons into the town, then when the notion took them,
of they would go, then back again ,
one day the young ones never came back, the Old ones died of, that's about the truth of it.
-
http://cms.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/archives-planofredlionstreet1923.pdf
click on this above and a map comes up, zoom it up till you may read the yard names,
now look at Taylors Yard, wow it backs on to Martins Yard, do you believe it, so Linda's relatives was neighbours, well if they was around the same month, I would say they would be always on the move , and at the top of those Yards is Red Lion Street, Narrow Marsh, and right next to Martins Yard is St Johns Church , I read this got bombed out later and the St Patricks 1880 1979 at the top right of the map is the church I went to as a young boy, the Church got burned out and redeveloped, then relocated to the Meadows area, I was born in an area known as Sneinton just a few streets away from Narrow Marsh, and look where it says the Loggerheads Public House, that was one of the only building still standing after the demolition of the 20s 30s and rebuilding of the area now called Cliff Road,
the Loggerheads is where my Mother would take me for some food when we knocked Cliff road, wow all those years ago Linda's Family maybe went there, the many Wiltshire Men would of drank there, many many Wiltshire Men and every way of spelling the name roamed these areas at one time or another plus they had many pals, dangerous people to ,
SEQUEL TO A HORSE DEAL
these incidents were reported in the Nottingham press
1909
during the hearing a case in which Joseph Thompson, commonly known as Slabbs,” aged 38, hawker, 51, Narrow-marsh, and Frederick Wiltshire, aged 35, horse dealer, living in a travelling van standing in Hawthorne street, the Meadows, were charged with stealing £23 from the person of Samuel Potter, Nottingham horse dealer,
the two prisoners said the prosecutor, each holding an arm, and Wiltshire deliberately took Potter’s gold out of his inside pocket. When Potter resisted, -Wiltshire struck him a violent blow under the jaw. knocking him down, and both men remanded.
see how still in 1909 they are still using the old name Narrow Marsh, that's a good bit of history
this is just local writing, unless you were there in 1909 that's all it will be
1900
THIS DAY'S POLICE NEWS
The nets. were ordered to be confiscated.—Charles Bacon, gipsy, ailing from Shirerbrook. was summoned for aiding and abetting Fred Wiltshire, Richard Elliott. and John Gregory, in tresspassing in search of game
Parliamentary business
Bills & legislation
Committees
Publications & records
Parliament TV
News
Topics
You are here: Parliament home page
by Pete Leary
The Loggerheads Pub was the last remaining Public House and Inn in what was known as Narrowmarsh, (now called Cliff Road) an area immediately South of the Lacemarket in Nottingham's City Centre. It was said to be the 4th oldest surviving pub in Nottingham and dated back to around 1640. For centuries, this was a notorious area and historically dates back to the 9th century. The pub itself was once at the heart of Narrow Marsh and was frequented by Dick Turpin in the 18th century. Today, although not a pub, the building is the only surviving remnant from the area and its fascinating but unmasked past. This history is close to extinction but should and still could play a major role in education, tourism, entertainment and economic growth for Nottingham and the wider community
Pub crawl 1868 style
Starting on the corner of Carrington Street/Broad Marsh - Middle Marsh - Narrow marsh - Red lion Square.
Distance less than half a mile: Pubs..............................................SIXTEEN
http://www.picturethepast.org.uk/frontend.php
search in this link saying Red Lion Street, Narrow Marsh about 40 photos come up,
-
this small extract is from this link below, go to the link for much more in-depth information
I have just highlighted a few words I think researchers would find of interest,
http://www.nottsopenchurches.org.uk/
St John the Baptist, Leenside, was built to cater for the population of working people living on the flood prone areas of Broad Marsh, Middle Marsh and, the most notorious of the three, Narrow Marsh. Collectively, these were known as the ‘Marshes’.
The new church was planned in 1842 and consecrated in 1844.
The church of St John the Baptist, Leenside was located in probably the poorest part of the parish of St Mary the Virgin.
We regret that we are unable to answer queries regarding personal research, family history, etc, or to check on or provide information from parish registers, gravestones, monuments, or any other sources, as we do not hold information other than what is on this site. For this you might find the website of Nottinghamshire Ancestral Tourism useful.
With such a densely populated parish it is likely that a significant number were killed in the 1914-1918 war, but there is no record of a memorial in the 1937 inventory.
A public house, The Loggershead, only a few yards from the north side of St John’s did have a war memorial dedicated to the local men who were killed. This memorial has recently been re-housed within St Mary’s Church, the original mother church of St John the Baptist.
on the 1882 OS map, a gate is also shown leading from Martin’s Yard at the south-west corner along a path to the south porch, and it appears that there was a main west doorway to the church leading directly onto Martin’s Yard.
early in the 1920s large scale housing clearance began. The residents were moved to new housing on council estates around the outskirts of the city The courts, alleys and yards which formed the 1884 parish had passed into history
On the night 8th-9th May 1941 Nottingham was the target of a raid by the German airforce. St John’s, with many other buildings was destroyed by the high explosives and incendiary bombs that rained down on the city.
St John the Baptist Leenside was finally closed and demolished in 1946 ending its one hundred and two years of service.
-
A good bit of history
looks like Hawthorne street was a stopping place for the Wiltshire's
1909 Frederick Wiltshire, aged 35, horse dealer, living in a travelling van standing in Hawthorne street, this is the area called the Meadows, now below William is there seven yeares later in 1916 its just south of the Marshes, Sneinton is to the East, St Anns more northwards but all join, this is where they may have kept there Wagons over the years, ready for when they took the notion to be on the move.
Nottingham
1916
IGNORANT OF THE LAW
FAILURE TO REGISTER. The excuse that he was no scholar was offered by vandweller, named William Wiltshire, 39, of Hawthorne-street, who at the Nottingham Policecourt to-day was charged with being drunk and disorderly and also failing to Register
Now you have living at 25 Fyne Street Sneinton the Wiltshire's also using the name Wilsher same residence different name, same People.
Sneinton Nottingham
1920
A DRUNKEN FRENZY
NOTTINGHAM MAN DISCHARGES GUN IN STREET. The discharging a firearm in Fyne-street last night created quite a sensation among the residents, at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day,
James Wiltshire (45), described as a poacher, living 25, Fyne- street Sneinton
“STAND BACK!” THREAT TO SHOOT NOTTM. POLICEMAN. EXCITING STREET AFFRAY. . An exciting affair took place in Fyne-street last night, as result of which James Wiltshire, aged 46. who resided there appeared at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day
SHOTS IN THE NIGHT
arrested, Wiltshire was found to be mad drunk. Mr. W. E. (defending);
Was he not firing in the air?
He was firing at us, One shot hit the wall in Fyne-street
NOTTINGHAM SHOOTING AFFRAY. PRISONER AGAIN REMANDED. Wiltshire. of Fyne-street. discharging and threatening an officer, Nottingham Guildhall to-day, remanded
NOTTM. HAWKER GETS A MONTH FOR UNPROVOKED ASSAULT.
at the Nottingham Guildhall today James Wilsher 26. hawker. Fyne- Street
1925
NOTTINGHAM MAN. Said to have undergone the punishment of the cat, the birch, and penal servitude, James Thomas Wilsher, hawker, of 25. Fyne-street, Nottingham,
was given two months imprisonment at the Guildhall to-day for being suspected person, and loitering.
-
me
-
This is the story of Hawthorne Street Kings Meadow Road
Thompson the so called writer found one story in 1909 and merited it warranted but a single line
AFFAIRS OF EGYPT 1909
By Thompson
These notes are compiled almost entirely from the large volume weighing seven pounds of Press cuttings collected by the Society's Honorary Secretary On March 15 some so called Gypsies were evicted from a camping ground in Hawthorne Street, Nottingham
AFFAIRS OF GIPSYS 2016
By Me
Nottingham 1909
After numerous written notices and two and one quarter hours of argument, a body of Gipsies were removed from land in Hawthorne street, Nottingham. belonging, Mr. H. Brown and Messrs. Brothers. For two or three years this land has been the free habitat of the Bohemians, the landowners, in co-operation with the city sanitary inspector, determined to them, notice of eviction Mr. Brown's agent, together with two gentlemen from Red Lion-street, two other men' on behalf of Chorley Brothers, and a couple of policemen, at nine o'clock this morning. Perhaps the order had not been taken seriously, for the encampment had yet made the slightest preparation, and the only horse fetched from the fields was promptly sent away when the police were spotted. There were three caravans, in which some 15 people lived, Billy Bacon, pleaded that his only available horse was lame, and refused to quit. Thereupon the two gentlemen from
Red Lionstreet, capable looking, stepped to the front
“The first man who touches my van I'll lay out" intimated Billy, the powerful looking fellow standing over six feet high. The gentlemen from Red Lion-street consulted, and decided that they could not interfere under the circumstances. Meanwhile, one of the owners of the other vans said he was quite willing
"to have a flutter'’ and stand the consequences.
someone was despatched to negotiate
Nottingham 1900
Charles Bacon, gipsy, ailing from Shirebrook. was summoned for aiding and abetting
Fred Wiltshire, Richard Elliott. and John Gregory, in trespassing in search of game, on land belonging the Duke of Portland
Nottingham 1909
REMARKABLE CASE
A story unfolded in the Nottingham Guildhall during the hearing a case in which Joseph Thompson, hawker, Narrow marsh, and Frederick Wiltshire, horse dealer, living in travelling van standing in Hawthorne street, the Meadows, were charged with stealing a leather bag, containing £23 in gold, from the person of Samuel Potter, general dealer, who resides at 9, Victoria place, Fishergate, on Saturday the 4th.
Mr. R. A. Young, who prosecuted, explained that on the date named Potter met the prisoners in the Nottingham Cattle Market, and bargained with Wiltshire for some time about the purchase of a horse. The deal did not come off, but while it was in progress Potter happened to show them his money, Afterwards all three adjourned to a public house, and later in the evening met in the Great Market place. They sat drinking for some time, and Wiltshire introduced Potter to couple of women, the three men set off towards the tramway depot, the two women being some distance behind. On a piece of waste land Wiltshire deliberately took Potter’s purse gold out of his inside pocket. When Potter resisted, Wiltshire struck him a violent blow under the jaw. knocking him down .
threats had bean made against the women in the event of giving evidence, necessary to subpoena. Evidence was then given by the woman referred to Ethel Lakin, 17 Kid street The witness, spoke to seeing the robbery committed. she threatened to give information, and Wiltshire retorted that he would smash a bottle on her head . Wiltshire Offered her £8 to leave the town and let the case fall through, when charged Wiltshire replied that he knew nothing about the £ 23, but Potter was “flashing the money about" Thompson denied the theft. the identity of the other woman concerned, Castle said he had never been able to trace her. She was referred to "Birmingham Annie.'' and had reason to believe that she had left the town
Nottingham 1916
FAILURE TO REGISTER
The excuse that he was no scholar was offered by vandweller named William Wiltshire, 39, of Hawthorne Street
FIGHT AMONGST THE GIPSIES 1918
SEQUEL TO A MELEE
As sequel to regular melee between bands of Gipsies who have settled on a waste piece of land in Hawthorne street, Nottingham, George Smith, 57, popularly known as "Gipsy Smith," appeared at the Nottingham Guildhall to day charged with wilfully damaging a caravan, three violins, and other property, value £20. belonging to basali, a swarthy looking foreigner who has not yet mastered the english language. Smith was also charged with assaulting Barthelmy Ferret, another van dweller. so far as the charges of assault were concerned permission was asked to withdraw them on the understanding that prisoner compensated prosecutor for damage. Mr. Clayton for Smith facetiously remarked that was a demonstration of Gipsy love, adding that prisoner was not an evangelist, though born and bred in a tent. (laughter) Smith ordered to pay the £20 to Basali, Prisoner expressed his gratitude to the magistrates
-
http://www.nottstalgia.com/images/nottingham_1920s_map.jpg
you can zoom this map up, follow the trent to your left, there is the old Wilford toll bridge, just above is Hawthorne street leading on to Kings Meadow road, to your left is old Lenton were the Gipsy Isaac Herron says he liked to stay, just below the toll bridge is Wilford, that's were lots of Gipsys are buried
http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/resources/maps/Nottingham/nottinghamstreetmapc1960.pdf
scroll down eight pages and see Hawthorne Street and Kings Meadow Road, the land where Gipsys would stay was next to the power station and cliffton colliery
in the photo below you will see the river, to the top middle is the places I talk, this photo is from the twenty's so this is more or less how it was
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjs_f78x4TLAhUDNxQKHYYPAG4QjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.britainfromabove.org.uk%2Fimage%2Fepw021043&psig=AFQjCNHm8XjF24wX40pNVIar6ueQqGmYow&ust=1455996453213373
Robert Mellors, Old Nottingham suburbs: then and now Wilford 1914
NORTH WILFORD
By an Order of the Local Government Board, made in 1894, the parish of Wilford was divided, and that part of the parish to the north of the Trent was directed to be called North Wilford. It will surprise some people to be told how large a portion of Nottingham Meadows was in the original parish, and now forms the new parish named
The Wilford Meadow was the land west of what we call Wilford Boad, now the Colliery district, and south of "The King's Meadow." In a perambulation of the boundaries of Sherwood Forest in 1505, the officers started from the King's Castell att Nottingham, "and then by the Ould Trentt to the oulde corse of the watter of Leene (which is the bound between the King's medows and the medow of Wilford " etc. B. B., 413.
Between the King's Meadow and Wilford Meadow, it is probable, the boundary was a great dyke. A lithographic view of Nottingham was taken by Henry Burn in 1845, apparently from the northern boundary dyke of Wilford parish, at the junction of King's Meadow and Wilford Roads. It shows the footpath to the ferry, and the dyke, with a tree prominent in the foreground. A copy of this picture appears in "In and about Notts.," page 248.
Crocuses. At the middle of the last century millions of crocuses were growing on both parts of North Wilford meadows, forming a sight of beauty such as no-one who had seen them could ever forget. They are nearly all gone now. Two fields near the Colliery survive, west of Bosworth road Schools. But why mourn over lost flowers?
The places where they grew are occupied with houses, and the houses are full of children, and the children are more beautiful, and of greater value than the flowers.
Colliery. There are in North Wilford two parts necessarily and permanently divided. In the west section the Colliery is the principal feature. When the Pit was sunk, and the Colliery opened out, the business was for several years carried on in the name of Mr. Saul Isaacs as proprietor, until in 1876 the Clifton Colliery Company, Ltd., was formed. It is now the largest employer of labour in the parish, usually having 1,000 workmen and boys,
Schools.
The Bosworth Road Schools were opened in 1886, suggests that the names of local streets are reminiscent of the end of the Wars of the Roses, and of the Civil War.
NOTTINGHAM POLICE-COURT 1924
BRAWL IN A CARAVAN
For considerable time, magistrates at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day were engaged in hearing a case of alleged theft and assault. Thomas Smith, 28, dealer, 71a, Red Lion-street, William Smith. 57. labourer, 2, Essex-street, and George Smith, 59. hawker living in a caravan in Kings Meadow road were charged with stealing eleven and a quarter yards of linoleum belonging William Wiltshire, senr., a caravan dweller, Kings Meadow road, George Smith was also charged with assaulting William Wiltshire jun, while the later and his Farther were summoned for assaulting George Smith. Mr R.A Young, represented the Wiltshire's, while Mr A.F Heane appeared for the Smiths.For the prosecution it was alleged that the three men entered the caravan of William Wiltshire Senr. In Kings Meadow road, late on the night of February the 28th and stole a role of linoleum.
George Smith who was alleged armed with an iron bar, afterwards struck William Wiltshire jun, who was injured in the groin.
" ATTACKED WITH A SPADE"
It was admitted George Smith was injured on the head, but it was alleged that he was hit by his own son Tommy by mistake.
For the defence it was contended that George Smith had lent Wiltshire Senr money, and as he had been unable to get some of it back he went to the caravan to get the linoleum.
The Wiltshires, George Smith alleged, attacked him with a spade, the result beying he had to be conveyed to hospital, where two stiches were put into his head,
what happened in the caravan, said Mr Heane, was something akin to a drunken brawl.
The summonses against the Wiltshires was dismissed and the bench considered the assault by George Smith proved, but taking all the circumstances into consideration, they imposed a fine of one pound.The charge of theft against the three Smiths was dismissed.
-
from when I was young my Mother would tell of the times and people, one such talk was of the hard Smiths, they are related to lots I talk of, we would visit Gipsy George Smith, he had the far away look in his eyes, he sort of looked at everything without those dark eyes being captured, he would stand straight and true, he always had the neck tie of bright colours, a dark looking fellow, we would go round for a cup of tea, He said and my Mother said we was Cousins, what that means in there manner of thought is not for me to guess, i don't claim ever to be related to a soul, they are both gone now to this world, may they both rest, they spoke some old Romany talk, I telled Linda of only one word , do you know she said she only ever heard Boswells say that word, but like I have said you will hear time and again Red Lion Street mentioned, St Anns, Sneinton and the Meadows, maybe not on the census for the Gipsys was wild and out and about like free birds, but hard Gipsys have passed this way, into the town, do the business, then of round the shires, many times, the Smiths round this way were another great Gipsy Family, manys the Legend trod the streets of Nottingham, there story untold,
THE GIPSY'S PROMISE. NOT'TM. MAN IN TROUBLE AGAIN.
Nottingham 1918
Although he had a considerable number of convictions against him, George Smith, 54, horse dealer, of Albion-Street, who was charged at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day with being drunk and disorderly, received lenient treatment on promising to sign the pledge. According to the police the defendant was creating a disturbance at the entrance to the cattle market, and had caused a great crowd to collect. He had previously been fighting and served a sentence of imprisonment, he bought a horse, and because would not sell it, a man attacked him, and he defended himself. He was arrested. It shall never happen no more, your Honour, promised Smith, who was only fined 30s. on consenting to sign the pledge.
GIPSY AND THE MOTOR CAR
PENALTY FOR USING BAD LANGUAGE
Nottingham 1913
Mr. Dalgleish, of Bobbers Mill, was motoring down Adame-hill yesterday afternoon at the same time as gipsy, named George Smith, of no settled residence, was allowing his horse to rest. For some reason or other Smith used disgusting language concerning motor cars, and Mr. Dalgleish who was accompanied by his wife, proceeded further until he saw Sergeant Clarke and P.c. Mach in whom he drove back in his car to where the gipsy was. A struggle between the officers and Smith took place, both the former being kicked on the legs and hands, and it was some time before the man could be handcuffed and taken to the police-station. In the process Smith fought like a madman, Smith kept up a running fire of interjections during the hearing. Prisoner was fined 7s. 6d. for the bad language, and sentenced to seven days’ imprisonment for the assault. Smith, shouted from the dock to his wife,
" l want to see you before I go; I have got seven days.”
FLAT IRONS AND POKERS. SEQUEL TO PUBLICHOUSE QUARREL. .NOTTINGHAM WOUNDING CHARGE DISMISSED.
Nottingham 1921
the Nottingham Guildhall this afternoon, Frederick John Spencer. 26. hawker, 75. Red Lionstreet, and George Jones alias Spencer. 21. hawker, 95, Red Lion-street were charged with unlawfully wounding George Smith, with intent to grievous bodily harm, shooting with a firearm, also with attempting cause grievous bodily harm to Tom Smith. There was a further charge against Frederick John Spencer possesion of loaded revolver and six rounds of ammunition, The Chief Constable said that at 3.30 p.m. on the 17th George Smith Went to the Crown and Anchor public-house in Sneinton-street, and there he met the two prisoners. Conversation took place and a quarrel arose. One of the prisoners produced a revolver from his pocket, but put back again. Smith afterwards went home, saw to his horse, and then went past the house where the two prisoners lived. Evidently they saw him, and then the proceedings commenced. Flat irons, pokers, and large lumps of wood seemed to have been used quite freely. revolver was in the possession of one of the prisoners, a pellet, or bullet entered the cheek of George Smith. "I'LL. BLOW YOUR BRAINS OUT." He was known as '"' Gipsy Smith," being a gipsy bred and born.
NOT THE EVANGELIST
"GIPSY SMITH”
BEFORE THE NOTTM MAGISTRATES
Nottingham 1920
Alleging that George Smith, hawker. Red Lionstreet, threatened her husband then her and her children Margaret Wheat, married woman. 23, Lomas-yard, Bellar gate, brought proceedings against Smith for threats, and for using abusive language. In her evidence complainant said defendant added it is only a month since he leathered my husband. She was afraid of him. For defendant, Mr. H. B. Clayton said Smith was locally known as Gipsy Smith. The Chairman Mr. W. Hunt, said I think he is pretty well known. Mr. Clayton: He is not the evangelist, although he dwells in a van. he his a man of very excitable nature. The magistrates said they would give Smith the benefit of the doubt, and warning him to- behave himself in the future, dismissed the case.
-
MAULED BY GIPSIES.
CONSTABLE'S ENCOUNTER NEAR LENTON. PRISON FOR TWO "VERY LOW BLACKGUARDS."
Nottingham 1918
exciting the road near Lenton Abbey, led to the appearance in the Nottingham police court to-day of George Smith, 57, gipsy, who had a total of £130 in his pockets, charged cruelty to a horse and assaulting P.c. John and damaging his bicycle to the extent £10 Albert Smith, a son, aged 23, and two young women Maria Elliot and Amy Webster, both Gipsys were also charged with assault. Johnson, a member 1 bounty Force. who was riding a bike spoke to the elder Smith about thrashing a horse, Smith thrashed him with the whipstock, while the younger Smith and one of the women threw bricks at him. Not content with this, all four burled stones at the wheels of the bicycle. Smith, sen., leading off jumping on the wheel twice. Although the constable followed the quartets to Nottingham, where Sergeant Marriott arrested the prisoner for being drunk and ill-treating the horse. Prisoner denied the assault and damage. The two Smiths, however, were described by the Chief Constable as "very Low Blackguards," were each sentenced to two months imprisonment, for the assault, the father in addition being fined 20s. for drunkenness, £5 for cruelty, and £6 for the damage.
MAULED BY GIPSIES, ANOTHER WARRANT AGAINST SMITH.
Nottingham 1918
further warrant for assault granted to the Nottingham magistrates to day against George Smith the Gipsy who was yesterday sentenced to two months' hard labour for assault in a matter near Lenton Abbey. The application for the warrant was made by two dark skinned Belgians, who appeared in court with their heads bandaged, Bench ordered a warrant to be served on the completion of Smith's sentence.
THE GIPSY'S VISIT.
MUCH DAMAGE CAUSED AT A LEEN SIDE HOME.
Nottingham 1919
Gipsy's visit to 12, Lees-yard, where he assaulted Rose Hannah Merrick and destroyed property the value of £l5. led to the appearance of George Smith at the Court to-day, where was ordered to pay damages and costs, Smith who is a general dealer, and resides in Sussex-street, Broad-marsh, visited her house. He forced his way in and assaulted her by striking her in the mouth, after which seized several bunch-s artificial Flowers which she was making and threw them on to the fire. also destroyed expensive china vases and pictures. complainant admitted that defendant had once loaned her money, but deigned she asked him to call at her home to repay him, he acted like a mad bull and wrecked practically everything in the house.
A DERBY DISTURBANCE. NOTTM.
HAWKER HIS WEALTHY SONS-IN-LAW.
Nottingham 1919
A melee in the Derby Cattle Market on Friday, in which prisoner was rescued from custody and a constable had to make use of his staff, had a sequel at the police-court to-day. Joseph Wiltshire, hawker, 6, Gedling-street, Nottingham, was fined 10s. assaulting Pc. Bristow, and for assaulting Special Constable H. A. Wallace (market superintendent), whom he struck several times on the face and body; while Alfred Smith, dealer, living in a van at Cotton-lane, was fined 7s. 6d. for fighting. Bristow apprehended Smith and his antagonist, whereupon Wiltshire (the father-in-law of the men) and others intervened and succeeded in getting one of the prisoners away. Wiltshire then ran off, but was stopped by Mr. Wallace who told the Bench that Wiltshire made a mad struggle for freedom. Wiltshire, against whom there were eight previous convictions. including one for police assault, stated that his sons-in-law had a lot of money in their possession and was afraid they would be robbed.
-
COUNTY OFFICE
A Gipsy Named Smith
Leicester 1837
Was charged with breaking a window at the Crown and Magpie beer_bouse, because the landlady refused to furnish him with spirits, for the very sufficient reason that she had none on the premises. A policeman joked to the violence of the prisoner's conduct, and the Mayor asked him if he had any ques- tions to put to the witness. Prisoner (surveying the policeman): Really I don't know — is this the man as took me? (Loud laughter.) I was so tossicated in liquor at the time, I don't recollect him ; and I'm sure i didn't know I was at the Crown and Magpie — l thought I was at the Waggon and Horses. (Laughter.) The Mayor : I have to congratulate you, Sir, on the great improvement in your appearauce since I first saw you— you were then as dirty and as wretched a looking object as could possibly be, but the gaol has altered you for the better. Prisoner: I was always likely to look lost and dirty, when the Police pulled me about so. The Mayor : Did the Police pull that long beard into existence which you wore when you first made your appearance ? (Laughter.) The prisoner admitted that the Police were not answer- able for his beard, and, in reply to the Bench, said, that he lived in the lanes with his wife in the warm weather, but was not a gipsy altogether : he had led a wandering life from his birth, like his father before him. The landlady stated that the gipsy's friends had re- paired the window, and the Magistrates then said that the prisoner had rendered himself liable to a fine of £5 but they would mitigate it to 5 s. and the costs, or, in default, seven — " I'll pay the fine for him, your honour," exclaimed a gruff voice from the body of the room. The Mayor: You're so prompt, that you make us almost regret we did not inflict the whole penalty— l don't doubt but you would have paid the £5 for your friend as cheerfully as the 5 s. (Laughter.)
-
Thomson when writing of so called Gipsys of Hawthorne Street Nottingham also talks more
AFFAIRS OF EGYPT 1909
By Thompson
The year 1909 was ushered in by the sequel to the Boxing Day
quarrels of the Gypsies encamped on the Bohemian Estate, Southend, This estate is partly owned and partly rented by about twenty-five or thirty families of Gypsies, who make it their permanent home.two distinct camps : the converted Gypsies, and a varied mob of unregenerate pos-rats and ' mumpers '
then Thomson goes on to say this about the Elliott's, he seems to know round Lincolnshire
AFFAIRS OF EGYPT 1909
By Thompson
engaged in practising tricks. It is on record that Sarah Elliott and
Mary Ann Smith were fined £10 each at Coventry on May 23 for obtaining
£2, 5s. for a goat-skin rug by hoaxing and intimidation ; that Alice Elliott
and her niece, Isabella Elliott, were fined at Knaresborough on September
5 for obtaining £5 from a Boroughbridge publican by means of a trick
at Willenhall on June 21 for obtaining sums of 18s. and 10s. 6d. by false
pretences. Who these Elliotts were it has been impossible to ascertain. In all
probability they did not belong to the well-known Lincolnshire family, but to an
entirely ;distinct family (and one not renowned for its law-abiding character)
that may sometimes be met with around Bristol or London.
but who are these Elliott's who new the Smiths and Wiltshire Family's of Nottingham
Nottingham 1918
exciting the road near Lenton Abbey, led to the appearance in the Nottingham, George Smith, 57, gipsy, assaulting P.c. John and damaging his bicycle, Albert Smith, 23, and two young women Maria Elliott and Amy Webster, both Gipsys were also charged with assault.
Nottingham 1900
Charles Bacon, gipsy, was summoned for aiding and abetting
Fred Wiltshire, Richard Elliott. and John Gregory, in trespassing in search of game, on land belonging the Duke of Portland
having a look at the Gregory family you mentioned, and saw that son Henry appeared to marry a Letty/Letitia/Lettice Wiltshire. This in turn led me to look at the Wiltshire/Wilsher families, and I think I have found out that Richard Smiths wife, Mary, was a Wiltshire.
Now the age is slightly out, but a Joseph and Lydia Wilsher had a daughter Mary Ann baptised at Normanton on Trent 15th Sep 1816. Then there is a baptism on freereg for Lydia d/o Joseph and Lydia Wiltshire of Saint Ann's St., tin man, Nottingham St. Mary, 22nd Jan 1837. This Lydia would fit agewise with the widowed Lydia Elliott who is with Richard and Mary on the 1871 census and make her sister to Mary.
Also there is a baptism at Saxilby in 1821 of Thomas s/o Joseph and Liddy Wiltsher and 1813 at Swineshead, Lincs, of Joseph s/o Joseph and Lydia Wilshaw. Joseph marries a Sarah and is in and around Newark and manages to appear on the 1861 census twice, at both Newark and New Sleaford Lincs.
Nottingham 1861
Petty Sessions
May 3rd.— (Before the Rev.. J. D. Beecher, Matilda Elliott and Sarah Wiltshire, two gipsies, were charged by James Carter, draper and grocer, of Upton, with having stolen one print dress, one pair of boots, one pair of shoes, two pairs of socks, and one pair of gloves, on the 30th of April. It appeared that the two women went to the shop of Mr. Carter, of Upton, and asked to be shown some goods, giving their names Smith and Wilkinson, and said that they lived in Upton, they succeeded in obtaining goods to the amount of £5 10s. by false pretences. Information was given to Inspector Home the following day, who shortly afterwards apprehended the prisoners, and found the property upon them. Committed for trial at the next sessions to be holden at Retford.
just another small piece of information on the evolution leading to the extinction of the stopping fields of Hawthorne street Kings Meadow Road,
Nottingham1931
HORSES RESCUED FROM FIRE.
ALARMING EARLY MORNING STABLE BLAZE.
SHOWMAN'S PLUCK. CITY FIRE BRIGADE'S BUSY TIME.
Nottingham 1931
The gallant rescue of two horses from a burning stable in Hawthorne-street, The Meadows, Nottingham, early this morning, was effected by Albert Ashley, a travelling showman, living in a caravan on a piece of waste ground in Hawthorne-street. was at about half-past one when the City Fire Brigade received an alarm from the Arkwright-street box, and they turned out with three engines to the premises William Hill, a firewood dealer, of 94, Briar-street, who rents certain stabling sheds and yard in Hawthorne-street for the purpose his business. There was no doubt about tho necessity for the three engines, for the firemen found the flames had obtained a dangerous hold on the stabling and shed, whilst several tons of old railway sleepers were blazing merrily away. Several people occupy caravans nearby, and so fierce was the heat that the vehicles had to be moved back. Ashley, who was one of the first on the scene, heard the horses whinnying, and he entered the yard and opened the stable-door to liberate the two horses, thus saving them from being burned to death, for the stable was practically gutted.
-
The Story of The Gold Coined People
there was a portrait photo of my GrandMother, that hung on a wall above what looked to me like a shrine, She was what is known as a Rawney Monition, She was one of the last of the true Gold Coin People, in each ear She had a Gold Sovereign, my Mother said it had to be an half Sovereign for the weight would be to much if the full one dangled down, then on Her chest She wore the Gold Coin Broach a big looking thing, they say it was called a Five pound Gold Coin, She wore a bonnet with a small feather in, She was Regale and of the highest order, the Woman I was told would wear the Gold Coin rings, you would either in the past make them yourself or have a ring made from a gold smith, I was speaking to a man says his names Stanley from down the way, he said the old Stanley's called them the raparound, now my Mother told of long years when She was small, old relatives told Her of long ago talk, its at least the middle times of the 1800s, but they themselves could of been telling what there Old People told them, but my Mother told of how the Woman would plait Coins into their hair, this was more or less a looking thing, but She also telled how She was telled that they would hide Golden Coins in their hair, so the Coins could be safe, She says they could be woven in, in such a way you could not see them or they could not fall out ,it was there answer to having a bank account, this is what as been passed down to me, oral history, the old photo of my GrandMother is the seeing record of such things of Gipsys now gone, I saw my own Mother with Golden Coins in Her ears and on Her fingers, plus Golden Coin Broachers that where hand made and welded together, I have always worn the Gold Coins round my kneck, and hand made Golden Coin rings, this is the truth of today, also the Woman liked to wear beaver skin coats, for when it rained the water would not penetrate, they were far from the weak and downtrodden you may hear of, they were much more powerful than anyone now alive will ever know, they have been left out of history, these are the Gold Coin People
-
People have often wrote about Gipsys in a way that they create God in their own image, they express their visions of how they see life ,they have often said they seek, but it was themselves they were looking for, it was themselves they were writing about, they felt the evolution of man from the plains of Africa when the monkeys first came down from the trees, they felt and saw these things in the life of the Gipsy, but they created a false God, in time much of their work will be shown for the truth it does not posses,
Extract from
Hunter And Hunted
Eleanor Sarasohn
August 28, 2015
Big game hunting implies that a hunter is in pursuit of the most dangerous “big game” in the area. Africa’s “Big Five” are elephant, rhinoceros, Cape buffalo, lion, and leopard. American big game animals are bears, moose, and bison. Tigers and rhinos are the big game hunted on the Indian subcontinent.
Lost Civilizations and Great White Hunters - Imperialist Adventure Literature
extract from an article in Voyages Extraordinaires series by Cory Gross
As the British Empire grew to encompass a fourth of the whole world, becoming the great empire upon which the sun never set, the far flung lands under Queen Victoria's dominion inspired writers and poets alike to craft tales of daring adventure in the name of Crown and Country. These stories soon grew to form their own genre of Scientific Romance literature, the precursor to Science Fiction, with it's own archetypes and stereotypes: Imperialist Adventure.
The Great White Hunter stereotype comes from this genre, as almost invariably, the hero or one of the heroes of the story was just such a character... A white man who sought wealth and excitement in the darkest corners of the Empire. And indeed, this Great White Hunter was usually in search of something like a lost civilization, to serve as the particular catalyst for the novel or more frequently, penny dreadful.
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle made a late entry into the genre with one of it's most classic tales: 1912's The Lost World. In this story of a lost plateau where dinosaurs still reign, Conan Doyle manages to bring together the trends of Scientific Romance and Imperialist Adventure through both its scientific and its imperialistic ambitions. On the former hand we have the robust scientist George Edward Challenger, who's interest in the Lost World is scientific discovery, not unlike the exploration tales of Jules Verne (eg: Journey to the Centre of the Earth). But on the former hand we have the Great White Hunter John Roxton and the attitudes which the entire Challenger party carry with them from England, including a disgust at humanity's family tree and a fairly typical western desire to "solve" the problems of the "savages" for them... An arguement for imperialism ever since Rome and still present today.
some People have been excluded from history, some writers have created a false account of the history of Gipsys, through d.n.a study's I have read Gipsys in these lands and Europe are of a mixed gene pool, a mixed language, these things reflect the very nature of these peoples,
Yorkshire 1850
Murderous Affray in Westgate. — Three gipsies, named Wm.Wilshaw, sen., Wm. Wilshaw, jun., and John Winter, were charged with an assault and riot, in Westgate, on Monday evening. It appeared from the evidence on Monday evening, they were at the travellers rest, in Westgate, when the prisoners and several other gipsies came into the room. They had been sat there a considerable time apart from the rest of the com- pany, when the elder Wilshaw jumped up and declared he had had his pocket picked by some of the complainants' party. This appeared to have been a preconcerted scheme, for im- mediately the charge was made, one of the gipsies ran and secured the house doors, and put the keys into his pocket, others armed themselves with pokers, tong's, and declared they would have the money from some of those who had been sitting with them. Favell and the others protested that the old man could not have been robbed by them, if he had been robbed at all, as none of them had been near him. The gipsies commenced an attack with their formidable weapons, which some few of the others resisted. The greater part of them, however, endeavoured to escape from the house, and finding all egress from the doors impossible, ran upstairs, pur- sued by the gipsies, and escaped only by jumping from the windows into the street A most desperate fight ensued be- tween those who were left and the gipsies, but at length the former were glad to make their escape by the same means as their companions, several of them with their heads most seriously cut and bleeding The gipsies were thus left in entire possession ot the house. the hole neighbourhood was in a tumult, and several of the local police arrived the gipsies refused to open the door, and they were compelled to effect an entrance by the window. They succeeded in appre- hending the three prisoners, but the remainder of the party effected their escape. The youngest of the prisoners was most severely wounded on the head, and his leg had been very much bitten by a dog. — The Magistrates convicted the two Wilshaws in the penalty of 40s. each, and costs, or two months' imprisonment. The fines were paid. The prisoner Winter, who is upwards of 70 years of age, was discharged on paying costs, it appearing that he had not taken any part in the affray.
-
I will try to help Relations of the future or now who may look for the People I write of, oral history as telled how the ones I talk of were entwined with the Smiths, the records I have put on through these posts supports this, another Family named Winter was through oral history known, but to be truthfull i don't know if there are any records to support the old oral tradition, i have just found these few records above and below showing they were going round together, they could or could not be related i don't know, its just a start for others who will seek their Relatives, good luck, i will put on a few more names later in other posts to help you in the small way i can, i want to show you your great Gipsy People of the past that no one was bothered to think that they even lived, i was told of them when i was young they have always been the greatest of legends
Yorkshire July 1875
Serious Assault by a Gang of Gipsies.— On Monday, Wm. Wilsher, sen., Wm. Wilsher, jun., Ed- ward Wilsher, and James Winter, four gipsies, were charged with a violent assault on James Pears, landlord of the White Swan Inn at Brayton. Mr. Bantoft appeared for the prosecution, and Mr. Wainwright for the defendants. The latter offered to compensate complainant for his injuries, and to pay the costs, but the Bench objected The complainant said on the 28th ult. the men with others came into his house, and the eldest had a glass of ale. They commenced to quarrel, and he told them to go out. Wm. Wilsher, sen., struck him on the lip with the butt end of a whip, cutting it open and knocking his teeth out Wm. Wilsher, jun., and Edward Wilsher struck him on the head and face with the butt ends of their whips. They kicked him till he became insensible, and he had since been under medical treatment. The men were shod with wooden clogs, finished with iron.— George Collins, of Burn, said he was returning from the fair at Selby and went into the White Swan for a glass of beer, when he saw the landlord on the floor, and the prisoners kicking him. Witness went towards the group, whereupon they used the butt ends, of their whips about his head. He fought his way through them, and picked up the landlord. While he was doing this, the party struck and kicked him repeatedly as well as Pears, who was bleeding and insensible.— Johuso Simpson! said he was in the house, and said " What a shame !" Immediately one of the men (though not one of the accused) kicked him in the face, cut his lip open, and knocked a tooth out— Dr. Gray, of Selby, said he had attended the prosecutor and described the injuries he had received.— The Bench committed the men for trial at the sessions.
Yorkshire August 1875
SAVAGE ASSAULT BY GIPSIES. four men, named William Wilsher the Elder (60), William Wilsher the yornger (24), Edward Wilsher (21), and James Winter (19), all gipsies, rendered to their bail _ upon a charge of having unlawfully and maliciously inflicted grievous bodily harm upon Mr Michael Pearse, a publican, landlord of the White Swan, Brayton. Mr Vernon Blackbain prosecuted, Mr Wheelhouse and Mr Tindal appearing for the defence. In opening the case, Mr Blackburn stated that, though there were four separate indictments against the men, it was not an assault with _ intent to commit a felony and although they were gipsies they were not thieves, therefore It must be taken out of the ordinary category. It appeared there had been a dispute about a wager, in which they used their riding whips. They had paid £lOO into court, and now appeared to receive judgment. So far as the prosecution was concerned did not at the time know so much about the men as he did now, and he had no desire to prosecute, therefore he (Mr Blackburn) would be glad if the Chairman could see his way clear to bind them over their own recognisances come for judgment whenever they might be called upon.—The Chairman read the prosecutor’s depositions, from which it appeared that a most savage assault had been committed. The men were differing in the public-house, and upon the prosecutor remonstrating with them William Wilsher the elder twisted the lash of his whip round his hand and struck him on the lip with the butt end, knocking one of his teeth out. Both he and the elder son belaboured him with their whips, the latter knocking him down by giving him a blow on the cheek. The others then joined in kicking and striking him in a most brutal manner. The prosecutor had been under a doctor’s care ever since, and was still suffering great pain.—The Chairman, having read this, said it was not a case for treatment as a common assault. The men could have their £lOO back, but the sentence the Court would be that they should each be imprisoned for three months with hard labour.
DERBYSHIRE 1892
BAKEWELL. Petty sessions —Gipsies, Frederick Wilshaw. another travelling hawker of the same class, was fined ss. and costs for allowing two horses to stray on the highroad near Hassop Station. Joseph Johnson, who did not appear, was also fined ss. and costs for precisely similar offence the same time and place. Jane Winter, another of the gipsy gang, was fined ss. and costs for allowing two of her horses stray the highway on the same occasion.
-
Another Family that could or could not be Related is a Family named Hartley from Scotland
Oral history as past down was Williams Wife came from Scotland, in records She is said to be registered in Yorkshire, my Mother when young would plait Her hair and She would tell of the old history, my Mother telled me of these times, She said She was born round a place named Musselburgh in the mid to late 1800s, on a record that was shown to me it says Her Fathers name was Hartley, who Her Mother was I don't know, also the first name She was known by was not the one used on any record I have seen of Her, i think the two Williams below are Her Husband and Son, who Walter is i don't know but Her Husband sure as lots of names so it could be Him, young William thoe is only about 14 not 20, and the name he gives as David could be a clue, my Mother telled of a young boy who died, I always thought She meant Her Mothers Son, but now it could mean Young WIlliam had a Brother, or his Grandad was named David Hartley and a Child that died was named after Him , who knows it could or could not be a clue, these are rip roaring Gipsy People of their own day, so the Hartleys of Scotland could be related to these great People, who the Hartleys are I do not know, I did ask Vince once, he asked His Wife who I think is a Boswell and knows things for Shes in with the Church, She said they were Gipsy People, who ever they are thoe it seems like they could be Related
Nottinghamshire 1907
ALLEGED FALSE PRETENCES AT NEWARK.
Hartley, alias Walter Wiltshire, no fixed abode, was charged Newark Police-court this morning, before the Mayor (Councillor H. E. Braneton),. with obtaining a guinea with false pretences, from Edmund Crow, saddler, Mill-gate, Newark. Prosecutor said that on Thursday morning prisoner came into his shop and said he was from Catesby and Co. with cork lino. They had been fitting up the Clinton Arms, he said, and had nine or ten yards left over from the job. and they were authorised to sell it regardless of cost in order to save carriage back to the factory. He showed one of Catesbys cards, which wes printed: “We authorise our workmen to sell all remnants re- gardless of cost to save carriage back to our warehouse.” This Satisfied witness that it was Cateeby’s, and he gave prisoner one guinea for the stuff. Subsequently made inquiries at the Clinton Arms, and in consequence gave information to the police. On this evidence the Chief Constable asked for a remand until Monday. Bail was asked for and granted in two sureties of £25 each, and prisoner Himself in £5O.
Nottingham 1910
NOTTINGHAM MAN CHARGED WITH AN OFFENCE COMMITTED IN 1903.
A case illustrative the long arm of the law came before Messrs. T. Ships tone and J. E. Pendleton at the Nottingham Summons Court to-dav, when William Wiltshire, alias Hartley, of 1, Kelk's-yard, Count-street, Nottingham, was summoned for using obscene language September 7th, 1903, and for assaulting Police-Constable Manners May 26th. The evidence showed that seven years ago the defendant did not appear answer (be summons, and warrant had been taken out against him. Last Thursday assaulted Police-Constable Manners/land this afforded opportunity of charge being preferred against- him. The Bench overlooked the first offence, and sentenced him 21 days' imprisonment for assaulting the constable.
Derbyshire 1914
USELESS VARNISH.
William Wilsher (20), hawker, giving his address as 26, Bridgehouses, Sheffield, was charged at Chesterfield, to-day, with committing what the -Mayor (Alderman E. Shentall) “a very mean trick.” Two charges of obtaining money by false pretences were preferred against the youth, who is the son of Sheffield hawkers. on Friday', the 13th inst., prisoner called at her house and asked if she wanted to buy some varnish, saying he was a varnisher, that he had been doing work at Mr. Logging house at Brampton, and that the varnish he had over his master was allowing him to sell. She told him she did not want any varnish, but he produced bottle and a piece of cloth and applied some “varnish” out of the bottle to an old chair. The stuff seemed all right and he offered to sell the bottleful for 2s. She ultimately bought it for 9d. Her son was about to “try” the varnish, but none would come out of the bottle, and examination showed a second cork lower down the neck of the bottle. This cork was pushed in and the liquid that came out was nothing but coloured water. Witness afterwards identified the prisoner at the police station. Mr. Frank Stokes, paint and varnish manufacturer. said the mixture in the two bottles produced was 25 per cent, water, with a small quantity of linseed oil and Bismarck brown. As a varnish the stuff was absolutely useless and was not worth a penny.
Prisoner pleaded guilty on both charges, The Bench decided to convict, and the Chiefconstable announced a conviction at Sheffield against the prisoner, who gave the name of" David Hartley" Mrs. Wilsher hereupon burst into tears and she besought the Bench “not to let her darling go down.” The uproar she created led to her being ejected from the Court. "We consider it a very mean trick to defraud a blind woman,” observed the Mayor to young Wilsher, “and you will be fined £2. including costs, on each charge, or one month’s imprisonment for each offence.”
-
just a few story's of the WoodWards and Wiltshires, the places they stopped at, the adventures they got up to, some of the People they lived amongst, People they met along the way, I will just put a few articles on that I find, there's so many names I keep coming across, I don't evan know who they are, I hope by sharing the story's I know and the story's I find, I hope it will be of help to others, there's so many names, so many life's, I,ll keep trying for a while longer to show People the great unwritten, I will do my best to help all of them, the great Gypsy People, there's so much strength, its hard to understand why People do not see what I see, why they do not feel what I feel, I will try and do the right thing
Derbyshire 1881
Bakewell Petty Sessions
A Gipsy Encampment At Stoke
Joseph Wiltshire, Attercliffe Common, summoned for making a bonfire on the side of the highway on the 26th of May in the parish of Stoke, to the danger of the public— Defendant did not appear. sergeant Fern stated that he found the defendant camping at the side of the highway, there was within three feet from the side the road and 50 feet from the centre of the road a large fire, He told him he had been repeatedly warned and being of no use, he would summon him. defendant was very abusive when spoken to about the illegality of this " ho" he replied "I know nineteen points of the law, and I,ll teach you the twentieth." He was a low pot hawker and gipsy horse dealer. cloths were hanging out to dry by the side of the road, and there appeared to be quite a small colony of the tribe camping on the side of the road with a roaring fire. Fined 2s. 6d 10s. 6d. costs.
Keeping a Dog Without a Licence
The same defendant was also summoned for keeping a dog without a license at the same time and place as the above. Sergeant Fern proved the case and the Bench imposed penalty of 5s. 10d with 10s. 6d. costs
Allowing A Horse To Stray.
A third summons was also issued against the same defendant for allowing a horse to stray on the highway, the parish of Sheldon on the 27th of May. Alcock proving the case said i was on the road leading from Ashford to Taddington, about 10.30 p.m. when I came upon some horses straying in the road, and further on a large fire by the side of the road and two wagons. it appears that Wiltshire having removed from Stoke made his way to the picturesque valley of Taddington Dale where he pitched up his tent but he found no peace evan there. fined 1s. and 10s. 6d. costs.
Another Gipsy's Horse at Large.
Emmanuel Woodward, a gipsy hawker, traveling in the company of Wiltshire was summoned by P.c Alcock, of Taddington, for permitting a horse to stray on the highway between Ashford and Taddington, on the 27th of May. .fined ls. and 10s. 6d. costs
Derbyshire 1884
Derbyshire Quarter Sessions
Alleged False Pretences.
Thomas Willshaw, 17, hawker, and David Woodward. 17, hawker, were indicted for obtaining. by means of false pretences, two coats, value £1 Is., the property of Ann Chatterton. at Glossop, on the 2nd of September, 1884. —No doubt the men had obtained the goods and disposed of them. The question was whether there was any agreement to purchase them. If they thought the prisoners agreed to purchase the goods even if they did not pay for them, they could find no bill, then there would be question of debt. If they thought there was no contract to purchase the goods, then unquestionably the prisoners did obtain them by means of false pretence. He thought they would be able to find a bill, if the too witnesses adhered to what they said before the magistrates. After hearing several witnesses the Chairman said he did not think the case was one for a jury,The case broke down, and the prisoners were discharged.
-
"BOLD RODNEY" INN, BRAMPTON.
The WoodWards and Wiltshires I have found were stopping for a while in a place called Bold Rodney Yard, in 1913 i don't know how long for or evan if they new each other, there are lots of names round that yard in Chesterfield over the years, I will put a few storys up of the WoodWards Smiths and Wiltshires plus other names that come into the storys of the times and place of this land where Gipsys stayed, on the next page I will write about what I find about the place called the Bold Rodney yard
below it says how Thomas Wiltshire was there, and how hes with someone called Thomas Higginbotham, I,ll have to look for him another time
Derbyshire 1913
The Linoleum Layers
Charges Of False Pretences Dismissed
How goods were sold as result of "puffing", at. Whittington Moor, led to the appearance of two van-dwellers at the chesterfield County Police Court two charges of having obtained money by false pretence on November 27th last year with intent The names were Thomas Wiltshire and Thomas Higginbotham They pleaded not guilty to having obtained under such pretences 16s. 6d. from Herbart Collie, Whittington Moor labourer, and 12s. from Annie Shaw, wife of a shopkeeper, Whittington Moor. Both defendants were defended Mr A. F- Neal. From the evidence it appeared that the men called on the people from whom they obtained the money and told them that they were engaged with a number of men in laying linoleum at a large house in the district, and as there had been some left over they would sell the surplus for beer money divided among the workmen. The defendants said to be wearing white aprons, and they gave the impression that they were workmen. The linoleum was not-thoroughly examined by the purchasers before the defendants were paid the money for it. Mr collis, in his evidence, said Wiltshire told him that there were eight men and one boy working at the big house, and the linoleum he bought he stated it was worth £2. he asked 16s. 6d. for it 2s. for each of the men and 6d. for the boy. Mr Neal: Did you think these workmen were robbing their master' Witness Yes sir. Did you think they had got the right to sell their master's property for 16s. when it was worth £2 for beer? No answer. Did you believe the tale of the big house and they were working there, did you think you had the right to buy? did you think that it was cheap?—No sir. What then Did you think it was dear?—No sir, I never touched it. i thought it was all right. Now, what as made you regret it? do you think you paid too much for it? is that what the trouble is about? —Yes- Now tell me straight is that why you are here because you bought it a bit too dear?—Yes. Yes Well what possible case could you call after that? Ald. Markham: did you part with the money wisely. I don’t know, sir. I thought it would be all right. Ald. Markham; Did you feel the linoleum? Witness: I never touched it. I never put my finger on it. Mrs Shaw deposed to paying 12s. for some of the linoleum. i was told that she was getting a bargain, but when she went to roll out the linoleum with a knife it did not need cutting. You could break it right across she said
Mr Neal: Did jou examine the oilcloth before you paid for it? Witness: No.I didn’t till they had gone. In fact, you thought you had come across some respectable British working men who could sell their masters' property to get beer for themselfs. They looked like respectable working men. You don’t tell the magistrates that tale do you?—Yes I do. ... P.c. selvey spoke to Wiltshire at Brampton. with Higginbotham, some days after the sale of the linoleum. On being identified as one of the men who sold the linoleum, Wiltshire ran in one direction, and went into the Rodney yard The constable followed him. but was unable to catch him or Higginbotham, who ran in the opposite direction Mr Neal contended that there was no evidence that any statement made by the men was not true. probably it was not. but had not been made out there. "Men like these" he said."like many others they live by there wits, but if people are foolish enough buy things, because they think they are cheap, I ask you to say that there is no case made out. It is no offence in England to sell things too dear, or a good many shopkeepers. I think, would be here.” (Laughter.) he admitted that the men had done some ‘‘puffing,” but that was no offence. If people, he said liked to buy pigs in a poke they must buy them. he pressed it as a question of law that there was not a statement made that amounted to false pretences. " Supposing,” he added, "that these goods were worth twice as much?” Mr Smith (the assistant magistrates’ clerk); They should not have been here then. (Laughter.) The Chairman (Aid. Markham) said the men had been very ably defended by Mr Neal. There was no doubt about it that they did obtain the mony by false pretences and by means of a trick, but the evidence was not sufficiently strong to convict. He had no doubt that the people had been defrauded by them. They would have to pay the costs
-
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwisnKCEwuvLAhVCfRoKHaFQBkgQFggjMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.picturethepast.org.uk%2Ffrontend.php%3Fkeywords%3DRef_No_increment%3BEQUALS%3BDCCC001305%26pos%3D2%26action%3Dzoom&usg=AFQjCNEZCC6LSpc_KlHw8I6Tk2osDYAazA
The Bold Rodney Yard
The link above is from a web site called Picture My Past, click on to see the old yard at Brampton Chesterfield Derbyshire
Chesterfield, the Bold Rodney Wheatbridge Road, Brampton closed about 1983 it was transformed into Ziggis fun pub and then ended up as Dynasty Chinese restaurant Apparently named after Admiral Rodney
Derbyshire 1845
27 September 1845 Deaths
Aged 83. at Manchester, John Bracewell. he was supposed the last man living who was in the action with Rodney, in the destruction of the French fleet under Count Grasse, in the West Indies, April 12. 1782. The above death we copy into our obituary from the Globe to rectify the error into which the Globe as fallen one of the survivors of Lord Rodney’s action now residing in Chesterfield, of the name of Richard Turner, and "was board Lord Rodney’s ship", the gallant veteran enjoys most excellent health, and takes great delight recounting his perilous adventures, and "fighting his battles o’er again". —E.d. D.C
Derbyshire 1911
Identifying A Foul
Brampton Men Accused of Theft at Ridgeway. A mystery surrounding the disappearance of a Ridgeway farmer’s fowl resulted in two Chesterfield men, named Thomas and John Woodward, van dwellers of Rodney Yard, Brampton, being arrested. It was, stated, however, at the Eckington Police Court, on Monday, when the two men were brought up. that a fowl, which was found in their possession had been given to them. The fowl which was said have been stolen belonged to Lewis Taylor, of Stuben Hill Farm. Ridgeway. On March 27 he said, he missed a fowl, similar to the one produced in Court. Florence Edith Poile. married woman, of Ridgeway, said that she saw the two with a trap, and she noticed one of them pick something up off the road. When the man got up again, she added, she noticed that had got a fowl. He wrung its neck and put the bird in a cart. P.c. Hudson stated that he went Brampton and saw' the men Woodward, and found that the men were the men. w’ho had been to Ridgeway buying old iron. When interrogated, John admitted they had stolen a fowl from Ridgeway, and eaten it. Later, however, he said," it was in the house, and produced it. on the way to the police station John declared that a woman named Mrs. Fidler gave them the fowl. Mr. A. J. Hopkins, of Chesterfield, who defended, pointed out that the only evidence the prosecution had brought was that of the prosecutor, who'could only identify the fowl produced in Court by the head and legs. a lad named William Mitchell, employed by Mrs. Fidler. declared that he caught a fowl on the instructions of Mrs. Fidler, and gave it to John Woodward. The bird was "sick” and they did not expect it would live. Mrs. Fidler corroborated this story and evidence having been given by the men Woodward, who denied the charges, Bench gave them the benefit of the doubt and dismissed the case.
Derbyshire 1848
CHESTERFIELD BOROUGH COURT. (Before E. G. Maynard, Mrs. Elizabeth Race, of Manchester, the owner of some property situated in the Rodney yard, Brampton, was summoned, under the act for the removal nuisances, for permitting a nuisance, arising from cesspool, ashes pit, &c., to exist in the said yard. Mr. Cox, of the Rodney public house, appeared for Mrs. Race. Dr. Walker was examined as to the state of the property in question. He said that on the 3rd of November he inspected certain premises the back the Rodney, and found a cesspool completely filled with noxious matter, which was in fluid state, and was running over into drain, and from thence into an adjoining field. The noxious miasma arising from this cesspool he (Dr. Walker) considered to be injurious in the health of persons residing in the locality alluded to. The Bench made an order for the removal of the nuisance complained of on Monday. It was mentioned that several nuisances had been immediately removed complaint being made by the inspector appointed under the Board of Guardians.
Derbyshire 1853
BRAMPTON. TO BE SOLD BY PRIVATE CONTRACT
A CLOSE of LAND
In the parish of Brampton, and near to the Town of Chesterfield, lying between the Turnpike Road there and the river Hipper, with the small building to the north east extremity therof, adjoining to the Bold Rodney Public House, and occupied therewith, the whole containing by estimation 3a. 2b. I6p. The Land presents considerable frontage to the Road, rendering a large portion of it suitable for Building purposes. Immediate possession may be given. For further particulars, to treat for the purchase, apply to Messrs. SHIPTON and HALLEWELL, Solicitors, Chesterfield. 17th June, 1853.
-
I have been researching for records around The lands known as the Bold Rodney Yard Brampton, I,v got lots to say about the Family's that I have been talking about, I have found lots of information, everyone will judge with there own eyes thoe, you see it was only the other day I came across Brampton, but since then I,v realised how that unknown small place was quite the hub, any one who as ever been to Leeds train station will know what I mean, when you come from a city like Nottingham or Sheffield with their smart but localised lines only to wonder at the mad Hustle and bustle of Leeds, well believe it or not I believe Brampton to have been one such a place for Gipsys and also to full English hawkers, I will try and explain what I mean, it will take a few pages but it is very relevant to all people seeking their Relatives, there is much to be learned, I have been surprised at how many hawker types of people there was, I hope it will be of help for all people researching, I think Brampton will not be an isolated case, I have heard of down the Kent way, how not only the Gipsys but say London folk would go fruit and veg picking In the summer, even after a time some would mix as in marriage, I have heard of the London Costermongers I think you call them and Hawker type people mixing with Gipsys, I think I have found the Hub that I think Brampton was, if you just listen to what I have to say you may agree,
So the story starts here, now I haven't forgot the Woodwards or Smiths, and I would never leave the Wiltshire's and all the other Familys behind, but we must retrace our steps, if only to understand ourselves and the ones we meat and mix with on a day to day basis
A record Of An Advertisement in 1779
This Day is published, price only One Shilling, illustrated with a neat and correct Map of Great-Britain, describing the principal Roads and chief Towns, on a large Scale. OWEN's New BOOK of ROADS: OR, A DESCRIPTION of the ROADS of Great-Britain Being a COMPANION to OWEN's Compleat BOOK of FAIRS. CONTAINING. An Alphabetical Lift of all the Cities, Towns, and remarkable Villages, in England and Wales the Counties in which they are situated, and the Market-Days. Crofts Roads in Scotland. The General Roads of the Judges Circuits. A concise Accout of the Noblemens and Gentlemens Seats upon each Road. An authentic Account of the Second Edition, corrected and greatly improved. Printed for W. Owen, in Fleet-Street, London and sold by J. Due wry, Bookseller, in Derby and all other Booklellers in Town and Country Of whom may be had, A new Edition of OWEN's Compleat BOOK of all the FAIRS in England and Wales, in three distinct Lifts, with an Abstract of all the Acts of Parliament relating to Fairs.This is the only authentic Account of the Fairs extant. These two Books, in one Volume, will be a most useful Companion to Gentlemen and Dealers, in their Journey to any Part of England or Wales and may be had, bound together, in a neat Pocket Volume, price 2s.
you may just google Owens complete Book of Fairs and or Roads to find the books on the internet, its there for any to read, I was amazed at the amount of Fairs, Market days, all sorts of days that were there for people of some hawking profession, these things were on the go for hundreds of years, I think the original Gipsys just joined in and along with the British hawkers, the Local people were all selling horses and doing all the jobs that people say the Gipsys did, I would say there was far much more mixing than others have made out, between the Gipsys, Hawkers, Farmers, Landlords of property and land, everyone really, i wonder have people played up to much on the notion of the isolated stick to your own real Gipsy, the real Gipsy down in the woods, we can only make our own judgements as things come along, so the story as started, this is not Gospel, its just my words
I'll just put one later record on I found, don't you just love that name Emmanuel, now that's two Emmanuel's, one Woodward, one Smith, and I never even heard of one until the other day
Derbyshire 1913
Before the Magistrates
At the Chesterfield Borough Police Court Thursday, Emmanuel Smith. Rodney Yard. Brampton, was fined Is. and costs for being the owner of a horse found straying in Ashgate Road on Saturday, Constable Kee stating the facts.
-
Rise of the Contentious Spirit: Adversary Procedure in Eighteenth Century England
Stephan Landsman
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj89tipkvjLAhUFXD4KHYSiAgsQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fscholarship.law.cornell.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D3451%26context%3Dclr&usg=AFQjCNFPZQG9ubw346LtaRnUZcb08wwbyw
INTRODUCTION
Criminal trials in Tudor and Stuart England were, according to J.S. Cockburn, "nasty, brutish, and essentially short." 2 Counsel seldom participated, 3 few, if any, rules of evidence constrained enquiry,4 judges routinely examined witnesses and defendants in the most vigorous, and at times ruthless, manner
This is just one small extract above from the above article by Stephen Landsman in 1990, try and read it, we must all try and see the bigger picture, we have to try to learn things, how else will we understand things that come our way if we have no knowledge of what we find
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj67bnohfjLAhXD4SYKHSQ6CMAQFggoMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.daviddfriedman.com%2FAcademic%2FEngland_18thc.%2FEngland_18thc.html&usg=AFQjCNH3WL5pu5qfoR9Qxh0za8lXu8AWvw
just two extract's from the above article, try and read the article it is only a small article, you see if we are to write and talk of the times of our relatives or People we have an interest in, we all must try and understand the times within those times,
Making Sense of English Law Enforcement in the 18th Century
David Friedman
The conjecture I have offered is relevant not only to an explanation of why crimes were prosecuted, but also to another issue raised in modern discussions of 18th century English law: its relation to the system of class and authority. Some authors view the law as a class neutral instrument, employed by rich and poor alike to protect themselves against the small criminal minority.[36] Others argue that it was primarily a device by which the rich protected themselves from the poor, or by which the ruling class established and maintained its legitimacy
The solution was to create or join an association for the prosecution of felons. Most such associations consisted of between twenty and a hundred members, all living in the same general area.[24] Each member, on joining, contributed a fixed payment to a common pool. The money was available to pay the cost of prosecuting a crime committed against any member. The list of members was published in the local newspaper.
Brampton Association For The Prosecutions Of Felons
Wher'eas at a meeting held at the house of Mr Mason Brampton asforesaid, on the 9th day of March 1792 the understated persons did then and there form themselves into a society for mutual protection, and defence of each others property, and to apprehend and bring to justice all such persons as should then afterwards be found committing any burglary, felony, larceny, orother misdemeanours herein afore mentioned, against the persons of property of such persons as did then or should afterwards, become members of said association
the article then goes on to give a full list of the subscribers names and rewards of monies given by the treasurer of the association to informers who help to discover or apprehend any offender or offenders to that he or they may be convicted of any offence hereunder mentioned,
it then goes on to list such offences and rewards given, these below are a few examples
Highway Robbery ........... Three Pounds Three Shillings
Stealing an Horse ............ Two Pounds Two Shillings
stealing Hedges ............... One Pound One Shilling
Robbing Orchards .............. Ten Shilling Six Penny's
Stealing Poultry .................Ten Shilling Six Penny's
Any kind of petty Larceny .....Ten Shilling Six Penny's
It then goes on to say any persons having occasion to attend the assizes or sessions to give evidence will receive Eight Shillings per day for their trouble
Robert Turner the Treasurer
Brampton
20th November 1792
I write like this in the hope that although it is different to what some people may perceive as genealogy, as in its not just a name and date on a blank piece of paper, I write this way for its just the way I talk, I want to learn things to, I put lots of names and dates of People plus locations and trades, I think People who research will find this information of great help, I to am hoping to learn such things, if any one wishes to join in I would welcome you all, I will also ask some questions soon, then People if they wish may help me, if you follow the story of the times round Brampton that I am telling it will all form a bigger picture soon
-
I found this article linking Brampton, Selston, and the Great Man himself, Dan, the article is very long, so I will put the other half on next, part or all of the inscription that Thomas Smith and the writer talk about, is again slightly different, even from an early time, and also is readable in the year 1912, so maybe these are the true words as in word for word, but as always, you never know
the article below that goes into two pages is from an article I found, intern the writer was summarising from a larger article he found, then I found the larger one also, if anyone wants to see the bigger original plus larger interview with Osery Boswell that contains more information I will write it up, I know people have looked and wrote of Gipsys, I just write for maybe something may have been left out or wrote wrongly, like I say if any of the Boswells who haven't yet seen the original interview and wish to read it, just say and I will write the full account up if you wish, but for now this is just the smaller article taken by a writer from the original interview
Derbyshire 1912
TOWN AND COUNTY GOSSIP.
Quite recently the Rev. Charles Harrison, vicar of selston, expressed a desire to bring about a gathering of the Boswell clan of gipsies at that old rendezvous of their race. fancy if all the Boswells were to turn up in his parish the worthy vicar would very considerably be astonished, for the tribe of Boswell could probably claim to be numbered in the ten thousand. There are Boswells here, there, and everywhere, and I understand some members of the clan are somewhat inclined to look a little askance at a few of their fellows—Boswells though all claim to be. This was certainly the case with certain of the Boswells that used to reside in Derby. and whose affection for each other was by no means that which David bore towards Jonathan. Still they have always been a remarkable family, and there was a time, scarcely a generation back, when rumour had it that an old lady of the tribe from her dingy little house in Brook-street told the fortunes of half the well-to-do young ladies of Derby. Possibly they might not care to acknowledge the fact after all these years. but that was what Rumour said a quarter of a century ago. Perchance the jade lied. There is a gentleman residing at Tibshelf— a Mr. Thomas Smith —who has some interesting recollections of the gipsies at Selston, and of the circumstances under which they were evicted. Mr. Smith recently stated in the columns of the Derbyshire Times that "Dan Boswell", whose tombstone the vicar of Selston desires to see re-erected, was a noted man amongst his class. died on Selston Common at the age of 73 years, not far from Pye Hill, and he lies buried in the Selston Parish Churchyard. his tombstone was erected to his memory but it is said that an infuriated bull knocked it down and broke it. The inscription upon the tombstone, which now lies on the ground, reads as under
"I have lodged, 'tis true, in many a town,
I have travelled many a year,
but death at length has brought me down
To my last lodging here."
Brampton boasts a clan who are known as the "Boswell gang." who have attained an unenviable reputation locally. Whether the founder of this clan is an offshoot from the original Boswell family alluded to above the "Derbyshire Times" does not know, and probably the remaining members of the family are not anxiously to claim kinship.
It is quite possible that the most remarkable surviving member of the Boswell family still resides in Derbyshire. This venerable old man, who 99 last fifth November is a true type of the old gipsy- He has been a wanderer all his life, but has apparently made up his mind to end his days in Derbyshire, for whose hills and dales has always had profound affection, though, as a matter of fact is a native of Scarborough. and his wife—aged 75—dwell in a barn on some land belonging to a Mr. A. J. Critchlow in Crow hill lane Bakewell. Here they have been "housed" since November last, through the kindness of Mr. Critchlow. Prior to that they were "roughing" in a quarry at Stanton-in-Peak
-
A request from Mrs. Boswell for the use of the building was readily granted. This was by no means their first acquaintance with the barn, the pair having made it their headquarters for years past, but this time they have stopped longer than usual, and seen to it to be ' fixed up ' for some time to come. The veteran is gradually becoming more and more infirm, and can only with difficulty get about. When a " Derbyshire Times" representative called the old man was confined to his bed, which is a rude affair, its foundation being a quantity of hay and the covering, clothing of various descriptions. The "house" is father a draughty place, but the old fellow is quite contented. he would far rather be in such a home than in a cottage or in the workhouse infirmary. Confinement in either place would kill him straight away, he says. The floor is composed entirely of mother earth, which Mrs. Boswell regrets, as she would prefer to be able to tidy it up. Their fireplace is a bucket, plentifully studded with holes, which stands on bricks. The fuel consists chiefly of logs, wood provided by a local gentleman, well-known for his generosity. As there is no chimney the smoke has to find its own way out as best it can. The building was full of smoke when we called, and although it was rather discomforting to us it did not seem to trouble Mr.and Mrs. Boswell, who were not at all particular. It seemed to make the old man's cough worse, but that was all. the old man claims that the Boswell family is something like 500 years old, and hails from Lincolnshire. the name Boswell. Amongst his brothers were Uriah, Phoenix, and Edward all well known to the clan, from which "Razzer" as he is more familiarly known, has been separated for a lengthy period. When he came into Derbyshire he was comparatively well off, being possessed of a horse and a caravan. Until about twenty years ago Mr. and Mrs. Boswell and family travelled all over this part of the country, from New Mill's down to Ashbourne. he was an expert knife and scissors grinder, which trade he followed up to about two years ago. His wife for over sixty years has been a hawker. Between them they managed to make a good living, but things have gone from bad to worse, particularly since the old man has begun to fail. he as not had a caravan for the last twenty years, during which time they have tramped up and down the countryside, as often sleeping with the sky for a roof as under cover. Besides hawking and grinding the old pair have in their time done all sorts of work, including haymaking and harvesting. Mrs. Boswell states that she could use a sickle with anyone in her younger days. Now in their old age and infirmities they have had to fall back on the old-age pension.
Fancy a man born in the days of Castlereagh living to accept a pension from Mr. Lloyd George !
Derbyshire 1912
CENTENARIAN GIPSY'S DEATH AT BAKEWELL.
A Bakewell correspondent telegraphs, Osery Boswell, who was believed to be the oldest Gipsy in the world, died in the Workhouse Infirmary Bakewell yesterday, aged 100 He claimed to belong to one of the oldest clans of Gipsies which hailed hundreds of years ago from Lincolnshire. Gipsy Boswell and his wife Catherine came from beeley moore to cowhill lane near bakewell, he was taken ill and removed to the Workhouse, Catherine went to live with friends in matlock, Boswell and his wife, who was aged 88, had not had a caravan of their own for 20 years, but preferred to live anywhere and anyhow. Boswell spent most of his life in Lincoln and Nottingham,
Derbyshire 1915
A second gang at Brampton
Chesterfield told of Robberies. A remarkable disclosure of thefts by a number of Chesterfield lads who style themselves the Boswell gang the second, .who were following in the footsteps of the former notorious combination which terrorised Brampton
I have looked at many many records of these gangs, right through many years of the early 1900s I never as yet have come across one of them named Boswell, but someone could be related who knows, are they just local lads who styled themselves on an earlier notorious gang of Boswells, I don't know
the article below is discussing the many aged people in the history of Nottinghamshire, Sarah is Dan Boswells Wife and came in at number five,
1878
Nottinghamshire Centurions
Compiled Geo. Jno. Stevenson, M.A.
Written expressly for the "Derbyshire Courier.
Sarah Boswell was the wife of Dan Boswell, the king of the Gipsies, to whom she bad been married 72 years at the time of her death, as was proved by her marriage certificate, which she very carefully preserved to the end her life. She was recognised as the queen the Gipsies, and died at length in the Union Hospital, at Nottingham. Most of her life was spent in the open air.
-
would any one be able to say if they can find census records of these knights, Grahams, around Derbyshire and Yorkshire who are connected to the Wiltshire's, on the record of 1866 it states some of them could of come from the south, so I was just looking at a few records, and it does show that people from Yorkshire were going down to the south of England, i don't know who is who, but Knight was a name known through old oral tradition
Hampshire census 1881
John Knight .Bc 1812 Andover, Hampshire, England Head Andover, Hampshire
Emma Knight .Bc 1824 Portsmouth Mother Brightside Bierlow, Yorkshire
Mary Knight .Bc 1824 Portsea, Hampshire, England Head Portsea, Hampshire
Julia Knight .Bc 1834 Upton, Hampshire, England Boarder Andover, Hampshire
Frederick Knight .Bc 1850 Andover, Hampshire, England Boarder Andover, Hampshire
census 1881 Yorkshire
Joseph Willshaw Maria, Bc 1844 Bradford, Yorkshire, England, Brightside Bierlow, Yorkshire
Maria Willshaw Joseph, Bc 1849 Sheffield, Yorkshire, England, Brightside Bierlow, Yorkshire
Joseph Willshaw Joseph, Maria, Bc 1866 Sheffield, Yorkshire, England, Brightside Bierlow, Yorkshire
Tom Willshaw Joseph, Maria, Bc 1867 Sheffield, Yorkshire, England, Brightside Bierlow, Yorkshire
Clara Knight, Bc 1851 Leeds, Yorkshire, England, Great Grimsby, Lincolnshire
Tom Knight Emma, Bc 1853 Wath, Yorkshire, England, Brightside Bierlow, Yorkshire
Bill Knight Emma, Jane, Bc 1857 Wath, Yorkshire, England, Brightside Bierlow, Yorkshire
James Knight, Bc 1862 Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Devon census 1881
Theriza Knight.Bc 1849 Exeter, Devon, England Head Exeter St Mary Major, Devon
Sarah Knight .Bc 1850 Bradford Lodger Sheffield, Yorkshire
Derbyshire 1888
Horse Stealing at Wirksworth
Thomas Knight 33 alias Graham Tin Man was charged with stealing an horse the property of Sarah Wilshaw a widow, the prisoners sister is the proprietress of a traveling caravan stationed in a field, she employed him to look after the horse the horse was sold at Wirksworth market place to john Spencer, Knight was apprehended in Sheffield, the Jury found him guilty and he was sentenced to six months with hard labour, there was a large number of previous convictions, it was stated that they were not living together as Man and Wife
CAPTURE OF SUPPOSED HORSE STEALER. THIS DAY.
The borough forces, and Police-constable Wheatley, of the Derbyshire Constabulary, succeeded in arresting in Spring street a hawker named Thomas Knight on a charge of stealing a horse from Wirksworth . The horse has been recovered in Worksop. The accused is well known character.
Brampton Chesterfield Derbyshire 1866
Shocking Depravity
At the County Magistrates at Chesterfield Tuesday last.
Joseph Wiltshire 22 of Nottingham itinerant Gipsy besom maker and Emma Graham 34 alias knight pot hawker of south sea Hants the latter charged with having stolen five pounds three shillings the property of David Allen pot hawker of Boroughbridge Staffordshire in the Griffin inn Brampton and the former with having feloniously received the same, but the prosecutor on not appearing they were both discharged, it was stated that the male prisoner knocked him down and when on the floor the woman cut out his pockets, They were then charged by Maria Knight (wife of the male, and daughter of the female prisoner) with assaulting her Saturday night, it was stated that Wiltshire was living with his own Mother in law as Man and Wife, the case was dismissed as the parties did not appear.
1874 Brampton
Charge of Stealing a Donkey.
Thomas Graham and James Knight, two Gipsies, were brought up in custody on remand with stealing an ass belonging to George Thompson, Brampton, The defence was that the prosecutor, who had been drinking with the prisoners, had given them permission to sell the animal while he was intoxicated.—The Bench considering the evidence was not sufficiently conclusive, dismissed the case.
1874 Derbyshire
Who Stole the Donkey
At the Magistrates' Clerk's Office, Chesterfield, two men named respectively James Knight and Thomas Graham, were each brought up charged with stealing a donkey, the property of a travelling hawker named James Wright.—The evidence went to show that on Monday night the prosecutor bought an ass for 6s. which he saw in a field at Walton, and on the following morning he went for it, and it was nowhere to be found. On the previous evening he was in company with the prisoners, and he suspected them of taking 14s. and some coppers out of his pocket. —George Beeley spoke to buying the ass from the two prisoners for 6d., on the previous morning, and he put it into the Royal Oak stable. —Remanded till Saturday
-
would any one be able to tell me any reason why this Joseph Wiltshire was down Gloucestershire,
I think Mary Ann Woodward was more than likely his Wife, the Woodwards I would say are related to the Wiltshires, I think Gasby should be spelt Gadsby as I found some information about William, I was looking into the name Jemima and found Gipsys like Jemima James and Jemima Elliott, then I found the story at the bottom of the page about the two top Men, Willsher and Elliott
Gloucestershire 1891
Petty Sessions, Berkley, Thursday.Joseph Wiltshire, Mary Ann Woodward, and Jemima Gasby,
Gipsies travelling with vans, were arrested and brought up under a warrant charging them with assaulting and beating William Coles Harding, farmer and dealer, of Sanigar. It appeared from the evidence that the prisoners visited the Bell Inn at Berkeley Heath, and there being some dispute as to a broken cup,Complainant deposed that he was sitting outside the Bell talking to three or four other farmers and dealers, and heard the Landlord, Mr Hooper, ask defendants to pay for a cup they had broken. Wiltshire was very abusive, and complainant told him he had belter pay and get off Wiltshire took off his coat, and thereupon caught complainant by the hands and butted his head into his face several times, causing severe bruises. Harding then defended himself, He put prisoner on his back on the ground, and then the two females "pitched into" witness. Woodward struck him with her fists, and knew how to use them. As there was a further charge against the prisoners, sentence was deferred. They were then charged, together with William Gasby, with assaulting and beating John Charles Hooper, landlord of the Bell inn, who said, when the fracas with Mr. Harding was finished, Wiltshire came and knocked him down unawares. As soon as he was down the four prisoners pitched into him and dragged him about. Gasby tripped him several times when he went to help Mr. Harding.
They hammered him about for five minutes. The four prisoners pleaded for leniency. The bench considered Wiltshire the worst to blame, and he was sentenced to 14 days' imprisonment with hard labour for the assault on Harding, and 14 days' further hard labour for the assault on Hooper. Woodward and Jemima Gasby were each fined and William Gasby was fined
Extract from
Charles Dickens and his friends
by W.T Teignmouth Shore
published by Cassell and company limited 1909
In a animated journey from Bristol to Birmingham the travellers stopped at various posting houses, where the mercurial Sawer would insist on getting down to lunch dine or otherwise refresh
his friends being always ready to comply after a little decent hesitation, thus they drew up at the Bell at Berkeley Heath
Charles Dickens was born on 7th February 1812 in Portsmouth.
in 1836, a story by Dickens, The Pickwick Papers was published as a serial. This proved to be very popular and Dickens started to become famous.
Charles Dickens died on 9th June 1870. He suffered a stroke after completing a full day’s work on his novel in progress, Edwin Drood. He was buried in Poet’s Corner of Westminster Abbey.
Pickwick Farm 2016
Bed and Breakfast accommodation in Berkeley Gloucestershire England
Now a working dairy Farm the house was once a coaching inn called The Bell Inn and was visited by Charles Dickens when he wrote Pickwick Papers. Situated in vale of Berkeley, halfway between Bristol & Gloucester.
Crewkerne 1885
Jemima James, travelling hawker, was charged with being drunk in the Chard Road on Saturday evening. lt appears that she made very free use of her fists and knocked over several women and a man. She was fined 10s, including costs.
Lincolnshire 1876
Jemima Elliott, Gipsy, for using van without her name being painted thereon, at Kirmington, on the 19th was fined 5s. and costs 6s. 6d. The same defendant, with Mary Ann Winter and Elizabeth Peace, Gipsies, were charged with obstructing the highway, Kirmington, at the same time with horses and vans, and each was fined 1s. and costs 6s. 6d.
Nottinghamshire 1860
District News. On Sunday last, information was given to Inspector Home, of Southwell, and P. c. Howett, of Farnsfield, that about 30 Gipsies had encamped at the Four Lanes End, near Farnsfield. The above officere apprehended two of the Principal Gipsies, and on Monday last they were taken before the Rev. J. D. Becher and Pelham Clay, Esck, at Southwell, when they gave their names as Thomas Willsher and Wm. Elliott they had 10s each to pay, including costs.
-
my Mother would often tell me of certain things, just in a normal way of talking, my life to me was normal, the things She would say, became to be normal, this is how you become you, so when you write it is you, who are writing, why people write about Gipsys and think in their words, is for them to realise they write about themselves and their own teachings of normality, who would deny me my teachings, my Mother would say that through the teachings and knowledge She new, well She said it was only the Gipsy Women who new the truth, they new who was who, a man She said never rarely knows, people in these times now are mostly the children of people born after the great wars, I always was puzzled by what and how people talk about when they talk of what they claim is true, then I realised that I have had no input from people born after the wars, everything that I know thoe limited is from the teaching of long gone People, I was just looking at this article below and was thinking that was just what my Mother was talking about, and do you see how the Gipsy Man named Wisdom Smith when it came to the crunch was not in no way interested or ill at ease with the proceedings, and the great Gipsy Women to new who they were, i think it is people born in this time who are concerned and worried, worried about how they will look, how can anyone ever think they can write of Gipsys if they don't evan have a clue of a state of mind, writers of the past in my mind wrote shamefully, writers in the present transcribe and are guided by such people, I don't know how it feels to be seduced, i suppose there is much knowledge wrote that is good to and informative, i am trying to learn things to, when you as you try to help me it may be in many,s the years to come, i might not be around, but i know you will find my words and answer me, through me you will find the ones i talk about, they are Great People, you wont wake them they will find you, there is no such thing as history, you can only be who you are in your own lifetime, the Gipsys are the only People who never wrote of their triumphs, they say the victorious are the ones to write the history's of the world, well the Great Gipsy People who lived as Gipsys in their own lifetime new in their own hearts, who they were, now isn't that a triumph in itself, people in this time who seek crowns are welcome to be themselves, i will keep asking questions for the answers i look for, everyone is welcome to reply to me, i know i will slip up on the way and get things wrong, no harm ment to no one, i,m not thinking of myself, i,m not worried of nothing, I want to help the People, who like me, are searching, goodluck
Derbyshire 1863
Gipsy Life. Shocking Depravity.
The annals of the police-court have just revealed a shocking case of depravity in connection with gipsy life. A young girl, named Sarah Smith, the offspring of a gypsy tribe who encamp within a short distance of Chesterfield, has been in custody on a charge of a felony for about a week awaiting the hearing of the case, which took place last Saturday. Whilst in the lock-up she was visited by two gypsy women, and the remarks which passed excited the curiosity of Superintendent Hunter, who questioned the girl as to her parentage, when she admitted that the man who was prosecuting her was living with her mother and her mother's sister in a state of adultery, and further that he had been doing so for many years and that each woman had had six children by the man, whose name was "Wisdom Smith". There is reason to believe that this man is the father to the girl charged with the felony, but when accused of the paternity he stoutly denied it. It would appear that the two women live with Smith on the most amicable terms. The man admitted the depraved mode of life he was leading with the women before the magistrates without the slightest concern. The girl was sentenced to seven days' imprisonment. And the magistrates said they should have given her more but for the bad example which had been set her. They refused to allow Smith any expenses.
-
I wonder if any one can help, I have been researching articles around Yorkshire in a place named Attercliffe Common, its in Sheffield, then i came across this interesting book, I,v just wrote a small extract, I am just trying to find out how much you can believe, if it is true what is wrote below why do I find other information that seems to contradict this story of James Bosvile, I wonder was he born a Gipsy or did he join with them, it is of no matter, he sounds alright to me, I,m a bit of alsorts myself
"OLD YORKSHIRE"
Morley, April 2nd, 1881.
WILLIAM SMITH, F.S.A.S
" All these things here collected are not mine,
But divers grapes make but one kind of wine,
So I from many learned authors took
The various matters written in this book.
Some things are very good, pick out the best,
Good wits compiled them, and I wrote the rest,
If thou dost buy it, it will quit the cost,
Read it, and all thy labour is not lost."
TAYLOR (.The Water Poet).
The present volume consists principally of articles selected from
the " Local Quotes and Queries" columns of the Leeds Mercury Weekly
Supplement. These contributions have been appearing during the past
two years, and have added much valuable information to our previous
acquaintance with the habits, customs, pursuits, sentiments, and
surroundings of our forefathers.
Having been favoured with several most interesting original
contributions, I have as yet used but a small proportion of the articles in
" Local Notes and Queries," and it is my intention, should the present
venture meet with the approval of my subscribers and the public, to
issue another volume of " Old Yorkshire" in the autumn of the present
year, and subsequently, a volume on the first day of March in each
year. Each of these issues will contain choice selections from the
Mercury Supplement, together with original contributions; and the
series, will it is hoped, be a worthy addition to the history of our
ancient county, and tend to save from perishing much that is eurious,
valuable, and interesting.
I am wishful to make the work a depository for matters of interest
relating to the County, and now that a taste for Archaeology is becoming
more general, I trust the successive volumes of " Old Yorkshire " may
be taken advantage of by antiquaries and others, to place on record any
remains of antiquity existing in their own immediate localities, or some
of those numerous discoveries in Topographical and Archaeological
subjects which are made from year to year, and from want of being
published are lost to the world for ever.
THE KING OF THE GIPSIES.
JAMES BOSVILE was a member of the Bosvile family, of Ravenfield
Hall, near Rotherham, and possessed an estate of the value of 200
per annum, at Rossinglon, near Doncaster, where he was born about
the middle of the 17th century, and was described by De la Pryme as
" a mad spark, mighty fine and brisk, and keeping company with a
great many gentlemen, knights, and esquires." At that time a great
number of gipsy families lived at the adjacent moors, in tents and
waggons, in whom he took great interest, studying their ways, customs,
language, and legends, and frequently travelling and camping with
them. In process of time, he came to be recognised by the wandering
tribes as a sort of Sovereign, whom they implicitly obeyed and looked
up to with reverence and love. Being a man of great integrity of
principle, and anxious to promote the welfare of all by whom he was
surrounded, he laboured assiduously in the endeavour to restrain their
propensity for pilfering, and to advance them in the scale of civilisation
generally, and to a certain extent he was successful, for which he
earned the grateful thanks of the farmers. He was also much beloved
by the villagers of Rossington, to whom, as well as to the gipsies, he
administered gratuitous medical advice and physic, and afforded them
pecuniary relief as far as his means extended. He was buried in
Rossington churchyard in the year 1708-9, and for a long period
afterwards it was the custom of the gipsies to pay an annual visit to
his grave and perform there certain ceremonies, one of which was the
pouring, as a libation, a flagon of hot ale on the turf which covered his
remains.
Extract from the "Dony" Online Magazine Doncaster
James Boswell (or Bosvill) was King of the Gypsies, he is buried in Rossington.
Millers Langdale's Topographical Dictionary of Yorkshire (1822), says: In the church yard, was a stone, the two ends of which are now remaining, where was interred the body of James Bosvill the King of the Gypsies, who died January 30, 1708. For a number of years, it was a custom of Gypsies from the south, to visit his tomb and there to pour a flagon of ale upon the grave.
St. Michael's Church in Rossington is the burial place of James Boswell, who like Robin Hood, living in Sherwood Forest, helped travellers and gypsies. it is said his grave was opened up so that his black cat could be buried with him.
-
Very Interesting all the articles enjoyed reading them .
-
hello everyone and i hope all's good,
sure I know now I,v been away, well we all know that , but not a worry now I,m back,
I know my posts got disjointed about Brampton if you was following right,
I know I have talked about Brampton in the after talk, but my hand was pushed into such things by the forgiven, but I'm not going back to Brampton yet in the original talk flow, I will and great talk for Gipsys that will be , just be patient,
now I will talk of the Gipsys of my Mothers and your Mothers or Mothers Mothers People of the Great War, wow just get ready , do you know the more you learn and find things of life, you realise the so called elite intellectuals are the stupid ones, I was going to put on questions and information about the Great War and an in-depth history gained from I would say thousands of hours of research in books and on line, but you know I have Great respect for everyone of those times, everyone, I just can not write what I have found , I will summarise my talk around what I think is Gipsy People and forgive me for not telling of the Great Dead and the times within those times, I will stay with my Mothers Relatives and near as I can to Gipsy People , please say if any thing I write is not as you think and I will listen , I have got to delete hundreds of thousands of words from research, I will show you the truth , I will ask some questions of roots history , I do hope some one will answer me this time, I will ask questions of my Mothers Relatives , and I will ask questions for the Relatives of Gipsys who I write about, wait till you hear what they tell me, now you know now we all Love and Respect the Gipsys of long times R.I.P
are you ready Gipsy People ,and all who have an interest, they want to tell you, they want you to know, they are not forgotten, and the truth is coming, they will rest..
michael
-
never ever forget, people in my mind and through time from what I have learned have always spoke bad and not truly understood what is known as the Gipsys, the truth is the Gipsys have always been on the run, from the dawn of the first flight, right up to the dark dark days of the early 1900s, a time in my mind that was the beginning not of the end but a new beginning, in my mind so much changed after the Great War, maybe I will dwell on that another time, below is just a little thing now for you to dwell on yourself before I start into the story, and remember I was going to write about the War, but no, there is so much sorrow and screams I feel it is for others to tell which of course they have and a sorrowful tale is told,
Dundee evening telegraph Thursday 19 august 1920
GIPSIES CHANGED BY THE WAR.
Now Attend Places of Worship.
The travels of the gipsies from the Bohemian Estate, Southend, to the harvest fields in the midlands and West is now taking place. Until lately there have been as many as 250 caravans on the estate, which is the gipsies' freehold, and the migrants will return at the beginning of winter. The war has brought about a deemed change in the habits of these people, writes the Southend correspondent. Quite a number of them now attend places of worship in the vicinity of the encampment, a thing quite unknown before. Numbers of them lost relatives who served with the Forces, a fact which has brought them in to a closer touch with the villagers. Some of the caravans, too, are pictures- of neatness. Children in a good many hammocks slung beneath the wheel their parents occupying the bunks inside. The gipsies arrived in the neighborhood about sixteen years ago, their travels are gradually diminishing. Some go away on the summer exodus and fail to return; others become prosperous and take houses.
IV. AFFAIRS OF EGYPT, 1909
By Thomas William Thompson
All that is given below is a short precis, alas! Frequently couched
In uncouth 'journalese,'
The year 1909 was ushered in by the sequel to the Boxing Day
Quarrels of the Gypsies encamped on the Bohemian Estate, Eastwood, Southend.
This estate is partly owned and partly rented by about twenty-five or thirty
Families of Gypsies, who make it their permanent home. They are divided into
Two distinct camps the converted Gypsies, the Buckley’s and Smiths and their
Connections; and a varied mob of unregenerate pos-rats and ' mumpers ' belonging
to the families Smith, Stone, Bibby, Draper, Scarett, Webb, Livermore, Harris,
Laws, etc. Skirmishes naturally take place between the rival factions, whilst
Internal disturbances are almost as rife
when I have finished writing I will ask Questions, and I do hope someone will find the time to help, the writing will take several days or weeks, I have bits of paper all over the place, then when I read some of them ,I,v no clue what they mean, just a date on them and say some words like Henry Wiltshire was poaching, when and where he was poaching I don't even know, so I have been updating my research techniques and trying to order things, but still I will just write in a fashion of my own talk, I would be very grateful if any of you Roots Chatters will help in my research about the Gipsys I will soon write about,
-
so I will start, start with a steady hand to, start with conviction, start with Pride, Pride and Respect, Respect for all the long Dead, and if you could but wait now till the end of the story, to think deep yourself on what I am about to write I would be obliged and thankful for your kind patience, this is a sad story, but still one that should be told and expanded on,
Newcastle journal Monday 29 June 1914
LONDON LETTER.
THE ASSASSINATION OF THE ARCHDUKE FERDINAND.
(BY PRIVATE WIRE.)
(From Our Own Correspondent.)
London.
Sunday Evening. London has been thrilled to-night by the tidings of the assassination of the Archduke Francis Ferdinand of Austria and his wife, which became generally known in the course of the evening through the publication of special editions of some of the Sunday newspapers and the posting of the news on the windows of Fleet Street offices. The first feeling which everywhere found expression was one of sympathy with the aged Emperor Francis Joseph, who, after a life of storm and sorrow, has been thus suddenly bereft in tragic circumstances the heir to the dual monarchy. It is only some seven months or so since the Archduke and his Consort visited England as the guests of the King and Queen at Windsor, prior to which they spent a few days privately in London, where they went about a good deal, and were enthusiastically greeted whenever they drove through the streets. The Archduke was a man of fine physique, and his handsome, vigorous personality impressed all who saw him. There is no doubt also that the cordiality of his reception at the hands of the public made a strong impression on the mind of the distinguished visitor. It may remembered that, after taking leave of their Royal hosts at Windsor on November 22, the Archduke and his Consort travelled to Welbeck, and were the guests of the Duke and Duchess of Portland until the end of the following week. Although the visit to England was not concerned with any business diplomacy, was believed at the time that it was bound to have a satisfactory influence on the relations between this country and Austria- Hungary.
-
Leamington spar courier Friday 4 September 1914
A LOCAL LADY'S EXPERIENCES. AMID AUSTRIAN WAR PREPARATIONS.
A leamington lady living in the Avenue Road, who left her home in June for three mouths’ tour on the (Continent, to be spent chiefly in Austria, has had an experience which may well be described interesting though not devoid of anxiety and apprehension, being it was right in the centre, geographically, of the beginning of things which are having such terrific issues. The first part of the tour was spent at Munich, Manx, and Salzburg. From Salzburg Miss X went to Gratz. Two days after her arrival occurred the assassination of the Arch-duke Ferdinand, an event which started state of unrest throughout Austria as, continuing her travels. Miss X soon discovered. But everywhere she went the hotels were full visitors, especially at Bad Gastrin. Where large number English people had gone for the cure. From Gratz* Miss X journeyed Innsbruck, which she reached at the end of the week in July. Here she had rooms at the Hotel I ‘Europe. Where she found great number of Austrian officers were staying, and whither also came four Arch-dukes with whose dress, appearance, and bearing she was much impressed. They were magnificent men—tall, big, handsome—brave looking in their uniforms. And with many medals decorating their breasts. Indeed, the military rig-out ought to have been worth looking at considering it took four men to dress an officer, performance which could be witnessed by anyway passing down the corridor, the door of the room of the officer in question being wide open. The most magnificent military personage of all. said Miss X to Courier representative, was the Archduke who is now (commander-in-Chief of the Austrian Army. But it was at Trafoi that things had a more serious aspect. The town was full of officers and soldiers. They covered valley, hill, and mountain height. It was evident that mobilisation was going on. Although visitors were told that only an inspection was taking place. Asking if preparations were being made for war. “War! No," replied the Hotel Manager; "it is only paper war. Don’t fight with weapons nowadays." "Well." answered Miss X “all i can say is that it looks uncommonly like it." Crossing by the Stelvio pass by diligence into Italy she arrived at From this place she travelled to Florence, and ten days after her arrival came the declaration of war. The first intimation the English had of this tragic proclamation was on Sunday morning when, arriving at the church attached to the British Embassy for the o’clock service the people were met by the verger who told them there would service, the chaplain (a locum the regular minister being in England on his holiday) having been suddenly ordered to proceed to Malta the next day to join his regiment. " Guerra , Guerra” ("War, War”) was the explanation. War it truly was. And one in which England had been forced to take part. Week later visitors were not to envied. letters came through, banks closed down, and it was impossible to get any money. Their days were spent at Cooks, who advised everybody to remain where they were. One morning they were told it was not thought possible that any English people would be able leave Florence before Christmas. But at last news arrived that Cooks had succeeded in securing from the Government steamer the Critic leaving Genoa. It was expressly for the accommodation of British subjects first and then for Americans if there was any room left. In a very short time —barely an hour—Miss X packed and with difficulty procured a passport. The kindness of the Italians was beyond everything. She had but little money and her landlady would take payment. "do you think i could take your money? ho, Signora, not for one minute; i would rather lend you some till you get to England." This was typical of treatment received generally. All were thankful to reach Genoa, and after two days there to board the friendly Critic, for friendly it was truly found to be. Captain, officers, doctor and stewards worked hard. And so did the lady passengers, who, after every meal, helped the stewards in the pantry " wash up”. The voyage was without any undue scares. Italy said Miss X, is now quite for war. At Florence entraining was splendidly carried out. There was no excitement, but everything has been done thoroughly and quietly, no one imagined that there were barracks near, so quiet was the town at night. All over Italy the people are prepared to guard their towns, every citizen over 50 being told off for this specific duty. The Italians love the English, and ready to stand by us, said Miss X.
-
like I have stated I will not write the many thousands of words that I had ready, be it that some were in my head some on scraps of paper and much in order but I would have got there, but no, people must if they wish use the few words I transcribe as a guide for their own research on the past events, I will talk much soon of the Gipsys , it is just a basic outline I am giving, you would be well to forget all the talk about Germans, Germans this Germans that, that's all I ever new when I was young, far more went on and had a terrible impact on the Gipys of Britain , a savage story I will soon tell of the cruel plight of the Gipsys of these lands, all will become clear, Liston to the points I make, then do your own research, I think the Great War myself could of and should of been avoided, intern the Second World War descended on this nation, through the birth of the first, I will only tell of the beginning of the 1900s, like I have stated forget about Germans as in it was just us and them,
what I have found is they say Death is a certainty, well, I know it dosent sound good but War War War , is all I have found over and before the early 1900s, you have the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire, the Austrian Hungarian empire, the Pan Slavic Nations lead by the Mighty Russians, much went on, Nationalism, Imperialism, Empires, to be won and lost, and you tell me through all my research Gipsys living in an old wagon ,in a field or on some abandoned dirt road new of any of these things, there was no televisions or radios that they would tuned into, and what of the Back Hand, what of the East India Company, what of General Gordan and the Sudan, what of the plight of the Zulus, the Suez Canal, I read the Chief of Egypt offloaded is share to Queen Victoria for many millions in secret, there was the alliances here there and everywhere, War War War, Money Greed and Power, betrail deceit lies , even Lions lead by Donkeys, you must all research the Royal Familys of the Great War, did you know there mostley related, I will not go into the details of the many things I have found, but again why again did the Gipsys of Britain suffer,
On 31 July 1914, Tsar Nicholas II ordered the full mobilisation of the Russian Army in response to Germany’s obvious preparations for war in the east. Enver Pasha, the Ottoman Minister for War, reacted by ordering the full mobilisation of the Ottoman Army. On 2 August he signed a secret treaty with the German Ambassador. Although this was essentially a defensive military alliance, calling on each party to come to the other’s aid against an attack by Russia, it revealed Enver Pasha’s view as to who was the Ottoman Empire’s most important friend – and who was its most bitter enemy
Slavs
extract from pan Slavism
many Pan-Slavs looked for leadership as well as for protection from Austro-Hungarian and Turkish rule. Russian Pan-Slavists, however, altered the theoretical bases of the movement. Adopting the Slavophile notion that western Europe was spiritually and culturally bankrupt and that it was Russia’s historic mission to rejuvenate Europe by gaining political dominance over it, the Pan-Slavists added the concept that Russia’s mission could not be fulfilled without the support of other Slav peoples, who must be liberated from their Austrian and Turkish masters and united into a Russian-dominated Slav confederation.
The black hand
extract from Spartacus educational
Black Hand
In May 1911, ten men in Serbia formed the Black Hand Secret Society. Early members included Colonel Dragutin Dimitrijevic, the chief of the Intelligence Department of the Serbian General Staff, Major Voja Tankosic and Milan Ciganovic.
The main objective of the Black Hand was the creation, by means of violence, of a Greater Serbia. Its stated aim was: "To realize the national ideal, the unification of all Serbs. This organisation prefers terrorist action to cultural activities; it will therefore remain secret."
Austo Hungarian empire
extract from Austrian Hungarian empire ww1 alfa history
Austria-Hungary before World War I was an empire, the largest political entity in mainland Europe. It spanned almost 700,000 square kilometers and occupied much of central Europe: from the mountainous Tyrol region north of Italy, to the fertile plains of the Ukraine, to the Transylvanian mountains of Eastern Europe. Eleven major ethno-language groups were scattered across the empire: Germans, Hungarians, Polish, Czech, Ukrainian, Slovak, Slovene, Croatians, Serbs, Italians and Romanians. Like Germany, the Austro-Hungarian Empire was a new state comprised old peoples and cultures; it was formed in 1867 by a compromise agreement between Vienna and Budapest.
-
extract from Authentic history
Imperialism
One of the main causes of the First World War was imperialism: an unequal relationship, often in the form of an empire, forced on other countries and peoples, resulting in domination and subordination of economics, culture, and territory. Historians disagree on whether the primary impetus for imperialism was cultural or economic, but whatever the reason, Europeans in the late 19th century increasingly chose to safeguard their access to markets, raw materials, and returns on their investments by seizing outright political and military control of the undeveloped world. Between the 1850s and 1911, all of Africa was colonized
except for Liberia and Ethiopia. The British, who had imposed direct rule on India in 1858, occupied Egypt in 1882, probably a strategic necessity to protect their Indian interests. The French, who had begun missionary work in Indochina in the 17th century, finished their conquests of the region in 1887, and in 1893 they added to it neighbouring Laos and a small sliver of China.
After 1897 Europeans began staking out “spheres of influence” in China, and the Dutch gradually expanded their old Company holdings to include all of modern day Indonesia. In 1911, Italy conquered Libya from the Ottoman Empire, providing glory and the opportunity to relieve the population pressures in the south. In the East, Russia completed the Trans-Siberian Railroad (1891-1903) and established itself as a major Pacific power. Only Japan managed to contain European aggression by adopting European industrial techniques, Germany, a late arrival at the imperialism game, achieved only a limited empire in East and southwest Africa, and on the coast of China. Although Germany successfully established colonies in the Pacific Southwest
By 1914 the net result of imperialism was a world in which the Western powers had established themselves competitively on every continent. Britain had an empire 140 times its own size; Belgium, an empire 80 times its size; Holland, 60 times; and France, 20 times.
The British Empire
extract from the British Empire ww1 then click on colonial troops
Race, empire and colonial troops When the great powers went to war in 1914, they didn’t start a European war, but a world war. At the start of World War One, the whole of Africa, except Ethiopia and Liberia, was under European rule, and Great Britain and France controlled the two largest colonial empires. They would draw on them extensively for both human and material sources. Even by conservative estimates, well over 4 million non-white men were mobilised into the European and American armies during the War, in both combat and non-combat roles. This section gives a small glimpse into their experiences.
extract from royal family's of ww1
The First World War saw millions of men separated from their families and sent to the front line but very few were pitted against their relations.
For the royals, however, World War I truly was a family affair.
A new documentary has revealed how the roots of the Great War lay partly in the tangled web of Royal family relationships - in particular that of the British-hating Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany and his cousins, George V of Britain and Tsar Nicholas of Russia.
for all the Royal Family search this web site I found it very interesting
European Monarchs at the Start of World War I
-
Northampton mercury 7 august 1914
DIARY OF THE WAR CRISIS.
CHRONOLOGICAL SUMMARY.
June 29—Assassination of the Archduice Franz Ferdinand (heir to the Austrian throne) and his wife by Pan-Servian conspirators.
July 2. —Austria presents ultimation to Servia, demanding, cessation of the greater-Servia agitation.
July 25.—Russia asks For extension for Servia. Austria refuses.
July 26.—Servia gives reply which Austria considers evasive, and the Ambassador leaves Belgrade. Servian mobilisation begins. Belgrade evacuated and seat of Government transferred to Nish.
July 27.—Sir E Grey proposes mediation France, Germany Italy and Great Britain to prevent a quarrel between Austria and Russia that would drag in all of Europe. First shots in the war fired Servian troops on the Danube.
July 28.—Austria declares war. Russia at once begins to mobilise her southern and south-western armies,
July 29.—Belgrade bombarded. Russia threatens full mobilisation, Kaiser holds all-night council with his Ministers and officers.
July 30.—Belgrade occupied by Austrian troops.
July 31.—Martial law proclaimed in Germany. Germany demands explanation of Russia’s military preparation.
Aug. 1. —Germany declares war on Russia. German troops invade Luxemburg. British Naval Reserves called out.
Aug. 2. —Sir E. Grey gives conditional assurances of British assistance to France. Naval battle in Baltic between Germans and Russians. Latter’s fleet driven back. Germans capture Aland Islands. German ultimatum presented to Belgium.
Aug. 4.—England presents untimatum to Germany regarding neutrality of Belgium and, later, declares war.
so I have been looking at many many books and references and before World War 1 started, there was a series of alliances between many European countries.
France, Britain and Ireland, and Russia formed an alliance known as the
"Triple Entente".
Germany was allied with Austria-Hungry. They were known as the
"Central Powers".
Archduke Franz Ferdinand, the heir to the throne of Austria-Hungary, was assassinated in Sarajevo on 28th June 1914, it resulted in World War 1.
Austria-Hungary, blamed Serbia for the death of the Archduke, they placed harsh demands on serbia. Germany sided with Austria-Hungary, Russia backed Serbia, Serbia looked to Russia as the leader of the Slavic Race, the Game was on.
the War began on July 28, 1914 and lasted until November 11, 1918.
The two main sides were
France, Great Britain and Russia
the foe was
Germany and Austria-Hungary
later a total of 30 countries would become involved. Italy, once part of the Triple Alliance with Germany and Austria-Hungary, they then changed to fight with the Allies.
I will not talk of the War, search yourself, a cruel time.
these are the facts that I have found in a small part,
now around this time of great agitation what of the Gipsys of Britain, let us see a few facts of the times before we move on
-
ANNUAL REPORT OF MEDICAL OFFICER
Middlesex chronicle Saturday 31 January 1914
The Gipsy Nuisance.
The Clerk read a letter from the Commissioner of Police, New Scotland Yard, with reference to the nuisance caused by a number of gipsies camping in August, etc., on each side the watersplash in the village of Cranford, and stating that attention would be paid to the matter the local police in order to prevent gipsies remaining at the spot in question, and adding that if any begging, by children, came under the notice of the police, the necessary action would be taken.—Mr, Whittington moved the following motion with reference to this matter: “That this Council respectfully wishes to pay the serious attention of His Majesty’s Secretary of State for the Home Department to the fact that under the present condition of the law there is no power to abate the rapidly increasing nuisance and annoyance caused to the residents and others by hordes of gipsies and other van dwellers camping and squatting upon the roadsides in their own and adjoining districts, and to urge that all necessary steps be taken to so amend or extend the law that the authorities in Middlesex and adjoining counties may quickly be invested with the necessary powers to prevent continuance such intolerable nuisance. That a copy of this resolution be sent to the whole the surrounding authorities, and to the County Councils of Middlesex, Surrey, Buckinghamshire and Hertfordshire, asking them to support the same by sending a similar resolution to the Home Secretary.—Mr. Lee seconded, and this was unanimously agreed to.
Buckingham advertiser and free press Saturday 11 April 1914
GIPSIES.
The Mayor
the adoption of the recommendation that this Council respectfully desire to draw the serious attention to his Majesty’s Secretary of State for the Home Department to the fact that under the present condition the law there is power to abate the rapidly increasing nuisance and annoyance caused to the residents and others of hordes of gipsies and other van dwellers camping and squatting upon the roadside in their own and adjoining districts, and to urge that all necessary steps be taken to so amend or extend the law on the subject, that local authorities may quickly be invested with the necessary powers prevent continuation of such intolerable nuisance. Councillor F. Adcock seconded. Councillor H. R. Harrison moved amendment to leave out the words hordes of. he did not think it was a description that should be applied to human beings. He knew that the word "horde ” was applied to dwellers in tents and wagons, but the same time it was closely allied to the term herd, which applied to the lower animals. He did not think they would like to be described as a herd of Councillors; and "horde” was to his mind hardly a suitable term to apply to human beings. The Mayor said the Councillors did not wander about in tents and vans. (Laughter.) Councillor R. E. Bennett thought there were several words in the resolution that might have been improved upon. But the resolution would not apply much to that district. He seconded the amendment, remarking that he believed the resolution would even then be sufficiently strong. . . the amendment was accepted without a division, and the resolution as amended carried.
Buckingham advertiser and free press
Saturday 11 April 1914
The committee recommended the adoption the resolution that had been received from Staines, and adopted by many public bodies, protesting against the nuisance caused by the camping of gipsies by the road sides, and asking for the local authorities to be given more power to deal with the matter. But in the recommendation occurred the words hordes of Gipsies." Councillor H. R. Harrison took exception to the word hordes,' as it appeared to be allied to the word “herd, and which was applied as a rule to animals, and therefore should not be Applied to human beings. It was decided to delete the word hordes. The dictionary, however, gives the definition of “horde” a tribe dwelling in tents wagons and wandering about. And which seems very applicable to the gipsy tribe.
this is what I know about the word Horde, but in 1914 it is plain to see what the authoritys thought about the People known as Gipsys
Horde Origen, a tribe or troop of tartar or other nomads deriving from polish ” horda”
turkish “ordu”…. royal camp, turdic tarta , “udar”
An army or tribe of nomadic warriors
Horde a moving pack, swarm of animals
Horde of barbarians ,savage or uncivilized people, a large group, a moving pack, swarm of animals, a tribe or troupe of Asian nomads
A wandering troop or gang especially a clan or tribe of a nomadic people migrating from place to place for the sake of pasturage and plunder
A large existed crowd, frightening and unpleasant
For it was in the primal horde that the first murder was performed, and this has haunted mankind ever since.
We should recall that man did not originally evolve in a liberal democracy, but in the primal horde
-
I will just put this on before I move on , something to think about, a Gipsys life and warmth for His Family was not worth the price of a bundle of wood, I could put hundreds of accounts on here of such cases, bear this in mind when I continue my writing
Sheffield daily telegraph july 11 1871
ROTHERHAM POLICE COURT.
MONDAY.—Before G. W. Chambers, Etq., CoL St. IIEGF.B, and Jab. Yatks, Esq. Gipsies Fined for Stealing Underwood at Wentworth —Joseph Wilsher and Joseph Wilsher. uncle and nephew, gipsies, were charged with stealing six bundles of underwood, the property of Earl Fitzwilliam, from & wood situated between Wentworth and Brampton Ball Head, about five o'clock that morning. Mr. Whitfield prosecuted, and Mr. Willis defended. It appeared that the prisoners, with a party of gipsies, where encamped near the wood, and took the fuel for their camp fire.— They were discharged on the payment of damages, and expenses.
I have traced the movements of these Serbian Gipsys across Britain, they sure get up to allsorts, but truly they are hounded like the Horde, on several accounts the authority's maybe thought they where evan spies, strange when more than likely most Gipsys of Britain are likely evan in a far way to share an ancestry directly or through Relatives with these Serbian Gipsys, so the Serbian Gipsys may be spies, and must be sent to an unprohibited area, and what of there long Cousins the hordes of Britain, soon you will see how no longer they are valued by the bundle of wood they steal to warm and feed there Children, yes soon you will see the value of there body's, or should I say price, it is a strange time indeed, yes a strange time when Gipsys of Britain became not the plundering horde but something of great value, I will leave the final judgment to you,of course we all see things through our own eyes.
Daily record Thursday 16 December 1916
SERBIAN GIPSIES.
STROLLING BAND HALTED BY MIDLOTHIAN POLICE.
A considerable number of people were attracted to Pathhead yesterday afternoon, where the Midlothian police had stopped twenty persons composing a Serbian native encampment, who, with horses, donkeys, and performing bears, were travelling "to Edinburgh Waverley Market Carnival. They had journeyed on road from London, giving entertainments at many villages. The men. accompanied by a police constable, proceeded to Dalkeith. They explained matters, but being without passports they were ordered to go back to the Scottish borders into an unprohibited area.
-
First World War
“Your country needs you”
Yes, it was not long, not long at all,no not long before Britain new, the politians new, the generals new, they new and understood Britain could no longer carry on in the fight of what came to be known as the Great War, as brave as brave could be the body count of the volunteers and standing army were being decimated on the front line, a very savage and brutal war was being fought with what seem now antiquated rules of engagement, yes best suited in my view to the Wars of a previous era, horses were still being used with echoes of the fabled infamous disaster known to us all as the "charge of the light brigade", yes Great Britain on declaring war with Germany in August 1914, new now at this defing moment, maybe they always new, yet now they new and it had become obvious that it was not possible to continue fighting by relying on voluntary recruits and what was left of the bravest of men whos comrades now litter the fields of Europe
Under the poster campaigned by Lord Kitchener which in its self had encouraged over one million men to enlist by January 1915 yet now through the death and mounting casualties
Conscription was mentioned and inturn evan thoe 200,000 are said to have demonstrated in London, conscription was introduced, what does this meen to me and you, well compulsory active service, it is true through many accounts I have read parliament and the people were divided, it is stated that the French army was near to collapse,
In March 1916 the Military Service Act was passed. Conscription on all single men aged between 18 and 41 was imposed, but exempted the medically unfit, teachers and clergymen, A second Act passed in May 1916 extended conscription to married men. in the first year over one million enlisted.
In 1918 during the last months of the war, the Military Service (No. 2) Act raised the age limit to 51. It is stated that over two million men would eventually be conscripted ,
I have read many many accounts of these times and facts ,they do differ and change but that as to be expected, I have watched hour after hour of many many documentarys of the great war, they are all there to whatch if you have a computer, a very very savage time, I will soon show you the effects on the Gipsys of Britain, the storys are very sad, it is true no one in my mind ever as liked truly Gipsys in any time scale, a bit of a fascination, yes to some, a good bit of study for others, a way to make a name for yourself, I have never really read of much that I think is honest and true, I am trying to learn things about Relatives of my Mothers, intern I hope I will help others and most importantly thoe I am a nobody and just a bit of a scag end, I will be the voice for the long Dead Gipsys, I choose and draw no distinction, no barrier, I place none higher or Lower, yet I am mindful of the quote from also a long Dead Man who like the Gipsys lives this day in my words,
"The first shall be last and the Last shall be first"
-
Nottingham evening post Saturday 1 January 1916
CABINET AND COMPULSION. REPORTED RESIGNATION OF SIR JOHN SIMON.
The ten boy correspondent says Sir —John Simon has tendered his resignation. He did not attend either of the two Cabinet meetings which were held yesterday. The Prime Minister has not yet.' accepted the resignation, in order give the Home Secretary an opportunity of withdrawing it. Though it is not expected. This is the reason why an official announcement is not issued. So far, other Minister lies resigned, and hopes are still entertained that the rest of the Cabinet may be kept together. The Cabinet will meet next Tuesday morning to settle the details of the Bill to apply compulsion.
POSSIBLE GENERAL ELECTION. No doubt is entertained, says the Daily Telegraph, that a general Election will take place should any considerable difficulty arise in the passage of the Compulsory Military Service Bill. In ordinary course the existing Parliament will expire at the end of the present month, the measure for extending its life not having yet become law.
MR. HENDERSON'S ATTITUDE. The Press Association learns that the suggestion expressed in various quarters yesterday that serious division was evident at the Labour conferences on Thursday unduly magnifies the situation. The fact, it is declared, is that Mr. Henderson. View of his Cabinet knowledge, expressed his belief in favour of supporting the policy of the Government, no matter what the immediate cost to Labour. But he declared him completely at- the disposal of his Labour colleagues. It is quite incorrect to say that there . has been any Labour split. A special meeting of the Executive Committee of the British Socialist party has been summoned for Monday next to review the situation.
UNATTESTED SINGLE MEN.
The Bill to be introduced to the House next week will say the Press Association, probably require the single men who have not attested under Lord Derby's schema to present themselves to the recruiting offices in their districts within specified term of day. and heavy penalties will laid down for failure to comply with this obligation. The intention is that these men shall, far is possible, be dealt with in groups, precisely as though they had voluntarily answered the call, and their enlistment will be subject to all the reservations hitherto laid down. There is a desire that they should be in any way marked out bad citizens. or unwilling soldiers, or differentiated when they join the ranks, from their comrades who have already answered the call. It is unlikely that any public statement disclosing detail of the new policy of the Government will be made before the introduction of the Bill.
compulsion is only the disagreeable things you have to suffer as the price of beating Germany. Rather than fail in the task to which the nation has set its hand, they will accept measures ten times more distasteful than compulsion of a small section of the nation which shows itself unworthy of British citizenship.
-
Nottingham evening post Wednesday 5 January 1916
OUR LETTER BAG.
WHAT OUGHT TO BE DONE.
Sir if the Government were led by such men— who have got more rattle than one hears in a tinker's shop—as singular male—l mean " A Single Man —I think I should all very soon be pleased to go and reside amongst the merry niggers.—I am, sir . Double You, Double You.
Sir I quite agree the need for a very eligible fit man, and proud of Tommy and Jack, but " A Single Man does not say what he is doing. Both my sons are doing their bit. but I am a collier with a family and invalid wife, and I have to consider expenses, what with war funds, ambulance levies for the convoy which it will remembered was contributed for by the Nott’s, and Derbyshire miners a few months ago, also the price on everything is being double. Would your correspondent be ready to risk his life in a coal pit six days a week? As regards soldiers' wives, why do they not return home, if will your correspondent please give a little account of himself? —I am. Sir,
Collier.
-
Military service act
Nottingham evening post 3 February 1916
Press Association.
MILITARY SERVICE ACT.
TO COME INTO OPERATION A WEEK TO-DAY.
The Press Association says the King signed proclamation at Buckingham Palace to-day under the Military Service Act, 1916, appointing the February for the Act to come into operation. It will be remembered that the Act provided that it should come into force at a date be appointed by the King and notified by proclamation.
-
you will now start to see and read through the accounts that I transcribe, the People known as the Gipsys, the authorities are starting to realise that our Country is in deep peril, but evan at this late hour a hour to for great minds to come forwards yes they still deride the Gipsys with great dirty insults
Sussex agricultural express Friday 5 February 1915
LABOUR SHORTAGE. The Chairman, reporting the meeting of the National Executive, stated that they met a high official of the Board of Agriculture the question was the shortage of labour. He thought the meeting did considerable amount of good, and if their trouble in the future was to be labour, and he was afraid it would be, it would be an advantage to get in touch with the Government through one of its departments, such the Board of Agriculture. Mr. E. J. Bates thought the best way to retaining married men was to fight for Conscription. In his district there were young men of the gipsy class who did practically no work except collecting few rabbit skins. Under Conscription these men would have to go, and the married men could remain on the land. The Chairman—That point was raised, but did not receive support. I,m afraid it should prejudice ourselves against large section of people supporting it. The Secretary reported progress in several Branches, and a number of new members were elected.
-
Today's proclamation the result.
Nottingham evening post Thursday 6 April 1916
CERTIFIED OCCUPATIONS.
RESULT OF REVISION OF THE LIST.
DELETIONS AND ADDITIONS.
The Press Bureau issued at late hour last night a number of pamphlets dealing with the effect of the further revision of the certified occupations. The new list, which bears the date April 4th, 1916, shows that compared with the previous lists the exemptions in many occupations now apply only to married men and to single men over certain specified ages. In addition this limitation men of all certified occupations except those employed in the railway service and in occupations for which this Ministry of Munitions and the Home Office respectively stand responsible, can only be exempted if they can show that they were similarly occupied on or before the date of the National Register, August 15th, 1915. Certain trades and some occupations (given below) have been entirely removed from the list, and in other cases the list of exempted occupations has been modified.
The general result of all these alterations to reduce considerably the number of exemptions. On the other hand, a few small trades have been added to the list. The certificate covering the occupations marked M.M. (Ministry of Munitions) will expire on May Ist, and afterwards men will only be exempted on the ground of the requirements of munitions work, if they' are entitled to hold a war service badge, certificate, or are on May Ist the subject of appointment for war service badges, upon which a decision has not yet been given by the Ministry of Munitions. As a consequence of this provision some modifications will be made in the list of certified occupations before May Ist.
TRADES ELIMINATED.
The following are the trades which have been removed from the list: Metal, Engineering, and Shipbuilding. Galvanised sheet manufacture, M.M- Tinplate manufacture. Textile Trades. Lace trade. Silk trade. Carpet manufacture. Pilo fabric manufacture. Oilcloth, linoleum, floor-cloth, table basics, and leather cloth manufacture. Clothing Trades. Shirt and brace manufacture (wholesales). Paper, Printing, and Allied Trades. Paper manufacture. Chemical, Oil, Paint, &c., Trades. Printing ink manufacture. Food and Tobacco Trades. Fruit-and vegetable markets (wholesale). Retail butchers' shops. Tobacco manufacture.
EXEMPTION ALTERED.
The list of occupations in regard to which exemption has been altered covers five pages of foolscap printed matter. It includes occupations under the headings of: Mining and quarrying. Metal, engineering, and shipbuilding Textile and allied trades, including the cotton, woollen, worsted, and hosiery finishing industries, ramie spinning, fustian cutting, bleaching, dyeing, calico printing. Clothing trades (boots and shoes). Transport trades. Paper, printing, and allied trades, including cardboard box making and newspaper printing. Brush manufacture. Cement, pottery, brick, and glass trades. Chemical, oil, and paint trades. Leather trade. Food and tobacco trades, including milk, grocery, and provisions. Public and public utility service. The following trades have been added to the list: Mining and Quarrying. Fuller's Earth Quarries —Getter, kilnman. Patent Fuel Works—Foreman, beltman or loader, trolleyman. Metal, Engineering, and Shipbuilding. Electrical Accumulator Manufacture —Departmental manager, foreman, caster, mixer, paster, lead burner, forming man, battery erector. Mica Manufacture (for electrical or scientific appliances)— Departmental manager, foreman, mica machine worker. Nickel Manufacture—All classes workmen. M.M. slag wool maker. Textile and Allied Trades. Woolen Felt Manufacture—Foreman, hardener, < dyer'a labourer, tenderer. Canvas Waterproofing Trade—Foreman, mixer, machine man, calender man. Export Packing Warehouses. Textile —Case packer, press packer (hydraulio and electric), goods hoistman, salesman. Clothing Trades. Clog Making—All classes of workmen. Transport Trades. Ships' Store Warehouses—Buyer, head warehouseman, hoistman, loader, head packer. Paper, Printing, and Allied Trades. Jacquard Card Manufacture —Foreman, machine man. Building, Woodworking, and Allied Trades. Wood Hoop Manufacture—Wood hoop maker, wood hoop bender. Wood Last Factories—Wood last maker. Cement, Pottert, Brioe, and Glass Trades. Sanitary Drain Pipe and Chemical Ware Manufac- kilnman, loader. Fireclav Goods, Manufacture of—Maker, kilnman. Lather .Trades. Comb and gill leather maker. Food and Tobacco Trades. Split Pea and Lentil Trade—Foreman, kilnman, machine minder.
CERTIFICATES TO BE REVOKED.
Accompanying the revised lists is a circular from Mr Long to local tribunals and appeal tribunals enclosing a copy of a new Order in Council making additional regulations under the Military Service Act, 1916, and a copy of new instructions relating to voluntarily attested men. The new regulations applying to cases of men who come under the
-
Nottingham evening post Thursday April 13 1916
TO ENSURE VICTORY.
Sir Arthur Markham on Monday will ask the Prime Minister whether he is still of the opinion of the majority of the Cabinet and Lord Kitchener that the Military Service Act, 1916, will give the country sufficient men to ensure victory.
-
Yorkshire evening post Monday 6 march 1916
THE GIPSY AND ENLISTMENT
Mr. Walter son-in-law, Colonel Gibbs. the member for Bristol, ask in the House this week whether the gipsy manhood is being brought under the provisions of the Military Service ACT. It IS understood that the tent dwellers did not get a National Registration card. In any case it would affect but few men, as the total number of men Women and child gipsies in this country probably do not exceed twelve thousand. The nomadic habits of your pure-blooded gipsy would probably make him averse from the discipline of an army. But it is suggested that, being traditionally famed as tinsmiths and shoeing smiths, they might be put to munition work or sent into the army veterinary department. Or Being from time immemorial noted horsemasters they might be invited to lend a hand in the remount department.
West Briton and cornwall advertiser Monday 6 march 1916
Compulsion in Force.
On Tuesday the Military Service Act came into operation, and single men between the 18 and 41 who had not voluntarily attested before midnight on the said day came under the operation of the Act. In other words they were “deemed to have enlisted." An official form, printed on yellow paper, and described on its face as “ Notice paper to be sent to men who belong to the Army Reserve under the provisions of the Military Service Act 1916," has been, and will shortly be sent to each man brought within the scope of the Act. The document bears the following words: “You are hereby warned that you will be required to join for service with the colours The earliest call is for March 6, and the latest date, among the yellow forms posted on Thursday, was March 20. An addendum the notice states that men who fail to answer it will be treated as deserters. . . An important official notice appertaining to recruiting is, say “The Daily Telegraph," to expected in the course of the next few days. It relates to starred and or "certified men. The Earl of Derby's report stated that more than 600.000 single men attested under his scheme were starred, while 378.071 starred single men did not attest. A considerable percentage of both these classes of men will probably be called upon to join the colours, or to show cause why they should not do so.
-
Derby daily telegraph Wednesday 8 march 1916
TO-DAY'S PARLIAMENT.
House of Commons, Tuesday. The Speaker took the chair at 2. 45
GIPSY BACHELORS AND THE ARMY.
Mr. Tennant, answering Col. Gibbs. Said that where unmarried gipsies were British subjects they were liable to the provisions of the Military Service Act the same as other; persons of less nomadic habits, and steps were being taken secure the service of men to whom the Act applied, without they were confirmed only casual nomads.
-
Manchester evening news Monday 11 September 1916
A Wireless Press
Rome message says the Hungarian Government taking a census of the Ziganes (nomad gipsies) in the country, as it is no longer known where to turn for men, and it contemplates using these as auxiliary troops,
-
"Gipsy Hunts"
Extract from the web site western Europe
In 1734, the Landgrave of Hesse offered six “Reichstaler” for every “Gypsy” captured alive, and half the amount for every killed one.
Incentives of this kind were at the basis of the notorious “Gypsy hunts”, during which the Roma were hunted like game by the town people.
In Saxony, such houndings were called “Kesseltreiben” and were considered public entertainment.
In the inherited Austrian territories the Roma were not treated less brutally than in other parts of the Holy Roman Empire. Only in Hungary, more exactly in the western parts of Hungary, which had stayed under the reign of Habsburg after the Turkish invasion, some local rulers tended to tolerate the Roma as long as they could be useful. For instance, György Thurzo, Palatine of the Hungarian Empire, in 1616 allowed a group of Roma to settle on his territory and to go about their work as smiths, which was useful for the Hungarian nobility for war
When I have been researching I have found out that nothing is knew under the sun, I have researched also conscription, well the ideal and feel of this strange savage cruel yet to be argued needed forced armed bondage, The Gipsys don’t need the likes of me talking for them, they are strong and Proud, what did they know of the Black Hand, and their Slavic fight for Freedom, what did the Gipsys of Britain know of the rivalries of the European monarchs, I tell you what they did no, they havue been a despised People from the dawn of their first flight, unlike what as been writen I would say they are a mixed People with a mixed lanuage that replects the many times and countrys ,pluss the many People they have met along the way, I am learning day by day from joining RootsChat, and soon will ask some questions, I hope Relatives now and in the future will join this web site and learn to through my words and others, try and read all the storys I will soon tell, if I get something wrong know I am on my own terms speaking for the long Dead Gipsys, only They may judge me
-
Quote from Jane Austen
Imagine that your beloved husband or son suddenly disappeared after meeting friends at a neighborhood bar, and that you would not know for months what had happened to them. You fear that he has been taken by a pressgang.
In Jane Austen’s time, Great Britain fought long wars over land and sea. Since medieval times it had been the royal prerogative to impress free men into a seamen’s service. The custom was roundly condemned, except in cases of
“necessity of the sudden coming in of strange enemies into the kingdom.”
During times of war, “the temptation of impressment” was “too strong to be resisted by Parliament.” And so pressgang would roam towns and the countryside to take men against their will to serve in His Majesty’s navy
-
Newcastle courant Saturday 26 April 1729
LONDON, April 19
Last Saturday a young Fellow was pressed as he was going to Church with his Bride to be married, the Bride begged hard to be married before they carried him off, but this being a Religious Press Gang, they would carry him off before Marriage, because they said it would be a Sin to part Man and Wife.
Stamford mercury Wednesday 21 march 1716
last Saturday a Press-Gang being in the Strand, had Information of a Sailor lodging in near the Water-side, the Lieutenant of the Gang going up to his Chamber, and the Sailor having notice of it, leaped out of a Window two Pair of Stairs,, into the Thames and was drowned.
Calonian mercury Thursday 3 February 1726
The Press for Seamen continues very hot, most of the Merchant Ships in the River being cleared of their Men ; and we suddenly expect to hear a Call made for the Watermen, of whom several Thou- sands may be spared. A Press-gang having the other Day taken one of the Harponiers belonging to the Greenland Ships, the Men resisted, and wounded the Lieutenant of the Gang so dangerously , that 'tis reported he is since dead.
Newcastle courant Saturday 17 November 1739
Extract of a Letter from Liverpool; Nov. 13.
Yesterday the Press-Gang of one of his Majesty's Tenders boarded a Jamaica Ship which was just come in; and carried off not only such of the Crew as they inclined, but even impressed the Mate, whom they also fondly drubbed, for pretending to tell them they were doing amiss. This Morning he broke out of the Tender's Hold, and stripping, thought to have escaped by swimming, but unfortunately perished. The Merchants here are drawing up Remonstrance’s to the Admiralty on this affair.
Hampshire chronicle Monday 18 august 1777
A terrible affray happened on Monday at Hungroad about ten miles from Bristol, between the press-gang under the command Lieut. Brice, and the crews of a Jamaica fleet just come in. The poor fellows had no sooner landed on terra firma and made the hearts of thousands glad by the seight they had brought home, than a gang, under the sanction of a press-warrant, attempted to force them on board their tender the honest tars roused with indignation resisted, and in the affray one sailor lost his life, and eight or ten were desperately wounded.
-
Newcastle courant Saturday 17 November 1739
Extract of a Letter from Liverpool; Nov. 13.
Yesterday the Press-Gang of one of his Majesty's Tenders boarded a Jamaica Ship which was just come in; and carried off not only such of the Crew as they inclined, but even impressed the Mate, whom they also fondly drubbed, for pretending to tell them they were doing amiss. This Morning he broke out of the Tender's Hold, and stripping, thought to have escaped by swimming, but unfortunately perished. The Merchants here are drawing up Remonstrance’s to the Admiralty on this affair.
Ipswich journal Saturday 26 march 1726
A homeward bound Ship newly arrived from France, having the usual Visit paid them by a Man of War's Boat, all the Crew locked themselves up in their Chests, except those that were absolutely necessary for the Safety of the Ship, by which Stratagem they escaped the Press. Last Week as a Labourer was going over Black-Heath to work, he met with four Fellows who pressed the poor Man , but he begging heartily, and telling them his Family must starve, &c. they yielding to his ln- treaties, provided he would give them some Money, which he complying, they marched off. In a quarter of an Hour he falls into another Gang, with a Lieu- tenant, who likewise stopped him, upon which he be- moans his Condition, saying, it was a very ill Fortune to be pressed twice in a Day, that he had not one Farthing left, having given half a Guinea and three Shillings to the other Press Gang. The Lieutenant hearing the Story went in Quest of those who had extorted the Money from him, and found them car- rousing at an Ale- House, and that they were the Press-Masters; upon which he ordered the Labourer his Money, set him at Liberty and carried off the other Chaps.
Newcastle courant Saturday 5 June 1725
London, May 27.
Yesterday a Sessions of Admiralty was held at the Old Baily, and three Persons were found guilty of several Pyracies and Felonies com- mitted by them in the West Indies. The Pyrates that acted on board the Revenge, lately taken in the Orkneys on the North of Scotland, were also found guilty of divers Pyracies and Murders committed by them. John Smith the Captain of the said Pyrate Ship refusing to plead, had his Thumbs drawn with Whip-cord, and he is to be pressed to Day, unless he submits to plead guilty or not guilty.
Newcastle courant Friday 5 January 1739
From several London Prints, Dec. 29,
We hear that last Night Letters came to the Admiralty- Office from Vice Admiral Vernon in the West-Indies. The Cumberland, an 8o Gun Ship, that has for some time lain as a Guard-ship at Long-Reach, is ordered to be victualled with all Expedition for a Voyage. Yesterday a strong Press Gang, of about forty Sailors. and three Officers, visited Tower-Hill and the Parts adjacent, and swept off a good Number of Seamen for his Majesty's Service, who were immediately clapt on board the Tenders, lying off the Tower for that Purpose.
Derby mercury Thursday 20 February 1794
A curious matter was heard on Monday before the Borough Police, respecting the wife of a gentleman at Sheerness, who had eloped with a black servant. They were pursued to the Nag's Head in the Borough on Sunday, where Blackey fired a pistol at his pursuers, for which he was taken up and committed. The Lady had two children by her husband. The matter we understand, is since settled in the following manner: The husband took her two children and all the property he found in the coach, de- sired his wife to go where she pleased, after she said she'd live with no other but the Black, and Mungo who was then taken by a press-gang, and put on board the tender.
-
strange how words linger,I know this is a different example
but who can not love words
Portsmouth evening news Tuesday 25 June 1901
Strawberry Land.
Under this title the Globe an interesting article on the cultivation of the strawberry in Hampshire, and remarks a tremendous growth of the culture of the sweet red berry in the district of which Salisbury is the centre From Fareham alone as many as twelve or thirteen 'strawberry trains' a day leave for London, and many as fifty tons have been known to off one day. Locally the price of the baskets starts at half-a-crown, for the six pounds, going down the height of the season to low as four pence and two pence a pound. The cultivation needs much time and care outside the harvest time. Annually the runners have to be taken up and new beds planted. Three years is the life of a bed. The third year it allowed to run wild, unhoed, unweeded, but yields, nevertheless, often good berries even in its old age. The coming of the loop line from Southampton to Portsmouth, over the Hamble at Bursledon Bridge, has opened out the country and made the markets more accessible. Last year, Royalty on its way back from a visit to the sick and wounded at Netley Hospital, hard by, drove round that way to see the fields, which scent the air for miles along the road. The gipsies are "pressed" into the service when the picking season begins. Hampshire is a great haunt of the gipsies, with its great waste of forest lands. There are more of them be found here than in any other county, and the diocese keeps a missioner specially to attend to their spiritual needs.
Hampshire advertiser Saturday 20 august 1904
That so short is the supply of harvest labourers in Hampshire that in one case a whole camp of gipsies was pressed into the service
-
Aberdeen journal 31 may 1898
THE GIPSY TRIBES.
The frequent allusions cf late in the “Chronicie'’ to the gipsy tribe in the neighbourhood of Yetholm writes a correspondent recalls an incident the particulars of which are yet told at many a farmer's ingle in Aberdeenshire. It is well known that the 92nd, Gordon Highlanders, were raised in 1794 by the late Duke of Gordon, then Marquis Huntly. And by his mother, the beautiful, and witty Duchess Jane; but the method! By which the thinned ranks of the regiment were once recruited during the Peninsular war, preceding the battle of Waterloo, has not became much a matter of history.
It appears that the county gentlemen of the shire were sorely beset how best to meet the ever-recurring applications for drafts from home, and in thier extremity they bethought themselves of a plan, the carrying out which would bring in its train a two-fold gain strengthening the ranks of the Gordons and
"clear the shires of the gang of tinkers and gipsies"
which it was over run. The scheme was carried into effect with success, all the able-bodied tinkers being seized and conveyed to the nearest seaport. Few of them returned from the Peninsula, but the old pensioners were wont to declare that the tinkers were at once the greatest thieves and the smartest soldiers in the regiment. “Newcastle Chronicle.”
-
Gipsies pressed ganged
The Essex Chronicle of 1779
Monday, upwards of 30 stout fellows, who call themselves gypsies, and get their bread by plundering the poor country farmers of their livestock, having some intimation given them of their being likely to be pressed, cut off the first joint of their forefingers in order to avoid serving his Majesty.
-
Derbyshire times and chest field herald Saturday 24 November 1928
POLICE OBSTRUCTION
Chesterfield Van Dwellers Summoned.
A disturbance in Knifesmith Gate, Chesterfield. had a sequel at the local Police Court Monday, when James Callender and Fred Shephard, van-dwellers, Bold Rodney Yard, Chesterfield, were summoned for obstructing a police constable while in the execution of his duty. P.c. Turner said that he was in plain clothes in Knifesmith Gate, when he considered it was his duty to arrest a man named Smith (who was accompanied by the two defendants) for being drunk and disorderly. When he caught hold of Smith Shephard said:
“You leave him alone. You have no right to touch him when you have not got your proper clothes on. If you take him you are taking the three of us.”
As a result of the defendants’ obstruction witness eventually had to let Smith go, and his companions managed to get him away. Witness later chased them in company with another constable, to the Rodney Yard. where he arrested Smith, and told the two defendants that they would be reported. In reply to questions by the defendants, witness denied that he came out of the “King’s Head” With a bottle in his hand, adding that the allegation was ridiculous. Callender, in the witness-box. Said that the man Jack Smith had had a fit and shouted
“They killed my brother in the war, and you are not going to kill me. I’ll fight the lot of you.”
When P.c. Turner came up witness pointed out that Smith was not doing any harm, whereupon the constable squeezed his hand, and witness made him let go. There was no obstruction. Witness added, reply to Chief Inspector Parkin, that he really caught hold the constable’s thumb to make him release his hold. He saw the constable come from the direction of the “King’s Head.” but he would not swear he was carrying a bottle, although he had an object of some kind in his hand. Shephard said that he did not know P.c. Turner was policeman at the time, "as he was dressed rough,” he added. In fact he was dressed worse than myself. Turner, alleged witness, used bad language and said that he was not a constable. but afterwards stated that he might be. He certainly had a bottle his hand. At this stage the defendant burst into tears and cried out:
“It was Flanders Day on Sunday. God help us .”
In reply to Chief Inspector Parkin, who remarked that it was a serious allegation to make, defendant repeated his previous statement with reference to the constable carrying a bottle. There was. he said, no obstruction, as he did not do anything to the constable. After the Bench had arrived at their decision in private, the Mayor ,'Coun. P. M. Robinson) said that the magistrates considered that the defendant had been very foolish, but in view of their previous good record they would be let off on payment of costs. Mr. W. Jaoques. AM- T. W. Lack, Mr. R. Eyre and Mr. G. J. Edmunds also adjudicated
-
Belper news Friday 12 July 1918
THEFT OF BRASS.
ALLEGED RECEIVERS COMMITTED FOR TRIAL
Charged with receiving brass, Levi and his wife Minnie smith, john smith junr
of the bold Rodney yard Brampton chesterfield Derbyshire
MR W.E.Wakerley defended john smith
Mr Wakerley said his client had been discharged from the Army on account of nervous debility. He did not usually deal in scrap metal and did not know the regulation regarding it. He Dealt, mostly in rags and bones, Insp. Parkin said had known John Smith four years. He had been buying metal all his life when he could get hold of it. Witness had spoken to him about metal transactions at least 50 times, and he knew as much about the regulations as witness did. Prisoner was not very intelligent, but was possessed of any amount of low cunning. Levi and Minnie smith were committed to the Quarter sessions for trial; the charge of receiving against John Smith was dismissed, but was fined for purchasing smaller quantity of brass than was allowed in law.
-
I feel I have read this persons words before but as yet have not traced him, do you hear the way he talks, just like hes talking of attractions at a circus, startling novelty he says, herrmmm
Lincolnshire echo Monday 14 august 1916
One sunny afternoon recently at Hampton court Station I saw an unusual sight a young gipsy conscript who was leaving to join the Colours. His eyes were full of tears, on the platform his gipsy father and his gipsy mother, his gipsy sister, and his gipsy sweetheart were seeing him off, and all the women were absolutely rocking with grief Even the gipsy father was crying. After the tram had left the gipsies went sobbing into the sunshine and then doubled themselves up on their little cart and howled. What an extraordinary sight, but, of course enforced military service for romany chals is a novelty in this country, and that is why the tears are flowing freely in the tans and the gipsy Mothers and sweethearts are demonstrative in their douleur. I should like to have had a minutes chat in their own language with the dusky daughters Egypt the gipsies are really descendants of Pali, a tribe in India—but their grief was so pronoused and so public that I felt the moment was not propitious for a Gorgio to attempt an interview. so I watched them from a respectful distance. I wanted ascertain at first hand the gipsy view of compulsory military service. I was informed by a friendly fly-driver who was also a lookeron said that the Hampton gipsies had been hiding their young men. and that there had been considerable difficulty in getting hold them for War purposes. But quite a number of young gipsies are now wearing the Kings uniform. And as soon as the get over the startling novelty of military life they will probably make Very good soldiers
-
Aberdeen journal Monday 11 September 1916
RAID ON GIPSY CAMP.
The Lynton police and military representatives made a systematic search at Exmoor at two o'clock on Saturday morning four young fellows who were attempting to evade military service. A gipsy camp was found, and a roundup started. Many of the men with little clothing on bolted from under the tent curtains; two were taken near the Moles Chamber. It was stated that one had grown a beard to make him look older, and said he was 42. The Barnstaple magistrates fined both £2, and ordered them to be handed over to the military authorities.
"Other raids of a similar nature are proceeding"
-
Reading mercury Saturday 18 November 1916
Before C. A. Hawker, Esq Military Absentees.
Privates Nelson Davis and Henry Roberts were charged with being absentees from the 3rd Hants Regiment, stationed at Gosport, and pleaded guilty. P.B. Hutson said that on the previous day he visited a gipsy encampment in “Pinniger’s Park” and saw the two men, whom he asked to produce their passes. These were found to expire Sunday night. They were remanded in custody to await an escort. Alluding the gipsy encampment, the Mayor said that hardly a day passed but that he received complaints from residents in the locality of the conditions prevailing there, and asked the police if anything could done in the matter. Inspector Boulter said that the travelling people paid rent for use of the field, and this made it impossible for the police to act, although they were quite anxious to do so. Several of the gipsies were in court, and from the statement made by one them it appeared that the period for which they had paid rent had now expired. The Clerk thereupon said that they must
"clear out".
The matter had been before the Sanitary Committee of the Corporation, who were most anxious to away with the disgusting conditions that prevailed at this camp, almost in the centre the town. At the request the Mayor, Inspector Boulter undertook to see the owner in the matter.
-
Coventry evening telegraph Thursday 9 march 1916
Coventry recruiting tribunal
A Gipsys claim
Coventry Recruiting Tribunal. A claim.
Coventry Military Service Tribunal again sat this afternoon. Mr. It. A. Rotherham presided, and were also present Councillors and A. C .Bannington, Captain Kay (Recruiting Officer) and Mr. A. F. Gregory (for the military authorities), and the Clerk Mr. A. B, Lemon. An unusual case was beard in which a gipsy— travelling hawker —applied to the Court for exemption.
The man was Herbert Peter Buckland, of no fixed abode, working between Birmingham and Berkswell. The Clerk reported that the claim was lodged after the date, and the Tribunal inquired into the circumstances which led to this. Applicant stated that he could not read or write. He was not able read the newspaper.
” I have talked to a gentleman, and they have told me that they could not fetch me away because I am the only one to support my old mother,” he said.
Questioned to why, being only young man, he could not write, said he had never been to school more than three weeks in his life. Councillor Wyle’s: How did you escape the school attendance officer? — They never troubled us. The Chairman: If I gave you a cheque for £10, what, would you do with it. i should have to leave it to your honesty. I Have never taken a cheque in my life. You are a gipsy, are you not; — yes, known all over Warwickshire.
Applicant said that his mother was at that moment living ill in their caravan at Sparkbrook; she was 77 years of age. He had thought of his mother or he should have gone into the Army before now.
A letter was read from man who knew Buckland he said that he and his mother were of the genuine Romany tribe, and if the old mother were transferred from her van to a house she would soon die. Captain Kay, these people live a strange life and military life would be stranger to them than others probably. He suggested a conditional exemption.
Temporary and conditional exemption till June 30th was allowed.
-
Yorkshire Evening Post 5 November 1917
GIPSIES HIDING IN A CHALK PIT.
At a Kent police court, three gipsies were convicted of stealing fowls and trespassing in search of game.
it was stated that, to avoid being called up for military service, the men took refuse in a chalk pit at night. Round the entrance they placed wire entanglements on which hung tins and bottles, which gave a warning of any persons approach, and two dogs were placed on guard.
During a recent raid, however, the attention of the dogs was diverted, and a police sergeant was able to affect the arrest of the men by getting into the chalk pit through another entrance.
-
I will just travel back now, try to feel into the words, as you will see more laws, more regulations, Gipsys have always one way or the other been under the kosh, herrmm where have I heard that word before
Beverley east riding recorder Saturday 28 April 1888
THE GIPSIES. bill has been introduced to the House of Commons proposing a most drastic and important powers for registering, supervising, and regulating the vans or other vehicles used as movable abodes the itinerant population—namely, the hawkers and others known as gipsies. It is proposed that all such vans, Ac. shall by registered by the sanitary or local authorities, who shall duly letter or mark or number such travelling abodes. The number, age, sex of every person using such van shall reported, and the local or sanitary authorities shall have power to fix the number of persons who shall be allowed to dwell and sleep in any given travelling van. Powers are also proposed which the authorities may scrutinise the sanitary and other arrangements, and if it seems good to them may stipulate that no more than a given number persons may sleep in van, which in the case of gipsy with a family would be ruinous. Moreover the Local Government Board is to be enabled to exercise a paternal control over the education of such gipsy children. Officers from the Education Department will leave orders about school attendance, and the sanitary inspectors will have the power of looking into the bedroom accommodation and other domestic arrangements of the gipsy's house on wheels.
-
Gipsy Children for generations had not had much schooling, below is just a few examples, when you read the next few pages you may start to understand more, I also put the other names along with the Gipsy named Eliza Woods, they didn't want to be forgotten either
Sheffield independent Friday 14 march 1879
Sheffield town hall
Second court school board prosecutions the following persons were fined for neglecting to send their children regularly to school Henry Wiltshire hawker 26 court, 6 house, high street.
Beverley east riding recorder
Sheffield independent February 1891
SHEFFIELD TOWN HALL — Before the Stipendiary Magistrates.
School board prosecutions William Wiltshire, hawker Pond Street
Western chronicle 1 November 1912
Thursday.— Before Col. J. R. P. Godden (in the chair), Messrs Geo. Gordon, A. S. Williams, Norman McLean, P. H. Rawson and Aid. A. Dingley who was recently made magistrate for the county. A Gipsy’s Offence.— Nelson Cooper, gipsy, was summoned for encamping on the highway at Bishop Down, in the parish of Folke.—P .c. Pearce proved the charge, and defendant was fined 2s 6d with 5s 6d costs. Eliza Woods, gipsy, summoned under the Children’s Act for not sending her children to school, and further she’ was charged with encamping, on the highway. Harry Light, gipsy, charged with allowing horse to stray, also with encamping the highway. Benjamin Denham, gipsy, summoned for tethering a donkey on the highway, also with encamping on the highway.
-
Children in school years, had and new of other children who also where schooled in the military mind set, a great love for King or Queen intern Empire, I have listened to documentary's about such things, also a very sad fact is , but they say it is true, well most of the young educated men from the university's were killed, like there working class countrymen they were raised to be trained,
Gipsy Children seldom had the opportunity to belong to this country in such matters, always in one way or another they were raised with the fact that they where on the run, they where outsiders, this is a true fact , be objective and feel into the words that I continue to write, many many Gipsy Men went on to die fighting for this country, they where taken by the authoritys by forse, many taken to their death on foreigne soil, they to where mostly just Lads, they to like their countrymen ,educated or working class, yes , they to died a sorrowful frightening death, a sad time for all, may they All , All of them , All of them, Rest in Eternal Peace
Hull daily mail Wednesday 10 June 1914
LETTERS TO EDITOR. BOYS' NAVAL BRIGADE SDGGESTIONS FOR A CORPS IN HULL.
TO THE EDITOR OF THE " MAIL.
" Sir, a few days ago there appeared in your columns a paragraph and letter, the letter from Mr Smith, the hon. secretary of the newly formed Boys' Brigade, relative to the urgent need there is for Hull to organise a boys corps, similar to what are to be found in several districts of London, also in Gravesefied, Leicester, Littlehampton, Campbelltown, Plymouth, Norwich, Reading, Windsor, etc. etc. I am led to ask for an insertion of this letter because only a few years ago, when the Hull branch of the Navy League was in full swing, a discussion took place from time to time on the necessity of starting a branch of the Boys' Naval Cadet Corps, but unfortunately action did not succeed in discussion.
In a letter received from headquarters, Gofton Salmond, lieutenant-commander, RN.. states that if Hull, organises a branch he shall be pleased to come down and inspect and address the boys. No doubt your readers are acquainted with the objects, which are highly commendatory, i.e., to teach the boys habits of discipline, duty, and self-respect, in order that they may be educated to believe in the British Empire and the British Navy, whereon the Empire rests and depends for its existence. I may say the boys wear a uniform resembling that of the bluejackets in the Royal Navy. They are provided with competent Navy petty officer instructors, who teach them seamanship, gunnery, signalling, boatwork, etc., combined with a proper course of instruction in physical exercise. According to your correspondent, there will be a meeting on Wednesday, at 7.30 p.m., in the Royal Institution, when all persons interested in the future of the Empire and of the lads will be welcomed, that committee may be formed, with president, vice-presidents, etc., which will insure success. I hope Hull will not be behind the places mentioned, but in a small way emulate London, which possesses ten branches, supported by gentlemen of all political creeds, and also ladies.
€I am, Sir, etc., WILLIAM STEPHENSON (Hon. Treasurer). 11, Scale-lane, Hull, June 8th, 1914.
-
Western gazette Friday 15 may 1914
THE BOYS' BRIGADE, DEATH OF SIR WILLIAM A. SMITH, THE FOUNDER.
The founder and secretary of the Boys' Brigade, Sir William Alexander Smith, died London, Friday, aged sixty. He was present at the annual demonstration of the Boys' Brigade at the Albert Hall last Thursday, and was suddenly taken ill the next day. The King has sent the following telegram to Lord Guthrie, president of the Boys' Brigade:— The King has learnt with much regret of the sudden death of Sir William Smith, whose name will ever be remembered as the founder and friend of the Boys' Brigade. Stamfordham. The late Sir W. A. Smith was born in Glasgow and educated at Thurso Academy. In 1874 he joined the Ist Lanarkshire Rifle Volunteers, and retired as hon. colonel a few years ago. 1883, with two colleagues, he banded together thirty boys as the “boys’ brigade," and the local effort in Glasgow at once spread. To-day the brigade numbers 70,000 officers and boys in United Kingdom and 120,000 throughout the world. Faced with the choice of giving up his business or brigade. Sir William chose, with great personal sacrifice, the former course.
R.i.P
-
Coventry standard Friday 15 September 1916
POLICE RAID ON A GIPSY ENCAMPMENT
Elias Smith, gipsy, of no fixed abode, was charged' with being an absentee under the Military Service Act. Inspector Tuckwell said Sunday last, at 6.15 a.m. in company with Sergeant Ross, P.c. Spiers, and P.c. Padbury, visited a gipsy encampment at Lea Marston. They to a Went to a van and called the prisoner’s father up, and told him he had reason to believe that there were three or four young men of military age in the camp. The father denied that this was so, and after the van had been searched in vain the prisoner was found with two others in an old trap with a tent rigged around it. The prisoner was very excited, and gave the name of Eli Smith, and said his age was 17. He had lost his registration card, he said. On Tuesday last the inspector was shown by the prisoner’s sister a baptismal certificate of Isaiah Smith, dated November, 1899. On being further questioned the prisoner’s mother said Isaiah died by drowning some years ago, and they had since then called Eli Isaiah'. The prisoner made the statement that he was not old enough, but if he had got to go he would go. Mary Smith, mother of the prisoner, said her son was 17 years age last June, and produced a baptismal certificate of Isaiah Smith. The Magistrates told the witness it was the birth certificate which was required as evidence. Being asked by the clerk if the prisoner was not a big youth for 17, the witness replied, “ He was always fed well, and had little work.” (Laughter.) The Magistrates made the order for the prisoner to be handed over to the military authorities. John Smith, a cousin of the last prisoner, who was found at the same time and place, was also charged. Inspector Tuckwell, in his evidence, said the prisoner claimed to be 18 all but for two months, and the father and mother also state he would be 18 next November. The inspector said the prisoner’s father brought a letter from the Rev. IT. H. Malleson, rector of Castle Bromwich, who was well known among the gipsies. The rector expressed his opinion that from what had been told the prisoner was born in 1899.and Was not quite 17. The inspector said he had informed the rector that the letter could not be accepted evidence. The prisoner’s registration card was issued at Birmingham, but the authorities at the Curzon Hall, when appealed to, said they had no trace, and the prisoner should be dealt with where he was found. Edward Smith, father of the prisoner, said his permanent address was 17, Halford Road, Witton, and the registration card was filled in at Witton. The witness said the boy was only 17; and he had two other sons in the army, and now in the trenches. The eldest was 21, and the next 19. In reply to the chairman the witness said he might be able to find some record of the birth of his son. The Chairman asked the military representative, if the Magistrates ordered the prisoner to be handed over to the authorities, whether he would be released providing the birth certificate was produced to prove he was not 18. The military representative replied in the affirmative, and the Magistrates accordingly made the order for prisoner to be handed over.
-
Western times Friday 23 February 1917
AT MORTETONHAMPSTEAD POLICE COURT
James Stanley, William Stanley, and Thomas Stanley, were charged with being absentees under the military service act, p.c.Broad, Changford, said observations had been kept, and on February 13 in company with a constable in plain cloths he proceeded to the moor near Lettaford north Bovey and succeeded in arresting the men .
p.c. Osmond, Morton, said the defendants had given a lot of trouble to the police, and had been wanted a considerable time.
The bench fined the defendants 2 pounds each and ordered them to be handed over to the military authorities; they also complimented p.c.Broad on his vigilance.
-
Sheffield evening telegraph Wednesday 2 October 1918
Today’s Cases.
Raid on Van Dwellers.
The Sheffield Police Court, to-day. Before Mr. E. Wild and Councillor Blanchard, Thomas Wiltshire, of March Street, Atterlife, was charged with failing to report for military service. His brother, Henry Wiltshire, of the same address, was charged with a similar offence. The defendants were hawkers, and dwelt in vans. Early this morning the vans, huts and tents at the end of March Street were raided by Detective-sergeant Cannock and Detective officer Garnham. They apprehended the prisoners, who could not produce cards exempting them from military service. The defendants, who admitted that they had no exemption cards, were fined 40s. Each, and ordered to be handed over to the military authorities.
-
Exeter and Plymouth gazette Monday 10 April 1916
ABSENTEES
John and Edwin Orchard, brothers, were up brought for failing to report themselves under the Military Service Act. Accused were arrested earlier in the day at, Boyton, where with other gipsies, they were encamped. Both defendants stated they could, not read, and, consequently, were unable to learn what the proclamation was about. Captain Coode, Recruiting-officer, said, although this might be so, they could have applied to the proper authorities. Each defendant was fined 40s and handed over to the escort.
-
Wells journal Friday august 1917
Absentee.
Jesse Hughes, alias John Loveridge, was charged with being an absentee under the Military Service Act. Prisoner pleaded guilty. PC. Whittier deposed arresting the prisoner near Burnham-on-Sea. He was with a gipsy named Penford. Fined 2 pound and remanded in custody pending the arrival of an escort.
-
Sheffield evening telegraph Wednesday 13 september1916
GIPSY’S EXCUSE.
Two absentees under the Military Service Act were before Alderman G. A. Eastwood at Chesterfield, to-day. George Henry Knight (21). Travelling hawker was arrested as the result of a round-up of a gipsy encampment in Green Lane. Stoney Houghton, by Sergeant Rowland and Constable Humphrey. The camp was first observed late on Monday night and the police, waiting until daylight, approached the van dwellers and found that Knight had not attested or presented himself for medical examination. Knight’s excuse for not joining up was that “he was no scholar and didn't know anything about it.” The police, however, saw a brother of the prisoner in the encampment who had been medically exempted. Other prisoner was Willis Brown, single, labourer of Hardwick. was apprehended by Sergeant Howland and his excuse was that, having registered, he thought he would be notified before being regarded an absentee. At the request of the military authorities, both men were remanded till the week-end.
-
Nottingham evening post Thursday 14 1917
A DERBY ROUND-UP.
VAN DWELLERS EVADING MILITARY SERVICE.
As a result of a round-up of van dwellers by military and police at Derby, three young men were brought before the magistrate’s to-day -for failing to report themselves for military service. Two of them were John and George Green, brothers, aged respectively 22 and 23. And it was stated that they belonged to a family of travelling hawkers, numerous attempts to find them had been made by the police since they were gazetted last autumn as absentees from the Army Reserve. They were discovered in a van' on the Holmes,
-
North Devon journal 14 September 1916
GIPSIES ARRESTED UNDER MILITARY SERVICE ACT.
FINED AND HANDED OVER AT BARNSTABLE.
Fined and handed over at Barnstaple. Before Messrs. F. W. Hunt and R. Clogg, County magistrates, at Barnstaple Friday, Wm. Birch and Robert Birch, gipsies, were charged under the Military Service Act with being absentees without leave. Both defendants pleaded guilty, William, however, qualifying this by saying he had previously "volunteered,"
whilst Robert (a picturesque figure wearing long whiskers)
declared that he “did not know right from wrong!” P. S. Champion, of Parracombe, spoke to receiving information that certain gipsies were encamped at Brendon, and, with Mr. H. P. Woodcock (military representative) tracing them to Northmolton, where he spoke to them at 11.30 the previous night. Defendants, asked if they had any documentary proof or papers to show why they were not serving the Army, replied" No." Robert Birch first said he was 42 years of age, and that then he did not know how old he was. His mother's age was afterwards given as forty-seven. The younger man said he volunteered at a meeting at Teignmouth about eighteen months ago; but the doctor said he was no good for the Army. Attention was called to the Army notices recently published, but each man said “I am no scholar; I cannot read." Mr. H. P. Woodcock, military representative, corroborated P S. Champion's evidence. The search was made following complaints about young men of military age loitering about Brendon Lynton Commons, and running away when people approached. The Chairman said defendants must have known that men of military age were liable for service. “We knew nothing about it," responded Robert Birch. The Chairman pointed out that each defendant could be fined up to £25. They ordered each defendant to pay the minimum fine of 40s, and that they should be handed over to the military.
-
Liverpool echo Monday 24 august 1914
CALLED HIM A GERMAN.
"Calling a man German whos not a German is one of the most serious and criminal offences at the present time," said the solicitor defending Arthur Smith, gipsy, Blackpool.
Smith was charged with splitting open the head of John Stevenson with a beer bottle after discussions on the war. He said that when called a cad he did nothing, but when called a German he struck Stevenson. Smith was sentenced to two months' hard labour, and ordered to forfeit £5 surety.
-
Rochdale observer Wednesday 4 October 1916
DID NOT KNOW THERE WAS A WAR
MILITARY SERVICE ACT ABSENTEES
Two prisoners who appeared before the Rochdale borough magistrates Monday were stated to have said,
" they did not know there was war"
The prisoners were John William Comer (31) and William Gray (31), who live in a travelling van which is now in a field off Albert Royds-street, and they were charged with being absentees under the Military Service Act. P.C. Hey visited the prisoners at their vans Saturday afternoon and asked them if they had any paper to show why they were not in the Army. Each replied “No,” and they added, the officer said, that they did not know there was a war. Both prisoners denied having made any remark about the war, and Comer said he was not hiding himself He admitted he was an absentee and had an explanation to give. When asked by the Mayor if he wished to put a question to the officer.
Gray said, "Yes, sir; he is a liar.”
Gray also admitted that he was an absentee and stated that he did not wish to say anything to the magistrates. Superintendent Marshall said prisoners were gipsies. The men made pegs and the women hawked them about the town. Each was fined 40s. to be deducted from their military pay, and handed over to a military escort which had arrived for them.
As Gray left the dock he pointed to P.C. Hey and said "That fellow is a Liar.
-
notice how the next two articles
are linked by Tunbridgewells,
Dundee evening telegraph
daily gazette for Middlesbrough
Monday Tuesday 26 27 June 1916
CRUELTY TO BEARS.
Three Serbian Gipsies Fined. The treatment of travelling bears formed the subject of a prosecution at Darlington, when two men, a boy, and a woman, said to be Serbians, were charged with ill-treating two bears and a monkey, the three males being fined 20s each, and £1 6d costs. Defendants formed a section of travelling gipsies, and they were Milan Marinicovike (37), Stevan Marinicovike (29), Stevan B. Marinicovike (16), and Yala Marinicovike (36). According to the evidence, the party consisted of seven adults and four children, who’s age ranged from 93 to 3. Mr smith stated that the defendants arrived in the town on Friday in two caravans one drawn by a small pony and a mule, the company had been traveling about the country since before the war, they call themselves Serbians but he preferred to call them foreign gipsies.mr wilks interposed to say that two of the men had fought in the previous Balkan war, and were discharged soldiers unfit for service. Inspector Cowber, secretary for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, found the woman beating the monkey with whip, the bears, he stated, were of a very exhausted condition. They had rings through their nose and lip, to which a string was attached, and in order to get them to perform on their hind legs the string was pulled, and they were prodded with a stick. It was contended by the prosecution that putting the ring through the nose and lip was cruel and caused unnecessary pain to the animals. When taken to the police station bread was given to the bears, and Inspector Cowber stated that they ate it as if they had had nothing for days. Mr Dobbing veterinary surgeon, expressed the opinion that undue pressure caused by pulling the string would cause the bears unnecessary pain and suffering, and constituted an act of cruelty. The animals were in fair condition. Milan, in his evidence, admitted that he had been fined for cruelty to a bear at
"Tunbridge Wells"
but he denied that the bear had to be destroyed. A relative had been fined at West London Police Court for cruelty to a bear Walter Pinder, who had travelled the country with six Russian bears, denied that there was any cruelty, and said in all the menageries the bears were dealt with in this way. The Bench refused application for costs against the Society in the woman's case. They also refused Mr Smith's application to have the bears confiscated, but informed the defendant that this would be done in case of a further conviction.
-
Liverpool echo 10 December 1918 "extract"
Secret Service Work.
How Enemy's Spies In England Have Been Trapped.
Between the coast and "TunbridgeWells", which was the headquarters of British army corps, a party of gipsies were continually wandering around the villages unchallenged untill an officer made an interesting discovery that these people could not converse in Romany, which is the language of the nomad. Investigation proved conclusively that by pretending to trade with the country folk and tell fortunes, information had been secured as to the movements of troops in the Southern Command. Prompt and drastic action followed these revelations
The article above is just an extract, there is much information about spying and the nervousness of these times, if anyone would like to know more I will put the full account up if you wish, you have to understand the very grave times in the early 1900s, it was a very sad and hard time, everyone was on hedge and worried, the article is a good account try and read such things to better understand the information that comes your way
-
Hull daily mail Friday 30 April 1915 "extract"
Liberating the Gipsies.
WAR SENDS THEM WANDERING.
Every war of conquest in Europe, says the New Sun, has sent on the road new tribes of gipsies. The original gipsies were, it is believed, wanderers from Central India who were driven from their home land by war and the conquerors.
In Germany, the most rigorous of Countries, she tries to keep track of all her gipsies, classing them with tramps and similar wanderers. But Germany is not unkind to those afflicted with the wanderlust.
Indeed, part of the training of a young German frequently is a year or two of wandering over the land, seeking employment and experience under varying conditions.
The result is that in many of the gipsy tribes of Europe there are found Germans of pure blood. Many a German gipsy doubtless has been learning the high- ways and byways of Europe for a purpose more ulterior than trading.
All the war offices of Europe in fact have not neglected this simplest and most thorough means of spying upon the lands of possible enemies. That the war offices do not fail to recognise the possibilities of spy service
-
Daily record Friday 9 October 1914 "extract"
ENEMY’S CODE OF SIGNS.
THE BLACK COW MYSTERY SOLVED.
A particularly ingenious example of the methods employed by German spies at the front for communicating information to their troops given in the Telegramme the Pas-de-Calais. The German Intelligence department has taken a leaf from the book of the gipsies and wandering beggars, who often have a code of signs which they write on walls and fences. A favourite sign of the German spies, who are no doubt innocent-looking peasants apparently amusing themselves with bits of chalk, is a black cow. This animal, crudely sketched in black crayon on walls and gates and fences, was frequently noticed by the French as they passed and was so badly drawn that it aroused, suspicion.
-
Hudderfield daily examiner Tuesday 9 june 1914
MR. WATT-DUTON AND THE GIPSIES.
There was no topic upon which Mr. Theodore Watts-Dunton was no more competent to speak than that of the gipsies. It was. in fact, his favourite theme, and always made it interesting. He stated that in Aylwin he had not idealised the gipsies, but that they were true to life. He went on to say that the gipsies are a very gifted people, very highly musical. They live a life that is utterly apart, a life with its own habits, its own customs, its own signs. In this connection mention was made of their ancient custom of following the “patrin.” As they walk through the woods they leave behind them a mysterious record of their passage, which only a gipsy could decipher. Every few yards they break off a twig or pull off certain leaves in a peculiar way, so that the gipsies know where a gipsy has been.
THE CHARM ROMANY CHARACTER. Mr. WATTS-Dunton said the real gipsy—the pure Romany—disliked much as he did himself the “wandering London mongrels” so often called gipsies, he agreed with Borrow that the charm of the Romany is frankness and simplicity.
-
Driffield times Saturday 13 June 1914
FAMOUS MAN OF LETTERS.
Mr. Theodore Watts Dunton, the poet, novelist, and critic, and also the freind of Swinburne, died from heart failure on Saturday evening, in his eighty second year. death took place at the house made famous as the home of Mr. Watts Dunton and Swinburne for many years, The Pines, in Putney Hill. Mr. Watts Dunton died suddenly. He went into the drawing-room fully dressed, and later was found lying dead on the couch.
Others of the famous circle of which Mr. Watts-Dunton was so distinguished member included
Rossetti, who dedicated to him his ballads and sonnets,
William Morris,
Tennyson,
George Borrow, and Charles Dickens.
-
Liverpool echo Saturday 13 June 1914
LIFE & LETTERS, The Romany Rye.
The Charm of Character.
Mr. Watts-Dunton said the real gipsy—the pure Romany—disliked much as he did himself the "wandering London mongrels" often called gipsies. He agreed with Borrow that the charm of the Romany is " frankness and simplicity " Between the Gorgios—as the gipsies call us —and the Romanies there is a dividing wall. When once this wall is broken through—and it was broken through by Groome, Borrow, and myself—the frankness begins to show itself. The real gipsies are exceedingly conscientious as regards one another.
“They believe in the Romany 'sap'—that is, the snake which bites, or, should I call it, conscience."
The deceased writer relates George Borrow —towards the end of the latter's life, Borrow had become entirely soured, and especially shunned by all literary men. With the exception of Mr. Richard Collinson. The Hake, family, and I don't believe anybody but gypsies and what are called people. Passion for North Wales. Aylwin" in manuscript, contained much more about North Wales than appears in the printed volume.
" My passion for North Wales,''
Mr. Watts-Dunton once told an interviewer, of very early date. .... Though I am familiar with the Alps and other mountain ranges, no mountain scenery has for the peculiar witchery of Snowdon, the home of the Druids, is indeed the mysterious dominant centre of " Aylwin." But the story was much too long for market purposes. Its length appalled me. And I was impelled to..Cut out some thousands of words of description and symbolical suggestions.
"This has always grieved me",
and it grieves me much more now that I know that Welsh people, who would have enjoyed those passages, have taken the book their hearts."
The article below contains much information on
THE LIFE AND LETTERS OF THEODORE WATTS-DUNTON.
If anyone would like to read it I will put the full account up, you can also access it yourself by the tittle
Aberdeen journal Monday 13 November 1916
WATTS-DUNTON. Life of a Remarkable Personality.
Published THE LIFE AND LETTERS OF THEODORE WATTS-DUNTON.
Thomas Hake and. Arthur - Riekett. London : T. C. & E. C. Jack, Ltd. 2 vols 30s net.
The life of eminent literary .
-
below is yet again disgusting words in an article,
never shy away from learning,
hard lessons are the best,
then they become easy,
Yorkshire evening post Tuesday 15 February 1916
THE MARINES TO MARRY SERBIAN GIRLS.
A Rhodes scholar, who was with the American ambulance detachment throughout the fighting in Serbia tells me (writes the London correspondent of the “Daily Dispatch") that Admiral Troubridge completely won the hearts of the Serbian—soldiers and women alike. No fewer than half a score of the admiral's merry men have resolved to make the alliance with Serbia social as well as political and military.
They are marrying attractive brides from among Serbian belles. Educated in the excellent school at Nish, some of these Serbian girls can speak four languages and are very domesticated. No greater mistake could be made than to regard the Serbs as
"mere gipsies".
They have a literature of which they are very proud, and their racial lineage is untainted.
-
Dundee evening telegraph Tuesday 16 January 1912
EXPERIENCES IN GIPSY LIFE.
"Yes, it is quite true that I am known as the gipsies' parson," said the Rev. George Hall, rector of Ruckland, to a press representative, who succeeded in unearthing him in the most inaccessible corner of Lincolnshire. " I don't minister to them; but whenever any are about this way they come to my church, and invariably hold their books upside down while otherwise endeavour to conform to the ritual of the service. “
In my early clerical days I used to delight in the visit to the fairs, horse markets, and even race-courses, where I could meet gipsies, and in that way got acquainted with the representatives of all the old Romany families, the Boswells, the Grays, the Herons, the Smiths, the Lovells, the Lees, the Locks, and Woods, so that when the Gipsy Lore Society was formed I was glad of the opportunity to specialise on the genealogy of the Romany families to be found in this country, while colleagues were devoting themselves to the customs, folk lore, and language of the nomads." The Rector of Ruckland gives his friends a good character for general honesty. "As a race," he says, "they have not been addicted to deeds of violence. Their sins are small ones—picking up a rabbit or hare, taking a potato or a turnip; that is the extent of their pilfering." The Rector believe it would-be a great misfortune if the gipsies were forced by the persecution of local bodies to settle, because when driven to town life they invariably drift into the slums and become degenerate.
-
The scotsman Monday 20 september 1915
The Gypsy 's Parson .
His Experiences and Adventures . By the Rev . George Hall , Rector of Ruckland , Lincolnshire . 10 s . 6 d . net . London : Sampson Low . Marston , & Co . The-Gipsy has become a cult of which Borrow is the honoured high priest though the more meticulous Romanists of later times are not inclined to take him as a Romany scholar at his own valuation . Links with Lavengro are numerous in this attractive and anecdotic narrative of hobnobbing with the Egyptian folk in many parts of England , and the worshippers of Borrow will, find reappearing in these pages the descendants of those personages whom the great magician has immortalised . But Mr Hall knows the Romanis perhaps more intimately than Borrow himself , and though he has not the same magic of presentation , he can make them and their ways interesting.
The Gipsies who figure in his narrative are probably truer to type than those seen through the distorting and magnifying imagination of their first great discoverer in literature . Mr Hall has gathered up much of their lore , and fixed it for future generations, to enjoy and ponder. He offers no speculations as to the origins of the mysterious race, but he chronicles the views of one of themselves on the matter .
- Alma Boswell refused to believe that the gipsies came from India . " far more likely , " said she , " we came from the land of Bethlehem . Being a rashai ( parson ) , you'll know the Bible , I suppose , from cover to cover . Well , you ' ve heard of the man called Cain . Now don ' t the old Book say that he went away and married a black-eyed camper-gal, one of our roving folks ? I reckon we sprang from them . We was the first people what the dear Lord made, and mebbe we shall be the last on earth" .
"When all the rest is wore out, there'll still be a few of our folks
travelling with tents and waggons. "
Alma classified the Gipsies as follows :
( 1 ) The . Black Romanitshels, " the real thing"
( 2 ) the Didnkais , or halfbreeds , who pronounce the Romany words
dik akai ( look here ) as did akai
( 3 ) hedge crawlers or mumpers , "There's a lot of them up London way", ' said Alma,
" We'd scorn to go near the likes of them—a tshikli / dirtv ) lot . not Gipsies at all "
My Mother would talk of certain Gipsys and true She would refer to them as Romany, you either understand what I’m telling you or you don’t, no writer that I have read, the lot of them, not a soul, evan understands the truth when it was laid bare beneath their eyes, they never felt the truth, if they did I would have felt it when I read their words, people in these times, use words like Romany, they understand words from the teaching of others , Gipsys were on the run for hundreds of years, all their descendant’s in the many generations down through the century’s no matter how much their tank was full, they were told, yes, they were told , what is what ,who is who, people can think what they will, say what they please, sure I'm an ole scrag end and nothing at all, now isn't that the truth of it
-
Dundee daily telegraph Tuesday 3 may
THE GIPSIES TRANSYLVANIA.
(From Blackwood's Magazine for May, "The gipsies" religion is of the vaguest description. Two clergymen, the one Catholic, the other Protestant, visiting a gipsy confined in prison, were both endeavouring with much eloquence to convert him to their respective Churches. The gipsy appeared to be listening to their arguments with much attention, and when both had finished speaking, he asked, of Which of the two gentlemen can give him cigar ?
One of the two being in the advantageous position of gratifying this modest desire, the scale was thereby turned in favour of the Church he recommended, and the other clergyman was sent away, doubtless with the bitter reflection that for lack of a pennyworth of tobacco be had failed to secure an immortal soul.
Middlesex chronicle Saturday 15 august 1914
GIPSY PROPHECY. ?
It is recalled at this stage of the European conflict that a long time ago a German news- gave an account of a supposed interview of the Kaiser with a gipsy, when he was a young man.
“Germany,” she told him will have Great War in 1914, “and.” added, ominously, ‘‘Germany will go when she is ruled by an Emperor who mounts his horse on the wrong side,
his Heir will perish on the scaffold.”
It is sufficient, if one be at all superstitious, that the Kaiser, owing to his lame arm, has to mount his horse on the off side.
-
Nottingham evening post Wednesday 14 June 1916
WORK-SHY & UNREGISTERED.
GRAVE CHARGES AGAINST NOTTINGHAM YOUTHS.
Two described as van-dwellers, were remanded at the Nottingham Shire Hall this morning upon charges of having obtained money by false pretences from a local engineering firm. the method adopted was to obtain a check on entering the works and then to leave at an opening where an extension is taking place. The men did no work at all, and on re-entering the works and passing through the time-office tendered the checks, each being paid according to the number of hours these had been in their possession. In the case of the first defendant, William Smith, the Deputy Chief constable said he was unattested and unregistered, and had told him he did not intend to join the army. " I think," said Mr. Harrop. " that I can find him a better situation than this." The other defendant was a youth named Ambrose Bacon, who said he was only 17, but Mr. Harrop remarked that he had been unable find his birth certificate.
He was, however, quite willing to " join the army. "
-
WESTERN TIMES MONDAY 11 SEPTEMBER1916
THE SLACKERS
Raid on a Gipsy Gamp on Exmoor on Saturday
The Press Association, telegraphing last night, says: Among the raids on Saturday night for men believed to be evading military service, was one on a gipsy camp on 'Exmoor. Two men were arrested, and subsequently fined £2 at Barnstaple and handed over to the military authorities. Many other men hiding on Exmoor evaded capture.
-
Liverpool echo 13 January 1917
GIPSIES RAIDED.
MIDNIGHT VISIT TO THE CARAVAN.
Three young men were fined and handed over to the army authorities by the St. Helens magistrate’s to-day. Inspector Anders and several constables, at 11.30 last night, raided some gipsy caravans near St. Helens Hospital They found a father and mother and one son, who said he was over the age, but did not know when or where he was born. A constable who searched another van found two young sons hiding in boxes. They were under the impression that the constable was alone, but found they were mistaken. The men had earned their livelihood for years as hawkers, but had no licence. The eldest brother was fined 50s, and the other 40s each, and they were handed over to the military.
-
Liverpool echo Friday 19 January 1917
CARAVAN SEARCHED.
GIPSY HAWKERS HANDED TO MILITARY AT ST. HELENS.
Alfred and Walter Smith, gipsy hawkers, were brought before the St. Helens magistrates today as absentees from the Army reserve and failing to register.
Inspector Anders said he and other officers raided some caravans on the waste land off Fleet-lane. Parr. In one van there was Smith's father and mother and two young women, but they denied that anyone else was inside. A search was made, and in a cupboard at the end of the van with a huge kettle in front of him was Alfred Smith, a married man, with a wife and three children. In another van, after a search, another man was found. Alfred had £41 in his possession. The men's father produced his registration card, as he was over military age, but the young men had never registered. Alfred Smith said he and his wife had three children and several horses that wanted looking after. He was a man of business. The Chief Constable. Why should you skip out of it? Both men were fined £4 and handed to the military authorities.
-
Kent and Sussex courier Friday 29 march 1918
A GIPSY ABSENTEE.
Joseph Stanley (29), a gipsy, of no fixed abode, was charged with being am absentee under the Military Service Act, at Four Elms, March, and further with failing to produce a certificate, as required, under the National Registration Act. Prisoner pleaded guilty, and P.c. Tippett stated that he searched a gipsy van at Four Elms, and found the prisoner concealed in the back. He had no papers to show why he was not in the Army, so arrested him. A fine of £2 was imposed, and he was ordered be handed over to the military.
-
Liverpool echo Saturday 26 august 1916
LIFE IN THE FIELDS.
The Oxted police have been rounding up the gipsies who have evaded the Military Service Act They raided an encampment at Limpsfield, but several men got away. Henry Collings was captured, and when he appeared before the bench he expressed his ignorance to the registration. At the same court giving the name of George Marsh, who had failed to join up under the Military Service Act. presented appearance. he had a head of long matted hair, and a beard that had never been trimmed, while his clothes were ragged and primitive. He was found in a field, and evidently had but a faint idea of the war. Expressed ignorance of registration, and stated he had lived in the fields. Defendant who was not short of money, was sent with the military to the recruiting office.
-
Coventry herald Friday 15 September 1916
GIPSY ABSENTEES.
Three gipsies of no fixed abode, Sidney Biddle. Andrew Wilson, and William Stevens, were charged with being absentees under the Military Service Act. P.c. Skidmore said he visited vans at Collycroft, where he found Biddle, who admitted that he had not a registration card, nor had he attested. Wilson and. Stevens had registered, but not attested. They were men of military age. Lieut. James pointed out that Stevens registered at Bath, but he did not notify of any change of address, whilst Biddle did not register at all. Each was fined 40ss. and handed over tho military.
-
Nottingham evening post Monday 7 august 1916
IGNORANT OF THE LAW.
NOTTINGHAM MEN'S FAILURE TO REGISTER.
The excuse that he was no scholar was offered by a vandweller, named William Wiltshire, 39, of Hawthorne-street, who was at the Nottingham Police court to-day he was charged with being drunk and disorderly and also failing to report himself under the Military Service Act. His evidence showed that prisoner was offering oilcloth for sale, and when he met with a refusal he became very abusive and used bad language. With regard to failing to report to the military authorities, Captain McGuire said that the man was one of a number of van-dwellers who had neither registered nor attested.
Prisoner, who was smilingly observed that he was quite agreeable to be a soldier, he was fined 40s, and handed over to the military authorities, the charge of drunkenness being adjourned generally. Thomas Wiltshire, another van-dweller, was also fined 4os, and handed over to the military authorities.
-
Hull daily mail Thursday 13 July 1916
WEEPING GIPSIES.
Four gipsey women broke into a paroxysm of weeping at Driffield police court on Wednesday, when two male members their camp were handed over to an escort as military absentees. The men were arrested in their camp. The younger one said he had never heard of the Military Service Art, and could not read or write.
-
Bury free press Saturday 9 September 1916
ARMY ABSENTEE AT SOHAM.
On Friday, at the Newmarket (Cambs) Police Court, Walter Winter 23 married with one child, described as a hawker, of Soham, 3, Portland Road, Oldbury, was charged with being an absentee under the Military Service Act. He said he did not think he was a deserter. he had not had any papers or anything. police-sergt. Haylock deposed that on Thursday morning he called on prisoner at Soham and asked him to produce his registration card. Prisoner said “I am writing to Birmingham for it.” Witness found that the man was a gazetted deserter, he arrested him Thursday evening. When asked if he had lived at a Caravan, 2 Fox’s Yard, Dudley, prisoner said: "No, but my brother registered me living there.” Prisoner was fined 40s. And he was handed over to a military escort.
-
Western times Wednesday 7 march 1917
GIPSY'S AGE
Holsworthy Charge of Being an Absentee Before H. Stranger (in the chair) and the Rev. T, S. Kendall Holsworthy, on Monday, Harry Sanders, a Gipsy, was charged with failing to register under the National Registration Act, and also with being a deserter from the army. P.C. Cotton stated that he questioned the defendant at Highborough Farm, sutcombe, on Sunday morning, and as the answers were not satisfactory he arrested him. In answer to the first charge defendant now said that he registered at Bideford but had lost his card. The Bench gave defendant the benefit of the doubt and dismissed the case. With regard the charge of desertion defendant said he was 43 years of age and therefore not liable for military service, Supt. Boutfield, however, pointed out that when defendant was married at Bideford in January 1899 he gave his age as 21, which would make him 39 now. There was no war in contemplation in 1899 and the superintendent suggested that the age given at the marriage was correct. In answer to the Bench, defendant said he gave his age at marriage as 21 because it was usual to put down something. He had no idea then how old he really was, but since then his father had reckoned the age of all his children and he (defendant) was 43. Supt. Boutfield suggested that as defendant had nothing to show as to registration or military service, it would be advisable to hand him over to the military. If kept defendant would make a dear soldier, because he had a wife and seven children, but if he was rejected he would have something to show in the future, Defendant was ordered to pay the costs and handed over to a military escort
-
Seven oaks chronicle and Kentish advertiser Friday 25 January 1918
CROW BOROUGH POLICE COURT
RAID ON THE GIPSY CAMP.
Five young men were brought before the Justices as the result of a raid carried out by civilian and Military police on Sunday morning. Jack Fuller. Thomas fuller. Thomas Fuller and Charlie wenman. Were charged with being absentee under the Military Service Act. 1916. Three of the prisoners pleaded guilty, but one of the two men, named Thomas Fuller, stated he was not yet 18. P.c. Savage said at four o’clock in the early morning, in company with the Military police, he visited the encampment at Crow borough, and found the four prisoners. Who had nothing to show why they were not in the Army. They were without registration cards. Thomas fuller (son of a man bearing the same name) said he was under 18, but he could not produce any evidence to prove this. The prisoners were ordered to await the arrival of a Military escort.
-
Surry mirror Tuesday 11 April 1916
GIPSY ARRESRED AT THE POLICE STATION
Richard Chapman, of no fixed abode. Gipsy, was charged with being an absentee, it being deemed that he had not enlisted under the Military Service Act, 1916. P.C. Sturt deposed that the accused called at Redhill Police Station to claim some horses that had been impounded. In reply to questions he gave the name as Richard Chapman, aged 23. And said he was not married. Asked if he was registered he first replied “Yes” and subsequently “No.” On being searched no papers were found on him. Witness arrested the man under the Military Service Act. Prisoner said he was willing to join the Army. He was fined and the money deducted from his military pay, and remanded to await an escort.
-
Middlesex chronicle Saturday 15 April 1916
Defaulters
Interesting cases at court
SERVICE DEFAULTERS INTERESTING CASES AT THE COURT.
The rounding up of defaulters under the Military Service Act within the Brentford Petty Sessional Division proceeds steadily, and Saturday there was two men before the Court- on this day—-Daniel Smith (23), whose address was given Caravan, Dockwell-lane, Hounslow,” and Robert Smith (20), of Stainforth-road, Battersea, both hawkers had been remanded from the previous Saturday for furious riding, and inquiries made during the week resulted in their being further charges as absentees.—A number of gipsies, both men and women, were in Court during the hearing of the case.—P.c. Wood stated that when he asked the men whether they had presented themselves in accordance with the public proclamation calling upon certain persons to report on March 17th, Robert- Smith said he was a married man, and that the marriage took place at the Old Battersea Church. Witness was unable, however, to find any such record there, nor any other churches in the vicinity. Daniel Smith appeared to be living with a woman who had two children, but said he had not been through the marriage ceremony. He could neither read nor write, and Robert could only write his own name. Cross examined by Mr. Wilfrid Firth, the sergeant said he did not think the men had received any notice from the military for the reason that they had not been registered, but he personally warned Daniel Smith in Staines-road about a month ago. Mr. Firth said he understood accused would be no good for the Army for medical reasons, and he suggested that they might be given an opportunity of presenting themselves for enlistment has had been done in other cases. Capt. Swinton submitted that they had already had a very good opportunity, proclamations had been posted about several works, and they had without doubt heard the subject talked freely in the streets. the Bench ordered the payment of fine of 40s. Each, and handed the men over to the military, the charge of furious riding being dismissed.
-
Sussex agricultural express Friday 31 march 1916
ABSENTEE.
On Friday, at the County Hall, Lewes, Mark Ripley, aged 24. gipsy, was charged, under the Military Service Act, with being absent without leave.—P.S. Burt said prisoner, who was arrested at Lane, Ringmer, did not give any explanation as to why had not joined the Army.—The Bench fined prisoner 40s, and decided that he should handed over to the military escort.
-
Daily mirror Friday 15 September 1916
Gipsies Arrested.
At Stoney Houghton, near Chesterfield, the police rounded up two gipsy hawkers from their caravan. Police officers noticed their arrival late at night and paid them a visit at daybreak.
-
Coventry evening telegraph Friday 27 April 1917
ARMY ABSENTEE FINED.
Emmanuel Waterfield a gipsy, was charged with being an Army absentee under the Military Service Act. Constable Malin said the youth was aged 18, and was traveling about the country. Supt. Drakeley explained that in November last the prisoner was granted exemption as an employee of the Newgate Colliery, but he had not worked there since December 8. The exemption would automatically cease eight weeks after that date and the man was therefore an absentee. Waterfield was fined £2, and ordered to be handed over to the military.
-
Birmingham mail Tuesday 26 September 1916
GIPSY ABSENTEES AGE.
BIRMINGHAM SCHOOL REGISTER EVIDENCE
The Second Court of Birmingham Police today.
William Taylor, a gipsy, was charged with being an absentee under the Military Service Act. Taylor bad been given three weeks to prove his contention that he was over military age. He had failed to produce his birth certificate, but Detective Whitty had in the meantime discovered that, according to the register at Loxton Street Council School, Taylor was now 38 years of age. The accused was fined 40s. And committed to await an escort.
-
Yorkshire post Leeds intelligencer Wednesday 19 April 1916
Scarborough yesterday.
Robert Johnson (25). Single man, described as a general dealer, was charged with being an absentee. He is a travelling hawker, and was found at East Ayton. He had not informed the registration officer at Hull of his change of address. Defendant's excuse was that he was continually travelling about the country, and had no settled address. Asked whether he had not seen the Proclamation calling up the Reserves, defendant replied "We heard about it. I understood it was for Lord Derby's men." He was fined 40s.
-
Taunton courier and western advertiser Wednesday 28 November 1917
GIPSIES AND THE ARMY.
DESERTER S FALSE REGISTRATION CARD.
WILLING TO JOIN UP.
At the Yeovil County police court Wednesday morning, before Messrs. John Vincent, William Burt, and E. B. Bellamy, James Loveridge, alias Thomas Hibbert and many other names, was charged on remand with being an absentee from the Array. The man had been captured by a smart P.C. Hillman on the previous Sunday. Supt. House said when the man was arrested on Nov. 18th he had a registration card on him in the name of Thomas Hibbert clothes peg maker, Combe St. Nicholas. He had time to investigate the matter, and he found that this Thomas Hibbert was aged 44 years, and was a deserter from the Army, having deserted at Yeovil on May 18th, 1916. He was satisfied that the prisoner in the dock was not the Thomas Hibbert wanted as a deserter; his name, as far as was known, was James Loveridge. He (the Superintendent) asked to be allowed to withdraw the charge against prisoner of being an absentee from the Army, and to charge him with being absentee under the Reserve Forces Act. Prisoner, in answer to the charge, said that his name was Thomas Hibbert, and he had never been in the Army. P.C. Hillmart repeated his evidence, and said that he was of the opinion that Loveridge, whom he had known for years, was no more than 33 years of age. He used to be clean shaven and the whiskers he had were a disguise. Supt. House said that about six o'clock on the previous evening he saw Loveridge in the cell and told him he had made enquiries respecting the registration card he had produced, and that it belonged to a young man named Thomas Hibbert, at present a deserter. Prisoner said that he had never been to Chard register and had never registered under the Act, but he was told that he could get a card if he wrote to Chard Workhouse for it. He could not read or write, but he got a letter written and sent to Chard and got the card sent on. Witness then told him that he was liable to be charged under the Defence of the Realm Act for not being registered and that he was liable to six months' imprisonment. He said that he could not produce a card, but he was fit for the Army was willing to join. Witness told him that he was known to his companions as” Jim” but he denied it, and said that his name was Thomas Hibbert. William Henry Miles, employed at the recruiting office, proved that prisoner was not the Thomas Hibbert described on the registration card. Prisoner, on oath, adhered to the statements he had made. He added that he was willing to join the Army if he was fit. —Questioned by Supt. House, said his age was 45, but he had no certificate to show. Although he was born near Rending, he did not know that his birth had been registered. Supt. House said that if prisoner was sent into the Army he should be satisfied and would not charge him under the Defence of the Realm regulations. He added that the man had given a lot trouble. He had kept away from the Army all this time, and he now asked that P.C.’s Hillman and Willment be recommended to the Army authorities for reward. Prisoner was remanded for handing over to the Army authorises. On Wednesday night Supt. House received a telegram from depot of the Devon Regiment to the effect that the man Loveridge had been traced as being a deserter from Devon Battalion stationed at Plymouth.
-
Dorking and leatherhead advertiser Saturday 12 may 1917
BEETHAM WILSON. MERSTHAM.
"Dodging Like Other People."
On Thursday evening. P.S. Butler and a number of Specials had a "night out." They were searching for men who had evaded military service, they surrounded a gipsy encampment. Sentries were posted, and the Sergeant went into the camp. The signal was given one of the women and the menfolk made a dash for liberty. Henry Smith and Henry James were captured, and when charged with being absentees under the Military Service Act. One of them replied "We have nothing to say We have never been registered or have we received any papers. We have been dodging like other people." On Friday they were brought before Alderman F. E. Barnes and Alderman T. Malcomson, Reigate County Bench, and fined 40s to be stopped out of their pay, and handed over to a military escort
-
Evening dispatch Saturday 13 January 1917
“Supposed so”
Gipsies answer when asked if they were absentees
Two gipsies who lead a nomadic existence in vans appeared before the magistrates at the Birmingham court today charged with being absentees from military service.
The defendants were Jack Davis aged 38, and James Davis aged 39, Brothers, and they were taken to Curzon Hall by the official military investigator, being subsequently handed over to detective Williamson,
When asked if he was a absentee, Jack told the magistrate that he supposed he was, but he did not know it, and James replied, “yes I suppose I am “.
Each Brother was fined 40s and ordered to await escort.
-
Middlesex chronicle Saturday 4 November 1916
Gipsy’s Welcome.
Robert Miller (37) was charged with being an absentee under the Reserve Forces Act, 1882.—Sergt. Bradshaw 28 said he saw prisoner in a caravan, and he had no papers. Miller said
“I am glad you have come.” Remanded for escort.
-
Middlesex chronicle Saturday 3 February 1917
Here was a young fellow offering himself and being sent back until a substitute was found. It was a big disgrace, and he moved that the Tribunal adjourn all the cases in the list referring to married men for one month, enable the Recruiting Officer to fetch all the single men in. Mr. Tinnelly said he was prepared to second this with the qualification that the adjournment be until the military call upon these young single slackers to come forth and do their duty, or show just cause for their exemption.
When the police came across gipsies
they took them off to the “clink”
as absentees, with handcuffs
on, yet this young man was given 48 hours’ grace to secure his skin. Naturally a father considered his son was the only man the world worth saving, and he could understand him trying to save his skin. At the same time the Tribunal was there as a Court of Justice, and it was their duty to see that men were provided, but that they were the most suitable and the least likely cause inconvenience.
-
Tamworth herald Saturday 17 February 1917
Tamworth County Police.
SATURDAY.
ABSENT FROM MILITARY SERVICE.
Before Mr. Felix Hamel and Mr. A. Sillito (chairman of Tamworth Rural District Council).
Frank Biddle, a traveller, was charged with being an absentee from military service, February 10. Defendant admitted the offence.P.c. Hulme said at 10 a.m. that day, he, with Sergt. Willis and Police-Constables Stanford and Henson, visited Salt's lane, Bassett, and there saw four gipsy vans. Searching the vans he found accused concealed under some bedding along with another man. he Pulled the bedding off accused and told him and the other man to come out. He asked accused if he had anything to show why he was not in the Army, and he said "No." Accused, in answer to a further question, said he had neither been registered nor attested. Witness added that he went along the previous afternoon and took observation, and then communicated with Inspector Hall, who sent over the other officers to assist him. John Smith, another young traveller, was charged with a similar offence, which he admitted.—P.C Hulme said accused was concealed with Biddle under the same bedding. Henry Biddle, another traveller, was similarly charged, and he admitted the offence.— Inspector Hall said accused stated that he was a registered man, and he produced a medical certificate, given by a doctor at Earl Shilton, Hinckley, on January 17. The certificate was to the effect that Henry Biddle was unable to follow his employment owing to heart disease. That was not sufficient excuse, because accused should have pre' himself for examination by a Medical Board.—P.s. Willis deposed to the arrest of accused. The three men were remanded in custody to await military escort. Mr. Hamel, on behalf of the Bench, said P.c.Hulme recognised the possibility of taking the three men, and proceeded with great energy and success. His energy and foresight had resulted in adding three valuable men to the Army.The magistrates rewarded P.c. Hulme.
-
Seven oaks chronicle and Kentish advertiser Friday 29 march 1918
GIPSY ABSENTEE.
Joseph Stanley (29), gipsy, of no fixed abode, was charged with being an absentee under the Military service Act, Four Elms, Edenbridge. on the 23rd March, and further with failing to produce a certificate, as required, under the National Registration Act. Prisoner pleaded guilty, and P.C. Tippett stated that he searched the gipsy van at Four Elms, and found the prisoner concealed in the back, he had no papers to show why he was not in the Army, so arrested him. A fine of £2 was imposed, and was handed over to the military.
-
Yorkshire evening post Thursday 20 December 1917
GIPSY WITH ANOTHER MAN'S DISCHARGE PAPERS. SEQUEL AT LEEDS
Before Mr. Horace Marshall, Stipendiary Magistrate, Leeds, to-day, Joseph calladine(26). And John Bowman (24), both living in a caravan at Brayshaw's Yard, Gelderd Rd., were charged with obtaining, by trick, 27s. From Mrs. Nellie Foster, Walton Crescent, and 31s from Mrs Taylor, Accommodation Road. He was further charged with falsely representing himself as Arthur David Tansley. a discharged soldier, late of the Hon. Artillery Company. It was alleged that the defendants had sold pieces of oilcloth representing them to nine yards long, whereas they were found to be about half that site. Mr. Wiiley, who defended, contended that the defendants represented that they referred to square yards, and that there had been no misrepresentation, for they said given oilcloth excess. The charges were dismissed.
In connection with the other charge against Calladine it was stated that when asked by Detective-Sergeant Bagley why he was not in the army, he produced army certificates and discharge papers belonging to Mr. Arthur D. Tansley. Vernon road, Leeds. Mr. Tansley said certificates (produced) were his; he had lost them about month ago. Mr. Willey said, calladine was a gipsy, and travelled about the country. He was of military age, and it would be better to order him to await escort as an absentee, rather than send him to prison at the country's expense. The defendant was dealt with under the Probation Offenders Act, and both he and Bowman were orderd to await escort as absentees, fines of 40s being imposed in each case.
-
Seven oaks chronicle and Kentish advertiser Friday 21 September 1917
CRANBRQOK POLICE COURT.
A GIPSY ABSENTEE
SATUBDAY.-Before Mr W. R. Nash. Edward Matthews’s gipsy, of no fixed abode, was charged with failing to report for service on Thursday. Evidence was given, W. Quick, a gamekeeper, of Copdon Oak. Cranbrook, who secured the prisoner. Who had concealed himself in the wood, and P.C. Brennan, who proved the case, prisoner was ordered to await escort.
-
Sussex agricultural express Friday august 31 1917
" NOTHING TO FIGHT FOR”.
BARCOMBE GIPSY'S PLEA
The plead that he had nothing to fight for was made by a gipsy when he was arrested at Barcombe as an absentee under the Military Service - Act. This observation was reported to Dr. W. F. Crosskev (in the chair) and the Mayor (Councillor A. E. Itugg), at the County Hall. Lewes, on Monday, when Thomas Fuller and Harry Wells, two gipsies, were charged with being absentees under the Military Service Act. When a question was put with reference to the ages of prisoners,
Fuller replied "I hardly know my age. I reckon I am about 41” P.S. Goodsell deposed that about 5 a.m. on the previous day, in company with P.c. Willand, he went to a gipsy encampment at Barcombe, where he saw prisoners. He said to Fuller "Can you tell me your age?" He replied "I was about 42 two months ago, or something like that." Witness said "Have you got any documents or anything to prove your age, Or any reason why you are not in the Army?" He replied "No." Witness then said' "I suspect you of being younger and of military age. I shall arrest you and take you to Lewes." The Acting Magistrates' Clerk Mr. D. West)—He did not Produce any exemption? Witness- Nothing whatever. He had got no papers.
In answer to questions, witness added
Wells, “I am about 30 years of age and have never been to the recruiting office, I have got nothing to fight for." Witness said, have you got any documents or papers about you. Wells replied "Nothing at all” clerk—Are you of the opinion that fuller is under 41 years of age? Witness—my opinion is that he is about 35 years old. Chairman informed prisoners that they must produce any evidence as to their age to submit to the authorities. Fuller” l have not got any”. The Bench decided that prisoners should be handed over to the military authorities, each should fined 2 pound which was deducted from their pay.
-
Coventry evening standard Friday 20 April 1917
COUNTY POLICE COURTS
Miscellaneous cases
Mary smith of no fixed abode was charged with sleeping out in the fosse road, Wolvey, on the 10 of April .The defendant on promising to go to her home in Derbyshire was discharged.
The last defendant’s brother George smith was also charged with sleeping out, on his promise to join the army he was discharged. The superintendent said the lad appeared to be of military age, but he said he was not eighteen. He had no proof of his age, and said he was willing to join the army.
-
Framingham weekly news Saturday 7 April
Two gipsies who produced birth certificates purporting to show that one was sixteen years old, the other seventeen, but who looked much older, were at Enfield handed over to the Army as absentees.
-
Daily gazette for Middlesbrough Tuesday 13 June 1916
GIPSIES EVADE SENVICE.
When a woman gipsy caravan dweller, of Tottenham, was summoned at Enfield police court for aiding in the concealment of her son, who had failed to report for military service, it was stated by the police that they had had considerable difficulty in getting male gipsies of military age belonging to the Tottenham colony. The men frequently produced registration -cards which were not of their own, and even marriage certificates belonging to others. Defendant’s son. who was unmarried, had never been registered. When they found him in the caravan he ran away and was only captured after a long chase! The defendant was fined £2. The money was paid
-
Lancashire evening post Wednesday 29 august 1917
BLACKPOOL ABSENTEE
PURCHASED DISCHARGE PAPER
FROM BARROW YOUTH
Thomas Smith (18), hawker, of Blackpool, was fined at Barrow to-day, for being an absentee under the Military Service Act and was handed over to the military. When arrested in a van at Barrow, on Monday night, Smith had in his possession a discharge paper in the name of Kendall. Inquiries showed that he purchased this from George Edward Kendall, of Barrow, for 4s. Kendall had received it from the Army authorities when he was discharged owing to his youth. Kendall was charged with selling this paper to Smith, and the magistrates fined him 40s.
-
Luton news and Bedfordshire chronicle Thursday 29 march 1917
Scuffling noises near a gipsy caravan attracted the attention of constable, P.c. Lilley, while cycling along the Luton-road on Thursday morning. He asked who was in the van, when a gipsy replied. “Only the old woman." But on the floor only partly covered up, was the gipsy's son, John Oliver, who first gave his age as 18 then 19, and afterwards 20. Charged under the Military Service Act at St, Albane the same day, he was ordered to handed over to the military authorities.
-
Cambridge daily news Friday 23 march 1917
Five sturdily-built gipsies, aged from 18 to 30, "rounded up” by the Nottingham police, were yesterday fined as absentees and handed over to the military.
Nottingham evening post Thursday 22 march 1917
VAN-DWELLERS WHO DODGE THE ARMY.
FIVE £3 FINES IN NOTTINGHAM.
At the Nottingham guilhall to-day no fewer than five van-dwellere came before the magistrates charged with failing to report under the Military Service Act. They were James Wesseldine, 23, horse dealer, Sonnie Brinkley. 30, horse dealer, John Wesseldine, 28, hawker, Adolphus Brinkley, 29, hawker, and John Squires. 16, hawker. Major McGuire , the chief recruiting officer for the city, explained the difficulty in tracing absentees who travelled about the country in caravans, and pressed for heavy penalties. In some cases the men had not even registered. The magistrate fined each of the defendants £3, and ordered them to be handed over to the military authorities.
-
Nottingham evening post 11 April 1916
DID NOT WANT TO INLIST.
UNATTESTED MEN ARRESTED AT GRANTHAM.
At Grantham to-day, Timothy Price, 25, and Frederick. Price, 23, hawkers, of the Blue Ram yard, Grantham, unattested men, were charged under the Military Service Act with being absentees from the Army Reserve by not joining when called up by the Royal Proclamation. P.c. Leeson proved the arrest, and Timothy said he came up once in February. He called at the Town Hall to see the doctor, but there was not one there. They told him that they would let him know more about it, but they never did. The reason he did not go up was because he could neither read nor write. The Chief Constable said prisoners were travelling showmen, and lived in vans. He got to know they were in the Blue Ram yard, and he sent down to them a week ago. He then found that prisoners had not had their addresses transferred, for while they were liable for a penalty. That was the reason why the military authorities had not been able to get them before. Mrs. Price, the mother, said neither she nor her boys were scholars. She was a widow with a large family, and her sons had been working for her. Colonel A. Hutchinson (the magistrate): Both of them are willing to join, I take it? Mrs. Price: “No.'' They don't want join. Colonel Hutchinson: But Timothy went to join. Timothy “I went to see the doctor to try and get off.” Prisoners were handed over to the Military authorities, and later in the day went to Lincoln with a number of Derby recruits.
-
Nottingham evening post Saturday 17 march 1917
DESERTER’S STRANGE HIDING PLACE.
CARLTON POLICE RAID ON CARAVAN.
Charged at the Nottingham Shire Hall to-day with concealing a deserter, a travelling gipsy, named Angelina Bosworth, 29. was to sent to gaol for six weeks’ hard labour. Inspector Harrop stated he saw the woman at Carlton where she had a van. Asked if John Henry Watts, a soldier, was there, she answered “No,” but a search of the van resulted in the man being found under a Sock bed in a cupboard. He admitted being a deserter, and having been absent from the army since last April. Defendant said she did not know Watts Was a deserter, for he told her he was discharged from the army. She denied having placed the bed on the man, and declared that he put it in position himself.
Lancashire Evening post Wednesday 14 March 1917
For concealing a deserter who, she said. had promised to marry her. a young gipsy widow was sentenced in Nottingham to 6 weeks’ imprisonment
-
Daily record Thursday 16 December 1916
Liverpool echo Tuesday 27 august 1918
A gipsy, named Nathan Green, passed Grade 1, when called up, presented himself at the barracks doubled up and hobbling on two sticks. Several medicals subjected him to severe examination and pronounced him fit, but the man could not be straightened. Specialists were called in, and the man underwent electric shocks varying in degree, but never once flinching In all twelve doctors declared the man fit for service. He was thereupon ordered the usual course of training, but he absolutely refused to stand up. Saturday he was placed in the draft for Ireland, but owing to his still doubled-up state he rode to the station while his comrades walked.
-
Buckingham advertiser and free press Saturday 29 September
STRATFORD PETTY SESSIONS.
Thursday. Sept. Before Colonel W. J. Leri (Chairman). Sir Herbert S. Leou. T. Q. Kirby. Esq., and S. F. .lone. Eaq.
John Green, alias Jack Fletcher, gipsy, who was arrested under the Military Service Act by Special Constable P. C. E. Lovett on the 11 inst.. and who had previously been remanded for inquiries to be made, was found to have deserted from the depot of the Bedford regiment on August 6th. The first charge of failing to report for service with the Colours and was therefore amended, and it being proved that he was a deserter, he was handed over to the military escort which was waiting at the Police Station.
-
Hull daily mail Saturday 7 February 1918
EPWORTH PETTY SESSIONS.
THURSDAY.—Before Aid. J Stephenson, Aid. Messrs Archer, Fox, Gilding, Smales. and W. Light
WILLING TO GO.—Zachariah Smith, a hawker, of Luddington, was charged with being an absentee under the Military Service Act. Defendant said he did not think he was 18, but he was willing to go.
-
Surry advertiser Saturday 22 April 1916
At Police Court Thursday. before Mr. C. Willock Pollen and Mr. E. H. Burgdss. two gipsies named Nelson Smith and Walter Smith were charged with being absentees under the Military Service Act. P.C’. Butler proved the case, and they were each fined 40s. and handed over to a military escort.
-
Manchester evening news Wednesday 13 september 1916
GIPSY HIDING A TREE.
The Cheshire County police are rounding up the gipsies eligible for military service in their area, and to-day, at the Stockport County Police Court, there was an exciting chase across country by his men described by P.C. Cunliffe. 8 p.m. last night Cunliffe and Constable Gregory went to the vans in Bramhall Moor Lane, and on seeing them one man bolted. They chased him for about two miles across the fields, and eventually they found him hiding in an oak tree. They returned to the vans and discovered another man between a mattress and a bed in one of the vans. The prisoners were fined 40s. each and ordered to be handed over to the military authorities. Gilroy Finney was also fined 10s. or seven days for failing to register.
-
Sunderland daily Echo and Shipping Gazette
Monday 5 august 1918
When Tom Jones 46. a gipsy living in a hut on the top of a mountain,
was charged at Newport Mon with not registering and with being an absentee,
he said he knew nothing of the Registration Act and that he was of military age.
-
Yorkshire evening post 25 may 1916
GIPSIES ARRESTED AS ABSENTEES.
At Snaith to-day, Phoenix Smith (23), and George Smith (23), two members of a gipsy tribe who camp at the Goole district, were charged with being absentees from the Army under the Military Service Act. It was stated that the men had not registered or attested, and were simply travelling about the district with every intention to evade service. Both remanded to await military escort.
-
Northampton mercury Friday 15 September 1916
A WARNING TO FARMERS.
GIPSIES AND THE MILITARY SERVICE ACT.
The danger of employing gipsies without making quite certain they are not liable for military service was shown when came before the Daventry Divisional Magistrates on Tuesday before Sir V Knightley, Bart, (chairman). and Mr. C. J. W. liodhouse. William Batchelor, Canons Ashby, was summoned for unlawfully employing Nathan Smith, Henry Bale, and Nathan Smith, jun., being men belonging to the Army within the Reserve Forces Act, 1882, part 111, section 17, and the Military Service Act, 1916, at Canons Ashby Aug 12, 1916. P.C. Barrel said that on Aug. 21,the defendant, admitted he had employed the three gipsies in question. He said they told him they had been medically rejected, and he did not ask see their rejection cards. Batchelor never thought of asking for the cards. They had told him they were rejected, they where arrested and sent to Northampton. Fined 40s. and costs.
-
Evening dispatch Thursday 26 September 1918
VAN DWELLER ABSENTEE.
SEQUEL TO ASSAULT CASE SMETHWICK
Birmingham van dweller named Sidney Smith, who was before the Smethwick magistrates Monday for assaulting a constable, was again before the Bench to-day charged under the Military Service Act with being an absentee. Lieutenant Matins gave evidence to show that Smith lived in a traveling van in Milk-street. Birmingham. He. should have responded in March. 1916. defendent, who recently came from Ireland, said he had no call-up. he also said he had three brothers in the Army. The Clerk said that fact did not discharge the prisoner’s liability to serve. The magistrates imposed a fine of £2 and ordered Smith to be handed over to the military.
-
Hull Daily mail Tuesday 6 June 1916
Gipsies Conscripts
James Pearce 30 and Robert Smith 28, Gipsies were charged at Stratford as absentees under the Military Service Act.The accused. It appeared live in a caravan, and when at South Mimms the Police were in search of Gipsies who had absented themselves from Army service. Several were arrested, but the prisoners absconded, leaving their Women folk in their vans. On Saturday Sergeant Shepherd heard of their arrival at Higham Hill Walthamstow. And under the pretext of examining their registration cards, got into conversation with the Gipsies, and the prisoners were ultimately arrested. A fine of 40s was imposed in each case. And the prisoners were handed over to the Military.
-
Lancashire Evening Post Monday 27 November 1916
Gipsy Mother
Fined for concealing Absentee
Elizabeth Smith a Gipsy was summoned at Blackpool, this morning, for concealing a deserter. Detective Seed said that on the 18th inst in consequence of defendants son being a deserter from the R.F.A. he visited her and inquired for her son. She said she had not seen him since he left the Army. Her daughters and two sons denied he was in the house, but when witness made a search he found the man crouched in the corner in the pantry.
Answering Mr. R.W. Robinson, who defended, witness said that when he found the deserter in the pantry the defendant expressed surprise at him being in the house. Detective Ashcroft said that when detective seed knocked at the front door he thought the deserter past the window on the way to the pantry. Defendant was in the kitchen at the time and when the deserter came out he had to find his cap in the kitchen. Defendant said she went to Preston on the morning in question, and when she returned she did not know he was in the house. She had not seen him since he was in hospital at Preston in September.
A fine of 40s was imposed
-
Hull daily mail Tuesday 3 October 1916
Two gipsy absentees arrested by the police yesterday informed the local magistrates that they did not know a war was on. they were fined 40s and handed over to the escort
-
Birmingham mail Saturday 12 august 1916
GIPSY ABSENTEES ARRESTED.
Six men described as of the gipsy class were before the magistrates in the First Court of Birmingham Police this morning, charged with being absentees under the Military Service Act. Their names were; Henry Cheesman 21. Thomas Woodward 2O. Walter Henry Grant 21. Arthur Lowe 27, Wm. Todd 21, and George David Moore 25. Detective Draisey spoke to paying of two visits to caravans inhabited by gipsies on land in Garrison Street, in company with Detective Elderion. Last night they arrested the two first-named prisoners who were hiding in a stable at the rear of the caravans. Cheesman said he had tried join the Army Veterinary Corpe, but had been told it was full up. The other four prisoners were arrested from the same caravans early this morning. All the men were remanded in custody till Wednesday, for the military authorities to be communicated with.
-
Hull Daily Mail Friday 29 June 1917
The Gipsy Absentees
Bridlington Constable Commended
From our own Correspondent
Three Gipsies were brought before the Bridlington Bench on Wednesday charged with being absent without leave from a Military Camp. Their names were Albert Edward Smith 35 Jonas Smith 36 and Gilroy Smith 28. P.C. Elvidge, of Wold Newton, told of a thrilling story of the arrest. He was in search of the Gipsy soldiers early on Tuesday morning, and came across their van near Rulston Grange .He was accompanied by an Inspector of the R.S.P.A, who assisted in heading of the men through a wood. Witness gave chase, and by good luck came across the men before they could get clear of the fence. He took them back to the van. They were Albert Edward and Jonas and both were in private cloths. At his suggestion Jonas donned his uniform. Albert Edward could not find his. The Police Officer searched in vain for Gilroy from 9.a.m. until 6.p.m. but discovered a Soldiers uniform in the van. He spoke to the mans wife, asking what she had to say about the uniform, and she admitted it belonged to her husband Gilroy Smith. The Officer then arrested her and was conveying her and the other two prisoners to Bridlington when Gilroy, who was in hiding, came out of a corn field and surrended. He changed his clothing for the uniform by the roadside, and the Police Officer thereupon exchanged him for his wife. The prisoners were handed over to the Military escort. And the Bench awarded the Constable Elvidge 7s.6d, in each case and commended him very highly on his courageous perseverance.
-
Belper News Friday 5 January 1917
Good Morning Mother
A young hawker. Named Harry Lee was charged at Chesterfield borough Police Court, with being an Absentee under the Reserve Act.
P.C. Barlow said he was in the Rodney Ground when he saw the Prisoner under a tent. On being challenged as to why he was not in the Army. Prisoner replied that he was only sixteen and a half years of age. He was unable to produce a certificate and admitted that he had not attested. Witness had known the Prisoner for several years and there was no difference in his appearance.
The Chairman. Mr. Theo. Pearson. He looks an old fashioned customer for 17.The Chief Constable, yes, his beard has developed nicely whilst he as been in custody. The Chairman intimated that Lee would be handed over to an escort, whereupon prisoner asked who was going to look after is Mother and two Sisters.
The Chairman said they would be taken care of.
Prisoner then called out to a Woman in the body of the court.
"Good Morning Mother"
and She replied ..........."Good Morning Lad"
-
Western times Saturday 29 july 1916
At Honiton Police Court a gipsy named Ambrose Smith was charged with being an Absentee from his Majesty's Reserve.—P.C. Bawden arrested Smith during the Fair.— he was handed over to a military escort.
-
Surry mirror April 10 1917
The gipsy nuisance.
The Sanitary Inspector reported that during the past four weeks a large amount of time had been taken up in turning gipsies off the roadside in various parts of the district, and he would be glad of a little more assistance from the police. With regard to the former complaint it was stated that the police had replied that the person who made the complaint was a special constable, and he should take the matter up in his own hand. The Chairman and other members dissented from this view. The statement was made that some of these men were able-bodied and of military age. and it was the duty of the police to take action in the matter. Mr. Bennett said in fairness to the police it should be stated that the special constables had been called out at Merstham, and for three hours raided the vans and searched the wood, but found no men of military age. The Sanitary Inspector said he had seen able-bodied men several times at Ricketts Wood. It was resolved to write to the police and ask them to take further action in the matter.
-
16 January 1917 surrey mirror
Supposed Deserters.
Frank Smith and John King, two rough looking young men, were charged on suspicion of being deserters from the Army. -Smith pleaded guilty, and King not guilty.—P.S. Boshier deposed that at 11 a.m. on January 13th he went with P.C. Forehead to Broomlands Farm. Limpsfield, where he saw a number of field workers and gipsies. He questioned the man Smith, who gave the name of "George Mills," and asked why he was not in the Army. He produced a registration card and classification certificate in that name, which, showed that he was totally unfit for service. He found, however, that the man had been recently vaccinated, and told him he disbelieved his statement, and that he should arrest him on suspicion of being a deserter. Smith then said his real name was Frank Smith, and that he was a rifleman of the Kings Royal Rifles, and had deserted at Sheerness about two months ago. The other man gave the name "John King," and produced a similar classification form to the effect that he to was medically unfit for service. Witness said he did not believe him, and that he had reason to think the certificate did not belong to him. King then said that it belonged to his stepbrother, who was doing time," and that his own name was Charles Nye," that he belonged to the King’s Royal Rifles and deserted at Sheerness. Witness searched the records and failed to find any statement corresponding to their description of deserters during the past year.—Supt. West applied for a remand for a week for enquiries to be made of the military authorities, and this was granted, the defendants being kept in custody.
-
Hull Daily mail Tuesday 23may 1916
This Morning at Goole
Riley Smith, who was described as a gipsy, was charged with failing to produce a National Registration card when requested. P.C. tordoff stated that, on Saturday at a gipsy camp in Old Goole, where he saw prisoner and he asked him to produce his registration card. He said he had not got one, and had not been registered. Prisoner admitted the offence. In answer to the magistrates Supt. Horton said the man was a gipsy. Prisoner: You can call me a traveller, but not a gipsy, because ain't one.
The Chairman Mr A. Blyth " Oh, very well, a commercial traveller"
Prisoner " Yes. sir; that's it".
He added that the obtaining of a registration card was a job he knew nothing about. It was stated that the man gave his age as 47. but on an official from the recruiting office said they were not quite clear that this was his correct age. Prisoner assured them that it was, and said he would produce a certificate. The Chairman pointed out to the prisoner that the offence was a serious one. but As that was the first case of its kind to come before them the prisoner would be fined £1 or in default. 14 days.
-
Sussex Agricultural Express Friday 14 June 1918 extract
Cases Dismissed
At Battle Petty Sessions
Mr C.J.Ebden.Colonel Papillon.
Tom Lee, on remand was charged with stealing a bag containing 72 small rabbit nets, one long drift net two pairs of men's boots and other property of George Dengate of Westfield. Tom Lee lived in a Caravan on a encampment at Boldslow nearly three miles from Dengate cottage.
The Bench Dismissed the Case
Prisoner was further charged with being an Absentee under the Military service act. Prisoner said he was quite willing to go and do is bit for the Army.
Remanded until the next day.
-
Lancashire Evening Post Wednesday 29 November 1916
GIPSY AS A DESERTER.
To-day,at Preston. Theophilus Young a gipsy, was charged with being a deserter under the Military Service Act. The evidence showed that last night W.O. Wilson arrested Young as the latter was partaking in a pint of beer in a Preston public-house. At the police station Young admitted that he had not registered. He was a van dweller, who moved from yard to yard and town to town.—Prisoner said he had been ill with rheumatism for three months.—The Bench imposed a fine of 40s., and ordered prisoner to be handed over to the military authorities.
-
Yorkshire Evening Post Thursday 5 September 1918
V.C.'S BROTHER ABSENTEE.
Hull, to-day, Thos. Cunningham, general dealer, brother of "Private Jack Cunningham", V.C., of the East Yorkshire Regt., was handed over to the military as an Absentee. He was arrested in a public house. Thomas had been called up, but was given day's leave in order to see his brother, the V.C., who was wounded recently, and is in Hull.
-
Daily Gazette for Middlesbrough Tuesday 17 April 1917
ABSENTEE IN A CUPBOARD
Daniel Cunningham 18 Hawker, of Hull, was at Epworth charged with being an Absentee under the Military Service Act. Police Constable Hallam said he visited some vans in Owston Ferry on Saturday, and in James Cunningham's van he found prisoner fastened in a cupboard under a bed. He made him come out, and asked him did he have any reason for not being in the Army. He replied that he had not. Prisoner admitted he would be 19 in July next, and was remanded to await a Military Escort.
-
The Brecon Radnor Express Carmarthen and Swansea Valley Gazzette
and Brynmawr District Advertiser
11 January 1917
Gipsy Round Up.
POLICE CHASE ON LLANGATTOCK MOUNTAIN.
MILITARY ABSENTEES.
At the Crickhowell police court, before Mr A. Beckwith and Mr E. Pirie-Gordon,
Evergreen Herne(27),
Edward Herne (22),
Albert Ryles (23),
Magor Herne (24),
George Herne (30)
and John Herne (36), gipsies, were charged, under the Military Service Acts, with being absentees and failing to report themselves. The court was filled with members of the gipsy tribe, the "fair sex" predominating, and there were animated .scenes. P.c. Hy. Jones (Llangynidr) said he was one of a party of policemen who raided a gipsy encampment in a lonely spot on the Llangattock mountain on Saturday, and, after a sharp and stern chase, captured four of the defendants. P.c. Morgan Lewis (Crickhowell) said he found Geo. Herne in a tent on the mountain nursing a baby. He gave his age as 40. Sergt. Edwards (Crickhowell) said John Herne was observed walking across the mountain. The police opened out and, after a run, he was apprehended. Three of the defendants, George, Evergreen and Magor Hearne, produced their registration cards, and the other man, despite the statement of Sergt. G. S. Duffy, of Brecon, that they were not believed to have been registered, stoutly maintained that they were registered with their relatives at Llantrisant. Mr Beckwjth (to defendants): You offer no reason why you should not be drafted into the Army forthwith? Defendants (in chorus): Quite right. Mr Beckwith: You will be handed over to the military authorities and fined 40s each. The magistrate added that they had candidly admitted that they had failed to comply with the law.
-
Sue of Romany Genes Web Site, once told me of a Friend of Hers who wrote of, and was intern a descendant of the Herne's, I never truly gave it much thought only that Sue said the Herne's was one of the Original Romany Family's, I was never taken in from all that as been wrote from those "so called scholar's" of the past, but I will just put on these posts of the Herne's to show you no matter what those scholars wrote , Gipsies are Gipsies, some more rip roaring than others, but what binds them all is the fact they are Gipsies, not a figment of someone's imagination, a contrived and manufactured unreality, all Gipsys are Gipsys, evan a Gipsy knows that, I just thought it would be good to show some respect to the Herne's, Lee, once said that nearly all of the Gipsy Family from up the north way Came out of the Herons, the Herons and Dark Young's are supposed to be of the Herne's, all them old scholar's, all they wrote about was this and that, they should of wrote about, that and this, Elik telled me of some old wealthy Romany up is way, Dark and old they was, but his words were sad words,
"michael.,"... He said
"They denigh now all knowledge and would not even talk or acknowledge the fact that were of the Gipsys, these things sadden me."
Evening Express and Evening Mail Extras Special Edition 15 of April 1909
Four Prisoners Remanded at Llandaff
Three brothers of the roving gipsy type-named Benjamin Herne, George Herne, and Albert Herne, together with Harry Ryle's, another memberof the gipsy community, were brought up before MT.E. W. M. Corbett, one of the Llandaff magistrates, this morning charged with assaulting' the police in the execution of their duty. Charles Harrison, of Maindy, described the incidents which led up to the fracas in which Police-constable Thomas, a fellow-officer, was so seriously injured. that he was unable to appear. At 12.30 on Wednesday morning the constable stated that they found eight gipsies' horses straying about Heathier road. and drove them in the direction of Llandaff, with the intention of impounding them. When they got to the Cross Inn seven more gipsies came rushing after them with sticks, and started beating them away from the Horses. They succeeded in driving the horses away, and then ran away as fast as they could. Thomas and himself followed them up and on getting near their encampment on Whitchurch-road, the gipsie again sprang upon them, striking out in all directions with their sticks. The eldest prisoner Ryle's struck witness across the shoulders with his stick, and the other prisoners joined in the attack upon witness. and Thomas. Their helmets were lost in the melee. Inspector Rees asked for a remand, and said that Police-constable Thomas had been kicked so badly that he was laid up in bed.Ryles asked for bail, but Mr. Corbett would not hear of this, and prisoners were remanded in custody until the weekly court at Llandaff on Monday.
The Cardiff Times and South Wales Weekly News Saturday April 24 1909
GIPSIES AND POLICE
Caleb Herne and John Herne, father and son, gipsies, were arrested at Allensbank-road, Upanishad, on Tuesday by P.C. Boothby on a charge of assaulting P-C-s Thomas and Harrison. Four other gipsies were brought before the Llandaff magistrates on Monday and remanded on the same charge. The two Herne's were on Tuesday afternoon taken before an occasional Court of the Llandaff Bench held at Cardiff, Mr Edwin Corbett presiding, and were remanded till Monday next, when they will be brought up with the other gipsies. When charged with the offence, Caleb Herne said he was in his tent that night, and had nothing to do with taking the horses from the two policemen. He never touched the police men, but he told them he would do so if they struck him. John Herne said, I was there, but never done nothing. P.S. Bennett stated that prisoners had been identified by P.C. Harrison as taking part in the assault upon him and P.C. Thomas. Prisoners were remanded until Monday next.
-
Hull daily mail Monday 16 september1918
BEFORE HULL BENCH TO-DAY.
A Gipsy and the Army.
Mr J. Watson (chairman) and Mr J. P. Elvin heard the cases.
Jack Smith, a young gipsy, was charged with failing to join the Army. —Lieut. W. H. Griffith (National Service Ministry) prosecuted.—Smith said he was not old enough. He was 18 in March, but was willing to go. He had sent for his birth certificate, but it had not come.—An officer said he was in Canning-street, where he saw prisoner, and told him he was suspected of being a deserter from the Army. He replied: "I have never been in the Army," but he had nothing show why he should not be in the Army.—Lieut. Griffiths said Smith was brought to the City Hall, and told him he was under 18. Lieut. Griffiths told him that they did not want to recruit him if he were not liable, but certainly he looked over 18. He gave him the opportunity to get a birth certificate. He believed he was a travelling hawker. The officer added that prisoner's wife said he was Pte. George Smith, of the South Staffordshire Regiment.—Prisoner: That is my cousin.—Prisoner was handed to the authorities.
-
Northampton mercury Friday 25 August 1916
ROUNDING UP.
POLICE VISIT GIPSY CAMP AT CANONS ASHBY.
A police raid on a gipsy encampment at Canons Ashby was described at the special Sessions held at Daventry on Saturday, when, before Mr. H. VV. White and Mr. Edgar (Mayor of Daventry), Nathan Smith (28), Nathan Smith (34), and Henry Bates, gipsies, were charged with being absentees under the Military Service Act. Inspector Bailey said that accompanied by P.S. Woodruff and a number of constables he visited a field at Canon's Ashby on Friday and found nine caravans. When he approached two of the prisoners ran away, but being surrounded came back. Bates told witness he was 45, but he had no birth certificate, and in witness's opinion he was not 40 years of age. He said he had not enrolled, and gave no reasonable explanation for not having reported under the Military Service Act. but he was wounded in the South African War. He had no registration card. One of the Smiths said he was 28 and married. He had not enrolled or registered himself for service. The other Smith who was arrested later, said he was 34 and had been rejected under the Derby scheme at Gloucester. He had had a card, but it was worn away. He had not presented himself for examination. He had a registration card, on which his age was given as 39, but he said that was wrong. He stated he was subject to fits. The Smiths are cousins Each of the prisoners was fined £2 and handed over to an escort.
-
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi80azXo4DOAhVIahoKHQC8CkoQFggjMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftravellerstimes.org.uk%2FNews%2FElic-Kennedy.aspx&usg=AFQjCNEKjRSevjvpESSnpu4TKiuvwqaHPw
you may think who his he talking about when I talk about Elik, well this is Elik, read about his life and see him on video,
I never new Elik but we would sometimes write to each other, I will write more of Your words another time,
He was very kind
sleep well Elik, Lee would call You Uncle when He wrote those letters on the computer web sites, yes I think how Lee spoke of You is the best for others to learn of You.
Sovally
-
Birmingham daily post Saturday 14 October 1916
GIPSIES’ EFFORTS TO ESCAPE SERVICE
Three gipsies who were stated to have evaded Military service were charged at Sheffield, yesterday, as absentees. The military stated that they had great difficulty in tracking the men, who were van-dwellers, and on account of their peripatetic habits, but they were traced to Darnall this week.The police found them in a public house, and as soon as the prisoners noticed the officers, they created a disturbance. In the midst , one of them put the room in darkness, smashing all the lights. There was a scuffle, but the police guarded the exits and secured their men. One man, who said he had been rejected, was handed over to the military,
Sheffield independent 14 October 1916
GIPSIES’ OFFENCE.
MEN WANTED BY MILITARY
Lively scenes in a Darnall hotel when the police were arresting three gipsies for not complying with the Military Service Act at the Sheffield Court yesterday. The men are van-dwellers staying on land in Darnall. Serge. Milner said that he went into the Duke of York Hotel to arrest the men, and as soon as he had announced his errand one of them. Charles lister, lifted his stick and said “Then here the ……goes.” He struck at the lighted chandelier, shattering a lamp and scattering pieces about the room The three, Charles Lister, and Harry Lister ,Henry Wiltshire (29). who said, he was crippled in one arm, and when he tried to enlist in July was told that the Army did not want cripples. they were handed over to the military authorities.
February 3 1906 Nottingham Evening Post
THIS DAY'S POLICE NEWS.
GUILDHALL. NOTTINGHAM ALLEGED FRAUD. —Henry Wiltshire, hawker, was charged with obtaining by false pretences on January 24th. the prisoner, who pleaded not guilty. Prosecutrix said prisoner came in with two other men carrying a heavy roll linoleum. They unrolled It, showing there was more than four yards length, and they ask 17s. afterwards she found it was only a short length. Mr. Young said that undoubtedly the woman had been led to purchase something which was not worth the money she paid for it, but there was no misrepresentation on part of the prisoner He did not say it was the same piece of linoleum, and it was unreasonable for the woman to expect for 5s. that what was worth 17s. The magistrates dismissed the case.
Monday 17 september 1934 nottingham evening post
GENTLEMAN AND HIS LADY FRIENDS.
NOTTM. DRUNKENNESS CHARGE.
When Henry Wiltshire, 50, hawker, of St. Ann'street, appeared before the magistrates with two women companions at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day, jointly charged with being drunk and disorderly in Milton-street on Saturday night, he declared himself to be a "gentleman," and took it upon himself the full blame for the lapse of the women. The women were Ellen Smith, 27, and Rose Ann Stranther, 40. Referring to one of them, Wiltshire declared :" My son married this woman's sister, and I had not seen this girl for a few years. They are here through me getting them drunk. "Its my fault." The Bench however, imposed fines. Wiltshire and Smith were fined the higher amounts
Wednesday 6 november 1907 nottingham evening post
Charge that Failed.—Henry Wiltshire, hawker, was charged with stealing a roll of linoleum, value £2, the property of Arthur Cooper, Prosecutor said he was linoleum dealer. On the 31rt prisoner, his uncle, and witness were out with an horse and cart selling the roll, and called at a public house.. When they had been there a quarter of an hour Wiltshire went out and failed to return. going out the horse and cart—which belonged to the uncle were gone. The following morning he saw him in Waterlane and called P.c. Priestley, who subsequently arrested him, Mr. R. A. Young, defending. argued that no case had been made out. His client attempted to sell the roll, and rather than take all the way bock left it with Mrs. Wragg. The charge was dismissed.
above it says Henry was Arthur Coopers Uncle , Elik said just in a matter of fact way to me that He once went to a Wiltshire wedding to a Cooper, my Aunty was Married to a Cooper, I don't know if He was of the Gipsys , Her name was Letty, I think its short for Letticia, or Lettia ,or Names sounding like that, thoes are Women's names, old Wiltshire Woman's names, just more to ponder on for Relatives who find these words
-
Exeter and Plymouth Gazette Friday 14 June 1918
Devon Assize.
Trials of Prisoners.
YOUTHFUL HORSE THIEF.
James Dixon, soldier, pleaded guilty to stealing an horse, the property of James Birch, Bishopsteignton, April 11th. Mr. W. T. Lawrence, who prosecuted, said Mr. Birch, who was a farmer, he bought the horse where he was staying, and put it in a field. Prisoner took the horse, and sold it to a farmer, at Taunton, for £15. The farmer became suspicions, and informed the police. Prisoner said when charged it was not worth, £30. P.S. Partridge said prisoner, was the son of gipsies and had always led the life of a gipsy. He had never been to school. And was unable read and write. After stealing the horse he joined the Army on May 7th and deserted on May lOth. His lordship said had prisoner been younger he would have sent him to a Borstal institution. But he could not overlook such a serious offence, although he was sorry for the prisoner, who had not had the advantage that a good many young fellows had. He would be imprisoned for six months with hard labour.
-
Bedfordshire Times and Independent Friday 22 December 1916 extract
On Monday at Luton Divisional Petty Sessions before Messrs. J. D. Wright (Chairman), Warren and J. W. Godfrey, Tom Loveridge was Charged that on Dec 10 at Limbury he did feloniously assault one, James Dinsey, with intent to rob him. Prisoner had been remanded in custody. Case dismissed Tom Loveridge was further chared with failing to produce his National Registration when requested at Limbury on 11 of December, replying Loveridge stated he did not understand the cards and thought he did not require one, fined two pounds ten shillings.Loveridge was further charged with assaulting Ambrose Loveridge in the june of 1912. Sent to Gaol for six weeks hard labour
-
Wells Journal Friday 17 August 1917
Absentee. —Jesse Hughes, alias John Loveridge, was charged with being an absentee under the Military Service Act. Prisoner pleaded guilty. PC. Whittier deposed arresting the prisoner near Burnham-on-Sea. He was with a gipsy named Penford. Fined and remanded in custody pending the arrival of an escort.
-
Western mail Saturday 11 may 1918
Daring Deserter Caught at Llanbradach
Nelson John, a gipsy who escaped a Military escort by jumping from a train travelling between Bridgend and Pyle, was arrested early on Friday and remanded in custody by Pontypridd Magistrates; He had been traced to the Garth Wood. Llanbradach, by Police Sergeant Watkins and four Constables
-
Biggesworth Chronicle Friday 26 July 1918
Gipsy Private’s escapades
At the Hitchin on Tuesday, two privates in the Middlesex Regt., stationed at Chatham. Elias Loveridge 18 and Benj. Ansom 18 were charged with stealing at Hexton on july the 22nd they were further charged with being absentees. It was alleged that they stole the basket and tin, which belonged to farm workers, from under an hedge. Supt. Reed said Loveridge was one of a well-known gipsy family. Defendants were detained on the first two charges, and remanded on the second to await escort.
-
Kent and Sussex courier Friday 30 November 1917
GIPSIES AND MILITARY SERVICE.
In the Police Court on Saturday, Henry Brown, a gipsy, was charged under the military Service Act with desertion, at Biddenden. on the previous day. P.C. Hughes stated he was asked to remove some gipsies on Green Lane, and on doing so found prisoner among them. On his enquiry as to why he was not in the Army prisoner gave him the discharge paper now produced. Witness on not being satisfied arrested prisoner. Prisoner now admitted the discharge paper was given to him by a man on the road. Ordered to await an escort.
-
Luton news and Bedfordshire chronicle Thursday 23 august 1917 extract
BANK HOLIDAY AT TODDINGTON.
Fifteen Charges of Assault.
The Woburn magistrates had a very arduous task on Friday, when they were called upon to investigate no fewer than fifteen chargers, arising out of a Bank Holiday disturbance at Toddington. Dr. Waugh presided, the other magistrates being Major Haines, Col. Mercer, and Mr. E. Creasey. The defendants charged were as follow: Israel Loveridge (51), gipsy. Assaulting P.s. Dennis and Special Constable George Nicholls. William Neal. and Waiter Seymour whilst in the execution of their duty August 6th. Eliza Loveridge, gipsy. Toddington 'wife of Israel Loveridge). assaulting P.s. Dennis and Special constables Walter Seymour. George Nicholls, Elijah Hawes, and William Neal. Supt. Matthews said the case arose out of a disturbance on the August Bank Holiday. The man who caused the disturbance, Ernest Evans, had already been dealt with. The special constable. said he pulled Elizabeth Evans off the sergeant, and Hyde came and pulled him away several times. The Lovcridges threatened him that if they got him a hundred yards out of the town his life would not be worth 2d. Mrs. Loveridge said she would pull every hair out of his head P.s. Dennis stated that about 8.30 p.m. on the Bank Holiday, whilst he was arresting the prisoner in Luton-road, Toddington. Loveridge came up. And struck, and pulled him about and attempted to rescue the prisoner. A soldier came to witnees's help, and Loveridge assaulted him also. Loveridge and his wife did all they could to obstruct witness. Israel Loveridge, on oath,said he went to Flitwick with his brother on the Bank Holiday, and they had a lot to drink together. He was also excited about hearing from his three Sons in the Army. He was drunk and didn't know a policeman from anyone else. That was the first time that he had drank for seven years.
-
Luton News and Bedfordshire Chronicle Thursday 19 April 1917
Limbury
Alleged Deserter.
Wm. Smith, a young gipsy of no fixed abode, was brought before the Mayor of Luton and Mr. Geo. Warron at an occasional Luton divisional court yesterday, charged with having stolen an harness, a gun, carridge lamps etc, value 12 pounds 14s 6d, the property of Bone Bros, Limbury, between April 4th and 5th-Supt. Panter said that evidence of arrest was given a week ago, and he asked for another remand to the ordinary petty sessions next Monday.-Prisoner was a deserter from the Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry. He asked for the remand for another man was concerned in the crime-Prisoner was remanded till Monday to Bedford Gaol.
-
Lancashire Evening Post Monday 23 December 1918
Preston Detectives obliged to release Soldier
At Preston this morning, Frank Smith 27, Soldier in hospital uniform and wearing two wound stripes, was charged with stealing a parcel from a farmers cart in the yard of the Corporation Arms, on Saturday afternoon. The parcel contained two dolls, a toy motor, a rattle, a bottle of sent, and a hankerchief. Prisoner was seen to take the parcel out of the cart and run away, and was arrested a few minutes later by Detective -Sergts Keliet and Lee in Frargate, but struggled and appealed to the crowd which was so hostile that the Detectives were obliged to release him. Detective Sergt Lee said he was bitten by the prisoner during the struggle. Accused was seen later by the same Detectives and apprehended. and the parcel was afterwards recovered from his Sister who is a gipsy hawker. Prisoner said he did not remember anything about the theft. He came over to Preston on leave from an hospital at Liverpool. Mr. Smith prosecuting said prisoner was half mad with drink at the time. He was then in Khaki, and not hospital blue. Fined 20s and ordered to pay the Advocates Fee.
PS, just a side note from listening to the war programmes, hospital blue was the colour of the wounded Soldiers uniform, people in the know new this from their educational research, but through the ability now for people to colour their own old photos people who are not experts are finding out such things for themselves.
-
Liverpool Daily Post Saturday 27 May 1916
Absentees fined
Samuel Locke, a travelling gipsy, who also failed to report himself at Bangor, was similarly fined, and remanded for the military escort His brother, Harold Lock, who was charged with using words intended to create disaffection in the Army, informed the magistrates that a constable had struck him and his brother outside the court-room. The defendants’ parents, who were in court, joined the defendant in loud cries of protest, while the defendant brandished his fists in the face of the constable. The efforts to quell the court were unavailing until the bench threatened to clear the court, when the defendant and his parents calmed down. Evidence was given that the defendant and his people urged his brother not to join the Army, this Country is not worth fighting for. He was fined £5, which was promptly paid.
-
Sussex agricultural express Friday 1 December 1916
Rounding up the gipsies
GOOD WORK BY THE UCKFIELD POLICE.
Those of the nomads who have settled in that part of Sussex which is under the supervision of the Uckfield Police Division, in the happy hope that they will escape from military service, could not have made less a fortunate choice, as they are rapidly finding out. During the early hours of Thursday a number of sergeants and constables made a raid on the gipsy encampment at Crewborough, and after an exciting time secured a very substantial bag. The sequel came later in the day, when, before Lord Henry Nevill and Mr. J. Hartell, the following were brought up at the Police Court at Crowborough, charged with being absentees: William Smith, 31; Henry Wilson, 27; George Smith, who said that he was over the age, Tom Smith. 25; Charles Elliott, 30 ; Arthur Skilton, 32; Elias Harris, 24; Alfred Smith, 20; and Aaron Smith, 39. Tom Smith and Charles Elliott were stated to be deserters from the Coldstream Guards, and Arthur Skilton from the south Middlesex. Police-Sergeant Savage gave evidence concerning the capture of the men, and the deserters were remanded to await an escort, as were the remainder, who were fined each in addition.
PS. there is no doubt in my mind that hunting down the Gipsys was to the hunters a very exciting time, I do wonder myself now, what of all these so called Gipsy scholars,
"During the early hours of Thursday a number of sergeants and constables made a raid on the gipsy encampment at Crewborough, and after an exciting time secured a very substantial bag".
-
Coventry standard Friday 15 September 1916
DISCIPLINE FOR THE GIPSY.
One idly wonders what effect military service will have upon the gipsy. Both at Coventry and at Coleshill men were brought last week before the magistrates, and charged with being absentees under the Military Service Acts. A gipsy mother at the latter town, being questioned with regard to a claim that her offspring was only seventeen, replied that he was always well fed, and had little work. Sages who have inquired into the history of the gipsy tell that this has been their ideal of life ever since they first made their appearance in Europe about the year 1400, and it is probable that England is the country where they have been enabled to follow it with the least let or hindrance owing to the absence in the past of any interference with personal liberty. However, now that the Military Service Acts are introducing a large number of the wandering tribes to rules of order and discipline it is quite within the bounds of possibility that the future generations may witness a marked diminution in the number of those who live in the picturesque caravan
-
Taunton courier and western advertiser 28 June 1916
Friday.—Before the ex-Mayor G. Hinton,
Mr. F. W. Penny, and Mr. J. P. Sibley.
ASSAULT ON A GIPSY.
Thomas Roberts, a gipsy, of no fixed abode, was charged with having, on the 19th inst, assaulted and beaten Wm. Loveridge, also a travelling gipsy. Mr. C. P. Clarke was for the complainant, and Mr. McGahey, of Exeter, represented the defendant. who pleaded not guilty, Mr. Clarke stated that the charge was a serious one. The men were engaged on business at the Taunton Fair, and happened to meet at the Saracen's Head Inn. Previously Loveridge had met his brother Edward, and they were having a horse deal in the ordinary way, perfectly quiet and well-behaved. Suddenly Loveridge, the complainant, said Roberts, who happened to be standing near, "Roberts, didn't I pay you for that mare" That seemed to enrage Roberts, who at once jumped up, struck at Loveridge, caught him by the throat, and pushed him backwards through the window of the Saracen's Head Inn, seriously injuring him ; he was taken to the hospital, and had to remain until Wednesday. Evidence bearing out this statement was given, complainant who stated that defendant said he would " Do for him”. Dan Loveridge, licensed hawker, stated that he was at the Saracen's Head the evening of the 19th, and saw what took place. The assault was entirely unprovoked. Witness endeavoured to part the men. The only remark made before the assault was about the mare. Complainant was his brother. They were all Romaneys. James Holland, another gipsy, who was also present, stated that he did not see the blows struck. He saw the men struggling, and the complainant's head struck the window as he fell backwards. Mr. McGahey, addressing the Bench. Suggested that both men might be bound over to keep the peace towards one another. The men were members of the Romany class, and up to last Saturdav they had been pretty good friends. On Saturday defendant came to Taunton, and there was a disturbance. On Monday Roberts had with him a nephew who was leaving that day for the Front. He was followed about the town. Defendant wanted to have a disturbance, and, after he had seen his nephew off by train, he returned to the Saracen's Head Inn, and was sitting down quietly in his chair, when complainant caught him by the throat. He grappled with the man in self-defence, and in the struggle complainant's head came in contact with the glass panel. Evidence having been given. By deputy Chief Constable Brown, he said there was long list of previous convictions for assault, cruelty. Disorderly conduct and assaulting the police. The number totalled 29,' from 1887 to February last, but there was nothing of a serious nature for twenty years. The Bench imposed a fine of £5, and allowed one guinea advocate s fee.
PS. as you will see through reading of the Gipsys, you will come to know they are nothing like what some of those "so called scholars" have wrote about, and worse to, people in this time who think they know things, believe the scholars, just work it out for yourself, the fabricators know who they are and hate the fact they have no real love for the Gipsys, its them who are pagodo, but I say they are all forgiven, we are taught to forgive, its not my fault the Great Gipsy Dead would have nothing to do with such people, its not my fault I was born darker than them, but still I say we should forgive them, I hope I have helped many good people to find the truth about what happened to their Relatives, a very shameful time, the Gipsys were hounded over this Country like some great serfari in Africa, we all must tell the true story of their plight, we must honor their names now and forever, then they will rest, when George hall wrote about the Gipsys, you know the real ones, har that was it, the real ones just stole a few turnips, you may think he was right, that's fine fair enough, but I say Gipsys have always been on the run, while on the run some were more rip roaring than others, these Gipsys had the run of the towns, city's, and villagers, roads, lanes, highways and byways, the more rip roaring you were the more miles you could travel and make money, it was not that some were less than others for they moved from city to the country side, big names moved through citys and the back lanes, the reason some could not travel all the routes was be course they never had the back up of rough and tough rip roaring Gipsys, that's the truth of it, the Wiltshires and all their Names were triple D dangerous, they had a massive area to rome over several countys and the back up of the most rip roaring Gipsys of their day I have found lots of great Names while I have researched thousands of records, names like Booth and Elliott, Sheriff and Boswell, Loveridge and Locke, Smith and Winter, boy ho boy they sure are all rip roaring, there are many names to, if you took away there names and just read the records, you wouldn't know who was who, but I do , there Gipsys, Rip Roaring Gipsys, theres lots of names not just the chosen few, Lee once said his Father told Him that all Gipsys are related, Lee went on to expand this by saying Gipsys live in Family tribes, several names make one Family, yes all Gipsys are related, them old scholors should of talked to Gipsys like Lees Dad, now there's the truth of it
-
i am still writing of the times of the Great War, and will soon put more on before i ask questions of you good people, but like i have said there are many names connected to the Gipsys, another great Name i have found is the name of Lowther, again truthfully i do not know of them only they seem to be close Pals of the Wiltshires around the times i speak of and i would not be surprised if they were related in some way, they to seem to be connected to the Smiths, i just wanted to mention their name for the Relatives of the People i write about, plus to i write for everyone who as a true interest of the true life of all the Great Gipsys, this is below just a few little stories of the Lowthers, i will write more about them and the Wiltshire's in the war years and lingering times, so yes respect for the Lowthers, a Great Name indeed, a Name that should be mentioned and remembered, i have already wrote one record of them in the war years some posts back but soon several more,
Yorkshire Gazette
Saturday25 November 1893
Interesting Story about Gipsies.—Before Messrs Strangwayes
and J. H. Love, on Wednesday,
the office of the Clerk to the Justices at Easingwold,
Dinah Lowther, a gipsy hawker, was charged by Inspector Harnby with camping out on the highway, and making a fire thereon, in the parish of Farlington. The Inspector having received complaints about this woman and her sons and a man named Smith breaking down hedges, he went to Farlington on the 20th inst., and found the parties in the bridle road leading to Marton. They had a covered waggon, a horse, and three dogs, and there was a large fire on the road made of wood taken from hedges. Smith ran away, and the eldest son made off with the horse and waggon. The woman was arrested. James Welburn, farmer, of Marton, said the party had done a good deal of damage on his farm by injuring fences and turning their horse into his fields. Christopher Savage, jun., a farmer, of Farlington, gave similar evidence, and said that the man Smith on being caught with his horse in a field on his (witness's) father's farm became very abusive, and threatened to
" take his skin off as clean as a duck stripped of its feathers."
The prisoner begged to be let off this time, but the Bench fined her £2 ls. 6d. including the costs, and default of payment she was committed to prison for one month.
Carlisle Patriot
Friday 14 October 1887
THE CALENDARS
The County Sessions
James Lowther, alias James Miller, 30 Hawker, charged with stealing a quantity of lead the value of 14s, the property of James graham Hewitt, at Penrith on September 10.
Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser
Tuesday 29 December 1874
Stabbing by a Gipsy—Yesterday,
at the Bury petty sessions,
Thomas Lowther a gipsy, residing at Wrigley Brook, Heywood, was charged with having stabbed John Gaskell with intent to do him grievous bodily harm. According to the information given to the police, it seems that on Saturday the prisoner and another gipsy, William Wilson, commenced a disturbance with a hawker of fruit, named James Ackerley, The man John Gaskell, who lives at Bagslete, was over at Birtle on a visit to his father in-law. Mr. Chadwick, he saw the disturbance, and he kept an eye on the gipsies while Ackerley went for a policeman. Before the constable arrived, Lowther turned back on Gaskell and stabbed him in the side with a dagger pointed knife. — The prisoner was remanded till Thursday.
Carlisle Journal
Tuesday 15 October 1861
The Sessions
John Winter and Henry Lowther charged with stealing a fiddle the property of Martin Shank, at Wigston on the 20th of August 1861
Whitehaven News
Thursday 18 July 1861
BOOTLE SESSIONS.
John Wilson Lowther, hawker, was charged with stealing from the person Charles Lowther Boyd, hawker, the sum of 10s., on the evening of the 8th instant, while he was drunk at Ulpha Kircus ; he was also charged with having, the following day, Duddon Bridge, stolen a horse and cart, the property of the said Charles Lowther Boyd, value 10s. Prosecutor stated that he and the prisoner started from Bootle the morning of the 3rd instant for Whitehaven, where he sold some rags. afterwards they 'purchased some herrings, which he put in prisoner’s cart. They both then went to Collision, and sold the herrings, and on their return to Duddon Bridge, Monday, they went over the fell, and sent their wives to Duddon Bridge, in charge of the carts. Prisoner and he went to a public house at Kircus. and were drinking there for some time, till they got drunk and were put out by the landlord. Prosecutor then went into an outhouse and laid down, then the prisoner came and took the purse and money out of his pocket, The bench dismissed the case.
-
I know I'm still writing about the Gipsys of the Great War, but like I have just wrote I have found a Gipsy Family named Lowther going round with the Wiltshires round the War years, and they sure sound like Gipsys to me, I make no distinction from the very old original Familys and the Familys that came out of them, how would I know such things anyhow, well I have been putting on records above about the Lowthers to hopfully help with the research of people who look for them, plus I would say somwere the Wiltshires could be Related to the Lowthers, you will see when I put the storys on about them round the times of the early 1900s, boy ho boy they sure are Rip Roaring, any way look at this record story I just this minute found, I don't know what to think of it, do you think the Boswell Man is a Gipsy, I thought the name sounded right, then Lowther had the first name of Moses, Sue once wrote the Boswells love that name, could the Lowthers have come out of the Boswells, its just a very old record, believe me I have looked at thousands of records, when you start getting back to the early 1800s, you are mostley left with the original Great Names, there must be an answer there, if anyone can answer it would I say be a good thing to help others, and a hawker of spectacle's, that's a new one for me, but a few yeares later I found another Lowther doing the same thing I will put that on to later, if any one can help please write and say how you think the truth is, it would be a good thing to do
Yorkshire Gazette
Saturday 9 March 1833
Yorkshire Spring Assizes 1833
Crown Court Tuesday March 5
MOSES LOWTHER (35), hawker of spectacle’s, was charged with having, on the 6th day of February last, at Stanley, violently assaulted William Gosnay, and stolon one red leather pocket-book, three five pound notes, 12 sovereigns, and other monies, from his person. After the Jury were sworn, the prisoner applied to have his trial put off, saying, that he had several witnesses coming on his behalf_ The Judge told him, that he had made his application too late; and that the trial must go on. Mr Dundass Appeared for the prosecution. The prisoner had no counsel. The prosecutor, a blacksmith, residing at Newton Kyme, was going to Wakefield, on the evening of the 6th of February. As he was walking along, a man, who was standing on a dunghill, rushed on him, and threw him to the ground; and another man came up and rifled his pockets. They took his waistcoat, containing his pocket-book and money, and then decamped; leaving the flap of one of their coats in the prosecutor's possession, he having torn it off in the scuffle. The same evening, Lowther and a man named Boswell were found at a public house, kept by a man named Clegg, playing at cards with the landlord. They were searched but none of the stolen property was found upon them. Lowthers coat had however lost the flap, and the piece which Gosnay had, exactly fitted it, Lowther persisted in his innocence ; and said, witnesses would be here tomorrow, and who would prove it. He was found Guilty_ Judgment of death recorded_ Phoenix Boswell was indicted with him, but the Grand Jury ignored the bill.
-
Yorkshire Gazette Saturday 16 February 1833
Moses Lowther, hawker, and Phoenix Boswell, tinker, of Stanley-cum- Wrenthorpe, charged with assaulting Wm. Gosnay, and robbing him the sum of £28.
-
just a few observations from extracts that may be of help for others
Yorkshire gazette Saturday 2 march 1833
MOSES LOWTHER (35), hawker of spectacles, and PHOENIX BOSWELL (26), tinker and razor-grinder, both late of Stanley-cum-Wrenthorpe, charged upon the oath of Gosnay, of Stanley aforesaid, blacksmith
Yorkshire Gazette Saturday 25 May 1833
Convicts, The following convicts were removed from York castle, last week, to undergo their sentences of transportation_ for life .Moses Lowther. To be delivered on boared the Cumberland and York.
York Herald Saturday 14 November 1835
Unfounded Charge of Rape. John Lowther Hawker of spectacles was charged before the Magistrates at the Guild Hall. The case at first sight assumed a very serious appearance, the accused is a married man, having a wife and nine children, the complainant is the daughter of a traveller, the parties met on the road, Lowther engaged the girl for three years, they have been in the habit of traveling about the country. Lowther also seems to have had other girls with him in his service. After the case had been very minutely investigated for nearly four hours, the bench obserbed that it was not of that discretion which they first considered it. And ordered Lowther to enter into recognizance in the sum of forty pound, he was discharged.
I have also noticed through records that the Lowthers used as an alias, the name of Miller, Miller seems to be another fine Gipsy name, they also go back a good way, the Wiltshire's are also connected through story's with a Family named Burnside, the Burnsides connect to the Cunningham's, in fact everyone seems to be connected to each other once you start looking, there are many names that evolved out of the well known names that are spoken of today, some of these names in time will be proved to contain direct links to the Gipsys that are well known, other names will be shown to contain links through Cousins or many other ways, none of this meens you are better than that person, or your Family is greater than their Family, of course their were Family's with old Romany ways, if they looked down their noses, well who am i to argue, yet when you get past certain times scales that bypass the writings of certain so called scholars, you will find that the old Gipsys are just the same as Gipsys a hundred years later no matter their Name, they were always on the run and the greatest of minds, plus an unrivalled humour in their journey fighting against the odds again again and again, much of this Romany talk was a myth created to change the very fabric that is the tapestry the mosaic the truth, why because so called scholars wanted their writings to fit in with how they saw life, its was their ideal of history, writers over the years when finding so called truths say things like John so and so of 18 hundred and twenty two was a farm hand and married a third Cousin of Francis so and so, der der derrrr, the music roles, I can feel it through many of their words how they down play the life's of Gipsys, all the Family's that come from the Gipsys are Gipsys, now and forever, there will be many names that joined the Gipsys in many country's over hundreds of years, again and again the Gipsy language changed adding words from the many country's they travelled through, this is the Gipsy, a Great People formed on the run, there is never just one founding person, everyone should be Proud who in any way is here today becourse you feel that link back to the Great People, never worry about those who sever their links, don't worry about the lies, the put downs, putdowns evan from those who should know better, I see how they wait, wait for the opening, yes I see them, it is them who shoulder the shame,
Respect to all Gipsys of the Long Years, Rest in Peace.
Newcastle courant
Friday 19 may 1843
The Worship the Mayor of Durham
At the petty sessions, held at the court house Morpeth, William Miller, of Rothburry hawker of earthenware fined for encamping and lighting fires on the highway called silver lane.
Sheffield town hall 1874
A Discriminating Thief.— Joseph Wilsher, pot hawker, was sent to gaol for a month for stealing glasses from a cart at the fair on the previous evening.—Prisoner asked to be dealt leniently with, he said "he did not steal' wishfully,' or anything of that sort, but only to get a glass of beer when he was going home." (Laughter.)
Nottingham review and general advertiser for the midland counties
Friday 22 July 1842
Town Hall, Mansfield. — On the 5th instant, before Captain Salmond On the 6th. Before the magistrate,
William Wiltshire, pot-hawker, was convicted for furiously driving his horse and cart.
The Newcastle Chronicle
Northumberland 13 December 1766
Now in custody in the house of correction in Morpeth, the following persons found strolling and begging in this county, were apprehended, and committed, as vagrants and vagabonds,
Robert Heron, Edward Boswell, and Moses Boswell,
Robert Heron is about 63 years of age, and of a swarthy complexion, says he is a Tin Man by trade.
Edward Boswell is about 26 years of age, and of a very dark complexion, says he is by trade a Brazier or Tinker.
Moses Boswell says he is the Brother of Edward and is about 23 years of age, and of a swarthy complexion, says he deals in selling mugs about the country.
-
some Gipsys took names, well every Gipsy took names, what I mean is a Gipsy Family or a single person weather Male or Female could of just took the name of Lowther, or a indigenous British Lowther could of married or joined with the Gipsys, intern the name of Lowther entered into the many names of the Gipsys, there was a great British Family that seemed to come from a lower rank at one time yet they went on to dominate in so many ways that I have read about, what I now put on is only a few extracts from much larger fuller writings, very very interesting is the story of the Lowthers of the north, one which deserves a much more in-depth educated analysis that which I give, you must remember I am far from an educated man and just go with the breeze, I do hope that all the things I write about will someday be expanded on, good luck, if it was an indigenous Lowther that joined with the Gipsy I think also that many British people took the name of the local Lords of the Manor, there could be so many answers to the storys I have put on, fair play to the Lowthers, I would call them Gipsys.
Kendal mercury
Saturday 15 August 1863
THE HISTORY OF THE LOWTHERS. (From the Spectator.) The history of the Lowthers is that of immense and almost unbroken civil success. Though they date from the earlier feudal period, and possess to this day a power more nearly feudal than that of any family in England except the Percies and the Wimns, they would be defined on the Continent belonging rather to the peerage "of the robe" than the nobility of the sword. A race of proud, sensitive, and singularly efficient men, they have filled high office as lawyers, battled bravely as politicians, and performed once or twice great service as Ministers of the State, but they have not contributed generals, or reared up great admirals, or flung back invasion at their own cost and charge. They have been great servants of the State, not great members of it. Their original ancestry is hard to trace, but it cannot have been a high one, for the family takes its name from the little Westmorland River. The name of William de Lowther appears at the head of the gentry of Westmoreland as witness to a deed in the reign of Henry 11, and Sir Thomas and Sir Gervase de Lowther occur in the register of Wetherill Priory, under The great-grandson of Sir Gervase, Sir Hugh de Lowther, performed the functions of Attorney General in the twentieth year of Edward 1. And may be accepted as the founder of the great fortunes of the" house”. This Sir Hugh possessed lands in the hamlet of Whale and in Thurmby, as well as the manor of Lowther, and was also seized of the manor and town of Widchope in Cumberland. Sir Hugh represented the shire of Westmorland in Parliament in 1300 and 1305, was " a justice” itinerant and escheated on the north side of the “Trent," and for five hundred years there never again sat a Parliament which was not attended by a Lowther or a Lowther's direct nominee. His eldest son, also Sir Hugh, sided with the Earl of Lancaster in the struggle of Galveston, but subsequently made his peace with the King; and a brother, Thomas de Lowther, became in 1330 a justice, and in the following year Chief Justice of the King's Bench in Ireland. It was a habit of this house, as we shall see, to export its cadets to Ireland. The second Sir Hugh married the daughter and heiress of Lucia Lord Edgemont, Baron of Cockermouth, and obtained licence to make a park in his manor of Lowther. This feudal privilege obtained, the family rested for years, though Sir Hugh's great grandson was at Agincourt; but the grandson of the Agincourt hero married the daughter of Sir Lancelot Threlheld, a half-sister of Henry Lord Clifford —the "Shepherd Lord" of ballad and romance, and his grandson again intermarrying with his cousin, the daughter of the " Shepherd Lord”
-
York herald
Saturday 1 July 1893
NORTHERN ANSWERS. ( The Lowthers. — The family of Lowther is of great antiquity in the county of Westmoreland. The name is local, and has been written Loder, Louder, Loader, Louthrey. and Lowther, from the town and manor of Lowther. Many members of this ancient family have held eminent state appointments. Lowther of Whitehaven. — Sir Hugh deLouther, Knt., was Attorney -general in Edward I. reign, and in the lists of Sheriffs for the counties of Cumberland and Yorkshire, the name of Lowther appears many times
-
Sunderland daily echo and shipping gazette
Friday 6 October 1899
LORD ENTERTAINS GIPSIES.
The Central News correspondent at Kirkby Stephen telegraphs :—Lord Lonsdale last Tuesday entertained at Lowther Castle a number of gipsies who had been attending the neighbouring Brough Hill fair races. Sports were held, and the Earl's unusual guests were entertained to the best of everything
-
Sunderland Daily Echo
Tuesday 3 June 1913
” Peeress and a Gypsy”.
Lady Arthur Grosvenor, aunt of the Duke of Westminster, is touring in a caravan in Surrey and is spending this week at Epsom. Her ladyship started her caravan tour at Reading on Wednesday, the vehicle bearing a shining brass plate, inscribed, “Syrena Lee. licensed hawker.” She is accompanied by John Lowther, a gypsy, who drives another caravan.
-
Portsmouth evening news
Friday 23 august 1929
Lord Lonsdale, and the hawker
Lord Lonsdale and a hawker were the central figures in a human incident at Grasmere (Westmorland) sports yesterday. Seeing the hawker selling sprigs of white heather from a scrap box Lord Lonsdale astonished the man by taking the box. He went to the grandstand and forced sales amongst his party. Not to be out done, the hawker handed a sprig to lord Lonsdale. Who pinned it in on the coat of his brother, capt, the Hon,. Lancelot Lowther.
-
this story is interesting in many ways one of them is that Ambrose Stephenson is the Uncle of George Lowther, remember the post I wrote, when I talk about John Lowther in 1835, well one of the Girls that travelled with him was named Stephenson, more for you who are interested to think on, I wander is Stephenson a Gipsy name,
Newcastle journal
Monday 2 march 1868
Supposed Death from Excessive Drinking at York. —On Saturday afternoon a inquest was held at the Harcourt Arms, Church Street, by Wood, the coroner, respecting the death of Ambrose Stephenson, a jobbing tinner and brazier, 70 years of age, living in Swinegate. The deceased left his home at noon on Friday, and said to his wife that after he had delivered his work he would return with something for dinner. In the afternoon he was with his nephew, George Lowther, a pot hawker, at the Coach and Horses public-house, in Micklegate, where they had some ale, and then went to the City Arms’ public-house, in Watergate, where they had more ale. The deceased here met with some other relatives, and drank with them. He left the City Arms about seven o’clock, and on coming into the street he fell underneath the window of the house, and was taken up in a state of insensibility. A cab was procured, and he was conveyed to his home in Swinegate. On arriving there he was still unconscious, and it was said that he was dead “drunk,” having swallowed about quart of neat rum. He was taken upstairs, and laid upon a bed with his clothes on. He never became sensible; and died shortly before three o’clock on Saturday morning, his wife being under the impression that the excessive drinking of rum had caused his death, as she believed that the vomited smelled strongly of that spirit. Mr Marshall, surgeon, who was called in, was of opinion that the deceased had died of apoplexy, which might have arisen naturally, or from excessive drinking, but the evidence did not seem to support the latter view
-
again and again the Gipsy Spirit shines through, the sharp wit of a Gipsy through the hundreds of years of records I have read speaks great volumes of there long fight for the right to live, and how they answered the many questions of life that have daunted manys the people through the ages
of man
Derbyshire times and chesterfield herald
Friday January 1939
FOUND AT LAST FOR HACKENTHORPE CASE
Seventy - nine - year - old Christiania Lowther, a Sheffield hawker, introduced comedy into Renishaw Police Court on Monday. She was charged with obtaining 2/3 by false pretences from Ethel Paddison, and a similar sum from Sally Lilley at Hackenthorpe on April 9th. Supt. Clarke said that although defendant was 79 years of age she was elusive enough, for the notice had been looking for her since April. She had been travelling for some years selling elderflower and peppermint in bottles. At Hackenthorpe she found two rather sympathetic people and sold them what she said were bottles of elderflower. But when the bottles were opened they were found to contain ordinary water. Defendant said she must have got “mixed up” with the bottles. The Magistrates Clerk (Mr T A Howes-Smith): There is difference in colour between elderflower and water, you know. Defendant; Yes, but my eyes aren’t too good. sir. She was bound over to come up for judgment in 12 months if called upon As the Chairman (Mr. J. L W Butler-Bowdon) said to defendant "Keep out of the medicine trade” she shook hands with Inspector Schofield and walked away amidst great laughter. The other magistrates were Mr M Hollingworth and Mr. S. Woodhead!
Rest in Peace Christiania Lowther, your one of the best
-
I will now finish these story's and return to the war years, there are many more story's of the Lowthers , I hope to put them on in the future, I have been side-tracked but that's just the way of it, mind you I will soon speak of the Wiltshires and there Pals, yes the Lowthers will soon be back in great force,
this is the true story of Charles Lowthers little Boy, I wander what life he went on to live, I hope he had a happy and long life,
Rest in Peace
Lancaster gazette
Saturday 6 October 1855
Accident. — On Tuesday evening last, a fine little boy about three years of age, son of Charles Lowther, earthen- ware dealer, fell from the front of a cart on which he was riding at the foot of Hill-fall, and the wheel passed over the child's neck. He was taken up, life apparently ex- tinct, and taken into Mr. Watters', at the Barley Mow lnn, when upon some cold water and other restoratives, being applied animation was restored, and it is hoped the child may recover.
-
I know I said I was now returning to the war years and I am, but first I have to say a few words of the Stephenson's they came to me, now it is you who will hear of their Great Name
Daily gazette for Middlesbrough
Wednesday 29 June 1870
Mary Winter, a travelling pot-hawker, was apprehended at Nunthorpe by P.C. Dove, on the 22nd inst, on a charge of being drunk and riotous and assaulting her husband. Fined 9s, and 1s costs, or in default, 14 days, with hard labour. The money was paid. Road Offence. — Alexander Stephenson, pot- hawker, Stokesley, was summoned by P.C. Dove for allowing two horses to stray on the highway at Stokesley, on the 22nd inst. Fined 3s, and 7s costs.
-
once again the Great Gipsy Humour, in February 1874 there was a school bored Election Day, look how the Gipsy Man Stephenson turns the tables of fear
Shields daily gazette
Thursday 5 February 1874
ELECTION AGENT.
Thomas Stephenson, hawker, was charged with being drunk Ferry Street, Tuesday night. Prisoner said he had only had three gills of ale, but some young men had put some rum into it. He pleaded the excuse that he had been very much engaged in the elections lately. (Laughter.) prisoner was discharged
-
Yorkshire gazette
Saturday 9 july 1864
STOKESLEY. Police Court.—On Saturday last, before George Marwood, Esq., and John Wilson, Esq., Zachariah Stephenson, of Stokesley, pot hawker, was charged by John Bamlett, tax collector, with refusing to pay a poor rate. Settled out of court, defendant paying rate and 11s costs,
-
I am sure I hear a lot through records of this Water Lane, something to dwell on
York herald
14 December 1877
Wilful Damage. — Jane Gorman, of Water-lane, single woman, was charged with wilfully breaking 19 squares of glass in the windows of the Spotted Dog public-house, Walmgate, kept by William Horwell. Alexander Stephenson, hawker, was also charged with breaking a door there, lt appears that on Wednesday evening the two defendants went into the Spotted Dog and called for some beer. The beer was served to them, when they commenced fighting. They were put out by the landlord, and the female defendant then broke the squares of glass mentioned, and the other
Defendant kicked a swing at the door and broke it fo off the hinges. The defendants were each fined, The defendant Gorman was also ordered to pay for the damage to the windows, and Stephenson 4s. For the damage to the door.
-
Huddersfield chronicle Tuesday 7 April 1874
A Glanderd Horse at the Fair. — Benjamin Stephenson, hawker, of Leeds, was charged on remand with having, on the previous Tuesday, unlawfully ex- posed in the March fair a horse affected with the glanders. — Mr. Withers read the 57th section of the Act, under which the case was taken, and pointed out that for such an offence the magistrates were empowered to inflict a penalty not exceeding £20. The horse in question had been taken into the fair, where there were hundreds of horses ; and when spoken to about it he took it to the Elephant and Castle stables, thus Discharged. — Thomas Gannon, labourer. Manchester-street, and William Parker, pedlar, Swallow-street, . dendant said he bought the horse at the fair. Now he was the only man who had exposed it, to the Knowledge of the police, and until he found the person of whom he bought the horse, he was alone, responsible. A transaction had taken place; but the defendant was associated with a number of men who were "up to" transactions of that kind. He lodged with the daughter of a dealer in horses commonly known as a " knacker." The horse in question had come from Knottingly to the fair, and he might mention that the police of Knottingley had quite recently destroyed a glandered horse belonging to the person referred to. He wished the magistrates to exercise caution before coming to the conclusion that the transaction alluded to was a bona fide one — Police-constable Firth gave evidence as to a transaction having taken place. He examined that the horse in the yard adjoining the Elephant and Castle, and from the appearance of the muscles and the sores, which covered its jaws, he suspected that it was a case of glanders. Anyone could see that something was seriously the matter with the horse. Defendant had said he bought the horse at the fair. — Richard Ainley spoke to having seen the horse, which was running at the nose and presented all the symptoms of glanders. The defendant had been going about with a party of six or eight men, who appeared to be horse dealers like him. Six hours were spent in a search after the man of whom the defendant said he bought the horseof, but they did not succeed in finding any such person. — Mr. Kirk, causing the landlord to looe some money. The veterinary surgeon, gave evidence to the effect that it was a very bad case of glanders. In cross-examination he admitted that the symptoms of catarrh in several respects resembled those of glanders. The horse was afterwards removed and shot as required by the Act. Mr. Withers, sworn, said he had examined the horse on the Tuesday. Defendant said he had bought the horse, but although every opportunity was given they were unable to find the party of whom he had bought it. He was apprehended near the Fitzwilliam Hotel, not having been able to account satisfactorily for his being in possession of the horse. He was a hawker, and had given the address of No. 1, Richard-street, Hunslet. Leeds. — Mr. Sykes contended there was no ground for the charge, the evidence tending to show that there was no exposing for sale on the part of the defendant, who had unhesitatingly given his name and address. He had gone to the fair to buy a horse, and in making the purchase, as he had done, he was doing what was a perfectly legitimate transaction. There was no exposure for sale on the part of the buyer, who had in fact been imposed upon by another. He submitted that glanders was a " difficult disease to detect, and that it was incumbent on the prosecutor to show that there was a knowledge on the part of the defendant that it was a glardered horse. The defendant's licence as a hawker was put in. Evidence was then given for the defence to show that the purchase had been honestly entered into by the defendant, who had been seen to pay for the horse.— Thomas McLean, contractor, Hunslet, spoke to the respectability of the defendant, whom he had known for seven years. He kept a horse in his business. — The Bench, after due deliberation, decided that there was not sufficient evidence to prove that the defendant knew the horse was glandered. Considering the whole of the evidence, the charge had not been brought home and the defendant would therefore be discharged.
-
now you have the Family of Swales, did not I tell you Lees Dad said all Gipsys are Related
Daily gazette for Middlesbrough
Friday 18 October 1878
ALLEGED HOUSE BREAKIN'G AT STOKESLEY.
John Stephenson (20), hawker, was indicted for breaking into the house of Mark Swales, hawker, at Stokesley, on the 13th July last, and stealing a quantity of wearing apparel. Mr Luck prosecuted. — ln May last the prosecutor and his wife left Stokesley to attend Northallerton fair. The prisoner was Mrs Swale's brother-in-law, and he had permission to go into the house. On their return some wearing apparel was missed, and it was afterwards ascertained that the prisoner had pawned a portion of it. The prisoner's statement was that he stayed in his sister's house one night with a female, and on the following morning she gave him some clothing to sell, telling him it was her own. After he sold it he found that it belonged to his sister. The jury, after a lengthy deliberation, returned a verdict of not guilty.
-
Hartlepool northern daily mail
Monday 7 September 1885
Serious Accident at Stokesley. —On Saturday, a lad was filling a cart with grass, the horse took fright and bolted, the only occupant being a little girl. The mother, who is the wife of John Stephenson, hawker, was at the east end as the horse galloped past and tried to stop it. She was struck down the cart shaft and an infant which she had in her arms was thrown violently over her shoulder upon the road. It is not expected to recover. The mother’s collar-bone was broken, but the child in the cart escaped unhurt.
-
I found these old records I don't know what to think of them but put them on for future researches to find
York Herald Saturday 11 March
York Assizes 1809
Robert Stephenson, alias Robert Shaw aged 21 of Middleton stole out of a field a black mare the property of Ralf Graham.
Hull Packet Tuesday 28 March 1809
York Assizes Lent
before Simon De Blanc.
Johnathan Smith and Robert Stephenson Guilty of Horse stealing
-
do you remember Christina Lowther, now here you can meet Chistina Stephenson, remember from the other storys how the Lowthers are Related to the Stephensons
Beverley and East Riding Recorder
Saturday 7may 1910
STORY OF A PHEASANTS EGG.
At Monday Elizabeth Stephenson, hawker, was (summoned by Jonathan Caisley a gamekeeper, for game trespass and Christina Stephenson, the mother of the first defendant. also a hawker, was summoned for being in a unlawful possession of a pheasant egg evidence was given that on April 28 the women were seen by Caisley that they were acting in a suspicious manner near a pheasant’s nest close to the high road. The gamekeeper made investigations, and a pheasant was found in Elizabeth's basket and an egg in Mrs. Stephenson’s basket. The women pleaded not guilty. Elizabeth’s defence was that she found the pheasant on the road with its head off, and the head dropped from its wing. Mrs. Stephenson denied any knowledge of the egg being in her basket, and the daughter said she placed it there without her knowing. Elizabeth was fined Is. and costs, and Mrs. Stephenson was ordered to pay the costs.
-
I don't know who this Stephenson is , I just liked the story, that's why I put it on
Tamworth herald
Saturday 10 January 1885
Drunken Pugilists.—Thomas Murray, private in the South Staffordshire Regiment, stationed at Whittington, and William Stephenson, hawker of salt , residing in Aldergate were summoned for being drunk and riotous in Lichfield Street.—lt appeared from the evidence of P.C, Willis, that late Saturday evening, the defendants were fighting in Lichfield Street, and creating a great noise. He ordered them away, and they left quietly.—The Bench said that as the defendants left the streets when ordered they would be discharged on payment of the costs of the court.
Tamworth herald
Saturday 8 august 1885
TAMWORTH BOROUGH PETTY SESSIONS.
Wednesday.—Before Mr. Alderman Clarson and Mr. Alderman Flare. Breach of the Peace.—William Stephenson, hawker, and Francis Wileman, collier, both residing within the borough, were charged by Inspector Dodd with being guilty of a breach of the peace by fighting together, Both defendants pleaded guilty.—lt transpired that on the day in question, the two defendants, who were stripped to the waist, and were fighting one another in the public street, opposite the Bell Inn. Twenty or thirty rounds were fought, with alternate success sometimes one being knocked down and sometimes the other. A crowd of more than a hundred people gathered round the combatants, who did not separate until the police were sent to them. —Seven previous convictions were against Stevenson, and 10 against the other. The men were each bound over for six months, and each to pay the costs
-
York herald
Thursday 3 august 1882
KNABESBBO'. Petty Sessions. — Yesterday, the police summoned Benjamin Stephenson, pot hawker, for encamping on the Pole-lane at Greenham Merton with two waggons and six horses. Fined 20s. And costs
-
York herald Wednesday
5 august 1874
Alexandra Stephenson of Donby charged with furiously driving his horse and cart on the MoorsHolm
-
Yorkshire gazette
Saturday 2 February 1884
Edward Stephens a traveling hawker was fined 1s and costs for encamping on the highway in
“goose lane “on the 11ntl. Defendant had a tent and a fire.
-
now a man named Morrison comes in, I,m sure they are also Gipsys and Related, looks like everyone knows everyone
Durham county advertiser
Friday 29 October 1869
Horse stealing
The man who offered the mare for sale at Hett was Benjamin Stephenson. Jas Morrison a hawker living in Stockton said he was present when Benjamin Stephenson, who is a pot hawker, living in York, offered the mare for sale. He saw the prisoner pay three pounds fifteen shillings for the mare, which was delivered over to him, Mr Brignell, the man Stephenson is now running up and down Yorkshire, he will take good care not to come to Durham in a hurry, the Bench thought there was no evidence on which they could proceed against, and therefor discharged the prisoner.
-
Daily gazette for Middlesbrough
Monday 6 November 1871
Drunk and Riotous.
Alexander Stephenson, Stokesley, pot hawker, for being drunk and riotous at Stokesley, on the 20th October last, was fined 3s or hard labour— Mary Stephenson, Stokesley. pot hawker, for a similar offence on the same date at Stokesley, was fined ls and 7s costs, or seven days hard labour.— Thomas Farrow, for a similar offence at the same time and place, was fined 2s and 8s costs, or seven days hard labour.
-
Hartlepool Northern Daily Mail
Wednesday 28 April 1886
Local district
Furious Driving.—At West Hartlepool Police-court to-day, James Stephenson, hawker, was charged with furious driving in Church-street and Hart road on the 19th April. —defendant pleaded that the horse took fright at a tram-car but this was denied by the driver of the tram-engine, who stated that the horse passed the tram without alarm. Fine of 2s 6d and 11s 6d costs were inflicted.
-
now you have the Cunningham's with the Stephenson's, now I will leave it there and will now go back to the War years, boy ho boy Lees Dad was right,
York herald
Tuesday 19 march 1878
Benjiman Stephenson a gipsy charged for allowin his horse to stray on the highway at Healaugh fined 15s. Thomas Cunningham another gipsy fined for encamping on the highway at Healaugh fined 1 pound.
-
Diss express Friday
18 may 1917
Nathanial Smith, van dweller, of Baton, was charged on remand with being an absentee under the Military Service Act.—Police-sergeant Christie produced a copy of the police Gazette showing that defendant was an absentee under the Military Service Act, at Wickham Market since July.—Horace Thomas Hills, recruiting officer’s representative of Ipswich, said that a notice paper was sent to defendant at Wickham Market on June 7th last calling him to the colours on July 6th.The letter had not been returned through the Dead Hatter Office. The record showed that he was born in 1878—Defendant said he thought he was about 40 years of age. He denied having had any papers from the military. Police-constable Frederick Herbert Woods, of Hopton (Thatford), said he had known the accused for four years as one who went about in a caravan. In reply to the Chairman, defendant said he was not sure about his age. And did not know where he was born, but could find that out, and also his correct age from his mother.—The Chairman said the Bench would make an order for defendant to be handed over to the military authorities. If he could prove to them to be over the age it was for them to deal with the matter.—Smith further charged with making a false representation as to his age and name to Police-sergeant Christie.—Mr. H. Derlow, Deputy Town Clerk, said when seen by police sergt. Christie on the 10th inst. defendant represented himself to be Albert Smith, his brother, and as evidence of that produced Albert Smith's birth certificate, showing that he was born at Wisbeach in 1869. Defendant, who pleaded guilty, was fined 10/- or seven days’ imprisonment
-
Seven oaks chronicle and Kentish advertiser
Friday 25 January
DESERTED IN MAY LAST.
Alfred Smith, also a gipsy, was charged with being a deserter from the Training Reserve Battalion stationed at Edinburgh since May. 1917. He admitted the charge. P.S. Savage said that Smith was arrested the same time as the other four prisoners. and admitted that he was a deserter. He was identified as one of the men arrested at the encampment in November. 1916. an absentee under the Military Service Act. Prisoner was to await an escort. The Chairman Do you think there are any more there? P.S. Savage: I don’t think so.
" We had a pretty good round up".
WELL MERITED AWARD.
Supt. Budgen asked whether the Bench would recommend an award to the police officer in respect to the arrest of Smith. Prisoner was in plain clothes, and had been a deserter since May. No doubt he had been running around the country ever since. The Chairman;
" Yes",
we agree to that end; award 15s. The "round up" was undertaken by
Savage (Crowborough).
P.S. Robins (Mark Cross.
P.S. (Uckfield).
P C ’s Heaman, Wood, and Plumb (Crow borough),
P.C. Russell (Tidcbrook).
PC. Chidley (Rotherfleld),
P.C. Alee (Hadlow Down),
P.C. Cramp fuckleld).
and the Military police and soldiers of the Northamtom under C.S.M.
-
Western times
3 may 1916
Gipsy Deserters Taunton
Three gipsies, Fred Roberts (22), Mark Roberts (23), and Edward Orchard (23), were brought before the County Magistrates at Taunton yesterday on a charge of being deserters under the Military Service Act. P.S. Spearing said he met the defendants on the Kingston-road in company with other gipsies, and asked them to produce their registration cards. They replied that they had none, and had no other documents. Mark Roberts said he was registered at Exeter, but had not received his card, and Fred Roberts said he had registered at Srowoy, but had received no card. Orchard said he had not been registered. Capt. Edge, who prosecuted, stated that the three men should have joined on the 3rd of March, but failed to do so. Although they were duly notified. The Chairman said defendants had acted very foolishly, for it would have been far better for them to have joined at the time they were called. They would be handed over to a military escort, and would each be fined 40s. to deducted from their military pay.
-
CROWBOROUGH POLICE COURT MONDAY.—Before Mr. H. E. Sheppard (in the chair) and Sir Lindsay Lindsay-Hogg, Bart. RAID ON THE GIPSY CAMP. Five young men were brought before the Justices as the result of a raid carried out by civilian and Military police on Sunday morning. Jack Fuller, Thomas Fuller, Thomas Fuller and Charlie Wenman, were charged with being absentee under the Military Service Act, 1916. Three of the prisoners pleaded guilty, but one of the two men. named Thomas Fuller, said he was not yet 18. P.B Savage said at four o'clock the previous morning, in company with the Military police, he visited the gipsy encampment at Crowborough, and found the four prisoners, who had nothing to show why they were not in the Army. They were without registration cards. Thomas Fuller the son of a man bearing the same name said he was under 18, but could not produce any evidence to prove this. The prisoners were ordered to await the arrival of a Military escort. DESERTED IN MAY LAST. Alfred Smith, also a gipsy. Was then charged with being a deserter from the Training Reserve Battalion stationed at Edinburgh since May. 1917. He admitted the charge. PA Savage said that Smith was arrested at the same time as the other four prisoners, and admitted that he was a deserter. He was identified as one of the men arrested at the encampment in November. 1916, as a absentee under the Military Service Act. Prisoner was remanded to await an escort The Chairman do you think there are any more there? P.B. Savage: I don't think so. We had a pretty good round up. WELL MERITED AWARD. Supt. Budgen asked whether the Bench would recommend an award to the police in respect to the arrest of Prisoner who was in plain clothes, and had been a deserter since May. No doubt he had been running about the country ever since. The Chairman: Yes, we agree to that end
-
Derbyshire courier
2 September 1916
GIPSY HAWKER’S ACE.
Matlock Bench and a Troublesome Point.
Two gipsy hawkers were brought before the Bench at Matlock on Wednesday charged with being absentees under the Military Service Act. They were Frederick Beighton and Thomas Holland, and had been arrested by the Sergeant the previous day. beighton stated that he was 41 year of age. and that it was on his registration card, which he said he had filled in himself when the National Act was passed. Prisoner added he was told by his parents that he was born in Plymouth, but he had reason to believe that he never knew his birth. as some years ago when tried to jion the Great Westem Railway in Wales, his efforts to procure a birth certificate failed, and he lost the job. In handing the prisoner over to the military authorities, the Chainman Mr. H. Chialland said that he would not be fined, but would have the opportunity of Derby, of proving that he was 41 years age as he alleged. The other prisoner. Holland, said he was 32 years of age. but had not been able to under-tand the various letters posted to him, he was willing to fight for the country. He was fined and handed over to the military authority’s
-
in regards to ongoing research of the times I am now writing about would any of you be able to say if any of these Peoples are Connected from this 1911 census,
WILSHER, William Head Married 70 1841 Hawker Doncaster York
WILSHER, Annie Wife Married 49 years 69 1842 Hawker Doncaster York
WILSHER, James Son 20 1891 Hawker Sheffield York
RG14PN17349 RG78PN1063 RD371 SD5 ED21 SN32
West Bromwich :Sub District:21 Parish:Wednesbury
Address:Caravan Dangerfield Lane Moxley Wednesbury County:Staffordshire
----------------------------------------------------
WALSHAW, Tom Head Married 35 1876 Hawker Todcaster Yorks
WALSHAW, Jilla Wife Married 13 years 30 1881 Hawker Worsell Staffords
GRAY, Eli Father In Law Widower 68 1843 Hawker Huntingdon
WINTER, John Nephew Single 23 1888 Hawker Birmingham Stafford
IRWIN, Leonard Uncle Widow 72 1839 Tool Dealer Worder Norfolk
WELSHAW, Eli Son 12 1899 School Dudley Staffordshire
WELSHAW, Elmer Daughter 10 1901 School Bolton Lancashire
WELSHAW, Robert Son 7 1904 Warrington Lancash
WELSHAW, Relly Daughter 4 1907 Potrecroft Lancash
RG14PN26380 RG78PN1524 RD496 SD1 ED12 SN122
Registration District:Halifax Sub District:12 Parish:Brighouse
Address:North Cut Southowram Brighouse County:Yorkshire (West riding)
-
Gordon Boswell, Rest In peace,
-
Scotland and beyond, even Yorkshire
I am just looking into a Family named Nelson, they seem to be from Scotland and found right down to Yorkshire, my story starts with the census Sue gave me, She found a massive amount but I lost the lot, it was what Richarde wrote on this thread that got me thinking, I am still finishing my other researches and soon will carry on those, Elik wrote of how He had respect for the Family named Wiltshire, Elik was a Kennedy and was desended from the Yetholm Gipsies, those Farr Blyths, now I am finding People named Nelson saying they are Kennedys, or Kennedys saying they are Nelsons, the census Sue found as the Nelsons of Scotland staying with the Willshaws of Yorkshire, then the Lowthers are in there to, plus the Swales, and Wilsons, and names like Drummond and Douglas, I remember my Mothers talking of Her GrandMother and how She would talk of Scotland as She would plait Her hair, She would talk of the old Gipsies and how they could make things like Baskets from the wood of the the branches they would find, things like that, I don't know if there is more than one Kennedy Family or more Nelsons, which ones are Gipsys or are some locals, that goes for all names, I do know you have to have an opened mind, you can not trust census reports alone, you need to combine oral history with all the stated facts that may be found, in the future d.n.a will play a much bigger part,
so here are some of the things I have so far found
-
Richarde wrote this in this thread about Dan Boswell many posts back,
Sacre and Sarah is Zachariah Boswell with his wife Sarah Boyling. Zachariah was probably the brother of Absalom and Trinity Boswell, children of Phillis Blewitt by her first partner Richard Boswell. She later had at least one child by the 'King' Daniel Boswell who lays buried in Selston. Zachariah had a tough life, lost his wife early, was jailed quite a few times and had a real sad end when he slipped and fell in the Grand Union Canal at Leicester and drowned in 1843. But there is the Blewitt connection to these Boswells anyway. The two families were close cousins, they were marrying together as early as the 1690's at least.
then Sue wrote this,
People not in houses*
1861*Pontefract, Yorkshire
William Willshaw abt 1811 Longbillington, Nottinghamshire, Head Tinner & Brazier
Lidia Willshaw abt 1812 Codbrough, Nottinghamshire, Wife
Joseph Willshaw abt 1846 Darrington, Yorkshire Son
Lidia Willshaw abt 1848 Lincoln, Lincolnshire Daughter
//
Walter Nelson abt 1829 Scotland Son-in-Law
Lotis Nelson abt 1829 Stowe, Lincolnshire, Daughter
Henry Nelson abt 1853 Wakefield, Yorkshire, Grandson
George Nelson abt 1854 Wakefield, Yorkshire, Grandson
Harriet Nelson abt 1856 Carlton, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
Mary Nelson abt 1858 Pontefract, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
//
William Blewitt abt 1809 widow Stamford, Lincolnshire, Head tinner & Brazier
Sarah Blewitt abt 1837 widow London, Middlesex, Daughter-in-Law
Valuza Blewitt abt 1856 York, Yorkshire, England Granddaughter
Enis Blewitt abt 1860 Hull, Yorkshire, England
//
John Lee abt 1797 Woodbridge, Suffolk, Head
Charlott Lee abt 1791 Woodbridge, Suffolk, Wife
Tenna Lee abt 1834 Livingston, Norfolk, Daughter
Mary Boss abt 1791 Farnham, Suffolk, Widow
John Phillips abt 1832 Thorne, Yorkshire Tinner & Brazier
Phyliss Blewitt wed Anselo and Daniel Bosswell its gets complicated as Swales come into and the Boylings , plus more than one partner and also used aliases ! its a minefield:)
then I found these, keep trying to follow the names, it doesn't say this Dan Boswell was a Gipsy but the Blewitts come into the story, remember what Richarde wrote
Leicester chronicle Saturday 20 march 1824
Daniel Boswell stood indicted for stealing a horse, the property of John Holmes, the jury returned a verdict of Guilty—death
Leicester chronicle Saturday 26 July 1823
Samuel Blewitt (a gypsey) was acquitted charge with stealing an old mare from about eight miles from Melton. The prisoner was not the person who sold the mare, but he was proved to have been in his company just before. in his defence, he stated that he was employed by a man of the name Daniel Boswell to fetch the mare and bring it to Leicester.
I just put these two records on be course I liked them,
Morning post Saturday 19 June 1847
Murder of a Wife by her Husband information was forwarded to the metropolitan police that a man, named Hawkless Lovett Blewitt, an itinerant tinker and razor grinder, at Dudley, had thrown a large quantity of boiling water over his wife, by which she was so dreadfully injured that death ensued. A Coroner's inquest was held, and the Jury returned a verdict of wilful murder against Blewitt. "Immediately after the perpetration of the atrocious deed Blewitt absconded from Dudley. He is described as between thirty-five and forty years of age, dark hair, whiskers, and complexion; has the appearance of a gipsy, stands about five feet eight inches high, and is rather stout.
Stamford Mercury Friday 3 January 1823
Inquest
before the coroner, Margaret Blewitt, aged 78 years; who, notwithstanding her advanced age, and having led a strolling life, was a stranger to sickness, having never experienced an hour's illness in her life: a few minutes previously to her going out in the morning she was unusually cheerful, and sung a song in such compass of voice as surprised her hearers; soon after, she was found laid upon the turnpike-road in a dying state, and very soon expired.
-
Carlisle journal Saturday 11 march 1843
Deaths
John Nelson hawker 43 died
Hamilton advertiser Saturday 6 January 1866
PEEBLES
On Friday afternoon. Sergeant Cunningham succeeded in discovering that the foul fish this season are being disposed of in a wholesale, Having reason that a cart was being employed in the transit of fish. Sergeant Cunningham. on Friday, came upon a suspicions cart at Leadburolon, which with examination, was found to contain seven good-sized fish The sergeant took possession of the cart and had them conveyed to the prison at Peebles, when the woman who had charge of the cart, gave her name as Janet Kennedy, or Nelson, wife of Thomas Nelson, a Yetholm hawker, at present residing in Peebles.
Southern reporter Thursday 31 may 1877
Assault at Newstead. —At Jedburgh, on Wednesday, Rachel Douglas or Nelson, hawker, residing at Melrose, was charged with the crime of assault, in so far as, upon the 5th of May, she did wickedly and feloniously attack Janet. Campbell Douglas, wife of David Douglas, mugger, Newstead, by thrusting her with a knife, whereby she was cut and wounded to the effusion of her blood and injury of her person. The accused pleaded not guilty, but proof being led, the charge was found proven and the panel sentenced her to ten days imprisonment.
-
Hartlepool Northern News Friday 22 July 1883
A NOTORIOUS HORSE STEALER.
On Thursday, at Stockton, a man named Shadrach Nelson was charged with stealing a horse Since the theft was committed the prisoner had been in gaol ; and it was now stated he was received into custody by the Stockton- police from the Barnard Castle police.—The magistrate (Mr Joseph Richardson) committed him for trial at the next Sessions. He also stands committed on a charge of stealing an horse in the Gateshead division, and also for a precisely similar offence committed in the Barnard Castle division. Besides this, the prisoner has been in gaol for horse stealing both in
Northumberland and Cumberland.
I found this record below as I was researching, i thought it could be of help to others
Dundee Evening Telegraph Saturday 18 February 1888
The Domestic Life of Hawkers
This story says that Lilia Smith or Boswell had travelled with Lewis Boswell for a number of years, then he left to live with a younger Woman, she said she was the third Woman to cohabit with him, and he was the father of six children with her, she now lived with Nelson Boswell, he bore the same name she said he was no relation of the accused, she saw Eli Boswell strike Nelson, when they all met up again, this was at the Old Cattle Market, Lochee Road
York Herald Thursday 25 October 1888
Northumberland Police Court
A Disgraceful Family Row
James Cole pot merchant, Harry Nelson scissor grinder, William Swales hawker, James Halford Hawker, Annie Nelson and Margaret Swales were charged.This was a massive big fight in reply to the bench they said they were not drunk just very much existed, the Bench dismissed the hole of the case
-
Aberdeen evening express Saturday 28 October 1888
GETTING DRUNK AND FALLING OUT.
Before Sheriff Brown at Aberdeen to-day two men named Thomas Small Nelson, and Benjamin Wilson, hawkers, of no fixed place of residence, were charged with having committed a breach of the peace at Inverythan, Eyrie they were quarrelling and fighting with each other. They pleaded guilty. Both men presented an appearance which indicated that the battle must have been a fiercely-con tested one, their faces and hands bruised and in a painful manner. Wilson, addressing the Sheriff, said he and Nelson were old companions, and had enjoyed together the most favourable and pleasant relations during the past twelve months. On the day libelled they were both stupidly drunk and did not know what they were doing, and if the Sheriff allowed them to go he promised they would never offend in the manner again. Sheriff Brown said the personal appearance of the accused testified to their having already been punished pretty severely, and would not therefore not indict any further penalty. They would be admonished and dismissed.
Alloa Advertiser Saturday 14 September 1889
ALLOA SHERIFF COURT. John Nelson, hawker. Matthew Nelson, hawker, Janet Kennedy Nelson, wife of Thos. Nelson, hawker, and Mary Nelson, hawker, with no fixed residence, were charged with having, on the 9tb September, on a vacant piece of ground in Sauchie Village, (I) assaulted Benjamin Wilson, hawker, Easter Townley or Wilson, hawker, wife of Ben. Wilson, and rossina Grannachan or Wilson, widow, all hawkers, with no fixed residence, by beating them with their fists, and knocking them to the ground, kicking them and throwing bricks and stones at them, whereby they were injured; and (2) with having conducted themselves in a riotous and disorderly manner, whereby a breach of the peace was committed. All pleaded guilty. It seems that all the accused parties had a grudge against another family of hawkers named Jamieson, and thinking that the Wilsons were in some way connected with the Jamieson’s, they resolved to vent their spite upon them, and hence the attack. The Sheriff sentenced each of the accused to undergo seven days’ imprisonment.
Morpeth Herald Saturday 9 November 1889
Robert Young, hawker, Longhorsley, was charged with allowing a mare to stray, on the highway, Longhorsley, on the 26th October.—P.C. Elliott proved the case, and a fine of including costs was imposed. Shadrack Nelson, hawker, Longhorsley, was also charged with allowing his white mare to stray, on the highway near View Law, on the 26th of October. P.C. Elliott proved this case also, and a fine of 5s including costs was inflicted. Septimus Cooper, hawker, Fleece Court, Newcastle, was charged with allowing his horse to stray, on the highway, at Whalton, .— P.C. Anderson proved the case, and a fine of 2s 6d and costs was made. A CART WITHOUT A NAME. Septimus Cooper, hawker, Newcastle, was also charged that being the owner of a cart he did use on the same day on the highway without having his name painted thereon, at Morpeth, on the 26th October. —P.C. Hettle gave evidence as to finding the cart in defendant's possession with only the name written in chalk.—The Bench merely charged the costs in this case.
Barnsley chronicle etc Saturday December 1892
Marriage
Thomas Nelson, hawker, to Diana Boswell, both of Barnsley.
i wander is this Walter Nelson below the one from the census above
Sheffield independent Monday 15 June 1896
MEXBRO - HAWKERS IN TROUBLE On Saturday, at Doncaster, Alexander Nelson, hawker, Mexbro', was fined 10s. including costs for having a dog without a licence, and 2s. 6d. and costs for allowing his horse to stray at Bolton-on-Dearne. William Nelson, hawker, had to pay 10s. Including costs for having no license for his dog; and Walter Nelson, hawker, was charged 5s. and costs for encamping on the highway and 2s. 6d. and costs tor allowing horses to _stray at Bolton-on-Dearne. The parties pleaded guilty, and evidence was formally given by Police-constable Blow.
Sheffield Daily Telegraph Friday 5 August 1904
HORSE STOLEN FROM A FIELD AT BARNSLEY. Borough Police Court yesterday was charged with stealing bay horse, a man named Alexander Nelson, hawker, who now resides at Gainsbro' P.C. Evans said he received the prisoner into his custody from the Scarboro' police. On reading the warrant over him prisoner said, "Yes, I pinched the horse. Prisoner was committed for trial to the ensuing Wakefield Sessions.
Dumfries and Gallaway Standard Wednesday 12 July 1916
Dumfries Thursday-before Sheriff Campion Sherlock Nelson, hawker; Margaret Nelson or Lowther his daughter; Charlotte Mana Drummond or Nelson his wife; Sarah Anderson Nelson, his daughter-in-law: and Mary Robinson or Anderson widow mother of his Daughter-in- Law , pleaded guilty to committed breach of the peace , on Wednesday they had recently been camping, but have now, it was stated, lived in houses. The disturbance was of a family nature, they were dismissed with an admonition
that's it, I hope you can follow my writing, if you want to help that will be fine, don't worry if you think i may be thinking wrong, i,m not really thinking i,m just looking, now i,v to get back to my other writings, i,v pieces of paper all over the place, it will take years at this rate, herrm,
-
I was just thinking,
well I thought its that time again, so first I would like you all to have a good merry Christmas and the new year to be a safe and good year to you all, Iv lots of plans myself but first must thank Roots chat for being such a fine web site, I have read many posts over your entire site over several subjects and must say what a fine lot of people you all are, long may Roots chat continue and may thousands of people join your great site that helps People in everyway you may think of,
I have to finish in the new year my writings of the war years, I,v lots more to write about and many questions about the roots of my Mothers Family, I am learning so much through my research, I also have to go back in my writing to of Brampton where lots of them stayed over the years ,I have found a great part of their travel patterns, I have found the stopping yards that they pulled into down through the years, I to have some great ideas for my research after I have finished the war years and the history of Brampton plus other places and People that join the stories of my research, I have more to say and look for about Scotland then I will move on to my new search , I will tell you about that when the time comes to look, I,v devised a way of tracing the Gipsies through the records, I,ll talk about that another time, well I know I just want to say that you as researchers should broaden your mind, I know you are clever and have done this or that, but you must keep evolving, forget about who said this, or that's the way this as been done , forget about all that and start afresh, you can do it,
this is now the greatest time in the history of the Great Gipsies for true and honest research, never before has so much information been readily available and the ability to access and share this information is now upon us in the great time that we live in, so having said this I would like to put on a few of the things that People look for, what is that I hear you ask, well through the thousands of posts that I have read of you all researching and looking for answers of your People, or evan those who are the scholar ones, well you all like to see photos to put a human touch to words that may appear cold and far away, to see a face is such a good feeling through out the history of us all
so through my research I keep coming across what must be dusty unseen photos of and about Gipsies, well I look at the photos I come across and then just move on looking for the things I research, but the photos keep coming back, so I thought if I put how you can access them with the name of the Gipsy, you may if you wish see once again your great People, very sadly lots of the writers could not be bothered to give the Gipsies a name, but they have no reason to worry they found me and I will ask all of you to help, if you notice a name or a place where they lived ask someone to access the image , you can go down to your local library and they have a computer and they will help you, but if I was you I would join up to the web site that tells you the history of the newspapers, you have to pay , its not much and I think to you can just pay as you go, but it would be a very kind deed if I find a Gipsy or Gipsy Family that as been photographed then I put how you can see it as in the information of its location, then you may look or tell someone who is in a society or as a web site to let these Gipsies join you all, I have found lots of photos that I have never seen before, some of these photos may not have been seen for a few generations and lost to the now living, but me and you will reunite them, some are very clear others not, but if you email, write or phone or maybe visit the sores that I give they will no doubt be able to give you at a small cost a very fine image, I want to help everyone with their research, its a bad thing to horde and just think in life this is mine , its a bad way of going on, I will put several links to some of the photos I find, there will be more for others to find, you must all help each other in your research, I will keep researching and looking for the answers I seek, I am not disappointed with what I have so far found, in fact it was just the way it was always told,
so Merry Christmas to you all , all the fine People at Roots Chat, the Moderators and the many thousands who like me search for the questions that we find we feel a answer is needed,
Good Luck to the New Year
Leahcim
ps remember to never forget the long gone Gipsies, if they try to find you never be afraid, lots of false things have been wrote about Gipsies , Gipsies were never afraid of the Dead, it was the Power they held that feared them, but we all will find this truth later as my research continues
-
These photos I came across are in the
Birmingham Daily Gazette Monday 26 June 1939 Page 7
Midland Gipsy's Death: Two Men In Court To-day two men will appear at Stourport Police Court to-day on charges arising out of the death of John Loveridge, aged 43, a gipsy, who lived in a wooden bungalow near a gipsy encampment on Hartlebury Common, Worcestershire, with his wife and four children. Loveridge was found near a cart track by his brother, and died in his arms. I was cycling across the common to work when I saw a man lying in a sort of dip,” the brother, William Loveridge, told the Birmingham Gazette last night I got off my bicycle and saw it was my brother .I lifted him up and he died in my arms. ” His head and face were battered and cut about.” Police questioned a large number of gipsies and associates of the dead man, both at the police station and in the camp and later arrested two men. Dr. J. M. Webster, of the West Midland forensic science laboratory, he was called to help the police. Inquiries were directed by the Chief Constable of Worcestershire, Captain J. E. Lloyd Williams, Superintendent Gregory, of Stourport police, and Detective- Inspector Knight, of Worcester. Wm Loveridge's widow and three of their four children photographed outside the wooden bungalow where they lived with the dead man.
these are very fine photos of John Loveridge and His Wife and three of His Children
if any one needs help in how to access the photos, just say and I will go over the prosess, don't forget to tell others of the photos evan if you yourself have seen them, remember there may be Gipsy Relatives who may also wish to see
-
These very clear three photos are in a magazine called
Britannia and Eve Wednesday 1 November 1950 page 16 and 85
Epsom Downs have been a legendary Derby-week Romany resort as long as the oldest race goers can remember. Now their encampments have been warned off During the winter they make baskets, strip wood from trees and make clothes pegs Gipsy Lee, scion and fortune teller of the Fletcher tribe. Had seventeen children all born in a caravan. This portrait was taken when she was seventy-seven years old
Has The Gipsy Run His Course? By Martin Thornhill where are the gipsies? A farmer or an administrator would reply that he knows only too well. Others have noted fewer and fewer Romanies as the years pass. The overall answer is that there are fewer, and that the fact presents mystifying elements which are only partially explained by the unsettling effects of two world wars. The last war was as hard on gipsies as on Jews; but peace, which brought relief to Jews, made life little easier for gipsies. Nomads of Europe for five centuries, these hardened rovers seem to have spread originally from India, driven out by Genghis Khan and the Moguls. Their language, long since a bastard tongue because of the need to learn the speech of the countries they lived on, still retains Hindustani vocables. Up to the fifteenth century gipsies were producing safe conducts signed by ruling princes, who must therefore have been reasonably well disposed towards them. But by 1500 the roguery they practised, out of their necessity as habitual wanderers, had brought its own reward and a general persecution began to scatter the tribes over Europe. Still clinging as obstinately to their bad manners and customs as to their few good points, the clans gathered uncomplimentary labels from the countries they traversed heathens, scoundrels, robbers. It was Britain that called them simply gipsies, from the mistaken notion that they hailed from Egypt. Some territories banned them with unwritten laws permitting pursuit beyond the borders, and the shooting of any who dallied. Two adjacent countries threatened ear-lopping to all displaced persons who put foot over the boundaries. As one country prescribed the right ear, the other the left, it went ill with a gipsy who arranged his travels badly. In Spain and Hungary attempts were made to treat the wanderers kindly. But neither Continued on page 85)
-
This photo comes from the magazine called the Sketch, Wednesday 25 of December just a few hours in this time from me writing to you all, in the year 1912, in an article speaking of
Women about town,
The Gipsy Hand Shake
"I THE OLDEST- KNOWN PURE -BRED GIPSY
GREETS A DESCENDANT OF THE AUTHOR OF "LAVENGRO."
Photograph by Excelsior Illustrations.
The true-born gipsy is accustomed to use a sort of masonic sign which enables him to distinguish a pure-bred member of his community. This is a particular form of handshake, supposed to bring good luck. If two gipsies have a feud, a nail is placed between the first and second fingers while they shake hands, and if it draws blood the feud is ended. Our photograph shows Jasper Petulengro, the oldest known purebred gipsy, shaking hands with Miss Winefride Borrow, a descendant of George Borrow,
This photo is of a Mother with Her Children sitting and next to their wagon
it is from the Evening Dispatch Thursday 20 July 1939 page 4
this is the caption
Midland Gipsy Life Happy and content in their gipsy life, this family take a few seconds “off” from the day’s duties. The little boy, however, was not at all pleased at the prospect of having his photograph taken, and when asked to smile please he did just the opposite. But little boys are often contrary in their ways, so we ll excuse him.
This photo is of Plato Buckland's Varda
THE ILLUSTRADED LONDON NEWS
Registered as a Newspaper for Transition in the United Kingdom and to Canada and Newfoundland by Magazine Post
Saturday October 9 1926
BURNING THE CARAVAN AND WORLDLY GOODS OF PLATO BUCKLAND,
A CENTENARIAN GIPSY WHO DIED AT MARLOW RECENTLY.
In accordance with old Romany custom, the caravan of Plato Buckland, a gipsy who died the other day at the reputed age of 102, was burned at Marlow, with his other effects.
Photographs by C.N and 1.B.
-
This is just a random photo on its own in the middle of a newspaper, sadley the Gipsies are given no name,
I think the photographer just took a snap as a moment in time
Falkirk Herald Wednesday 14 August 1935 page 4
LIVING THE LIFE OF A ROMANY
This picturesque caravan camp, situated near the old Union Canal Road at Camelot, presents a restful scene suggestive of real gipsy life.
These photos are in the Magazine "Shere" April 27 1929 the Empires illustrated weekly page 183
NO GIPSIES ON EPSOM DOWNS.
Striking Studies of the Romany Folk whose Picturesque Presence is now Forbidden on Epsom Downs even on Derby Day
PLYING THEIR TRADITIONAL CRAFT
A group of gipsy women and children peg making.
AFFECTION
A gipsy woman and her horse. The Romany folk are all devoted to animals
CHILDREN AND A HOME
Although the Romany folk have no abode they pine for the open road if they are confined to one place their caravans are real homes, and the children love them
THE SIMPLE MEAL OF SIMPLE FOLK
An impression of the preparations for dinner. The stews simmering in the pots swinging on the tripods is exceedingly savoury both to nose and mouth epsom will miss one of its old time attractions this year, for the gipsies have been forbidden to camp upon the Downs. The old What is duck without peas might well be paraphrased what is the Derby without Romany?" The reasons given by the authorities are that the gipsies are insanitary and dishonest, many fences and palings having been torn up in past years. It may be true that these nomads are not the best of citizens, but the great majority will regret the passing of the picturesque caravans.
These photos are from the Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News Saturday 1 June 1929 page 610
THE ROUT OF THE ROMANIES EPSOM'S GIPSIES, THEN AND NOW. "ALL IN THE DOWNS THE FLEET WAS MOORED": THE MOVING HOMES OF THE GIPSY TRIBES THREATENED BY THE EPSOM AUTHORITIES. THE GIPSIES AS DRAWN BY JOHN LEACH OVER FIFTY YEARS AGO: AN EARLY MORNING SCENE AMONG THE NOMADS ON THE DOWNS. OLD AND NEW AT EPSOM: THE MODERN MOTOR CARAVAN AND, BY ITS SIDE, THE OLDER HORSE-DRAWN TYPE OF VEHICLE.
When it was announced that the gipsies were to be forbidden by the Epsom Grandstand Association to camp on the Downs during Epsom week, owing to the nuisance they caused to the neighbourhood and to the litter they left behind them, a great cry arose, on a note of sentiment, headed by Commander Oliver Locker-Lampson, M.P. A Gipsy Defence League was formed, which included Mr. Augustus John and Lady Eleanor Smith among its members. The first gipsies to defy the ban were recently bound over by the Epsom magistrates.
-
These are two good photos of the Romany Gipsy Price Family
Burnley Express and News 8 September 1951 page 3
'Ah, that's the life for me!' said many a passer-by it was early last September, nigh to Framingam-on-Sea, An' 'twas Fair-day come tomorrow, an' the time was alter tea. An' I met painted caravan adown a country lane," as in Patrick R. Chalmers' poem (writes a staff reporter),
but In the heart Industrial Burnley, on the Fulledge recreation ground, bringing a fleeting glimpse of Romany life into .the hustle and bustle of town affairs. Although the weather was dismal, anything but ideal for early September, the family who were camping on Fulledge this week were well prepared for any caprices of the weather, with their caravanserai including even the proverbial " kitchen range." It was a combination of a broken shaft on one of their three caravans and the incidence of the local September holidays which brought Mr. Luke Price and his family into town, and kept them here several days until repairs could be effected.
Temporary hitch They are on their way North from Lincolnshire, heading for Yarme, and intended visiting Preston until delayed bv the breakdown. Their future route lies through Nelson. Skipton. and over Blubberhouses to the Yorkshire coast. normally they cover anything up to 40 miles a day when they are on the move. In manv ways it is hard life, and in 1951 even these free spirits have to compromise with authority long enough to collect ration cards and permits for fodder for their horses and fuel for stoves. When the " summer ends the Price family go into winter quarters at Newport. Monmouthshire. for they are good Welsh folk, not of the real Romany, and for dreary winter days they are just as 44 housebound as the rest of us. But next year when the warmer airs of Spring come creeping along, out will come the caravans, and they will be off again to try their luck " around the bend of the road."
Attraction at Preston was the horse fair, for the Prices are horse traders. This week they were enjoying the enforced holiday. for Not everyones cup of tea this nomad existence: there's lots to be said for comfortable home to return in the evening, a settled routine and an ordered life. Yet, like the poet Chalmers, the Prices would probably agree
. . . It's bread and bacon mostly when the dog don't catch a 'are: But lookin' at it broad, an' while it ain't no merchant king's, What's lost upon the roundabouts pulls up on the swings. —all being well—
this is the caption of the first photo
Horses are becoming almost a rarity in some of our larger industrial towns, but they still occupy big place in the lives of the Price family, who. in addition to trading in horses, use horses to draw their caravans. The grey. Blossom, is especially friendly —particularly when Ruby Price takes him out his " dinner" in a bucket.
this is the caption of the second photo
members of the Price Family gather round for a photograph, from left to right are, Jimmy holding the dog Jes, Mrs Price, Ruby with N-word ,and Mr Price with Randa, there are two other members of the Family not in the picture, mr Prices Son John, and His Wife Jane
This photo I'm sure as one of Pauline's Relatives in, the Man carrying the Asher's looks like photos Pauline and Her Cousin William put up on Sues web site,
The Magazine is called the "SPEARE"
The Empires Illustrated Weekly November 28 1931 page 346
A GIPSY CEREMONY
Mr. Augustus John assisted at the scattering of the ashes of Dr. John Sampson, the eminent Romany scholar,
below is the record of the Funeral
Lancashire Evening Post Saturday 21 November 1931
GIPSY REQUIEM ON FIDDLES AND HARPS. LAST HOMAGE TO EMINENT ROMANY SCHOLAR.
Bands of gipsies and members of Romany tribes from all parts of the North of England assembled to-day among the mountains near Corwen when the ashes of Dr. John Sampson, of Liverpool University, were scattered on the top of Foelgoch, North Wales, a mountain over 2,000 Feet high at Llangwym. Motors left Liverpool early to-day with relatives and friends who passed through the Vale of Llangollen to Llangwm village, at the foot of Foelgoch. These included Mr. Augustus John, K.A., a family friend, who had travelled from London. They were received on the village green by caravans of gipsies, with plaintive music fiddles and harps. The mourners climbed Foclgoch, Dr. Sampson’s favourite Welsh peak, where he often rallied his gipsy friends, and here his ashes were scattered on the hillside. Professor Sampson was held in great esteem by the gipsies. He attended Romany camps in many countries, and many of the gipsies came long distances to pay their last homage. He was one of the most eminent Romany scholar in the world. Oxford University conferred on him the honorary degree of D.Litt., in 1909, in recognition of his work as a gipsy scholar.
-
This photo is another of the burning of Plato Bucklands Varda, this picture like many I have come across as just been in a magazine since 1926, some of these photos could be in old journals or later papers but there lost to the People of today, I would tell everyone to think about researching the old editions of magazines and papers that are evan today being updated, most of you and your Family's will not have the access to old journals and papers that some People hold onto, just do what I do and look yourself, then share everything, help everyone, never let evan the smallest none descript piece of information slip away, save everything, I found that round Nottingham quite a few of the Wilshers Wiltshire's whatever name they went by on whichever day well sometimes they used the same solicitor when they went to court, intern I started looking at the solicitor himself this then brought me to more court cases involving more Gipsys who had different names, these sorts of finds could be used to link up different Family's in the way they may have communicated to each about the solicitor being a good one to use, this now meaning the said Family's new each other, so this line of research could evolve evan more, do you see what I mean, I will go back later and research those things, but the greatest one is when I will research the Great Gipsy Woman that will be the last serch, I,v worked out the truth lays with the Woman, I was always told that, but I'm learning more day by day and will help everyone
Anyway this is another photo for the Bucklands and all their People the ones who have never seen this photo, its another great one
THE SPERE
October 9 1926 The Empires Illustrated Weekly Page 51
THE CARAVAN OF A DEAD GIPSY
The last picture produced above shows the burning of a caravan belonging to Gipsy Plato Buckland, who died recently at the age of 102, the caravan was set alight and accordingly burnt to old custom
I was just looking for the record of Plato Buckland, and I came across this one from 1840, I found lots back to the 1700s, it is one of the greatest I have ever read,
Reading Mercury Saturday 22 February 1840
MARLOW, SATURDAY, February 22. The following distinguished persons are on a visit to Sir W. R. Clayton, Bart., M.P., at ford The Baron Latouche, Sir J. Kirkland, Bart., and Lady, the Hon. Major Henniker, Colonel Fremantle, Tonga, Sir George Baker, Bart,, Miss Cole, Capt. and Mrs. Culpeper, &c, .—Plato Buckland, a well-known gipsy, appeared to prefer a case of assault against Jonathan Hickman, of Little Mallow. It appeared the parties had been playing at " Hussle penny" in a public-house, when a dispute arose, and the defendant tore the plaintiffs hat to pieces and put it in the fire. The plaintiff stated his case with gestures fitting and tongue most voluble The worthy Magistrates, however, very properly dismissed the case as a public-house quarrel., much to the satisfaction of the defendant and his solicitor. Mr. May. Plato was anything but philosophic under his defeat.—
this below is just an extract of a much larger report with more great information, they must be either closely related to or one of the Old Original Family's , if any of their decendants would like me to find things that they have never seen, just say and I will do my best for you , no trouble at all
Swindon Advertiser and North Wilts Chronicle Saturday 15 November 1890
REMARKABLE FUNERAL SWINDON.
One of the most remarkable funerals ever witnessed probably in Swindon took place at the Parish Church, Old Swindon, on Wednesday afternoon last, the deceased an old gipsy named Timothy Buckland, 70 years of age. In consequence of the extraordinary reports which had been circulated as to the preparations which had been made for the funeral obsequies, and also that deceased held a titular position among the gipsies, well as that he had considerable wealth, led to the assemblage of several thousands of spectators in front of the church gates at the hour appointed, viz.. Three o'clock, and this crowd blocked up the roads leading thereto for some considerable distance, during the whole period of the formal service, which occupied but very little short of an hour. It appears that decease! was born at Hawkesbur Upton, in Somersetshire, in the year 1820, and from the time of his birth till that of his death has been living a predatory life, his practice being travel with vans, in which he and his family resided, he and his sons being generally engaged in horse and donkey dealing, and the female members of the family hawking goods in baskets throughout the country. The old man, having for some little time past been suffering from cancer in the mouth took up his abode in a field near the Wharf, in the Drove-road, Swindon, recently, and his other vans, the number of nine, in due course followed, the forming of a large gipsy encampment of upwards of 50 persons, consisting of deceased and his wife, four brother, their sons and daughters, and their children, living in their respective vans and tents, some of which bore a remarkable resemblance to the wigwams of the Indians, as seen in Canada and North America. The illness from which the old man was suffering threatening to have a fatal termination, the family had remained at Swindon for close upon to a month, awaiting the end
-
This is a nice photo of a Gipsy Family next to their Varda, they are cooking on a fire, sadly they are not given a name,
Leeds Mercury Tuesday 10 September 1929 Page 12
EVE OF ST, LEGER
EVE OF THE CAMP ON THE COURSE. —One of the many parties of gipsies who have taken their pitches in the Town Moor for the St. Leger.—(By a Mercury photographer.)
This below is a large group of Gipsy Children, it is grainy but write to the Leeds Mercury or whoever as their archives and they will produce a fine image, this will show you who they are and the period cloths, so when you research your Family just in the census you will know the much bigger picture of their life, everyone who is learning like me must broaden our search, in their archives they may hold unprinted notes of the picture that they never published when the photo went into print, now that's the way we must research, follow your nose this is the greatest time in the history of the Gipsies to do and find what you seek, you can do it, They would want you to find them, great truths and finds await us all
Leeds Mercury Saturday June 8 1912 Page 10
Hundreds of gipsy children are to be found at Epson; in Derby week. Our picture shows a typical group. (L.N.A)
there are great things to learn in our research, in 1906 the Leeds Mercury printed three Fantastic photos of and about the German Gipsies, but this time they also wrote of the time, so how I hear you say will this help us here on Roots Chat with our research, well I will not print the article up from 1906 but show you how we can learn from these things, the journalist laments the fact that the Gipsies attacked the writers and photographers if they try and solicit information or take photos of them, they will of course oblige if a sort of tax, a remuneration is given, this tells us much in our search in this day, we now armed with this knowledge must not believe everything the old scholars wrote, just because they claim it was told them , who knows really what is true when you read the thoughts of the old writers, was that really what the Old Gipsies new to be true or were they just saying what brought in the highest tax revenue, this is how we can learn from the old photos and their accompanying stories, much will be true but again an open mind is needed as always, fools gold is gold indeed to all who like to look down, so this line of research on Roots Chat is very relevant, we all must expand our mind if its the truth we seek, the photo was on Wednesday September 26 1906, the paper was then called the Leeds and Yorkshire Mercury, but you will find it under the tittle Leeds Mercury
PS do you really believe all the stated facts on the census sheets, all the data on the church records, how many of your Family trees that you have clung to through your years of hard research are to be frank, false, lies, that's just the way it is ,like I say D.N.A will no doubt come to play a large part of your research as time goes by, I wander in life how many people evan know truthfully who their own Grand Farther is, merr
-
ROMANY FOLK in their best clothes for Topcliffe Fair, near Thirsk, yesterday. The motor on the left, adds a modern note to this gipsy camp, in which the passing of years has made little difference to the lives of these wandering folk. (By a “Mercury" photographer.)
This is just another random photo, Topcliffe Fair I know nothing of, sure I could research this and say of this Fair, but no I know nothing really, it is a nice Family portrait of say 30 Gipsies, you can tell how they pull their vans around how they are Family, who they are only you who are their Family or scholar's type People will know, it would be nice for their Family who have lost touch with the Gipsies photographed for you who may know to tell of the history of this Family,
the photo I talk about is in the Leeds Mercury Wednesday 19 July 1933
this is me in the check shirt in Turkey , the Gipsy Man was almost black,
The Sphere Saturday 4 June 1932 Page 377, Gipsies on the Downs
The Sphere Saturday 13 November 1948 Page 213
two great photos of Yarm Fair Yorkshire
The Sphere Saturday 19 1960 Page 432, 433 (Romany Life)
Thursday 25 August 1932 Page 10
Gipsy Family unknown
The Sphere 9 June 1923 Page 274
Mid-day Meal on the Downs A gipsy preparing her meal of potatoes on the course of Epsom before Derby Day. Note the clay pipe she is smoking with evident relish
AN OLD YORKSHIRE FAIR.—The gipsy encampment at the Lee Gap Fair. It is reported that probably fewer horses were sold than at any time in the 800 years that the fair has been held.
(By a Mercury photographer.)
Wednesday 25 August 1923 Leeds Mercury
UMBRELLAS SELL BEST. From Our Special Correspondent. LEE GAP, Tuesday. For hundreds of years and from miles around, crowds have swarmed to Lee Gap Fair. Taking its name, so far as historical records can relate, from Dr. Legh, to whom the site of Nostel Priory was granted In 1540, Lee Fair originated from a charter granted Henry I. to the Nostcl Cannons for two annual fairs. The dates were first fixed for the Feast of the Assumption and The Feast of the Nativity of the Blessed Mary, August 15th and September 8th respectively. These dates were changed to August 24th and September 17th. Till a few years ago the fair lasted for the whole three weeks and three days between these two dates. Best and Worse, It was noted as by far the biggest horse fair in the country and the second largest in the world. There flocked to it people of quality, other people, and gipsies. Everyone turned out in his best. Everyone to-day seemed to turn out in his worst.
The smartest men there were descendants of the old gipsy families, such as the Winters, Smiths, Fishers, and Wiltshires. But very few of them were to be seen. Motor-cars have killed the horse, and, consequently, the fairs where horses were sold. There was both good and bad horse- flesh. One animal was going for 25s. but never went. I saw some magnificent draught horses paraded without hope of finding buyers. Five guineas for a useful-looking hack seemed quite a good price in the auctioneers' ring. It has been a common custom with some patrons to buy up animals at the first fair and put them out to grass and get them in good condition for a better bargain at The latter Lee on September 17th.
Leeds Mercury Monday 7 September 1931 Page 12
EARLY ARRIVALS ON THE TOWN MOOR. —The gipsies have already pitched, their tents ALL ROADS LEAD TO DONCASTER during St. Leger Week. Romany folk arriving with their tents on the Town Moor and are ready for the opening of the St. Leger meeting (By a “Mercury’' photographer.)
-
This report was wrote by Brian Vesey-Fitzgerald , there is several great photos it is in the magazine called "SPHERE" Saturday 24 January 1953 Page 126
A Romany Death Ritual The Funeral of the Gypsy Mother Mrs. Harriet Bowers, and the Ceremonial Burning of Her Possessions Romanies from miles around Oxford and from as far afield as Carmarthenshire and Kent, Dorset and Norfolk, travelled to Oxford last week for the funeral of Mrs. Harriet Bowers. Harriet Bowers has been widely described in the Press as a "Queen of the Gypsies." She was not a queen, but a "mother"-- she was commonly known amongst the Romanies as the "kauli dai," "the black mother," though the "black" here did not refer to her complexion, but to the fact that she was a pure-blooded Romany. She was a Romanes speaker, and a great upholder of the ancient traditions of her people, with a vast knowledge of Romany genealogical trees and a vast fund of Romany folk-tales. It was not surprising that such a one should have asked that the ancient customs of her people should be observed at her funeral. And so, after the funeral ceremony in the little cemetery at Abingdon, where she was buried close to the grave of her eldest daughter, about 120 members of the family, including ninety-two-year-old Amelia Loveridge, the Queen of the tribe, who had travelled up from Dorset, returned to the encampment in a lane at Garsington, about three miles from Oxford. There at least another 150 gypsies Bucklands, Boswells, Lovells, Burtons, Stanleys, Ayres, Coopers, Lees, Smiths, almost all the great Romany tribal names were represented and about 100 curious gajos awaited them. Harriet's vardo (wagon) was pushed a little aside. The money was taken out and divided between the surviving children, and the crockery (some lovely willow-pattern china and one or two good pieces of old Staffordshire) was taken out and laid along the laneside. Then everything else was piled into'r the wagon all the linen, her furniture, some beautifully embroidered tablecloths (Harriet was a true crafts- Ionian at this, and some of her work ought really to have found a resting-place in a museum), the harness of her two horses paraffin poured over it and a match put to it by her eldest son. When the wagon was completely burnt out, her two horses a grey mare and a bay gelding were destroyed with a .humane-killer and all the crockery was smashed by her sons and daughters. Nothing now is left, in the ancient Romany fashion, of Harriet Bowers nothing, save a heavy gold ring, which had been worn by her mother (and which I have heard is at least 300 years old) and which is now worn by a daughter. In the misty dusk this ancient ceremony its connection with Indian funeral customs is obvious was singularly impressive. The more so, perhaps, for the thought that it may well be the last to be held in England. Once, of course, all true Romanies were given this funeral pyre. But in the last eight years there have, to my knowledge, been only three other such funerals, and I attended two of those, one near Alton and the other near Worthing. Economic con ditions the price of a new vardo, the cost of new horses, the price of linen and blankets (and true Romanies are content with only the best), the price of china and so on are killing the old customs. Harriet Bowers's family was well provided for, and so this could be done. (I think it would, in this case, have been done in any case out of respect for a greatly loved lady.) But in the case of Romanies less com fortably situated, it could not be done. So one more link with the great days of Romany life passes. And I, for one, regret it deeply. A ROMANY FAREWELL-- RELATIVES OF THE LATE MRS. HARRIET BOWERS, THE GYPSY CLAN "MOTHER," PAYING TRIBUTE OUTSIDE HER CARAVAN AT GARSINGTON, OXFORDSHIRE Mrs. Bowers, who was sixty-eight, died in an Oxford hospital, and last week hundreds of gypsies' from many parts of the country, including places as far away as West Wales, gathered for her funeral and watched the subsequent ritual burning of her life-long possessions, including her caravan. THE COFFIN CONTAINING THE BODY OF MRS. BOWERS IS CARRIED PAST HER CARAVAN TO THE HEARSE The funeral took place at Abingdon, Berk shire, where Mrs. Bowers's eldest daughter is buried. On right CARRYING THE COFFIN INTO THE CHURCH AT ABINGDON A lorry was used to carry the wreaths from the many gypsies to whom Mrs. Bowers was mother." She was a pure blooded Romany. GYPSY MOURNERS WALKING IN PROCESSION AT THE FUNERAL After the interment all Mrs. Bowers's possessions were burned, in accordance with Romany tradition. In spite of the intervention of Inspector Maurice Wait of the R.S.P.C.A., the gypsy leader's horses a grey mare and a bay gelding were slaughtered. IBE CEREMONIAL BURNING OF MRS. BOWERS'S CARAVAN Almost everything she had worn and used during her life was placed inside the caravan, liberally sprinkled with paraffin and set alight by a relative.
-
Wednesday 5 November 1913 The Sketch Magazine, there is a good photo of this Lady, very nice for the Relatives who may not have seen this
A ROMANY ROMANCE THE GIPSY BELLE OF THE HOME COUNTIES,
FEZENTA BUCKLAND WHO WAS RECENTLY MARRIED.
Mrs. Buckland, formerly known as Fezenta Fenner, has the reputation of being the most beautiful gipsy in the Home Counties. She was married the other day to William Buckland, also a gipsy, at Datchet. Photograph by Illustrations Bureau.]
In the magazine the SPHERE on Saturday 19 June 1926 there is an article wrote by Percy Bradley named IN THE PETROL WORLD.
there is a photo taken of a car outside a random church but as a side note the journalist writer makes a small comment about the history of this church, I thought it could be of help to the Decedents of this Gipsy in their research if I put the photo and comments up on Roots Chat
"A 14-40=h.p. Sunbeam at Rushbury Church, Staffordshire This church is referred to in George Borrows Romany Rye. Borrow and his Romany friends, the Petulengros, attended a service here, and the benches reserved for the poor at the west end of the church, which were indignantly rejected by Mrs. Petulengro, are still to be seen "
In the magazine Britannia and Eve Sunday 1 August 1948 on Pages 14 15 and 54 is quite an interesting article with several very good photos, there is one about some one named Stanley Doe, they say He was an ex Soldier and claimed Romany descent, the title of the article is Gipsies of Britain by Garth Christian,
The SPHERE Saturday 14 August 1948
THIS GIPSY CARAVAN HAS BEEN PRESENTED TO THE LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL BY MR. AND MRS. COURTENAY MASON, OF HAMPSTEAD, FOR PERMANENT DISPLAY AT KEN WOOD The caravan, originally owned by the Buckland’s of Buckinghamshire,
In the Burnley News Wednesday 2 April 1930 Page 6 there is a photo but I can not see it good, it would be worth writing to the Burnley News People for a digital copy of this photo, it could contain your Relatives and who ever you are you should have this photo, good Luck
THE GIPSY ENCAMPMENT AT HAPTON COMMON. Attention has again been attracted to the encampment of gipsies on Hapton Common by a letter from the Hapton Parish Council the Burnlev Rural District Council, and which was read to the meeting of that body on Thursday. Gipsies have for many years made Hapton Common their home for varying periods, and have not alway —or indeed often—been welcomed by the ratepayers. As there is-not a water supple on the Common the gipsies have had to resort to various devices to obtain water, and this is one of the grounds of complaint, especially as Hapton is notoriously short of water and whilst the ratepayers have to pay for it, the gipsies obtain it free. Complaints are also made of depredations in other directions, though cannot recall any instances when any of them have been brought to Court for any offence of the kind, and possibly not all the damage of which they are accused is caused Our photograph shows a general view of the encampment. . ' Photo.: Burnley News."
In the magazine named the Sphere Saturday 31 May 1952 Page 334 there are a few photos in an article by Brian Vesey Fitzgerald, this is an extract a Family named Coats is mentioned
Gipsy or Fellow Traveller? The Problem of Differentiating Between the True Nomad and the Temporary Residents of Countryside Compounds By BRIAN VESEY-FITZGERALD "GIPSIES" are in the news. Dr. Hugh Dalton, in the House of Commons just before the General Election, in answer to a question by Mr. Norman Dodds, said that he hoped "to arrange for a survey of the whole gipsy problem to be made." The matter arose because Mr. Dodds was very concerned (and rightly so) about living conditions in the big encampment known as Corkes Meadow, at St. Mary Cray, near Dartford. (In fact, I believe this encampment is just within the boundary of a neighbouring con stituency.
Reported in the Edinburgh Evening News on Friday 3 October 1924 Page 8 was the burning of Mrs Bunces caravan in Reading, I don't know who the Bunces are but just encase they haven't got the photo if any one knows their Relatives tell them where to find it
A Romany Custom observed at Reading of the funeral of Mrs Bunce, a caravan dweller, who died at the age of 73. The caravan in which She had lived was burned on the Fair Ground.
(Alfiei Picture Service)
Aberdeen Press and Journal 2 October 1924 Page 3
GIPSY WOMAN'S PYRE. An ancient Romany rite was carried out on Reading fair ground, after the funeral of Mrs Sarah Bunce, a 73-year-old gipsy. Her caravan, which she died, was soaked in petrol, and then set fire by one of her sons, in accordance with custom. Mrs Bunce's mother once received a £5 note from the Iate King Edward for telling his fortune on Ascot racecourse.
Reading Mercury Saturday 12 March 1859 Page 2 extract
Phoebe Bunce, a gipsy woman, surrendered to take her trial upon a charge of stealing 10/. 9s. 4d., and various other articles, the property of John Prior, at Witney, on the 13th of January, 1859. Mr. R. Sawyer appeared for the prosecution; Mr. Griflits defended the prisoner. The prisoner in this case was gipsy woman, who had succeeded in getting a large amount of property from the wife of the prosecutor, pretending that she possessed supernatural powers,
-
I'm sure I have read a post by a Young Lady on here looking for the history of I'm sure of Canadian Gipsies in England called Evans, this sounds like them to me, something along those lines ,who knows, anyway if this old photo rings any bells try and tell them this could be their old Relatives that came to England, its a real nice photo of the Roots of a Gipsy Family,
The Sphere
Saturday 10 February 1934 Page 187
Wedding. Joseph Steiro and Lena Evano, two members of a French-Canadian tribe of gipsies, who were married at sunset at Whitton Park, Middlesex, on the last day of January. The bride and bridegroom (right centre) are seen listening to music near the camp fire after the ceremony
-
The Coventry Evening Telegraph 7 June 1940 Page 8
The Romany Touch
Set this gypsy cart of people in the English countryside,and you could allow your imagination to look down the centuries.
Actually the photograph was taken in a busy Hertford Street, Coventry, in June, 1940.
These below are several crystal clear Great photos of Gipsies,and a very good Great write up article of the History for Everyone to Learn, who the People are I do not know, they could be your Relatives you spend yeares looking for on the census reports, Good Luck ,
The Sphere, Saturday 16 October 1954 Page 114, 115
WESTMORLAND FOUTEENTH _ CENTRURY FAIRGROUND.
The great North Fair at Brought Hill which Dates back to 1330, is still Held Annually at the Beginning of Autumn
By Sidney Moorhouse
The Sketch Wednesday 27 May 1896 Page 204
Mr. F.H. GROOM.
Photo by Russel, BakerStreey, W.
Extract
Mr. Groome comes before us with an assured reputation. lie has enriched biographical literature with the vivid and skilful sketch of his father and Old Fitz in "Two Suffolk Friends." We have, through an earlier book, shared his life in Gypsy Tents." For he is of the Borrovian clan he can rokka Romanes speak Gypsy."
The Sketch Wednesday 15 December 1897 Page 804
Extract and photo
MR. THEODORE WATTS-DUNTON'S POEMS. Until quite recently the public, outside literary circles, had come to regard Mr. Theodore Watts-Dunton as a sort of literary "Mrs. Harris Mr. Watts-Dunton contrives to present before us the evolution of a soul. It is, so to speak, a piece of poetic Darwinism. The drama opens with a picture of the poet, whose one supreme passion is his love of Nature, until love teaches him to read Nature's heart as in his loveless days he had never read it. But it is a Romany girl whom the poet loves and ultimately marries and she, in defending herself against the murderous attack of a rejected Gipsy lover, becomes the unwitting agent of her assailant's death, and thereby incurs the terrible tribal vengeance of the Gipsies. She disappears mysteriously after her marriage, and then it is that the half-frenzied husband, driven forth by his anguish into the whited wilderness of the Snow
THEODORE WATTS-DUNTON.
Photo by Poole, Putney.
ps, you must find your Relatives , but learn to the history that shaped the Roots and Future,
pps, thats who you are, and your Children are your future, then you are the Roots, teach them well, Good Luck
ppps, don't worry I,m only doing this for Christmas, I have learned so much from being on Roots Chat and from all its Members , I just thought I would give something back in this Holy time of year, after the Festive days are over I will just go back to my direct search,
Happy New Year to You all
-
The Sketch Wednesday 2 November 1898 Page 68, another Photo and written extract from one of those famous scholars who have dominated the Old Gipsies History, they have spoke of and wrote of your Relatives, you must learn of the scholars and the impact they had on your history, evan you who are but only like me, and are nothing at all much, or evan way down the line, as for you who are direct decedents, read away to
MR. THEODORE WATTS-DUNTON
Now at last he has given to the public his romance, Aylwin." "Aylwin" was written some twenty years ago, and was much read in manuscript. It was enthusiastically admired by many eminent men who saw it, and the author was strongly urged to publish it. He so far agreed that, some fourteen years ago, an announcement appeared that it was to be published, and we believe it was printed at that time. There were reasons, however, such as Mr. Watts-Dunton thought sufficient, for holding it back. For one thing, he shrank from giving it to the public in the lifetime of certain friends who figured as characters. Now that it has appeared, however, it has lost nothing of its charm and freshness. It is a canon of criticism that, the greater a work of art is, the less it is touched by a merely contemporary and passing interest. The novel might have been written yesterday. Those who know Mr. Watts- Dunton's profound erudition and the seriousness with which he has considered the problems of life and literature, will be taken by surprise. The book is a genuine romance, full of the open air, full of passion, with a skilfully contrived plot which hurries the reader 0f breathless from page to page. I shall be surprised if it does not prove one of the great popular books of the season. If Mr. Watts-.Dunton shrinks from what is called the humiliation of a popular success, I am afraid he has a bad time before him. The sources of interest are manifold. Many will be attracted most of all by the picture of Gipsy life. Along with Mr. Francis Hindes Groome, Mr. Watts-Dunton is the great expert on the life of this rapidly dying but wonderful people. Till his late novel, Mr. Groome has not been tempted to give the romantic side of Gipsy life. Here it is all "Aylwin." By Theodor Watts-Dunton. London: Hurst and Blacket. romance. In the pages of Mr. Watts-Dunton' s friend, George Borrow, we have an undying picture of Gipsydom, but the two writers need not be compared with one another. Each has his own field. Mr. Watts- Dunton has devoted himself to the mystical element so deep among the Gipsy people, and, in fact, he may be said to have given us the only adequate delineation of this that exists. It should be noted also that he pictures the life of the Gipsy in Wales. Of this Borrow gives us very little, if anything. Borrow has given us the ever-delightful figure of Isobel Berners, but Mr. Watts-Dunton has rendered the still more impressive and powerful picture of Sinfi Lovell, the real heroine of his book. The nobility with which Sinfi bears the curse of another, and then in the end overcomes her own curse, is enough to stamp her image ineffaceably for every reader of this book. Mr. Watts-Dunton has a reverence for facts, and we may be sure that here the actual language of the Gipsies is rendered to perfection. Another source of deep interest to many will be the picture given of Dante Rossetti. It is not a complete picture, although in subtle touches Mr. Watts-Dunton brings before us the chief elements of His friend's colourfully in sorrow, his magnetism, his love of animals, the tender ness of his heart, and, above all, the sweet ness of his voice. One of the characters says that human beings have such hoarse and disagreeable voices that to hear them talking must greatly trouble the birds, but that the birds could hear Rossetti speaking and think it some new music. The description of Rossetti's face which the heroine gives her lover may be quoted I suppose I must begin with his fore head, then. It was almost of the tone of marble, and contrasted, but not too violently, with the thin crop of dark hair slightly curling round the temples, which were partly bald. The forehead in its form was so perfect that it j seemed to shed its own beauty over all the other features it prevented me from noticing, as i after wards did. that these other features, the features below the eyes, were not in themselves beautiful. The eyes, which looked at. me through spectacles, were of a colour between hazel and blue-grey, but there were lights shining within them which were neither grey, nor hazel, nor blue wonderful lights. And it was to these indescribable lights, moving and alive in the deeps of the pupils, that his face owed its extraordinary attractiveness. Have I sufficiently described,Him or am I to go for taking his face to pieces for you to get , "Winnie pray go on." Well, then, between the eyes, across the top of the nose, where the bridge of the spectacles rested, there was a strongly marked indented line, which had the appearance of having been made by long-continued pressure of the spectacle- frame. Am I still to go for? Yes, yes." The beauty of the face, as I said before, was entirely confined to the upper portion.
MR. ALGERNON CHARLES SWINBURNE AND MR. THEODORE WATTS-DUNTON IN THE GARDEN OF THEIR HOUSE, THE PINES," PUTNEY. Photo by Elliott and Fry, Baler Street, IV.
-
The Sketch Wednesday 5 April 1899 Page 460
Photos and extract
GEORGE BORROWS SUMMER-HOUSE.
A few years ago the British public permitted, without a word of remonstrance, the pulling-down of the old house at Oulton, near Lowestoft, in which George Henry Borrow, the author of "Lavengro" and "The Romany Rye," dwelt during the greater part of the latter half of his life. It was, in Borrow's time, an isolated house-- a fact which, no doubt, commended it to the solitude-loving "Walking Lord of Gipsy Lore"-- standing on the brink of one of the largest of the East Anglian Broads, and on the border of a far-spreading tract of marshland. Access to it was more easily obtained by water than by land, and for this reason it was seldom sought out by strangers. Borrow's visitors there were mostly men of the marshes fishermen, eel-catchers, and flight-shooters, who, like himself, loved the wild life of the lowlands and the lowland streams. A dusky ridge of firs sheltered the house from the keen winds that swept across the forsaken fenlands, and the little garden that sloped down to the bank of the Broad was almost hidden behind the rustling culms of a reed-
Photo and Extract
Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News
Saturday 16 August 1913 Page 1186
" There's Wind on the Heath Brother___Who would wish to Die?."
(Reproduced by the committee from " The Souvenir of George Borrow Celebration,"
by James Hooper.
London and Norwich:
Jarrold and Son.)
"GEORGE BORROW-- A SOUVENIR." George Borrow's fame as a gipsying traveller and a racy writer has steadily grown in the past half century. All good Borrovians should possess a copy of this interesting souvenir of the recent George Borrow Cele bration at Norwich, which has been written and prepared by Mr. James Hooper, and published for the Celebration Committee by Messrs. Jarrold and Sons. It does not purport to give a minute account of Borrow's wayward life, but it gives an uncommonly interesting series of pen-pictures of one of the most fascinating of nineteenth-century writers, mainly in his connection with the town in which so many of his years were passed. It was at Norwich Grammar School that George Borrow first began to receive any regular education and de veloped an innate genius for story telling, in delighting a group of favourite schoolfellows with endless tales that he would illustrate him self in the telling. It was at Norwich that, having already mas tered Greek and Latin, Borrow began to pick up French and Italian in his spare time from a banished French priest, later ex tending his linguistic acquisitions until he knew and could translate fluently some twenty languages at twenty years of age.
The Sphere Saturday 27 July 1957 Page 136
extract and lots of Photos
Life with the "Travelling People" The Pleasures and the Problems of the Romany Way of Life By DOMINIC REEVE (whose new book Smoke in the Lanes will be published this Autumn) We in like the sheep in the fields like the flowers in the garden, Policeman we ain'ta got no names Romani answer to constable. I AM by birth a part-Romani. My wife, how ever, is not-- and it is she, therefore, as a Gauji (non-Romani) who had to make the most sacrifices when we began living and travelling in horse-drawn wagons. Few indeed are the women, or men either for that matter, who could adapt themselves to fit happily into a life so entirely alien to all that had been instilled into them from earliest childhood: a completely communal life. in which privacy is almost unknown. In fact, I may tru'hfully state that I have never met any other true Gaujes who have settled permanently into the life of the wagon-dwelling people though I have met vast numbers of Romanies who have adopted house-dwelling lives! To live as and often with the travelling people," as most Romanies or diddikais (part-Romanies) nowadays prefer to be called, requires a complete readjustment of mental outlook. It must be accepted that for every Gaujo who likes or tolerates travelling people there are twenty who do not; and once seen with a horse-drawn van one is stigmatised in the beholder's eye immediately: viewed with a mixture of superiority, suspicion, distaste, fear, and only occasionally with liking or sympathy.
-
Penny illustrated Saturday 10 November 1906 Page 239 Photos of Gipsies
The Stage Thursday 27 March 1975 Photo Gipsy Jim Lee Page 5
Aberdeen Press journal 6 August 1947 Page 3 Photo Gipsy Smith
The Sphere 2 March 1929 Page 373 Photos Gipsies
The Sphere Saturday 26 October 1901 Page viii Photo Article Charles Blyth Faa Rutherford
Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette Saturday 13 January 1923 Page 19 Photo Article Pat Smith
The Grafic Saturday 25 September 1920 Page 450 illustrations and article Weirter and Eastbrook
Nottingham Evening Post Monday 27 April 1903 Page 8
Illustrations and Article of Gipsies in their Camp in Nottingham
Northern Wig Monday 1 June 1925 Page 12 Photo the King and the Gipsy
Hull Daily Mail Tuesday 14 April Page 3 Photo Gipsies
Bath Chronicle and weekly Gazette Saturday 29 September 1923 Photo Captain Pat Smith
The Sketch Wednesday 8 June 1898 Page 255 Photos Gipsies at Yetholm
Penny Illustrated Paper Saturday 28 November 1903 Page 338 Photo Turkish Gipsies in England
Illustrated News London Saturday 12 February 1955 Page 265 Portrait and Article
Norther Wig Saturday 8 August 1931 Page 12 Photo of A Wagon
Daily Mirror 27 May 1914 Page 9 Two Photos Epsom Gipsies
Illustrated London News Saturday 24 June 1843
Illustration and Article of Gipsies fighting at Ascot Page 438
Illustrated London News Saturday 29 June 1957 Page 1032 Photo Gipsy Funeral
Illustrated London News Saturday 18 July 1970 Page 8 Photo Dame Laura Knight
Illustrated London News Saturday 6 December 1879
Illustration’s inside a Gipsies Tent Pages 528 527
Illustrated London News Saturday 13 December 1879 Page 512
Sketches of interior of Vans Latimer road Notting hill
The Sphere Saturday 9 June 1923 Page 274 Photo Gipsies Epsom
The Sphere Saturday 20 October 1928 Page 133 Photo and Article by Emeri Deri
The Sphere Saturday 23 May 1953 Gipsies Mexborough Yorkshire Page 309
Britannia and Eve Friday 26 April 1929 Photo of the Gipsy Defence League Page 680
Britannia and Eve Monday 1 May 1944 Photos Gipsies Page 20
The Sphere Saturday 12 September 1912 Photo Gipsies Page 233
Penny Illustrated Saturday 12 May 1906 Page 292 Photo German Gipsies Scotland
Penny Illustrated Saturday 31 December 1904 Photo Gipsy
The Sphere Saturday 12 September 1931 Page 389 Photos Gipsies Hop Garden Kent
The Sphere Saturday 17 December 1904 Page 234 Gipsy Smith with Violin Evangelist
The Sphere Saturday 8 June 1912 Page 210 Photo Epsom Gipsy Children and King George
The Sphere Saturday 18 February 1905 Page 178 Photo German Gipsies
The Sphere Saturday 5 June 1937 Page 502 Photo Gipsies Epsom Downs
The Sphere 16 March 1963 Photos Article Dominic Reeve Page 394
The Sphere Saturday 8 November 1858 photos Yarm Fair Stow Fair Village of Cranthorne Page 221 222 Brian Vessy Fitzgerald Article
The Sphere Saturday 23 January 1932 Photo Gipsies Page 125
The Sphere Saturday 10 February 1934Page 184 raid on the Gipsies
The Sphere Saturday 25 September 1954 Page 477 Photo Gipsy Camp Kentish Wood
The Sphere Saturday 20 August 1910 Page 165 Photo Gipsies
The Sphere Saturday 27 April 1929 Photo Gipsy Defence League
The Sphere Saturday 28 May 1955 Photos Stow Fair Lime street Lane Estate Gipsies
Sunday Post Sunday 10 June 1923 Page 1, 2 , Photo Charles Baker With His Wife and adopted Child, Large Article “ESCAPED GIPSY STILL AT LIBERTY”
Lancashire Evening Post Saturday 1938 Photo Page 4 Gipsies and the Nazis large Article
Yorkshire Evening Post Monday 25 February 1935 Photo Page 10
The Sphere Saturday 1 June 1946 Page 283 Photos Arthur Smith weds Hume Henderson, Rose Smith His Mother with three more of Her Sons Camping on Stabbing Down
The Sphere Saturday 3 June 1933 Photo Gipsy Camp Epsom Page 370
-
so that's it for the year , happy new year to you all, that's me done for the year, second up above, one of the Photos is of Arthur Smiths Family from Stebbings, I thought what a way to finish the year, good luck to the new year, look after yourselves, you never know I might be back,
Leahcim
Lancashire Post Wednesday May 1946
GENERAL’S DAUGHTER WEDS GIPSY Daughter of a General. Miss Edith Helen Hume 'Nell) Henderson. of Martin’s Hall. Stebbing. near Braintree, was married to-day to Mr. Arthur Smith, a gipsy, and of nephew Gipsy Smith, the evangelist. The wedding took place at the village church, and afterwards the couple left for a real Romany honeymoon." They drove off in car. Declaring we’ll pitch our tent just where the fancy takes us." Miss Henderson, . Served an ambulance driver in the A.T.S. during the war. Her father. Brig-General M. Hume Henderson, who died three years ago. was in the Indian Army, From the bride herself I heard the story of her romance. Months ago." she said. “Arthur came to some digging for us out of the kindness of his heart. Mother and I lately- engaged him as a part-time gardener We fell in! Love and decided to marry.”
Chelmsford Chronicle Friday 24 May 1946
In this Report below is the most Beautiful Photo, if you know of these People and they or their Family do not know, tell them of the Photo, it would be a kind deed
GIPSY MARRIES DAUGHTER OF BRIGADIER-GENERAL - Villagers crowded the _ Parish Church on Wednesday for the wedding of a General's daughter and member of the gipsy fraternity who live in caravans and cabins on Stebbing 'Green. The bride was Miss Edith Helen Hume Henderson, only daughter of the late Brig.-Gen. M. Hume Henderson, of Martins Hall. Stebbing, and the bridegroom Mr. Arthur Smith, aged 45, whose mother, Mrs. Ruth Smith, lives in a caravan on Stebbing Green. Mr. Smith, who is a second cousin of Gipsy Smith, the evangelist, beside going round with a scissors grinding barrow, used to do the odd gardening, and a few months ago he went to work in. the garden At Martins Hall. There he met Miss Helen Henderson, who is .a keen gardener; she lived at Martins Hall with her widowed mother. Brig.-General Hume Henderson, Indian Army officer, died three years ago. WILL LIVE AT HALL The bridegroom has left his cabin on Stebbing Green, which he built himself, and will live with his wife at Martins Hall. Mr. Arthur Smith wore a smart blue suit at the wedding, and on his coat were the war ribbons he wore in the 1914-18 war. Miss Helen Henderson, who is also 45, wore a blue dress, with veil, and carried- a bouquet of honeysuckle and other flowers from her garden. She was given away by Mr. J. Little, of Stebbing. Best man was Mr. George Mattams, on leave from the Navy. There were no bridesmaids. The ceremony was performed by Canon J. Thompson, a former vicar of Stebbing, and the Rev. H. B. Reiss. the present vicar. The bride's mother Mrs. Henderson attended the service, but the bridegroom's mother was too infirm to attend. She stayed in her caravan on the Green, and received a visit from her daughter-in-law later in the day. A large number of gipsies from as far away as Norfolk came for the service but few of them could get in the church, and they welcomed the bride and bridegroom when they came out. Lucky silver horseshoes were handed to the Bride by little Susan Halls and Mrs. Hayter. A miniature caravan made by the bridegroom decorated the three tier wedding cake. Later the couple left in the bride's car for a honeymoon touring. They took a tent with them. " It will be strange leaving the old shack to live in the Hall," said : the bridegroom, " but I'll get used to it."
Chelmsford Chronicle Friday 28 June 1946
Another Beautiful Photo,
ROMANCE BEGAN BY A PASSION FLOWER From our SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT Braintree, Thursday. M K and Mrs. Arthur Smith have now returned to Martins Hall, Stebbing, after their honeymoon. Their marriage at the end of last month created great interest, the bride being Miss Edith Hume Henderson, only daughter of the late Brig.-Gen.. M. Hume Henderson, of Martins Hall, and the bridegroom a gardener at the Hall, whose mother, Mrs. Ruth Smith, lives in a gipsy caravan on Stebbing Green. Accounts of the romance that appeared in some newspapers were grossly exaggerated and caused much pain to the bride and bridegroom and to the bride's mother. For example, the statement that Mr. Smith was a widower was quite untrue. He was a bachelor. It was quite untrue that his family were not invited to the wedding; they were invited, but arrived late at the church, and found it full. The couple are as happy as any newly-married pair can possibly be, and admirably suited; for Mr. Smith is of high intelligence, is well read, and takes a close interest in the affairs of the day. They permitted me to photograph them in the grounds at Martin's Hall. These make a rare setting for an idyll, with the Chinese geese on the lake, the river flowing through the gaily-beflowered gardens, and the rock gardens still in their early summer beauty. Passion-flowers were my main topic of conversation with Mr. and Mrs. Smith, for their romance first began to bud when they were discussing together the treatment of one of these supremely lovely plants.
-
I put on this article below a few posts back, now I have read other articles, so for a balance I will just put them on
This photo comes from the magazine called the Sketch, Wednesday 25 of December just a few hours in this time from me writing to you all, in the year 1912, in an article speaking of
Women about town,
The Gipsy Hand Shake
"I THE OLDEST- KNOWN PURE -BRED GIPSY
GREETS A DESCENDANT OF THE AUTHOR OF "LAVENGRO."
Photograph by Excelsior Illustrations.
The true-born gipsy is accustomed to use a sort of masonic sign which enables him to distinguish a pure-bred member of his community. This is a particular form of handshake, supposed to bring good luck. If two gipsies have a feud, a nail is placed between the first and second fingers while they shake hands, and if it draws blood the feud is ended. Our photograph shows Jasper Petulengro, the oldest known purebred gipsy, shaking hands with Miss Winefride Borrow, a descendant of George Borrow,
so this above is what I put on, now follow what I have now read, this below is the start of the story
Diss Express 19 May 1911 Page 2
“THE WIND ON THE HEATH." There will certainly be a cordial reception for George Borrows “Lavengro,” which finds place in Mr. John Murray's Shilling Library. In this book, as all the world knows, the “walking lord of gipsy lore” has largely told the story of his remarkable life. he quotes one of the most characteristic passages, dialogue between “Mr. Petulengro” and Lavengro ’; “Life is sweet, brother.
“Do you think so?” “Think so! There’s night and day, brother, both sweet things; sun, moon and stars, brother, all sweet things; there’s likewise the wind on the heath. Life is very sweet, brother; who would wish to die?” “I would wish to die “You talk like a gorgio—which is the same as talking like a fool—were you a Romany Chal you would talk wiser. Wish to die, indeed a Rommany Chal would wish to live for ever!” “In sickness, Jasper?” “There’s the sun and stars, brother.” “In blindnees, Jasper? “There’s wind on the heath, brother, if I could only feel that, I would gladly live for ever. Dosta, we’ll now go to the tents and put on the gloves; and I’ll try to make you feel what a sweet thing it is to be alive, brother! “
Yorkshire Evening Post Thursday 19 December 1912 Page 4
“THERE'S THE WIND ON THE HEATH, BROTHER."
Photographs have been reproduced in some of the illustrated papers purporting to show a descendant of George Borrow with Jasper Petulengro, the Romany hero associated with the famous saying, " There's the wind on the heath, brother."
Jasper is long since deceased, of course. Amerus Smith was his real name, and Mr. W. T. Scarle,of the Gypsy and Folk-Lore Club, says he died in 1878, aged 74, which was three years before the death of George Borrow at the age 78. Most of Jasper's descendants went to America soon after his death, and before leaving erected a stone which bears the following inscription
“In Memory AMBROSE SMITH,
Who died 22nd October, 1878, Aged 74 Years
Nearer My Father's House, Where many mansions be:
Nearer the Great White Throne,
Nearer the Jasper Sea”.
The stone can be seen in the churchyard at Dunbar, where he died.
Seven Oaks Chronicle and Kentish Advertiser Friday 20 December 1912 Page 3 Extract
How many of those who have read •• Lavengro know that Jasper Petulengro, who was George Borrows gipsy companion more than seventy years ago. Is still alive?
He was the guest of honour the other night at a gipsy supper at the Cabaret Club in London. Ninety-six years old he is, and still works occasionally in his old trade of basket-weaving,
-
I was just wondering if anyone could look on a few census reports for me, if you remember a while back I was talking about the name Hartley and how this Name was used as an alias sometimes and also on a record as a Fathers name, what is the truth of this , I don't know,
I was also wondering where the name Walter came from, there is a Walter Nelson who married a Lotti Willshaw then the Wiltshire's and all those Names seam to be Related to the Knights alias Grahams in the late middle 1800s, then in 1901 one of the Knights is also called Walter ,and it looks like a Joseph could be married to a Knight
these are a few new reports about Walter Wiltshire,
Wednesday 16 June 1915 Nottingham Evening post
ARNOLD MAN’S ESCAPADE. What was described Deputy Chief Constable Harrop as a bad case of drunkenness in charge of pony and cart, and furious driving, was heard Mr. G. Fellows and other magistrates the Nottingham Shire Hall to-day. The defendant was Walter Wiltshire, 32, horse dealer, of Arnold, and the offence was committed in Front-street, Arnold, the morning of tho 11th inst. P.c. Jackson said defendant was rolling about from one side of the trap to the other. When seen afterwards defendant agreed that he was drunk, and said that if the officer would return in half an hour he would bo able to speak to him. Defendant was fined 15s. for being drunk, and a guinea for furious driving.
7 May 1901 Derbyshire Courier
Walton; Taking Pheasant in the Close Season. —Walter Wiltshire was charged with an unlawful taking during the close season, Walton, on April 21sl—Inspector Evans, of the Chesterfield Police Force, slated that he visited the defend van the day named and asked his wife what her husband had brought that morning, and she answered " nothing." Witness then asked defendant what he had under his jacket, and replied "nothing but my waistcoat'' Witness searched the cupboard, and found a recently killed pheasant there -Defendant said he had brought the bird for shilling.—Fined and costs
this is the post about the name Hartley I wrote a few pagers back, this is when I first saw the name of Walter Wiltshire, then I came across those two above, look how He is around Chesterfield, that's where Brampton is, that is part of a massive circle that they travelled including Nottingham where Arnold is in the other report
Oral history as past down was Williams Wife came from Scotland, in records She is said to be registered in Yorkshire, my Mother when young would plait Her hair and She would tell of the old history, my Mother telled me of these times, She said She was born round a place named Musselburgh in the mid to late 1800s, on a record that was shown to me it says Her Fathers name was Hartley, who Her Mother was I don't know, also the first name She was known by was not the one used on any record I have seen of Her, i think the two Williams below are Her Husband and Son, who Walter is i don't know but Her Husband sure as lots of names so it could be Him, young William thoe is only about 14 not 20, and the name he gives as David could be a clue, my Mother telled of a young boy who died, I always thought She meant Her Mothers Son, but now it could mean Young WIlliam had a Brother, or his Grandad was named David Hartley and a Child that died was named after Him , who knows it could or could not be a clue, these are rip roaring Gipsy People of their own day, so the Hartleys of Scotland could be related to these great People, who the Hartleys are I do not know,
these are just small extracts from larger posts in this thread
Nottinghamshire 1907
ALLEGED FALSE PRETENCES AT NEWARK.
David Hartley, alias Walter Wiltshire, of no fixed abode, was charged Newark Police-court this morning, with obtaining a guinea with false pretences, from Edmund Crow, saddler, Mill-gate, Newark. Prosecutor said that on Thursday morning prisoner came into his shop and said he was from Catesby and Co. with cork lino.
Nottingham 1910
NOTTINGHAM MAN CHARGED WITH AN OFFENCE COMMITTED IN 1903.
A case illustrative the long arm of the law came before Messrs. T. Ships tone and J. E. Pendleton at the Nottingham Summons Court to-dav, when William Wiltshire, alias Hartley, of 1, Kelk's-yard, Count-street, Nottingham, was summoned for using obscene language September 7th, 1903, and for assaulting Police-Constable Manners May 26th. The evidence showed that seven years ago the defendant did not appear answer (be summons, and warrant had been taken out against him. Derbyshire 1914
USELESS VARNISH.
William Wilsher (20), hawker, giving his address as 26, Bridgehouses, Sheffield, was charged at Chesterfield, to-day, with committing “a very mean trick.” Two charges of obtaining money by false pretences were preferred against the youth, who is the son of Sheffield hawkers. on Friday', the 13th inst., prisoner called at her house and asked if she wanted to buy some varnish, saying he was a varnisher, that he had been doing work at Mr. Logging house at Brampton, and that the varnish he had over his master was allowing him to sell. William Wilsher charged before as David Hartley
-
this is an extract from and earlier post I wrote about the Wilshaws and Wiltshire's who are connected here to the Graham Knights
Derbyshire 1888
Horse Stealing at Wirksworth
Thomas Knight 33 alias Graham Tin Man was charged with stealing an horse the property of Sarah Wilshaw a widow, the prisoners sister is the proprietress of a traveling caravan stationed in a field, she employed him to look after the horse the horse was sold at Wirksworth market place to john Spencer, Knight was apprehended in Sheffield, the Jury found him guilty and he was sentenced to six months with hard labour, there was a large number of previous convictions, it was stated that they were not living together as Man and Wife
CAPTURE OF SUPPOSED HORSE STEALER. THIS DAY.
The borough forces, and Police-constable Wheatley, of the Derbyshire Constabulary, succeeded in arresting in Spring street a hawker named Thomas Knight on a charge of stealing a horse from Wirksworth . The horse has been recovered in Worksop. The accused is well known character.
Brampton Chesterfield Derbyshire 1866
Shocking Depravity
At the County Magistrates at Chesterfield Tuesday last.
Joseph Wiltshire 22 of Nottingham itinerant Gipsy besom maker and Emma Graham 34 alias knight pot hawker of south sea Hants the latter charged with having stolen five pounds three shillings the property of David Allen pot hawker of Boroughbridge Staffordshire in the Griffin inn Brampton and the former with having feloniously received the same, but the prosecutor on not appearing they were both discharged, it was stated that the male prisoner knocked him down and when on the floor the woman cut out his pockets, They were then charged by Maria Knight (wife of the male, and daughter of the female prisoner) with assaulting her Saturday night, it was stated that Wiltshire was living with his own Mother in law as Man and Wife, the case was dismissed as the parties did not appear.
1874 Brampton
Charge of Stealing a Donkey.
Thomas Graham and James Knight, two Gipsies, were brought up in custody on remand with stealing an ass belonging to George Thompson, Brampton, The defence was that the prosecutor, who had been drinking with the prisoners, had given them permission to sell the animal while he was intoxicated.—The Bench considering the evidence was not sufficiently conclusive, dismissed the case.
1874 Derbyshire
Who Stole the Donkey
At the Magistrates' Clerk's Office, Chesterfield, two men named respectively James Knight and Thomas Graham, were each brought up charged with stealing a donkey, the property of a travelling hawker named James Wright.—The evidence went to show that on Monday night the prosecutor bought an ass for 6s. which he saw in a field at Walton, and on the following morning he went for it, and it was nowhere to be found. On the previous evening he was in company with the prisoners, and he suspected them of taking 14s. and some coppers out of his pocket. —George Beeley spoke to buying the ass from the two prisoners for 6d., on the previous morning, and he put it into the Royal Oak stable. —Remanded till Saturday
-
here you have Wilt__Shaw double barrelled ,and then just Wiltshaw, pluss Wilsher, and there all the same People , William the pot hawker is my Mothers GrandDad,why the same census reports differ in certain facts I do not know, don't ever believe records as genuine, you must find other things that match, I will show you soon how to connect the names as one,
Same - 1901 - Pleasley Nottinghamshire, Main Street, Shirebrook, derby Nott's!, Van.
Thomas Wiltshaw, h, m, 1864, Hawker, Sheffield Yorkshire.
Margaret, wife, 1871, Hartlepool Yorkshire.
Averhilda, dau, 1890, Sheffield Yorkshire.
Harriett, dau, 1891, Sheffield Yorkshire.
Thomas, son, 1894, Sheffield Yorkshire.
Margaret, dau, 1896, Sheffield Yorkshire.
Julia, dau, 1899, Sheffield Yorkshire.
Emma, dau, 1901, Sheffield Yorkshire.
-------
Same - 1901 - Pleasley Nottinghamshire, Main Street, Shirebrook, derby Nott's!, Van.
William Wiltshaw, h, m, 1880, Hawker, Woodsths! Derbyshire.
Maria R, wife, 1861, Hull Yorkshire.
Rebecca, dau, 1897, Sheffield Yorkshire.
William, son, 1899, Nottinghamshire.
-------
Same - 1901 - Pleasley Nottinghamshire, Main Street, Shirebrook, derby Nott's!, Van.
Joseph Wiltshaw, h, m, 1845, Hawker, Warrington Yorkshire.
Maria K, wife, 1844, Bolsover Derbyshire.
Emma, dau, 1883, Woodsetts! Derbyshire.
Henry, son, 1885, Woodsetts! Derbyshire.
1901 CENSUS* INDEXED AS WILT-SHAW
Nottinghamshire Civil parish: Pleasley Ecclesiastical parish: Shirebrook Holy Trinity Town: Shirebrook : Derbyshire
Lots there in caravans:-
William Wilt Shaw 21 B Woodsetts, Derbyshire Pot hawker
Maria R Wilt Shaw 20 Hul Yorkshire
Rebecca Wilt Shaw 4 Sheffield, Yorkshire
William Wilt Shaw 2 b Notinghamshire
*
Thomas Wilt Shaw 37 b Sheffield, Yorkshire looked at image and I think 27? Hawker
Margaret Wilt Shaw 20 wife b South Pool, Yorkshire image I think 30?
Emma Willt Shaw 2 months b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Harriett Wilt Shaw 10 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Julia Wilt Shaw 2 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Margaret Wilt Shaw 5 b Nottinghamshire,
Mathilda Wilt Shaw 11 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Thomas Wilt Shaw 7 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
*
Alfred Tyler 35 trav pot higgler b leics
Lucy Tyler 29 wife b Swadlincote, Derbyshire
*
Walter Knight 33 coal miner b Romsley, Worcestershire
Martha Knight 32 b Brampton, Derbyshire
Ada Knight 2 b Shirebrook, Derbyshire
Leonard Knight 3 months b Shirebrook, Derbyshire
Mary Knight 5 b Brampton, Derbyshire
Robert B Knight 12 b Brampton, Derbyshire
William Knight 8 b Brampton, Derbyshire
**
Joseph Wilt Shaw 56 B Darrington, Yorkshire
Maria Hork ? 57 wife b Bolsover, Derbyshire
Emma dau 18 BWoodsetts, Derbyshire
Henry 16 son B Woodsetts, Derbyshire
Address 3 H 1 COURT BARD ST PARK SHEFFIELD YORKSHIRE WILSHER WILLIAM HEAD MARRIED 35 PEDLAR SALESMAN B YORKSHIRE
WILSHER MARIA WIFE MARRIED 34 PEDLAR SALESMAN B CORN IN HULL YRKS
WILSHER REBECCA DAUGHTER 14 B SHEFFIELD YORKSHIRE
WILSHER WILLIAM SON 12 SCHOOL B SHEFFIELD YORKSHIRE
People not in houses*
1861*Pontefract, Yorkshire
William Willshaw abt 1811 Longbillington, Nottinghamshire, Head Tinner & Brazier
Lidia Willshaw abt 1812 Codbrough, Nottinghamshire, Wife
Joseph Willshaw abt 1846 Darrington, Yorkshire Son
Lidia Willshaw abt 1848 Lincoln, Lincolnshire Daughter
//
Walter Nelson abt 1829 Scotland Son-in-Law
Lotis Nelson abt 1829 Stowe, Lincolnshire, Daughter
Henry Nelson abt 1853 Wakefield, Yorkshire, Grandson
George Nelson abt 1854 Wakefield, Yorkshire, Grandson
Harriet Nelson abt 1856 Carlton, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
Mary Nelson abt 1858 Pontefract, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
//
William Blewitt abt 1809 widow Stamford, Lincolnshire, Head tinner & Brazier
Sarah Blewitt abt 1837 widow London, Middlesex, Daughter-in-Law
Valuza Blewitt abt 1856 York, Yorkshire, England Granddaughter
Enis Blewitt abt 1860 Hull, Yorkshire, England
//
John Lee abt 1797 Woodbridge, Suffolk, Head
Charlott Lee abt 1791 Woodbridge, Suffolk, Wife
Tenna Lee abt 1834 Livingston, Norfolk, Daughter
Mary Boss abt 1791 Farnham, Suffolk, Widow
John Phillips abt 1832 Thorne, Yorkshire Tinner & Brazier
-
this is our we must try to research, on the census records, look here how there is a Wiltshire a Wilsher and a Wiltshaw, now look at the address, then the bottom post about sums up the talk
Saturday 13 February 1926 Sheffield Independent South Yorkshire
False Pretences. Three charges of obtaining money by false pretences were admitted at Barnsley, yesterday, two Sheffield hawkers. Henry Wiltshaw, van dweller, of March street, Attercliffe, and Charles William Taylor, 3/2, Stafford street. Park, Sheffield. They were each fined 20s. and placed on probation for 12 months.
£205 IN CARAVAN. ROBBERY WITH VIOLENCE CHARGE SEQUEL. When Joseph Willey, and Samuel Morclon. were charged at Sheffield, yesterday, with robbery with violence, it was alleged that they attacked Henry Wilsher. living in caravan March street. Sheffield, with sticks, and stole from him 8 Janary 1927 Sheffield Independent South Yorkshire
Wednesday 2 October 1918 Sheffield Evening Telegraph South Yorkshire
SHEFFIELD POLICE. To=Day’s Cases. Raid on Van Dwellers. the Sheffield Police Court, to-day. before Mr. E. Wild and Councillor Blanchard, Thomas Wiltshire, of March Street, Atterdiffe, was charged with failing to report for military service. His brother, Henry Wiltshire, of the same address, was charged with a similar offence. The defendants were hawkers, and dwelt in vans. Early this morning the vans, huts and tents at the end of March Street
these above are just extracts I hope to put more up of the writings later,more details I have found offer more clues,
I just want to say also to Relations of the future who find these words that you are to know that what I am about to tell you is true, of course you have read much of the writers of the past and evan the times you now live in, how names were transcribed wrong, how the local accent could of changed how people transcribed the names of People you search for, and true this makes you job of researching a hard task, but let me help you where maybe others can not, when I was young I was the only one to ask, the only one to think of the Past, I was the only one who wanted to know, through this wanting many times just me and my Mother would often just sit and talk, I could see and feel Her going back, those same Far Away Eyes, George Smith had them, Levi and Ria had them, so did Letty, and I stole them all, and still have them, but long before the internet, long before I had evan read a single book, long before I had the Good Luck and Fortune to talk to so many Gipsies of this day and true learn also from them evan thoe I was already set in my ways never to alter, well my Mother would talk of the Older Folk, Relations, we would talk much, the strange thing all of a sudden She also would say a Romany Word that I had never heard Her say before, you know She said there was so much of the Old Talk but now everyone's gone , sure there was mostly now only me to talk to, in the Old Words, that's why the Words would just go to sleep,
but the thing I want Relations who look for the Ones I write about to know is long ago they often new about which name to use, it was no mistake, just out of the blue one day when having the talk with my Mother She just randomly said, they used to have big debates, they used to be going on about which Name is the true one, my Mother teled me this long ago and me not knowing what She was going on about, I just thought a Name was a Name, but She would say they would switch names about but they really new they were all Related evan those if you where mostly named Wilshaw in 1880, you would say that was the true Name, yes they were having debates among themselves of such things long long ago as past down to me as was past down to my Mother as now I give to you freely, you must know these things, in time you will see how they evan fight each other, don't read to much into this, its just the way, Gipsies fight their own more than strangers, you would think them crackers but that's just the truth of it, don't read to much into such things,
of course through time lots of People with the same Name may not be the same People, all sorts of things happen in the history of Familys, do not trouble yourself with worrying to much of these things also, writers place to much truth in honest or dishonest lies,
so if any one could answer my question I would be most grateful indeed, I also would like to know does the name Walter link back straight to the Grahams Knights, or evan the Nelsons, no offence against the name Walter, but you don't see many People with that name, I bet its a past down Name and the clues I give for you to help me is all I have, not saying anything I have learned from learning is true , no never just everything from my Mother was how it was told me, that is the truth I am giving you, all I would like is an answer to the question how was Walter Related to William
Tuesday 6 October 1908 Derbyshire Courier
POACHINQ AFFRAY. Another “Suspect’’ in Custody. ‘‘l am innocent ; i know nothing about it,” was the answer of Thomas Wiltshire, alias Wilshaw and Wilsher, who until recently resided at 40, Apple Street, Sheffield, and occupation is a hawker, who was brought up to Court on Monday, on a charge of having inflicted greivous bodily harm on Sergeant Butchby and Police-constable Aves, at Tolley,
-
" no offence against the name Walter, but you don't see many People with that name"
this above is what I wrote on my last post I thought Walter was an unusual name but on looking I have found quite a few Walters evan those Top Names like Boswell and Smith have Walters, I thought I might write about every Walter I find then I changed my mind for I have got to much to do already, so I'll only put these on to set the record straight about how I thought how there was not many Walters about, it was just a good true mistake on my part, for I only know what I know and I am learning the rest on the hoof, so Respect to all the Walters, and I hope through my triumphs and disasters at what ever level, others who in this day or the future may be able to find which they look for
Yorkshire Evening Post Monday 2 September 1901
A HUDDERSFIELD HORSE DEALER'S THREAT.
At the Police Court, Huddersfield, to-day, Edward Wiltshire (47), hawker and horse dealer, Bradley, was charged with having used threats to Walter Smith in Huddersfield fair ground on Tuesday last. The men had known each other for over thirty years, but raised a feud over some disagreement at Bradford. Meeting again at Huddersfield, the old grievance was re-ventilated, and culminated in Wiltshire issuing a threat. According to the evidence of a police-officer, he went to earth on his knees, raised his hands towards heaven, and said,
" I call upon God and all you people here to witness that I will kill that man (Walter Smith) before morning." bound over to keep the peace for six months and ordered to pay 15s. 6d. costs.
Walsall Advertiser 26 October 1895
STUBBERS GREEN
A Savage Attack.—As savage an attack as not been experienced for some time by many resident of Stubbers Green, near Aldridge, was perpetrated on Samuel Duckhouse, brickmaker, Stubbers Green, by gypsies named respectively as Walter, Adolphus, and Florrie (alias Rebecca) Boswell .on Oct. 6th. He was passing their camp about 10.10 p.m. on his way home from Aldridge when he was asked for a match. He replied that he had not got one, but was immediately struck down by Walter Boswell. Witness gathered himself up and was making for home when he was further assaulted by the other two Boswells. He preferred charges of assault against them at Bushall on Monday. Neither of the accused put in an appearance, but had returned the summons by post from Brewood to complainant smeared with ink and dirt. Duckhouse also produced a watch, which he had been wearing at the time, and which was very much damaged. The defendants had since left the neighbourhood.—The Chairman, in sentencing them each to one calendar month’s imprisonment with hard labour, said it was a very serious offence
Nottingham Evening Post Wednesday 6 June 1923
VAN DWELLERS FINED.
James Johnson, Tom Smith, Walter Boswell, and Samuel Boswell. van dwellers, were to-day at Loughborough charged with trespassing in search of game Shepshed. Defendants did not appear. The evidence was that their dogs chased a hare through several fields, and a catapult was found in the possession of one of them. They were each fined 20s.
-
just encase People who are looking for the same People that I look for, don't be thinking just be course sometimes their fighting or what not that it means anything, if it does it just means that there all Pals really, the Smiths are Relations to my Mother, they are Great True Rip Roaring Gipsies of the Old Times, these are just a few of the records of them,
Nottingham Evening Post Wednesday 30 November 1921
"JIST A BIT OF A TEMPER."
NOTTM. COMPLAINANT SAYS SHE DESERVED WHAT SHE GOT.
When William Wiltshire, jun.. 23, hawker. 7, Glasshouse-street. Nottingham, appeared in the dock at the Guildhall to-day charged with assaulting Nellie Smith, the latter, on-going into the witness-box, said, "I want this case to be dismissed", the Chairman (Mr. W. Davis): Withdrawn you mean Complainant: Yes. It, was just a bit of a temper. I deserved what I got. The case was accordingly withdrawn.
Leeds Mercury Saturday 30 December 1922
HAWKKRS’ FREE FIGHT. Lively Dispute Over Ownership of a Horse. exciting scene at Sheffield yesterday. The premises of Mark Smith, hawker, Infirmary-road, were visited by two other hawkers each named William Wilsher, Father and son. the Fairground Penistone. the object of the visit was reported to be to recover a horse alleged to be held bv Smith as security for a loan. Right of possession of the horse was disputed, and a free fight ensued in which sticks and stones were used with considerable effect. While it was in process a supporter on the side of the Wilshers mounted the horse, and was pursued by a detective in a taxi-cab, he rode away and had got away a quarter of mile before he was stopped When other police had stopped the fight the two Wilshers and Smith, all suffering from scalp wounds and bruises, were conveyed to the Infirmary for treatment, and afterwards to the police-station, but they refused to prefer any charge, and were allowed to go.
Sheffield Independent 7 July 1931
ALLEGED POLISH FRAUD.
At Worksop The Police charged yesterday, William Wiltshire and William Henry Smith, of Owlerton Feast Ground, Sheffield, both caravan dwellers, who were charged with obtaining Is. 6d. by false pretences Police-constable Townsend said defendants sold a bottle of coloured water for French polish.Defendants were remanded accordingly.
now look at these two posts of records of Kelks Yard, there is a Pedlar who lived there who was charged with a Walter Smith, then one of the many William Wiltshires was there to
Nottingham Evening Post 22 August 1914
Three months' imprisonment was the punishment meted out to Walter Smith, 38. hawker. Sherwood street, and Robert Cunningham. 29, pedlar, Kelk’s yard. who were convicted at the Nottingham Police-Court to-day on a charge of stealing two metal watches, a joiner’s bass containing tools, and other goods, value 30s., belonging to Cornelius Bennett, of Sheridan-street. Evidence was given that the two prisoners had lodged at prosecutor's house, and that about midnight on August 15th Bennett's daughter heard voices and informed her father, who going downstairs found the door open. The lodgers had left, but Bennett subsequently saw Smith, who had the_ watches, and was wearing the waistcoat which did not belong to him. Cunningham was stopped by P.c. Wilkinson a little later and in reply to the charge of stealing pleaded guilty. Smith, however, said that the officer could not charge him, adding that he preferred to go to the Assizes.
Nottingham Evening Post Monday May 30 Extract
A case illustrative of the long arm of the law came before Messrs. T. Ships tone and J. E. Pendleton at the Nottingham Summons Court to-day, when William Wiltshire, alias Hartley, of 1, Kelk's-yard, Count-street, Nottingham,
now look at these two posts below I just find them on the internet, truthfully I do not know what is true, these are just written records about St Anns Street, look below it says Henry Wiltshire was there in 1934, then in 1837 Joseph and Lydia are there, same place, i think these People came to Nottingham over several generations, time and time again,
Monday 17 september 1934 nottingham evening post
GENTLEMAN AND HIS LADY FRIENDS.
NOTTM. DRUNKENNESS CHARGE.
When Henry Wiltshire, 50, hawker, of St. Ann'street, appeared before the magistrates with two women companions at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day, jointly charged with being drunk and disorderly in Milton-street on Saturday night, he declared himself to be a "gentleman," and took it upon himself the full blame for the lapse of the women. The women were Ellen Smith, 27, and Rose Ann Stranther, 40. Referring to one of them, Wiltshire declared :" My son married this woman's sister, and I had not seen this girl for a few years. They are here through me getting them drunk. "Its my fault." The Bench however, imposed fines. Wiltshire and Smith were fined the higher amounts
Joseph and Lydia Wilsher had a daughter Mary Ann baptised at Normanton on Trent 15th Sep 1816. Then there is a baptism on freereg for Lydia d/o Joseph and Lydia Wiltshire of Saint Ann's St., tin man, Nottingham St. Mary, 22nd Jan 1837. This Lydia would fit agewise with the widowed Lydia Elliott who is with Richard and Mary on the 1871 census and make her sister to Mary.
-
I want to correct another error, its so easy to transcribe writings wrong, in the record of David Woodward and Thomas Willshaw Hawkers of Sheffield I wrote that they stole coats, but on seeing another record it says goats, meerrr, i try to read several records of the same story and believe me you find so much more information this way, if any one can find the Woodwards in any census with the People I search for I would be most grateful to you, look at the Address of Broad street, I will put more on in a minute of this place, then see how you may connect Names and Locations, I know there are many ways to slip up in researching this way, but I have to try , evan mistakes are a true part of honest research and should be acknowledge as the right way to go on
Derbyshire 1884
Derbyshire Quarter Sessions
Alleged False Pretences.
Thomas Willshaw, 17, hawker, and David Woodward. 17, hawker, were indicted for obtaining. by means of false pretences, two coats, value £1 Is., the property of Ann Chatterton. At Glossop, on the 2nd of September, 1884. —No doubt the men had obtained the goods and disposed of them. The question was whether there was any agreement to purchase them. If they thought the prisoners agreed to purchase the goods even if they did not pay for them, they could find no bill, and then there would be question of debt. If they thought there was no contract to purchase the goods, then unquestionably the prisoners did obtain them by means of false pretence. He thought they would be able to find a bill, if the two witnesses adhered to what they said before the magistrates. After hearing several witnesses the Chairman said he did not think the case was one for a jury, the case broke down, and the prisoners were discharged.
this is what is the true record
Sheffield Independent Thursday 18 September 1884
Charge against Sheffield Men. — Yesterday, at the New Mills Police Court, two young men, named respectively as David Woodward and Thomas Willshaw, earthenware hawkers, residing in Broad street lane, Sheffield, were brought up on remand on a charge of obtaining by false pretences two goats, valued at £1. ls., from Ann Chatterton, at New Mills, on August 30th. Prisoners sold one of the goats to Hugh Crookes, a Sheffield poultry dealer, and were apprehended by the Sheffield police. They were defended by Mr. Broadsmith, solicitor, who contended that they were men of good character, and had been entrusted by the prosecutrix to sell the animals, but were arrested before they had an opportunity of restoring the money. After a hearing extending! over two hours, they were both committed for trial at the Sessions, but allowed bail in two sureties of £25 each.
-
these are just a few of the records of the Woodwards I have wrote of, there is a great many more you have to read back in the many posts in these writings to read the fuller accounts, I will put more up later I'm just trying to connect People through Names and locations, if anyone can find any census reports for me I would be most grateful
Gloucestershire 1891
Petty Sessions, Berkley, Thursday.Joseph Wiltshire, Mary Ann Woodward, and Jemima Gasby,
Gipsies travelling with vans, were arrested and brought up under a warrant charging them with assaulting and beating William Coles Harding, farmer and dealer, of Sanigar. It appeared from the evidence that the prisoners visited the Bell Inn at Berkeley Heath, and there being some dispute as to a broken cup,Complainant deposed that he was sitting outside the Bell talking to three or four other farmers and dealers, and heard the Landlord, Mr Hooper, ask defendants to pay for a cup they had broken. Wiltshire was very abusive, and complainant told him he had belter pay and get off Wiltshire took off his coat, and thereupon caught complainant by the hands and butted his head into his face several times, causing severe bruises. Harding then defended himself, He put prisoner on his back on the ground, and then the two females "pitched into" witness. Woodward struck him with her fists, and knew how to use them. As there was a further charge against the prisoners, sentence was deferred. They were then charged, together with William Gasby, with assaulting and beating John Charles Hooper, landlord of the Bell inn, who said, when the fracas with Mr. Harding was finished, Wiltshire came and knocked him down unawares. As soon as he was down the four prisoners pitched into him and dragged him about. Gasby tripped him several times when he went to help Mr. Harding.
They hammered him about for five minutes. The four prisoners pleaded for leniency. The bench considered Wiltshire the worst to blame, and he was sentenced to 14 days' imprisonment with hard labour for the assault on Harding, and 14 days' further hard labour for the assault on Hooper. Woodward and Jemima Gasby were each fined and William Gasby was fined
Bakewell Petty Sessions 1881
A Gipsy Encampment At Stoke
Joseph Wiltshire, Attercliffe Common, summoned for making a bonfire on the side of the highway on the 26th of May in the parish of Stoke, to the danger of the public— Defendant did not appear. sergeant Fern stated that he found the defendant camping at the side of the highway, there was within three feet from the side the road and 50 feet from the centre of the road a large fire, He told him he had been repeatedly warned and being of no use, he would summon him. defendant was very abusive when spoken to about the illegality of this " ho" he replied "I know nineteen points of the law, and I,ll teach you the twentieth." He was a low pot hawker and gipsy horse dealer. cloths were hanging out to dry by the side of the road, and there appeared to be quite a small colony of the tribe camping on the side of the road with a roaring fire. Fined 2s. 6d 10s. 6d. costs.
Keeping a Dog Without a Licence
The same defendant was also summoned for keeping a dog without a license at the same time and place as the above. Sergeant Fern proved the case and the Bench imposed penalty of 5s. 10d with 10s. 6d. costs
Allowing A Horse To Stray.
A third summons was also issued against the same defendant for allowing a horse to stray on the highway, the parish of Sheldon on the 27th of May. Alcock proving the case said i was on the road leading from Ashford to Taddington, about 10.30 p.m. when I came upon some horses straying in the road, and further on a large fire by the side of the road and two wagons. it appears that Wiltshire having removed from Stoke made his way to the picturesque valley of Taddington Dale where he pitched up his tent but he found no peace evan there. fined 1s. and 10s. 6d. costs.
Another Gipsy's Horse at Large.
Emmanuel Woodward, a gipsy hawker, traveling in the company of Wiltshire was summoned by P.c Alcock, of Taddington, for permitting a horse to stray on the highway between Ashford and Taddington, on the 27th of May. .fined ls. and 10s. 6d. costs
-
so up above you read David and Thomas, Woodward and Willshaw earthenware hawkers, lived at a place in Sheffield named Broad Street, well a lane around there, now look at these records with Broad Street as the Address
Sheffiel Independent 17 September 1885
Alleged Serious Assault. — Joseph Wilshaw, hawker, 3 court, Broad street lane, who is said to have been a professional boxer, was charged with an assault upon Emma Pashley, fish hawker, broad street. Park. — The complainant and her son were at Mr. Brook- field's public-house at. the corner of Brook street and Sheaf street, where the defendant was, and, according to complainant's case, the defendant struck her in the face and on the body, knocked her down, and while on the floor put his fingers in her mouth and attempted to pull her tongue out. She also stated that he kicked' her. — Witnesses were called on both sides, and that the magistrates eventually intimated that they considered complainant had exaggerated the circumstances in accusing the defendant of the brutal conduct imputed to him, but they believed an assault was committed, and they inflicted a fine of 10s. and costs.
Sheffield Weekly Telegraph 19 September 1885
A “Bruiser. "—Joesph Wilshaw, hawker. 3 Court, Broad Street lane, Park, was summoned for Emma Pashby, fish hawker. —According to the complainant, she entered Brookfield’s public house, in Broad street, on the previous evening, for the purpose of selling shellfish,
when her son and the defendant had “ a few words" as to his capability of fighting; but the defendant said he (defendant) had “given up fighting.” The complainant was interfering, so the defendant seized her, and put his hand in her mouth, and tried to pull her tongue out. and injured the inside of her cheek.—Defendant denied the assault, and said the complainant struck him.—The Bench said the complainant had exaggerated her case, but defendant would be fined 10s. and costs; in default 14 days.
Sheffield Evening Telegraph Tuesday 1 November 1910 Extract
MISSING LEAD.
Curious Story in Sheffield Police Court. . Two cousins, named Thomas Wilshaw and James Wilshaw. hawkers, the former living in Nelson Yard, Broad Street, and the latter in Pitt Street, wore charged with stealing l cwt. 3 quarters load of lead , From the promises of the Soho Grinding Wheel Company, of Bridge Street. Mr. A. B. Chambers appeared for the prosecution, and Mr. P. B. Richardson defended. For prosecution, it was stated that on Sunday evening a man named Maurice Hampshire was standing at the corner of Corporation Street and Bridge Street, and he saw two young men on top of a wall just by the company’s premises. They dropped something heavy into street, and there were two other young fellows on scene who gave some assistance. the load was carried through a passage leading towards the river, but Hampshire was unable positively identify either of the accused, though the men he saw were about the same size as prisoner. Police sergeant Matthews saw Thomas Wilshaw in the immediate neighbourhood the same evening, The prisoners were committed the Quarter Sessions, bail being allowed.
-
I have found a great many records of the Great Family named Woodward, one day I will write more truth of them for all the Relitives who will find these words on Roots Chat and who are also Researching,
the Woodwards like all the Gipsies have a Great Sadness about Them, yes some very sad times, I am sure they are Related to the People I write of, if anyone can find any census records with Both of Them on, I would be most obliged if you would be so kind to transcribe them here to help in my Research
Grantham Journal Saturday 9 June 1888
WILLOUGHBY-ON-THE-WOLDS.
Child Suffocated.—On Thursday, the District Coroner held inquest at the Bull's Head Inn, Willoughby-on-the-Wolds, on the body of William Woodward, aged six weeks.—Eliza Woodward, wife of Joseph Woodward, a hawker, said she was the mother of the deceased. They travelled about with a van and a cart. The child slept with her, her husband, and another child two and a half years old, in a covered cart. On Wednesday night, she and her husband got up, leaving the children in bed. Returning, about six o'clock, she found the deceased black. She called in Selina Woodward, and then took the child to a doctor. —Joseph and Selina Woodward gave evidence, and Mr. John Woodward Browne deposed to examining the child. From its appearance attributed death to suffocation. Verdict to that effect was returned.
Stamford Mercury Friday June 17 1859
. An Inquest was held at Aslackby, by Mr. White, the 14th inst., the body of Henry Woodward, aged six years, son of Joseph Woodward, of Castle Donnington, general dealer. It appears that the boy's father and other hawkers travel about the country with horses in their company. On Sunday morning they left Aslackby, and deceased rode his brown mare, which he had often ridden before. He had no saddle or bridle, only baiter. The mare was not a vicious animal. They went about two miles until they came to a gate across the road. Deceased's father went to the gate first, and got off and opened it, There were four other horses besides the one he was riding, and Woodward, sen. was leading two by reps to the one he was on. Young Woodward was riding another, ' and the fifth horse was loose. When his father got off, the loose horse began kicking the horse deceased was on, who fell under the horse's feet. The horse went over and caught him under the ear with its fetlock. Deceased cried out " Oh, father," and died within two minutes. The loose horse, the buck one, was rather vicious. Phoenix Gray, wanderer about the country without any settled home or occupation was present at the time of the accident and deposed to the above facts. Verdict "accidentally killed by being thrown from mare and kicked by another mare."
Rest in Peace
-
when I found the photos for People at Christmas I found a few pencil drawings I think they are of Johnny Grey and young Pauline Grey by Brain Wade, Brian Wade had His hands blown of in the war, He then learned to draw just with His feet, a remarkable Man, I found quite a bit about His life, it was the same war that I am researching and writing about, well I will not write the article up but it is a great little article about Johnny Grey from Sheffield, all about His life Horse dealing and making things from wood like chairs, I know I write and look for real life truths, but this is real life to, I would recommend anyone interested to have a look, it gives you a true glimpse about the life of Johnny Grey the Romany Gipsy Man I think you would find this small article interesting, I do hope some of His Relatives will also find this and get a copy of the drawings for their Family, if they do not already own one of course, I like to think in my life I may help someone one day in the research I do regarding the People I look for, it is such a shame really I find so many things, but I do hope one of Johnny Greys Relatives read these words one day and in turn they help them to know of true little ways of goings on, and remember to write to the newspaper they will be able to get you a clear copy of the drawings,
Brian Wade completed sketch of Johnny Grey and Pauline Grey. Aged three,
Yorkshire Evening Post 25 February 1935
GIPSY'S 26 H.P. "HORSE." Car Owned by the Lord Mayor of Leeds Who Was Killed in a Crash.
A limousine that belonged to the Lord Mayor Is now used to draw a gipsy caravan up and down Yorkshire.
-
I was thinking of how good Richard was at researching, He was writing at the beginning of this thread about Daniel Boswell, it was Richard who showed me how to search the Newspaper Archives, so then I backtracked and again see how He also looked into the Directory Archives in His research, so now I to am copying Him again, I keep finding things so now I will tell anyone who like me does not know anything to also copy me, just look at this one record I found and how you can match up records from different sources to give you a stronger knowledge,
just search the University of Leicester Special Collections Online. you will find in them Wrights Directory's and others like Kelly's Directory's, then just put in the words you want to search, I have found much in the Sheffield ones this below is just one example of how you can find things,
this is a report from the Newspaper Archives
A DERBY DISTURBANCE. NOTTM.
HAWKER HIS WEALTHY SONS-IN-LAW.
Nottingham 1919
A melee in the Derby Cattle Market on Friday, in which prisoner was rescued from custody and a constable had to make use of his staff, had a sequel at the police-court to-day. Joseph Wiltshire, hawker, 6, Gedling-street, Nottingham, was fined 10s. assaulting Pc. Bristow, and for assaulting Special Constable H. A. Wallace (market superintendent), whom he struck several times on the face and body; while Alfred Smith, dealer, living in a van at Cotton-lane, was fined 7s. 6d. for fighting. Bristow apprehended Smith and his antagonist, whereupon Wiltshire (the father-in-law of the men) and others intervened and succeeded in getting one of the prisoners away. Wiltshire then ran off, but was stopped by Mr. Wallace who told the Bench that Wiltshire made a mad struggle for freedom. Wiltshire, against whom there were eight previous convictions. including one for police assault, stated that his sons-in-law had a lot of money in their possession and was afraid they would be robbed.
then in the 1915 1916 Wrights Directory of Nottingham it states that in the Cloths and Wardrobe Dealers column and see also Marine Store Dealers, well Joseph Wiltshire is listed as living at 6a Gedling Street , this is the same Address as the Joseph Wiltshire in the Newspaper Record, I would say it is a strong possibility they are the same People if not the same Family,
on one page of Wrights Records it just says Wardrobe Dealer and does not connect the Marine Store Dealing Name, when browsing the records it could be easy to come across a Name and just think that doesn't sound right, as in He was just selling wardrobes, then you could just avoid the information and move on, then you would be loosing evidence, but through looking on many records from several different sources and ways of researching you find things like an address that combines your research into hard evidence, you could still be wrong but this is the way to find answers, I will put more up another time of the things I find and also a link to the University of Leicester Special Collections Online, I hope this information will be of help for others who like me do not really know much, and again a great thanks to Richard for showing the way
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjk7OqKv63SAhXFB8AKHYy6AfIQFggvMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fspecialcollections.le.ac.uk%2Fcdm%2Fref%2Fcollection%2Fp16445coll4%2Fid%2F339941&usg=AFQjCNFILcIzHjNl4ZmgYGKHB4gtFvIyVg
once you go into this link you can search other city's and towns over hundreds of years, you find People like Razor Grinders living in say Sheffield in say 1880 and an address, its a great way of researching, when you are on the town city or place of your choice plus the timescale just put the words you are searching in the column where its says text search, then if there is a match to your word or words it will show up as a number meaning there are ten matchers, then on the right hand side you scroll down the page numbers and the match up will be highlighted in red, if there are no matchers it will just say zero, but try different ways of spelling or just use your imagination, that brings great results to,
Good Luck
Leahcim
-
The Rodney Yard Brampton near Chesterfield is one of the old stopping Grounds where lots of my Mothers Relatives passed through over many years of travel, it as long since gone but by using the maps online it is easily found, if you go back in the posts I have wrote you will find more information, Rodney Yard the Peoples and their Story's must be remembered and preserved for the future Generations, i never new of this place nor did I ever hear my Mother say She new, then one day I found it, I to have found many interesting story's of the history and the Peoples that connect in many ways to Brampton, I know I said I was going to write a great account up of these times and People but I will just put up now my last words for another Person in this time or the future to do a far more in-depth analytical research that will help all the Relatives connected to the story's of Brampton,
if you go back many pages in this thread I talk of the Bold Rodney Public House, there is a Great Yard at the back of this Pub, this became a place that Gipsies who like the Wiltshire's who roamed over several Counties temporally used as a place to keep their Caravans, this yard in time became to, a sort of a settled community to all types of Hawkers and People, some of the times are of great sadness, others, well Gipsies I have found somehow possess in their life the Greatest of humour,
this place is rich in history, you can find the People I write about well back into the 1800s, and forwards to the 1920s, there to are many Big Names and story's of People like the Lees and Smiths who stopped there, I found true story's to of the Woodward's and Wiltshire's, there is much to learn from the story of Brampton, I was told the new building on the site of the old yard were erected in the 1990s, I would like Someone one day to research this place, I was going to do this but now leave it to you, I know you can do it,
I found and have spoken to People who lived and grew up around this place and through my research on the internet and oral history of this time in researching I have found there were several things that all came together to make Brampton the hub for the Gipsies over hundreds of years,
this in what I am telling you is just an outline and a start for your Great Research,
in the fields around Brampton there is a very special clay that was dug from the earth to make pots, mugs bowls and the like, it was renowned for its looks as the unique Chesterfield Earthenware, also there was an abundance of local coal that was next to the clay fields, they the People of Chesterfield then made many many places to make pots, also there were natural waterways that ran through this place that provided the water needed in the process of manufacture of the pots than intern were fired in the kilns, it was a special place where everything in nature came together to create this hub, a place Gipsies found and exploited, I have found much information about the history of clay, coal , waterways and all the peoples, the Gipsies were one of those Peoples, I do know some of you on rootschat have spoken of not all pot dealers are Gipsies, I to have found your research to be true
I remember how the Great Men I found in the 1700s the Herons and the Boswells, and how the Boswell Man said of Himself He was a Man who went about the Country selling mugs, I have researched and read much up of the history of Scotland over hundreds of years, through this research long ago Gipsies became known as Muggers for being People who sell pots and mugs, then down through the years it became a bad name to be called a Mugger, but really the very old Gipsies were the Muggers for it was them who sold the mugs and pots, I have read Great information about the times that supports this from long ago, it was none Gipsies who called the Old Gipsies muggers, then years later mugger became a rallying cry for others to say you dirty muggers are not real Gipsies, I think through my research people alive now have been influenced by the wrong teachings of others, this is my view through reading the old accounts of the greatest of minds and writers, unknown to many and who's words of history are hidden in dusty papers and silenced, so Brampton its story's and history, may be used as an example, these storys will be replicated around Britain, you will find your People, you will find their history, many many Horses and trades were needed in the history of Brampton, I have found so much, but I will leave it for you, I respect all the Gipsies who passed through that place, I also hope this is just the start for the true story of their life to be told in an honest way, I am just summarising the many thousands of words I was going to write, there is so much more, I will summarise my other researches soon and then I will trouble you no more, try not to pick at my words but use them as a starting point
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjTwv3u9rzSAhUiJcAKHaIFCMEQFggoMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mernick.org.uk%2FBrownJugs%2FBrampton%2FBrampton.htm&usg=AFQjCNGiZeMxMJ36YsM0a8Iejut9bipcRQ
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjV3vCb8bzSAhUsKsAKHXddBlcQFgghMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.picturethepast.org.uk%2Ffrontend.php%3Fkeywords%3DRef_No_increment%3BEQUALS%3BDCCC001305%26pos%3D2%26action%3Dzoom&usg=AFQjCNEZCC6LSpc_KlHw8I6Tk2osDYAazA
-
Hello Everyone
i am now finalising my research that i have been doing around a little Town called Worksop north Nottinghamshire, it was part a massive circuit that my Mothers Relatives used over untold and unknown years, hopefully in the future or this day this research may be of help to others, there are many Gipsies who came this way, its a massive place for the Smiths, my Mother would sometimes talk of them as they were many over Sutton Mansfield to Worksop, North Nott's , i will summarise this research then leave it there for others to hopefully expand on
I came across in these researchers a Man who was known as a General Dealer who also traded in Horses, I don't know if He is related in any way to the Gipsies, but through His story's i have now found many of the People i was looking for
In a magazine called "Retford Life" dated 1 October 2013, there is an article called
"Al Hallows Horror"
it states that there in the 1881 census there is a Joseph White born 1856 also listed in the Kings Royal Irish Hussars,
the house where He lived was constructed on a plot of land called the "new bulking ground" liston to the story of this house and then learn of Joe White and how His life interacts with the Gipsies
Sheffield Independent Tuesday 6 March 1883 Extract
THE "BEWITCHED HOUSE" AT WORKSOP. THE "GHOST" The excitement that has arisen at Worksop in con- sequence of the extraordinary manifestations at the house of Joseph White, general dealer, continues unabated. White's houses are situated in John street, off Sandy lane White's cottage being adjacent to a pastured field
click on this link below to learn of the story
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj3-43oz9DSAhXoKsAKHYyqCIIQFghLMAc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.nottingham.ac.uk%2Fmanuscripts%2F2014%2F10%2F31%2Frapping-at-my-chamber-door%2F&usg=AFQjCNFWhu-vp-hw0lBRTEH0bryB5i76Ng&bvm=bv.149397726,d.d2s
Joe White I have found is a great Dealing Man, He owned a plot of land where for generations Gipsies stayed, it was known as "Whites Piece"
this is the place below in the photo links
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjj1aeA0dDSAhWnKMAKHajEAn4QFgghMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worksopheritagetrail.org.uk%2F&usg=AFQjCNEM5y9RvW9HMejZ9vBBoKvtwrcMtg
click on this link above and a web site will appear then click on where it says photographs, then type in Sandhill, you may have to type it in twice, sometimes the photos do not come up the first time you try, you will then see a block of seven photographs, the one at the end on the right-hand side is known as Whites Piece, this is where a great Many Gipsies stayed long ago, it says the photo was from the 1920s but on the link below it now says it is from the 1930s, I do not know which one is right, I do hope this information maybe of help in someone's research, so now click on this link below for the same photo
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjVtraH09DSAhWKIcAKHfzcCwMQFggmMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.picturethepast.org.uk%2Ffrontend.php%3Faction%3Dprintdetails%26keywords%3DRef_No_increment%3BEQUALS%3BNCCN001026%26prevUrl%3D&usg=AFQjCNGMccnJkWGpjl-6DuSwKquz8NEmLQ
I am only summarising this research from Worksop,
remember there will be far more for you to find, this will only be an outline of a much deeper story going back many hundreds of years, I will write of what I have found around Worksop next and then leave it there, if anyone would like to say anything you would be more than welcome
-
hello, I will now put on a summarised account of my research about the People and their life around Worksop, it will take about three pagers I will edit all the writings into extracts, through my research I wish to help People who are Related, someone once me sent a census from the early 1900s with a Wiltshire married to a Boiling or Boyling, this is the reason I put the report on below, so if your looking for the same People as I am keep an eye open for that Name, also, I put on below the record about the Smiths who had their portraits taken, I think this is of an historical interest,
Sheffield Independent Thursday 19 September 1889
ALLEGED ATTEMPTED MURDER AT WORKSOP. At Worksop, yesterday, George Starkey, a miner, was charged_ with threatening to blow out ths brains of Mr. J. White, general dealer, of Sandhill, Worksop, on Saturday, September 14th. Prisoner was also charged with using a gun with intent to do bodily harm, or with intent to murder, as would be shown _by the evidence. Prisoner was remanded to Lincoln Gaol for a week, bail being refused.
George White, af Sandhill, Worksop, was then charged with using, threats to Rhoda Starkey, wife of the above- mentioned George Starkey .— Rhoda Starkey said that on the night in question she, her husband, and their little girl were returning home about twenty minutes past eleven, and when near J. White's house, prisoner flew at her husband, hit him in the mouth, cut his lip open, and struck him three times on the head. She told the prisoner he would be summoned for what he had done, as her husband had not retaliated with a single blow, then prisoner and his three brothers set on both of them and ill-used them dreadfully. Prosecutor was knocked down in a passage, and trodden on, and prosecutor deliberately took a running kick at her hand, injuring it severely. The men had four dogs with them. She went about in bodily fear.— Remanded for a week, bailed on surety of £10.
Sheffield Independent Wednesday 17 June 1931
MAN NEED NOT BE BEAUTIFUL A sequel to an accident at Oldcotes was heard at Worksop Oliver Edward Harrison, miner. Abbeydale road, Sheffield, sued Horace Boyling, a hawker, living in a caravan on White's piece. Sandhill street, Worksop, for loss of wages and damages. It was stated that Boyling's car struck Harrison and he was knocked down. His Honour (to Harrison): Are you all right now?—No, sir.
Whats the matter, I have a scar over my left eye.
Never mind, a man does not need be beautiful.
The Judge awarded Harrison £8O and costs.
Sheffield Independent Thursday 18 January 1866
WORKSOP — Police-constable charged two gipsies, named James Smith and Elijah Smith, with having unlawful possession of a pheasant, on the 16th inst. Evidence not being forthcoming, the Bench decided to dismiss the charge, on condition that the two men agreed to have their portraits taken To this they readily agreed. The two men who were charged with stealing corn, were again remanded until next Wednesday.
Sheffield Independent 14 October 1926
charge of obtaining three pigs, December last by false pretences from Thomas Pressley, at Whitwell, was preferred against William Wiltshire (51), hawker, who was arrested at Dronfield. it was stated in prisoner's representation that he was a a dealer buying for Mr. Joe White, of Worksop, he then sold him three pigs for .£ll.10s. account, cheque, receive for the pigs, the court said there was nothing to say in Wiltshire's favour. He was an associate of thieves and prostitutes, and had many previous convictions,
Sheffield Independent Tuesday 7 September 1926
“THROWING MONEY ABOUT.” William Wiltshire, hawker, of no settled abode, trial, Wiltshire represented that he was a dealer buying for Mr J White, of Worksop, and he then let him have the pigs on a promise to pay a cheque in two or three days. "He was throwing about plenty of money during the bargaining, added the witness and I thought he was dealing fairly.”
Sheffield Independent Tuesday 25 February 1930
Elusive Hawker
TRACED BY POLICE AFTER FIVE YEARS. For participating in a false pretences the offence committed at Whitwell five years ago, William Wiltshire (30), hawker, who gave a Nottingham address, was bound over and ordered to pay the costs at Dronfield, yesterday. Superintendent Clarke recalled that on 12 December, 1925, Wiltshire, with is father, called on a man named Thomas Presley, and representing they were acting for a well Known buyer, they obtained three pigs, Wiltshire, sen., was sentenced to 15 months' imprisonment and the present defendant was bound over to appear when called upon. He gave a Nottingham address but when called upon was found to missing. He had just been traced to Nottingham again. Wiltshire told the Court that in the meantime he had been working In London.
Sheffield Daily Telegraph 25 September 1902
ALLEGED THEFT FROM THE PERSON. At Worksop yesterday, Albert Williams, labourer, was charged with stealing a silver watch and chain, value £5 15s., from the person of John Quinn, greengrocer, Worksop, on September 16—Mr. John Appleton appeared for the prosecution.—In this case another man named William Wiltshire, gipsy, was charged jointly with Williams with being concerned in the theft, and was remanded on bail last week, but has since absconded
-
helo this is page two of three of my researchers around Worksop, I do hope Relations who like me search for answers have in some way been helped, I wish for all these writings to be expanded on and corrected, long ago my Mother would tell of an Old Gipsy Family Related to the Smiths Wilshers Wiltshires Wilshaws, they seamed to me to be of a Quiet and Reserved nature, She as now long since gone, as have the People we would visit, so I will just put on a few extracts of records I have found, if you are able to read the full accounts some of which are long and informative I think they may be of interest in your research, I did find a Family of Smiths with People named White traveling around Worksop in the 1800s then I found the marriage certificate of Joe White to Rowena Holmes born 1885. 1910 Transcription: at St.Johns Worksop Joseph White son of Joseph White general dealer to Rowena Holmes daughter of John Holmes general dealer, who everyone is or evan how they are related or just connected, I do not know, Worksop as many story's
Sheffield Independent Thursday 18 March 1880
Worksop Hunted Game with a Dog.—William Holmes known also as " Gipsy Holmes," who travels the country trading in horses
Derbyshire Courier Saturday 1 November 1879
Game Tresspass Elliott and Holmes Supt. Carlino said both men were gipsies, and it was with a very great difficulty that they had been able to serve the summons on the defendant. They had not yet succeeded in serving a summons on Holmes.
Sheffield independent Saturday 22 April 1871
WORKSOP. — At this court, on Wednesday, William Holmes, alias Gipsy Holmes, was fined for allowing a number of young horses to Stray
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald Saturday 5 March 1870
Death of a Well-known Character.—" Old Billy Holmes," Gipsy and horse dealer, and "Old Betty Holmes," his wife, have been very extensively known for many years in most parts of England, and also in Wales and Ireland too. For some time past named personage, "Old Betty," has been in a very precarious state of health, and on Sunday morning last she ceased to live. She was interred at Bolsover Church on Wednesday, in the presence of a large number of spectators. The funeral cortege was very extensive, the "Romany" tribe being strongly represented.
Derby Mercury 21 March 1866
EXTRAORDINARY CASE OF FORTUNE-TELLING. A swarthy gipsy, who gave the name of Mary Ann Holmes, was brought up on a charge of pretending to tell fortunes.
Nottingham Guardian 7 October 1864
CAUNTON. — Distressing Death of a Gipsy. — For some time past William Holmes, the well-known gipsy horse dealer, has, along with his family and a retinue of vans and horses, been camping in the yard of the Plough Inn on Sunday morning Dr. Beveridge visited and pronounced the girl to be in danger from small-pox. After great suffering, the poor girl died in the afternoon of the same day; her gipsy relations standing round in the open air weeping bitterly, and forcibly reminding one of those touching lines in the " Negro's Complaint" — " Fleecy locks and black complexion Cannot forfeit Nature's claim ; Skins may differ, but affection Dwells in white and black the same." It is hard, perhaps, to measure the doings of these rude followers of camp life with the habits of more civilized people, The deceased was very decently and respectably interred in Caunton churchyard on Tuesday afternoon. The relatives appeared in respectable mourning, and the corpse was carried by young women in white hoods. Much grief was manifested by the mourners at the grave, and all passed off in a very decorous manner.
Nottinghamshire Guardian Thursday 10 February 1859
Gipsy's Wedding.— Ann Holmes, " queen of the gipsies" in this neighbourhood.
Derbyshire Courier Saturday 2 June 1855
Releasing Sheep from a Pound.—Elizabeth Holmes was charged. Defendant belongs to the well-known family of the Holmes, generally called "Gipsy Holmes,” whose usual locality is in the neighbourhood of Bolsover, which they have infested, to the no small discomfort of the land occupier, for years.
Friday 23 April 1852 Lincolnshire Chronicle
Gipsy Wedding at Caunton.—On Monday the 12th inst, Samuel Holmes, son of Gipsy Holmes, of horse-dealing notoriety Considerable excitement was occasioned in the surrounding villages, and curiosity raised its highest pitch to witness on the arrival of the wedding party at Caunton church. several hundred respectable people, dressed in their holiday attire, assembled to celebrate the gipsy wedding. Holmes provided an 18-gallon barrel of ale and a liberal supply of gin for his friends. A fiddler being in attendance, dancing was got up and kept going with great spirit until It was dark
Derbyshire Couier Saturday 11 February 1843
Mr John Holmes, horse dealer, Miss Lydia Parker, both of Sutton Scarsdale, married on Wednesday last
Derbyshire Courier Saturday 17 June 1843
John Holmes, of Scarcliffe, a boy, was charged with wilfully damaging a field the property of Mr. Scorer, of Scarcliffe. The defendant is one of a family of gipsy horse-dealers, residing at Scarcliffe. Elizabeth Holmes, the mother of the defendant in the last case, was then charged with assaulting Joseph Heath, pinder, of Scarcliffe, by throwing a stone at him.
-
for all the Relatives who are researching the People I am writing about I would like to show you extracts 0f a few things to look out for, how the names can also just be spelt wrong, also see below how in one report People are stated as being Related, then not related, I put the story on about John Winter be course there maybe could be Relatives of His who have not seen the portrait before, also Mansfield is just down from Worksop, also most criminal chargers against Gipsies are down graded when all the facts are put to the courts, I have just one more post about the connections to Worksop then I will write my final story's, it should not take much longer, I hope I have been of help
Sheffield Independent Thursday 11 October 1906
GIPSY MELEE AT WORKSOP
Joseph Wiltshire a gipsy living in a van on some ground in Worksop. Regularly used for accommodation rented from Mr J. White, general dealer. Was brought up on remand charged with unlawfully wounding Hannah Wiltshire, who was also a gipsy being not related to the prisoner
Sheffield Daily Telegraph Saturday September 29 1906
Fracas in a Gipsy Camp. A sequel to a serious fracas amongst the gipsy women was heard at the Worksop Police Court yesterday, when an elderly member of the tribe named Joseph Willshire, was brought up on a charge of unlawfully wounding a relative named Hannah Willshire.
Sheffield Daily Telegraph Thursday 11 October 1906
A GIPSY MELEE AT WORKSOP. Joseph Wiltshire, an elderly man, a van dweller, was charged at Worksop with unlawfully wounding Hannah Wiltshire, Worksop, September 27, kicking her in the eye. The Magistrates’ Clerk, however, stated that, the Bench had decided to reduce the charge to one of common assault. -—He was sent to prison for six weeks’ hard labour.
Sheffield Independent Friday 31 January 1896
ALLEGED SERIOUS ASSAULT AT MANSFIELD. Joseph Wiltshire, a gipsy, surrendered to his bail on a charge of having grievously assaulted Henry Troop, — Dr. Graham Godfrey was called, and stated that prosecutor was quite unable to appear to give evidence, and would probably not be able to do so for some days. He was suffering from the effects of a severe kick in the lower part of the abdomen. which had caused the prosecutor to lose a great quantity of blood. It was quite possible he might not recover.— defendant on a warrant admitted causing the injuries because he (prosecutor) had been ill-using defendant's horse in the stable. "finally convicted of manslaughter"
Saturday November 7 1896 Yorkshire Evening Post
Portrait of black jack arrested at Bradford
reports below compiled from several records
John winter alias black jack of a swarthy complexion native of Otley and is a wandering Gipsy pot hawker who is wanted for wilful murder sentenced to five years penal servitude after finally being convicted of manslaughter
Sheffield Daily Telegraph Tuesday 15 March 1904
WORKSOP HAWKER'S SUDDEN END. Worksop there is a well-known plot of land usually called the "Gipsy camp" or "White's Park” to this the attention of the police was called on Sunday morning, by the information that John Renshaw, hawker, aged 53, had died suddenly during the night, Henrietta Smith said she had lived with the deceased for eight years, and had had ten children, of whom five were living.
Nottingham Evening Post Tuesday 16 January 1906
—Joseph Wiltshire, gipsy. Was charged with assaulting police constable Robinson at the Mansfield Horse Fair The officer was on duty at the fair, and whilst interfering in a row amongst gipsies he was thrown to the ground and kicked by Wiltshire
Saturday 13 February 1926
GIPSIES' AFFRAY ECHO. COURT SEQUEL TO SANDIACRE INCIDENT 1919. MALICIOUS WOUNDING CHARGE AT ILKESTON. affray, among the gipsies in which a shooting took place and one of the number William Wilshire was removed to the hospital with gunshot wounds in the legs, had a sequel to-day at Ilkeston, where Harry Wilshire, 37, of no fixed abode was charged with maliciously shooting William Wilshire, at Sandiacre, on May 21st, 1919, with intent to do him grievous bodily harm. Supt. Walker stated that a number of gipsies were encamped at Sandiacre including the two mentioned in the charge. They were all drinking together in a public house when a row commenced. The partys went into the street, and it was alleged that they got fighting, and firearms were discharged, William Wilshire and another man named Harry Wilshire, said to be his father, being wounded. Immediately after the shooting prisoner disappeared, and had been at large since. William Wilshire, also alias Brooks, stated that he knew the prisoner Harry Wilshire, who had a van in the same field .Sandiacre. They had all been drinking during the afternoon, and at half-past nine they were in a public-house. Witness and the prisoner then began arguing about a horse, and eventually began to fight. Then the whole party left the house and began fighting with one another in the street, the women also joining in the fight. Tom Wilshire, who had a gun, tried to part the prisoner. Witness took the gun off him, smashed it, and threw the parts into the hedge. The prisoner also had a gun, which he fired, and witness received seven or eight pellets in his leg, and was removed to the Ilkeston Hospital. Asked who fired the shots, witness said he believed both the prisoner and Tom Wilshire fired.
"this charge was finally much reduced to almost nothing, Henry got the blame"
-
Hi,
I've just noticed you have researched Plato Buckland, who's my Great Great Grandfather.
I'm interested if you have any further information please?
thank you
Kirsty Buckland :)
-
helo Kirsty, a good day to you, true I wrote of the Bucklands but was not or never have been researching them, I am truly a rubbish researcher, I just put on things I find for I,m a finder, I did find lots on the Bucklands but I,v thousands of pieces of paper and do not know how to sort the lot out, and I am finishing my writings soon, but if I come across anything in the future I will put it on before I go for good, I have been in Germany these last few days, I have been trying to research the history of the nazis, do you know time and time again people go on about that only the Jews are remembered, well I went to the place in Berlin that remembers the Jews, but while just walking about I also found the Dark Pool of the Gipsies, I was there but yesterday, its a Garden of Remembrance, there are glass panels engraved with the story's of the Gipsies through the thirty's until the dark days of the war, it is next to the Brandenburg Gate which is next to the Reichstag building, which houses the German parliament, a place of much history through out the agers, I hope to put on a few photos soon if the Moderators in their kindness allow me to, of course it as all to do with the bigger picture we must all seek, no matter if you are but the scrag end like me, or a mighty prince of your people, I know you and others will not know the history of these places I talk of but try to research them, try like you do in the same way that you research the census reports, try to research the bigger picture, see how the letters of words come alive, then you hopefully may feel the life's of all the Great Gipsies, then maybe to, one day like me you may also travel across Europe and go to the Garden of the Gipsies next to the Brandenburg Gate, I will help anyone in any way I can, but a researcher I am not, I will put on more about Worksop soon, I was just about to write more but I will leave it now for a while, it will just be normal everyday things, some may be right some may need a more in-depth looking at, for I know I must get much wrong, but my hope is to help Relations who like me look for the answers that guide us
click on this link then click on the photo links on the left hand side, I was standing round that pool yesterday
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gypsies+Memorial/@52.517498,13.375717,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xeea814221cb81ede!8m2!3d52.5173149!4d13.3760186?hl=en
click on this link for a brief history of the Gate
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiTk97M9IjTAhXkDMAKHbCWC5UQFgg7MAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.history.com%2Fnews%2Fbrandenburg-gate-a-brief-history&usg=AFQjCNGRYMAWT77dvh-CehzvdD0XbEW4nw
click on this link for some of the history of the Reichstag building, the Gipsy Dark Pool is between these two famous buildings in a quiet small woodland
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=14&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi746Cw9ojTAhUKI8AKHWTcBtEQFghiMA0&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.german-way.com%2Ftravel-and-tourism%2Fgermany-for-tourists%2Fcity-guides-germany%2Fberlin-and-potsdam%2Fthe-reichstag-in-berlin%2F&usg=AFQjCNGG0lZhyB0AG8bXWGhJFsFDF8irmQ
I took my own photos I will try and put a few on another time when I get them changed from my phone to the computer, they will be of the place of the Jews and the Gipsies
click on below for the place of the Jews
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Memorial+to+the+Murdered+Jews+of+Europe/@52.51693,13.3708568,16z/data=!4m12!1m6!3m5!1s0x0:0xeea814221cb81ede!2sGypsies+Memorial!8m2!3d52.5173149!4d13.3760186!3m4!1s0x0:0x1434a79012ee5bc8!8m2!3d52.5139471!4d13.3787124?hl=en
-
so this is the record of Angereena Boyling married to Frederick Wilsher that Sue sent me, then below on Sues web site named the Romany Jib, its a very good Web Site, there is a reference to a Stephen Boiling from Worksop so remember in your research to watch out for that name, I do not know nothing about the Family of the Boylings Boilings but I am sure they are Related to the People I write about
written by Sue
Angereena Boyling to Fred Wilsher Dec 1914 Doncaster
I.G.I. Entries.
Please Note* Transcribed as written with original spelling from the Original Index*
ASELLA BOYLEN Female
Christening: 26 MAY 1811: Eagle Lincoln
Parents: Father: George Boylen Mother: FRANETTA (Trinity) Notes*( George later wed Joyce Tanzy)
*
STEPHEN BOILING :Christening: 27 JAN 1815 Worksop, Nottingham
Parents: Father: GEORGE BOILING Mother: TRINITY
*
ELIZABETH BOILING :Christening: 15 FEB 1818 * Clarborough, Nottingham
Parents: Father: GEORGE BOILING :Mother TRINITY
*
1821 Absalom son of George and Trinity Boyling Wandering Gypsies. Scawby Lincs
then I found these small extracts on the Web Site named the British Genealogy, try and find this Site there are great research stories to be read
19-06-2009, 7:02 PM
Edward's older brother Henry William lived in a tent in a gypsy camp in Worksop, Notts on the 1901 census at Sandhills and was a hawker. Robert was a chair bottomer as was their father Edward who was born in Leicestershire in 1832. He married Elizabeth Whitworth from Wellow in Notts in 1856 and his father Edward was a potter according to their marriage certificate.
Henry Williams eldest son Frederick born about 1875 married Mary Wiltshire in 1899 so there was certainly a lot of inter marrying of families.
04-07-2009, 6:40 AM
There certainly appear to have been strong connections between the Smith, Gregory's and Wilshers.
I also found this talk on RootsChats Archive and it mentions the Worksop Smiths, then also Abbey Street Worksop, remember long back on here when I also wrote about a record of Abbey Street
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj5hJCdspTTAhUlKcAKHdAGBiQQFgghMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rootschat.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D199734.0&usg=AFQjCNE8tXalWdJ1E51_brfa-ArXPNjJcA
this is the record from Abbey Street I wrote about
1881* CENSUS* Abbey Street Worksop Notts
Israel Smith ...........................30 Chair Bottomer, Willow 20/2 Stattin Leics
Sarah Smith............................ 38 Church Anston York
John Smith.............................. 6 Scholar Mansfield, Notts
Abigail Smith............................6mo Worksop Notts
Hannah Smith........................... 63 mother Boston Lincs
Elderi Smith............................24 dau Welton Lincs
Wisdom Smith........................... .2 son Retford Lincs
//
Street Address*Abbey Street Worksop Nottingham .
Rudolfa Smith........................... 30 head/Hawker b Willoughton, Lincs
Mary A Smith............................ 27 Newark,b Notts
Edward Smith ............................10 Scholar b Thorpe Salvin Yorkshire
William Smith.............................8 Scholar b Bothamsall, Notts
Mary A Smith .............................6 Scholar b Bolsover Derby
Drucella Smith............................4 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Rudolfa Smith.............................1 b Chesterfield, Derby
Thomas Wilsher....................... 22 Hawker born Sheffield, Yorkshire Cousin
Hannah Wilsher....................... 23 Hawker born Thorne, Yorkshire
Mary A Wilsher........................ 10-months born Mansfield, Nott
then on the web site named The Romani another good Web Site, I found these records so look for all these names in your research, plus maybe below it should say Retford which is very close to Worksop, not Redford but I may be wrong
Web site the Romani
GREAGORY, Fread Head Married M 35 1876 Labourer Redford Nottinghamshire
GREAGORY, Mary Wife Married 12 years F 30 1881 Hawker Mansfield Nottinghamshire
WILLSHER, Anner Brother Widower F 50 1861 Hawker Redford Nottinghamshire
GREAGORY, Amaey Daughter F 11 1900 School Redford Nottinghamshire
GREAGORY, Viney Daughter F 9 1902 School Redford Nottinghamshire
GREAGORY, Angraner Daughter F 5 1906 Redford Nottinghamshire
GREAGORY, Seatty Daughter F 3 1908 Redford Nottinghamshire
GREAGORY, Fread Son M 0 (3 MONTHS) 1911 Redford Nottinghamshire
SMITH, Ted Relative Married M 30 1881 Labourer Redford Nottinghamshire
SMITH, Anner Wife Married 3 years F 27 1884 Hawker Lincon Lincolnshire
so all these names and stories above seam to be in some way connected to the People I am writing about, I do hope I have been of help to People Related who one day may find these words, also Sue as a few Web Sites like the Romany Genes Web Site, so along with the other Web Sites I mention, try and search through them for they have much information
-
page 1
Helo, would there be anyone who would kindly be able to help, I am trying to research the Camps and Familys around Nottingham, one of those Camps was Hawthorne street, one of the Familys were named Bacon, I think they could be related to the Smiths, it does not matter where the story goes, I just want to learn the truth, Vince once wrote, " The Gipsies are a great Mosaic," Vince comes from the Old Old Gipsies known by the name of Smith, if you read below this is how the story starts, do you see how Billy Bacon and His Family were not evan given a name, they were described as…. So _called Gipsies, and then Daniel Boswell was described as…So _ called King of the Gipsies, I suppose you can be to much of a Gipsy, and other times not, do you see also how the grave stone was unreadable, this in 1953, more evidence of the stone not being replaced by Harrison
AFFAIRS OF EGYPT 1909
By T.W. Thompson
These notes are compiled almost entirely from the large volume weighing seven pounds of Press cuttings “Some so called Gypsies were evicted from a camping ground in Hawthorne Street, Nottingham”.
Article extract taken from the Romany Jib web Side
Written by Sue
(1888-1968)Thomas William Thompson was a collector of Romany folklore mainly from the North of England and Midlands’s area.
He began collecting tales when a schoolmaster at Repton. In the early twentieth century he carefully recorded stories in his notebooks from the English Gypsy families of Gray, Smith and Boswell, as well as also drawing up genealogical family trees of some of the Gypsies he became friendly with.
A collection of his works is held at the University of Leeds, Brotherton Library.
Thompson's work was also published in the Journal of the Gypsy lore Society, one such work which has helped many Smith researchers is the Smith family tree of
Ambrose Smith who was made famous by George Borrow's book's Lavengro and the Romany Rye and better known as the character "Jasper Petulengro".
THE NEW AGE
A WEEKLY REVIEW OF POLITICS LITERATURE AND ART.
THURSEDAY FEBRUARY 29 1912
George Borrow and his New Biographer. By T. W. Thompson. PAGE 422 extract
OWING to the tremendous difficulties which he sets him- self to overcome, every biographer of George Borrow must be prepared to accept failure, partial or complete, as the most probable result of his labours. When Mr. Murray published Dr. W. I. Knapp’s official life some thirteen years ago disappointment was the dominant note of the public and private criticisms that the book evoked. It was the result of half a lifetime’s loving and careful research, and did, indeed, supply us with a tolerably good, but still imperfect, skeleton of facts. What remained for Mr. Herbert Jenkins, the author of the new “Life of George Borrow,” to do was to perfect this skeleton and to clothe it with flesh and blood.
when he was wandering about and forming the acquaintance of Gypsies and “bruisers” and all kinds of odd people met by the way- side; when he was acquiring his knowledge of horse- flesh and strange tongues; when, with the bitter agony of a proud spirit, he was struggling unsuccessfully “to adapt, not himself to the universe, but the universe to himself,” and to earn his daily bread at the same time. These were the years that, rather than any other, made Borrow into the strange, unlovely, fascinating man that we know. Mr. Jenkins’s treatment of them is scanty, though, had he only realised their importance, this would have been more or less excusable, seeing how little we know about them from sources other than
“ Lavengro” and “The Romany Rye.” To decide how much of these books to accept as actual fact, and when, where, and exactly how much to discount for colouring and heightening and other dramatic effects, is a task that still awaits accomplishment.
BRITANNIA AND EVE-SUNDAY 1 MARCH 1953 PAGE 16
THE WAY TO CHURCH
BY GARTH CHRISTIAN extract
“Let me caution you against being in a hurry” wrote the nineteenth_ Century gardener Loudon, in an article for young gardeners, “Walking fast in the street is a sign of vulgarity”.
Two years ago when I walked up the path into Ashbourne Church, thousands of daffodils, though bent by the cold north winds, continued to bloom a full three weeks after my own in a Sussex garden had died. Almost as late were the spring flowers in the smoke-swept Churchyard at Selston in Nottingham-Shire, where the way to Church lies beside the grave of Dan Boswell, a so-called King of the Gipsies. It is a pity one can no longer decipher his epitaph which once read,
” I’ve lodged in many a town, I’ve travelled many ayear, but death at length has brought me down to my last longings here".
Garth Christian was a nature writer, editor, teacher and conservationist. After becoming a full-time freelance writer, he wrote for newspapers and magazines He wrote a number of books on conservation and ornithology, one of which in 1961 was known as "A Victorian Poacher James Hawker's Journal". He was born in a Derbyshire vicarage coming from the same Family line as Fletcher Christian (25 September 1764 – 20 September 1793) of the noted story, “mutiny on the bounty,” who was a Masters Mate on board the HMS Bounty during Lieutenant William Bligh’s voyage to Tahiti, Christian seized command of the ship 28 April 1789
next I will write a few pagers of what I have found, if someone could answer the questions I then ask, I would be most grateful.
-
page two
helo, I have been trying to find records of camps around Nottingham, I am at present writing about the one I found at Hawthorne Street, sadly it as long since gone in the redevelopment of the Meadows, I am also still trying to find all the old camping grounds around the City of my birth, i wish to learn and understand as much as I can, in turn I wish to share the things I find, I know one day someone will find them, then they will also understand, well I just came across this report below, see now how there was once a camp site at Radford, Radford is just up from Lenton, that is one of the places where the Herons stayed, Lenton is just up from the Meadows where Hawthorne Street Kings Meadow Road is, which intern connects to the Marshes then Sneinton and St Ann's, all these places are rich in untold history, there will be more places to find to, Radford is now in inner City Nottingham, but back in the 1800s it would of been on the outskirts of the City, see also how John Gray also seems to be married to Charlotte Hammond, it was her daughter I thought he was with, Charlotte is a Great Gipsy Woman of High Class, I hope these records will be of help to someone, and if anyone finds any records of Radford Nottingham would you please be kind enough to transcribe them on here, plus Hawthorne Street, I will finish writing about the records of these People above maybe tomorrow, it might take two pages, then I will return to the stories of the camp at Hawthorne Street to show you what I have found then hopefully someone may be able to assist with my researchers
Nottinghamshire Guardian-Thursday 10 January 1861
Shire Hall, Nottingham.
Sat.-(Before R Birkin, S.B.Wild, W. Needam, and W.Hannay, Esqs.)
Radford. Life in the Gipsy Camp.-A gipsy named John Gray, of sombre cast of contenance, appeared in answer to a charge of assaulting a woman named Charlotte Hammond, whom he had espoused in conformity with “the marriage laws and customs of gisydom.” The complainant, a fortune-teller by profession, stated that on Tuesday night, the defendant struck her and injured her very much about the head, she was living with him at Radford at the time of the assault. The defendant commenced beating the woman’s daughter very violently, wherest the complainant became irritated and declared she would not stand by to see him brutally ill-treat her own child in that manner. The complainant gave satisfactory proof of defendant’s ill-usage, and said he had behaved to her like a demon. He denied the charge, but the bench placed to much reliance on the woman’s testimony to doubt that considerable violence had been inflicted upon her, and the defendant was fined 16s, 6d. Including expenses.
Nottingham Journal Monday 7Jauary 1861
Disturbance among the Gipsies.
John Gray was charged with threatening language to Charlotte Hammond, on Tuesday evening last, at Radford. The parties were of the gipsy tribe, and during the disturbance one with another in their camp, the defendant threatened to murder complainant. After hearing the case, the magistrate ordered the defendant to be bound over in his own recognizances to keep the peace towards the complainant for six months. And to pay the expenses, amounting to 16s, 6d.
to be continued.......
Katherine Briggs Dictionary of British Folk Tales in the English Language, Taylor Francis, 1991.
Reuben Gray, Gus Gray Old Radford, Nottingham.
Sunday 26th November, 1815 St. Peters Baptized Mary Ann Boswell -Zecharias - Sarah Boswell Radford Nottingham
Nottingham Journal Tuesday 22 March Nottinghamshire Guardian Friday 25 March 1881 extracts
John Boswell a gipsy was charged with cruelty to a horse,-Sergeant Aldridge met the prisoner at Fawcett Street Radford, he was in charge of a horse attached to a van laden with tents and other things with which he travelled with, prisoner said he was on the way to Retford
-
Page three
Helo everyone
A good day to you all, well the article above about Charlotte Hammond and John Gray is I think, related to the article I am about to show you, it is a most fantastic account, one of , if not the best I have come across, it will take at least two pages to transcribe, I know it will be of great interest to everyone, again it is in my own City of Nottingham, I think these are those Old Original Gipsies, when I read of them, I hear them talking, and the Shire Hall is next to St Marys overlooking the old Marshes, you can now visit the Shire Hall and go into the same cells as they were remanded to, plus you may also go in the very same court room where the accounts I write of took place, the Shire Hall is now called the Galleries of Justice, it’s a museum, if these are your Relations come to Nottingham and stand where they stood, I walk in a City of many ghosts, everywhere I know and go was once walked and known by the Peoples I write about, there everywhere, I do hope I have helped someone, and will always do so, now after these accounts I now write over two pagers, I will then write about The stories of the Family named Bacon, well I will try anyway, I hope this to, will be of help, remember all the Old People, all of them count, you must always respect all of them, they were just People getting by the best way they could.
http://www.galleriesofjustice.com/
click on this link above to learn of the Old ShireHall now the Galleries of Justice Museum
Nottinghamshire Guardian Thursday 21 October 1858
The Zingari.—A curious scene transpired at the ShireHall on Saturday last. An athletic fellow, standing very little short of six feet, named John Gray, was charged before the right hon. Lord Belper, and a full Bench of Magistrates, with assaulting Levina Lee, another member of the Zingari or Gipsy tribe. The complainant stated that Gray, who had been in their camp three yeares, had been reproved for walking out at night with her sister, and in consequence of this he attacked Levina and lacerated her arm. Witness showed several marks of blows, and ges-ticulated violently. It appeared from the evidence of another witness who was called, that Gray had grasp of a bill hook in his hand and threatened to do murder with it, is menaces being directed towards Levina Lee. Gray prayed the Magistrates to remand him till Saturday in order to bring witnesses for his defence, which was accordingly done.-Vashti Lee, the sister who had been the cause of all this violence, was then put in the dock on a charge pre-ferred by her own mother of stealing a valuable ring. She had the aquiline nose, chiselled features, and expressive face, which are generally the characteristics of this wander-ing race; dressed with great taste, wearing a feathered hat. Her mother said she was her own child, adding with some feeling, I would not hurt she. The Bench, who appeared to be greatly interested in the case, demanded the particulars, which the old woman declined to give, repeat-ing, she my own child, I would not hurt she. The daughter then gave an account of how she became possessed of the jewel. It originally belonged to her grandmother, whom she tended in her last sickness, but no one was present at her death. She left no will, dying in the middle of the night. The ring was pledged at pawnbrokers in Lincoln, and redeemed by herself, for 8s.6d. As com-plainant declined to press the charge, she was set at liberty, and the mother demanded the ring. My ring, no gentle-men my ring if you please, my ring! Exclaimed the black eyed daughter; and as it was handed to her at the noble Chairman’s request, she burst into tears, and shaking her finger at her mother, said you want to punish me, but ya can’t. Never mind Vashti, never mind, exclaimed the rebating voice of her dark adorer as he was conveyed to his remanded cell.
to be continued..........
-
page Four
This is the last of the Great stories I will tell from the writings above, may they all rest in Peace, everything is contained in the stories, I think everything is there, Passion, Love, Forbidden Love, Family Ways, life really, there is so much if you but feel into the words, its all there, I was just looking on Sues web site the Romany Jib and found this article, I was only having a look, I don't really know what I am doing, I was just trying to find information on Charlotte Hammond, I wonder if the People I have been writing about are the same as those in the link below
http://www.gypsyjib.com/thread/5202233/Vashti+%2F+Wasti+LEE+daughter+of+Zachariah+%26+Charlotte+wo+John+GRAY
then I just looked on RootsChat Archives and have been reading through this thread, once again I don't know who is who, I was only looking for camp sites round Nottingham, but you never know some of the information contained in the stories I write about may be of help in your research, I thought the comment made by Vashti's Mother was telling when She repeatedly said " she's my own child, I would not hurt she." its how you read into words I guess, I will not comment no more on this, maybe I see things wrongly. this is the link from RootsChat, http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=332980.0
Nottingham shire Guardian Thursday 28 October 1858
The Gipsy Again- At the ShireHall, on Saturday last, John Gray was charged on remand with assaulting Levina Lee, who did not appear in support of the charge. He had been a prisoner a week on this accusation, having requested the Magistrates to remand him for that period in order to procure witnesses for the defence. Another charge was also made against him-that of breaking the peace in an assault upon Jacob Kirk, with a bill hook, at Bulwell, on Friday week, but the complainant appeared and said he did not wish to press the charge, but merely sought to have the prisoner bound over. As he did not enter into the particulars, the bench said Gray would be dismissed on promising not to offend again.- Gipsy; I will. I'll say nothing to him no more. I don't blame dis gentleman.-Lord Belper: There is 12s. to pay-Gray said he had not got the money, but his mother, a wizened frightful- looking old jade, came forwards and produced a sovereign from the inner folds of a vile dirty handkerchief, and the prisoner was then discharged.
ps, Bulwell is just past Basford, Basford is next to Radford, Hucknall comes after Bulwell, Hucknall is the Boswells land, remember all these places, plus Arnold, they will assist you in your search
I did find in the Nottingham Evening Post, Friday 20 January 1893 another Vashti, She was living or staying at 1 Bailey-Street Old Basford, and was a Fortune-teller, She was known as Vashti Butler-Gipsy, I think She was of the famous Derbyshire Boswells, I may be wrong but Linda as a photo of Her on Her web site...http://www.romanyboswell.com/
also would someone be able to help in one of my other researchers, I am trying to find where Daniel Boswells Wife Sarah was buried, I know from Richard She went to St Marys next to the ShireHall same as my own Mother, but I have been looking and there was three old grounds back then for the graves, I have found lots of interesting stories, but if someone already knows would you please answer my request, I put on below the story of Young Moses Holmes, do you see the punishment He was given, boy ho boy, I will not comment no more on such a thing, you could half kill someone and nigh on nothing happened yet you steal a few things and your well locked up, may you rest in Peace Young Moses
below is what Richard wrote, then the link to the Grave Yards of St Marys, if any one can help in this research I would welcome your thoughts
Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #36 on: Monday 02 November 15 22:28 GMT (UK) »
Quote by Richard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Mary's_Church,_Nottingham
This is the church where Sarah was buried, in Nottingham city itself Michael.
Lewis' son Frampton Boswell, age 20 was also buried at St Mary's, Eastwood, Nottinghamshire, ten months after his father on 28th December 1835.
Yes my local church is also a St Mary's, was baptised there. I suppose it was most common dedication for the churches built before the break with Rome, when worship of the virgin was more common.
this is the link below I found to the stories of the Grave Yards of St Marys,
http://southwellchurches.nottingham.ac.uk/nottingham-st-mary/xburialgrds.php
below is the story of Young Moses Holmes, my Mother spoke well of the Holmes with Great Respect
Nottinghamshire Guardian -Thursday 16 May 1861
Moses Holmes, a young urchin of the gipsy tribe, and twelve years' of age, was charged by phillip scarborough, gamekeeper, with having stolen that morning, at the parish of Sutton- in Ashfield, stolen 14lbs: weight of bones from a field in the occupation of sarah bagshaw. committed for one months hard labour in Southwell house of correction.
I will now talk of the Family named Bacon, I could really do with some help, there are so many contradictions and possibility's, I will write a few pages then ask a few questions, it may take a while, but try and read the story as an hole at the end, I do hope someone will be able to help me sort it out, believe me, this one is an hard one to understand, even the mighty Sue would struggle on this one ?
-
page five merrmm https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/21061/PPPF_Full_Report.pdf
"My name is Henry Elliott, also known as Stamford and my Dads Family was always known as the Bacons, the Bacons boys and I am also known as Henry Bacon"
this above is an extract from the link above, I just want to show all the many records of the Great Family of Bacons that I have come across in the research of Hawthorne street Kings Meadow Road, of course know the Bacons from the South may have nothing to do with the Bacons I am writing of, I am just trying to see the bigger picture, I have maybe over a hundred reports of southern Bacons, I do know Gipsies were mixed long before the time of the so called scholars, I will elaborate later, I once again looked at the Roots Chat Archive and found more mysteries, I have from the very start been talking of Selston, also Hawthorne Street, and Worksop, and now in someway the Bacons link all these locations, study the link that I am going to show you, then hopefully maybe someone would kindly help
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=75448.0
I have many records to put on soon of this Family of Bacons, all those stories from the link above points to a Great Gipsy Connection, look at this I think this is the Ambrose from the stories I will tell later, I think the Bacons, Smiths, Elliott's, Woodward's are Family
http://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/rollofhonour/People/Details/24845
there to are many many Bacons going back over hundreds of yeares in Nottinghamshire, I think people could be getting people mixed up in their research, there is multiple Bacons with the same name and time scale plus location, I am not able to understand what is true, you can not trust dates on records, hopefully someone will help me in this research
Nottingham evening post Wednesday 14 June 1916
WORK-SHY & UNREGISTERED.
GRAVE CHARGES AGAINST NOTTINGHAM YOUTHS.
Two described as van-dwellers, were remanded at the Nottingham Shire Hall this morning upon charges of having obtained money by false pretences from a local engineering firm.In the case of the first defendant, William Smith, the Deputy Chief constable said he was unattested and unregistered. The other defendant was a youth named Ambrose Bacon, who said he was only 17, but Mr. Harrop remarked that he had been unable find his birth certificate.
He was, however, quite willing to " join the army. "
1894
Emily Bacon, Gipsy hawker met a young woman, the wife of a labourer, and told her that her future would be full of trouble if she did not part with half-a-crown and some articles of clothing. Having got these, the Zingari undertook to "rule the young woman's planet." But the heavenly body lacks a ruler just now for the Loughhorouph magistrates have sent Emilv Bacon to gaol for two months.
1866
Emily Nowby, alias Bacon, hawker, Selston, was charged by Elizabeth Woodward, of Castle Donington, hawker, with assaulting her Husband, on the 27th Nov. Prisoner admitted the charge, but said she did so under circumstances of great provocation from the complainant. The Bench having heard the evidence of the prosecution, and the filthy language said to be used by each side, dismissed the charge, considering one as bad as the other. —The parties are step-sisters.
I will write much more soon but I think truthfully I can not bring the full truth up and now ask someone to read into the first reports I have found and help in the knowledge you have of the navigation of the census reports, I have found many reports of these People above linked together, what is the real truth, maybe we will find out, I suppose it is the story and evolution that echoes the birth of many Gipsy Family's, but this story could go anyway, I wonder will we find the truth
http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/10199/
I ask everyone to read the two papers written by the Person from the link above, I think there are many truths that are written, take your time and read every word, so many writers from the past in the future will be shredded by the ones to come, I will write more soon on the connected storys of the Bacons with the Smiths Woodwards Elliotts and my county of Nottinghamshire not to mention Hawthorne street, Kings Meadow Road
these maps will help you in your research, on the last one you will find the Street where John Boswell was traveling with his van, Forster Street Radford, not the fawsett street that I put on in the above post, plus find Bosworth Road where Billy Bacon pushed His Van into a yard when His Family where moved on from the land next to Hawthorne Street Kings Meadow Road the Meadows, everything is there for you to find, use the maps to locate locations in other stories, you will find Bailey Street Basford where Vashti Butler was staying, see how locations link up, I was born where it says newark Street Sneinton, Letty lived on the same Street as I was born on, you may also look at the Narrow Marsh below St Marys and see the prison house where John Gray was remanded to
http://www.nottsheritagegateway.org.uk/places/villages/nottsparishes1835.pdf
http://www.nottsheritagegateway.org.uk/themes/poverty/poorlawunions1850.pdf
http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/resources/maps/ZoomifyExpress4-Win/nottingham1902.htm
-
page six
If you click on the link that I wrote on the last post above about the grave of Ambrose Bacon you will then find another link, I will put them on below in order, there are three steps you follow, all todo with the grave record and what is wrote on the grave, well you may see then who was the person that wrote the words, these are the links..... first click on this link
http://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/rollofhonour/people/Details/24845
then you will see where you can click on this link CWGS. Web Site. It is the commonwealth War Graves Site.http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/4028111/
you will then see where it says.
CWGC ARCHIVE ONLINE (4)
Grave Registration (2)
Headstone (2)
if you click on Headstone (2). you will be able to read what is wrote at the bottom of the grave and who wrote it, this below is what is wrote on that record
"Not forgotten by his loving Brother John and Family"
then it also mentions Johns address. (Mr. J. Bacon Caravan, Burn St., off Garden Lane Sutton.in.Ashfield
Look on the story below, it is the same name and address. I think John, Ambrose and Charles are Williams and Emily's Sons, was Emily an Elliott, I am sure there is a Gipsy conection with this Family, when and how it starts is yet unknown to me, would anybody please be able to help I will write more records soon, it seems so far William married Emily way back the 1860s, I have several stories of the Smiths Woodwards and Elliotts, all with these Bacons, look again at the Rootschat archive link above, then read all the stories as one on the last page I write, I think I have maybe a few more pages, then I do hope someone will help, also look below at the story with the Boylings and the Bacons
Nottingham Evening Post Friday 21 February 1936
ALLEGED FALSE PRETENCES AT TIBSHELF.
HIS STORY TO A LOCAL TRADER.
John James Bacon. 53, Hawker, of Garden Lane Burns Street Sutton-in-Ashfield was brought up in custody at Clay Cross to-day and remanded on a charge of attempting to obtain seven pounds by false pretences from George Stanley Clark, at Tibshelf, on February 20th. Bacon visited Mr. Clarks shop and asked to be allowed to leave his kit bag until the following day.
This permission was granted.
Returning to the shop the next morning Bacon opened the bag and took out two rugs, one of which he represented to be a Persian, and the other a Russian. Bear skin, these he offered to sell to Clark for seven pounds. Bacon stated that he was a sailor and had sailed the seven seas, adding that he had been shipwrecked four times. He wished to get back to Liverpool, and was therefore, trying to sell the rugs at considerably less than their value. P.C Kelly who happened to be in the shop at the same time overheard the conversation and being suspicious took Bacon into custody.
Bacon remanded.
Nottingham Evening Post Saturday July 1916
DISCRACFULL SCENES AT HUCKNALL.
HAWKERS FINED.
At the Nottingham Shire Hall today a description was given of a disgraceful scene which was enacted on the Annesley–road at Hucknall, late on Thursday night.
Three men living in caravans. Richard Boyling aged 29, Walter Boyling, 56 and William Bacon 44, Hawkers, of no fixed abode. The defendants had been to the Mansfield Fair they were stated by the Police to have been “mad drunk” when arrested the younger Boyling and Bacon struggled kicked and resisted the officers. Stones and bottles were also thrown, the officers showed signs of having been knocked about. The Boylings were fined 15s. Each, or seven days, for being drunk and disorderly, Bacon one pound 1s, and each of the three was fined two pounds 2s, or 21 days for the assault on the Police, the Chaiman (Mr. G. Fellows), said the Police must be protected from ruffians.
Just a side note... they were defended by Mr. H. B. Clayton, another name that appears in associated stories.
Saturday 26 November 1892 Derbyshire Courier
Chesterfield County Police Courts. This Friday- Charles Bacon of Selston and Richard Elliott, two gipsies who have been camping round Hardwick during the last few days were charged by Mr. George Page, head Gamekeeper for the Hardwick Estate, and before Mr. Carrington with using dogs in the purpose of taking game on Wednesday.
A young woman of Ault. Hucknall. Named Woodbine, deposed to watching the men, they had three dogs and killed two hares.
The prisoners were remanded to the petty sessions
Tuesday 29 November 1892 Derbyshire Courier
Gipsies Fined for Poaching.
Charles Bacon and Richard Elliott were charged on remand for using dogs for taking hares; at Ault Hucknall- John Wright a farmer said he saw two caravans, together with four men and women with two dogs. He saw the hare run into a field belonging to Holmwood Colliery. The two dogs followed and killed the hare, one of the men picked up the hare.-Mr Middleton, for the defence, pleaded guilty for the charge where Bacon was concerned, but said Elliott took no part what so ever in the matter- Their Worships fined each defendant 1 pound and costs or 14 days imprisonment.
ps... in the previous post on page five about Emily Nowby, alias Bacon, hawker, Selston, the name of the newspaper was the Ilkeston Pioneer-Thursday 29 November 1866 titled the "FEMININE ROW "
on the same post in 1894 was the story about Emily fortune-telling at Loughborough which is just south of Nottingham, the paper is the Cornishmen- Thursday 6 December 1894, titled the "SEERESS".
-
page seven
I just want to help people who like me are looking for answers, it is a lot harder than I thought, just keep trying, try to learn from others, there are many ways to slip up, it is great fun researching, just keep an open mind on everything, I put this information on below to show and help you, for when you see and read of how I am struggling, it may help you to see how easy it is to find information, yet is it the information you seek, Selston back the 1800s was maybe only populated by a few hundred People, and that could be an overestimate, yet there's Bacons everywhere I look, literally everywhere doing everything, it would take me a least a year just to talk about them, there's hundreds all over Nottinghamshire, and the same names,
roots web
Subject: HARPER/BACON
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:47:03 HARPER - Robert born Barney, Norfolk - married Mary Ann Bacon from Hindolveston, at Selston, Notts, in 1868. He became a miner and had children Jane Ann, J.C., Maria, Matilda, George, Harry, Bertha - all born at Selston - and William born at Bulwell.
BACON - Charles - born Brinton, Norfolk, married Ann Codling from Hindolveston - parents of Mary Ann - moved to Selston around 1863 and became a gamekeeper. Had children Mary Ann b Hindolveston, Samuel Robert, George, William, Elisha, Susan Jane, Thomas - all born Annesley - and James born Tithby.
as you may read above there is a Charles Bacon born in Norfolk who becomes a Gamekeeper in Selston in the 1860s, you would think that was an easy clue, but just read this below, it is great fun looking for clues and true when you find things you feel good about it, yet the untruth is you can find information and create a true story, history is so full of names and dates connected to many the story that may be joined but truthfully they may lead you down the wrong road, so from reading the story above I found a Gamekeeper from Selston named Bacon, but it is before the timescale stated above, boy ho boy, my head is spinning, where do all these Bacons keep coming from, there's many many Bacons who were Gamekeepers all round the country, wow is all I'll say.
Nottinghamshire Guardian 1855-Charles Bacon Gamekeeper-Selston.
Sheffield Independent-1881-Francis Bacon-Gamekeeper.
Western Gazette-1880-William Bacon-Gamekeeper.
Essex Newsman-1877-George Bacon-Gamekeeper.
Sheffield Independent-1847-John Bacon-Gamekeeper.
Chelmsford Chronicle-1910-George Bacon-Gamekeeper.
Beverley and East Riding Recorder-1891-William Bacon Gamekeeper.
Dorset County Chronicle-1866-George Bacon-Gamekeeper.
Derbyshire Advertiser and Journal-1868-Samuel Bacon-Gamekeeper.
Northampton Mercury-1892-Henry Bacon-Gamekeeper.
Derbyshire Courier-1856-William Bacon-Gamekeeper.
Chelmsford Chronicle-1853-John Bacon- Gamekeeper.
there are many more Gamekeeper stories with the name Bacon in, some of them really interesting, I just wanted to help anyone who like me is trying to find information from past history, be careful not to get to carried away, you may make a story out of many things, just try and try to find several stories that link up, around Selston I have found Bacons winning flower shows and the best vegetables in farm contests, I have found Band Masters named Bacon from Selston over a hundred years ago, there are Bacons buried in the same Church Yard as Daniel Boswell, there are Bacons on the same Church walls in Plaques, I could put on a hundred stories of records of Bacons who from the dates and locations seem to link up with who I am trying to find yet they may not have a single connection to which I am seeking, just be careful in your search, I do not know how Sue finds all the information She does, I would say it takes years to become remotely evan half good at Genealogy
look at this story below, maybe this is how Daniel Boswell became the past down legend in Selston known by oral history as a King, seems they used to give names like that back the 1800s to maybe important people as they would see through their own eyes in their own time, maybe it was just the way Selston people spoke, it was probably just a Name that locals used for what they perceived as leaders, so Daniel Boswell may have been revered and seen as a leader by the Gipsies, for in those days I have read accounts of big Tribes traveling around, the locals just maybe said look did you know the King of the Gipsies as just died at Pye Hill, the name then was just passed down through oral legend, Daniel Boswells Family maybe just wrote the words on His Gravestone that Richard found, not the ones that are on the modern stone from the seventy's, this could be the truth, or maybe not who knows, we may find more, an opened mind is needed.
Derbyshire Advertiser and Journal Friday 15 October 1858
EVADING THE TOLL.
George Salmon, labourer, of Selston Nott's, was charged by John Bingham, of Pye Bridge, toll collector with having on the 23rd of August, passed through his gate without having payed the usual toll. It appeared from the evidence of Bingham and his wife, that the defendant after passing through the gate, put on additional horses to draw the load. Salmon said the horse was lame, and he only put on another horse in is place, and called James Webster, better known as the "King of Selston", who said the horse was quite lame and unfit for work.
Fined 5s. and expenses 1 pound 3s. 6d.
-
Hello Everyone
It is almost a hundred years to the day that Ambrose Bacon died, 17th August 1917, so now this will be the last time I talk. I will be here years if I don’t stop talking, i have so many Family records, plus many accounts of things like Customs, they help to form the bigger picture that we all must seek, so I will just finally finish after this last talking post with a few posts with only the dates and names on, if any of the names are names you are researching you then may look the story up if they are of interest to you, this way will be the quickest way for me to go without letting no one down, it would just take to long to carry on the way I have been writing, I do hope Some of you have been helped by my writings, below is my last words, I think the writers of the past were right about looking for Customs and Language to find the Old Romany Family’s, but this did not mean they were the Originals ones, everything that happened in these lands also happened in all the lands of the far past, in every land there was always the Originals, in every land other People joined along with their local words, in the beginning of our times the Gipsies from all those lands with all those words put roots down here, through these roots many more Family’s were born, Elik said if you have but one drop in you, and it lives, you belong to the Gipsies, my Mother would talk about finding my way back by turning my cloths inside out, the bad spirits would not be able to see me, this is why below the turf was on Major Boswells chest, it was to trick the bad spirits, they would think He was already buried and the grass had grown over His grave, I learned all these things, my Mother also taught me ways how to reverse evil things, send them back to the Sender, and from the very beginning the Mokody, you must never forget that good Spirits you may talk to, Good Luck to Everyone, these below are just extracts to help you understand how hard it is to find the right names on records and also look for the Strangest of things, if its the truth you seek.
Nottinghamshire Guardians Thursday 25 November 1852
SHOCKING DEATH OF A GIPSEY. - On the 18th inst. Mr Coroner Swan held an inquest on the body of a man unknown at the Seven Stars Arnold. William Young’s, who stated he was 70 years of age and had been a Gypsey all his life, said he had seen the man many times. He went by the name of Robin Woods, and was also a Gypsey, Sometimes he travelled about the Country by himself and sometimes he joined a company of Gipsies and travelled with them for a time, then he left them to join another company. He often took the name of the party with which he joined and consequently was called by different names. He was last with witness on Monday night at his camp in Lime lane, Arnold. On Tuesday witness moved his camp to Basford Lane.
Daly Gazette for Middlesbrough Thursday 2 December 1915
TRACED BY FINGER PRINTS-Charges preferred at Stockton to-day against James Allen 22, John Boswell 22, and also James Smith 21. The defendants were further charged under the Aliens Restriction Act. On enquiries being made to Scotland Yard it was found that Allen’s proper name was Lowther, Smiths real name was Wilshaw, and Boswell was Wilkinson. Defendants were natives of Sheffield and were strangers to the Town; they had very bad Police records.
Staffordshire Advertiser Saturday 21 May 1870
DEATH OF A PATRIACHAL GIPSY-Major Boswell who for the last seven years has made a tent on the Stone Road, Longton, his principle place of abode, died on Sunday at the advanced age of 108 years. The body was “laid out” in caricature Gipsy style. He lies “instate” on a bed on the ground, covered with a white sheet, and a tuft of grass on the chest. The part of the tent where the body lies is lined with white, decorated with flowers, a picture of the Saviour, and wax candles on either side.
Hull Packet Friday 17 April 1840
LITERARY AND PHILOSPHICAL SOCIETY
On Tuesday evening, the following interesting lecture was given by T, Thomson, Esq,
“ It as struck me, that all the essays I have read on the subject now under consideration, have disregarded the accounts delivered by the Gipsies themselves, or, if any attention as been given to those accounts delivered by the Gipsies on their first arrival in Europe, were genuine and correct statements of facts. No doubt some parts of those accounts were misunderstood, from the difficulty that would exist in Europeans quite ignorant of the language of the Gipsies to understand them, and a corresponding difficulty in the Gipsies understanding their European questioners, they appeared in small bodies or hordes, each having its own Leader, sometimes called a Count, at other times a Duke, it is quite apparent that the appellations Duke and Count are not of Eastern origin, and so as the Gipsies first attracted notice in the smaller states of Germany, which were presided over by Dukes or Counts, it is evident either the Gipsies translated the title applied by them to their own Chief, or, vice versa, that the Germans of those states, called the Chiefs of the Gipsies, Dukes, Counts, be course such were the titles of their own Chiefs, just as we call the head Chief of Otaheitee, Owhyhee, “King” of these Islands, be course we are ourselves are presided over by Kings, and in England Gipsies are generally reputed to have a King, over the hole, though each Family seems to be governed by its own Head”.
-
hello everyone, I will soon be putting on my last writings, I will finish first with the story of the Bacons then I think I may put on all that I have left of the very sad story's and times of the war years, then I may put on all about the story's of the Great Gipsy Woman, I think I found a way of tracing the story of Family's by tracing the story's of the Woman, its real easy to, but I do not think it will be me who cracks the code, it all started when I was just looking through newspaper records, again and again I came up against records of Gipsies who were in court up for fortune-telling, at first I would just read then move on to my own research, then one day I thought how these type of records contained so much information, they are well documented by the press at the time, over hundreds of year's to, the Gipsy Woman were a great fascination to everybody, so journalists wrote many great full accounts up on lots of these occasions, well I was thinking as I was reading how there seemed to be a patern, or certain types of ways of tricking people in fortune-telling, so I thought to myself how did one Gipsy from one part of the country know ways of going on, there was no school of fortune-telling to teach people certain ways, then I realised how ways of going on must of been passed down through generations, but the problem for me is I have found lots of records but it will take a Great Person who will be able to know the name of the fortune-telling Gipsy Woman before She married, I know there is a code to be found like a spiders web, someone will crack it one day, the Grays have some Great Gipsy Woman from long ago, some great story's, just like tracing Family's using things like the census papers I also think there are other ways to utilise, i will elaborate more about this story another time and explain what i am saying in a more in-depth better way, i do hope one day someone will take up this Great Challenge, i know there is a code there, i can feel it, its waiting to be found, so i will finish soon with the fine Family named Bacon, i do hope one day someone will correct and expand all these writings, plus i will finish soon the Great Story of the Fine Man Himself Daniel Boswell the Legend of England
-
helo would someone be able to look up a few census reports for my research please, I would be most grateful for your kind time, I am trying my best to research the Bacon Family, if you would read this link below from the Rootschat archives you will read how other researcher's are writing of the Bacon Family from Selston the same Family that I am also researching, I would like to know is the information they have found correct and accurate in dates locations and names, I would appreciate anyone's thoughts and welcome your comments, I have found there are people named Bacon with the same Christian names doing similar occupations also from Selston, yet I have found that there are records of Death that show that the Dead Person with the same name proves that the living person with the same name is alive, this may sound a simple thing , yet it is of a great importance, I have found Charles Bacon alive and well traveling around when the other Charles Bacon is Dead and buried, this could also aply to other names that there also seem to be duplicated, would someone please help me
michael
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=75448.0
-
Hi Panished,
Your previous post I had split off from this topic because you were quoting another RootsChat topic instead of clicking the reply button, so I attached for you. For each line of enquiry you need to start off a "New topic"
Regards
Sarah
-
Hi Everyone
would there be anyone who would help me locate a census or any kind of record, I started this thread about Daniel Boswells Gravestone, I will just stay with this research now and no longer post other questions or enquiries about anyone else or any subject what so ever,
so this is the name I am researching and would like some help with, the name is Joseph Hornton known as a pedlar from Cornwall, I located this information through several records in old books, it as taken me a long time, the connection to Daniel Boswell is this, I have been researching His Epitaph, which you may read up on many posts on this thread, well I will put everything in order on my next post but just read this for now and would someone help me locate who Joseph Hornton is, the time of his burial and any information that may help, I will only now research the story of Daniel Boswell on this thread, so these are a few things I have found. I have been researching through old books for what seems like ages, its not an easy thing to-do, I must of read hundreds of thousands of words, but it is worth it in the end when you discover things
"Quaint Epitaphs"
Collected by
SUSAN DARLING SAFFOR.
Boston, Mass; April 6, 1895
Chapter
In foreign countries.
Page 88 ENGLAND
JOSEPH HORNTON, Pedler.
I lodged have in many a town
And travelled many a year.
Till age and death have brought me down
To my last lodging here.
then I read these records from this book below,
Epitaphia;
A Collection of 1300 British Epitaphs Grave and Gay, Historical and Curious-1909,E.R.suffling
page 438
A Gipsy King. Selston, Notts.
I've lodged in many a Town,
I've travelled many a year,
but death at length as brought me down
to my last lodging here.
Daniel Boswell was the name of this Romany Monarch, possible the Husband of the above Mathilda Boswell; I do not know the date of his decease. Some years ago a cow, grazing in the churchyard, broke the stone, which as not been replaced, and it is hoped that this notice may per-pectuate the epitaph and name of Gipsy Boswell.
The Turret, Happisburgh, Norfolk, Aug; 1909 Ernest R Suffling.
then in the same book under the title Pedlars on page 376 I read this below, also this record is transcribed with only the place name, the one before by Susan Darling Saffar as the Pedlars name, by combining the two story's, a bigger picture appears, I have found this way of researching brings more information, what is true and who is who is the challenge that still awaits accomplishment
On a Pedlar. Calstock, Cornwall.
I lodged have I many a Town
and travelled many a year,
Till age and Death have brought me down
To my last lodging here.
so you see I would like any information about Joseph Hornton, from these different books above it looks like he was burried in a place called Calstock Cornwall England,
I know there is much to be found evan by researching an Epitaph, I have found much more and will write everything in order regarding my research for Daniel Boswell, if no one comes forward with assistance and I to find no more, then I will leave all this information in order here for the next researcher of the future to take up the challenge to find the truth, so hopefully one day the Story of Daniel Boswell and the mysteries of His grave stone, will be told
-
Helo Everyone
would someone be able to look this record of Death up for me.
England, Select Deaths and Burials, 1538-1991DEATH, BURIAL, CEMETERY & OBITUARIES
NAME: Joseph Horton
DEATH: abt 1780
I sure have been reading, you do find lots but the sad thing is you may get tired and write records incorrectly, so from my last post I wrote the name Joseph Hornton, but on rereading my research it should of said Joseph Horton, that was a bad mistake on my part, but I have now found another record that may show writers down through the years just copy records or evan guess certain accounts, or evan make them up, its a strange world this Genealogy, I have now found another record from 1781 that talks of Cattistock Dorset not Calstock Cornwall,
In CATTISTOCK CHURCHYARD.
1781.
I Lodged have in many a Town,
And Traveled many a Year,
Till Age and Death have Brought me Down
To my Last Lodging here.
I have read through Cattistocks local Web Site page, and in there they have the Gravestone Records of the names transcribed on Monuments plus the date, yet there is no Joseph Horton or no record of 1781, some Gravestone's tho are not readable, I would be most grateful if someone would be able to find the burial records for the 1780s from this Church.
this is the link to Cattistock
The church of Saints Peter and Paul
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiZo_OZ987WAhWJZFAKHU_qDVoQFghKMAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.opcdorset.org%2FCattistockFiles%2FCattistock.htm&usg=AOvVaw05zJPDDM9bMXZfF5eF44j1
Regards michael
-
Hi Everyone
well I realise my requests are of a very hard nature, but you never know in the future someone may read these writings and use them to fulfil that which I set out to do in my feeble innocent ways, I am well a where of my limitations never mind education in what ever level is required in the, well, really great endeavour of researching, whether Relatives or a subject close to your heart, the true thing I think is to at least leave the door open for a far more in depth research, and true a far more capable Person, that true can navigate this modern world of the internet, I think now I will put up all the information that I and Richard have found in a descending time scale, the reason for this is not just for the future researchers but for the fact I have to admit I may not have the skills to find what is very important, I have great faith that one day someone will take up this research and find what You think I was looking for, I will also put on the photos that I have yet to take of where the GraveStone was placed back in the time of the burial, and also try and find all the old GraveStones of all the Protagonists that I speak of many pages back and photograph them to, so I will not be asking no more questions of you good People but just finalising all this research in the knowledge that I know someone far greater than me will one day read these words and do what needs to be done, this is the name of the book I was referring to in my last post about the Epitaph from the 1700s, I have my reasons for researching these old Epitaphs but also I am looking into the what Richard said was the original Epitaph, in the lines when the words of "Tis True" are used, I have found other records with relevance to this way of talking, it is a Shakespearian way from the 15,1600 hundreds, up untill the middle 1800s, I have done much research on this, when I now put everything in order in time going from the earliest time till now I will show all the records that I talk of, through all these writings I Respect all the Dead Gipsies, to me they are all Alive, I know I am strange to many, but I have a good heart and totally respect the opportunity of this chance in life of finding answers for not only myself but for all with an open heart, this below is the record of the book that talks of the record from 1781 cattistock, it is such a good book, I have read and tell you all to read all the writers words at the beginning of their books, this is where they speak from the Heart, tis true I have found some are far from true, yet the more you find the more your mind expands, I could talk forever, but better for You to now Feel, so Good Luck to Everyone there will be only a few more posts and I will be done
EXTANT EPITAPHS.
GATHERED
By a commercial Traveller
in spare moments.
PUBLISEED BY REQUEST,
LONDON:
F. MAIBEN, 131, ALDERSGATE STREET,
22, HARDINGE STREET,"ISLINGTON.
An original collection of
extant epitaphs August 1870
Frederick Maiben, Commercial traveller
-
Hello Everyone
someone kindly sent me a link to a web site that talks of the History before the times I talk about, the life of Daniel Boswell, I feel honour bound and also think it is right for those who have not seen this web site to also be able to learn from the research of these Great Genealogy Experts, this is the link below, then I will put on another link which also as more information that some one also sent me, Richard on this research page talked to me about one day writing up His research, well would you believe it I think He went and did it, this is in the seconed link , it is from the R.T.F H.S., below these two links I will just talk briefly about some things I have found, next I will start my final writings in a descending order for the Researchers of the next days.
this is the first link below about the history of Daniel Boswell from the web site Gypsy Genealogy
http://www.gypsygenealogy.com/showarticle.php?article_id=2
this is the seconed link to the R.T.F.H.S. web site http://rtfhs.org.uk/ if you look you will find the writings telling of the early years of the Boswell 1650 to 1810
Richard wrote this below
The Derbyshire Times, Sunday April 25th 1874 is the earliest source I can find which gives a description of the original stone:
"In Memory of Daniel Boswell, who died March 1827, Aged 83.
I have lodged in many a place 'tis true.
And traveled many a year,
Till God at length has brought me down
To my last lodgings here"
The age on that disagrees with all the other sources, 73, 76, 90! Your right that seems to show the original stone did not refer to him as a 'King' or a chief', nor did the parish register of the actual burial.
then i found these
Taunton Courier, and Western Advertiser.
Wednesday 25 May1898
this is a most strange article, it is once again people writing back and forth to the paper, I will write the full account up on my final pages in the time scale of mine and Richards reseach, in the hope that future researchers may hopefully use this information.
well the article speaks not of Daniel Boswell but James buried in Selston, this is the Epitaph.
I have lodged its true in many a town,
and travelled many a year,
but death at length as brought me down,
To my last lodgings here.
the important bit here is the words "its true" remember from the above article "tis true".
then read this.
The Derbyshire Telegraph Thursday March 7 1912
Thomas Smith Recollections. Extract.
" I have lodged , tis true, in many a town;
I have travelled many a year;
but death at length as brought me down;
to my last lodgings here".
these are very important pieces of information on the history of the Epitaph, I have found several Epitaphs with the traditional lines that replicate the Cattistock Dorset one from 1781, but these above have the word "True" in them, were did these writers get there information from to use the word "True" all the other records do not show that word, but now I have found the traditional one without "True " in, from 1873, outdating what Richard found by a few months, you may think this could put a spanner in the research, but Liston to this, on and in the same article which Richard found the writer goes on to say he was an eye witness and saw another Epitaph, this bit is of most importance for he describes the grave stone and the Epitaph next to Daniel Boswells Grave Stone, no one else talks like this, when I go back to Selston and if I find the other grave stone with the name on it plus the Epitaph the writer is talking about , well this is good evidence to say he as a writer was really there and unlike lots of writers who just copy from other records and sometimes i am sorry to say but i think some just plain lie or make things up that may be a bit right but the writer is only thinking of his words in a selfish manner of his own day and no real love for the truth or the people of the next days, so if i find the other grave stone near to Daniel Boswells GraveStone,we will be able to place good truth in his words. it is not always how much you find or even the date, so many people write wrongly, in bad ways, even i am learning this, you must have an open mind and not be to wild in your conjecture, all sorts go through my mind in thinking this could be this way or maybe that is what may be the truth, but i will leave such things for the real Experts,
I have also been thinking about the word lodgings, well did Gipsy people really lodge sometimes, instead of living in a tent, well I found Gipsies living in house's, from way back to, big names to, so they did also live in houses, then I found this article from the Nottingham Journal 26 0ctober 1866, it tells the sad tale of a Maria Boswell, She died and was aged two, R.I.P, Her Mother travelled about the country, Her Husband was dead and the most sadness of story's , they may not be Gipsies but it is stated She "lodged in Towns" as She travelled making and hawking mats and things from old sugar bags, a very sad story indeed, so people who travelled were known to lodge, i am sure if i keep looking i could find more, but will just say I have read many many words of such sad story's, I will put everything together now , it may take a long time for me to write everything up, i do hope Someone will take over these words and bring the truth for all the Great Dead
-
Hi Everyone
last night I was reading the Journal of the Derbyshire Archaeological and Natural History Society, well I came across the epitaph, also it gave the dates, then I remembered back on page one of this thread, well the same journal was being written about, the date was 1896 but the journal I was reading was from 1897, so I looked at the 1896 journal and there was no reference to the Boswells, I reread this maybe four times end to end just in case I was wrong, I still could be wrong but I think on page one of this thread the date could be wrong, this is very important be course people who look through these researchers will be led astray and on finding the journal of 1896 and no writings of the Boswells, well they may then have no true faith in my other writings, I think a person should always point out honest mistakes, they to are all apart of Honest Genealogy, I will never forget Linda saying how it was not right that people write wrong dates, She found transcribed dates that did not reflect the truth, I think it could of come from the book by S. Fox. The Derbyshire Boswells, but to be truthful I can not remember if I am 100% right on this, Linda is a Direct Descendent of the Derbyshire Boswells, Genealogy as been a great experience, when I soon stop I will truly miss staying up late and thinking wow, look what I just found, that's one of the best times.
this is the writing from page one I was talking about
" The original stone, kicked in half by a cow, is said to have been devoid of any inscription, but I can't see how that can be as 'Blacks Guide to Nottinghamshire', published in 1876 contains a description of it with inscription, the same one that stands today "I've lodged in many a town, I've travelled many a year, But death at length hath brought me down to my last lodgings here..."
The current stone says 'Dan Boswell Gipsy King 1737 -1827'. The parish register of the actual burial conflicts with this, according to the transcriptions made by Julie Gerring at the Nottingham Family History Society he was buried on 18th March 1827 recorded as 'Daniel Bosswell, aged seventy six', abode: ' A Tent on Hall Green, Selston Common'.
In1896 the 'Journal of the Derbyshire Archaelogical Society' makes reference to him as ' Daniel Boswell, a king or chief of the Gipsy family of that name, who died on the 21st March, 1821, aged 73, in his tent on Hall Green, Selston Common'. Why this earlier source has his age, the date of burial and the year of burial different by six years I don't know, but the same information was evidently later used as a source in the 'Journal of the Gypsy Lore Society' in 1948, where identical information is given".
Then this is the Journal I was reading last night
Journal of the Derbyshire Archaeological and Natural History Society
Edited by Rev. Charles Kerry. Rector of Upper Spondon Beds.
Vol.XIX January 1897
Printed for the Society by Bemrose & Sons, LTD, 23 Old Bailey, London and Derby.
In this book there is a vast list of members, honorary members, officers of the sectional committee, auditors, hon secretary, hon treasurer, plus the council, above all these is the vice president then at the head is the president the Duke of Rutland. K.G.
The Rev. Charles Kerry is in the Council. In the contents page 101 to 125, miscellanea, you will find the Rev. C. Kerry talking about wayside internments, isolated interments, Quaker cemetery’s plus the cantelupe monument Ilkeston, you will also read research of his in these words under the title of Gypsies - The Boswells. He says Daniel Boswell was a King or Chief and died on the 21st March 1821 aged 73, in his tent on Halls Green Selston Common. He writes the gravestone is broke but still may be seen and the epitaph is in characteristics.
“I've lodged its true in many a town,
I've travelled many a year,
But death at length has brought me down
To my last lodging here”.
Once again this epitaph as the word " True" wrote in the inscription, also the Rev. C. Kerry talks of a story told to him by the Rector of Ickelford Church, near Hitchin regarding a Gipsy king named Boswell, then he finishers with some words of the Rector of Morley the Rev. S. Fox. He tells of a wandering Gipsy named Samuel Boswell, the story from Ickelford and the epitaph are the same as the one wrote in my previous post, Taunton Courier, and Western Advertiser. Wednesday 25 May1898, maybe the author or a friend had read the Derbyshire Journal 1897, yes in the full account of the Taunton Courier there is the same epitaph plus the story of Ickelford, there are so many variations of the epitaph, they all can not be "true".
Also wrote on page one of this thread was this............ 'Blacks Guide to Nottinghamshire', published in 1876 containing a description of the epitaph, the same one that stands today
"I've lodged in many a town,
I've travelled many a year,
But death at length hath brought me down to my last lodgings here..."
Well I think I have now traced further back the origin of this epitaph with the word " hath" wrote in the inscription, I found it back a few more years, with good stories of the authors, I will put that on my next post, also if anyone sees I have wrote information that they have seen differently I would be most grateful if you would correct my words, it is very important that I leave the truth when I soon stop writing, I thank you in advance.
michael
-
Hi Everyone
does anyone know the correct meaning of "double dues" in relation to the Parish records. I also
finally think that Daniel Boswells Epitaph was not original to Himself, read below, if somone would help me in this reserch, I would be most grateful.
Wigan Observer and District Advertiser
Saturday 2 September 1905
Betty Marshall known as “ The Donkey Queen” died last week, at Southport Sands, She was not the only local Centenarian. According to the Parish register, in the Churchyard may be found the Gravestone of Husband and wife, who’s joint ages reached two centuries. On it is inscribed
Esther Sherlocker, Died Sep 1786
Robert Sherlocker Died April 16 1802 aged 101 years
Below is the Epitaph
I lodged have in many a town.
And travelled many a year.
But age and death have brought me down.
To my last lodging here.
Throughout 1905 there are articles concerning the fact that Betty Marshall was a Centenarian, then very tragically the sad news of Her sad end. She was born just outside Southport on St Swithins Day 12 August 1804, From the register at Hasall Church. She was Christened Elizabeth Marshall Daughter of Betty and John Wright. She married Thomas Marshall. She was credited with being the very first Person to bring and ply for hire Donkeys along the Southport shore.
Annals Of Southport And District:
A Chronological History Of North Meols
A.D.1086 to 1886.
By E. BlAND. Southport October 1887
1786____September. Died, aged 99, Esther Sherlocker. sixteen year’s later April 16 1802, Her Husband Died, aged 101.Thus their united age covered two centuries. They were “Travellers”, as is proved by the fact that at the funerals, “double dues” were paid.
They were dealers in rabbit skins. On their Gravestone is inscribed:-
“I lodged have in many a town,
And travelled many a year;
But age and death have brought me down
To my last lodging here”.
There is an article in a book named the Marina which goes by the title.
A Walk through Southport, by P. Whittle.
It mentions that many of the gravestones reflect the longevity of the Town.
Esther Sherlocker died sept.1786, aged 99 yeares.
Robert Sherlocker, died April 16, 1802, aged 101 years.
This book was published in 1831, I have now found the article was taken from a paper in the year 1823 Tuesday 8 July
THE KALEIDOSCOPE or Literary and Scientific Mirror.
Also in the year 1826, 29 of May, there was a book published, second addition,
A Guide to Southport, by Thomas Kirkland Glazebrook.
Exstract
“Stronger proof cannot be adduced of the salubrity of this neighbourhood, than a reference to the instances of longevity recorded on the tombstones”.
Esther Sherlocker, Died sept. 1786 aged 99 years’.
Robert Sherelocker,__April.16, 1802__101 yeares.
It is then written that this Man travelled “ many a year” selling rabbit skins, and had saved and bought property. The writer then says “the verse on his grave_stone alludes to this circumstance”.
I lodged have in many a town,
And travelled many a year;
But age and death have brought me down,
To my last lodging here.
Also in 1836 Edward Baines in his book named
History of the county Palatine and Dutchy of Lancaster talks of the aged population of North Meols, again the Sherlockers are the main talking point.
In the Online Parish Records of Lancaster there is a vast history of these Familys above.
Burial 2 Sep 1786 St Cuthbert,
North Meols, Lancs.
Esther Sherlicar_
Age:99
Abode Scarbrick
Notes Double Dues
Buriel 16 April 1802 St Cuthbert's,
North Meols, Lancs,
Robert Sherlicar_
Died 15 April 1802
Age 101
Abode Halsal
This below looks like the full account on the gravestone, it is from the web site
The Sholicar pages the Origin and History of the Sholicar
https://sholicar.wordpress.com/welcome-to-the-sholicar-pages/sholicars-join-here/
Extract
The Shirlacker/Shirlackers entries all related to one family group, headed by Laurence Shirlacker. His son, Robert, was a travelling rabbit dealer. Both he and Easter or Esther lived to a great age and their gravestone reads:
Here lieth Jennet
the Daughter of
Robert Sherlocker
She Died the 9 of July 1710
Here lieth the Body of
Easter Sherlocker who
departed this life the of
September 1786 Aged 99 years
Robert Sherlocker died
April 10th 1802 Aged 101
I lodged have in many in a town,
And travelled many a year;
But Age & Death have brought me down
To my last lodging here.
In 1830, William Henney wrote yet another edition of a series of books named
Moral and Interesting Epitaphs, now read this.
On a Traveller
I, that have lodged in many a town,
And travelled many a year,
By age and death am beaten down,
To take my lodging here;
And lay my weary limbs at rest.
Till Christ does call me to be blest.
read this link below, it is from the London Quarterly Review 1839, American Edition. I wonder did Daniel Boswell really lodge from town to town. I do hope someone will be able to offer help, I am looking for information from 1820s through till the 1860s regarding Daniel Boswell.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3YEfAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA197&lpg=RA1-PA197&dq=i,+that+have+lodged+in+many+a+town,+and+travelled+many+a+year,&source=bl&ots=Lh-NpPsToG&sig=RumMrcvg1qbRjcYPU0IsuKBct6U&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-hYPnwqDXAhUnCcAKHcJiBbwQ6AEIUzAG#v=onepage&q=i%2C%20that%20have%20lodged%20in%20many%20a%20town%2C%20and%20travelled%20many%20a%20year%2C&f=false
-
Hello to Everyone at RootsChat, i do hope you all had a Merry Christmas, plus a Happy and Prosperous New Year. I thought i would finish my writings for this year, with a Wedding, i am trying to learn, i ask a lot of questions, like who are the Boswell's, which Family's are they Related to, or evan if they are all Related to themselves, as in how does Daniel Boswell connect to all the many Family's, to be truthful i am still in the dark, i was reading about the Heaps who are connected to the Boswell's, i was reading through the link below from the Web Site the Gypsy Genealogy, it is a nice article, i have seen records of Heaps married with the Wilshers, Wilshaws , Wiltshires. Lee once wrote to me and said, " In this day the Names you speak of are still going Strong, only the Gipsies know Names of the Old Family's ". " In the past only a few Gipsies would speak, it was only a few who the writers learned from, most stayed silent." i do not think records alone tell evan half the story of who new who, the truth may be lost forever, we can but try.
He once told the story of long ago, told by Old Relations, "the Oldest of all the Romany's were round a camp fire, they all were talking in the Old Words, but all of a sudden the Herons talked among themselves, in a dialect and way that others felt a sort of shame for they did not understand this Old Way, so they all up and left the fire side to the Herons".
I hope again that these writings will be of help, Good Luck for the New Year, Leahcim.
http://www.gypsygenealogy.com/showarticle.php?article_id=100
Nottingham Journal
Saturday 25 April 1863
Harworth http://southwellchurches.nottingham.ac.uk/harworth/hlocn.php
http://southwellchurches.nottingham.ac.uk/harworth/hpics.php
Gipsy Wedding_ This quiet little village, on Monday last, was the scene of great attractions, having been announced that a Gipsy wedding would take place at 11 o'clock that morning. The banns of the happy pair, who were camping in the neighborhood, had been duly published in Harworth Church, and the names given, Goliah Heaps and Matilda Elliott, the latter being Cousin of Holmes, the noted horse dealer. At the time appointed the Village seemed alive to what was about to take place, work rested for a while, and many sight_seeing strangers suddenly made their appearance so that the road from the inn to the church was thickly hoed with a mass of persons. Meantime, the respected Curate, the Rev. R. R. Moore, was waiting at the alter, when it was heard," they are coming". Immediately every available place was taken up, and the Church was so crowded that the Bridal party could scarcely pass. In a few moments, a young healthy, well_built Woman, made her appearance before the alter, accompanied by her Father, and followed by her Sister and her intended, a fine looking fellow, she was neatly attired in a spotted muslin dress with scarf to match, white silk bonnet, black kid boots, and a bunch of flowers in her hand, the men wore black cloth, white flowers and gloves, and appeared very respectable. At the close of the ceremony, it was found that none of the party could either read nor write. After a few moments delay, they steadily withdrew, followed by a great company of people,. Leaving the Church-Yard a complete shower of old boots and shoes were seen flying in all directions, but to heighten the scene, two men walked close behind the party playing a merry tune with-tin whistles, till they arrived at the Galway Arms,
http://www.picturethepast.org.uk/frontend.php?keywords=Ref_No_increment;EQUALS;NCCN003103&pos=2&action=zoom
http://www.picturethepast.org.uk/frontend.php?keywords=Ref_No_increment;EQUALS;NCCN003095&pos=19&action=zoom&id=75071
http://www.picturethepast.org.uk/frontend.php?keywords=Ref_No_increment;EQUALS;NCCN003085&pos=29&action=zoom&id=75028
where and hot dinner of roast beef and plum pudding was provided for fourteen. The remainder of the day was spent in merry making, during the evening crowds of people visited the Inn, to catch a glimpse of the party. Such occurrence of a Gipsy wedding as never been known to take place in Harworth before, so says that mysterious personage the oldest inhabitant. At an early hour the next day, the camp broke on, the Bridal party going Westward and the other Eastward.
http://www.picturethepast.org.uk/frontend.php?keywords=Ref_No_increment;EQUALS;NCCN003083&pos=31&action=zoom&id=75026
in the link below it tells of the end of the Galway Arms
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj6-KLixq3YAhVlK8AKHemjDxkQFggsMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.harworthbrass.co.uk%2Fbandhistory.html&usg=AOvVaw18fl-dLqfvOe2RvosHygOd
just a few Extracts below to show Relatives, this Great Gipsy Family
Derby Courier 1 April 1865
Eckington Petty Sessions- Extract
Two Hawker Elliott and Heaps-charged with stealing the carcass of a dead sheep.
Derby Mercury 3 May 1865
Coroners Inquest- Extract
Sarah Heaps, Gipsy, called up as a witness, Sarah said she lived with her Sister Father and Mother at Heage, they are lodging with her cousin George Heaps.
In 1861-62 in several papers , Priscilla Heaps, Gipsy Fortuneteller, on the run, for in 1856 She duped the wife of a farmer out of 43 pounds, she told the woman the money was bewitched, the answer was to hand over the money, Priscilla was at-large until November 61, in 62 She now faced the Court. R.I.P x
Happy New Year
-
Hi All
i would be most obliged if someone would be able to read through my research below and hopeful offer their kind help, these are only extracts, i try to fit it all in to one page, i thank you in advance.
This letter was written to the Derbyshire Times on 7th June 1873: W. A. does not know the inscription.
Dan Boswell - 'When a lad at Pinxton some twenty years ago, I recollect having pointed out to me on Selston Common, not far distant from the Hall, the place where the Gipsy King Dan Boswell died. He was buried at the back of Selston Church, and a headstone placed to his memory. I regret to say owing to the shameful practice of allowing cows to graze in the churchyard, one of the animals broke in two the stone. When I saw it one half was left in the ground and the other part not far distant. I presume it is not possible to obtain a copy of the inscription of the stone, Any particulars relating to Boswell will greatly Oblige' W.A.
Richard researched this below
"A bit of a detective work shows the only lad with those initials in the village was a William Alcock born 1830, three years after Dan's burial. He later became a gas works manager, so probably was a literate man, and I would guess he is the best candidate for the man who wrote this letter".
Richard wrote "The Derbyshire Times, Sunday April 25th 1874 is the earliest source I can find which gives a description of the original stone".
"In Memory of Daniel Boswell, who died March 1827, Aged 83.
I have lodged in many a place 'tis true.
And traveled many a year,
Till God at length has brought me down
To my last lodgings here"
So W.A. does not know the inscription in 73, yet in the Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald 27 June 1874 under the Title Gipsy Epitaphs and Burials.
A writer wrote-" A Mr. Andrews gave some time ago [i can not now give the reference] an epitaph, taken from Selstone Church Yard on Dan Boswell the Gipsy King".
in the Bradford Observer Saturday 14 November 1874 under the title Boswell the Gipsy King, is wrote this
" The remarks in your issue of June 13 remind me that in Selstone Churchyard, Notts, the remains of Dan Boswell, the head of a well known gang of gipsies are interred. His epitaph runs as follows:-
" I've lodged in many a town,
i have traveled many a year,
but death at length hath brought me down,
To my last lodgings here". W.A.
In 1874 there was a book written, edited by Cornelius Brown, titled Notes about Notts, on page 128 under the title, Eccentric Epitaphs, is wrote
Selstone Church yard is the burial place of Old Dan Boswell, the head of a well known gang of gipsies, who were frequently in the neighborhood. A lady tells us. She can remember the tribe encamping on the common, and also the marriage of one of his daughters in true gipsy fashion on the occasion of one of their visits, when her father the king of the gipsies, presented her with a quarten measure of either sovereigns or guineas as a marriage dowry.
The epitaph is as follows:
" I've lodged in many a town,
I've traveled many a year,
but death at length hath brought me down,
to my last lodging here".
Cornelius Brown works for the Nottinghamshire Guardian, where he speaks of getting a numerous amount of material for the content of this book, i like his mind, in the preface is wrote.
" Not only in every County, but almost every Village of any size, has connected with its bye-gone days numerous interesting circumstances, and to investigate and collect this is at once a labour of usefulness and a work of pleasure".
He quotes a favorite writer from the past. "To elucidate local history in the manner in which it ought to be elucidated is to rescue the worthy from oblivion; to delineate the changes of manners and the progress of arts; to call back to the fancy the pomp and spender of ages that are gone; to restore the ruined castle; to re-people the deserted mansion; and to bid for a moment the grave to render back its inhabitants to the fond eye of regret".
so i looked up the Nottinghamshire Guardian and there on Friday 1 August 1873 in a letter sent to the local notes and Queries column by a lady of the name, S.A. Cotterill, the letter She wrote is the same story and epitaph as the one above from the book, so this now is the oldest as yet known date and epitaph that i know of, there is the one from 74 with " Tis true" wrote and now in 73 we have "Hath", who W.A. is i do not know, somebody must at some stage be just not telling the truth,
if any one would help me to understand and go further back i would be most grateful, these are just extracts there is much more information in the fuller accounts.
Dont forget 'Blacks Guide to Nottinghamshire', published in 1876 contains a description
"I've lodged in many a town,
I've travelled many a year,
But death at length hath brought me down
to my last lodgings here..."
also the Journal of the Derbyshire Archaeological and Natural History Society
Edited by Rev. Charles Kerry.
Vol.XIX January 1897
Daniel Boswell was a King or Chief and died on the 21st March 1821 aged 73, in his tent on Halls Green Selston Common. He writes the gravestone is broke but still may be seen.
Inscription below
“I've lodged its true in many a town,
I've travelled many a year,
But death at length has brought me down
To my last lodging here”.
herrm..... "tis the Truth hath brought me here". Leahcim
-
Hello Everyone
Would it be at all possible if some kind person would please look up on the census records the name of a supposed Lady.... S.A.COTTERILL. She was said to be from around the Selston ways, it is of the most importance. First i would like to explain this research. I am at present attempting to travel back from the year 1873, this as been an hard task, i acquaint this to the so-called, dark ages of Britain, the times after the Romans, yet before the Normans, evan the Angles and Saxons, they say these times are of the savage Vikings, yet now scholars write that the dark age of Britain possess-est day as well as night, much is being found from the research of Scholars of the present day, i to wish to find the truth if indeed there is a time before 1873 regarding the Epitaph and more the life of Daniel Boswell.
There are two main protagonists that at this time i have seen as "persons of interest", one is the eminent Journalist and Author, Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature, Fellow of the Society of Antiquaries and also Vise- President of the Thornton Society of Nottinghamshire. His name is one Cornelius Brown, he wrote the book "Notes about Notts" " A Collection of Singular Saying, Curious Customs, Eccentric Epitaphs and Interesting Items, Historical and Antiquarian. Edited by Cornelius Brown, Fellow of the Royal Historical Society Nottingham: T. Forman and Sons, Long Row 1874.
http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/Brown1896/brown.htm
If you now re-read my last post you will know that Cornelius was the Editor of the "Notes and Queries" columns in the Nottinghshire Guardian Newspaper, there he received a letter from a Lady telling of the Inscription Epitaph of Daniel Boswell, the person being S.A.COTTERILL 1873, this then intern found its way into Mr. Browns book, "Notes about Notts", 1874.
If you again re-read my last post you will see in the Bradford Observer Saturday 14 November 1874 under the title "Boswell the Gipsy King", ............ below are the words.
" The remarks in your issue of June 13 remind me that in Selstone Churchyard, Notts, the remains of Dan Boswell, the head of a well known gang of gipsies are interred. His epitaph runs as follows:-
" I've lodged in many a town,
i have traveled many a year,
but death at length hath brought me down,
To my last lodgings here". W.A.
I think you may agree that "W.A." may well have obtained his knowledge from either the Book above or evan from the letter sent to the Nottinghamshire Gardian 1873, this below is the writing in the book.
"Selstone Church yard is the burial place of Old Dan Boswell, the head of a well known gang of gipsies, who were frequently in the neighborhood. A lady tells us. She can remember the tribe encamping on the common, and also the marriage of one of his daughters in true gipsy fashion on the occasion of one of their visits, when her father the king of the gipsies, presented her with a quarten measure of either sovereigns or guineas as a marriage dowry".
The epitaph is as follows:
" I've lodged in many a town,
I've traveled many a year,
but death at length hath brought me down,
to my last lodging here".
I have a strong suspicion that W.A is the one and only William Andrews, Fellow of the Royal History Society, Secretary of the Hull Literary Club, Chief Librarian of the Hull Subscription Library, Honory Secretary of the press Postal League, and amongst other things "Member of the Derbyshire Archaelogical and Natural History Society".
He is a most prolific writer.
http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupname?key=Andrews%2C%20William%2C%201848-1908
I will show everyone in my next post, more perceived evidence of how i think these two great Writers link up in the story of the Epitaph, but first if someone would help in tracing S.A. COTTERILL, we must confirm the letter as genuine, does a S.A. COTTERILL exist from 1873 around Selston Nottinghamshire.
ps. remember if you are able to help, first you must know that S.A.COTTERILL may be the Ladys married name, and She may be writing about Selston of the times of when She was young, and Her maiden name is unknown, plus She may now be living in a different location, wow, Genealogy is not an easy task..... Good Luck, if there is no reply i will keep on trying
pps.... Dont forget in the pagers of the Derbyshire Times on 7th June 1873: W. A. was the first person......... "as of yet", who started all the talk of an Epitaph, he claimed then to be seeking it, on 14 November 1874 after S.A.COTTERILLS letter and the writings in the book he then spoke of the Epitaph in the Bradford Observer with the "Hath" wrote into the words, yet in the Derbyshire Times, on Saturday 27 June 1874, the writer said he was replying to a Mr. Andrews from 7th June 1873, yet the letter he was replying to was signed W.A. yet he referred to the writer as Mr. Andrews. there was also the letter in the same columns with the inscription "tis true ", wrote 25 April 1874, signed S.L. It is possible that the writer referring to a Mr. Andrews on 27 June 1874, , was referring to S.L. which would place S.L. as Andrews. In the present day on the Gypsy Genealogy web site of this very month it mentions Daniel Boswell, read the link below and learn all about His life plus check the dates against the dates i have researched...Its a very good website.
http://www.gypsygenealogy.com/showarticle.php?article_id=277
michael
-
Hi Everyone
Lets just say W.A. or William Andrews was just a local person replying to is local paper in the notes and queries columns, nothing at all strange about that, yet i have found many letters sent into the papers of Nottinghamshire , Derbyshire, and Yorkshire, all with the Name William Andrews or W.A. it is of my opinion that William Andrews of Hull as the mind of a Great Collector, a colossus of a Writer. In the Nottinghamshire Guardian 28 November 1873 Cornelius Brown being the stated Editor of the columns of the "notes and queries" spoke these words in written form about a man he had knowledge of.
Popular Antiguities_Mr. William Andrews Hull, a contributor to this column and to various publications, was preparing a miscellany of popular antiquities of Yorkshire, under the title of the Yorkshire Garland. As Mr. Andrews as long been an active worker in rescuing from oblivion customs of bygone days, and thoes which are rapidly dying out, we have no doubt that he would do justice to the work which he has undertaken. We trust that any of our contributors who have any notices likely to be of service to Mr. Andrews, will communicate them to him at 14 Spring Bank Hull, and we have no doubt he will acknowledge any assistance in his forth coming volume.
I could write up many many letters of William Andrews and also W.A regarding many subjects in the notes and queries columns in several County Shires. I do not think i have to go on to much about that, yet it is strange how he never puts Dan Boswell's Epitaph in his book, he wrote in the Deryshire Times on the same day as the reports i write of, he talked much, and often asked many questions regarding Epitaphs in several papers, the writings are all there in the papers for future researches to locate, he was only at the start of his long career as an author way back in the time of the letters, he was but a young man, plus i think he liked to see the inscription with his own eyes, if i remember right he was evan wrote about in one paper as being in London to eye witness an Epitaph of interest, this story also could go in several directions, i may to, be making mistakes, this is the book below without the Epitaph.
Curious Epitaphs Collected from the Graveyards of Britain and Ireland, with Biographical, Genealogical, and Historical Notes.
by William Andrews F.R.H.S Member of the Derbyshire Achaelogical and Natral History Society.
Secretary of the Hull Literary Club.
Local Secretary of the National Society for the Preserving the Memorials of the Dead.
Author of " Historic Romance",
" Punishments in Older Times",
" Book of Oddities",
" Histories of the Dunmow Flitch",
etc.
Mr. Andrews then writes in his book a dedication to the Duke of Devonshire, he signs this with the title W.A.
He also signs his Name on another page as William Andrews October 1 1883.
This below is the full letter from S.A.COTTERRILL, Nottinghamshire Guardian Notes and Queries, Friday 1 August 1873.
Dan Boswell- In a recent impression of the Guardian, i saw an item on Old Dan Boswell, and the writer it would appear would like the Epitaph. I being born and brought up not far from Selstone- indeed i can see the old hall from where i live- have been quite familiar with it all my life. My Mother as told us She can remember the Tribe encamping on the common, and also the marriage of one of his Daughters in true gipsy fashion on the occasion of one of their vissits, when Her Father, the king of the gipsies, presented Her with a quarten of sovereigns or guineas, i have forgoten which, as a marriage dowry.I thought i would send the Epitaph, if it would be any pleasure for your correspondent to know it. S.A.COTTERILL.
[ Replies have been received from " R.K.," and also from another correspondent who emitted to sign his name."R.K. adds that none of the Boswells prosterity are in the Selston Parish_ED.]
I have not been able to trace the recent impression that S.A.COTTERILL was referring to, also i now see through re-reading these words She speaks of still being in seeing distance of the old hall, so She must be in the Census from Selston in the times we are talking about. i will next put on the full letters in order of the Derbyshire Times that i write of in the previous post, if nothing comes of this i will move on to try and adapt this research, i will be looking for the Older Camp Sites around Nottingham, you never know, i find if you locate something that to some meens nothing well something then comes of nothing.
Leahcim
ps I await all and any reply's with the utmost gratitude, especially correction in any form, that would be most welcome for i feel shamed when i know i get things wrong or tangled around my neck... i thank you in-advance.
pps Cornelius Brown wrote of Dan Boswell in his Epitaph book yet William Andrews in his own Epitaph book did not, W.A. would not let a single fact go astray, he new of all the talk of Daniel Boswell from the Seventy's, why would he miss him out, there are two letters of these times reguarding an eye witness account of the Inscription, the one above from S.A.COTTERRILL, Nottinghamshire Guardian Notes and Queries, Friday 1 August 1873, with the word"hath" wrote, and the one from The Derbyshire Times, Sunday April 25 1874 with the words "tis true " wrote, they both cannot be right, i will put the full letter up of 25 April 1874 next.
-
Hi everyone
is there anyone who could confirm that these Cotterills below who are in the reports from Selston St Marys in the years that lead up to the times of the letters to the papers, also i have read Daniel Boswells first name as in Daniel was never passed down, if there is other Boswells in future yeares after the times of Selston maybe their names and storys could be worked backwards to try and find more information, so i put a few names up i found, if in any way anybody knows of any link back to Nottinghamshire i would thank you for your welcome advice,
I have to try several ways to try and go back further than 1873, it may evan be true that in the begining there never was an Epitaph, if there was one, well, someone is telling big lies as i have shown through the "two" main Epitaphs, both can not be true, this is why i must confirm the Cotterills as genuine, W.A may well be William Andrews, William Andrews may well be "Juba 2" the famouse writer who along with William Andrews and W.A. are to be found in the same Notes and Queries collunms that i am researching, Juba was the name of a Free Man of great ability, did you know he was born in America and fused African dance with that of the Irish fiddle jig dancing, it is said all modern types of tap dancing derive its origen from the Man known as Juba, it is wrote that he joined the Black and White Minstrels troupe of Dancers who were White men who had their faces blackend to look like Black men, becourse he was the greatest Dancer on earth they wanted him to jion their dancing troupe, but they made him first put makeup on to look like a White Man then put makeup on to make him look like a White Man trying to look like a Black Man, Juba came over to England and travelled much, he danced around this Country and was known in the local papers, he died in London in the 1850s, i am honestly just guessing, was W.A also "Juba2" also William Andrews, did W.A, who like the real Juba, change is face as in name, to find the answers in the struggles they both encounted in their own endeavors, we will see. http://masterjuba.com/
Selston St. Helen's Marriage Register 1557 -1846
1812 Dec 30 SWINDEL Thomas COTTRILL Mary
1813 Feb 8 COTTRELL William HALLSWORTH Sarah
1832 Jan 1 COOKE John COTTERILL Mary
1833 Nov 17 ALLCOCK John COTTRILL Mary
1844 Dec 10 BOOTH William COTTERILL Elizabeth
1846 Jul 12 BREEDON Samuel COTTERILL Elizabeth
When you first read this report below you may instantly think Dan Boswell could well be a Gipsy, yet on reading what the Constable went on to say, well I think the jury is still out; so now this is the time when you need the acquired skill to navigate the appropriate census reports to conclude your assumptions
Dudley Mercury, Stourbridge, Brierley Hill and County Express
Saturday 27 April 1889 Extract
Daniel Boswell of Cherry Tree Orchard, Old Hill, was charged with being drunk in charge of an horse and cart……..Police Constable Styles spoke of seeing the defendant drunk in his masters cart.
In the story below you would be also right to be cautious
Wells Journal
Thursday 24 December 1908
Somerset Extract
Daniel Boswell of Radstock summoned for allowing his horse to stray
Truthfully I left one word out deliberately to show you many times there is more information that is left out in quotes or extracts, they state in the record Dan Boswell is a Gipsy.
In the record below you again could fall for an honest assessment and think that of course this Dan Boswell is a Gipsy, once again consult the census records, or ask for help.
Bedfordshire Mercury
Saturday 4 February 1871
Daniel Boswell up for poaching.
On this record below you have to be very careful and you must try and learn the full bigger picture, there is a good chance that this Dan Boswell is from the Gipsies, in extracts so much information is left out, below see how it says Latymer Road Notting Hill, I am sure that is an area where Gipsies lived back in the times of this stated report, by using knowledge from previous research you may also think to that you would be right to have an honest Guess at this one, evan if this Dan Boswell turns out to be not from the Gipsies don’t worry for an honest guess is a true guess.
West London Observer
Saturday 1 December 1855 Extract
In the report it goes on to talk of two Tinker Brothers of Latymer Road Notting Hill, who are on their way home and singing some old tune to themselves, a gang of Irish labourers on hearing the happy Brothers now call them insulting names, the Boswells rise to the challenge and confront the mob, saying they could do the Irish, but alas the Irish gang attack them with many weapons and they end up getting a bit of a kicking, it would of been best for them to have just gone home, but when you’re up for it your up for it, fair play it sounds like they had a good go, their names were James Boswell and Daniel Leary Boswell.
There is a Daniel Boswell and a Adam Small plus James Deary up for being Disorderly, this is in the Norwich Mercury Saturday 27 October 1832
You again would be right to link the Small name and Boswell name as of the Gipsies, but I think this is only about a ninety to ten chance and evan less than that, this is what you would be right to call a long shot.
-
Hello Michael
I wish to tell you that you have done a fantastic job in sharing so much history with us, thank you!
As you know, it is said that the Lock / Locke family originated from the Boswell family, so all your posts about the Boswell family is absolutely fascinating to me.
We know through Y DNA evidence that 17 Lock / Locke men are a 67 marker Y DNA match to 3 men of the Boswell / Jackson surname, so the oral and written stories telling us there is a biological connection between both family's is absolutely true.
I know your primary focus is on Boswell family history, but I got a real history mystery that I can not seem to resolve on my own and why I am reaching out to you, I hope you don't mind.
My immigrant ancestor Richard Lock is first named in a 1763 Frederick County, Virginia land deed lease. On the land deed lease, names Richard Lock, Mary Lock and Richard Lock Jr. to lease a track of land on a 10 year contract with the option to live on the farm for as long as they wished.
In order for a son to be named on a land deed, means the son had to have been age 21 or older in that time era, so we know the son Richard Lock Jr. was at least age 21 in 1763 when the deed was signed. This puts an estimated birth date of around 1742 for Richard Lock Jr, or earlier.
Not to many years ago, after a 30 year search by me, a family bible was finally located, the family bible of Rev. Jacob Lock, a Baptist Minister of Barren County, Kentucky, son of Richard Lock & Mary ( maiden name unknown to me ).
Rev. Jacob Lock is believed to be the 1st generation born on American soil, in Colonial Virginia.
In Rev. Jacob's family bible, was a British record. My great Aunt and her first cousin both told me the same story about the family bible and of the British record, but they were both children when the bible and record was found in 1930 in Fannin County, Honey Grove, Texas USA.
Oral family story says the entire family got excited at the news of the family bible having been found in the house hold of my 3rd great grand father, George Simon "Sims" Locke after his death in 1930.
One oral story says George's son John Henry Locke took the British record to a lawyer to get advice on what to do with that record, and reportedly the lawyer stole the record, never to be seen again.
Another oral story says, someone stole the record and destroyed it.
What ever happened to the British record we may never know, I only know that the record has not been seen since 1935! What ever this record was, it had to be personal and important to the descendants of Richard Lock to have kept the record in the family bible for generations.
It could be claimed that the oral stories I was told in my youth are incorrect or never happened, BUT! I have a letter from the Royal Courts of London dated the 5th of April, 1935 to John H. Locke of Honey Grove, Texas.
In the response from the Royal Court and I will transcribe the response letter for you.
Sir
Referring to your letter of the 21st ult. addressed to the English Chancery I regret I am unable to trace any proceedings in the Chancery Division from the information given by you.
If you will let me have the date when the proceedings were instituted whereby the property referred to came under the control of the court, I will cause a further search to be made.
Your obedient servant
F. C. Alloway
While the record hasn't been seen since 1935, the response
Now the response letter gives me two clues, that what ever the record was about, may have involved the Chancery Division, and it was mentioned that property came under control of the court.
But I can not find any such court record about Richard Lock having had property being taken control by the court.
If this record could be found, it just may explain why Richard Lock ended up in Colonial Virginia when he did. I have always suspected Richard Lock to have gotten in to some kind of legal trouble, and may have even been transported to the colonies as a convict, but the earliest record I can lay my hands on is the 1763 land deed lease.
Richard Lock Sr. is easily 2 generations older then Matthew Lock whom married Rememberance Boswell. Richard Lock was already in Colonial Virginia before the birth of Matthew Lock.
If you or anyone happens to find mention of Richard Lock in the UK court records, I sure would appreciate you sharing that information with me.
Thanks for your time, and please keep up the great work you are doing.
Donald Locke
-
Hi Don
Thank you for your kind letter, i am through DNA related to the American Coopers Wharton's Baileys Harrisons Smalls Boswells Palmer's Jewell's Joules Jeffery's Young's Wells Stanley's Pearce's and more in respect, several times to in adjoining names over several generations, in England the names though DNA are Scamp Boss Mathews Burtons Buckley's Buckland then Lee from Wales and England plus the Jones Gardiners Allen's Beanies Ayers Booths Sheriffs Boyling's Boiling's Hodgkin's Loveridge Charlotts Winters Nelsons Knights Wilshers and Holmes, plus many more in respect, then from Europe i have now Nearly 50 east European Romany who are descendant from my ancestors, not one of them have a drop of British DNA yet through DNA they are my cousins in DNA, i have of now over one thousand Gipsy connections through the cousin sequence that ancestry say is true, i have a massive connection to America, that means that my DNA predates the late 1800s, there is much more i could say but i want you to know that you have done good, what will they think of me and you in thirty years' time when we are both gone, they will say we are different people from different continents from different family's yet through DNA we connected in our different ways of researching
Don the Smiths are a great family that i suppose you never have known in America i am also related through DNA to them plus Herons from the north east and the Hearns Herons from Wales and the Grays plus the Lovell's who i seem to be connected to many times like the Dark Lees married to the Mochins connected to the Herons who i match to, also through DNA, you can see how DNA connects to the old family trees that the old scholars wrote,
-
also, Don I am related to the Jackson Boswells through the cousin sequence, maybe a few times to, also do you know of the Lees from Wales, some went to Ireland, Paulines lot and William, plus i am related to the Blackpool Lot, the Bunces, they now are in Australia, they match to me they are from Alma Boswells lot, wow i know it seems unreal but it's true. i have several Boswells DNA matches from Wales to the north all across the sea to America, how and why is a mystery far greater than i can think, i have several DNA matches to the Gloucestershire region with names like Stevens Stevensons Davis and names like that they have lots of the Locks going back in their linage i will check and see if one of them have a lock going back to the 1600s, i am only a scrag end to, all the DNA matches comes through my Mother, you have all that straight down the male line Y DNA with H in it, everyone i guess would want that in some form to identify with the old Romany, i truthfully never give such things a thought, in fact i still find it hard to believe how Ancestry say most of my Ethnicity in England is from the south east and then the south i never ever thought i would connect to all those English Gipsy descendants from these regions, how can this be, how do i connect to the south when i am from the midlands, i like reading into all my match's trees, some of them have Gipsy family's on both sides to, for generations going back hundreds of years, if i have all the connections that i do just imagine how many they must have, the European Gipsy's have far more DNA that connects them to India through ethnicity you can see all the country's that their ancestors stayed in, you learn so much history by researching your DNA match's history, there must of been several old time Romany's that must Criss cross my Mothers old family at times to connect me to all those European Gipsy's not one of them have British DNA yet ancestry say they connect to me nearly 50 of them to, most of them have about 30 to 40% Indian Ethnicity they do not mention if they have the H DNA in them i bet it's about the same 30 to 40 % you can see how they lived the old Romany's in several countries over hundreds of years they must of been breeding in with all the peoples they met along the way, and now Ancestry is finding other regions in India not just the north of those lands, places like the Bengal and the south lands of India are showing up in many Gipsy descendants DNA, you never know the first people who went onto be Romany may have first came from the Bengal region, only time will reveal that which is still unknown, their first way of speaking may have been different to the Sanskrit their first language may have just been absorbed into those that came from the north of India, their still could be clues in the old words of the Romany's, some of the old words may come from regions not of the north of India just like the DNA that Ancestry is now finding, it may predate what people think as the beginning, it really is interesting to learn of such things.
-
good luck Don, look after yourself, believe it or not you have done a fantastic job, you are a credit to your Locke's, in a hundred years' time they will be speaking of you, well done Don you are a amazing fellow
Leahcim
-
Hi Leahcim
I can confirm through Y DNA that both the Boswell and Lock / Locke men share the same Y chromosome, which is clearly evident in the Y Haplogroup H DNA project.
Two of the Boswell male Y DNA participants are a 62/67 marker match to me with 5 marker mutations between us.
A third Boswell / Jackson Y DNA participant is a 61/67 marker match to me with 6 marker mutations between he and I.
I strongly believe the Boswell to Lock / Locke connection to be a bit of an older connection then has been claimed. The Lock surname was already in use before the birth of Matthew Lock.
My immigrant ancestor Richard Lock is easily 2 generations older then Matthew Lock, in fact Richard Lock was already in Colonial Virginia by 1763 or earlier and had adult children by 1763.
Some day, some year, I am hoping the Y Haplogroup H DNA project gets enough donations to be able to upgrade one of the Boswell Y DNA participants to the Big Y 700 test. I have already Big Y 700 tested and it would be darn interesting to see a Boswell upgrade too, to see how we match up with the most expensive testing there is.
I know most of the family's you speak of through the paper records research, though I have never met any of them personally. Outside of the Locke family, my closest connection to another Romany family is to the Ingram family of Pittsylvania County, Virginia mid 1700's era. My 5th great grand parents are Stephen Dennison and Elizabeth Ingram, both of Pittsylvania County, Virginia.
The Ingram Y DNA participants are also in Y Haplogroup H-M82 and are a closer Y DNA match to the Smith Y DNA participants.
I was once told by a well known Romany historian that the Romany whom were transported over seas as convicts, that is where their story ends and through my research, I am proving transportation was not the end of their story, their story picks right back up in the American Colonies whom not only survived the boat ride, but ended up being freed and thrived in the colonies and raised family's of their own.
Y Haplogroup H-M82 with the DYS425=0 null mutation is so distinct and unique, that no one can confuse a Y DNA participant in Y Haplogroup H-M82 with the DYS425=0 null mutation as being anything other then being of Romany ancestry.
We are in fact living proof Romany of the UK ended up in the American Colonies late 1600's - 1700's era. So it isn't just a historical account, or an oral story, our male Y chromosome is so distinctive and unique that we are living proof that history actually took place which lead to the oral stories many of you know about.
I brought up Richard Lock my immigrant ancestor on your thread, is because if that court record that I spoke of can ever be found, it may contain enough genealogical information for me to be able to trace the Lock family tree further back, and potentially find the Boswell connection? Possibly? Maybe? It is unknown to me if Richard Lock was born of the Lock surname, or potentially born of the Boswell surname?
Thanks for your time
Donald Locke
-
To be honest, I don't want my name being invoked in that way, I don't do any of this research to be known or famous, I do it out of love for my family whom deserve to know the truths and facts.
And besides, if any of my Locke family in the USA doesn't know my name by now, they ain't been paying attention lol. I am in direct contact with a great many Locke cousins all across the USA, some of whom are as distantly related to me as being my 5th to 6th cousin! There are 17 or 18 of us Locke male cousins Y DNA tested to date, most of whom I have never met face to face before but they Y DNA tested because of me. They wanted answers as badly as I did and why they were so eager to join me in Y DNA testing.
I could easily publish at least a dozen unrelated Lock / Locke genealogical books had I had the mind to, but that isn't my goal in life, to make money or gain fame through my work. I openly share all my research in the public eye for free for the greater good of knowledge because everyone deserves to know the truths and facts of their family history, and be able to pass down that new found knowledge on to the next generation.
-
Hi Don
I also thought that Richard could be a Boswell by birth or is Ancestors were, so i looked for a Richard, there was a Richard in the Taylor family married into the Locks from one of my DNA matches trees but that was later down the line, i think he had a nick name to, like longsnout, but keep in mind all Richards evan in later years for this may turn out to be a good clue, i am at present looking at all my DNA matches that have Locke's Locks in their tree, i have only found one male Lock who shares fragments of old DNA with me, but the trouble is he doesn't give much away but the person who managers his DNA page seems to come from America, the Locke male DNA match to me in the cousin sequence as the name B.. Locke, i have several people connected to me through DNA with the Locke's in their trees, i am looking for Locke's from the 1600s that could be an older relative to Richard, i thought the record that was found in the Locke family Bible may have had Richards older relatives name on it, and that could be the reason you have not found it, you may be searching for the wrong Locke, as in first name, or even last name, it may also say that the record comes down from the female line with a maiden name contained within, keep in mind also how the Woman of the past were treated, even in the 1900s England they had to fight hard just to have their name on a ballot paper, i have found about three Locke's so far from connected trees to me through the Cousin sequence that Ancestry send me that are from the 1600s, i only share tiny fragments of ancient DNA with my matches but we do share and connect somehow, the Locke's in my matches trees end up in today's names that are Davies and Smith and such from round the Gloucester way, i will show you more later, no doubt you already have what i may find, plus some of my DNA matches end up in married out names that no one knows of in this day and no doubt to some of them have totally lost touch or did not even know about the Gipsy's in their past, yet when i look into their trees i see very old Romany's way back in time, i will show you what i have found later.
Leahcim
-
Before I say another word, I wanted to tell you thank you for all the hard work you have put in to the Boswell family history and sharing it with the world. What you are doing is very important work and sharing every tid bit of information you have found is exactly what is needing to be done. I am so enjoying reading this thread.
Just know, even if it isn't often enough said to you, myself and many others truly do appreciate all the hard work you are putting in and sharing that research for the world to see. :)
While the family bible belonged to Rev. Jacob Lock son of Richard Lock & Mary, he did include his parents names and death dates at the top of the Death records page in the family bible.
The family bible was being passed down through the male side of the family up until the most recent generation when it was passed down to one of the daughters. But, she has since passed it on to one of her male Locke family members, to ensure the bible remains in the Locke family.
The female cousin whom owned the family bible, took wonderful photos of the birth, marriage, death pages in the bible even though the bible is in pretty rough shape and some information is missing. Between she and I, we were able to fill in the missing information so we now have a very good translation of the people and dates named in the bible. The pages in the bible are quite frail and even if the remaining pages finally do turn to dust, we have very fine quality digital images of the pages which I have shared on my genealogy facebook page in .pdf format.
It only took me the better part of 30 years of searching before the family bible was found, but try as hard as I have, the British record still has never been found. This is why I decided to share the record information with you and everyone else, just in case someone happens to run in to a similar court record and remembers that I was looking for such a record.
I keep an open mind that anything is possible when it comes to Richard Lock, he may have used an alias surname and Lock may not be his given birth name for all I know and or his first name was an alias, but Richard is a name he stuck with in all the records I can find him being named in, and the name Richard has been passed down through the generations.
While I know quite a lot about Richard Lock, there is also a lot of things that remains unknown about his past. I am sure some of my questions could be answered, if only the record could be found here in the states, but after 30 years of searching, I hold very little hope that it is still in the family.
Like many folks, I tend to have far more questions then answers. lol. :)
Again many thanks for your time and thoughts.
Don
-
Hi Don
This is the way i hope to try and help you
Through looking at my DNA matches that are unique to me i just write in the name Locke in the cousin search menu, like i have said only one person of that name comes up as a distant cousin 6th to eighth range, his name is B.. Locke whose profile is managed by June13...... June13 does not put up information about the Locke male yet when i click on her name it shows she is from America and is also searching about the family named Locke and Savage, i do not share DNA with June13.
So i go back on B.. Locke's page and where it says shared DNA i find i share DNA with B.. Locke and four other people all in one cluster all four of them are from my Maternal side of my DNA and all four of them have the Indian DNA two of them in the 20% range which is a high amount from what i have come to know through my own way of researching.
these are the four people who share DNA with me and the Locke male
DNA Maternal side
Heather ......
2nd – 3rd Cousin
.....aapsolv
4th – 6th Cousin
J.B.
Managed by worden.....
4th – 6th Cousin
Rebecca ....
4th – 6th Cousin
So Don i look through my cousin matches and see if there is anything that may help you and i find,
Worden.... who managers J.B page is from Rock Hill, York, South Carolina, USA and on their page is this information.
Romany Family Tree
Worden Family Tree
Worden/Bigham
Wharton Romany Family Tree
Bailey Family Tree
Research Interests
Bigham
1770-2000
Chester, South Carolina, USA
So i was thinking that J.B could be a Bingham, i match to several Wharton's Wardens in other clusters, and the Baileys i do not match to this Warden who managers J.Bs page yet i was thinking these are the names you write about.
Now this is how i may be able to help you, if i write to the male Locke whose DNA matches to me and who also shares DNA with me and what may turn out to be a Bingham and ask them to write to you and help you, they may not answer me and this male Locke may turn out to be one of the Locke's that do not have the H in their DNA, i was looking at some of the photos on June13 ancestry page and saw some Locke's from years back so i just googled their names and found some have the R in their DNA not the H, there is a Weldon Locke in a photo, i have not seen their DNA on-line but i am sure the photo matched a photo i saw on line with is life story this is just an extract " S..... Weldon Locke was born on September 4, 1946 to Ralph and Memory Locke in Chicago, Illinois". These Locke's may be R DNA Locke's, i am sure one had a L DNA, so without actually writing to my Locke match we will never truly know who he is, i find if you collect the whole story of everything you get the bigger picture of life, this male Locke may in his ancestry have a family connection to let's say a Stanley from the 1860s and that is the DNA that is now joining me and this Locke male in these times with the four other people in the cluster who all share Indian ethnicity, somehow i have lots of Stanley's and such names from America who share DNA with me i do wonder though why is this, then i think the Gipsy peoples were in the British lands for hundreds of years so the DNA Criss crossed between them, i see through the cluster sequence on my Ancestry page how they interlink the clusters, also one person in one cluster with more old family ties then jumps into another cluster and so on until they all link up into one big cluster, you do get some who only have one person sharing with them, maybe they are at the end of their family's in a timescale, you also see how some people share DNA with you and over a hundred others, maybe they have come from and are linked to many of the old Romany's of the past times i do not really know and i am just trying in my own way to understand there could be several types of combinations, i do know as a fact in my own clusters that the clusters only link to each other, in my Maternal line of DNA you will see other Cousin Clusters far smaller than the Gipsy clusters yet they never Criss cross each other, i have tried to be as open and honest in everything i have wrote to you in the knowledge i have been reading, try not to get disappointed in your long years of researching, remember to when you are gone to this world others reading your words will expand on your writings and find more truths, maybe you will never find all you seek and it is destined for another who comes after you to find and help in your research, i think this is just the way of it in the land of the researcher.
Don
i will look at my other matches who share DNA with me who also have the Locke's in their family tree, i will look for secrets and things and get back to you, one at a time i will do over the weeks ahead, or months but just keep looking in now and then, you don't need to keep writing to me, but you must say if anything is of interest and whether you would like me to write to anyone on your behalf, like i say they may not answer, but i least we tried
good luck Don.
-
This is likely the wrong subject for this message board for this discussion, but I will hit the DNA subject anyway lol.
As long as the Lock / Locke male is a biological son of a Mr. Locke, 100% of the males born to the same common male ancestor, will all share the same Y chromosome. In other words, it does not matter if 2 Lock / Locke men are brothers, father and son, 1st cousins or 10th cousins, because they all shared the same common male ancestor back in their family tree, they will all share the same Y chromosome.
Every biological Lock / Locke male born to the same paternal tree, share the same Y chromosome.
It is physically impossible for 2 Lock / Locke men to be in different Y Haplogroups because they can not have shared the same common male ancestor.
We can Y DNA test 100 biological Lock / Locke men whom are say the direct male descendants of Richard Lock & Mary, and all 100 men as longs as they are a biological descendant, will all share the same Y chromosome. Now it is always possible there are cases of what is known as NPE, Non Paternal Event, meaning adoption, surname change from a step son taking on his step fathers Locke surname or any number of other situations that proves he is not a biological descendant of the Locke family he grew up in. In such a case of NPE, he would carry a different Y Haplogroup, he is a Lock / Locke in name, but he can never carry the Y Haplogroup of the Locke paternal lineage that he grew up with.
All 3 branches of the Lock family tree have proven to carry Y Haplogroup H-M82.
The male descendants of the following branches, all carry H-M82.
1. Richard Lock & Mary.
2. George Lock & Sarah Hiatt
3. Matthew Lock & Remberance Boswell
It does not matter which of the three Lock branches we Y DNA test, every biological Lock / Locke male born to those specific Lock family's, as long as he is a biological descendant, should all carry
Y Haplogroup H-M82. This is exactly how we know who is related, and who is not related, by comparing a Lock / Locke male Y chromosome against all other men of of the Lock / Locke surname whom have also Y DNA tested.
A Locke in Y Haplogroup R* can not have shared a common male ancestor with a Locke in Y Haplogroup H*, physically impossible to be related to the same paternal ancestor. IE: Meaning no paternal kinship between those 2 Locke men.
The same basically applies to every paternal lineage regardless the surname being looked at, every paternal lineage has their own SNP ( Y Haplogroup ) making each paternal lineage distinct from other paternal lineages of the same surname.
The same would apply to the Boswell family. We know 3 Boswell / Jackson males have Y DNA tested and are positive for Y Haplogroup H-M82, and any other male of the Boswell surname whom are not in Y Haplogroup H-M82 can not have shared a common male ancestor with those 3 Y DNA participants.
And because the 3 Boswell / Jackson Y DNA participants do Y DNA match each other, we know those 3 specific men must have shared the same common male ancestor some where back in their family trees.
Imagine this, I can at random pick out a Mr. Lock / Locke in my family tree from any branch of the family tree and I would know if he were Y DNA tested, he too would carry Y Haplogroup H-M82 because he and I share the same common male ancestor. We can Y DNA test 12 men, 50 men even 100 men of the same surname born to the same paternal lineage of the same surname, and know he will share the same Y chromosome as the rest of the men in the tree whom have been Y DNA tested.
For many folks, that is a hard thing to grasp and visualize, but it truly does not matter how 2 men of the same surname whom are born to the same paternal lineage are related, they will share the same Y chromosome even if they are as distantly related as say 10th cousins.
If we review the same 3 Lock branches whom have proven to be a Y DNA match to one another, I will show you the Y DNA test results.
1. Richard Lock & Mary have 12 Lock / Locke males Y DNA tested, all 12 are in Y Haplogroup H-M82
2. George Lock & Sarah Hiatt have 4 Lock / Locke males Y DNA tested, all 4 are in Y Haplogroup H-M82
3. Matthew Lock & Remberance Boswell have 2 Lock / Locke males Y DNA tested, both are in Y Haplogroup H-M82
The 18 Lock / Locke Y DNA participants known as Group 2 in the Locke Y DNA project, are all a Y DNA match to each other, proving beyond any shadow of a doubt that they all shared the same common male ancestor some where back in their family trees.
The kinship between Richard Lock and Matthew Lock, is a kinship that had to have taken place back in the UK in the late 1600's to early to mid 1700's era. But regardless this old kinship between the 2 Lock men, it is clearly evident they both shared a common male Lock ancestor some where in both Lock family trees because the direct male descendants share the same Y chromosome.
That is the beauty of Y DNA testing, the Y DNA participants are either a Y DNA match, or they are not and we can rule out any direct paternal kinship between 2 men of the same surname if they do not share the same Y chromosome. Y DNA testing proving a Y DNA match, allows us to focus our genealogical research time specifically on those paternal lineages of the same surname because they have proven to be a Y DNA match.
-
Hi Don
I used to listen to Vince and Linda plus the Burton man talking about the subject of the Y DNA, in fact lots of people used to talk about it, i remember one fellow who knew so much about the history of the Gipsy's, he had knowledge of the old language in a great way, he learned of all his family history in a modern sense but then the DNA just hit the town running and was a revelation to everyone, this fellow had the test thinking he had the unbroken male line but the result came out different, i never once over the years ever have known of him talking on-line again, i felt sorry for him if he thought bad of his situation, there can be no doubt that all the evidence is true that a male line if left untouched unbroken is a true line of descent in the biological history of a male person, so if the oldest member of that family line in relatively modern history as a male was from the people known as the Romany in today's talk then the evidence is easy to understand, thank you for explaining to everyone, there may be people who read these words for the first time.
Don i am just trying to find clues in peoples shared DNA, i understand it is not the Y H DNA i am sure there are many clues out there, as you know there will be far more people without the Y H DNA than with it, yet those people will still connect, i am looking for clues through peoples family trees with or without the Y H DNA, i know a male line of Romany Locke's must all share the same Y Haplogroup H-M82. i have always known that for several years now Vince was very proud to learn of this as was the others they were very proud to know that they are from the oldest of the Romany in a direct line right back to the lands known in this time as India, and they should be proud to, if i had the Y DNA of the Romany Gipsy's i would also be proud, i hope i may be of help to you and will try my best.
Leahcim
-
I try to explain things not just for you, but for everyone whom maybe interested.
I built a chart a few years ago using my own cousins as the example of how DNA recombination plays a roll in our autosomal DNA test results.
Laura ( mother is a Locke )
Laura is a 4th cousin to Donald D., they are not a match
Laura is a 3rd cousins 1x removed to Donald G Jr., they are a match
Laura is a 2nd cousins 2x removed to Jacob, they are a match
Laura is a 5th cousin 1x removed to Crystal, they are not a match
Laura is a 4th cousin to John, they are a match
Laura is a half 1st cousin to Debra, they are a match
Laua is a half 1st cousin to Allison, they are a match
Laura is a half niece to David, they are a match
Laura is a 4th cousin 1x removed to Kenneth, they are not a match
Donald G. Jr. is a 2nd cousin 3x removed to Jacob, they are not a match
Donald G Jr is a 3rd cousins 1x removed to Laura, they are a match
Donald G Jr is a 4th cousin to Donald D., they are not a match
Donald G Jr is a 6th cousin to Crystal, they are not a match
Donald G. Jr is a 4th cousin 1x removed to John, they are not a match
Donald G. Jr. is a 3rd cousin 2x removed to Debra, they are not a match
Donald G. Jr. is a 3rd cousin 1x removed to Allison, they are a match
Donald G. Jr. is a 2nd cousin 2x removed to David, they are a match
Donald G. Jr. is a 4 cousin 2x removed to Kenneth, they are not a match
Donald D. is a 4th cousin to Laura, they are not a match.
Donald D. is a 4th cousin to Donald G Jr, they are not a match.
Donald D. is a 2nd cousin 2x removed to Jacob, they are a match.
Donald D is a 5th cousin 1x removed to Crystal, they are not a match
Donald D. is a 1st cousin to John, they are a match
Donald D. is a 4th cousin to Debra, they are a match
Donald D. is a 4th cousin to Allison, they are a match
Donald D. is a 3rd cousin 1x removed to David, they are a match
Donald D. is a 4th cousin 1x removed to Kenneth, they are not a match
Jacob is a 2nd cousin 2x removed to Donald D., they are a match.
Jacob is a 2nd cousin 3x removed to Donald G Jr., they are not a match
Jacob is a 2nd cousins 2x removed to Laura, they are a match
Jacob is a 3rd cousin 3x removed to Crystal, they are not a match
Jacob is a 2nd cousin 2x removed to John, they are a match
Jacob is a 2nd cousin 2 time removed to Debra, they are not a match
Jacob is a 2nd cousin 2x removed to Allison, they are a match
Jacob is a 2nd cousin 1x removed to David, they are a match
Jacob is a 3rd cousin 1x removed to Kenneth, they are not a match
John ( mother is a Locke )
John is a 4th cousin 1x removed to Donald G. Jr., they are not a match
John is a 2nd cousin 2x removed to Jacob, they are a match
John is a 1st cousin to Donald D, they are a match
John is a 4th cousin to Laura, they are a match
John is a 5th cousin 1x removed to Crystal, they are not a match
John is a 4th cousin to Debra, they are a match
John is a 4th cousin to Allison( no information yet )
John is a 3rd cousin 1 time removed to David, they are not a match
John is a 5th cousin 1x removed to Crystal, they are not a match
John is a 4th cousin 1x removed to Kenneth, they are not a match
Debra is a 4th cousin to Donald D. they are a match
Debra is a 3rd cousin 2x removed to Donald G. Jr, they are not a match
Debra is a 2nd cousin 2x removed to Jacob, they are not a match
Debra is a half 1st cousin to Laura, they are a match
Debra is a 4th cousin to John, they are a match
Debra is a 5th cousin 1x removed to Crystal, they are not a match
Debra is a half sibling to Allison, they are a match
Debra is a half niece to David, they are a match
Debra is a 5th cousin 1x removed to Crystal, they are not a match
Debra is a 4th cousin 1x removed to Kenneth, they are not a match
Allison is a 4th cousin to Donald D., they are a match
Allison is a 3rd cousin 1x removed to Donald G. Jr, they are a match
Allison is a 2nd cousin 2x removed to Jacob, they are a match
Allison is a half 1st cousin to Laura, they are a match
Allison is a 4th cousin to John, they are a match
Allison is a 5th cousin to Crystal, they are not a match
Allison is a half sibling to Debra, they are a match
Allison is a half niece to David, they are a match
Allison is a 4th cousin 1x removed to Kenneth, they are a match
David is a 3rd cousin 1x removed to Donald D., they are a match
David is a 2nd cousin 2x removed to Donald G. Jr., they are a match
David is a 2nd cousin 1x removed to Jacob, they are a match
David is a half uncle to Laura, they are a match
David is a 3rd cousin 1x removed to John, they are not a match
David is a half uncle to Debra, they are a match
David is a half uncle to Allison, they are a match
David is a 4th cousin 2x removed to Crystal, they are not a match
David is a 4th cousin to Kenneth, they are a match
-
I share this autosomal DNA information to show everyone that there are limitations in the autosomal DNA test that everyone may not fully be aware of.
Every one of those cousins that I just shared with you all, are paper trail proven to be directly related and I show exactly to the very degree of kinship they are to one another, and as you will see in that post, not everyone is an autosomal DNA match due to DNA recombination.
-
In that example of what I shared, I used cousin Crystal in that example because while she is a direct descendant of the same paternal Locke ancestor, she descended from a different son of the common male ancestor and she is not an autosomal DNA match to any of her cousins whom descended from another brother.
Other then Crystal, the other autosomal DNA participants all descended from the same branch of the Lock family tree, while Crystal's branch is a brother to the ancestor of all the other autosomal DNA participants. Some of the male autosomal participants have also Y DNA tested and even though some of them are not an autosomal DNA match, they are a Y DNA match!
Had they all solely relied on autosomal DNA, some of the Locke's would never have found one another, it took the use of the Y DNA test to help find one another. In our case, we already knew we were all related long before we DNA tested. But again, had some of us only relied on the autosomal DNA test, it became painfully clear to me that using autosomal DNA alone, some of us would not have found each other because not every cousin is an autosomal DNA match and it took including the use of Y DNA testing to prove they are a Y DNA match.
-
The whole point to this is, autosomal DNA is a great DNA test, but people need to understand that there are limitations due to DNA recombination, we may be an autosomal DNA match to some cousins, but not a match to all the cousins. You would never know you had more cousins autosomal DNA tested with the same DNA company you had used, because thanks to DNA recombination, they are not an autosomal DNA match to you.
I am the prime example here, I am Donald G. Jr. from that chart.
And as you all see, I am not an autosomal DNA match to my male Locke cousins, Jacob, Donald D. and Kenneth. Yet myself, Jacob, Donald D. and Kenneth also Y DNA tested and we are in fact a Y DNA match to one another. So regardless what we learned or didn't learn through autosomal DNA, it took a different DNA test the Y DNA test to help us prove kinship, even though we knew in advance that we were all related to one another years before we got involved in DNA testing.
Donald G. Jr. is a 2nd cousin 3x removed to Jacob, they are not a match
Donald G Jr is a 3rd cousins 1x removed to Laura, they are a match
Donald G Jr is a 4th cousin to Donald D., they are not a match
Donald G Jr is a 6th cousin to Crystal, they are not a match
Donald G. Jr is a 4th cousin 1x removed to John, they are not a match
Donald G. Jr. is a 3rd cousin 2x removed to Debra, they are not a match
Donald G. Jr. is a 3rd cousin 1x removed to Allison, they are a match
Donald G. Jr. is a 2nd cousin 2x removed to David, they are a match
Donald G. Jr. is a 4 cousin 2x removed to Kenneth, they are not a match
-
I understand that Don,
Thank you for taking the time to put that together, it must of been many years of research, i totally get it what you are saying, Ancestry keeps updating my DNA they to try and write in a way that makes you read and take in the knowledge that their scientists in genealogy have come to learn, they tell of how we are 50% DNA from your Father and 50% from your Mother in past down DNA they try hard to tell you why some people have difference's in their results, one brother could show south Asian DNA ethnicity while another brother does not, this is because the 50% that they each got from say their Romany mother contained different parts of her 100% that she inherited from her parents, ancestry say in DNA you can only be 50% of each parent yet your 50% from your father could be from a different grandparent, than what your brother inherited, this makes sense also, if you think about it if you only get 50% DNA from both of your parents there is 100% of DNA missing i think shared DNA being passed down changers because nature deems it that way for reasons of survival, you are who you are from say several generations back then as other relatives join you become a part of their DNA, this is who you are in today's world you can never carry all the DNA of all the many thousands of ancestor because you would have seven heads and three legs, the Haplogroup will never change and it will tell you where your far ancestor came from but who you are in this day is the shared DNA from your last maybe four generations or so, like you say through shared DNA you will miss the 50% that was never passed down yet your Haplogroup groupings will still stay the same then like you have just wrote you will see a far cousin with a name like Locke because you share the same unchanged Y H, it's great to learn things Don, thank you again, you may not like the thought Don but you are famous, and you may not write books or be wanted to be known, but again you will be wrote of in books, well done.
Don you have helped me understand what Ancestry have been saying when they put up more search results i am sure there is more to learn.
-
Don, it just happened again, Ancestry have just sent me the information of a new cousin, i have many East European Gipses in my family of DNA, now another cousin in DNA matches to me, and he has the DNA of the cold lands plus the Indian ethnicity, this time some big names from the British and American Gipses of old join this cluster, often only a few connect up to the people with European-Indian DNA ancestry, some of whom state openly their Gipsy status some give nothing away yet let you see their ethnicity.
These below are my DNA cousins who match along with me to A123. they all have the Indian ethnicity in their own DNA. in a range of 1% to 16% with many showing all the connecting countries plus some with the South Asian Iran Persia trace DNA, they are a mix of Americans and British nationalities and have very illustrious family trees. All in the 4th – 6th Cousin range, A123. is in the 5th – 8th Cousin range.
J.S. comes out of Nalor Lovells lot.
S.S. managed by the Buckland's below
Buckland
Buckland
Stanley
Stanley
Davies
Lovell
Smith
Boswell
Lee
Lee
Phillips.....as a complete ethnicity land bridge from India to England
Wharton
Gray
J.B. Managed by Worden-Wharton
Boswell
Love
and several more cousins of high regard.
Ethnicity Estimates
A123.
Ireland 0%
England & Northwestern Europe 0%
Scotland 0%
Wales 0%
Northern India 30%
Norway 29%
Aegean Islands 8%
Finland 6%
Germanic Europe 5%
Sweden & Denmark 5%
Cyprus 4%
Eastern Europe & Russia 3%
Anatolia & the Caucasus 3%
Levant 3%
Southern Italy 2%
Greece & Albania 1%
The Balkans 1%
Wow if this carries on old George Borrow will be coming to see me with some tobacco to get me talking, mind you i do not smoke but if he brings some stella i will sing like a song thrush, i better tell the wife to look out for Ian Hancock sure they will all want to know me now ???
-
If you haven't transferred your Ancestry DNA test over to Family Tree DNA, that might a good idea, to give you another database of different DNA participants to compare to, which is free to do.
Of the surnames you mentioned, some of the Romany DNA participants of those surnames have also Y DNA tested with FTDNA, and some have also autosomal DNA tested as well.
Never hurts to have your autosomal test results in more then one DNA database, to give you more people to compare to.
Not directed just for you, but for all autosomal DNA participants whom have tested with Ancestry DNA, 23&M3 DNA, My Heritage DNA, you can download your autosomal test results from the DNA company you tested with of the three I just mentioned, and upload your autosomal file to Family Tree DNA for free, whom is one of the oldest genetic genealogy DNA companies there is.
Just something to consider doing because it is free to do.
Me personally and this is just me, I am less interested in population / admixture reports, and more interested in whom we are a genetic match with, because it is those whom we are a genetic match with, proves we have a genetic kinship with that participant somewhere in our family tree. :)
No telling whom you might be an autosomal match with on the FTDNA database. As i have mentioned before, there are around 30 Romany from across Europe of around 30 plus surnames whom have Y DNA tested positive for Y Haplogroup H-M82*, some of whom have also done the Family Finder autosomal DNA test. And that is just the males that I know about, there has to be many females autosomal tested as well with FTDNA that I don't know about.
I am an autosomal DNA match with one of the Smith and Ingram Y DNA participants, so I am not just a Y DNA match with Smith and Ingram, I am also an autosomal DNA match to those same two participants. I know how I am related to the Ingram family, it is a pretty old kinship dating back to the mid 1700's era, which makes my autosomal DNA match to the Ingram Y DNA participants all the more interesting to me because it is such a distantly related kinship, I don't know how I am related to the Smith Family, yet.
One of the Smith Y DNA participants whom has also done the autosomal test, I see he has autosomal matches to some surnames of interest. he is a match to the following:
Worton, Herrin, Bryer, Stanley, Jackson / Boswell, Smith, Burton, Joles, Locke to name a few of his Romany autosomal matches, that is by no means all of his matches.
-
Hi Don
Great post that, brilliant, i took a lot away from it, my Son sent me the My Heritage DNA pack for a birthday or something, i never really got on with it, i got the Ancestry one from my Daughter i think for a similar reason the Ancestry one i find is amazing, it's so easy to navigate i am not bringing the Heritage one down its just i got the Ancestry package first and took to that, i do find the idea of having the Family Tree DNA pack a good thought, i would really like to do that i will see if i can do it, if not i will just pay for another test.
That was another good informative post you just wrote i do find your writings interesting and of knowledge that helps rather than confuse, i really do understand what you are saying about being related to someone by genetic kinship, i know a cousin is a cousin is a cousin but that will at most parts be as much sideways as backways, you by looking at the Haplogroup are seeking that straight line, i find that way of researching very true and a honest endeavor you must keep going and learn more discoveries, i try and think though that in life we have all in some way have been imprinted on, we only know and understand the universe from the teachings that have been relayed to us, why is one and then two that then goes on to become three, why do we think that statement is right, why do we think a straight line is the line of truth in who we are or come from, if you go back to the Indian lands in say the year 1100 and meet the Ancestor with the Haplogroup sure wouldn't he have just been a person of mixed DNA i try hard to think of the truth and i think we in life are brainwashed at times in everything by governments and organizations that just want us to think a certain way, how do we know really where life comes from, i know we are supposed to come from cells that evolved out of the dying of stars you know the table of elements basically remnant dust particles that formed into planets over millions of years then water being the holder of life formed cells in a primitive way, down the line animals came and we as several types of humans had our family tree back to the ape like peoples, but when did the Haplogroups start, surely it did not start in India, i am sure everyone on the planet today is only here because of shared DNA i think the scientists will find that a person can trace their lineage back in several ways not just a straight line, i know that may sound strange but i think more will come as truths in the future, i do believe as the Haplogroups as real and true and by researching that avenue what you seek you will find, well Done Don i think you have worked extremely hard.
I think you may be related to the Smiths from the Gloucester way i have been looking at all my DNA cousins who have Locke's in their tree and Vince who said he had your kind of Haplogroup comes out of them Smith Locke's to round that way, i listened to him years ago talking about certain family's, he had a massive Romany Gipsy heritage, you mentioned about the Locke's and Boswells some old names of the past well i see the connections in my DNA cousins writings on Ancestry, they have names like Davies Stevenson Smith and married out names but you see how the Locke's are there in the same family line as the Smiths, i will see what i find and get back to you.
-
If I have in any way helped and not confused you, then that makes me happy. I never want to confuse people.
I don't have all the answers, I wish I did! lol.
-
Don
It just happened again, Ancestry sent me a new cousin with the name in the link below, i know it's not the person in the link for he as passed away R.I.P. my DNA match as the same full name though bar the Jos, i wonder if he is related to the Man in the link, i searched the name out on-line. My DNA match has the Indian ethnicity yet no British or Western European DNA, i have seen in family's Violin players from Europe who are Gipsy's yet i share far DNA with their families, in Wales i have shared DNA with a Male known as Wood-Davies that had relatives who played the Harp plus i have DNA matches to the Evans who have the Roberts in their line i think they played the Harp to, such things i find interesting.
https://secondhandsongs.com/artist/113141... this is the link to a Gipsy man who as the same name as my new DNA match they may be related. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTFt_5CjkYs&t=143s this is one of his songs, he has gone to the world now but i put up his song out of respect for him, they say he is from the Gipsy's, well my match as the same name as him and the Indian DNA, i am just respecting all Gipsy peoples with this link whether i am right or wrong, but they would know that anyway.... Leahcim.
These below are some of my DNA Cousins who also along with me match to the name in the link above the name in this link may not be the person who matches to me it's just it's the same name so i put it on just in case it's a related name, all these below have the Indian ethnicity to some degree they are in the 4th to 6th Cousin range the DNA match above as in name goes up to the 8th Cousin range, there will be more Cousin matches that link up at the 6th to 8th range but Ancestry only show shared linking Cousins up till the 6th range.
Stanley.... Male, this Stanley only gives his Indian ethnicity and fine land bridge away and matches to 105 people who share DNA with the both of us, all of them have a percentage of Gipsy ancestry in their history plus a high amount of them have the Indian ethnicity in their DNA plus the connecting lands that the Gipsy's travelled through in the timescale that the scholars have wrote of, all these peoples form into clusters that then interlink with my other DNA matches who like them share the same kind of DNA that i have just wrote of above, you will see how some of them link more often through shared DNA with many clusters, there must be more to because i only keep a record of the DNA matches that link up in clusters.
Byrne…. from Coseley, Staffordshire, England, this is yours and Vince's lot, massive amount of the Davies that connect to your lot the Locke's and Smiths, both the Locke's and Smith go back to the 1600s in this lady's records.
A.L... 104 shared Gipsy DNA matches with me Managed by Anderson, when i say Gipsy i mean people with known Gipsy's in their family tree some or most will now be out of their Gipsy family and through reading what some say or who they focus on in photos well i think some do not have much of a understanding about their Gipsy ancestry yet they still carry the DNA. In their paper trail through the census reports that forms their family tree you see how they come out of the Gipsy's of old, others it is plain to see know and are very proud of who they descend from.
Anderson… this one and the one above gives nothing away but share 84 DNA matches with me.
Pearce... American with Stanley Lee all in the close history, massive Gipsy ancestry ...that then goes back to Gipsy's like Edward Boswell 1776–1851 in his amazing family tree it's like reading the history of the history of the British Gipsie's that went from these lands to America. R.I.P.
Jeffery.... Female gives nothing away but is in a cluster of 79 other people with Gipsy ancestry.
George.... Male from Atlanta, Fulton, Georgia, USA from the Stanley Smalls Harrisons with names that go back to James (**) Small (c1736) R.I.P.
Pearce.... Male, American. Coopers Lee Jeffery's Fisher... going back to Magnolia Palmer, Maranda Lock 1848–Robert Lock 1814– Myrtle Smith Lee, 1900–Woodvine Smith, Shadrack Boswell
1735– Mathias Cooper1849–and many more of high regard. R.I.P
Lee... Female from the Wales lot the Lees and Jones....Freddy Lee 1911– R.I.P.
Lee. Female born and bred from the Wales lot, Elizabeth Lee 1905–1990 Harold Lee 1946–2009 Henry Lee 1904–1984 Molly Lee 1943–2010 Silas Toby Lee 1914–1973 samson Lee 1919–1998 Agnes Mochan 1919–1996 Eva Hearne 1921–2004 Geraldina Price 1942–2012 Charles Henry price 1910– Elizabeth Ann Edwards 1911. R.I.P.
Sammy... Female. American, directly out of the Smith Cooper then Joles plus Florence (Fince )
Harrison 1882–1976. R.I.P.
Phillips... Female. she shares with me over 120 Gipsy matches but gives nothing away.
J.B. Managed by worden Wharton's American.
Buckley.. comes out of John Buckley 1945–2001 Biggleswade, Bedfordshire, England. R.I.P.
There are several more DNA Cousin matches but they do not give much away.
Don i am looking into the connections with Vince's lot, you already know everything no doubt but i am trying to find things, no need to answer this post i will get back to you soon.
-
Hi Don
I will write up tomorrow a few more things that i have found.
-
Hi Don
I have many D.N.A matches to the Gloucestershire way you know the Smiths Stevens Davies they are linked with the Locke's Locks, I am just looking though for anything that may trigger an hidden meaning, one of the male Smiths who i cousin D.N.A match to and goes by the name of H. Smith shares 74 D.N.A. matches with me who are all from people with known Gipsy ancestry me and this Smith male both match to people from America. On Ancestry D.N.A it is stated that they come down a line of locks, the locks start of in Wales at the turn of the 1800s and end up in California.
These are the locks
William Edward Lock 1931–1974 Eben Loyd Lock 1894–1948 Ebenezer (Eben-Edward) Lock 1850–1935 Zacharia Lock 1827–1887
I read this piece below on-line -Born in Wales on abt 1827 to Henry Lock and Elizabeth F Lock. Zacharia Lock married Elizabeth O'Connor and had 3 children. He passed away on 25 Sep 1887 in Oakland, Alameda, California, USA.
I am through D.N.A related to three people from America who come down through this line of Locks both on the male line and the female line plus the Indian ethnicity still is showing up in two of the them through their own personal D.N.A, true they may have got there Gipsy D.N.A from someone else in Wales like a Lee from the 1700s or evan someone from America, i am just trying to find clues, this is the important bit they all share D.N.A with me and many other people with Gipsy ancestry there is not one link between us that contains a person who is not in a D.N.A Gipsy cluster and of great value is the fact that through D.N.A they relink to each other this I think isolates by a good percent the Lock name as the binding reason for the reason of their D.N.A cluster link combining this with their D.N.A linking with the Gloucestershire Smiths as noted above i think they are worth looking into, i just think of your original question about Richard so i look for anything that may contain clues I have been reading the older posts on roots chat and I see you and Vince are well acquainted, these below are a few of the names in the male Smith mans line who I started this post with, he links to me and the American Locks he links twice and I three times this will only be through our own personal D.N.A
Abraham (Bummie) Smith 1876–Aaron Smith 1788–1859 Merrick Lock 1782–1861 James Smith 1813–1876 Sarah Locke 1811–1888 Abraham Mustoe 1809–1869 Jane Mustoe 1840–Thomas Mustoe 1779–1847 Eleanor Stevens 1817–1891 Robert Stevens 1783–1849 Absalom Smith 1768–1826 Archeleus Smith 1829–Arthur Smith 1777–1822 Cinderella Smith 1845–Elizabeth Smith1735–Elsie Smith Gilroy (Sonner) Smith 1900–1995 Henry Smith 1943–Isabella Smith 1874–1966 Lavinia T Smith 1795–Louisa Smith 1808–1872 Mark Smith 1800–1869 Neptune Smith 1775–1855 Sampson Smith 1841–
these are the posts on roots chat that made me know not to write up everything, i wonder what Vince would think of my many D.N.A matches.
Extracts
Travelling People / Re: Stevens - Loveridge
on: Monday 02 April 12
My x2 Grt Grandad, was Guilroy Smith, brother of the preacher Reuben Smith. Guilroy was married to Eve Stevens, who was in turn the daughter of Manny Stevens and Eve Lock.
The Stevens, Locks and Smiths married into each other a lot, often first cousins, and usually several siblings from one family would marry several siblings from another family.
all that I have learned.....Romany Jib team, Don Lock and Eric Trudgill.
Vince.
Re: Nellie Davis
on: Sunday 15 January 12
Thanks to Eric trudgill's piece on Merrick Lock, ( our ancestor), I know now that Annie Davies, was infact Sarah Anne Davies, and that Natty and guilroy were brothers.
the Smiths, Davies and Locks, appear to have been so intermarried, that anyone researching these clans in Glos. would need to consider that the names can end up being interchangeable.
Re: Stevens
on: Thursday 15 September 11
on the Traveller board, you'll see contact info for Don Lock. If not I'll pm his contact.
My ancestor, was Eve Stevens, daughter of Manny Stevens and Eve Lock. She married my grt grt Grandfather, Guilroy Smith. Scources: Don Lock and Sue Day
Travelling People / Re: Gyspy Surname
on: Saturday 26 September 09
I did a test with don Lock's project and one of the great surprises is the amount of people who carry the Gypsy gene and don't know it. It is rarer on the female side (up to yet) because gypsy men have always married out. I was somewhat surprised to find that my smith line went back to India. Had I done the female line,
I now get e-mails from people all over the world desperate for an explanation as to why they have an Indian root when they only have European ancestry in living memory. Just shows how many got deported.
Don i will go back through all my D.N.A matches and find all the old Lock Locke names within them and just write the names and dates down here, if then you would like me to write to any of them i will email them with your contact details.
Also i just found this....Memberency Rememberence Boswell 1779–1869 she is an ancestor of another one of my D.N.A cousin matches with Matthew Locke 1785–1871 and Devit Margaret Boswell Smith 1753–1841 Horsforth, St Margaret, Yorkshire in the same tree but guess what, this cousin match is also matched along with me to the descendant's of Zacharia Lock 1827–1887. We all link up through the cousin sequence in another cluster.
-
Hi Don
Like i told you i will write down all the Lock Locke names that are contained within all my D.N.A.
cousin match's trees, i will only be able to show you what they show me, if you are interested i will give them your contact details, what you ask of them will be up to you so if anything i write rings a bell just say which D.N.A match is of interest you never know something may lead you back to Richard, i will only put a few names on that i think may help you to form a bigger picture there will be no need for you to answer any of these posts when i am done i will just leave things there and no doubt we will not speak again, good luck with your research, if by chance you are not interested in such things just say nothing, i am sure that these writings of mine will be of help to others. I will be leaving the country for a few weeks soon, i will continue posting on my return i will say at the end when i am finished.
This below will be D.N.A. match no. 3. from England. no. 1. will be on the previous post about H. Smith the male from the Gloucestershire lot. no. 2 will be the three Locks descended from Zacharia Lock from Wales who died in America but comes out of Henry Lock stated as being from England.
D.N.A. match no. 3. Female Born and bred a Davies from both sides a very impressive family tree we share 41 D.N.A. matches all Gipsy descendants including Davies and Smiths below names of interest that may be of interest.
George Davis 1755–Thomas Smith 1727–1838 Mary m Lock / Locke 1685–1745 Sarah Hannah Taylor Smith 1729–1834 Jeremiah / Jerry Davis 1804–1863 Aaron Smith 1788–1859 James Smith 1813–1876 Edmond V. Lock 1653–1728 Elizabeth Lock 1754–1797 George Lock / Locke 1754–1814
Elizabeth Stevens 1758–James Stevens 1730–1796 John Stevens 1688–1768 John Locke 1686–1731 Eve Lock 1804–1885 Corneilius Stephens 1871–1928 Sarah Anne Stephens 1917–1999 Thomas Stephens 1831–1881 George Lock 1724–1764 Abraham Smith 1680–1747 Comfort Smith 1775–1870 Isaac Smith 1712–James Smith 1735–1830 James Smith 1767–1830 James Smith 1813–1876
James "Gemmy The Gypsy" Smith 1767–1830 Jasper Smith 1749–1838 Jemima Smith 1747–1803
John Smith 1690–1761 John Smith 1723–1785 John Smith 1727–1785 Nathaniel Smith 1843–1921
Nathaniel Smith 1844–1921 Susanna Smith Thomas Smith 1692–1759 William Smith 1704–1766
Aaron 1 Legged Smith 1788–1859 Thomas Smith 1686–1759 Cinnamenta smith 1880–1965 Austin Davis1762–1835Ben Davis 1700–George Davis 1720–Jane Davis Jeremiah / Jerry Davis 1804–1863 John Davis Sarah Davis 1806–Thomas Davis 1739–1824 Mizzeley Davis
1907–1994 Merrick Lock 1782–1861 Sarah Lock 1811–1888 William Davis 1772–Sarah Ann Davis
1850–Thomas Davies 1791–Sarah Lock Smith 1811–1888 ? Davies 1740–Ann Davies 1817–1885
Benjamin Davies 1774–1874 Cornelius Davies 1879–1946 Cornelius james Davies 1908–1984 David Davies 1791–1868 Edith Davies 1889–1953 Edward Davies 1780–1860 James Davies 1790–1851
James Davies 1841–James Davies 1848–1932 James Alexander Gill Davies 1856–1935 John Davies
1809–1894 John Davies 1833–1898 Mary Davies 1809–1882 Sarah Davies Sarah Anne Davies 1840–Shirley Pearl Davies 1938–1999 Thomas Davies 1811–1888 William Davies 1800–1905 William H Davies 1884–1962 Wisdom Davies 1909–1976 Wisdom Davies 1938–2020 wisdom Davie's
1893–1965.
And look at these two i have been researching the Smiths and camping grounds in my own place of Nottingham then would you believe it these two just come along who are in my D.N.A. cousin match's family tree, and Bullwell is right next to Hucknall where the Derbyshire Boswells stayed Linda's lot. The Smiths i am sure are woven into my Mothers D.N.A. going back to times unknown, the bigger picture is there for all, maybe its not even hidden just like Dan Boswells old gravestone its right under your feet said the old Church helper who showed me the spot where he buried the remaining fragment that was left from the stone first erected many years before, then through me reading vast amounts of what could be said of as endless boring information i found that in 1963-64 the Church burial ground was littered with old broken gravestones so the people of this time connected to the Church used the old toppled gravestones to form walkways around the Churchyard, so Dan Boswell the Gipsy of long years still has all his gravestone in the the Church ground and both bits are under your feet, one day someone may dig up a path and find the true Epitaph when they combine the broken gravestones from the walkway and the buried one that lays buried just Infront of the the new erected stone from the 70s, also the Church helper told me the new gravestone is facing the wrong way, Dan was actually buried facing the Church if you stand a stride infront of the new stone turn to your left and there lays the Gipsy, Daniel Boswell. I found all this out by chance and by just digging away at chances that came my way, i was very lucky indeed the day i chanced by Selston, Dan was there to when i first approached his tomb i stopped in my track's i could feel him in a seeing way he told he was waiting sad to touched with anger within the moment he was gone he never came back, that's just the way of it.
John Smith 1723–1785 Thomas Smith 1686–1759 bullwell Nottingham.
All the information that i am writing about is information that i come across what is correct or
totally wrong or even something between is something that only time will reveal.
-
This is my 999th post.
I would like for anyone who ever Chance's this way to learn about Richards writings, i do not know Richard but at the beginning of these posts Richard just popped up and helped me, he wrote about a small part of the history of the Boswells and other Gipsy's if you read through the posts at the beginning of this thread you will read several from Richard, I looked at how he searched the National Newspaper Archives and found amazing story's, so i copied him and self learned to search myself. Richard i would say searchers for honest truth for all truth is seldom honest yet to search through honest eyes is a feat seldom reached i am sure he is always updating his findings and correcting at length through newer works yet to be published. So this my 999th post is wrote here for Richard to highlight his writing's and ongoing studies.
richarde1979
RootsChat Veteran
*****
Posts: 931
View Profile
Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #107 on: Monday 11 June 18 08:56 BST (UK) »
"The Y haplo tests are much more reliable than the 'ethnicity' or 'MTdna tests', which are just too vague or unreliable"
I tend to agree with you on the ethnicity tests in general Sally, though I tested with LivingDNA, and it was about 85% acccurate compared to my paper research. It was very accurate with English counties, but not so great identifying regions outside those (Ireland, Scotland, France etc) so I think the companies are slowly getting better in that respect, as more people test, and their databases expand.
That said I would not agree with that analysis of mtDNA. mtDNA is not vague or unreliable, it gives very precise and accurate ancestry results:
"mtDNA is passed down exclusively from your mother. Because mtDNA does not include a combination of DNA from both parents, it does not change with every generation.In fact, mtDNA changes extremely slowly – it might remain exactly the same for dozens of generations!
mtDNA testing ignores the main DNA in a cell, and looks just at the DNA of the mitochondria instead. Among other things, that means the test only has to examine about 16,500 genetic base pairs, instead of the 3.2 billion base pairs found in our DNA."
In tracing links to ancient populations, it is of far more value than Y Haplogroups, because mtDNA is present in higher numbers than nuclear DNA, and it is more likely to survive intact in ancient remains.
Despite the very ancient results it typically gives, in terms of Romany people in Europe, or Romany descended people, it is still of clear use and interest, as there are a few haplogroups, including my own, which are almost exclusively seen in the Romany population, but otherwise virtually absent in the wider general European population. In my own case it was crucial in backing up the paper evidence and family lore, and is much more reliable as evidence than trace South Asian autosomal ethnicity results, which as you rightly point out may not always be very reliable and are frequently seen in many tested people.
There are some examples of Romanies noted as 'Black men' or 'Negroes' in relation to prominent UK Romany families, Hearns, Lovells, etc, in my book 'The Early Romany Boswells: A Family History 1650-1810 Part 2', which was published by the Romany and Traveller Family History Society, in February this year, and is still available:
https://www.richedmunds.co.uk/earlyboswells2
There are also several further examples I have identified in relationship to the Romany Smiths, which I will be publishing in my forthcoming work on that family, available January next year. Thanks for the interest Sally.
https://www.richedmunds.co.uk/post/romani-origin-dna
https://www.richedmunds.co.uk/post/dna-a-window-to-the-deep-past
-
Happy New Year everyone!
I wish I had all the answers, I don't, unfortunately. I can say this with some authority though, that it is when we start making use of all three types of DNA tests, autosomal, Y DNA and MtDNA, can we see things more clearly in the long run.
Until the Romani people as a whole start understanding that there is more to genetic genealogy then just the use of the autosomal DNA test, they are not getting to see all the evidence, they are only getting to see a part of the evidence.
Yes the Y DNA and MtDNA tests are more expensive, but so much more can be learned through Y DNA and MtDNA testing then can be learned through the autosomal test.
That is where we as a people are behind the learning curve, because not enough of us are using the
other types of genetic genealogy tests, Y DNA and MtDNA tests to be able to see the bigger picture.
I have already shared the examples of DNA recombination in this thread to show that the autosomal DNA test has limitations. Those limitations should be a wake up call to everyone as to why we need to start using both Y DNA and MtDNA to our knowledge base as further genetic evidence, and not solely rely on autosomal DNA as our sole source of evidence. :)
And today with the advancements in DNA technology, the Big Y 700 test is now available which is a pretty expensive Y DNA ( STR ) and SNP ( Y Haplogroup ) combination test.
The small handful of Romani men having upgraded to the Big Y 700 test is already showing us new evidence that was previously unknown for those of us in Y Haplogroup H*.
This is where we as a people can make big things happen, by making donations to the various DNA projects that involves the Romani people, to help get some of those DNA upgrades being paid for through donations.
In the Locke DNA project, just in the month of December 2022, the project was able to upgrade an existing Y DNA participant to the Big Y 700 test and pay for a free 37 marker Y DNA test to another Locke participant, which was made possible thanks to the generous donations being made to the Locke project. Being able to offer free upgrades or even free tests should be in everyone's best interests whom are wanting more answers.
This is how we all can make things happen, by making donations to any DNA project that is related to the Romani people, to help get more Romanies involved in Y DNA testing.
The British Romany DNA study is a prime example, ask a Romani to pay for a more expensive DNA test out of their own pocket and they may refuse, but offer them a free test and they are more likely to be open to the idea.
While I am the Admin of both the Locke DNA project and Y Haplogroup H project, there are other DNA projects that have Romani participants in them whom could benefit from donations so free upgrades can be done and free tests can be offered. :)
-
Hi
I have just found your posts and have not caught with them all, but was interested to see your connected to the DNA ---LOCKE as well . A brick wall !!!!!
My LOCKES came to South Australia abt 1854 after marrying in DUNKERRIN, KINGS COUNTY.
JOHN LOCKE born abt 1820 DUBLIN
MARRIED -- ELIZABETH COOPER
The scattered info i have is the family back ground is HORSES -- he cared George MINCHIN ESQUIRE --HUNTING HOUNDS IN BUSHERSTOWN where the first 2 kids were bron prior to coming to Australia
I have spent decades trying to find his and her family in Ireland, i do have his Ire -Marriage cert but have never been able to dig them up .
I have just found am a LEE descendant ( LONDON / KENT- Tower Hamlets)
Henry Lee born abt 1804 ( say his convict records lolol) came here to Aust as a convict 1821 and John 1819 -both brothers convicts .
I have of course been able to follow HENRY's life .
John Lee his brother born about 1803 was a --Chair Bottomer ---- REf/ his Newgate records. Thankfully, because his Australian convict records changed it to some other occ term that did'nt give us as much context as that description did.
John really did it tough in Australia and was whipped a lot with 50 at each event -- and sent to very serious isolated convict colonies for re offenders ie _Newcastle NSW where he shovelled coal
Poor John i have tried to find his fate and never have sadly
I lost him about 1831 ish in Sydney in a census .
Once he got his ticket of freedom i think he ran off to the hills and changed his name so i have never found his fate .
Now i have discovered my LEE's were Romany ( through many sources ) .. i now wonder if my LOCKES may have been Gypsies or even travellers in Ireland .
Any ideas ..
But i actually came here today to look for info re my GGG Father WATERMEN ===THOMAS HARRIS
( Gravesend, HARRIS'S ) who was bound to T, HENRY 1762- 21/7/1796
Master Henry T, ROGERS .
So i better do it .
-
Hi Susilee
I know of no Ireland connection for the Locke family, not to my personal knowledge anyway.
I do know at least one Romani Locke ended up in Australia if I recall correctly, but I believe he was able to return to the UK at some point in time, none to my personal knowledge remains in Australia.
I do know for a fact that there is a branch of Romanies of the Lee surname in Australia, in fact a
Mr. Lee of Australia was one of the early Y DNA participants whom was placed in Y Haplogroup H-M82.
So that much I can confirm, there is a Romani family of the Lee surname in Australia.
This is one of the many reasons we end up resorting to Y DNA testing on the men, to see which lineage of their surname they are related to, which can be exceedingly helpful with the genealogical paper trail research.
Locke, Lee and Cooper are all three known Romani family surnames, but they are also very common surnames and obviously not all Locke, Lee and Cooper lineages are of Romani ancestry.
-
Thanks So much
You may be familiar with the Australian MANDY SAYER book
"Secrets of the Australian Gypsies "
She covers convict days and now and interviews many current families .
She mentions LEE brothers in her book .
Is your opinion that LOCKE is not a regular Irish name ? and i am wondering if they have come over to Ireland from England and i should perhaps extend my research to England although he was born in Dublin .
I have worked on them for a very long time in Ireland and gotten nothing .
-
This is the Travelling People forum, so I presumed you were talking about my Locke family whom are Romani.
The Lock / Locke surname in general, is used in England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Sweden, Germany with immigrants spread across the globe. There are over 30 unrelated male lineages identified through Y DNA of the Lock and Locke surname and counting. Just in the UK alone, there could very easily be another additional 30 to 100 paternal lineages of the Lock / Locke surname that haven't been identified through Y DNA.
Yes there are Locke's of Irish ancestry too. I don't know a lot about the Irish Lock / Locke families, though I do know of them.
-
You know at this point they could be anything really i guess i just have not been able to find anything on them in Ireland at all except their marriage in 1845 prior to leaving for Australia. Except obits in Aust that were very dry of details in Ireland and mainly re Aust.