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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Westmeath => Topic started by: CathyD59 on Sunday 06 March 16 23:08 GMT (UK)
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Hi I'm looking for any information on John Murtagh who would of been my great grandfather, he is listed in the 1911 Dublin census along with his wife Mary born 1879 in Co. Kildare, and his two daughters Kathleen (my grandmother) 1908 and Mary Bridget 1910/11 both born in Dublin.
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Hi
Can you clarify exactly what type of information you are looking for?
Have you looked for him on the 1901 Irish census?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
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Did you get Kathleen's marriage cert?
Earlier thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=740601.0
I can see a birth for a Kathleen Murtagh in 1908 http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/547d670635429
Mother Byrne but I can't find a match for Mary or a marriage of John Murtagh to a Mary Byrne.
1911 Census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Usher_s_Quay/Vauxhall_Gardens/72336/
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Looking at the Census image again I think Mary Bridget could be 11 months not 4 in which case I can find a birth and a marriage but can't find a Kathleen/Catherine
So maddening.
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Hi. I'm looking for any family of John's the only things I know are he was born in 1880 in Westmeath, I know this from the 1911 Dublin census. I'm not sure how I find info on him and his birth family, and his wife who was born in Co. Kildare in 1879/80. I know Kathleen was born 1908 married John Watters in 1934 and died in 1945 as John died in 1942 their children (which included my mum) where sent to a ophanage. I don't know any more, just have a urge to find out about him and his wife.
Thank you both for your help
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Suggest John Murtagh to Mary Daly 1907
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/7db0a26736150
Mary 1910 http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/2916500471352
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FB5H-JMR
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Thank you dathai
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That's the one I was thinking of but why isn't Kathleen showing up?
Wonder could they have moved abroad for a few years, pity there is no place of birth for the two girls on the Census.
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Kathleen and Mary were born in Dublin as far as I know, John and Mary were married in Dublin I know Kathleen/Catherine married John Watters in April 1934 as I have a picture of their marriage cert don't know about Mary. I'm more interested in John, Mary and Mary Bridget, thank you for your help I'm useless at this.
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It's just if we could find a Kathleen Murtagh with mother Daly in the birth index we would know we were looking at the correct couple, than you could get their marriage cert.
What occupation if any is given for the father on the marriage cert you have or does it just say deceased.
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It says he's a labourer
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Just reading over your first thread.
You only had Kathleen and her husband to start with and knew they died young and their children went into an orphanage.
Now you know from the marriage cert that Kathleen's father was John a labourer.
How do you know that is the correct family in the 1911 Census?
I'm saying your wrong just wondering if they is something I missed.
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Because I remembered my mum mentioning living in Maxwell Street with her mum and dad, Kathleen and John Watters, and her grandparents living on the same street, this info is on the database.dublincity.ie. I then found their marriege cert which has the fathers names as John Murtagh Labourer and William Watters Gas Fitter
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The census does seem to fit, and there are no Murtaghs on Maxwell Street in 1911 so they must have moved there by 1915 as John is there on the 1908 - 1915 voters list.
But than I confused my self. I went back through the voters list to check the year on the front of the book John appears in and the date is 1909.
So I search the voters list by year and compared it with the Census and John is in one but not the other.
Head melt.
Not sure if both these links will work.
Voters list 1911
http://databases.dublincity.ie/burgesses/search_new.php?searchtype=street&year=1911&address01=MAXWELL%20STREET
Census 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000159047/
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Christopher Murtagh could this be Owen that appears with them on register of electors
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/2378fb0301960
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FB5R-Z68
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Could be I've been going mad looking for Owen, how did you find him ?
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From 1901 to 1915 you can see the mother's maiden name on Irish Genealogy Civil birth's, it's better to cross check them against Family Search Civil indexes as they usually include a second name, but not always.
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What about Teresa?
http://databases.dublincity.ie/electoral/viewdoc.php?&voterid=837488&source=integration
Could this chap be Owen or is he too young
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/f6bb000083865
I'm having a lot of doubts about all this.
We need Kathleen's birth.
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Owen appears on register from 1937 so less 21 born 1916 or earlier
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Teresa is a witness to John Watters (Waltors)and Kathleen's marriage in 1934 they lived at 21 Maxwell Street I think my mum was born there. I don't think the Owen you've found is too young.
I can't find a birth cert for Kathleen/Catherine, its all so madding lol. I do appreciate you help thank you.
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Do you think that maybe John and Mary weren't married when Kathleen was born and she could been registered in her mothers name,
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Do you think that maybe John and Mary weren't married when Kathleen was born and she could been registered in her mothers name,
Possible, worth a look at least.
If the mother is Daly than the marriage was 1907 November, so Kathleen would be a year older than we thought.
I'm not seeing one in 1907.
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On my mum's birth cert she Kathleen Watters formerly Murtagh 21 Maxwell Street, on her marriage cert she Catherine and on her death cert she Catherine both of 18 Maxwell Street. I'm going to look for a Kathleen or Catherine Daly 1908 what do you think.
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I'm thinking her birth wasn't registered, and the best thing would be to get the birth cert of one of the other children if we can be fairly sure we have a correct birth for one of them.
Preferable one born when they lived on Maxwell St.
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Ok I will start looking thanks
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Try and get this family straight.
Kathleen's address on marriage was Maxwell Street, father John.
We have a John on Maxwell Street with Mary, his wife
no sign of Kathleen but a Owen and Teresa
also no sigh of Kathleen, Owen or Teresa in birth index.
Teresa was Kathleen's marriage witness.
Family my have another daughter Mary Bridget, where did she go, did she die.
Mother may be Daly.
and I've just notice a Catherine Waters living with Mary and Owen,
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01h7x/ (1943-44)
could this be another mis-spelt Watters after Kathleen's husband died.
From previous thread
There is a John Watters in 1942 born about 1903 which is more in keeping with your information also it's Dublin South which is the same district as the children's births.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FTLT-NMF
There is a John and Kathleen Watters living at 21 Maxwell St. 1937 to 1940
http://databases.dublincity.ie/electoral/advanced.php
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It looks like she moved back in with her mother when John died in 1942. Was it common practice not to register a child. I'm sure Kathleen had a brother called John as at some point my mum and her siblings lived with John and his wife Masie, in Crumlin. Sorry I'm not much help my mum didn't remember much only she was young when they died her and her sister were sent to an ophanage, and were later taken in by John.
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It was illegal not to register births.
Masie would be Margaret I think!?
A possible
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/120a5b6248501
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If Kathleen had a brother John are we barking up the wrong tree thinking Owen was her brother.
John and Owen are the same name, but an Ellen shows up with Owen in Maxwell St. I had assumed she was his wife and he was in fact John but if John was married to a Masie.
It getting more confusing not less.
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It is all confusing don't know what to do now keep driving myself mad or give up, so frustrating lol
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Just found a Kathleen Murtagh 1908 Dublin South on familysearch.org, do you think that could be her,
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It's probably the one I found earlier
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/547d670635429
Mother Byrne
I'd forgotten about it.
I couldn't find a marriage for a John Murtagh and Mary Byrne and than we went down the Daly route.
It's worth investigating more but not tonight.
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Good night Sinann sleep well, thank you for you help.
Cathy
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Number 6
John Murtagh of Killulagh (Westmeath) and Dublin wife Mary and daughter Teresa
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/westmeath/photos/tombstones/1headstones/killulagh.txt
and Number 7
Owen wife Ellen and son Michael.
what ya think?
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No 6 If this is them then the Teresa on Kathleen's marriage cert is her sister, I've looked on database. dublincity and John is on the electoral list after 1939/40 so that also fits with the death year.
No 7 Is it possible to find out where Owen and Ellen died, as my mums aunt and uncle live in London for year, mum didn't get on with her aunt so I only saw them a few times as a child. I think he died first. Your very good at this.
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If that grave is the correct family
This looks good for 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Killulagh/Mulchanstown/1778516/
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I was trying to find a death notice for Ellen as it's quite recent but no luck so far.
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John Murtagh 1940
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FT2R-22R
how strange mother Daly
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FPT8-P6J
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Owen Murtagh
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FYGQ-T6K
Helen Murphy ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FYGQ-66P
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how strange mother Daly
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FPT8-P6J
All look good, that Daly name will haunt me.
This family is looking great now but we still haven't found anything solid to fix Kathleen to them.
I wonder if her death cert would help.
Need to check the first thread for that.
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As yes we had a problem with her death as well
The difficulty seems to be the double t in Watters, Waters is more usual so I think the double t handwritten knocks people off their stride.
As here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F1WF-HQ6
This is more than likely Margaret but as Waters.
With that in mind there are two possible deaths in Dublin South
Kathleen Waters age 47 in 1943
Catherine Waters age 36 in 1945
If she was born 1908 the second one would be the more likely.
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Yes Margaret would have been Kathleen and John's daughter my mums sister, and Catherine Watters was Kathleen, not too sure about Owen and Helen unless there was another child called John who married a Masie/Mary.
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I'm confused did Joh Murtagh 1878/80 marry a woman with the same last name as his mother
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I'm confused did Joh Murtagh 1878/80 marry a woman with the same last name as his mother
We don't know for sure that Mary his wife was Daly but if she was than yes he did.
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Yes Margaret would have been Kathleen and John's daughter my mums sister, and Catherine Watters was Kathleen, not too sure about Owen and Helen unless there was another child called John who married a Masie/Mary.
Helen and Ellen are like Kathleen and Catherine, pretty much interchangeable so that marriage looks good for Owen and Ellen.
Could John have been a cousin of Kathleen's but the children thought he was their uncle.
Or my constant fear, we have the wrong family.
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There is also the possibility Kathleen wasn't John's daughter at all but the child of an unmarried relative, which might explain why we can't find her birth.
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Sometimes a marriage is written on the baptism but no such luck with John
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635128#page/106/mode/1up
4th down on left hand page.
The Delvin register starts 1785 we could have a ball working back if we could only prove he's the correct person.
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My mum lived with them when they lived in Clogher Road and she always said he was her uncle, I think she lived with them until she was in her late teens, my mums brother (not sure if he's still living) and his wife stayed there when John and Masie moved to London, if that makes sense.
I hope we have the right family lol.
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Perhaps it's you mothers brother you should try and find.
You could look for a death first, do you know his wife's name?
https://www.iannounce.co.uk/Irish-Independent/750/Death/death?_fstatus=search
http://notices.irishtimes.com/obituaries-and-death-notices/2006-02-03?page=1
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There is a marriage
26/11/1907
John Murtagh
Mary Daly Dublin South.
There are 2 births registered with MMN Daly
Mary 20/4/1910
Christopher 23/12/1911
There is also a birth
29/5/1908
Unknown Murtagh (female)
MMN Murtagh
Just something to think about.
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There is a marriage
26/11/1907
John Murtagh
Mary Daly Dublin South.
There are 2 births registered with MMN Daly
Mary 20/4/1910
Christopher 23/12/1911
There is also a birth
29/5/1908
Unknown Murtagh (female)
MMN Murtagh
Just something to think about.
We have them Sue but without Kathleen's birth we still don't know if they are the correct couple.
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The Kathleen born 1908 mother Byrne appears to be this family, note the single sister in law Byrne.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Wood_Quay__part_of_/Long_Lane/81398/
So that birth can be ruled out.
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Because Kathleen died when my mum was young she didn't remember much so I only know a few things, she lived in Maxwell Street, he brother John went to live with his granny (I'm thinking Mary), my mum Teresa and her sister Margaret were sent to an orphanage and then they were taken in by their Uncle John and Aunt Masie who lived on Clogher Rd Crumlin. John and Masie came to London at some point and live here for years not sure if they died here or Ireland.
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Where is Mullingar as I just remember mum saying something about Mullingar maybe something to do with her granny (Mary?)
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Where is Mullingar as I just remember mum saying something about Mullingar maybe something to do with her granny (Mary?)
County Westmeath - about 80 odd miles or so from Dublin, depending which route you take
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Thank you Lisa
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Just thought they may still be alive send info by PM
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Just search for 49 Clougher Road
We get
Murtagh
Mary (Sen.) 1949 - 50 1950-51
John
Mary
Murtagh 1954-55
John
Mary
Murtagh 1955-56
John
Mary
Mary E
Murtagh 1956-57
John
Mary E
Than 1962 -63 -64
changes to the two Watters
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Mary (Sen) could be Kathleen's mum
John could be her brother
Mary (Masie ?) Johns wife and maybe Mary E is their daughter, what do you think.
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Mary (Sen) could be Kathleen's mum
John could be her brother
Mary (Masie ?) Johns wife and maybe Mary E is their daughter, what do you think.
That's what I was thinking and than the house was taken over by the Watters, your mum's brother.
Finally we found something that fits to your mum's memories.
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That's great, thank you, so can we go back from here to trace Kathleen's parents.
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That's the hope......
We have an idea now when Mary (Sen.) died and we know now Kathleen's mother was a Mary and Kathleen had a brother John.
So we can try to find Mary through her death, a head stone would be great.
We can try to follow John back through his daughter's birth, his marriage, birth.
Doesn't mean it will be easy or possible.
First does the period Mary (Sen.) no longer appears in the house fit with that grave in Westmeath?
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From what I can see the gravestone says 1960 and I don't think she appears on the register after 1955/56 so if that's her where was she from 56 to 60.
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some parts of the register for those years are missing
see bottom line
http://databases.dublincity.ie/electoral/help.php
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Thank you dathai didn't notice that
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I'm trying to find Mary E Murtagh's birth.
Think I have ruled out mothers Smith and Kavanagh.
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I've come to the conclusion the only way forward with this is the Newspapers.
Death notices might give vital clues
This site is very good https://www.irishnewsarchive.com/
But I'd be inclined to wait on till the Evening Hearld is added at the end of March.
You can take out a 24 hour subscription for €10 about £8.
That or try to find children of your Uncle on social media.
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Thank you for all your help hopefully I will be able to trace more family, but I couldn't of got this far with out your help.
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Do you know the name of the church John Watters and Kathleen got married in.
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Hi yes St. Theresa South City Dublin.
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Perhaps an e mail to Fr Christopher Clarke might get you mothers name from marriage register nothing ventured nothing gained
http://clarendonstreet.com/
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Thank you that's worth a try.
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I've just sent Fr. Clarke an e-mail, I will let you know how I get on.
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John Murtagh and Mary Catherine Daly 1907
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1907/10108/5677586
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Thank you for your help, I'm now trying to find out who their parents are.
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John and Mary are my Grandparents. I did not know John but Mary lived in Finglas with us until she went into the Hospice in Harold's Cross where she died in 1960
I recall my dad talking about Treasa.
Owen and Ellen are my Parents - We moved from Maxwell Street to Finglas in 1956/7
As a child I remember visiting John and Maisy Murtagh in Clogher Road before they emigrated to London where I visited in 1973 and also visiting another Uncle Owen in Surry the same time.
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Hi Eamon, John and Mary were my great grandparents, their daughter Kathleen was my grandmother, I did meet John and Masiy when I was a lot younger (I'm now 57) my mum Teresa Watters, they're niece took me to see them.
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Just thinking, your dad must be my granny's brother. From what I've discovered John and Mary had 4/5 children Kathleen, Mary, John, Teresa, Christopher Owen and Dennis who died at 4 weeks. Is that right?