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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Jamesharrislondonuk on Wednesday 30 December 15 12:42 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I'm researching the Chamberlain family in London, Middlesex and would welcome any information to point me in the right direction.
I've completed some research on the Chamberlain family and have started to put this online for anyone to look at in the spirit of free collaboration (www.ivyonline.co.uk).
It is difficult to prove the right connections particularly before 1837 and the 1841 census, although the Parish and military records have been helpful.
I have tracked this particular branch of the Chamberlain family back to Clifton upon Dunsmore, Warwickshire from the 1841 Census material. They appear to have migrated to London and went their separate ways for various reasons. My grandmother (nee Chamberlain) provided a great deal of information which I'm collating and will put up on www.ivyonline.co.uk in the new year or will share with anyone if they want to know beforehand...
I am particularly interested in:
Arthur John Chamberlain
Born 4th September 1857
He was in the Queens Own 7th Hussar's between during 1879 and 1881 whilst they were based in Ireland before being involved in the Boer War
He married Elizabeth Colbert and had 2 children: Annie and Horace Colbert Chamberlain
(http://www.ivyonline.co.uk/page91.html)
Elizabeth Colbert
Wife of Arthur John Chamberlain
Unable to find much information on Elizabeth - they possibly met/married whilst he was with the Queens 7th Hussar's in Ireland.
Horace Colbert Chamberlain
Born 1881 and died 1942
He saw action in the 1st World War
Annie Chamberlain
Based in Enfield for a while and married William Pimm.
She had a dress-making shop on Enfield high street and William Pimm made ceremonial military helmets - I was told that one style helmet (with the spike) was worn by the Kaiser in Germany.
She had 3 daughters one of whom emigrated to New Zealand or Australia.
I am very much interested in any information pertaining to the Chamberlain family genealogy and any related families - the more information the better
Any pointers or assistance would be greatly appreciated, and I am ready to collaborate/help too
Many thanks in advance
James :)
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Hi James,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Possible death record -
Arthur J Chamberlain
Birth Date - abt 1858
Date of Death 17 May 1918
Age at Death - 60
Registration district - Nottingham
Vol 7b Page 320
The probate record for Arthur John Chamberlain records his widow as Grace Annie Chamberlain (perhaps he remarried or equally the wrong person). Arthur's occupation is recorded as Chartered Accountant, as he was an accounts clerk in 1881 it could tie in with the above death.
JJ
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2nd Marriage of the above Arthur John Chamberlain-
Arthur John Chamberlain
Birth Date - abt 1858
Age - 37
Father's name - John Chamberlain
Spouse's Name - Grace Annie Cleaver
Spouse's Age - 24
Spouse's Father's Name - Francis Frederick Cleaver
Marriage Date - 31 Oct 1895
Marriage Place - Nottingham, Nottinghamshire
JJ
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Looking at your online tree (Anc***ry) showing the 1891 for Elizabeth Chamberlain it would appear that she was born in Isle of Wight, Hampshire, therefore this could be her birth -
Elizabeth Colbert
q1 1858 Isle of Wight, Hampshire
Vol 2b Page 476
JJ
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The Elizabeth Chamberlain on the 1891 census is shown as a widow and her son Horace "J", is shown as born in Kent - probably not the correct family?
There is a tree on A..ty which has Elizabeth born 1859 in Dublin - not checked that through as yet.
There is a death for a Elizabeth Chamberlain in 1894 age 37 (dob abt 1857) in Hendon, is this near enough to Edmonton to be a possible death?
Ray
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You have Horace Colbert Chamberlain born 1881, but he was in fact born 1884:
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Jun 1884 (>99%)
Chamberlain Horace Colbert Edmonton 3a 286
The Annie who married William Pimm was born 1881 in London, she did in fact marry Ernest William Pimm:
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1904
Chamberlain Annie Edmonton 3a 905
Pimm Ernest William Edmonton 3a 905
Living in Birmingham in 1911
William died 19 Nov 1918 in 28 Heathfield Road, Handsworth Birmingham and left Annie £241
Ray
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Two of Annies daughters were:
Ethel Marguerite born 1906, she was on the Midlands Electoral census in 1930, with sister
Cisse Elizabeth born 1909 in 1934 Cissie was living Haringey with a Annie Elizabeth Pimm (?)
There is a death for a Cissie Elizabeth Morgan in Swansea in 1975, Cissie E Pimm married a Emil Morgan in Edmonton in 1935.
I have found a birth for a May L Pimm born with a mother Chamberlain in 1913 in West Bromwich, not sure if this Annies daughter. Whilst there were only 2 Pimm/Chamberlain marriages between 1880 & 1920 the other one was in 1901 in Kings Norton (near Birmingham)!
However I have found a May L Pimm living in 57 Windmill Hill, Enfield in 1945 living with a Annie Pimm.
I followed this up and have found the death of a Annie Pimm in 1964 aged 84 and dying in Swansea (where daughter Cissie lived/died):
Deaths Dec 1964 (>99%)
PIMM ANNIE 84 SWANSEA 8B 645
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There is something unusual about the Horace Colbert Chamberlain information. I have not found Horace on the 1891, 1901 or 1911 census as yet.
I have found him living in Tower Hamlets in 1930 with a Jane Chamberlain. I can only find one marriage for a Horace Chamberlain to a Jane (Hagger) in 1915, but on the marriage certificate the father Arthur is shown as a Valet. Jane Hagger is also noted on the Horace Colbert Chamberlain WW1 papers.
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Hi Ray & JJ,
Thanks for the welcome and i'm so grateful for your input - massive thank you!
I'll need to correct a few typo's on my website regarding the Chamberlain family tree and update more of the information I have gathered in the past.
Ray thanks for the heads-up with the Horace Colbert Chamberlain birth date. I'm learning how to build websites as I go along and sometimes I miss the obvious errors :)
I thought it best to put down what Information I have in my notes from the past to accompany the very helpful details you provided regarding the Chamberlain family – It looks like the Chamberlain family history is becoming a little less of a mystery - so here goes.
My start point is an oral history provided by grandmother Ruth Harris (nee Chamberlain), daughter of Horace Colbert Chamberlain.
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Oral history – Summary of main points
- There was a family mystery over Horace Colbert Chamberlain's origins
- The 'general' family view was that he was born into a well-to-do family
- His father was in the Queens Hussar's and in early childhood they lived a military life.
- He was apparently born in the barracks in ‘Famoye’ Ireland
- At some point his father died (in the army) and his mother remarried someone in the military.
- Horace's step father was understood as being strict and brutal which led to Horace running away from home at the age of 16. Horace recalled having to always clean his step father’s riding boots.
- Apparently he used-up his inheritance before meeting Jane Hagger his future wife
- Horace married Jane Hagger in the East End, living close to a number of the wider Hagger family members
- Horace worked on the railways as Carman (my father, Horace’s grandson still has his railway whistle somewhere)
- Horace had moved from a well-to-do standard of living to a very poor life and it was apparently viewed not so well with the Chamberlain family
- My grandmother reported visiting the dressmakers shop in North London several times in her childhood to visit her Aunt Annie (assuming this is Annie Pimm nee Chamberlain) and vaguely remembered one of the sisters.
- Annie apparently was known as ‘Press’ by the children (the name could have been misunderstood by me when taking notes) and lived Brentwood.
- She remembered her Aunt as being quite austere and their home and shop being the height of luxury and a considerably higher standard of living than theirs.
- She recalled being told that Aunt Annie was well educated and attended a finishing school in Paris
- One recollection was the detail regarding the Ceremonial military Helmets designed and made by Ernest William Pimm Annie’s husband. He was apparently well known internationally for he’s products and produced those ‘spiked’ helmets worn by the Kaiser of Germany.
- Horace played a part in the 1st World War but he never mentioned a word or talked about it with his family.
- Horace was quite an austere but loving father and insisted on educating his children and instilling manners at all cost.
- There was a hierarchy of respect with Horace’s children with the eldest son having his own room in an already small house in the East End. The other children slept in the same bed
- Annie his sister was apparently quite upset at Horace’s funeral as she thought he should be placed in the family grave
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Facts i’ve gathered so far...
Arthur John Chamberlain
- Born to John Chamberlain and Jane Tew, 4/9/1857 (Q4 1857 Vol 1c pg110 - Shoreditch, London, Middlesex)
- Death is unclear. Arthur doesn’t appear in any further Census returns after 1881 and there is a Death Certificate record the 2nd quarter of 1891 (Q2 1891 Vol 1b pg193 - Islington, Greater London, Middlesex). The Assumption is that if this is his death certificate he must have died before April 5th 1891 when the census was taken.
- In the census returns Arthur was born in London but his father John was born Willey, Warwickshire (Clifton upon Dunsmore)
Military Service
7th Hussar's
Regiment #: 1498
Theatres/Campaigns were Newbridge, Cahir
7th Hussar's From:1879 To:1881. Newbridge & Cahir. 'War Office: Muster Books and Paylists WO 16/1213 7th Hussars. 7th Hussars Calvary & Footguards War Office Muster Books & Pay Lists. Date Range: 1879 - 1881
Census appearances
1861 (7th April) Census:
Arthur J Chamberlain aged 3 born around 1858, Son
Father John born in Leicester, Willey and Mother Jane
Born Shorditch, Middlesex, England
Civ Parish Middlesex, County London, Reg district Islington, Sub reg district Islington East
Ed/Institution or vessel 47
Household Schedule 154
Arthur lived with his father, mother and 2 other siblings (Ellen J and George E), as well as 2 boarders who were Tailors
The main Occupation of the household was Tailor and dressmaker
1871 (2nd April) Census:
Arthur J Chamberlain age 13 born around 1858, Son
Father John and Mother Jane
Born Shorditch, Middlesex, England
Civ Parish Islington St Peter, County London, Reg district Islington, Sub reg district Islington East
Ed/Institution or vessel 5b
Household Schedule 539
Arthur lived with his father, mother and 2 other siblings (Ellen J and George E)
The main Occupation of the household was Tailor and dressmaker
(Class: RG10; Piece: 279; Folio: 80; Page: 32; GSU roll: 824920)
1881 (3rd April) Census:
Arthur Chamberlain aged 24 born around 1857 in Tottenham, Middlesex, England.. Head of household, Spouse Elizabeth (status married) aged 22 born around 1859 in Dublin Ireland.
Occupation Private in 7th Hussars
Registration district Elham, Sub Reg District Folkstone, Ed/Institution or vessel 12
Civil Parish Cheriton, County Kent Street address ‘Chapel Street’.
(Class: RG11; Piece: 1093; Folio: 51; Page: 26; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341257)
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Horace Colbert Chamberlain
- Born to Arthur John Chamberlain and Elizabeth Colbert, 25/3/1884 (Q2 1884 Vol 3a pg286 - Edmonton, Middlesex)
- Married Jane Hagger 14/06/1915 (Q2 1915 Vol 1c pg350 - Bethnal Green, Greater London, Middlesex)
- Died 15/05/1942 (Q2 1942 Vol 4a pg190 - Essex SW)
Military Service
British Army WWI medal rolls index card 1914 – 1920
Regiment or corps: Duke of Cornwalls Light Infantry Labour Corps
Regiment #: 34321, 93114
Theatres/Campaigns were Havre (22/11/1915 to 9/11/1916). France (10/11/1916 to ?).
British War Medal. Victory Medal
Lc/Cpl - 13th Duke of Cornwall's Labour Corps. Or Duke of Cornwalls Light Infantry, Labour Corps Unit 156. COY A,C,I 611/17 - Regimental # 34321, 93114. Victory = LC/101B56 Page5681
Attestation Address: 44, 3 Colts Lane, Bethnal Green
Demob Address: 24, Tent Street, Bethnal Green
Census appearances
1891 (5th April) Census:
Horace ‘J’ Chamberlain, aged about 7, born in New Beckenham Kent.
Living with Mother Elizabeth Chamberlain aged about 31, Widow and Head of the house – Occupation ‘Ironer’. Born Isle of Wight Hampshire
Ecclesiastical Parish St Anns, Civil Parish Tottenham
(Class: RG12; Piece: 1073; Folio 17; Page 28;)
1901 and 1911 to follow....
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Annie Chamberlain
- Born quarter 1 1881 (Q1 1881 Vol 3a pg414 - Edmonton, Hertfordshire, Middlesex, Essex)
- Married Ernest William Pimm 17/12/1904 (Q4 1904 Vol 3a pg905 - Edmonton, Hertfordshire, Middlesex, Essex)
- Died 18/10/1964
Annie and Ernest’s daughters:
- Ethel Marguerite Pimm (married Bert O’Hare)
- Cissie Elizabeth Pimm (married Emil Dotter Morgan)
- May Louise (married Cecil Roger Evans)
Business Directory - Dressmaking shop
1937 to 1938 Mrs A Pimm owned a costumier business with Iris G Oram located at 57 Windmill Hill, Enfield
Electoral Register
1939 57B Windmill Hill, Enfield (Annie Pimm and May Louise Pimm)
1945 to 1956 57B Windmill Hill, Enfield (Annie Pimm and May Louise Pimm)
It appears that after Ernest’s death the business was run by someone else and Annie and May lived at the address probably above the shop...(It’s an assumption)
I’ve got a little bit more information in my notes somewhere which i’ll add here and on www.ivyonline.co.uk.
Ray and JJ once again thanks so much for your help with this :)
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Hi,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Regarding the 1891 death that you mention, I think this could be the burial for that Arthur,
St Mary, Islington
May 6 1891
Arthur CHAMBERLAIN
Age: 37
Buried by friends.
I think he could be this Arthur CHAMBERLAIN,
1891 RG12/148 f.98 p.57 Islington
51 Orpingley Rd
CHAMBERLAIN
Arthur Head 37 Potman Inn Bucks Linslade
Jane Wife 28 " "
Ellen Daur 7 Scholar London Holloway
Lily Daur 5 " " "
George Son 4 " " "
Hilda Daur 2 " "
Elizabeth SCOTT Mother W 65 Oxon Banbury
John LOYNES Boarder S 29 Carpenter London St Marylebone
Arthur Joseph CHAMBERLAIN married a Mary Jane SCOTT in 1882 and then a Mary Jane CHAMBERLAIN widow (father's name John SCOTT) marries a John LOYNES in 1897. The above lodger?
If that is correct although it doesn't help find your Arthur John CHAMBERLAIN's death I think that sometimes negative info can also be helpful.
Regards,
Daisy
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If Horace was born in Ireland (despite the birth registration in Edmonton) I think I'd decipher your notes as pointing to the Fermoy barracks near Cork
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There is a marriage in 1877 that cuold be of interest
Dublin North, Ireland, Vol 17, p480
Amonst the spouses are
Elizabeth Margaret Calbert or Colbert
Arthur Richard Chamberlain
also a possible for Horace on 1911 - his surname is mistranscribed on Ancestry
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWFH-TJD
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well done Mabel, he is a railway porter so I think it is him. He is shown as a visitor so I presume he knew either the husband or wife of the household, a family called Wraight ( the wife maiden name Bevan).
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1901 census Frederick W Wright also worked for GER Railways.
Jennifer
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Thanks Daisy, Mabel, Ray & Jennifer your guys are really good!
The Grace Cleaver marriage to Arthur Chamberlain was a tempting connection to pursue which has helped me to rule out some loose ends with Arthur. In the end the Arthur that married Grace Cleaver turned out to be a well known public figure and Chartered Accountant. He appeared as a boarder in Brighton as an Accountants Clerk in the 1881 census. In the same 1881 census my Arthur John Chamberlain is living with Elizabeth Chamberlain. He is listed as a private in the queens hussars and Elizabeth is stated as coming from Dublin Ireland. All interesting stuff as a lot of the details between the 2 Arthur's match up. I'm now thinking that the Death certificate for Arthur in Islington could be his, however it puts his age as 37 at death meaning he would have been born 10 years earlier in 1847 - this could have been an error made back then.
I'd love to know more details about the marriage of a Arthur Richard Chamberlain to Elizabeth Cal set or Colbert in 1877 in Dublin. I haven't been able to fall be the record as yet and am keen to rule it in or out. Elizabeth is a really key bit of information. Arthur joined the Hussars in 1879 and left before 1881 when they went from Home duty to the Boer War. That puts Arthur in Ireland 2 years before he seemingly joined the Hussars.
All interesting stuff - thanks so much to you all for you help it has been absolutely invaluable
James
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James, I think there may be a little bit of a mix up in your information. You have mentioned that you have a birth for Annie in Qtr 1 1881 3a 414 Edmonton. I really cannot find that birth, could you post that birth if you have it. If Annie had been born and registered by end of March 1881 she should/would have been on the 1881 census with parents.
I have however found an Annie Chamberlain born 1st Qtr 1888 3a 414 Edmonton. Her father was an Alfred Chamberlain but (on 1891 census) he was a jobbing gardener and had a wife Hannah (born London) and they were together on the 1881 census.
Also: the 1881 census details you gave: Class: RG11/1093/51 p 26 are for the Arthur Chamberlain who was the lodger and accountants clerk on the 1881 census.
The Arthur Chamberlain in the Hussars is: Class: RG11/1011/48 p 55
Arthur & wife Elizabeth were living in Cheriton in Kent, the base for Shorncliffe Army Camp since 1794 and likely where Arthur was stationed in 1881. I can't see why Annie (if born in 1881) would have been registered in Edmonton Middx.
Ray
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There is an 11 yr old Annie Chamberlain in Tottenham (also born Tottenham) in 1891 with grandparents George and Esther Chamberlain.
George and Esther are shown as Chamberlin in 1871 in Tottenham with children including a son Arthur, 15 b Hackney.
Is this the right family?
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1891 census:
Household Members:
Name Age
George Chamberlain 69
Esther Chamberlain 66
Annie Chamberlain 11
Source: RG12; Piece: 1070; Folio: 17; Page: 28;
This Annie is also on the 1881 census with grandparents:
Household Members:
Name Age
George Chamberlaine 58
Ester Chamberlaine 57 Wife
Ernest Chamberlaine 28 Son
Sarah Chamberlaine 25 daughter-in-law
Emma Chamberlaine 18 daughter
Anne Chamberlaine 1 grandaughter:
I don't think that Annie(e) was the daughter of Ernest & Sarah because they did not marry until July 1880 (obviously possible but I think that the census would have showed the link). Annie could have been Emma's daughter but I can't find a suitable birth for Annie around 1880 on freebmd, so perhaps she was born in Ireland?
Grandfather George was a bricklayer and in 1871 his son Arthur was a bricklayers apprentice.
Ray
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Hi all, thanks for the continued interest.
Ray, my spreadsheet log I use has become corrupted - I will re-validate the existing information.
The Shorncliffe information is really useful.
I've pursued the George Chamberlain route in the past and found that the details didn't fit, although with Annie or Ann Chamberlain the details are enticing. From the oral family history I have Annie was the eldest sibling but this could be incorrect. If I remember correctly I traced the George Chamberlain back in the census material and found that the chamberlain surname was originally spelt as Chambers. Either way the George route didn't seem to fit at the time but I will review again to see if I've missed something.
Annie chamberlains birth details are a mystery particularly when she doesn't appear in the 1881 census. My guess at the time was that Elizabeth was pregnant with her whilst the census was taken.
Will get back when I've done some more digging
Huge thanks once again :)
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Have you got the marriage of Annie to Ernest Pimm, this would give her fathers name and occupation.
Jennifer
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At last, the 1891 census for 25 St Ann's Road Tottenham looks to be the correct one :D
Elizabeth Chamberlain 31 widow Ironer born Isle of Wight
Horace J 7 New Beckenham
On Family Search 3 WW1 war records for Horace Colbert Chamberlain show place of birth Beckenham kent. :)
Jennifer