RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: smudwhisk on Thursday 26 November 15 20:30 GMT (UK)
-
Would any of my fellow Rootschatters possibly be able to help please regarding any possibly newspaper announcements about the death of Sarah Cole on 27 August 1957 at Chippenham Park, Deniliquin and subsequent inquest into her death on 10 September at the Deniliquin Court House?
According to Sarah's death certificate she drowned but unfortunately its a little too late for anything to appear on Trove. I'm interested in any reports which might confirm the full name of her son George Campbell (or for that matter a middle initial and his wife's name) whose birth date on the death certificate is out by a couple of years (editing for clarity) and is already deceased having died in 1972. Doesn't help that Campbell is a bit of a common surname. That said, if Sarah is who it is believed she is, then rather than being 74 years old according to her death certificate, she was actually about 82. :-\ Her second husband was some years younger than her which may explain some of the error.
In case anyone thinks of looking, yes there are a couple of ancestry Public Trees listing her but there are errors on them, some caused, assuming I'm correct about her identity, by a few little fibs she told when she remarried in 1924. :-X I've not seen a copy of her 1924 marriage certificate but the ancestry tree of her great granddaughter suggests she told a few little fibs on it regarding both her age and her parentage. I'm a little reluctant to contact any of the tree owners because I know from another researcher that it is a bit of a delicate subject with some of her descendants.
I've purchased quite a few BMD transcripts as it is relating to this sideline and don't really think anymore would conclusively help. Its a shame that there isn't anything yet on Trove which might.
Any help appreciated, I don't need any other information as have a lot of research on her. ;D
Thanks
Nicola
-
https://www.nla.gov.au/research-guides/newspapers/accessing-newspapers-in-the-library
Accessing newspapers from outside the Library
......
Can't visit the Library?
If you can't visit the Library in Canberra then you can use Trove to see if the item or newspaper is available at a library closer to you.
Another option is to request an item be delivered to your local library using interlibrary loan. Your local library will be able to tell you about this service. Read more on the related Newspapers guide, Copying newspapers.
Re the person you are naming as being listed on the 1957 death certificate as Sarah's offspring .... Can you please confirm that you know that person is no longer living. You are clearly identifying that person (by name and by confirming relationship to Sarah)....
It is a no no at RChat to name the living.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=368728.0
"Here on RootsChat we are very concerned that the privacy and security of the living is protected. For this reason we do not allow searches for living persons. Although we fully understand you would like recent information to add to your tree, or that you may wish to make contact with birth families, relatives you lost contact with when they immigrated to Australia, missing family or friends, we are afraid we are unable to assist you.
We are very sorry for the inconvenience this causes you but we are sure you will appreciate the reasons for this.
Please See:- http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,142443.0.html"
and
"If you are looking for living descendants, that is fine provided you do not provide details of these living persons. If you are providing details of someone we are likely to suspect may still be living, but you know is deceased, please state this."
Cheers, JM
-
Thanks JM, but in the circumstances I don't really see the need for you quoting the full RC rule book on the subject of no living individuals since, as my profile shows, I've been a RCer for over 11 years with in excess of 2.5k posts (which I know for some isn't that great a number but still quite a lot) so its not unreasonable to assume that I would have known about the no living person rule.
A simple question would suffice and only throw the book at me if I had errored. ::) All I'm guilty of is not explicitly mentioning the fact the person concerned was born in 1904 and yes they are deceased. If you'd like to check, the NSW BMD reference for his death is 62697/1972.
Unfortunately, as I live in the UK, something that shows on my profile, inter-library loans isn't an option. I was hopeing perhaps someone might perhaps have easy access to more recent newspaper reports, something that we do have some access to occasionally online in the UK through local libraries.
-
I suggest you contact
http://members.bordernet.com.au/denifhg/index.html
I've looked in my Deniliquin resources - Sarah does not have a headstone if she is buried at Deniliquin.
Many local libraries do not hold archived newspapers.
Cando
-
death of Sarah Cole on 27 August 1957 at Chippenham Park, Deniliquin
Her address on the electoral roll is Chippenham Park Road, Deniliquin.
http://www.whereis.com/nsw/deniliquin-2710/chippenham-park-rd
Cando
-
Hi there,
I am surprised by your words in your post, but perhaps you had not realised I was not quoting from any RChat rule book, as I was actually quoting from the stickied thread on this board. In particular,
"If you are looking for living descendants, that is fine provided you do not provide details of these living persons. If you are providing details of someone we are likely to suspect may still be living, but you know is deceased, please state this."
I am sorry you seem to have found my post confronting, as that was not its intention.
Add, in my own family tree, I do have CAMPBELL as a surname.
Cheers, JM
-
I am sorry you seem to have found my post confronting, as that was not its intention.
Cheers, JM
Thanks JM, sorry may have over reacted a little but I gather there is a RC rule book as it has been figuratively thrown at some newbies recently after the UK TV programme that featured some RCers who had helped an adoptive person find their relatives. I didn't see the programme but I gather it gave the impression to some that RC would find living relatives for them and they had to have the no living rule drawn to their attention. :-\
That said, if a poster has been a member for some time with reasonable post count, it may be better to just ask the question initially so as not to give them the wrong impression. ;D
-
death of Sarah Cole on 27 August 1957 at Chippenham Park, Deniliquin
Her address on the electoral roll is Chippenham Park Road, Deniliquin.
http://www.whereis.com/nsw/deniliquin-2710/chippenham-park-rd
Cando
Thanks Cando, yes she did live at Chippenham Park Road according to her death certificate but the cert says she drowned in Chippenham Park.
I suggest you contact
http://members.bordernet.com.au/denifhg/index.html
I've looked in my Deniliquin resources - Sarah does not have a headstone if she is buried at Deniliquin.
Many local libraries do not hold archived newspapers.
Cando
No I've noticed via an online resource that she doesn't appear to have a headstone, albeit I think her second husband who would appear to have died in 1989 does have one.
Thanks for the heads up about libraries not holding archived newspapers, I may have to wait and keep my fingers crossed that Trove add some later ones in due course.
-
Is this your line?
NSW Birth: 35390/1904 George C. CAMPBELL; Father-Robert; Mother-Sarah M. ; Paddington
death: 13/07/1972 #62697/1972 George Charles H. CAMPBELL; Father-Robert; Mother-Sarah; Deniliquin
Marriage: 3961/1926 George CAMPBELL and Vera M. TULIP; Deniliquin
Death: 30/12/1971 #40817/1972 Vera Mary CAMPBELL; Father-Henry; Mother-Susan; Deniliquin
Probate packet (may contain valuable information)
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/Entity.aspx?Path=\Item\1450847
Rootschatters who visit the archives and may be able to kindly assist.
-
...... I'm interested in any reports which might confirm the full name of her son George Campbell (or for that matter a middle initial and his wife's name) whose birth date on the death certificate is out by a couple of years (editing for clarity) and is already deceased having died in 1972.
If you were to obtain an official transcription of the NSW BDM death registration you would likely learn the name of his wife and the other vital family history information you seek about him, and his parents.
Official transcriptions are not as expensive as NSW BDM certificates.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx#transcription
Google news archives includes some Australian newspapers https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC
Cheers, JM
-
Yes cupoflife, that is the person I'm interested in, although I'm trying to confirm if Sarah Cole was his mother.
I've being a little conservative (with a small C ;D) with what I post because there is a bit of a delicate issue if Sarah Cole was his mother and, as these posts appear in a google search, I don't want to possibly upset any of her descendants by posting his parent's dirty laundry in public so to speak. Hence the narrow request looking for an obituary or newspaper announcement of her death which I gather may not be easy to come by.
Thanks JM, I've purchased several NSW transcripts recently because of the lower cost. ;D I'll have a look at google to see if they have anything on the area that may help.
Edit - purchasing George's death or marriage certificate may not definitely confirm he was Sarah's son unless his brother was a witness. Having purchased several recently I'm a little skint at the moment to get anymore but may in the future.
-
:) Better still, perhaps you could consider seeking his birth cert .... perhaps information would be first hand from his mum as informant?
Cheers, JM
-
I'm happy to photograph the probate packet for you (found by cupoflife) - it may contain his death cert. Just shout if you see any other probates or divorces ...
regards
Ros
adding : planning to go next week
-
No I've noticed via an online resource that she doesn't appear to have a headstone, albeit I think her second husband who would appear to have died in 1989 does have one.
Nothing like local knowledge. I would suggest you contact the genealogy group. Not everything is or will ever be online. One of their old members may even remember the event. Not a large town . Her death and events surrounding it may not have been published in the local newspaper.
There is an MI for a Robert Henry COLE at the Deniliquin Lawn Cemetery. The genealogy group hold the burial records for the cemeteries and I have always found my contact to be extremely helpful.
Cheers
Cando
-
Thanks Ros, I don't think it would help identify Sarah Cole as his mother but appreciate the thought. You did photograph some for me last year and I keep trying to get round to sorting out a few more to see if you had any free time to do them, just not got round to it yet. ;D
Thanks Cando, I think I picked up their website when I was googling earlier, hence the comment about RHC having a gravestone.
I've actually, literally, just been given a contact email address for someone (via a different route to RC) who has been writing a "story" about the family concerned so I shall see if she is prepared to confirm things for me. She may even be a distant relative, I definitely know a lot about the family prior to the siblings' emigration to Australia.
-
WW2 service summary for George Charles CAMPBELL which includes his date of birth which may or may not be accurate as there is no birth registered in the district of Deniliquin in 1905/6.
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=428198
cando
-
Umm, interesting Cando, that's the exact day and month, but for 1904 from NSW BDM :) registered Paddington NSW.
You can deduce the date of birth from the new option now at NSW BDM online.
Cheers, JM
-
Yes the George Campbell who died in 1972 was the one born in 1904 in Paddington, and in fact the National Archives of Australia WW2 Attestation catalogue entry also has an additional entry for him with a birth year of 1902. :-X
This family did like to confuse things for people trying to research them.
:) Better still, perhaps you could consider seeking his birth cert .... perhaps information would be first hand from his mum as informant?
Cheers, JM
A contact has already given me details of his birth cert, the question is whether he is the George mentioned on Sarah Cole's death certificate. I think he probably is but, being a bit of a stickler for accuracy, I'd like to confirm it beyond any doubt before adding her death to my tree because Sarah wasn't her birth name and appears to have been a name she adopted after her first marriage. But that's a long story ...
-
Three files on NAA and you are viewing summaries of transcribed records.
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx
Doesn't appear that any researchers have purchased the files as they are usually digitised after purchase if the enlistee is deceased.
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/
Born 23 Sep 1905 Sydney
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=317846
Born 23 Sep 1902 Sydney – [b it is possible the year of birth has been mistranscribed. Need to see his attestation papers[/b]
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=654902
Born 25 Sep 1905 Deniliquin
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=428198
Cando
-
That said, if Sarah is who it is believed she is, then rather than being 74 years old according to her death certificate, she was actually about 82
Something not right here with your thoughts of Sarah being 82 years old in 1957 ie born c1875. She would have been c52 years of age in 1927 when giving birth to Betty.
What was Sarah's age on this marriage certificate?
Marriage
8139/1924
COLE Robert
CAMPBELL Sarah
At Hay
Death
6800/1928
COLE Betty
Father Robert Mother Sarah
At Hay
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article140678687
Riverina Grazier 25 May 1928
Deaths.
COLE. — On the 20th inst. at the Hay Hospital, Betty, dearly beloved daughter of Robert and Sarah Cole, age seven months.
Betty COLE was buried on 28 May 1928 at the Hay Cemetery, Church of England Section, Row R, Lot 37.
Comment - Baby. Unmarked grave.
Australian Electoral Roll
1930
COLE Robert Henry Moore Street Hay Labourer
COLE Sarah Moore Street Hay HD
1932
COLE Robert Henry Lachlan Street, Hay. Labourer
COLE Sarah Lachlan Street Hay HD
Cando
-
Deleted - can't read proper :-[
-
Hi Cando, yes this is why I'm trying to find some conclusive proof that the Sarah Cole who died in Deniliquin in 1957 is the mother of George Charles Campbell born 1904 in Paddington because his mother was definitely born in 1875, albeit not as Sarah. The 1904 George Charles' birthdate ties in, albeit with a different year, with the details on the WW2 Attestations.
Sarah Cole's death cert from 1957 lists her as only having one child with Robert Henry Cole, a daughter born 1932. An ancestry tree belonging to the granddaughter of her son born in 1909, has a comment that the daughter was adopted by the couple. The death certificate doesn't list a daughter as being deceased, I would have thought if it was the same Robert and Sarah Cole that her husband would have listed a deceased child but anything is possible. That said, they do appear to be the only Robert and Sarah Cole in Hay.
I don't have the 1924 Marriage Cert, but the details on the ancestry tree list Sarah as born 1889 (her husband I think was born 1902) and her parents as Harry Campbell and Mary Little. I'm assuming she was probably listed as a widow but it would appear the parent's names from the tree were included on the marriage certificate as they are not on the death certificate, other than it listing her father's surname as Campbell. Mind you her death certificate states she was 35 years old when she married Robert Henry Cole, which would appear to be where the tree owner has got the 1889 birth year from, albeit that her age is listed as 74 which suggests a birth year of 1883. Obviously, 1883 would have just been young enough to have had a child in 1928.
As you can see, its a bit of a mess. I think I should email this new contact that apparently knows a lot about her after 1904 and see whether she can confirm when she died and whether the Sarah Cole who died in Deniliquin is the correct death. :-X
-
Just a thought regarding Betty Cole who died in 1928, I wonder whether she could have been adopted because her death would obviously have been registered as Cole? The information on the ancestry tree states that Robert Henry and Sarah Cole did adopt a child in 1932, so I suppose its possible they'd adopted one earlier. Unfortunately, without the 1928 births being available as yet, its difficult to know. I accept there doesn't appear to be another Robert and Sarah Cole in the area or another marriage.
-
Formal adoption was introduced by legislation in 1923 in NSW. A good summary
http://www.sag.org.au/helping-you/research-guides.html?task=view&id=25
The 1904 George Charles' birthdate ties in, albeit with a different year, with the details on the WW2 Attestations.
You need to view the original attestion papers not transcribed records.
Sarah Cole's death cert from 1957 lists her as only having one child with Robert Henry Cole, a daughter born 1932.
I am assuming that Robt H was the informant on that 1957 death cert. Even so it depends on how the funeral director posed the question about issue of their marriage. I would never take as true any information on a death certificate
An ancestry tree belonging to the granddaughter of her son born in 1909, has a comment that the daughter was adopted by the couple.
I'm lost here...what son?
I don't usually bother with online trees unless they are well sourced and referenced but this information about George Charles CAMPBELL's birth indicates that the compiler has at least sighted the certificate to have the ages and places of birth of the parents.
From NSW Birth index inserting the date
Birth - 23 Sep 1904
35390/1904
CAMPBELL George C
Father Robert W H Mother Sarah M
District Paddington
These are noted as George's parents.
CAMPBELL Robert Wallace Hugh Born Inverell NSW 1866 and died Armidale 29 Jul 1955
HYATT Sarah Maria born Turalla NSW 1870-
I can't see the sensitivity issue at all. Many families have a few skeletons in the cupboard. Glory be ....I usually respond with don't do your family history if you aren't prepared for a few unpleasantries along the way.
Cheers
Cando
-
I can't see the sensitivity issue at all. Many families have a few skeletons in the cupboard. Glory be ....I usually respond with don't do your family history if you aren't prepared for a few unpleasantries along the way.
Cheers
Cando
I agree with your comments about skeletons in the cupboard, and in any case you tend to be able to find out more about the individuals if there are. That said, there is a lot more to this family than I've posted and I do have my reasons for not posting them.
-
Well smudwhisk I'll have to leave you to it....I can't assist any further without details from some certificates, even if you think they are incorrect. The devil is always in the detail. ;D
Good luck :)
Cando
-
It is after 1:30 in the afternoon here in NSW, so likely it is at least 2:30 in the morning for smudwhisk
I have given my 1903 NSW Electoral Roll a good thrashing, but cannot find Sarah M CAMPBELL anywhere at either of the electorates THE RIVERINA or WENTWORTH. Wentworth includes the Paddington (aka Glenmore) district of Sydney.
Cheers, JM
-
Hi Smudwhisk
You should contact the Deniliquin Genealogy Group. There have been other queries so they already have quite a lot of information.
It the Pastoral Times there are articles regarding Sarah Coles drowning.
I will send you a PM.
-
Just from the NSW BDM online Index (so I have no thoughts as to if this these two births are for same Sarah)
Sarah M and Robert W U parents of a baby boy (Robert W U) born 1896, registered Inverell # 31323.
Sarah M and Robert parents of a baby boy (Walter) born 1899, registered Glen Innes #20935
Red Post .... Well found Denipam.
Cheers, JM
-
Thanks majm.
I am a member of the local group here in Deniliquin but I am still learning what resources we have so that's why I have suggested that smudwhisk should contact the group.
-
At the Gurya Shire Cemetery
Robert Wallace Hugh CAMPBELL born 19 December 1916, died 7 Nov 2004, N297829 Pte 35 Bn,
http://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=9760468
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?ServiceId=A&VeteranId=354566
Ryerson Index has Vida Mary Leith CAMPBELL at Westmead Hospital, formerly of Guyra at age 94, 12 Sept 2011 funeral notice. Armidale Express 14 Sept 2011.
http://www.ryersonindex.org/
NSW BDM restricts access for first thirty years for death registrations, first 50 years for marriage registrations and first 100 years for birth registrations.
I speculate there's a likely connection between the Robert Wallace Hugh born 1916 Glen Innes and the Robert Wallace Hugh born 1866, Inverell. :)
Cheers, JM
-
Newspaper article Pastoral Times 3 Sep 1957
-
Thanks Denipam, much appreciated. ;D
-
Ok I am a little confused after reading the article. It seems straight forward until the daughter in Bendigo is mentioned. I thought it was established that her only daughter died. Or am I truly confused and read the whole thread wrong? ( very possible) :)
Sarah Cole's death cert from 1957 lists her as only having one child with Robert Henry Cole, a daughter born 1932
ahh but then who died in 1928 and how old was Sarah supposedly in 1932 ???
-
Don't worry David, the thread will be a bit confusing because of my reluctance to post all the confirmed information I have on the family out of deference to the wishes of some of the descendants regarding some aspects of it. ;)
That said, I'm greatful to JM, Cando, Demipam and everyone else who posted on here for their help and also helping me to manage to confirm that Sarah Cole and Maria Hyatt are one and the same. Its a bit of a long story. ;) Demipam found a second article which confirms that Robert Cole was aware of his wife's true age and confirms the age on her death certificate was incorrect. Robert and Sarah/Maria do appear to have adopted two daughters because she was far too old to have been the mother of either.
I have also had a reply from a new contact, from outside RC, who has confirmed that George Charles Campbell's death certificate helps confirm he was the George Campbell mentioned on Sarah Cole's death certificate because a nephew, one of his younger half brother's sons, was the informant even though George had a number of his own children.
Thanks to all.
Nicola
-
Hi all,
I'm wondering if any of you will be willing to share some information with me about Sarah/Maria please?
I can tell you that George Charles Campbell did have 7 girls and 1 of them daughters is my late grandmother.
-
Hi Amanda and welcome to Rootschat.
If you want to post any queries on RC, I'm happy to see if I can help. Otherwise, if you post one more time, even if its just a smiley face or something, the Private Messaging feature will become active and I can send you a PM with my email address. I'm happy to share some information with you. I've been researching the Hyatt family for some years.
Maria/Sarah Hyatt was my 2xGreat Grandmother's niece.
Nicola
-
Hi, Nicola
Thank you Maria/Sarah Hyatt was my late grandmothers grandmother as her son George Charles Campbell was my nan's dad
-
Hi Amanda
I've sent you a private message which you should be able to access as I'm sure Rootschat dropped the number of required posts to two the other year to activate the private messaging facility. If you can't, you may just need to post one more time.
Nicola
-
Hi
I have quite a lot of info on Sarah and her children to 3 partners and her death etc. If anyone needs anything specific please let me know.
-
Hi,
Sarah /Maria Cole is my late grandmother's nan any information would be greatly appreciated
-
Hi Amanda
What do you know already? It is a bit sensitive but I have 11 children and 3 husbands?
Julie
-
Hi Julie,
If you want to discuss Sarah and her children in private my email address is (*)
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
Hi all, i think i am the great grand daughter your talking about and would love for you guys to contact me, im learning aswell and only have what i have. lol . i do have other information but can not say as as people have said its sensitive. not sure how to use this web site so hopefully u know how to get to me. thanks kimmy :D
-
Welcome to Rootschat, Kimmy.
You need to make 3 posts and then you can contact members via the private message system.
Jamjar
-
i have seen the posts and would be interested in talking to bangerso, amanda adnum and nicola if thats possible.
-
im after percival francis campbells information ;D awell as sarahs xx ;D
-
Hi
I have info that takes Sarah from leaving Robert with their younger children and going to Benevolent Society where George was born and her life after that to she died as a Cole. I am also a great grandchild. Please pm if you want more info. I am also interested in if anyone has done their DNA to try and unravel this story
-
To send a personal message to individual members, you click on what looks like a SIM card that can be found under their names.
They should then receive an email letting them know that they have received a message.
Jamjar
-
Hi Kimmy,
Welcome to rootschat :)
Here is WW2 service record for Percival Francis CAMPBELL https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6113010
And a fine for selling wool without a licence http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article134605536
Ros
-
thankyou