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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Norfolk => England => Norfolk Lookup Requests => Topic started by: cardinalcanary on Thursday 25 August 16 20:34 BST (UK)
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Hello
I am trying to find info about a Mary Lambert who married John Cannon of Whitechapel at Shouldham Thorpe on 12 July 1809.
I can't find a birth record for her. Assuming she was at least 18 when she married, she would have been born around 1791 or earlier.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Stephen
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Hi how about this?
Mary Lambird- Baptised 26 Feb 1787
Father-William
Mother - Rose
Shouldham Thorpe
From Norfolk Baptisms FindMyPast
The marriage you stated was by licence and her name spelled Lambart, so possibilities for different spellings of the surname perhaps.
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Hi Vinpip
That is a new spelling variant but highly plausible. Thanks
I can just hear someone saying Lambert in a Norfolk accent and it sounding like Lambird.
I will see where that info takes me.
Stephen
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You're welcome :) hope it's of some use.
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I am fairly confdent that John Cannon iof Whitechapel is my GGGGF and know his wife was called Mary.
Having had help fndinding the marriage, I am getting more confident that Mary Lambert/Lambard/Lambird is my GGGGM.
Bit more work to do to be fully satisfied but its getting more and more likely.
Thanks
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Here is the marriage of William Lambard and Rose Sanders
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ib9/
and the marriage bond of John Cannon and Mary
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01iba/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ibb/
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Thanks Yokel that's great info. I have also now tracked down Mary's siblings.
Interesting that Mary's mother Rose was a widow when she married William. I assume William was her father but need to check dates.
I note in surnames database that Lambird is a dialectal variation of Lambert and is sometimes associated with Norfolk and Lincolnshire. Also note that the name is associated with Flemish Weavers.
This has sparked my imagination of course.
What would a Norfolk girl Mary be doing with an East End boy John Cannon? What links Norfolk and the East End of London at the end of the 17th century? The weaving trade was tailing off in Norfolk then but was thriving in Spitalfields and the East End.
Was John Cannon originally from Norfolk where he met Mary Lambird before moving to the East End to pursue his trade if shoemaker/cordwain? It's not weaving but it is in the filed of clothing.
I have yet to find a record for John Cannon's birth in the East End. The 1841 census implies he was born out of county but still in England or Wales. I will see if there are any John Cannon's born in Norfolk that are about the right age.
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BURIALS;
Virgin Mary, Shouldham Thorpe;
ROBERT Lambert, 10 Sept 1801, Infant
ROBERT Lambert, 20 April 1806 age 2
Both Children of Willm/Rose
ROSE Lambert, 21 Jan 1808, Wife of Willm, age 47 (Birth c 1761)****
BURIAL;
Same Church
Martha SAUNDERS, 6 June 1782, Daug of ROSE Saunders, Widow
MARRIAGE;
28 Oct 1780, St Mary Magdalen, Wiggenhall St Mary Magdalen
John SAUNDERS Single man
Rose CARTER Single woman
Looks good as there is a Burial same Church, 12 April 1781 for a JOHN Saunders (no age given)
ROSE Carter was Baptised 24 May 1761 Virgin Mary, Shouldham Thorpe to WILLM/MARY
Siblings;
STEPHEN 1759/STEPHEN 1763/EDWD 1766/ANN 1768
All above on FreeREG (I am still using old site as its easier to search)
Trish :)
EDIT, I just realised a Robert and Frances Carter were witnesses to the Marriage of William Lambard and Rose Sanders!
Not sure where Frances Carter fits in but she seems to marry William EASTER 01 May 1787
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A FRANCS Carter, Female was Bapt 1759 to JOHN/SARAH. So she may be a Cousin of Rose.
Cant find Burials for Roses Parents in Shouldham so maybe they moved?
EDIT, may be related;
STEPHEN Carter Baptised 19 Apr 1772 Shouldham, Mother MARY Carter, Widow
Yes looks good as a WILLIAM Carter is Buried Shouldham 15 March 1772
With all those young Children it is likely Mary remarried.
Likely Marriage;
28 Nov 1774, Virgin Mary, Shouldham Thorpe
James BOUGHTON Bachelor to Mary CARTER Widow
There is a Mary BOUGHTON Buried Shouldham 27 Aug 1797, no other detail given,
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Thanks Trish, you have been very busy on my behalf.
How interesting that my Mum's ancestors may have been Carters as well as my Dads (but in completely different parts of the country).
Lots of leads to work through.
Thanks again.
Stephen (Carter)
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Your welcome Stephen :)
Any queries just add to this thread.
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Here is the marriage of William Lambard and Rose Sanders
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ib9/
and the marriage bond of John Cannon and Mary
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01iba/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ibb/
Hi Yokel
I have not really come across marriage bonds before. What were they for?
Thanks
Stephen
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Hi Stephen
A bit of a cop out ;)
have a read here
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/reflib-lexicon.php?letter=M&lang=EN&input_form=0
yokel
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Thanks Yokel
Not a cop out at all. Very useful info and good for future reference.
Now I know what bonds, allegations and licences are, I can hazard a guess as to the why.
If John Cannon's shoemaker business in Whitechapel was booming, I can't imagine that he could afford the time to travel backwards and forwards to Norfolk for three weekends in a row to hear the banns read.
Now to find out if John originated in Norfolk and how he ended up marrying a girl from a tiny village a long way from where he lived in East London.
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Here's a puzzle. My John Cannon lived in Whitechapel in the 1841 census and was 50 years old at the time. That would make his birth 1791.
John Cannon of Whitechapel married Mary Lambird in Shouldham Thorpe in 1809. That makes him 18 when he married.
The bond paperwork claims that he is 21 and upwards. He was risking a lot of money that he probably didn't have by lying on the affa davit.
Another point of interest is that the witness to the Bond and the marriage was Francis Corsten. Francis Corsten seems to witness on everyone's marriage in Shouldham Thorpe at that time whether by Banns or Licence.
I wonder what was going on here.
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Hi again :)
I think ages were rounded to the nearest 5 years in the 1841 census so that gives 5 years scope from 1791
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Do you have John Cannons Death Cert?
It should have a more accurate age for him.
( I see one 1845 age 55, but the address is different from the 1841 Census with John/Rosanna/Benjamin on it)
Also do you have all of his Childrens Christenings?
Naming patterns may give you a better idea of possible names of his Parents.
As You say Francis Corsen witnesses a lot of Marriages Shouldham Thorpe. He may be a Parish Clerk.
A there are no other Cannon Marriages 10yrs either side of John Shouldham so I would say he is not of that Parish originally.
But he may be from elsewhere in Norfolk.
You may have to search out John Cannons on Familysearch.Org
I looked for John Cannon, Birth 1787-1891, England and there appear to be about 12.
Not all would be on there of course.
Try looking them up in Census to see if they appear to have stayed where they were born.
Eg the one born 1791 Barking, Essex, seems to be there in 1841
A labourius task but one that might be the answer.
Trish :)
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Hi again :)
I think ages were rounded to the nearest 5 years in the 1841 census so that gives 5 years scope from 1791
Thanks Vinpip
So I could be looking at a 1786 to 1788 birth date if the 21+ age on the marriage bond is correct.
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Do you have John Cannons Death Cert?
It should have a more accurate age for him.
( I see one 1845 age 55, but the address is different from the 1841 Census with John/Rosanna/Benjamin on it)
Also do you have all of his Childrens Christenings?
Naming patterns may give you a better idea of possible names of his Parents.
As You say Francis Corsen witnesses a lot of Marriages Shouldham Thorpe. He may be a Parish Clerk.
A there are no other Cannon Marriages 10yrs either side of John Shouldham so I would say he is not of that Parish originally.
But he may be from elsewhere in Norfolk.
You may have to search out John Cannons on Familysearch.Org
I looked for John Cannon, Birth 1787-1891, England and there appear to be about 12.
Not all would be on there of course.
Try looking them up in Census to see if they appear to have stayed where they were born.
Eg the one born 1791 Barking, Essex, seems to be there in 1841
A labourius task but one that might be the answer.
Trish :)
Thanks Trish - I will work through some of the points and respond.
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Let us know how you go Stephen :)
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In 1841 John Cannon cordwainer age 50 (rounded) is living with Rosanna and benjamin (presumed children) at Hope Place Whitechapel
On 12 May 1844 there is a burial recorded for a John Cannon of 12 Hope Place Whitechapel (age 57) at Wycliffe Congregational church Tower Hamlets.
This gives a birth year about 1787/8 and the possibility he is a non-conformist.
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Thanks Yokel
Not a cop out at all. Very useful info and good for future reference.
Now I know what bonds, allegations and licences are, I can hazard a guess as to the why.
If John Cannon's shoemaker business in Whitechapel was booming, I can't imagine that he could afford the time to travel backwards and forwards to Norfolk for three weekends in a row to hear the banns read.
Now to find out if John originated in Norfolk and how he ended up marrying a girl from a tiny village a long way from where he lived in East London.
Other possibility as to how they met is that Mary was working in London - possibly in service.
If they wanted to marry in her home parish (traditional to marry in bride's parish), she may not have been able to be resident there for the required three weeks because she was working in London.
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Thanks Lizzie
I'm pretty sure you have found the right burial record for John Cannon. I understand it was cheaper to be buried by the non-conformists (and the churchyard at St Mary, Whitechapel was full to capacity). Not sure what Hope Place was but John must have struggled raising at least 2 children without his wife around. I don't know when or where Mary died.
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Possible deathfor Mary Cannon
LONDON: Mile End New Town (Independent): Burials
05 Sep 1827
Age 40
Court Street Whitechapel
from FindMyPast
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Possible deathfor Mary Cannon
LONDON: Mile End New Town (Independent): Burials
05 Sep 1827
Age 40
Court Street Whitechapel
from FindMyPast
Benjamin was baptised at St Marys Whitechapel on 10 April 1825 (born 1 Feb 1825) s/o John and Mary Cannon (shoemaker) abode Court street.
Address is same, so it looks like right burial
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Thanks Vinpip
Thanks Lizzie
Looks like Mary was also buried in a non-conformist graveyard then. I wonder why Mile End New Town?
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Court Street is very near to Mile End New Town's southern historical boundary - Old Montague Street.