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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tipperary => Topic started by: GerryLS on Saturday 06 August 16 21:42 BST (UK)
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I'm looking for information on a John Tobin born 6.11.1892 to an Edmond Tobin and Margaret Maher in Tipperary.
I'm trying to connect him to the Edmond Tobin and Margaret Ussher in Clonmel. Edmond Tobin was a blacksmith and almost all the records connected to him mention this. He had several children with his second wife Margaret Ussher in Clonmel between 1884 and 1891 and then one child in Tipperary in 1894. He died in Tipperary in 1895. But in 1892 a John Tobin was born in Tipperary to an Edmond Tobin blacksmith and Margaret Maher. I have the transcript of the birth registry and it's clearly Maher, but I can't find any marriage for an Edmond Tobin and Margaret Maher, nor any more children. I also have the transcript for the marriage of Edmond Tobin and Margaret Ussher and the Ussher does look like Maher when written so I wonder if it was a mistake or an illegitimate birth or what. There is no baptismal record for John or the other Tobin/Ussher child born in Tipperary though the others were all baptised at St Peter's and Paul's in Clonmel.
Does anyone one have any info about this family or about this John in particular? I can't find them on the 1901 or 1911 census, the family just disappears after Edmond's death in 1895, except for the son Edmond who died in WW1.
Thanks in advance.
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FB6P-6ZH
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7VQ-116
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Thanks, that's the birth certificate I have. And that military record is for someone born in 1875, so way too old to be my John.
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Hello and welcome
Are you saying you don't have Margaret and her children after Edmond's death in 1895? (apart from Edmond in the military).
It does look very possibly that it is a mistake. You are writing Margaret's surname as 'Ussher'. Does it appear as such on all documents?
If it were 'Usher' that would look more like 'Maher'.
What is the name of the child born in 1894?
Regards
Heywood
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Yes, I can't find anything after his death. It bounces between Ussher and Usher on the records. On the son Edmond's baptismal registry which I've seen it's definitely Ussher. The marriage record is harder to read but it's transcribed as Ussher. On the children's civil birth and baptismal it's Usher or Ussher. On Margaret's own birth certificate and that of her siblings it's Usher.
The child in 1894 in Tipperary is Bridget, born 5 Jul 1894 but registered 11 Sept.
I'm hoping someone has the children in their family tree and have traced them since their births. I can't find marriage certificates for any of them, but I found 2 death certificates for the ones that died in early childhood.
Thanks.
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Pushing things age-wise, but needs to be ruled out regardless, a widow Margaret Tobin of Old Road Tipperary married widower James Corbett of Bank Place Tipperary on 13 September 1921, her father was recorded as James Ussher, a labourer.
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The children
Bridget 1894
Edmond http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/4041342/TOBIN,%20EDWARD
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01i5h/
John 1892
Any more?
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nephew ?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Bruis/Shrough/1717863/
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If that will is correct, the death dates etc match. Why would he be leaving his money to Mrs Wrenahan, who I think is this woman
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Clonmel_East_Urban/Wellington_Street/817589/
Could Matgaret have died?
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Mary Wrenahan
http://soldierswills.nationalarchives.ie/reels/sw/TobinE_E101555.pdf
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Cool, you found the Wrenahan, I've been looking for her. Maybe she raised him after his father died. Will see if I can find them on the 1901 census.
I kind of wonder if maybe Margaret had to send the children to family and friends in order to work. She was a Servant before their marriage, not something you can do easily with five young kids in tow. I found a John Tobin of the right age living with Catherine Tobin in Tipperary or Waterford (can't remember now) in 1901 and 1911 who is listed as his aunt. I can trace a cousin named Catherine of the right age connected to John's father Edmond.
Margaret Ussher Tobin's father was James, so that might be here. Wondered what happened between 1895 and 1921.
Edmond and Margaret Ussher Tobin's children were
1894 Bridget
1892 John?
1891 Margaret
1889 Edmond/Edward died in WW1
1887 Mary
1885 Catherine baptised Bridget, died at 10 months
1886 James died at 1 year
From James to Margaret they lived in Clonmel and all kids were baptised at St Peters and Pauls.
You guys are great, will chase up some of these leads.
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Mary Wrenahan
http://soldierswills.nationalarchives.ie/reels/sw/TobinE_E101555.pdf
Possibly an Aunt Mary through a deceased Uncle John:
1. Mary Leahy, daughter of Thomas Leahy, married John Usher, son of James Usher, in Clonmel in 1883;
2. Widow Mary Usher, daughter of Thomas Leahy, married Michael Renehan in Clonmel in 1898.
Family in 1901:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Clonmel_East_Urban/Wellington_Street/1710724/
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1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Clonmel_East_Urban/Wellington_Street/1710724/
he married Mary Maher is this another mistranscription for Ussher ?
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/7069a46944994
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yes, that might be it, I just found the family in 1901 as well.
Margaret Ussher Tobin might have died, there are a lot of Margaret Tobins in Tipperary and Waterford that die after 1895, but no one that is obviously her.
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Good finds everybody :)
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Oh, man, that might be it. On her marriage certificate to Edmond Tobin it does look like it's signed as Mary, I thought maybe it was a squiggly Marg. But I can't tell if it's the registrar that signed the name or if it's Mary/Margaret.
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On Roots Ireland I can't find a Renehan/Maher marriage but I can find a Renehan/Usher marriage in 1898 Clonmel. And she's a Widow and a Cook. But her father's listed as Thomas Leahy. So I don't think it's my Margaret as her father was James Usher. So it might be a SIL of Margaret married to one of her deceased brothers James or Michael.
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See reply 12, Mary is Mary Leahy Usher Renehan, not Margaret who married Edmond Tobin.
Johanna Renihan in the 1901 census return for house 7 Wellington Street was born on 24 July 1899 to parents Michael Renehan and Mary Leahy.
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No, it seems to be John Usher son of James married Maria Leahey daughter of Thomas in 1883 Clonmel. He is the brother of Margaret but born much later in 1862 so I hadn't found him before.
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... No, it seems to be John Usher son of James married Maria Leahey daughter of Thomas in 1883 Clonmel ...
Posted at reply #12.
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Sorry, so much info flying about. At least we answered who Mary Wrenahan was from the will. I know so much about this family now, but what happened after Edmond died.
Nice that there's been another transcription mistake of Maher/Usher, that makes the John I found more likely to be related.
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One of the irritations of an iPad is to have a reply all typed out only to have it disappear when you go to double check something.
Edmond and Margaret Ussher Tobin's children were
1894 Bridget
1892 John?
1891 Margaret
1889 Edmond/Edward died in WW1
1887 Mary
1885 Catherine baptised Bridget, died at 10 months
1886 James died at 1 year
A few thoughts
Why didn't Edward name one of his siblings in his will, had he lost touch with them to such an extant he didn't know where they lived, if his aunt played an important part in his life why didn't he know how to spell her name?
In 1901 we are looking for Bridget 7, John 9, Margaret 10, Edward 12, Mary 16.
and the thinking now is the family is split up.
The John dathai found is a strong possible
nephew ?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Bruis/Shrough/1717863/
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Yes, I think this is the closest I've found to finding him. Edmond Tobin's brother had a daughter called Catherine born around the right time, so they would have actually been cousins, but the age difference is so much that aunt and nephew makes sense.
I've also found a Margaret Tobin as a servant in 1901 and 1911 for the same family that is about the right age for the Margaret I've been looking at.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Seskinan/Tooraneena/664459/
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Yes, I think this is the closest I've found to finding him. Edmond Tobin's brother had a daughter called Catherine born around the right time, so they would have actually been cousins, but the age difference is so much that aunt and nephew makes sense.
I've also found a Margaret Tobin as a servant in 1901 and 1911 for the same family that is about the right age for the Margaret I've been looking at.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Seskinan/Tooraneena/664459/
The problem with that is she is single, do you know if she was born Waterford?
What about Edwards Army record, have you looked for that, I know a lot were lost during WWII but if it could be found in might give useful clues?
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One of the irritations of an iPad is to have a reply all typed out only to have it disappear when you go to double check something.
Sorry to interrupt - yes it is irritating. I have started to copy my messages, if there is a lot if information, then if (when) I lose it, I can just paste it back again.
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She was born in Waterford, well baptised in Kilsheelan 1854. I was thinking single as in not married, didn't see there was a widow status. I don't see anyone listed as a widow that fits, that has any children with her of the right age.
I can't find Edward's service record, only things afterwards about his death.
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One of the irritations of an iPad is to have a reply all typed out only to have it disappear when you go to double check something.
Sorry to interrupt - yes it is irritating. I have started to copy my messages, if there is a lot if information, then if (when) I lose it, I can just paste it back again.
I've done that a few times but usually forget, when I started using the internet I used to write up my replies in Word and paste over, might have to start do the same using 'Note' on the iPad
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She was born in Waterford, well baptised in Kilsheelan 1854. I was thinking single as in not married, didn't see there was a widow status. I don't see anyone listed as a widow that fits, that has any children with her of the right age.
I can't find Edward's service record, only things afterwards about his death.
I was just thinking you would expect a Parish Priest to get such detail correct, but it could be her.
Pity about the service record.
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Elen Flynn here seems to be a foster mother
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Graignagower/Curraghateskin/1769233/
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There's at least 3 different Edmond Tobin's born in Waterford listed as boarder where his occupation is scholar/ yard boy or servant.
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Thanks all for your help, but I have now proven that this John Tobin is not the one I'm looking for. I have received the 1939 census results for my John in Glasgow and his date of birth is 15 May 1895.
So back to the drawing board.
If anyone wants any info on this family, I have traced it back quite a way so could pass on my info.
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Oh dear after all your hard work.
So you have a John Tobin born 15 May 1895.
Is the father still Edmond/Edward, I assume you got this from his marriage cert.
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I've put this on a thread on the main board but here's the info I have. Unfortunately he died when my father-in-law was only 9 so he doesn't remember anything about him except some stories from his mother.
I've hit a brick wall. I'm looking for some proof that my John Joseph Tobin born 15 May 1895 was born in Ireland. I only have his son's stories from his mother that give me this info. One son says he was from the Thurles or Clonmel area of Tipperary and another says Kilkenny. I checked all the John Tobin's born in Ireland between the end of 1894 to the end of 1895, none match.
He married Emily Curran in Glasgow in 1930 and died in 1947. I have found him on the 1939 census but I can't find any information about him before 1930.
Both his marriage and death certificates say his father was Edward Tobin (blacksmith) and his mother was Margaret Dwyer. I can't find a marriage certificate for them in Ireland or anywhere else (checked Ancestry, Family Search, Roots Ireland, Find my Past, Scotland's People and a few other sites). I can't find their death certificates for certain either. They are both listed as deceased on John's marriage certificate so before 1930. I can't find these three names together on the 1901 or 1911 Irish censuses.
He supposedly served in WW1 and was wounded and stayed in a hospital in Belgium but I can't find any service records to match him. He also was said to have twin brothers who also served and died in France. Not sure on their names, so can't find them either. The fourteen/nineteen society couldn't find a match either.
Any ideas of where I can look next? I've exhausted all the avenues I can think of.
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I tried a few searches but not surprising came up with nothing.
Did you follow this up?
I don't know if you're still doing this, but I'm looking for information on Tobins from Clonmel. I know about Edward Tobin who died at Ypres, but I'm looking for information on a John Joseph Tobin. I believe he served in France and was wounded and sent to a Belgian hospital. He was born around 1892. Sorry that's all I know.
His records are on Findmypast here.
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007282772%2f00189&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7282772%2f18%2f188
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Yeah, double checked it tonight. He lived and had family in the US which I'm sure someone would have remembered. It also had a note that his DOB was July 1890. Thanks.
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Just an update: I've gotten no further with this family, but my other half had his application for registering his birth as an Irish foreign birth on the basis of the information I have been able to find. Guess the Irish government isn't as picky as myself as a genealogist as I'm not 100% I've got the right family.
Thanks for all your help.
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Thanks for letting us know.
Images of Certs have come online since you first posted so I thought I'd have a look for an Edmond Tobin blacksmith death between 1895 and 1930. I only found one. It's in 1895 but unless his wife was a good bit younger that him he looks unlikely.
Edmond Tobin aged 62, Henry St. Tipperary, Smith, wife Margaret.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1895/05930/4684378.pdf
Oh that's the Edmond that was married to Margaret Usher
Daughter Bridger born 1894
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1894/02249/1846477.pdf
She got married again in 1921.
Sorry going around in circles.
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Both of those are the right Edmond. His 2nd wife Margaret Usher was about 20 years younger than him. Nice to see the actual certificates.
Thanks.