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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: Mitch1957 on Friday 22 July 16 05:46 BST (UK)
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Hi to all..Searching for my GGG Grandfathers details and parents etc..
Robert Mitchell Born abt 1808 Forfarshire , Scotland.
My known proven detail of him is from Tasmania where he married Ann Crawford in 1866, they had 2 boys and 1 girl who sadly passed in infancy.
He passed away in 1880. I am his Tasmanian descendant.
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Hi Mitch,
I just had a quick look at the marriage and death certificates and ,as would be expected, very little information.
What were the names given to the children?
Sue
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Hello Sue..Wow..Quick reply..
Robert Mitchell born about 1808 no more information till marriage to Ann Crawford (her family immigrated from Tyrone, Ireland in 1854.). Married in Tasmania in 1866 (have certificate)
Children as follows
John Robert - 1867
Ann Christie -1868 (deceased at 4 y.o )
David - 1870 my G Grandfather
He was about 58 so he might have a earlier marriage ???
Regards and wishes
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/226508237
His death notice states specifically 70 years old in 1880 and requests “scotch papers please copy"
So it seems he still had contact with home.
Which, if any, of the names of the children appear on the CRAWFORD side- in Ann's family?
Sue
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Hi Sue..
Yes. Obit in paper says " Scots please copy"
Stated he was in his 71st year when he passed 12th Jan 1880
Have death certificate plus newspaper obit..
Ann Crawfords family as follows
Andrew and Elizabeth Crawford .. parents
Ann born 1830 Roberts wife
Matilda and Eliza sisters
From Tyrone Ireland
arrived Tasmania 1854..have boat details
Hope this helps
Thank you
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Hi,
When I look at the death notice, it says "in the 71st year of his life" This means, to me,at his next birthday he would attain/complete 71 years. Anyhow not important right now.
The reason I am asking about the names is that there are often clues to wider family within the names of children.
For instance, Christie may be significant as a family name somewhere in Robert's background.
I wonder if it would be a good idea to have your request moved to the Scottish board, Angus sub- board. There may be some experienced helpers there to assist.
The Australian helpers would be glad to have a go too I'm sure, but it seems to be the Scottish side of things you are seeking right now.
Shall ask for a move?
Sue
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Hi again Sue..
If moving to the Scottish board will help then great..
I am new to this site so still bouncing around.
Thank you again for all your help
Kind Regards
Mark Anthony Mitchell {tony}
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Hi..How do I move my question to the Scotland..Angus forum ??
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See the 'report to moderator' bottom right of your posts. Click, a box pops up, then type please move, to Scotland Angus.
Jamjar
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Thank you..
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Hi everone..Had posted in Beginners board , been guided to transfer to this section...
I am afte details of Robert Mitchell born about 1809 Forfarshire,Scotland he is my GG Granfather
My known details
Robert Mitchell married in Tasmania,Australia 1866 to Ann Crawford from Ireland
They had 3 children as follows
John David Mitchell born 1867
Ann Christie Mitchell born 1868 but died 4 years later
David Mitchell born 1870 who is my G Grandfather
Robert was about 57 and Ann was 36 when married
Ann and her family
Andrew and Elizabeth parents
Matilda and Liza her sisters came to Tasmania in 1854 from Tyrone, Ireland
Robert passed away in 1880 in his 71st year
"The Mercury" obit from tasmania, states this fact but also says "Scotch papers please copy"
I have death certificate..marriage certificate for Robert
Hope this will find someone who can help
Cheers
Mark Anthony Mitchell {Tony}
Topics merged and edited.
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Hi , Did your gg grandfather have a middle name or any siblings that you know of ?
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Hello Skippy...Thanks for your interest into my problem.
No middle name and no siblings that I can find here in Tasmania
I have marriage certificate stating "one" name only..Looks as though he signed his name and was listed as a farmer
I have death certificate with one name only as well (died of rheumatic gout)
Newspaper obit stated one name only
Youngest son was named David ..no middle name (have birth certificate)
Eldest son was John Robert (have birth cerficate)
Daughter was Ann Christie (have birth certificate) deceased at 4 y.o
On all signatures of GG Grandfather was signed just as Robert Mitchell
So this is the hurdle I face
Thanks again
Tony
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Hi Tony,
It's just that I found a Robert Mitchell on the familysearch site born 13/12/1810 in Dundee , Angus with parents David and Elizabeth nee Glen, the date of birth would fit and the name David would fit with the youngest child born to Robert and Ann, maybe clutching at straws but you never know.
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Hi Skippy..
Sounds good..
I have been on "Ancestry" and have found a one or two..
The hardest thing is what part/ county of Forfarshire/Angus
Are the families all together or do they split
Here in Tasmania my "Mitchell family all stayed mostly within one region as farmers.
Is Robert named after his father ?
Is John Robert first name come from Roberts father ?
I'm missing about 50 years or so of Roberts life and its like a jigsaw puzzle, but all the same colour
Hehehe
Thanks for your help and will chase it up
Cheers
Tony
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You are welcome ,
On Scotlandspeople website there are 6 Robert Mitchell births in Angus, but none for Forfar on the Old Parish records, it is a pay to view site, might be worth taking a look ,maybe family names will show up.
I too have a Robert Mitchell in my tree but mine was born in Glasgow in 1827, the only thing I have found on him is his birth but I won't give up, he can't hide forever, hopefully,
Good luck with your search
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Hi Skippy again..
You have at least the start with birth date.
I have the finish with my ancestor..
Luck to both of us.
Again thanks for your time and effort
Cheers
Tony
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The Robert MITCHELL who arrived on the Gilmore in 1832 with a seven year sentence was a native of Forfarshire and born c1808. He was tried in Perth in 1831 for Falsehood, Fraud & Wilful Imposition and had one previous conviction for rioting.
https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/?
Two lots of records - his precognition and trial papers can be obtained from the NRS. They will give you a quote and if the files are large it may be quite expensive but definitely worth it.
Search here for:
Phrase: Robert Mitchell
Year: from 1831, to 1831
http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/search.aspx
http://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/statistics-and-data/future-publications/ordering-records
I tried to find something in the Scottish newspapers that are available to me but no luck.
Debra :)
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Hi Debra...Thanks for your imput to my search..
Yes I found something on http://www.linc.tas.gov.au/
Its the same one as yours...
Had convict 1831-1832 hard to read
2nd Convict 1842 but died few years later
As stated earlier i am convinced he was born in 1810 based on newspaper article saying died in his 71st year 1880
But i will try to access what you have supplied , least it is closer
Update...that would make him 22years old when arrived in Tasmania...?
Thanks again Debra
Tony
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He sounds like a hopeful possibility, Debra.
You are a whiz with the Tasmanian records. I never have much success. ;D ;D
A read reveals he was a groom before conviction and seems to have huge number of tattoos of various types including Scottish soldiers, hearts, women and men in boxing attitiudes ::)
Sue
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In the moving of this topic to this board, some of the information from the previous thread ahs been lost.
Here again is the death notice of Robert MITCHELL in 1880
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/226506506
Sue
Topics now merged.
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Do Tassie marriage and death certificates show father/parent's names at the time Robert married and died?
(Linc site not working for me atm so have given up ::))
Robert was 57 when he married Ann? Was he married before?
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Do Tassie marriage and death certificates show father/parent's names at the time Robert married and died?
(Linc site not working for me atm so have given up ::))
Robert was 57 when he married Ann? Was he married before?
No, Ruskie. They have only scant details about the couple. OP has the certificate of marriage and death of Robert and I have seen them digitised online too.
Nothing to reveal really.
Sue
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Hi to Sue,Rusky,Debra,Jamjar,skippy and everyone
Managed to open convict file 1832 for robert mitchell
was tried in Perth court of Judiciary on the 12th April 1831 sentenced to 7 years
Arrived on the "Gilmore" in 1832 he was listed as 23
Tattoos being talked about, one in particular with the heart it has
E ? and RM
im trying to decipher the ?
Birth certificates of children show parents ,
i have copies of Rob and Anns marriage certificate from Tasmania
I still cannot find Roberts
no parents . just says over 21 years
Cheers everyone
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Tattoos being talked about, one in particular with the heart it has
E ? and RM
im trying to decipher the ?
Cheers everyone
E S. I would say.
Sue
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Hi everyone
Think He was released about 1838-1839..played up a bit he did..must of got sick of him
So now I have to track from 1838-1866 when he married
Then from conviction in 1831 in Perth , back to Forfarshire/Angus where he was born ?
Oh and the tatt ES and RM
RM would have to be robert mitchell
Cheers all
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Hi again
This site gave me heaps on convicts http://www.founders-storylines.com/mugsheets/
Robert was a groom plus house servant
cheers again
Tony
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Do Tassie marriage and death certificates show father/parent's names at the time Robert married and died?
(Linc site not working for me atm so have given up ::))
Robert was 57 when he married Ann? Was he married before?
No, Ruskie. They have only scant details about the couple. OP has the certificate of marriage and death of Robert and I have seen them digitised online too.
Nothing to reveal really.
Sue
Thank you Sue. :)
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It is worth looking for an account of his trial(s) in the Scottish papers. They sometimes give additional details.
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I'm a tad lost. ???
How did you come to believe that the convict and your Robert are one and the same?
Any relationship between the two Mitchell's on the Gilmore?
Jamjar
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He is just a possibility. Robert who died 1880 was "... native of Forfarshire, Scotland, in the 71st year of his age" and the convict Robert was aged 23 in 1831 and a native of Forfarshire.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/226506506
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON23-1-2 (M964 - M987)
I am interested in the 'pensioner' part of his death notice. Normally in that time period this referred to a military pensioner and the precognition index does say:
Accused: Robert Mitchell, soldier, 12th Regiment of Dragoons or Royal Lancers
Victim: Charles Mitchell, Brechin
If the convict is the same person then he would probably have been too young to be a pensioner - 12 years minimum service would put him at 11 years old when he enlisted if he was out by 1831. Perhaps he was telling a few porkies or perhaps he enlisted after his sentence?
I think it would be worth having a look at this record on Findmypast:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5H1-RQM
Debra :)
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The soldier on the link can't be the same person - he attested 13.2.1830 and was still serving in 1850's.
Annette
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Hi everyone..Thanks for all your help, I am listing what I,we Know..
Robert (abt 56) and Ann (36) married at "The Manse Of St.John Church of Scotland) in Tasmania 1866 His occupation-Farmer
Ann and family are from Tyrone.Ireland..Came out in 1854 as Immagrants
Anns sister Matilda was one witness ..all signed the registrar no "X"
Robert put his name with Matilda for 100 acres paying 58 pounds.... 1867
Address listed as "Summerlea" which is Longley area Sth of Hobart
Robert and Ann had three children, John Robert 1867
Ann Christie 1868 died at 4 years
David 1870
Robert died 1880 in his 71st year, residence Huon Rd,Longley-Pensioner- Native of Forfarshire -Scots papers please copy
Andrew Crawford (anns Dad) died 1877 - Huon Rd,Longley
Elizabeth-Anns mother died 1882 at Anns house-Huon Rd Longley
Ann died 1908 in her 78th year at he house-Huon Rd,Longley
When Matilda died, in her will she left to her family monies etc some minor land , another son was left 100 acres.
So from Say 1809-1810 till 1866 is what i"m searching
There was another mitchell on board the "Gilmore" his name was William
There were a couple of more Robert Mitchells later in 1846 in which one died about 1852 and the other was stuck on Norfolk Island
There was another who popped up in Tasmania but lived in Oatlands area well north of Hobart and died in the area
So if a convict, as we may thinking he was a Groom etc played up, tried in Perth,Scotland 1831. Age 23 years Shipped out on the "Gilmore" arriving 1832. Abt 1838 paroled/released -age abt 30 years
So have 26 years still missing in Tasmania
Or could he have been a dragoon instead say from his late 20's onwards
I found last night a ceremonial photo with a soldier on a horse with a sword dressed in red given to me years ago and they said heres your GG Grandfather but i fobbed it off..
Cheers
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So have 26 years still missing in Tasmania
Or could he have been a dragoon instead say from his late 20's onwards
I found last night a ceremonial photo with a soldier on a horse with a sword dressed in red given to me years ago and they said heres your GG Grandfather but i fobbed it off..
Cheers
I wonder whether you could post the image for us to see.
There may be some skilled enough to pick up clues from the uniform etc.
Here are a couple of links describing men who are "pensioners " of two different kinds at that time in Tasmania.
http://stors.tas.gov.au/store/exlibris1/storage/STORS/2012/06/14/file_7/au-7-0095-02507_1.pdf
(maybe use Ctrl. F to locate "pensioner" paragraph in pdf)
http://www.linc.tas.gov.au/family-history/Pages/Military.aspx
Sue
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Not the MITCHELL family, but might be useful to your research - CRAWFORD brothers James .......and Andrew? - sons of your Andrew and Ann.
Mercury 28 April 1903 p1
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12256214?
...death notice James CRAWFORD.....from home of sister Mrs MITCHELL Lower Longley 78 years
Will for James CRAWFORD d. 6 Apr 1903 Lower Longley.....beneficiaries nephews David MITCHELL and John Robert MITCHELL of Lower Longley...
Marriage 14 Jul 1897 #289 Hobart Andrew CRAWFORD 55yrs b. Tyrone, widowed 1896, 2 children living.
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Hi
Thanks for that
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Did my photo come through?
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Having trouble with uploading trying again
This was given to me by a new found relative stating this was gg father..never thought anything more of that till now
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Mitch, It might be worth posting that picture on the armed forces board as well for identification, and likelihood of it being Robert based on dates, ages etc. I may very well be wrong, but that uniform looks a bit "Napoleonic " in which case would be the wrong era to be Robert, however I realise that uniforms spanned several eras. This is just an impression. :)
If you do post on armed forces, make sure you mention that you have this thread running and provide a link to it.
It is not very clear, but that doesn't look like a photograph to me. It looks like some kind of illustration, so not likely to be a relative of yours unless he was of high standing. No colour photos back then either. :) Is it an illustration taken from a book?
That is not to say that your gggrandfather was not in this regiment. (but we know how some family members can sometimes get things wrong ;)).
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Hi Ruskie..
Yes, I thought it was something like that..
Just does'nt fit the profile ..
Like from the regiment straight to farming life..in Tasmania as well..hehehehe
Prob someone who passed it on then to me was pulling the other one..
Alls good though..
Thanks Wivenhoe for your kind imput..James Crawford was Ann's brother, i forgot about him
The whole family Crawfords came out on th "Moolon" from Tyrone,Ireland in 1854...Parents Andrew and Elizabeth both born abt 1800 ...Ann was 23 Matilda 15 Eliza 18 and James was on another docket age was 28, I have there boat details etc
I had tunnel vision on going after Robert..
So Wivenhoe again thankyou
To everyone who has commented and guided me I thank you one and all
It has been just a couple of days and we have achieved a hell of a lot
Thank you
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Hi Mitch,
You say there was another Mitchell on board the "Gilmore" named William, the Robert Mitchell I mentioned earlier with parents David and Elizabeth nee Glen had a brother William born 1809, the other siblings were Janet b 1815, David b 1807, and Elizabeth b 1812, just a thought.
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Hi Skippy
So you think David and Ann are his parents with William as a uncle ?
Will have a look..Im still a member of Ancestry
Based on Roberts court records it says connections unknown ?
Every little bit of information helps gather a profile
Again thank you
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Hi,
Have you managed to rule out the Robert Mitchell, single, born Edzell showing age 50 on the 1861 census? He's down as a Chelsea pensioner by that time having done 25 years service...I can't find him on the 1871 census nor a death for him in Angus, of course he could have died elsewhere.....any chance your man came out to Tasmania later in life?
Jen
EDIT: should have said this man was a trooper in the Lifeguards based in London.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_Guards_(United_Kingdom)
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No, not an uncle but Robert's brother.
If you go on familysearch you can see that David and Elizabeth Glen had 5 children.
David b 1807, William b 1809, Robert ( hopefully your g.g.grandfather ) b 13/12/1810,
Janet b 1815 and Elizabeth b 1812 .
If you say he died in 1880 in his 72nd year that would make his birth 1810 .
Oops , sorry just re read the thread you said 71st year .
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hi and good morning to everyone
to Jennywren001...I have Robert Marrying Ann in 1866 in Tasmania so your Robert and timeline will not compute, Thanks for your effort though..
To Skippy..I will check out Williams court details and family.
Sorry thought he was a uncle..
What i am going to do is print out a map of Angus/ Forfarshire, go through each robert born abt 1808-1810 and pinpoint each town .
I believe it was Forfarshire before being called Angus ??
Cheers
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Hi to everyone out there..
Going over my convict Robert Mitchell I found he had reddish hair.No one I know in the "Mitchells" have this feature..
And I found this see attachment
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Hi Mitch, I think you'll find that man is the one living in Edzell in 1861...have you looked at the wikipage on the 'Lifeguards'?
Jen
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Hi Jen...
What of this one..or maybe its an overlap ?
How many Robert Mitchell's in Forfarshire around 1808-1810 ... ??? ??? ??? ??? :o
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Oops... think those are Merchant Navy Records...the Edzell chap is the one attached...I think the navy guy is from Arbroath but I'd have to double check that...
Jen
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Double checked the Edzell man's military record - you could compare his signature below with that on your Grandfather's marriage certifcate...maybe lets you rule him in or out...
Jen
PS according to FindMyPast there was a Robert Mitchell tried at Perth and sentenced to seven years but he went to Australia on a ship other than the Gilmore - transcription only (boo)!
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Hi Jen...
Signature I think is not a match attached is GG Grandfathers signature..
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Not the same for sure - but those two signatures you've just posted look (to me at any rate) to be by the same person?
Jen
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Hi again..
I am trying to find if Robert came to Tassie at a later date ..say 1862 ? remembering he married in 1866 in Tassie
Attached are a couple of other Robert mitchell convicts..the 1832 is the one i thought was a maybe..the other two.1946's..one died in 1855 and the other was based in norfolk island..there is another but he was living in Middle of Tassie and married a Annie Farrell having a child named william..so no connections there..
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Hi Jen...
Signature I think is not a match attached is GG Grandfathers signature..
Hi Mitch - the Names Index page this is from has the same handwriting throughout so unfortunately it can't be his signature. Many of the registries there are hand written duplicates, but sometimes the originals are available as well.
M
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A few observations regarding the document certificate of marriage between Ann CRAWFORD and Robert MITCHELL. Signatures etc.
A glance the original shows the entire document is in the same hand, that would be the hand of officiating minister or registrar.
The letters are formed consistently throughout including the two names in the place where “signatures “ of parties are supposed to be. I believe it was common practice when dealing with parties of limited literacy to simply sign for them.
This hand is also the same across the whole page, that is on the other marriage records on the sheet.
In the case of Robert Mitchell, the minister, whose name is also Robert, has even done the little dash and double dot thing under the T of Robert MITCHELL in the same style as his own writing of his own name..
Also of note is that Robert MITCHELL seems adamant the there is only one L at the end of his name.
The scribe has at first written it with 2 L’s in the column headed “name” then attempted to erase the last L with a quick “finger swipe!
With all this in mind, I think relying on signatures for identification is not a valid pathway.
Sue
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Hi ..have found birth documents with roberts signature
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This signature looks to be a match with the one posted by Jen at #49.
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Hi
Thanks for all your efforts again everyone, i have attached a word doc with 2 of my roberts actual signatures to compare with what Jen found..
Was that "Lifeguards " or lightguards Jen
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It's a definite yes from me. ;D
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Not sure about the pdf file i attached
I have a robert mitchell convict record for the "Gilmore"
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Hi
Thanks for all your efforts again everyone, i have attached a word doc with 2 of my roberts actual signatures to compare with what Jen found..
Was that "Lifeguards " or lightguards Jen
I'd say yes, they all match
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seems we might be getting closer, Where did your signature come from Jen ?
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Hi Mitch,
The signature is from page two of his discharge papers of 1861(they can be found on FindMyPast). He was in the Life Guards - see wiki link in earlier post. If this is your man then he can be found in Edzell on the 1861 census along with his father Robert and brother James - the woman is his step mother. I think James and Robert's mother was a Helen Christison.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYJ3-3L2
You should obtain the father's death certifcate that should give you both his parents (son Robert may even have signed that document also). It might also list both his wives allowing you to confirm the name of Robert's mother.
Good luck with your research.
Jen
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I am noticing in the link you have posted, Jen, that MITCHELL is spelt MITCHEL.
In my reply #54, I noted that at the marriage of Robert to Ann CRAWFORD, the spelling is repeatedly with one L
Sue
ADDING
One wonders also about mother's maiden name CHRISTISON.
It seems not too far removed from little Ann's second given name CHRISTIE :-\
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Yes ,,true about the marriage certificate though i believe it had been recopied..
if you look at the birth certificates of the three kids its signed as mitchell with 2 "LL" s with actual signature
see attachment
as for Chrisitison sounds feasable for (Christie)
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Hi everyone..
Based on all your kind help I think we have cracked it..
Robert was in the 1st "Life Guards" Trooper No..573.. based in Middlesex for about 24 years..
I have his service records etc
Discharged 1861 and went back home to Parents Robert and Betty (Lamond) his brother James was in attendance who is 2 years younger..
Lived Edzell,Forfarshire,Scotland
Now, I have to find out how he got here to Tasmania..If I can verify that fact I can say 100 percent he's my GG Grandfather
Any ideas ???
I have tried Linc for passengers
Thanks again everyone
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Hi..
One hopefully last request..
Can anyone decypher this writing or meaning, may i can find out how Robert arrived in Tasmania..
He reired from service in 1861..
Thank you
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Mitch,
I will have a go at transcribing the snip, but what its meaning is I have no idea.
You have not given us the context or from what document is derives ???
Line 1. G 32,098 A 53/1 and 53 - July account Hobart Town and W. O.
Line 2. An application for an extra Pa day.
OR
Line 2. An application for an extra 1 s a day. (meaning one shilling)
Sue
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Hi Sue
Sorry..Its from his discharge papers..I'm thinking he is getting a lift to Hobart Town, Tasmania
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Well,
Maybe line 1. duly accepted Hobart Town and War Office.
I'm really guessing. Not a great help ::)
Sue
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Hi Sue
Was trying to figure how he got to Tasmania, So this does verify in a sense that he got a ride ..
Thanks Sue
Regards
Tony
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to Jennywren001...I have Robert Marrying Ann in 1866 in Tasmania so your Robert and timeline will not compute,
Why not? He was in Edzell in 1861 and can't be found in 1871. That is completely compatible with a marriage in Tasmania in 1866.
What i am going to do is print out a map of Angus/ Forfarshire, go through each robert born abt 1808-1810 and pinpoint each town .
See http://maps.nls.uk/counties/index.html#angus
I believe it was Forfarshire before being called Angus ??
The historic name of the county is Angus. During the 18th and 19th centuries it was known to officialdom as Forfarshire, from the name of the county town, Forfar. Following an Act of Parliament in 1928, the ancient name, Angus, was formally reinstated in 1929.
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Thanks for that 'Forfarian"
When Robert, my GG Grandfather Passed in 1880 the newspaper obit said he was from Forfarshire so my hunt earlier was on, getting confused about Angus..
Paper said for "Scots papers please copy"
He was listed as a pensioner , so hence i am where iam now, finding out he was a trooper in the 1st Life Guards,
He was from Edzell..
Cheers
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It could be mly acct (monthly account) Hobart Town
M
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Hi everyone..
To everyone who took the time to help me in my quest to find my heritage I like to thank you for your imput.
I have now found that my ancestors are from Forfarshire-Angus living in the towns of Edzell,Brechin,Montrose.
As found it was a signature that helped with the clue as well as a newspaper clipping from 1880 in Tasmania..
I am humbled that you took the time to help another person.
Thank you
Mark Anthony Mitchell..Born in Tasmania..Ancestors from Scotland
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Glad to help.
It seems like a happy and satisfying outcome for you ;D
Sue