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Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: Swainys Boy on Wednesday 17 August 16 22:09 BST (UK)

Title: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: Swainys Boy on Wednesday 17 August 16 22:09 BST (UK)
Hi,

I have a very nice tipstaff but no one seems to recognise the coat of Arms. Can you help?

Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: KGarrad on Wednesday 17 August 16 22:15 BST (UK)
The ox over water is the coat-of-arms of Oxford City.

Maybe Oxford police?
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: ScouseBoy on Wednesday 17 August 16 22:38 BST (UK)
University of Oxford.
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: KGarrad on Wednesday 17 August 16 22:54 BST (UK)
University of Oxford.
??? Nothing like it!

The arms of the University of Oxford feature an open book, between 3 crowns, on a blue background.

Or, if you prefer the heraldic blazon:
Azure, upon a book open proper, leathered gules, garnished or, having on the dexter side seven seals of the last, the words DOMINVS ILLVMINATIO MEA; all between three open crowns, two and one, or.

Rather than guessing (invariably wrong!), try doing a bit of research.
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: Swainys Boy on Wednesday 17 August 16 23:12 BST (UK)
Thank you! Mentioning Oxford narrows things down a bit but googling images for Oxford does not show anything with three anchors and two crowns.  :-\
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: KGarrad on Thursday 18 August 16 06:42 BST (UK)
I am coming up blank, too! :-\

I can't find any other Civic Heraldry that uses the ox over water (a ford!); so I am confident it relates to Oxford somehow.

Could the anchors somehow relate to a River Authority? Or maybe River Police?

I have searched online, but nothing is coming up. Sorry!
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: ScouseBoy on Thursday 18 August 16 09:57 BST (UK)
University of Oxford.
??? Nothing like it!

The arms of the University of Oxford feature an open book, between 3 crowns, on a blue background.

Or, if you prefer the heraldic blazon:
Azure, upon a book open proper, leathered gules, garnished or, having on the dexter side seven seals of the last, the words DOMINVS ILLVMINATIO MEA; all between three open crowns, two and one, or.

Rather than guessing (invariably wrong!), try doing a bit of research.
          I did some research   and I came up with a lead to Oxford University.

Research on Wikipedia  can often produce incorrect details, I find.
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: Swainys Boy on Thursday 18 August 16 11:19 BST (UK)
Thank you both for your efforts it is much appreciated! I am a complete novice to Heraldry and such like although I am now taking much more interest in the subject since my Father passed away last December. He was a big collector of police memorabilia, and heraldry etc is used in so many ways in the forces. You are welcome to take a look at a site I have dedicated to him, found here http://alan.swain.me.uk/

The mention of river police is a good suggestion as there being 'anchors' in the coat of arms although I am not sure of the use of crowns. I did find three crowns relating to the Bishop of Oxford. Was/is there a Bishops Palace like we have here in Peterborough? A Church Wardens tipstaff? Cathedral related??

Universities, yes, colleges, how many of them are there and have any been sold in the past or ceased to exist?

Dating the tipstaff at a very rough guess, I'd put it at say 1850 possibly earlier. Universities did indeed use them surprisingly, as I have one of my fathers for Cambridge, reference number 15 here... http://alan.swain.me.uk/truncheons.htm

Hopefully some of the ideas here will get viewers of this thread to chip in. The Tipstaff certainly is a genuine item and someone somewhere would know just what it was used for and where. Thanks again!

Laurence.

Edit: Just a little more info, the coat of arms is on a 'silver' curved disc mounted on the wooden baton, just incase one wonders what the black stains are.
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 18 August 16 11:25 BST (UK)
I also did some googling and failed to find anything similar.

University of Oxford.
??? Nothing like it!

The arms of the University of Oxford feature an open book, between 3 crowns, on a blue background.

Or, if you prefer the heraldic blazon:
Azure, upon a book open proper, leathered gules, garnished or, having on the dexter side seven seals of the last, the words DOMINVS ILLVMINATIO MEA; all between three open crowns, two and one, or.

Rather than guessing (invariably wrong!), try doing a bit of research.
          I did some research   and I came up with a lead to Oxford University.

Research on Wikipedia  can often produce incorrect details, I find.

Scouseboy, I'm afraid I find this difficult to believe, but if you would care to provide a link to the research you did which led you to Oxford University, I will be very happy to apologise for doubting you, and congratulate you for helping to answer this query.  ;D
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: ScouseBoy on Thursday 18 August 16 12:24 BST (UK)
Ruskie, Thank you for your PM



I  wonder whether the Crown  and device  on the top  give any clues?

Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: ScouseBoy on Thursday 18 August 16 13:17 BST (UK)
Hi,

I have a very nice tipstaff but no one seems to recognise the coat of Arms. Can you help?

It may have been the symbol of office  held by the Town Clerk  of the City of Oxford.

Visit a City museum   and look   for  Mace and other  symbols of office.
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: Treetotal on Thursday 18 August 16 13:39 BST (UK)
Hi and welcome to Rootschat.

What a lovely thing to have and even more so as it is a family heirloom. In common with others, I failed to find a match even using Google image recognition....which only brought up your image as a match  :-\

Maybe this person will able to shed some light on it... hopefully:

http://www.truncheon.org.uk/

Carol
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 18 August 16 13:41 BST (UK)
Ruskie, Thank you for your PM

ScouseBoy. I think you are mistaken. I did not send you a PM.

ScouseBoy, you said that you did some research which led you to Oxford University. I asked you to elaborate. Could you do that please?

Now you say:


It may have been the symbol of office  held by the Town Clerk  of the City of Oxford.

Visit a City museum   and look   for  Mace and other  symbols of office.

Which is it then? Oxford University or Town Clerk?

Do you really think that suggesting that Laurence visits a city museum to look at their mace will help him discover the meaning of his Coat of Arms? ::)

Added: Carol, that link looks like it might be very useful.
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: KGarrad on Thursday 18 August 16 13:48 BST (UK)
It can't be from the City of Oxford, as the arms are wrong.

Webster's College Dictionary says:
tip•staff (ˈtɪpˌstæf, -ˌstɑf)

n., pl. -staves (-ˌsteɪvz)
-staffs.
1. an attendant or crier in a court of law.
2. a staff tipped with metal, formerly carried as a badge of office, as by a constable.
3. any official who carried such a staff.

Other dictionaries say much the same.
That was why I suggested the Oxford City Police?
The addition of the anchors makes me think it might have been the River Authority, or River Police?
The coronets (NB not crowns!) look to me like civic coronets? But as they are a charge on the field, rather than a crest, they could mean almost anything?! ::)

I tried all the colleges at Oxford University, but none of their Arms are even close.

In summary, I would say it's a civic office, connected to Oxford City.
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: ScouseBoy on Thursday 18 August 16 13:50 BST (UK)
Anchors   do not necessarily signify  water associations.   They  can be symbolic  of other things  in heraldry.
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: Treetotal on Thursday 18 August 16 13:55 BST (UK)
There are no anchor chains around the anchors...not sure that is relevant though....I have also seen that the anchor can represent salvation:

http://www.familytreesandcrests.com/heraldry-symbols.htm

Carol
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: Swainys Boy on Thursday 18 August 16 14:04 BST (UK)
Hi,

I have a very nice tipstaff but no one seems to recognise the coat of Arms. Can you help?

It may have been the symbol of office  held by the Town Clerk  of the City of Oxford.

Visit a City museum   and look   for  Mace and other  symbols of office.

Thanks Scouseboy, this is a good suggestion being a symbol of office held by the town clerk and this is exactly what these items represents, it got me thinking because in relation to the many other truncheons and tipstaffs that I have, this one is very light in its weight. I remember thinking that it would not have lasted very long in its work and use as a constables tipstaff knowing the rough and tumbles of such duties. Quite possibly this may well have been placed on a stand on a desktop, who knows? Perhaps even a University Principals office?  ;D

As far as visiting a museum or any archives, I have done just that and makes a great day out. I was only in the London Metropolitan Archives last Saturday researching another tipstaff for ChristChurch Surrey which is now Southwark.

Carol... It is not exactly a family heirloom although I did inherit it from Dad, where he got it from goodness knows. The owner of the website http://www.truncheon.org.uk/ would possibly know where it came from but he also does not know the coat of Arms, he and my Father were very best of friends. Thanks for your input though. As a matter of further interest regarding heraldry etc the websites owner has writtern a book with many fine illustrations, very well worth a read!

Cheers All.
Laurence
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: ScouseBoy on Thursday 18 August 16 14:07 BST (UK)
There is an Association of Town Clerks.    See if their web site gives any  historical information.

Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: Swainys Boy on Thursday 18 August 16 14:20 BST (UK)
It can't be from the City of Oxford, as the arms are wrong.

Webster's College Dictionary says:
tip•staff (ˈtɪpˌstæf, -ˌstɑf)

n., pl. -staves (-ˌsteɪvz)
-staffs.
1. an attendant or crier in a court of law.
2. a staff tipped with metal, formerly carried as a badge of office, as by a constable.
3. any official who carried such a staff.

Other dictionaries say much the same.
That was why I suggested the Oxford City Police?
The addition of the anchors makes me think it might have been the River Authority, or River Police?
The coronets (NB not crowns!) look to me like civic coronets? But as they are a charge on the field, rather than a crest, they could mean almost anything?! ::)

I tried all the colleges at Oxford University, but none of their Arms are even close.

In summary, I would say it's a civic office, connected to Oxford City.

KGarrard... Thanks very much for your input, I very much like your research! however... I am starting to sway away from the idea that it is even a tipstaff as such and used by a representative of the law, purely because of the delicate construction of it. It is an easy item to snatch and snap in half in the face of an offender, it is in no way a sturdy enough object for the use that I originally thought, I could be very wrong though. I like the idea put forward by Scouseboy in that "It may have been the symbol of office  held by the Town Clerk  of the City of Oxford." and that it may well have served its life as a desktop symbol of authority object.

Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: JenB on Thursday 18 August 16 14:27 BST (UK)
I like the idea put forward by Scouseboy in that "It may have been the symbol of office  held by the Town Clerk  of the City of Oxford." and that it may well have served its life as a desktop symbol of authority object.

In that case perhaps it would be worth contacting the Museum of Oxford, at Oxford Town Hall.
They have regalia associated with Oxford and would surely be interested and able to identify the crest?
https://www.oxford.gov.uk/museumofoxford
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: Swainys Boy on Thursday 18 August 16 14:36 BST (UK)
I like the idea put forward by Scouseboy in that "It may have been the symbol of office  held by the Town Clerk  of the City of Oxford." and that it may well have served its life as a desktop symbol of authority object.

In that case perhaps it would be worth contacting the Museum of Oxford, at Oxford Town Hall.
They have regalia associated with Oxford and would surely be interested and able to identify the crest?
https://www.oxford.gov.uk/museumofoxford

Thank you Jen... this is a good suggestion. Ideally they could be shown this thread. I'll email them. Cheers. Laurence.
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: KGarrad on Thursday 18 August 16 14:42 BST (UK)
I think you misunderstand?
Tipstaffs were NOT truncheons! ;D They weren't intended to be used to clobber someone! ;D
They were ceremonial or decorative - a bit like the Black Rod in Parliament?

As I said, the Arms are just wrong for Oxford City, but almost certainly a civic body connected to the City of Oxford?

The Museum would be a good call.
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 18 August 16 14:57 BST (UK)
I admit to knowing nothing about this subject, but as the Coat of Arms seems difficult to identify, could it possibly have been an engraver's interpretation of a description such as KGarrad's example:

Azure, upon a book open proper, leathered gules, garnished or, having on the dexter side seven seals of the last, the words DOMINVS ILLVMINATIO MEA; all between three open crowns, two and one, or.

May I just add that I would not propose asking the Museum of Oxford to read this thread as it may influence them or lead them in the wrong direction. I'm sure they have better things to do than wade through our often irrelevant musings. I think better to just send the photo. :)
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: Swainys Boy on Thursday 18 August 16 15:34 BST (UK)
...Just had a beer and brain is now thinking. Is it possible that the coat of arms on this tipstaff is a personal coat of arms rather than that of an official office? I was looking through a very long list of mayors for Oxford, and there is many of them, and wondered if it could belong to one of them? The coa looks to be very simple in nature. Possibly a mayor had it made for his own personal use? Just a thought.
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: KGarrad on Thursday 18 August 16 15:42 BST (UK)
I've done umpteen searches for "three anchors" and "two coronets" - no hits!
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: Swainys Boy on Thursday 18 August 16 15:45 BST (UK)
I've done umpteen searches for "three anchors" and "two coronets" - no hits!

Thanks KGarrad... It really is much appreciated! I have also done likewise but not with the expert knowledge that you have.
Title: Re: Unidentified Tipstaff Coat of Arms
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 18 August 16 23:34 BST (UK)
...Just had a beer and brain is now thinking. Is it possible that the coat of arms on this tipstaff is a personal coat of arms rather than that of an official office? I was looking through a very long list of mayors for Oxford, and there is many of them, and wondered if it could belong to one of them? The coa looks to be very simple in nature. Possibly a mayor had it made for his own personal use? Just a thought.

Have you come across any other tipstaffs which have personal coats of arms? If so, then it could be an avenue to explore further. It expands the search of course.  :)

I agree that the engraving does look 'primitive'. :)