RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: hurworth on Sunday 17 April 16 21:22 BST (UK)
-
I'd be grateful if someone would look up this couple please if it's not too much trouble.
Some trees have her as a member of the family of George Thomson and Helen Leadbetter who arrived in Dunedin on The Jura in 1858 and lived at Pine Hill in Dunedin (who are related to the Boyer and Fiveash families that have been discussed in earlier threads).
The Thomson family originates from Eddleston and the Leadbetters from Penicuik.
However her burial details at Purewa in Auckland say she is Australian and her will doesn't mention any Thomson relatives, so I'm wondering whether the ITM may have some clues.
-
Hello hurworth
An Intention to Marry notice is not (unfortunately) a substitute for a marriage record, so will not contain details of parents.
[It might only prove helpful if one of the parties was "under the legal age for marriage" in which case the person giving permission, is generally noted on the ITM. e.g. "Thomas JONES, father of the bride". ] ;)
Incidentally, I did notice that NZ BDM (online) has the bridegroom's surname spelled as "MOVEMENT".
1870/48818 - Catherine BENSON - William MOVEMENT
[Another resource, NZSG Marriages Index also has that same spelling. ]
* Are the family trees you mention, available online ??? If you can provide a link to same, then I'm happy to search further for you. ;)
~ Lu
-
Thank you Lucy.
The surname has been transcribed incorrectly when it was indexed. It would be easy to mistake an r for a v.
This is probably the most accessible tree
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:419960&id=I235
I'm reluctant to order the marriage or death printouts because I'm not convinced she is the correct person.
Pointers that wouldn't rule out her being the correct person would be if she was marrying at a Presbytarian church or that of another family member (her first marriage was at her father's house in Pine Hill) and was a widow.
If she is a spinster and marrying in a Catholic church then I'm sure it's not the correct person.
-
What name is she under in Purewa?
Cheers Janette
-
Her will is here (Catherine Morement) -1925
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3AMorement~&collection_id=1865481
-
What name is she under in Purewa?
Cheers Janette
Findmypast says she is Kathleen Morement, and Australian.
But it also says the inscription on the headstone says:
Inscription ILMO William the beloved husband of Catherine MOREMENT d 8 Jun 1919.
-
Thanks Hurworth ;)
... meantime I'd found some trees (most with repetitious info ... and a little unhelpful ;D ).
* My next question was to have asked if Catherine was perhaps a widow at the time of her marriage to William MOREMENT in 1870 ???
My reason for asking was that I'd spotted a marriage of a Catherine THOMSON to Thomas BENSON in Otago (Dunedin) in 1866. [That was before I'd seen the link you gave to the tree at rootsweb. ;) ]
~ Lu
-
The burials in Purewa are spelt MORMONT
Surname MORMONT
First Names William
Age 85 Years
Gender Male
Date of Death 08 Jun 1919
Religion Not Listed
Serial No 6954
Funeral Director T J Mc Ivor & Sons Ltd, 434 Karangahape Road, Auckland
Cemetery Purewa Cemetery
Location Block F Row 46 Plot 155
Date of Service and/or Interment 11 Jun 1919
Surname MORMONT
First Names Kathleen
Age 70 Years
Gender Female
Date of Death 11 Sep 1925
Religion Not Listed
Serial No 8810
Funeral Director T J Mc Ivor & Sons Ltd, 434 Karangahape Road, Auckland
Cemetery Purewa Cemetery
Location Block F Row 46 Plot 155
Date of Service and/or Interment 14 Sep 1925
Cheers Janette
-
Thanks Hurworth ;)
... meantime I'd found some trees (most with repetitious info ... and a little unhelpful ;D ).
* My next question was to have asked if Catherine was perhaps a widow at the time of her marriage to William MOREMENT in 1870 ???
My reason for asking was that I'd spotted a marriage of a Catherine THOMSON to Thomas BENSON in Otago (Dunedin) in 1866. [That was before I'd seen the link you gave to the tree at rootsweb. ;) ]
~ Lu
Presbytarian archives in Dunedin have that 1866 record - she married at home in Pine Hill.
She is recorded in several trees as remarrying to William "Movement" but I'm not sure that she did. One reason I am unsure is that I can't find any record of Thomas Benson's death between 1866 and 1870.
-
Aha,
Did you have this query on the TM genie board in August last year?
Cheers Janette
-
Hi ... as I mentioned previously, there is an official registration (1870) of her marriage to William MOREMENT ... it's just that the indexes (I've consulted), have the groom's surname spelled as
MOVEMENT.
As to a death for Thomas BENSON (I've only searched briefly) no, I haven't sighted one either.
However, lack of a death registration / evidence of death (of a previous spouse), did not always preclude a woman from entering into another legal marriage.
Of more interest, might be what the Bride said concerning her status at the time of a later marriage.
e.g. Did she declare herself a widow ??? Was she a "spinster" ??
* Maybe it's worthwhile also getting a look up for this 1866 THOMAS / BENSON marriage.
{The bride, Catherine THOMSON was 18 years old - so permission was needed for her to wed. }
~ Lu
-
Aha,
Did you have this query on the TM genie board in August last year?
Cheers Janette
Yes - and the genies were very helpful and nutted out the transcription errors.
-
Further to reply # 7.......
This in Papers Past re the death of William Morement. "His widow Mrs. C. R. B. Morement.........."
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=AS19190610.2.104&srpos=1&e=-------10--1----2william+morement--
Minniehaha.
-
Thanks for the death notice.
I've followed them around on the electoral rolls and have their wills etc, and also the wills of a Thomson sister (which doesn't mention Catherine at all).
The ITM would help clarify whether it is likely she really is a widow called Catherine Benson and the intended place of marriage could also be a clue.
-
Thanks for the death notice.
I've followed them around on the electoral rolls and have their wills etc, ...
.... does this mean there was a will (Probate record) for William MOREMENT ?? (Couldn't see one ?)
-
No - sorry - I can't find one for William either.
Jessie Capstick the daughter of George Thomson and Helen Leadbetter and her probate is on Familysearch, 1916. She didn't have any children.
-
Mmm ... some "mysterious" names in Catherine's Will ?
Not having any joy in finding leads to these people. ::)
~ Lu
-
* Maybe it's worthwhile also getting a look up for this 1866 THOMAS / BENSON marriage.
{The bride, Catherine THOMSON was 18 years old - so permission was needed for her to wed. }
~ Lu
If the age at death for Catherine Morement is correct then she was 15 years old when she married in 1870, so would have also needed permission.
-
... ooops ... sorry, I've deleted this post as I realised I had probably misinterpreted something posted earlier. ;D
~ Lu
-
Hi hurworth
Thank you for your message. ;)
I have some additional info to post here, but just before I do that, can you clarify please how it is that you arrive at "Catherine THOMSON" or "Catherine BENSON" ? Just looking at trees/ and NZ records, and it would seem that neither woman had children.
* Are you following the THOMSON or BENSON lines ?
~ Lu
-
Hi Lucy.
It's the Thomson side I am interested in.
I was hoping the Intention to Marry Notice might help confirm whether or not the Catherine Benson who married William Morement in 1870 is the same woman who married Thomas Benson in 1866, but if you've managed to work out the people in the will that might also tell us whether or not Catherine Benson was a spinster from Australia.
-
Further to reply #7.....
Another spelling variation re the death of Kathleen.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=NZH19250914.2.2.5&srpos=1&e=--1925---1925--10-AS%2cNZH-1----2moremont--
Minniehaha.
-
Hi hurworth
Returning to Catherine MOREMENT :
It does seem that this lady may not have had immediate family in New Zealand (probably the reason her friend Eliza Lawson GRANGE is mentioned in the Will of Catherine.) It may also account for the misspelling of her name as "Kathleen" in the newspaper death notice (unless it was her "pet name" ?). She was though according her the signature on her Will (dated 10 July 1923), "Catherine".
I've been able to trace some of the persons named as beneficiaries in the Will of Catherine MOREMENT. They were all born in (and died in), Victoria, Australia.
The following, referred to as "my nieces", are all from one family -- the children of a George BENSON and his wife Mary OWEN (or OWENS).
* Mary BENSON (1875-1961) / May BENSON (m. PARKER) (1885-1974) / Eva BENSON (1887-1975) / Gladys BENSON (1890-1949) ... her death notice confirms she was also known as "Jackie" as mentioned in the Will / Doris BENSON (1893-1970).
[ There were other children born to this couple - Elizabeth (Beth - Mrs GARTNER), and Lillian (McCRACKEN) survived Gladys BENSON - some had also died in childhood. The other two nieces and a nephew named in Catherine's will I have not yet found.]
George BENSON - 72 years (father of Catherine's nieces) died at St. Kilda, VIC. in 1923. His death registration gives his parents as "Jno (John) BENSON and Catherine RYAN".
[His death notice mentioned only his wife, Mary.]
A child named "Catherine BENSON" was born to "a John BENSON and Cath. RYAN" - 1846 - Melbourne, Victoria, (very probably the sister of George BENSON b. Mt Macedon, Vic, 1851 ) - although this (1846) year does not exactly tally with the supposed year of birth on Catherine MOREMENT's death record.
My guess is that this Catherine MOREMENT (nee BENSON) was born in Australia. :D
~ Lu
-
Having again looked over a good number of "trees" for the Dunedin THOMSON family (George and Helen), none seem to have been able to show how they arrived at naming the "5" children who accompanied George THOMSON and wife to NZ per the "Jura" in 1858 ?? There does not appear to be a passenger list for that voyage, which gives any further detail. [Were the children's names taken from the 1851 Scotland census ? How is it known that "Catherine" was on the voyage ? ]
There are NZ records for "5" THOMSON children - Margaret / Jessie / Jeanie (Jeannie) and James Alexander - but the 5th child (Ellen) was born at Dunedin in 1859.
** Does the death notice for George THOMSON, suggest that Catherine is already deceased in 1897 ?
(Her brother James Alexander THOMSON had died in 1889).
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Evening Star" (Dunedin) - 13 February 1897 - page 2
THOMSON - George ... February 12th at his residence, Pine Hill ... beloved husband of Helen THOMSON and father of
Mrs DICK [this is Margaret formerly Mrs. BOYER]
Mrs J. S. CAPSTICK [Jessie]
Mrs DICKIE [Jeanie / Jeannie]
and Mrs SNOW *
[* Should read as "SNOWDON" : Ellen THOMSON m. (1) Aaron Robert BLOMFELT
(2) m. 1891 - George Frederick SNOWDON.]
???
~ Lu
-
Brilliant work Lu! :D
I think the earlier details of Catherine's life are correct but I had my doubts that this second marriage was her.
The Otago Witness of 25 Sept 1858 has a passenger list with Geo. Thomson, wife and 5 children but doesn't name them.
Only two children are on the 1851 Scottish census - Margaret and "Cathren". The others who came to New Zealand were born after the census.
Also the First Church parish records in Dunedin say the marriage of Catherine Thomson to Thomas Benson in 1866 took place at the house of George Thomson, Pine Hill with the consent of her father George Thomson. The witnesses were William Warren and George Thomson. Thomas and George give their occupations as bushmen and William was a labourer.
Many thanks indeed
Hurworth
-
Hi Hurworth
I'm still working on this. ;D
Thanks for providing extra detail confirming Catherine's marriage to BENSON.
* Do you know if there were other children to George and Helen THOMSON, born in Scotland ?
~ Lu
-
Hi Lucy,
I have all I need on the Thomsons including the Scottish records but I didn't have a record of this Morement marriage which didn't seem to have been verified by anyone.
Because of the date of the Benson/Morement marriage I knew a marriage printout wasn't going to help as it was before the parents of the bride and groom were recorded, and with the confusion around Catherine Morement's name and age when she died I wasn't confident that the informant knew who her parents were, so I thought the ITM might help.
I was just missing this one piece of the puzzle.
-
Okay. ;D
-
I'd be very grateful if someone could get the details of this Intention to Marry notice from Wellington Archives sometime.
I'm more than convinced that Catherine Benson is not Catherine Thomson, but others still remain sceptical.
-
I'd be very grateful if someone could get the details of this Intention to Marry notice from Wellington Archives sometime.
Hi,
Our Moderator is the one that kindly goes to Wellington Archives, but is away for two weeks. There could be a backlog of look ups that might be pending on return before yours could be looked at. You could PM and alert to this thread. Hopefully, someone else might offer to go if they sight this thread.
Cheers
KHP
-
I'd be very grateful if someone could get the details of this Intention to Marry notice from Wellington Archives sometime.
Hi,
Our Moderator is the one that kindly goes to Wellington Archives, but is away for two weeks. There could be a backlog of look ups that might be pending on return before yours could be looked at. You could PM and alert to this thread. Hopefully, someone else might offer to go if they sight this thread.
Cheers
KHP
That's OK. After 146 years what's another month or two!
-
Hi again hurworth
I'm able to do this Archives look-up ... mid next week.
[Am reminded that I haven't yet responded to your earlier PM ... so will attend to that shortly. ;) ]
~ Lu
-
I'm able to do this Archives look-up ... mid next week.
~ Lu
Thought you might offer Lu ... :)
Cheers
KHP
-
Ha,ha KHP ;D
[The ITM books are huge and heavy - so a lookup of same, kinda doubles as a "gym workout"... and sometimes it's more interesting than walking the dog. ;) ]
-
Thank you very much. There's no hurry at all.
-
Ha,ha KHP ;D
[The ITM books are huge and heavy - so a lookup of same, kinda doubles as a "gym workout"... and sometimes it's more interesting than walking the dog. ;) ]
Curiosity as well .... I am sure the dog understands ;D
Cheers
KHP
-
Hi hurworth
Have sent you a PM ... and will add further info for MOREMENT / BENSON to this thread shortly.
~ Lu
-
Hi hurworth
Intention to Marry Notice - Quarter ending 31 March 1870 - Auckland District
Notice dated : 31 March 1870
William MOREMENT - bachelor - aged 35 years - occupation: Clerk - residing at Freeman's Bay (length of residency = 15 months), intends to marry
Catherine BENSON - spinster - aged 23 years - residing at Hepburn Street, Auckland (length of residency = 6 months)
at the Office of the Registrar of Marriages, Auckland.
Date of Certificate : 31 March 1870 (# 0264)
Clergy or Registrar : John Miller MAYLAND, Registrar.
--------
~ Lu
-
Thanks Lu - that's great.
For some reason I hadn't noticed your message come in. I hope you have shaken off your cold and are feeling better.
Clearly she is not the wrong age to be the Catherine Thomson from Liberton,Scotland / Pine Hill, Dunedin, New Zealand, so the informant at her death was mistaken, but it also makes her the right age to be the Australian-born daughter of John Benson and Catherine Ryan.
I really appreciate your help.
-
Following on from my post # 22 (on page 3) - re: the Will of Catherine MOREMENT - died 11 September 1925 at Auckland :
[My previous post contained info relating to some of the beneficiaries named in the Will - five of Catherine's nieces (the daughters of a George BENSON). ]
The remaining beneficiaries were >
* Emma CONNOLLY (niece)
* Elizabeth HAYES (niece)
* William HURST (nephew)
--------
These were all children born in Victoria, Australia, between 1870-75 to Elizabeth and William HIRST.
AUS Marriage -- William HIRST - Elizabeth BENSON - 1867 - Reg: VIC
[Death : Elizabeth HIRST - 86 yrs - at Melbourne VIC -- F: Jno (John) BENSON - M: Cath. RYAN]
* Emma HIRST (b. 1870) m. Michael CONNOLLY - 1903 - VIC
Emma CONNOLLY d. Carlton VIC 1941 - F: Wm HIRST - M: Eizabeth BENSON
* Elizabeth Ann HIRST (b. 1875) - m. Frederick HAYES- 1894 - VIC
Elizabeth Ann HAYES d. Prahran, VIC - 1939 - F: Wm HURST [sic] - M: Elizabeth Vincent [sic]
* William Henry HIRST (b. 1873) - died 1948 - Fitzroy VIC
F: Wm HIRST M: Elizabeth BENSON
---------------
~ Lu
-
Thank you very much Lu for working out who the other nieces and nephews are.
Between:
- her burial record saying she is Australian
- all the beneficiaries of her will being grandchildren of John Benson and Catherine Ryan
- John Benson and Catherine Ryan having a daughter called Catherine who is the same age as the woman who married William Morement (based on the intention to marry record)
it seems very unlikely that Mrs Morement is the daughter of George Thomson and Helen Leadbetter.
-
** Does the death notice for George THOMSON, suggest that Catherine is already deceased in 1897 ?
(Her brother James Alexander THOMSON had died in 1889).
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Evening Star" (Dunedin) - 13 February 1897 - page 2
THOMSON - George ... February 12th at his residence, Pine Hill ... beloved husband of Helen THOMSON and father of
Mrs DICK [this is Margaret formerly Mrs. BOYER]
Mrs J. S. CAPSTICK [Jessie]
Mrs DICKIE [Jeanie / Jeannie]
and Mrs SNOW *
[* Should read as "SNOWDON" : Ellen THOMSON m. (1) Aaron Robert BLOMFELT
(2) m. 1891 - George Frederick SNOWDON.]
???
~ Lu
Just to add some further information to this completed request, the NZ Cemeteries record for George's burial at Northern Cemetery has further details which match the details that would be on a death certificate. It states he has five female children alive at the time of his death. Their ages are 52, 47 (Catherine), 45, 41 and 38. So, although Catherine isn't mentioned in her father's death notice, it appears she is included on the death certificate.