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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Selkirkshire => Topic started by: julie7239 on Friday 30 October 15 03:53 GMT (UK)
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I have found contradictory information on the internet about Beatrice Elizabeth Park, with three different dates of birth given for her and two different places of birth, but the same husband with all his details that agree, and the same son. I think she was born on 16th March 1869 in Galashiels, Selkirk, Scotland.
Her father was John Park and her mother Elizabeth Shiel.
The Scotland Census 1871 gives her living in Galashiels, Scotland, age 2.
I am curious about her, and also her mother Elizabeth Shiel.
Her husband was a sergeant major in the Royal Scots Greys, so after marriage she did seem to travel and did live in London, though she seems to have died in South Shields. Her son was born in Edinburgh.
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One of my ancestors I have long been curious about is Beatrice Elizabeth Park, born 16th March 1869 in Galashiels, Selkirk, Scotland. Her father was John Park and her mother was Elizabeth Shiel. The Scotland Census for 1871 gives her living in Galashiels, age 2.
I read that she married a Regimental Sergeant Major in the Royal Scots Greys on 18th November 1897. Her son was born in Purshell Barracks, Edinburgh in 1899, but is shown living in Islington, London in the 1901 census.
I am curious to find out anything about her or her mother Elizabeth Shiel.
Topics merged to prevent duplication,
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Where have you found this contradictory information? A quick check in the Scottish census 1871-1901 show her living in Galashiels. In 1871 and 81, she has a birth year of 1869, and living with her parents. In 1901, she is living with her sister Margaret, although her age is given as 28, instead of 32. Whether this is accidental, or on purpose, who knows.
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ3M-5B8
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Hi ,
Could be that these are 2 different Elizabeth Park's :-\
The one in 1901 that Pinefamily found in Galashiels Selkirkshire(although the age is out) and the one in London in 1901.
Can't see a likely marriage in Scotland or England , Do you have further details ?
ev
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Where have you found this contradictory information? A quick check in the Scottish census 1871-1901 show her living in Galashiels. In 1871 and 81, she has a birth year of 1869, and living with her parents. In 1901, she is living with her sister Margaret, although her age is given as 28, instead of 32. Whether this is accidental, or on purpose, who knows.
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ3M-5B8
This link http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Park-1451 shows her as born in 1878 in Chelsea, London, which just looks totally wrong and misleading.
It is the right woman, she did marry Harry Rolls, who was a Regimental Sergeant Major in the Royal Scots Greys, on 18th November 1897, and gave birth to her son, also called Harry Rolls on 27th October 1899 in Purshell barracks, Edinburgh. The marriage was probably in London.
I think the wikitree writer might have got her date and place of birth wrong as she did move around with her husband's job. The family does seem to have been based in London at some times, possibly in Chelsea barracks. A younger daughter, Hilda Beatrice Rolls, was born to her in Islington, London, on 16th March 1904.
(Her husband Harry Rolls was born on 26th February 1873 in Staffordshire, England, and apparently became a Chelsea pensioner, so the wikitree writer might have confused this with his wife's birth place).
Her son's birth place is given in another source as South Leith, Scotland, so still Edinburgh.
And yes, I did find a third source that gave her date of birth a couple of years out. Probably usual stumbling blocks when you are researching these things, but it is wonderful when you get a streak of accurate information that really tells you something about your ancestor, as from a Census. Thank you for your help.
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Can't see a likely marriage in Scotland or England , Do you have further details ?
ev
Beatrice Elizabeth Park married Harry Rolls on 18th November 1897 in Hackington, England.
But their son, also called Harry Rolls, was born on 27th October 1899, Purshell barracks, South Leith, Scotland. Harry Rolls the father was a Regimental Sergeant Major in the Royal Scots Greys at the time. They had an older daughter born 29th September 1898, also in Edinburgh, Scotland http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Rolls-145
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Where have you found this contradictory information? A quick check in the Scottish census 1871-1901 show her living in Galashiels. In 1871 and 81, she has a birth year of 1869, and living with her parents. In 1901, she is living with her sister Margaret, although her age is given as 28, instead of 32. Whether this is accidental, or on purpose, who knows.
Added-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ3M-5B8
That date of 1901 as living with her sister seems contradictory to having married in 1897 and having her children from 1898, though it is possible that she was just staying with her sister on the Census dates.
A long time ago I found a source that said she died in South Shields, but I wasn't sure if I had the right information there. It looked as though she had family in the Scottish borders region and went back a lot.
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Beatrice Elizabeth Park married Harry Rolls on 18th November 1897 in Hackington, England.
The marriage in 1897 in Hackington Kent lists Beatrice as Elizabeth Beatrice age 21 with father Samuel Park and the 1901 and last census both list her as born in 1878 in Chelsea :-\
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Beatrice Elizabeth Park married Harry Rolls on 18th November 1897 in Hackington, England.
The marriage in 1897 in Hackington Kent lists Beatrice as Elizabeth Beatrice age 21 with father Samuel Park and the 1901 and last census both list her as born in 1878 in Chelsea :-\
Thank you for finding this information for me. I was starting to wonder why she would have waited until she was nearly thirty to have her first child, and then have about five children in a few years. Being in her early twenties when she married and started her family sounds more likely.
I have wondered about her and struggled to find information about her for years.
Pity not having the Scottish connection, other than Harry being in Edinburgh for his job and their first two children born there.
Still, I wondered about the other Beatrice Elizabeth Park, and that gave a glimpse into the life of a woman who lived long ago.
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FreeBMD have a death for a Beatrice E Rolls 1st quarter 1937 age 59(born c1878) , Birmingham.
For some reason the 1897 marriage doesn't show on freeBMD if you enter Beatrice or Elizabeth ???
ev
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FreeBMD have a death for a Beatrice E Rolls 1st quarter 1937 age 59(born c1878) , Birmingham.
For some reason the 1897 marriage doesn't show on freeBMD if you enter Beatrice or Elizabeth ???
ev
Thanks for that information. At last I know something about her. All this sounds right.
I just found a source that says she was married in St. Stephens, Hackington, Canterbury, Kent. It gives the date 10th November 1897.
And that says she was born on January 3rd 1877 in Chelsea, London, in the borough of Islington, and her father was Samuel Park(s), a seaman in the Royal Navy, the 1881 census shows him as age 25, a Stoker on the HMS Superb, born in Lee, Kent, in 1856.
There seem to be question marks whether the surname for both Beatrice and her father Samuel is Park or Parks.
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That information may be misleading. There doesn't appear to be an Elizabeth Beatrice Park(s) of any combination in the London area in that time frame, both on FreeBMD and ancestry. Is this source another online tree?
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OK, searching for a marriage for Harry Rolls, I found the marriage to an Elizabeth Park; no "s", no middle name Beatrice. Searching for an Elizabeth Park, I found a birth entry on FreeBMD in the December quarter of 1879 in Islington registration district.
On ancestry, I then found an Elizabeth Park baptised on November 17th 1879, to a William Joseph Park and wife Elizabeth.
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That information may be misleading. There doesn't appear to be an Elizabeth Beatrice Park(s) of any combination in the London area in that time frame, both on FreeBMD and ancestry. Is this source another online tree?
She was Beatrice Elizabeth Park.
Beatrice's marriage was in Hackington, which I just found out is in Canterbury, Kent. I had assumed it was in London. St Stephens is a parish in north west Canterbury.
I read that Beatrice was illegitimate, and there is no mention of her mother, only her father. There doesn't seem to be any chance of finding much out about her parents, and this felt like a dead end. I was wondering what happened there, maybe her mother died young or giving birth to her, and her young father brought her up, maybe with the help of his female relatives. Very unusual for them to be not married in those days. He was a seaman who would have been away a lot.
Her father, Samuel Park(s) was born in Lee, Kent, and I had to look it up, and it looks as though it would nowadays be considered part of London, but in 1856 was a Kent village.
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You really need a copy of the 1897 marriage of Harry Rolls to Elizabeth Beatrice Park to confirm her father Samuel's occupation at least and you have the right Samuel Park(s). The details given of the marriage on Ancestry are very basic and do not include father's occupations, addresses at the time of their marriage or witnesses who might be relatives. The marriage ref number is Dec Quarter 1897 Blean Registration District Vol 2a Page 1897
I think this could be Beatrice Elizabeth in 1891 living in Islington with mother Clara and brother - I can't see this family in 1881 :-\
Clara Park 32 Widow b Lewisham
Herb W Park 15 b Bloomsbury
Beatrice E Park 14 b Chelsea
Harry Thompson 24 Lodger b Canterbury
If this is the right Beatrice/ Elizbeth -- Harry the lodger married a Rebecca Hartley Park in 1895 in Islington and they were living together in 1901 with stepson Herbert W Park as below. The ages and birthplaces of Rebecca in 1901 and Clara in 1891 are very similar and with Herbert being her son it is possible that Clara as listed in 1891 might be the same person as Rebecca Hartley Park in 1901?? :-\
Harry Thompson 35 b Canterbury
Rebecca H Thompson 43 b Catford Kent
Herbert W Park 25 b Bloomsbury
Kay
Edit -I think you have access to Ancestry - Have a look at this family tree http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/25308367/person/1716281207
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Kay, thank you for all that information. It is a lot I need to work on. I would have come to a stop much earlier than finding this family.
I found this information about the marriage, "marriage witnesses were Frederick William Iggulden and Frank Carlyle Forrester".
I might also try looking up Samuel Park(s)' birth, death or marriage certificates.
These people are starting to feel like real people, interesting. Thank you.
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I found some interesting information on Ancestry.com.
Something labelled "from England Select Marriages 1538 to 1973", listed under Harry Rolls, age 24, born 1873, marriage date 18th November 1897, Hackington, Kent, the household as Harry Rolls, Benjamin Rolls, Elizabeth Beatrice Park and Samuel Park.
I clicked on Samuel Park's name and Elizabeth Beatrice Park is listed as his "child".
I didn't have time to explore further, but this definitely links father Samuel Park with his daughter Beatrice Elizabeth and Harry Rolls.
I do know that Harry's parents were Bengamin (sic) Rolls, born 1836, and Harriet Davis, born 1835.
So it looks as though this information is about the wedding, and both their fathers are listed as "household"? I am wondering if this means they were physically present and living together in a household?
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More information on Samuel Park from the censuses.
In the 1861 census he is listed as age 5. Father James and mother Elza (sic). Born Plumstead, Kent, civil parish Lee. Household listed as James 38, Elza 29, Martha 15 and Samuel 5.
In the 1871 census Samuel Parks, age 15, born 1856. Royal Navy, Portsmouth Harbour, Boy 2nd Class. Given as born Kennington, Surrey which seems odd so not sure if that is the right person.
In the 1881 census, Samuel Parks, birth about 1856 in Lee, Kent. Residence 1881 Vessels, Royal Navy, England. Age 25. "Superb", occupation Stoker, Royal Navy.
In the 1901 census, Samuel Parks and spouse Clara Parks. His birth place is given as Mayfield, Hailsham, Sussex, so this might not be the right person. Household given as Samuel Parks age 44, Clara age 43, Clara A age 22 and Mary E age 8.
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I didn't manage to find that tree on Ancestry. I will try again later.
http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/25308367/person/1716281207
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I didn't manage to find that tree on Ancestry. I will try again later.
http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/25308367/person/1716281207
Do you have access to Ancestry trees?? If not I will explain in more detial
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I didn't manage to find that tree on Ancestry. I will try again later.
http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/25308367/person/1716281207
Do you have access to Ancestry trees?? If not I will explain in more detial
I was using Ancestry in our local library and couldn't find where to use that url to search for the tree. When I was logged on to Ancestry at the library I tried entering the url into both the address bar and google, but it didn't take me back to where I was logged on.
I didn't have enough time and also find Ancestry a difficult site to find my way around, even first steps like making sure to specify England so it doesn't drown you in American information.
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OK - Based on the Anc tree I posted a linkto and checking the census etc on Ancestry Beatrice’s mother was a Rebecca Hartley Wool born about 1854 in Lewisham, Kent. The Anc tree lists both Beatrice Elizabeth and brother Herbert William as the children of Rebecca Hartley Wool and a Mr Wilson who she did not marry
In 1881 I think that Rebecca Hartley Wool listed as single was living with her sister and brother in law in Islington with both Beatrice and her brother Herbert living separately under the surname Wilson. I think Beatrice Eliz Wilson is listed in 1881 as age 4 born Pimilco, Middlesex and a visitor in Mile End Old Town with a William Luckie and family.
Beatrice I think was registered as Beatrice Elizabeth W Wilson in Chelsea Reg District Mar Qtr 1877 Vol 1c Page 54 - Possibly the middle initial was for Wool
In 1884 a Rebecca Hartley Wool married a Samuel Alexander Park in Islington and by 1891 Rebecca/Clara is listed as a widow – so Samuel Alexander Park died - or left the family
I think Samuel was Beatrice Elizabeth's stepfather not her father
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Thanks that is interesting and agrees with what I read that Beatrice was illegitimate.
As you said I need to get a copy of the marriage certificate of Harry Rolls and Beatrice Elizabeth Park, to see if Samuel was physically present at the wedding to sign the certificate, or sign his name somewhere. He would have been legally her father if he had married her mother and given Beatrice his name.
I did find that Rebecca married Harry Thompson in the ecclesiastical parish or St Paul Balls Pond Canonbury, and looked up where it is, Islington. https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Islington_St_Paul,_Balls_Pond,_Middlesex_Genealogy
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Yes - The marriage cert would be good. Samuel wouldn't have to be present at the time of the marriage to be listed as her father
The only Samuel Alexander Park that I can see was born 1851 in Greenwich. Kent and also appears to have been at sea as there is an Samuel Alexander Park age 32 born Woolwich, Kent who was awarded his Master's Certificate on 18 Jun 1883 at Plymouth but it is possible this is the wrong person and the only way to be sure would be the 1884 marriage cert to Rebecca Hartley Wool - Wonderful name!
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I did find that Rebecca married Harry Thompson in the ecclesiastical parish or St Paul Balls Pond Canonbury, and looked up where it is, Islington. https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Islington_St_Paul,_Balls_Pond,_Middlesex_Genealogy
Did you find the actual marriage? Does it list her father??
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No, I found that information on Ancestry and need to go back and spend a lot more time looking on Ancestry to find out about the actual marriage and if it names Rebecca's father.
With a name like Hartley Wool, I am thinking her family background could be complicated too.
I will try to search for a lot more information about her, her parents, where she was born, when and where she died and who was living with her.
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Rebecca looks easier hopefully ;) The sister she was living with in 1881 was Elizabeth born 1851 in Norfolk
Come back if you are stuck
Kay
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Does it list her father??
I haven't yet had chance to go back to the library to look at Ancestry, but I did find Rebecca's parents names. Rebecca Hartley Wool, born 1854, parents William Hartley Wool and Elizabeth Hanby.
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That agrees with the family I found - I think this is them in 1861 living in Lewisham.
William H Wool 36 b Hammersmith Tailor
Elizabeth Wool 32
Elizabeth Wool 10 b Lyme? Norfolk
Rebecca Wool 7 b Lewisham
Rosanna Wool 4 b Lewisham
Have you tried using Family Search https://familysearch.org/search if you don't have access to Ancestry at the moment?? Edit -It's free
Kay
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I am so curious about the personality of Rebecca Hartley Wool, and who these two men were, Samuel Alexander Park, Beatrice's stepfather, and Thomas Wilson, Beatrice's biological father.
I found this on the family search website (from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints).
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DJW-T5R
It is the marriage of Samuel Alexander Park to Rebecca Hartley Wool in Apr-May-June 1884, registration district Islington, county London, volume 1B, page 612. Witnessed by Mary Ann Blankey and Robert Murray Hunter.
I clicked Samuel's name for further information about him on this site, and the same man's birth registration Apr-May-June 1851 Greenwich, London, volume 5, page 273, line number 2.
It does look as though this is the same Samuel Park as you mentioned who passed all those seaman's masters certificates, first as second mate and then as first mate.
Rebecca was born in 1854, so she was 30 at the time of the marriage to Samuel in 1884, and he was 33.
Rebecca is listed as a widow in the 1891 census (where her age is given as 32, which seems wrong as she would have been 37). So Samuel Alexander Park would have died some time between 1884 and 1891, but I can't find any reference to a death certificate, though I haven't found a death certificate reference for Rebecca either.
Samuel Alexander Dalton Park was born In Greenwich, Kent, England in 1851 to father George Park, born 1812 in Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland, who died 10th March 1891, Plymouth, Devon. And his mother was Sarah Armstrong, born 1811, Coldstream, Scotland, died 1882, Plymouth, Devon.
On the 1861 census for Samuel, he is shown as aged 10, and his mother Mrs Sarah Park age 45, born Coldstream, Scotland. She is listed as head of family, husband away. It is a handwritten document so I struggled to read the husband's occupation, but I think it said engineer. Address given as Lower Maryon Road, Woodland House.
With the Plymouth connection, I am guessing that this Scottish couple moved to Greenwich, where Samuel was born, with the husband's seafaring job.
I felt so sad to think that this wonderful man, Samuel, who worked hard for those seaman's certificates and took on a struggling single woman with two children, giving them his name, just died so soon after qualifying as a first mate.
There seems to be something strange and maybe vulnerable about Rebecca. I did manage to look at the tree you gave me the url to, and Vivien's comments that no father is given on Beatrice's birth certificate, but Rebecca gives her name as Thomasina Wilson. Rebecca seems to have given a wrong age on at least two censuses, and as Samuel's widow is calling herself Clara.
I have pages and pages of notes, and need to think carefully about the information as it has red herrings.
I think the only information I don't already have that would be on Samuel and Rebecca's 1884 marriage certificate would be his father's name and occupation. Which would give the correct Samuel Park.
But the elusive Thomas Wilson is altogether more difficult, and it looks as though people on the Ancestry site have made best guesses as to what was going on.
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Somebody, a Canterbury expert, very kindly gave me some information about the marriage of Harry Rolls to Beatrice Elizabeth Park on November 18th 1897 in the parish church of St. Stephens, Hackington, Canterbury, Kent, by the vicar Rev. Frederick Harrison Hichens MA.
Beatrice, aged 21, was living in the parish of St Stephens at the time. Harry, aged 24, was a Corporal in the Royal Scots Greys, 2nd Dragoons, who were based in Edinburgh at the time, and Harry himself was also based in Edinburgh at the time of the marriage. He was signed up for the army on 24th October 1892 for a 12 year term, aged 19 years and 8 months. He was an ironworker, like his father Benjamin, born in Bradley, Staffordshire.
I do remember somebody saying Harry was in India in the army, and I read that at one time, but obviously not at the time of the marriage as they were based in Edinburgh, the Royal Scots Greys were in Canterbury for something to do with India.
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The other information she gave me was that on the 1891 census, living at 45 Baxter Road, Islington, London, were Clara Park, head, widow age 32, born Lewisham. Herbert W Park, son, single, age 15, Provision merchant's assistant, Bloomsbury, London. Beatrice E Park, daughter, single, age 14, born Chelsea. And Harry Thompson, boarder, single, age 24, warehouse clerk, born Canterbury.
So it looks as if the Canterbury connection is Harry Thompson, and maybe the reason Beatrice was living in Canterbury age 21.
(Rebecca was born in 1854, so she was 37, not 32). (And why is she suddenly calling herself Clara?)
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Goodness knows why Rebecca is listed as Clara in 1891, but I can't see another explanation. Clara might have a nickname :-\ Great having such an interesting family :)
Harry Rolls military record is on FindMyPast and it lists him as serving in South Africa from 1899 - 1902
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I am so curious about the personality of Rebecca Hartley Wool, and who these two men were, Samuel Alexander Park, Beatrice's stepfather, and Thomas Wilson, Beatrice's biological father.
I found this on the family search website (from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints).
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DJW-T5R
It is the marriage of Samuel Alexander Park to Rebecca Hartley Wool in Apr-May-June 1884, registration district Islington, county London, volume 1B, page 612. Witnessed by Mary Ann Blankey and Robert Murray Hunter.
I clicked Samuel's name for further information about him on this site, and the same man's birth registration Apr-May-June 1851 Greenwich, London, volume 5, page 273, line number 2.
It does look as though this is the same Samuel Park as you mentioned who passed all those seaman's masters certificates, first as second mate and then as first mate.
Rebecca was born in 1854, so she was 30 at the time of the marriage to Samuel in 1884, and he was 33.
Rebecca is listed as a widow in the 1891 census (where her age is given as 32, which seems wrong as she would have been 37). So Samuel Alexander Park would have died some time between 1884 and 1891, but I can't find any reference to a death certificate, though I haven't found a death certificate reference for Rebecca either.
The other couple listed here aren't witnesses at the wedding of Samuel and Rebecca in 1884 they were the other couple who got married with the same marriage reference number
Samuel Park might not have died by 1891 although Clara/Rebecca lists herself as a widow! There is a potential Samuel in 1911 who lists himself as a Naval Pensioner :-\
There is a possible death for Rebecca H Thompson - age 68 June Qtr 1923 Islington Volume 1b Page 285
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Rebecca seems to have been happy with Harry Thompson for the rest of her life, they are together on the 1911 census, Rebecca Thompson age 57, Harry Thompson age 44, and Herbert Park age 34. Living at 62 St Pauls Road,, Canonbury, Highbury. I think it is her who died June 1923, Islington, age 68, and Harry Thomson, born 1867, died aged 59, Islington, March 1926.
Rebecca's mother Elizabeth died in 1875, when Rebecca was 21. A year before Beatrice was born. William Wool remarried and in the 1881 census, age 54, has a new wife Lydia age 33, and two small children.
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I found something that made me wonder, probably somebody else completely, but there is a Rebecca Park, age 25 in 1879, on the patient admissions register for the London Bethlem hospital. She seems to have had a brief stay. I found that on the Find My Past website using the library's subscription. I don't know where I would find any more information.
If it is her, considering that she didn't marry Samuel Park until 1884, age 30, this would be evidence that Samuel Park was the biological father of the children, that she was already using his name.
Maybe, maybe not.
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I checked the record and I don't think she is the right Rebecca.
On her admission and case notes she is actually 45 with last address Hove near Brighton. Her husband was Owen Park - listed with the same address. Her case notes state she had one child aged 22 Walter Thomas Park and she sounds extremely disturbed so I am relieved she is not the right Rebecca.
Kay
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word of warning when searching the Scottish records- especially the Scottish Borders
because of the traditions of name children it is very common for brothers to name their eldest 4 children the same and they could well be born around the same time - including using the same middle name - so check the records carefully - a niece/nephew could be visiting an uncle on the day of the census
this can also happen when dealing with family name over two generations, etc, for example I have two Andrew Aitken's marrying a Helen (Nelly) Waldie - the two Andrew's are cousins and the two Helen's are Aunt & Niece, so they are a generation apart, so you have to check carefully
good idea to use maths for the women, if they have offspring.