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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: paulsplace2009 on Thursday 24 March 16 09:12 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I have an ancestor who died at sea between 1870 and 1877.
All of my research , including poor law records leads me to believe this.
I am wondering, as he died at sea, would his wife had to obtain a death certificate, or would she just have been notified of his death and that would have been it?
Many thanks
Paul
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Was he employed by the Royal Navy or in the Merchant Navy?
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Hello, yes, from what I believe.
He was a merchant seaman
Many thanks
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Have you searched for his death certificate on the ordinary death index, yet?
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As Scouse Boy said you should look for a death index.
I have an ancestor who was lost at sea in 1876 and there is a death certificate for him. He was a fisherman lost in the North Sea and his death was registered in the normal way.
Perhaps it is different if you were a Merchant Seaman but there has to be some kind of record somewhere I would think.
Dorrie
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Marine Register of Deaths at Sea.
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Try Scotlandspeople deaths under Minor Records, then Marine Returns/ Register.
Matt
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FindMyPast has records of seamen and passengers who died whilst on board a British registered vessels.
The Deaths at Sea register should tell you, the name of the ship, her official number, cause of death, place of death. This information usually comes from the vessels logbook. When the vessel returns to a UK port details from the logbook are transcribed by Registrar General of Shipping and Seamen, who in turn passes it to the Registrar Generals for England and Wales, Scotland and Ireland. Which ever is appropriate.
Unless there was doctor on board, no Death Certificate was issued. A shorter copy may be obtained from GRO which is usually a copy of the details contained within the register compiled by RGSS.
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My direct ancestor James Lawrie fell from the topsailyard of the sailing ship Miramichi in the Atlantic on Christmas day, 1865.
I cannot find his death in SP or FindMyPast.
I found his death in a January 4th, 1866 newspaper the Glasgow Daily Herald.
That is the only proof and description of his death.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=460914.9
(last post)
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My g/g/uncle David Lawrie was lost overboard on the British Queen in the North Sea in January, 1891.
I cannot find him in FindMyPast but he is in the Minor Records in SP.
Just a one line, minimal amount Death Certificate.
Again I had to rely on a newspaper report regarding his death.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=460914.9
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=462324.9
(last post).
FindMyPast claims to have Merchant Seaman records.
Is it the way I search or are they telling porkies?
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Is it the way I search or are they telling porkies?
James Lawrie is recorded on FindMyPast but a direct search on there gives negative results.
Two men were killed in the incident the other being one Arthur Shearman ( as written in an earlier article 4/1/1866 in the Glasgow Herald)
A search of FindMyPast using this name comes up with A Sharman. Directly underneath is the entry for your man. The cause of death was given as the catch all, "Drowned at sea" He signed on MIRAMICHI 24/Aug/1865.
If you want total confirmation as to his cause of death (If you don't believe every thing you read in the newspapers) You should be able to get hold of a copy of the logbook record. Probably in her first 1866 logbook.
MIRAMICHI official number 32833.
https://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=32833
David Lawrie is also on FindMyPast. Try using the search Laurie.
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Is it the way I search or are they telling porkies?
James Lawrie is recorded on FindMyPast but a direct search on there gives negative results.
Two men were killed in the incident the other being one Arthur Shearman ( as written in an earlier article 4/1/1866 in the Glasgow Herald)
A search of FindMyPast using this name comes up with A Sharman. Directly underneath is the entry for your man. The cause of death was given as the catch all, "Drowned at sea" He signed on MIRAMICHI 24/Aug/1865.
If you want total confirmation as to his cause of death (If you don't believe every thing you read in the newspapers) You should be able to get hold of a copy of the logbook record. Probably in her first 1866 logbook.
MIRAMICHI official number 32833.
https://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=32833
David Lawrie is also on FindMyPast. Try using the search Laurie.
Thanks for that but I'm still having problems searching FindMyPast.
I click education & work> merchant navy & maritime then enter David Laurie.
I have no idea what record set to pick so I leave that blank, click the search button and get lots of Lauries of various variants but none are him.
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Sorry. Maybe I was a little misleading. The records surrounding the death of David Lawrie are recorded on FindMyPast.
The official line states he jumped over board (committed suicide) another catch all cause of death which meant no enquiry and no payouts to his dependants.
My experience over the years suggests that this excuse was a common occurrence and I have known cases were men was clearly murdered only to be recorded as suicide. Simple. No body, no case to answer.
I am not suggesting this happened to your man. The sea can be a lonely place and people can suffer depression but it leaves a cloud over his demise.
The reason that you cannot discover his MN service on FindMyPast is that no central personal records were kept between 1857 and 1913, personal records for the period of WW1 have been destroyed.
The only way is to try and back track via crew agreements and logbooks.
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Sorry. Maybe I was a little misleading. The records surrounding the death of David Lawrie are recorded on FindMyPast.
The official line states he jumped over board (committed suicide) another catch all cause of death which meant no enquiry and no payouts to his dependants.
My experience over the years suggests that this excuse was a common occurrence and I have known cases were men was clearly murdered only to be recorded as suicide. Simple. No body, no case to answer.
I am not suggesting this happened to your man. The sea can be a lonely place and people can suffer depression but it leaves a cloud over his demise.
The reason that you cannot discover his MN service on FindMyPast is that no central personal records were kept between 1857 and 1913, personal records for the period of WW1 have been destroyed.
The only way is to try and back track via crew agreements and logbooks.
I don't think crew agreements and logbooks are online - are they?
David Lawrie was engaged to his cousin Mary Ann Sime and the family believe he was murdered and thrown overboard.
His dad was the James Lawrie who died Christmas day, 1865 and his mum was Isabella Sime.
Of course there is no proof but apparently he was on his way home to Fife for his wedding.
He was supposedly carry a sum of money and several presents.
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I transcribed crewlists for many years (the work has just finished) and there were many fights recorded in the masters' notes for the Shipping Office, many of the seamen were frequently drunk. I only came across one recorded murder though. Many others fell off the masts or rigging whilst working on them.
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You're right buckhyne, crew agreements are not online, you have to look for them at the National Archives. Even then, only a small proportion are kept there, Seaweed can probably tell you the percentage.
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I transcribed crewlists for many years (the work has just finished) and there were many fights recorded in the masters' notes for the Shipping Office, many of the seamen were frequently drunk. I only came across one recorded murder though. Many others fell off the masts or rigging whilst working on them.
My David Lawrie was a crewman on the SS Ardbeg but was travelling as a passenger on the British Queen.
His father, James Lawrie fell from the topsailyard of the Miramichi on Christmas day, 1865 in the Atlantic (according to newspaper report).
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You're right buckhyne, crew agreements are not online, you have to look for them at the National Archives. Even then, only a small proportion are kept there, Seaweed can probably tell you the percentage.
Thanks Roobarb, just as I suspected.
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Seems it's only 10% at TNA :(
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/crew-lists-agreements-log-books-merchant-ships-after-1861/#3-which-records-have-survived
Having said that, I've found quite a number for my own ancestor, perhaps I've just been lucky but worth a try if you can make it down there. They're fascinating to look at too. :)
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Seems it's only 10% at TNA :(
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/crew-lists-agreements-log-books-merchant-ships-after-1861/#3-which-records-have-survived
Having said that, I've found quite a number for my own ancestor, perhaps I've just been lucky but worth a try if you can make it down there. They're fascinating to look at too. :)
I ken it's no your fault but why should I or anybody else have to travel 'down there' to look at crew lists or whatever.
They should be online so that we can all access them.
I noticed this wee snippet:
The rest, approximately 70% of the crew lists and agreements for 1863-1938 and 1951-1976, were transferred to the Maritime History Archive in Canada.
These aren't online, does that mean I have to travel to Canada to access them.
Why could they no be in SP website or anywhere else easily accessible?
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It would certainly be nice if they were available online buckhyne but that would be an absolutely mammoth task. The crew agreements are each a sizeable bundle of of documents, although the TNA holding is only a small proportion it constitutes a massive amount of paper.
As far as 'should be online' is concerned, I'm sure we all feel like that about the documents we're particularly interested in but in reality, priority must be given to those that provide information about the greatest number of people to the greatest number of interested parties. TNA holds literally millions of documents, it would be an impossible task to digitise everything.
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Fair enough but why can't they be offered to genealogy sites like SP or FindMyPast.
They would surely be a nice little earner.
Anyway thanks for your help
.
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Hi Everyone
Just an update...
Through a poor law record, I now know that Edward died / drowned in or around October 1871' information which I got from a poor law record...
Still can't find anything on Marine Death Register or Minor records... so looks like I may need to rely on newspapers ....
Any thoughts?
Many thanks
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Hi Everyone
Just an update...
Through a poor law record, I now know that Edward died / drowned in or around October 1871' information which I got from a poor law record...
Still can't find anything on Marine Death Register or Minor records... so looks like I may need to rely on newspapers ....
Any thoughts?
Many thanks
That's what I did, it's the only way.
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What would be the best paper to search for this kind of thing? This family we're based in Glasgow,, thanks
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What would be the best paper to search for this kind of thing? This family we're based in Glasgow,, thanks
I added my newspaper attachments just as you posted.
Your ancestor was a merchant seaman just like my ancestors.
There is no hard and fast rule as to which newspaper to look at.
I suppose any newspaper would print the death if they thought it newsworthy.
If the family were from Glasgow then I suppose the Glasgow newspapers would be a good start.
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The rest, approximately 70% of the crew lists and agreements for 1863-1938 and 1951-1976, were transferred to the Maritime History Archive in Canada.
These aren't online, does that mean I have to travel to Canada to access them.
If you know the Official Number of the vessel the crew member sailed on then they will look up the details for you at a cost (which is quite expensive) see www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/searchcombinedcrews.php.
I understood that the only reason the records are at the Maritime History Archive in Canada is that TNA wanted to destroy them and the Canadians stepped in to preserve them. So I guess we should be thankful for small mercies.
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The rest, approximately 70% of the crew lists and agreements for 1863-1938 and 1951-1976, were transferred to the Maritime History Archive in Canada.
These aren't online, does that mean I have to travel to Canada to access them.
If you know the Official Number of the vessel the crew member sailed on then they will look up the details for you at a cost (which is quite expensive) see www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/searchcombinedcrews.php.
I understood that the only reason the records are at the Maritime History Archive in Canada is that TNA wanted to destroy them and the Canadians stepped in to preserve them. So I guess we should be thankful for small mercies.
I believe that is correct and I am grateful for small mercies.
But in reality these records are gone.
How many of us know the names of any of the ships our ancestors worked on.
The one thing I am grateful for is my ancestors seaman's ticket.
I can't remember where I found it - either FindMyPast or the Crew List.
But it has a wealth of information.
His birth in Wemyss, Fife is not in the O.P.R.
He was born (according to the census) circa 1827 but the seamans ticket gives his birth date as 9th January, 1827.
He was 5'5" with brown hair, hazel eyes and his complexion was dark.
He also had an anchor tattoo on his left hand.
He was issued his ticket at Leith in July, 1847.
A wee bit of paper but with lots of info.
Brilliant!
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If it's David your last post is describing, there is a :-
DAVID LOURIE to JOHN LOURIE/ALISON FLOCKART, 27/11/1825 at Wemyss.
Or if it's James, then:-
James LAURIE to GILMOR LAURIE/MARGARET STEEL FR980 06/01/1827 in Cupar
Regards
Malky
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His name was Edward Copeland
Many thanks
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Too many side tracks in this thread.
Regards
Malky
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If it's David your last post is describing, there is a :-
DAVID LOURIE to JOHN LOURIE/ALISON FLOCKART, 27/11/1825 at Wemyss.
Or if it's James, then:-
James LAURIE to GILMOR LAURIE/MARGARET STEEL FR980 06/01/1827 in Cupar
Regards
Malky
He was James Lawrie, son of William Lawrie & Sophia Neish in Buckhaven, Wemyss.
His seamans ticket gives the date 9th January, 1827 but it's no in the OPR.
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His name was Edward Copeland
Many thanks
Perhaps someone can find his death at sea in the newspapers.
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"He was James Lawrie, son of William Lawrie & Sophia Neish in Buckhaven, Wemyss."
I note that there is a marriage recorded as :- William Lourie and Sofia Nish, 27 November 1818 in Wemyss.
I note the family is in the 1841 census and 14 year old James is a Ropeman.
Regards
Malky
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"He was James Lawrie, son of William Lawrie & Sophia Neish in Buckhaven, Wemyss."
I note that there is a marriage recorded as :- William Lourie and Sofia Nish, 27 November 1818 in Wemyss.
I note the family is in the 1841 census and 14 year old James is a Ropeman.
Regards
Malky
That's the family.
There were 7 bairns but only Agnes 19th May, 1834, Buckhaven is in the OPR births.
They were all born Buckhaven but then after 1837 moved a wee bit up the coast to Largo.
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Hi Everyone
I have been through every edition of the Herald, but that hasnt yield any results... and it was painstaking! haha
I think i am resigned to the fact i may never get to the bottom of this one...
Cheers
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Hello Paul, my mm ancestor died at sea in 1873 and I found him in Find My Past's "Register of the Effects belonging to seamen who died at sea" (or similar wording, Seaweed may know the actual title). My man was on a foreign registered ship, but his wife lived in Plymouth. He is in the probate lists even though he died intestate, and I was able to get a copy of the original probate.
Having said that, I have never again been able to access these records on FindMyPast - this was about 7 years ago and shortly after that they seemed to have disappeared. Perhaps it might be worth your while contacting them. Hope this helps.