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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: AustraliaJack on Monday 20 June 16 07:35 BST (UK)
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Hi I'm looking for infomation on a ancestor of mine known by John Narrow all I can find is a death cert
Narrow John 55 Unknown Unknown Swan River 2250 1899
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You must know more about him to have identified him to be your ancestor.
What other information do you have please?
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This is all I have apart from a family history card with the Name johnny Narriel
John narrow is the closest name within Perth
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Can you explain what a family history card is please.
And having found one with the name Johnny NARRIEL, why would you think that this person is your ancestor?.
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Johhny Narriel, page 16 http://www.nntt.gov.au/searchRegApps/NativeTitleClaims/RegistrationDecisionDocuments/2013/November%202013/wc2011_002%2019112013.pdf
http://www.noongar.org.au/ilua/Formal%20Notification%20Yued.pdf
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There are several West Australian Newspaper references for the name NARRIEL.
Most are stated as aboriginal. Was Johnny related to these people?
Sue
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The proper name is a native history card these was made by the government to keep tabs on everything a aboriginal family does birth death marriages health travel you name it unfortunely some of the older families didn't have the parents and the government had to rely on infomation from other aboriginals which was the case on my great great grandmothers 2nd husbands card which had the name johnny Narriel and Emma breasley.
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The proper name is a native history card these was made by the government to keep tabs on everything a aboriginal family does birth death marriages health travel you name it unfortunely some of the older families didn't have the parents and the government had to rely on infomation from other aboriginals which was the case on my great great grandmothers 2nd husbands card which had the name johnny Narriel and Emma breasley.
Hi there Jack,
Is that the same Emma Breasley who married Thomas BLAND in 1883?
Thomas BLAND marriage to Emma BRASELEY at Gingin 1883. Ref 5470 WA BDM online
Cheers, JM
could you find out more on this please
THOMAS BLAND, exp., late Reg. No. 2842, by P.C.
J. Hogan, at Pinjarrah, on Sth inst.; charged with
drunk and disorderly conduct, on premises of Mr. T.
Fawcett, Pinjarrah; also charged with neglecting his
work. Sentenced at Pinjarrah, on 9th inst., to 1
month's hard labor on each charge, cumulative.
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At WA BDM online index if you use the spelling “NARR” you get results for Narrioll/Narriel/Narrier (and of course many other surnames). And if you click on “Display” you can have up to 100 results on the one page.
So for example there is
a death registration for a Wilfred NARRIEL in 1907, Swan.
a death registration for a John NARROW, aged 55, Swan River, 1899 both parents given names listed as ‘unknown’
http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/
JM
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The surname seems to have changed to Narrier over time. Mostly around Moora.
I wonder if this is an early reference to 'Johnny' as Narriel, in 1865?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66013854
The SWALSC document shows him as Johnny Narrioll/Narriel/Narrier.
There is also some early births for NARRAH and NARREA (not much of a leap to write 'NARROW' for a white man - presumably pretty ignorant about Noongar - who was making out the death certificate, even from NARRIER).
Heaps of NARRIER family at Moora Cemetery
http://www.carnamah.com.au/moora-cemetery
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The surname seems to have changed to Narrier over time. Mostly around Moora.
I wonder if this is an early reference to 'Johnny' as Narriel, in 1865?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66013854
The SWALSC document shows him as Johnny Narrioll/Narriel/Narrier.
There is also some early births for NARRAH and NARREA (not much of a leap to write 'NARROW' for a white man - presumably pretty ignorant about Noongar - who was making out the death certificate, even from NARRIER).
Heaps of NARRIER family at Moora Cemetery
http://www.carnamah.com.au/moora-cemetery
Iv looked into this Narriel he was a man named George Jubytche ,Joobaitch born 1833 and died 1907 around the swan river Perth as a young man he was known as Narriel,narrel,Ngar-ra-jil and a police assistant he named changed somewhere around 1865 and 1875 to Jubyche,Joobaitch I'm 98% almost certain this could be also John Narriel the only connection being the name Narriel but researcher say they are different people and is my greatgreat grandmothers maiden name Mary Jane McKay nee Narriel of York Mary was born in 1863 York and nothing is known of her younger years until 1899 where she was married to at the time to my greatgreat grandfather Andrew Curenit in the online newspaper trove and then in 1901 at Guildford
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The proper name is a native history card these was made by the government to keep tabs on everything a aboriginal family does birth death marriages health travel you name it unfortunely some of the older families didn't have the parents and the government had to rely on infomation from other aboriginals which was the case on my great great grandmothers 2nd husbands card which had the name johnny Narriel and Emma breasley.
Hi there Jack,
Is that the same Emma Breasley who married Thomas BLAND in 1883?
Thomas BLAND marriage to Emma BRASELEY at Gingin 1883. Ref 5470 WA BDM online
Cheers, JM
could you find out more on this please
THOMAS BLAND, exp., late Reg. No. 2842, by P.C.
J. Hogan, at Pinjarrah, on Sth inst.; charged with
drunk and disorderly conduct, on premises of Mr. T.
Fawcett, Pinjarrah; also charged with neglecting his
work. Sentenced at Pinjarrah, on 9th inst., to 1
month's hard labor on each charge, cumulative.
Apparently this Emma breasley is the same person daughter of Charles breasley and a aboriginal woman named banyap
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I think Emma's husband Thos might have died young not long after they married. They had a child named Neabbie in 1883 in Gin Gin (shows her as Emma Brazeley). Maybe she took up with Johnny after that?
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Emma Brazley's husband Thomas Bland was buried in Gingin in 1885. He was a half caste and was also known as Thomas Bland Dundall, Tommy Doondale/Toondale.
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Please don't use the term half caste - it may have been in common usage back then but is offensive and unnecessary today. He was an Aboriginal man, plain and simple.
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No offence was intended of course but if we are dealing with genealogy then we have to be clear on what is correct and what is not. If I had referred to this man as an aboriginal there is no way to determine if he had full blood parents or mixed race parentage. I have seen some records refer to Thomas Bland as a convict which he quite clearly was not. By stipulating he was a half caste, it gives his descendants a clue to further his true heritage.
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Often the caste system was solely a judgement by a white man based on skin colour. Not very accurate in terms of genealogy. It was only in the 20th century that the definitions were made more formal and used on identity cards.
His other parent / grandparents may have been Caucasian, Eurasian or Asian. Impossible to know based on the term 'half caste'...so really not actually that helpful?
So he was an Aboriginal man, probably with only one parent who was Aboriginal, and possibly with at least one grandparent who was Aboriginal.
It is unlikely his birth was registered in any case.
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No. He was not an Aboriginal. He was as much a Caucasian man as an Aboriginal. We are talking about a man born soon after the colony of Western Australia began so no way was it a grandparent that was Thomas Bland's ancestor. He married Emma Brazley who also had a Caucasian father, the same father as my children's Great great grandmother. So it is very helpful to know he had a Caucasian parent as well as an Aboriginal one.
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I understand that some people may find 'half caste' a confronting expression when viewed from a 21st century perspective, however as family history buffs we recognise that our fellow RChatter is not intending to offend but to actually use the word to explain that there's both an Aboriginal heritage and a non-Aboriginal heritage involved. In the same way that words like 'bastard' or 'illegitimate birth' are no longer words used everyday at the dinnertable they are words we, as family history buffs, clearly undertand are descriptors that help in the search for our ancestors.
JM
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I think we need to remember that 19th century official records would likely use the expression. I know NSW ones do.
JM
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I think we need to remember that 19th century official records would likely use the expression. I know NSW ones do.
JM
Yes, and I acknowledged this in my original response - that it was a common term at the time.
However, terms such as N-word, Negroid, Mongoloid, and spastic were also widely used 'back in the day' in documents and newspapers. Would you feel comfortable using these terms to describe someone's ancestor in a passing remark?
I suspect you might present that information as a direct quote in quotation marks, or omit the word entirely, with an explanation of the modern equivalent. As you mentioned, you would suggest someone was illegitimate, not say they were a bastard child!
I am not suggesting there was any intention to cause offence. However, perhaps my equally well-intentioned feedback could have been accepted for what it was, rather than feeling the need to justify and defend the use of the term.
To say someone is 'part-Aboriginal' is just as offensive today as saying 'half-caste'. Talking about someone's 'true heritage' when Aboriginal people are the oldest surviving culture in the world??
My bad for thinking this was an opportunity to offer some cultural guidance here.
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Yes our 21st century eyes find offense in many words but we as family history buffs will need to be familiiar with these words to be able to offer help in any quest. simply because official records often used them. it does not mean we ought to be considered as using offensive words . it does indicate that we are striving to better comprehend officialdom in their own era/context
quotation marks around the words can help but are often omitted even by academics.
JM
Please don't use the term half caste - it may have been in common usage back then but is offensive and unnecessary today. He was an Aboriginal man, plain and simple.
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.... As you mentioned, you would suggest someone was illegitimate, not say they were a bastard child!
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Would I ? I doubt it. I doubt that I have ever referred to any individual person as illegitimate at any time in my life, not even in my many decades of family history. I am astounded that you have made that comment about me, you have never met me.
JM
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Suegar,
May I please ask if you have any official documents to help your quest?
JM
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majm,
Yes. I do have some official documents but always looking for more.
Sue
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:)
do you have the 1883 marriage ... and or the 1899 death .... I doubt there's much to be gleaned from either, so I am not suggesting you purchase these, but if you have copies ... what info is available from these
JM
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I am not suggesting there was any intention to cause offence. However, perhaps my equally well-intentioned feedback could have been accepted for what it was, rather than feeling the need to justify and defend the use of the term.
To say someone is 'part-Aboriginal' is just as offensive today as saying 'half-caste'. Talking about someone's 'true heritage' when Aboriginal people are the oldest surviving culture in the world??
My bad for thinking this was an opportunity to offer some cultural guidance here.
I didn't have a need to justify using the term half caste. I shouldn't have had to explain that on a genealogical forum it is necessary to use exactly what is on the document as any transcriber would agree. Thomas Bland had been recorded as a convict so it was important to correct that assumption because he was not as you say an Aboriginal nor was he a Caucasian. He was a half caste! And that fact makes a huge difference when researching his ancestry.
This is a genealogical forum so not the correct place to give cultural guidance and the assumption that I need guidance offends me. My children have Aboriginal ancestry so I am more than aware of the issues faced back then as well as today.
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Hi so after a year of more research i have find that john narrow is john naral
From the 1899 Guildford police occurrence book which supports the death cert.
his father is Narrall and his mother is Jigat this information comes from Fanny Balbuk one of the informants in Daisy Bates anthropology work in 1904 onwards
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:)
do you have the 1883 marriage ... and or the 1899 death .... I doubt there's much to be gleaned from either, so I am not suggesting you purchase these, but if you have copies ... what info is available from these
JM
Yes. I have the 1883 marriage and the burial record of Thomas Bland in 1885. I have PM'd you.
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Hi
I have replied to your PM
:)
JM
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In the same way that words like 'bastard' or 'illegitimate birth' are no longer words used everyday at the dinnertable they are words we, as family history buffs, clearly undertand are descriptors that help in the search for our ancestors.
JM
I was referring to your own example, above. And I used the term 'you' in a general sense, not meaning you specifically. (Of course in hindsight I should have said 'born out of wedlock' or 'born before marriage' would be said today rather than illegitimate or bastard.)
As long as terms are used 'in a genealogical context' and with no intent to offend, apparently it doesn't matter. I was merely building on your example.
In any case, since this thread has been marked as completed by the OP, perhaps it can be moved now.
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In the same way that words like 'bastard' or 'illegitimate birth' are no longer words used everyday at the dinnertable they are words we, as family history buffs, clearly undertand are descriptors that help in the search for our ancestors.
JM
I was referring to your own example, above. And I used the term 'you' in a general sense, not meaning you specifically. (Of course in hindsight I should have said 'born out of wedlock' or 'born before marriage' would be said today rather than illegitimate or bastard.)
As long as terms are used 'in a genealogical context' and with no intent to offend, apparently it doesn't matter. I was merely building on your example.
In any case, since this thread has been marked as completed by the OP, perhaps it can be moved now.
This post has undergone modification since its initial posting. I had read it firstly prior to the modifications.
I continue to understand that the use of 'you' in the two instances I have cited (both in the one sentence) are directed to me and are not referring to anyone else.
JM
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Hi I'm looking for infomation on a ancestor of mine known by John Narrow all I can find is a death cert
Narrow John 55 Unknown Unknown Swan River 2250 1899
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.... As you mentioned, you would suggest someone was illegitimate, not say they were a bastard child!
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Would I ? I doubt it. I doubt that I have ever referred to any individual person as illegitimate at any time in my life, not even in my many decades of family history. I am astounded that you have made that comment about me, you have never met me.
JM
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I continue to understand that the use of 'you' in the two instances I have cited (both in the one sentence) are directed to me and are not referring to anyone else.
JM
Well that is how you have read it but it wasn't my intent. Apologies for the poor phrasing.
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Thank you, mollipops, it is good to read your assurance.
JM.
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Thomas Bland was born in 1819 in Woodford Northamptonshire England, Thomas was married to Anne Wallis and had 5 children, Anne died in 1862. Following a crime Thomas was transported to Australia the day he got off the ship his sentence ended. Thomas remained in Australia marrying Emma brazeley having 2 more children Neaddie and Thomas. Thomas was my great great great grandad