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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Monaghan => Topic started by: nbrome on Sunday 11 September 16 15:38 BST (UK)

Title: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: nbrome on Sunday 11 September 16 15:38 BST (UK)
My grandfather George Kelly was born in Castleblaney Monaghan October 10th 1864. I have his birth cert and his parents were Patrick Kelly and Elizabeth Duffy.
I want to find out who his siblings were (although I may be on a wild goose chase).  Searching on various sites for births to these parents between 1855 and 1880 I have come up with six possibilities - George October 1864
Mary May 1865 (bit too close?)
Sarah May 1867
Ellen August 1867  (problem here!)
Patrick June 1871
Elizabeth April 1880

In the 1901 census there is a Patrick Kelly and Elizabeth Kelly in Drumore Monaghan living with their two daughters Sarah and Lissy.  The parents state they have had 6 children and they are all still living.

But they can't be the six I found can they, because of clashes in the dates of birth. Is there any point in me going on with this, or something I'm missing?
I would be grateful for comments.
By the way, George left Ireland for England when he was in his twenties. He married and died in England.
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Sunday 11 September 16 16:46 BST (UK)
Images are online free...

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: nbrome on Monday 12 September 16 06:14 BST (UK)
Yes, I've looked at them. The family seem to have moved around various places, Patrick was a labourer and didn't seem to have his own plot of land. So I can't link births to one particular area.
I was just wondering if anyone had any ideas about linking siblings to parents apart from births and that census of 1901.
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Monday 12 September 16 08:17 BST (UK)
You have come up with six possibilities - George October 1864
Mary May 1865 (bit too close?)
Sarah May 1867
Ellen August 1867  (problem here!)
Patrick June 1871
Elizabeth April 1880

So search the newly released Civil Reg stuff, see what details there are for those after 1865
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Monday 12 September 16 08:28 BST (UK)
E.G.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/24c0dc3650454 is Mary

with correct parents so it is just a matter of checking each   Kelly   between 1865 and 1880 selecting Castleblaney etc from Column on left.
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: nbrome on Monday 12 September 16 09:09 BST (UK)
I've done all that now and printed them off.

It's not right though, is it?  Two of them are born in the same year - big hint I'm off track!
Another two have only about 7 months between them, hmm.....

Something tells me there was another couple called Patrick and Elizabeth nee Duffy in that area.
On the other hand, the Patrick and Elizabeth Kelly in Drumore Monaghan in the 1901 census say they had 6 children, and I haven't come up with any more children born to parents of that name.
Time to make a cup of tea....
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: Maggsie on Monday 12 September 16 11:22 BST (UK)
Hi I have looked at several sites.
You will have to pull all these together.
George, on his Baptism record it says Birth date 4th October 1864.
In the civil register book it says date of birth 10th October 1864.
I will send the Baptism info of George, Sarah, Ellen and Elizabeth via PM.
On some it doesn't state Elizabeth's maiden name, but the address is still the same.
I will see if I can find the other 2 names.
I often wondered what an "Irish Twin" was, they are born in the same year but 9 months or so between them. Twins usually have "Twin to and the other name entered on each of the records"
Maggsie
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: dathai on Monday 12 September 16 11:33 BST (UK)
for reference i think ?
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Monaghan/Carrickaslane/Lislanly/802131/
Patrick's death 1909
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1909/05446/4523989
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: Maggsie on Monday 12 September 16 11:34 BST (UK)
Hi,
Just checked and Patrick has Betty Duffy and Mary has Elizabeth Duffy.
If you get stuck please say and I will get them for you.
Maggsie
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: dathai on Monday 12 September 16 11:40 BST (UK)
mother is called Betty in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Monaghan/Church_Hill/Drumore/1630279/
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Monday 12 September 16 12:01 BST (UK)
Hi I have looked at several sites.
You will have to pull all these together.
George, on his Baptism record it says Birth date 4th October 1864.
In the civil register book it says date of birth 10th October 1864.
I will send the Baptism info of George, Sarah, Ellen and Elizabeth via PM.
On some it doesn't state Elizabeth's maiden name, but the address is still the same.
I will see if I can find the other 2 names.
I often wondered what an "Irish Twin" was, they are born in the same year but 9 months or so between them. Twins usually have "Twin to and the other name entered on each of the records"
Maggsie
.
Sending everything by PM cuts everyone else out that is trying to help!!

How are we supposed to know what has been found?  not found??
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: Sinann on Monday 12 September 16 12:06 BST (UK)
I was going to say look at the parish register and see if any of the births were registered late.
Birth dates on birth Certs are often later than the baptism....but the site is offline at the moment.
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: Maggsie on Monday 12 September 16 12:34 BST (UK)
The records
Maggsie

Church Baptism Record
Name:   George Kelly   Date of Birth:   04-Oct-1864
        Date of Baptism:   0not liste
Address:   [no Location]   Parish/District:   Muckno (Castleblayney)
Gender:    M   County   Co. Monaghan
      Denomination:   [not Listed]

Father:   Patrick Kelly   Mother:   Elizabeth Kelly
Occupation:   [not Listed]       [not Listed]

Sponsor 1 /
Informant 1:   [not Listed] [not Listed]
[not Listed]    Sponsor 2 /
Informant 2:   [not Listed] [not Listed]

   Notes:
   no. m/f. Celebrant: John Kelly.


Church Baptism Record
Name:   Sarah Kelly   Date of Birth:   19-May-1867
        Date of Baptism:   0not liste
Address:   Drumakill   Parish/District:   Muckno (Castleblayney)
Gender:    F   County   Co. Monaghan
      Denomination:   [not Listed]

Father:   Patrick Kelly   Mother:   Elizabeth Duffy
Occupation:   [not Listed]       [not Listed]

Sponsor 1 /
Informant 1:   [not Listed] [not Listed]
[not Listed]    Sponsor 2 /
Informant 2:   [not Listed] [not Listed]

   Notes:
   no. m/f. Celebrant: Bernard Duffy.

Church Baptism Record
Name:   Ellen Kelly   Date of Birth:   01-Aug-1867
        Date of Baptism:   
Address:   Balladian   Parish/District:   TULLYCORBET (Ballybay)
Gender:       County   Co. Monaghan
      Denomination:   Roman Catholic

Father:   Patrick Kelly   Mother:   Elizabeth Duffy
Occupation:         

Sponsor 1 /
Informant 1:   Philip Duffy    Sponsor 2 /
Informant 2:   Ellen Mulligan

   Notes:


Church Baptism Record
Name:   Elizabeth Kelly   Date of Birth:   0not liste
        Date of Baptism:   17-Apr-1880
Address:   Drummond   Parish/District:   Muckno (Castleblayney)
Gender:    F   County   Co. Monaghan
      Denomination:   [not Listed]

Father:   Patrick Kelly   Mother:   Elizabeth Duffy
Occupation:   [not Listed]       [not Listed]

Sponsor 1 /
Informant 1:   [not Listed] [not Listed]
[not Listed]    Sponsor 2 /
Informant 2:   [not Listed] [not Listed]

   Notes:
   no. 690. Celebrant: Peter Birmingham.

Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: nbrome on Monday 12 September 16 15:05 BST (UK)
Thank you all so much.
Thank you also Maggsie for taking the time to lay all that out  - do you have the baptism info for Mary too, just to complete the six?

Yes, I've been trying to piece something together from death records this morning, as dathai has suggested.  I suppose I'm looking for another couple called Patrick and Elizabeth Duffy, as I don't think all these children here can be theirs, even though they said they had six.

While Mary could conceivably (sorry about that!) have been born 7 months after George, allowing for late registration,  there is no way Sarah could have been born in May 1867 and Ellen in August 1867.

A long time ago I searched for a marriage between Patrick and Elizabeth on the Roots site and came up with only one in that area in 1855, too early probably for my research. But it's also true that a lot of Monaghan records are not on that site.   In view of that, it's possible that there were other children born to P and E before the 1864 cutoff.   
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: Sinann on Monday 12 September 16 15:21 BST (UK)
Look at the parish, all but one are in the same parish so more likely to be the same family, if they are the family you want or not is a different story.
Free Parish Registers still off line so can't even check what available to search at the moment.
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: Maggsie on Monday 12 September 16 15:33 BST (UK)
Hi, nbrome

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03301/2209582

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03576/2318115

the records
Maggsie
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: Maggsie on Monday 12 September 16 15:34 BST (UK)
I checked 4 sites for the marriage, not listed sorry.
Maggsie
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: nbrome on Monday 12 September 16 15:41 BST (UK)
Hi Maggsie, what you sent me previously were the church baptism records for four of the children. Do you have the baptisms for Mary (1865) and Patrick (1871) just to complete the six?  I already have the civil registration printouts.   thanks.
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: Maggsie on Monday 12 September 16 16:10 BST (UK)
Ok, I have just found the records in Ancestry.
They are duplicated. 2 sites have been entered into Ancestry at different times.
Any way here are the records
Maggsie

Mary Kelly
 in the Ireland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1620-1911
Name:   Mary Kelly
Gender:   Female
Birth Date:   12 May 1865
Birth Place:   Monaghan, Ireland
Father:   Patrick Kelly

Mother:   Elizabeth Duffy

FHL Film Number:   101105
Mary Kelly
 in the Ireland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1620-1911
Add your own Close
Name:   Mary Kelly
Gender:   Female
Birth Date:   12 May 1865
Birth Place:   Ballibay, Mon, Ireland
Baptism Place:   Ballibay, Mon, Ireland
Father:   Patrick Kelly

Mother:   Elizabeth Duffy

FHL Film Number:   101105
Patrick Kelly
 in the Ireland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1620-1911
Name:   Patrick Kelly
Gender:   Male
Birth Date:   8 Jun 1871
Birth Place:   Ballybay, Mon, Ireland
Baptism Place:   Ballybay, Mon, Ireland
Father:   Patrick Kelly

Mother:   Betty Duffy

FHL Film Number:   255818
Patrick Kelly
 in the Ireland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1620-1911
Name:   Patrick Kelly
Gender:   Male
Birth Date:   8 Jun 1871
Birth Place:   Monaghan, Ireland
Father:   Patrick Kelly

Mother:   Betty Duffy

FHL Film Number:   255818

Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Monday 12 September 16 16:13 BST (UK)
You have come up with six possibilities - George October 1864
Mary May 1865 (bit too close?)
Sarah May 1867
Ellen August 1867  (problem here!)
Patrick June 1871
Elizabeth April 1880

So search the newly released Civil Reg stuff, see what details there are for those after 1865
.
So are the above dates Births or Baptisms?
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: Maggsie on Monday 12 September 16 16:13 BST (UK)
If you go to the registers.nli.ie and find the Parish you will see the entries.
Not all images are in Ancestry.
Maggsie
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: Sinann on Monday 12 September 16 16:57 BST (UK)
Ah great it's back.
Start you off
George 4 Oct 1864
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632809#page/26/mode/1up
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Monday 12 September 16 21:00 BST (UK)
Hi Maggsie, what you sent me previously were the church baptism records for four of the children. Do you have the baptisms for Mary (1865) and Patrick (1871) just to complete the six?  I already have the civil registration printouts.   thanks.
.
if you are working with Baptism dates then allow for the age of each child..
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: nbrome on Tuesday 13 September 16 07:13 BST (UK)
Thanks Sinann, George is my grandfather so that was a good one to start off on!
Hallmark, yes my first list was civil registration dates.  Thanks to Sinann, I now know that George was actually born on October 4th and not 10th. 
The next one along is Mary who was registered on May 12th 1865. I can't find her in the parish registers but in any case she must have been baptised before May 12th.  That's only 7 months after George was born.
I'm putting a link here to Mary's civil registration, mainly to ask people what they think the placename is - Drum something or other.
I'm also shrinking the link, is that the right thing to do or can I just put original links?

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01igo/
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: nbrome on Tuesday 13 September 16 07:33 BST (UK)
I think I may be onto a glimmer of light here.  I think there were two couples with the same names. That's based mainly on the fact that Sarah and Ellen appear to be born both in the same year only 4 months apart (although I must admit I haven't seen their baptism records).
Trolling through deaths for Patrick and Elizabeth I have one for a Patrick Kelly died 1902, present at death was daughter Ellen, the place something like 'Ednanea'.
On the 1901 census I have found him with daughter Ellen and 'sister' Ellen Duffy in Edeneaneane, Ballybay.
This only means there were two different families. On with the hunt.
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Tuesday 13 September 16 09:01 BST (UK)
Well that is progress in itself....
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: nbrome on Sunday 18 September 16 08:46 BST (UK)
Ok, I'm here again and getting really frustrated over this.
I have now printed out all the civil registrations for these six Kelly children. I have also found the baptism records for three of them.
I can't for the life of me find the other three in Baptism records though. I'm really fed up with myself, but I think I'm going to damage my eyesight if I don't give it a break.
So if anyone has the time and patience to have a look at these and tell me where their baptisms are I would be eternally grateful.

Mary Kelly
civil reg 12 May 1865 Castleblaney, district Ballibay

Patrick Kelly
civil reg 8 June 1871  Castleblaney, district Ballibay

Elizabeth Kelly
civil reg 22 April 1880 Castleblayney, district Crossmaglen 'Counties of Armagh and Monaghan'

(even one of them would be a help!)    thanks a lot.
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Sunday 18 September 16 10:26 BST (UK)
Just put in    Kelly    and year ranges 1865 to 1865 etc and Castleblaney    then Search...

Same with 1871 to 1871 for Pat etc
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Sunday 18 September 16 10:28 BST (UK)
The 1864 one shows up because REGISTRATION took place in 1865
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Sunday 18 September 16 10:33 BST (UK)
Pat

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/bc80c96185267
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Sunday 18 September 16 10:37 BST (UK)
Elizabeth https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/d9c2305177843
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Sunday 18 September 16 10:40 BST (UK)
 Birth, Marriage and Death results for Kelly of Castleblayney

Displaying results 1 - 100 of 1424. http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ii7/

Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Sunday 18 September 16 11:13 BST (UK)
http://www.logainm.ie/en/39796?s=Drumcreeghan

http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0288
http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0287
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Sunday 18 September 16 11:21 BST (UK)
Elizabeth https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/d9c2305177843

Drumore, Monaghan

http://www.logainm.ie/en/39765
http://www.logainm.ie/en/40541
http://www.logainm.ie/en/41070
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Sunday 18 September 16 11:26 BST (UK)
Ok, I'm here again and getting really frustrated over this.
I have now printed out all the civil registrations for these six Kelly children. I have also found the baptism records for three of them.
I can't for the life of me find the other three in Baptism records though. I'm really fed up with myself, but I think I'm going to damage my eyesight if I don't give it a break.
So if anyone has the time and patience to have a look at these and tell me where their baptisms are I would be eternally grateful.

Mary Kelly
civil reg 12 May 1865 Castleblaney, district Ballibay

Patrick Kelly
civil reg 8 June 1871  Castleblaney, district Ballibay

Elizabeth Kelly
civil reg 22 April 1880 Castleblayney, district Crossmaglen 'Counties of Armagh and Monaghan'

(even one of them would be a help!)    thanks a lot.


The townlands was what was needed, to try to find Parish they were in.
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: nbrome on Sunday 18 September 16 14:58 BST (UK)
What a lot of time and effort you've put in Hallmark.  I should have put on the parishes (as far as I could understand the writing) from the civil registrations. I have all the civil registrations you put on here, I just can't get ahead with the baptisms.

I've just tried again with Dromore and Drumcreegan but I can't find the names I want.

Can you make out the townland name on Patrick's civil registration (June 1871)?  It seems to begin with a C or an F maybe, a short word.
Thanks so much for your help.
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Sunday 18 September 16 15:16 BST (UK)
Only took a few minutes and at least everyone can see What's What...

I think it MIGHT be Crieve/Creeve...

http://www.logainm.ie/en/39795

county Muineachán/Monaghan

electoral district An Chraobh/Creeve

barony Críoch Mhúrn/Cremorne

civil parish  Achadh na Muileann/Aghnamullen

Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: nbrome on Sunday 18 September 16 15:35 BST (UK)
The NLI baptisms only gives Elphin diocese for both those spellings.
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Sunday 18 September 16 16:54 BST (UK)
Clogher!

http://www.logainm.ie/en/1976?s=Aghnamullen  120 townlands in Aghnamullen  Parish incl Creeve

http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0287  Aughnamullen East    Diocese of Clogher | County of Monagha
http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0288  Aughnamullen West, Diocese of Clogher | County of Monaghan
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: nbrome on Monday 19 September 16 06:21 BST (UK)
I think we might be talking at crossed purposes here. I meant the two spellings for Crieve/Creeve.  It's a place in Monaghan but apparently not the name of a parish there, as the NLI site is giving me only Elphin.

I had also already looked up those two for Aughnamullen but I can't find the baptism I'm looking for.
Still can't find any of those three baptisms I'm looking for, but I do appreciate your help.
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Monday 19 September 16 06:43 BST (UK)
Creeve on Cert is a townland!

Creeve in Monaghan is a townland!

In the PARISH OF AGHAMULLEN...
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Monday 19 September 16 06:45 BST (UK)
I've already posted the link to the 120 townlands in the Parish of Aghnamullen PLUS link to the NLI Registers for the Parish!
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Monday 19 September 16 06:47 BST (UK)
Already posted...

http://www.logainm.ie/en/39795

county Muineachán/Monaghan

electoral district An Chraobh/Creeve

barony Críoch Mhúrn/Cremorne



civil PARISH  Achadh na Muileann/Aghnamullen
Title: Re: children of Kelly/Duffy
Post by: hallmark on Monday 19 September 16 06:50 BST (UK)
" It's a place in Monaghan but apparently not the name of a parish there!.....

YES I know it's not a Parish!

It is a TOWNLAND IN A PARISH!