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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Herefordshire => Topic started by: Girl Guide on Saturday 12 December 15 00:36 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone have a Florence Emily LLOYD or possibly Emily LLOYD in their family tree? She would have been born around 1874 and in the 1911 census she gives her place of birth as Colwall, Herefordshire.
She is living with my great grandfather James ENGLAND as his wife with their daughter Lilian Olga Violet ENGLAND. Their address in 1911 is 286 Holloway Road, London.
One snag - James was already married to my great grandmother Clara (Carrie) Ann KNOWLING. He married Carrie Ann in 1886. Carrie Ann died in 1918 and James died in 1920. In theory James could have married Florence in the two years between his legal wife's death and his own in 1920, but I've never found any record of a marriage between them.
In the 1939 Register I found what I think is probably Florence as a patient in the North Middlesex County Hospital. It gives her date of birth as 28 November 1875 and she is stated as being widowed which would be correct. I also found what I suspect is her death registered in SQ 1944 Willesden 3A 359 - the certificate is still to be obtained.
I am trying to link her to her birth family but struggling to do this. I found an Emily LLOYD in the 1881 census living at 2 Pullens Row, Colwell with a birth year of 1873 and birthplace of Burghill. Not sure if this is the correct family. Cannot seem to find her in either 1891 or 1901 as either Emily or Florence Emily.
Does anyone have any ideas?
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Have you given any thought to Emily/Florence being married before; Lloyd being her married name?
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Well now I must admit I hadn't thought of that possibility. James refers to her as Miss in his will, but just because he does so doesn't exclude the possibility of a previous marriage for Florence. She may well have been economical with the truth when she met him.
I've no idea how or when they met.
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I have now obtained the death certificate and it was James England's 'wife'. She died at Twyford Lodge, Willesden. The informant was not her daughter but someone called H. C. DRAPER of 2 Northfields Road, Acton. This person caused the body to be buried.
Any suggestions as to where she might have been buried? The registration district was Willesden, sub-district Harlesden. Also what was Twyford Lodge?
Don't quite know why the daughter was not involved in this as daughter did not die until 1959, death registered in Blackpool.
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A thread from another site may be use re Twyford Lodge https://www.british-genealogy.com/archive/index.php/t-3408.html
Kay
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Hi Kay
Thank you for that link, most informative.
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Lillian Olga Violets birth cert would give you the maiden name of Florence (assuming she is the mother)
Birth
Jan/Feb/Mar 1909
Wandsworth
Ref 1d 616
Lilian Olga V England
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I already have Lilian's birth cert. Mother is listed as Florence Emily ENGLAND formerly LLOYD.
As I said in an earlier post, James & Florence were never married as James was already married to my great grandmother Carrie Ann.
Even though James' legal wife died in 1918 they don't appear to have taken the opportunity to legalise their relationship. James died two years later in 1920.
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There's an Emily Lloyd in Colwall in the 1881 census. Aged 8, born Burghill, with mother Elizabeth Lloyd, married, 44, innkeeper born Westhide, various siblings, and grandmother Mary Hill 69 born Burghill.
At that time Burghill is in Hereford RD and Colwall is in Ledbury RD.
Possible births per FreeBMD:
Q/e Mar 1871
Lloyd Emily Ledbury 6a 485
Q/e Mar 1873
Lloyd Emily Hereford 6a 514
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Possible early childbearing for Emily?
Evelyn Dorothy Lloyd bap Colwall 04.11.93: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NBXN-ZD3
Free index suggests that by 1911 she might (as Dorothy Lloyd, 16) be in the Hornsey area - close to where you have found James England's household in Holloway Rd:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW4V-4S3
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I found an Emily LLOYD in the 1881 census living at 2 Pullens Row, Colwell with a birth year of 1873 and birthplace of Burghill. Not sure if this is the correct family
Sorry GG - on re-reading your original post I see I've been telling you things you already know!
In 1891 there's a 19 year old Emily Lloyd, dressmaker, born Burghill, lodging with a Cairns family in Hill View Terrace, Colwall
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Ah thanks Shaun, I've been struggling to find Emily in later census records.
I don't know if this is a completely different Emily or mine who at whatever point acquired the first name of Florence.
I cannot seem to find any birth registered for a Florence Emily around the 1875 date. Interestingly the Evelyn that AVM popped up with doesn't want to appear on the GRO index either.
I've written today to Hereford Council to ask which register office would have covered the Ledbury registration district. There is a chance that the births were registered locally but missed getting on the main GRO index.
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Well it seems that neither Hereford nor Worcester have any relevant birth records for Florence and Evelyn.
All we have so far is a baptism record for Evelyn which avm found on family search. I did come across Evelyn's baptism again on a different website and the only extra piece of info was that mum Emily was resident at Great Malvern.
So somewhat stuck at the moment. Florence must have come from somewhere, but where is the problem! Aaagh, the joys of family history!!
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Hi, Lilian Violet Olga England was my Grandmother. I would love to hear what you found out. X
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Hello Gilly, Welcome to Rootschat
I must confess that I was gobsmacked to see your post!
Can I just check that your Lilian married a William Richard Ladds? I have a marriage certificate for 12 April 1941 in Birmingham.
Her death was in 1959 registered in the district of Blackpool.
I couldn't find any children registered from this marriage so adopted??
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Hello. So glad you replied!
She was my mums maternal mother and my mum was adopted in Birmingham as well as her sister who we never found. They both had their names changed but I believe my mum was called Elizabeth England and her sister Margaret.
Mum did not know she was adopted until she was 21 and was called Barbara Ann Robinson. (Still living btw and surname Harvie now.
By the time mum decided to trace her she was already passed away and we have Blackpool as the final resting place. With such a beautiful long name, it is definitely the same lady.
We dont know why the girls were adopted or who their dad was.
I would love to find mums sister/my aunty.
I guess we are related?! Lol x
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Mum born in march 1936
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Ok my error...mum was called Margaret England and her sister was called Veronica born in 1930.
I have dug out the info I found with some help years ago:
Lilian Olga Violet England born 1909 in Wandsworth
Married William R Ladds in 1941 in Birmingham
and Died as Lilian O V Ladds in 1959 aged 50
I must say I did find it strange that if she married Leslie Rogers in 1928 (in Camberwell) why she would go on to have Veronica (possibly June M) and Margaret in Birmingham and not give them their father's name ? That didn't gell with me.
All three were given the name "England" with the Mother's maiden name "England" - which may have meant that she was in a relationship, but not married ? or she may have had them by different fathers (not unheard of - my sister had 3 children by three different fathers)
I found them on the 1911 census which I emailed and I think I also discovered that Lilian's father (who was 46 years old when she was born) had been married before to a Clara Ann, I found them on the 1901 census living in Bristol they had a 13 year old son Sidney James England, living with his 74 year old mother Elizabeth.
It looks like Clara Ann and James married in Brentford in 1886 and I think she may have died in the July/Aug/Sept quarter of 1907 aged 43 in Warwickshire. He then appears to have had a relationship with Florence Emily and had your grandmother Lilian Olga Violet England in the same year (although I cannot find a marriage !)
James England appears to have had quite a good job and I think he may have travelled all over, relocating to different areas to do that job ! hence the different areas of the country
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Ah my guess about adoption was correct then.
I'm afraid I won't know anything about the adoption as I wasn't aware that Lilian had adopted your mother.
I'm slightly confused as to what your mother's name was - Did Lilian call her Elizabeth England or was that her birth name?
After your grandmother died were there any family papers of any interest found?
As the GRO now have mother's maiden names for births between 1837 and 1917, I may have another go at trying to locate Florence's family.
If there is anything else you would like to know do ask and if I have the information I can pass it on to you.
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My mum was born Margaret England and Lilian was her birth mother. Lilian put my mum up for adoption as she did with her sister Verinica. She may have had another daughter too called June.
So James England was my biological Great Grandad as he was yours if I read that right?
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Seems our posts crossed as it were.
Let's get a few things clarified. James England married Clara Ann (known as Carrie Ann) on 25th April 1886. I'm descended from their son Sidney and as you rightly surmise James was my great grandfather.
At some point after 1901 James met Florence Lloyd and they had Lilian. James and Florence never married as Clara did not die until 1918 and James died two years later in 1920. I have his will in which he left everything to Miss Florence Emily Lloyd.
The only birth I can find before Lilian's marriage to William Ladds is that of Margaret. Other England/England births in Birmingham are after her marriage in 1941. So I'm not sure where the other sisters come in unless she rapidly left William and had the other girls. However Lilian died as Ladds so not sure what to think there.
There was another Lilian O V England but her other names are Olive Vera born 1905 and this is the one who married Rogers in 1928.
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Gosh how interesting. Margaret is my mother.
I guess this means you are my second cousin! I check now and then to see if there is any information online and amazed to have found an actual living relative!
My mum (Margaret) searched the records in Kew and found the birth certificate and adoption records of Veronica England.. born 1930 and her elder sister.
I have just emailed the adoption letters department in Birmingham to see if there is any information they can give on Verinica. I will keep you posted.
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Do I assume that you have your mother's original birth certificate and that it states that Lilian is her mother?
I will await the results of your email to Birmingham with interest.
Added - I forgot to say that at the time of James' death he was the owner of a cycle shop at 102 High Street, North Finchley.
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I wonder whether the parents of either Lilian Olive Vera England (b 1905) or Lilian Olga Violet England (b 1909) chose their given names with a view to the initials LOVE 💕 ;)
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Yes avm I noticed that and wondered if that had been done deliberately or by accident.
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Gilly
When I obtained Florence's death certificate Lilian wasn't named as the informant and I wondered why. Possibly Lilian had discovered/realised her parents weren't married and therefore disowned her mother.
That's why I wondered if Lilian had had any family papers at all.
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Without a doubt!! 😍😍😍
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Gosh that is interesting about the papers. I guess so many things we wont find out. X
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Just a question, assuming your side remained in the family, do you have any old family photos that may have been passed down? Be lovely to see if there are any family resemblances!
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Yes I do have two that I can send to you via your email address. You will need to pm (private message) me as email addresses are not allowed on post. Click on the letter under your name to send me a message.
One photo is of James, his wife Carrie and their son Sidney. The other is of James' cycle shop that he owned in North Finchley.
I shall have to wait until my son gets home as the printer is set for scanning to his computer. Not being very technically minded I don't know how to set the printer to my computer.
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Gilly
I now have the photos scanned and ready to send to you. If you send me a pm with your email address I can send them to you.
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Still struggling to get a firm fix on Florence. The 1939 gives a birth date of 28th November 1875. She was a patient in the North Middlesex Hospital and said to be senile so I wonder just how accurate that date is, the year particularly.
For the 1911 Florence has an age of 37 and a birth year of 1874. As her birthday would have been in November that would give a birth year of 1873. Her place of birth is given as Colwall, Herefordshire.
James was born in February 1863 so was already 48 by the 1911.
What are the chances of Florence making out she was older than she actually was?
Will the 1921 census reveal anything? She will be a widow by then as James died in 1920.
I just cannot seem to find any birth registration for Florence either as Florence Emily or Emily Florence that would fit her stated place of birth in the 1911. Haven't been able to locate any likely looking baptism either.
This lady is causing me a load of frustration! >:( >:( ::)
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I wonder if I have found the connection point between Florence and James? I have found a 1901 census for a Florence Lloyd living in Bristol. She is employed as a domestic nurse.
Piece number 2365
Folio 11
Page 14
Registration District is Bristol
In 1901 James and his family are also in Bristol living in North Road. James has a cycle and pram shop at 17 Queens Road and Royal York Crescent where Florence is residing is not that far away. About 15 to 20 minutes walk away. Could she have visited his shop to buy a pram for her employers or collected one and thereby met James? ???
Need to try and trace this Florence in the births etc before jumping to conclusions though! ::)
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Hhmmph, well that's was the idea :D - however I still can't find anything to fit the Florence in the 1901 census.
I've beavered away and eliminated some possibles by finding them in the 1911 census. The Florence in the Bristol 1901 census seems to have come out of nowhere. No birth registration to be found that would fit the birth year given which was 1877 and county of birth - Herefordshire. ??? ???
I've decided to stick my neck out and get the birth cert of Emily Lloyd MQ 1873 Hereford just to see what her date of birth is. Just a pdf one as that is cheaper. I've found what I think is her in the 1891 census in Colwall as a dressmaker with the Cains family. Her place of birth is Burghill which is the same as in the 1881 census.
Piece number 2051, Folio 60, Page 9
Ho hum, the joys and frustrations of family history. ::) :o
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Well no point in following up the Emily Lloyd that I got the pdf for. Her birthday is 24th December 1872.
I just don't know where to go from here. I checked out all the possibles and have been left with two, one of whom was the above.
The only one left is the one I found in the 1901 living in Bristol which puts her in the same place as James, a 15 to 20 minutes walk away from his pram & cycle shop. However she seems to be totally untraceable. No birth registration in Herefordshire, can't find her before or after that 1901 census.
So what am I left to think? Gave a false birth date, birth place, a false name? Do I open the search country wide? ??? ???
I noticed that on the death certificate for James, she calls herself Emily. She is also Emily in the 1921 and 1923 electoral register at her address of 102 High Street, North Finchley. When we get to 1939 she has become Florence Emily.
What a nightmare this woman is being. :o :o
Any thoughts will be gratefully received.