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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: matth364 on Monday 26 September 16 00:06 BST (UK)
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Hello,
Am hoping someone can help us. We're told that my husband's Bell ancestors come from Jedburgh. Son Adam came to Ontario, Canada. He married Jane Symington (Lanark, Scotland) in Ontario in March, 1864. The marriage registration lists Adam's d of b Jan. 16, 1839, "W" for his father, and Agnes for his mother. We'd like to find information or early registrations for Adam, or his parents, and a place of burial for his parents. We also know that he had a sister Bella.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Jean (Calgary, Alberta, Canada)
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If you are searching for Scottish ancestors you will need the website Scotland's People. This is currently unavailable as it is undergoing an upgrade, but should be up and running again soon.
FamilySearch also has some Scottish records.
With those names, you need to be careful that you are following the correct family of Bells. W is possibly going to be William. Both forenames and surname are very common in Scotland. (I have some in my research). Adam not so common .... :)
Did the place of origin of Jedburgh come from an official document or was it from a family story?
When did Adam go to Canada? Did any other family members also go to Canada?
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Hi Jean,
Like Ruskie has suggested, do you know any other info on Adam Bell. When did he arrive in Canada? Where does the location of Jedburgh come from? What were the names of the couple Adam and Jane Bell's children in order of birth. Names of offspring including middle names can be good clues to grandparents.
Looby :)
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There is only one Adam Bell of the right age born Jedburgh in 1851 Census:
Lanton, Jedburgh
David Bell 71 House Proprietor and Grocer born Jedburgh, Roxburghshire
Adam Bell son 46 Tailor born Wilton, Roxb.
Isabella Bell dau. 34 born Ancrum, Roxb.
Sarah Bell dau. 31 born Eckford, Roxb.
George L. Bell son 23 born Crailing, Roxb.
Adam Bell grandson 2 born Jedburgh
Thomas Rutherford grandson 12 ditto
1841 - Lanton, Jedburgh
David Bell 60 Grocer
Margaret Bell 58
David Bell 19 Tailor
George Bell 14
Jannet Fairburn 5
Adam Hardie 2
Now, I don't know if you are aware, but it was quite common in Scotland for illegitimate children to grow up with their natural fathers surname and, indeed, often with their paternal family. In 1841 there is no Adam Bell in Jedburgh, and bearing in mind that in 1851 grandson Adam Bell is 12 and with paternal grandfather David Bell, I would think that Adam 'Hardie' 2 and Adam Bell are one and the same. This would indicate his parents were not married.
I cannot find a W. Bell married to an Agnes Hardie on familysearch so quite who 'W' is I don't know.
David Bell was married to Margaret Brown but few birth entries on familysearch (perhaps more revealed on Scotlands People) for their children - looks like they married ca.1805 and can only find 3 births on familysearch:
Thomas born 15/2/1808 Crailing, Roxburghshire son of David Bell and Margaret Brown
David born 13/4/1822 Crailing, ditto
George Lily born 18/12/1827 Crailing, ditto
plus - from census' we know there were also:
Adam bc.1805 Welton, Roxb.
Isabella bc.1817 Ancrum, Roxb.
Sarah bc.1820 Eckford, Roxb.
plus a 'W'?
plus a Janet bc.1811 Bowden, Roxb.
Is it definitely a 'W' shown for his father or could it have been a badly written 'A'? I can't see the Adam Bell bc.1805 on census after 1851 (but then he may have died which we can't confirm at the moment with SP site down) and wondered whether Adam was his father (shown as unmarried 1851) and both of them possibly went to Canada?? Perhaps I'm just clutching at straws!
The 1851 census also shows at Southdean, Roxburghshire:
Thomas Sword 37 Shepherd born Southdean
Janet Sword 40 born Bowden
Margaret Sword 5
John Sword 7mos
Janet Fairbairne 15 stepdaughter
Isabella Bell 5 niece
Clearly, the stepdaughter is the Jannet 5 with David Bell in 1841, so her mother Janet is another daughter of David - Thomas Sword married Janet Bell 11/12/1846 Jedburgh. This would suggest that dau. Janet Fairburn/Fairbaine bc.1836 was also illegitimate but raised with her natural fathers surname, like Adam. So, if Isabella Bell is Adam Bell's sister Bella (as seems likely) was her mother also Agnes Hardie or possibly someone else?? Such a nuisance that SP site is down right now.
This posting turned out longer than I thought!
Annette
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Hi Annette,
I also looked at that family on 1851 Census at Lanton, Jedburgh.
The transcription on Freecen however has the householder as William Bell (obviously the real deal Census on Scotlands People should clear that up) and I wondered if the W stood for the grandfather who had raised him :/
Looby :)
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I agree Looby,
Likely to be g/father & probably never knew any different.
Annie
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Just wanted to point out that it only shows 'William' as head for 1851 on FreeCen and I believe this is an error! On 3 other transcription sites it is David and ties in with the 1841 Census - also the George L. Bell son shown in 1851 is confirmed by birth on familysearch as son of David and Margaret as in 1841 census.
Annette
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Just wanted to point out that it only shows 'William' as head for 1851 on FreeCen and I believe this is an error! On 3 other transcription sites it is David and ties in with the 1841 Census - also the George L. Bell son shown in 1851 is confirmed by birth on familysearch as son of David and Margaret as in 1841 census.
Annette
Yes Annette - It probably is an error on Freecen 1851 Census - although rather an odd one William instead of David ??? However as I said looking at the real Census on Scotlands People would hopefully clear up that mix -up.
To be honest I have found it very hard to find some of the Bells from 1851 on the 1841 Census. Adam Bell , aged 46 and a tailor for instance. I cannot find a match 10 years earlier (I had wondered if he was the father of Adam Hardie/Bell. :( ) .
Looby
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Many thanks to everyone for their quick replies! I'm so appreciative of the questions, information you've looked up, and suggestions. I will look up some more details so that can reply to you all as soon as possible. Jean
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Hi,
Scotlands People has Adams birth as....... Adam Hardie b 25/1/1839, baptised 20/10/1839 Jedburgh Associate Church, parents John Hardie/Agnes Easton Bell. Hope this is of some help.
Terry
Added - On family search - Agnes Easton Bell married a James Scott 26/11/1845, Jedburgh. Children born to Agnes - Adam Hardie 1839, Jessie Scott 22/2/1844, William Scott 23/5/1846, Agnes Wilson Scott 23/5/1846, David Lillie Scott 3/9/1850, James Scott 19/10/1850, all baptised on dates shown at Jedburgh Free Church.
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Thanks so much, Terry! I shall happily pursue this information for my husband's family. Over the last couple of days, I have pulled out what I had and had been working on a response to the group in answer to all their questions. I'll post that too, even though this new information tonight will make a lot of it irrelevant (or so we hope!)
Sincerely, Jean
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Hello everyone, and again, thanks so much for your replies and suggestions.
***An update tonight - as suggested, it appears that Adam might actually have been born a Hardie. The dates of birth are almost exact…and his mother’s name provides the strongest clue. I will begin working in this new direction….. In the meantime, here is what I’d been working on over the last few days to respond to all of your questions….it was ready to go, so I’ll send it to you anyway. Again, my deepest appreciation!
“After Scotlandspeople was up and running again, I was able to go back and double check the few records I’d gotten over the years, and put those together with the Canadian records I have. Extensive searches have only gotten a few vague hits, and I possess only 4 confirmed records in total.
ILLEGITIMATE - the suggestion that Adam may have been illegitimate was a not one I'd pursued yet for this branch of the family. Nor had I thought that W might have been his grandfather. However, I'm familiar with what you are suggesting because it's cropped up in other searches - but in those cases, the child showed up with their mother and kept either her maiden or new married surname. In one case, the mother even named the father on the birth registration which was very helpful in confirming what information I had.
WHY JEDBURGH? Back in the 1980s when I was just getting started with our family history, I interviewed my husband’s aunt and then his father. While each corrected the other’s memory on some details, neither argued that their grandfather Adam had come from Jedburgh. It’s also in their notes that Adam had a sister Bella who helped with his children when Jane died.
MORE ABOUT ADAM : We have a page from a family Bible giving Adam’s name and a date which has no relevance to us yet – Nov. 27, 1863, about 6 months before his first marriage; on the reverse of this page is his first wife’s name together with what turned out to be her date of death, Jan. 14, 1873. We also had a brief obituary listing Jane’s father as James Symington of Lanark, Scotland. With that information I was able to find their 1864 Ontario marriage registration on Ancestry (no original available, and one has not been ordered so I cannot confirm if the initial is W or A) on which Adam lists “W” as his father and Agnes as his mother. On this, he lists his place of birth as “York Tsp, Weston” (which is part of Toronto, Ontario and where he was living at the time). For many years, that and the Bible entries were all I had. In the 2000s, I went looking for the birth certificate for another of Adam’s daughters - Elizabeth, my husband’s grandmother - and along the way, discovered a second Ontario marriage for Adam in 1883. On that marriage registration, Adam listed his father as “William”. In the 1871 and subsequent censuses, Adam lists his place of birth as “Scotland”. In the more expansive 1901 Canadian census, Adam lists his year of emigration as 1860 and we finally have his birth date - Jan. 16, 1839. The year is consistent with ages he gave on other documents we have.
OTHER RECORD SEARCHES – Thank you for the records you have uncovered. I will study those further. In the meantime, here is what I’ve uncovered through the years -
• I have an OPR birth/baptismal document dated 17/12/1813 for an Adam Bell and his sister Janet of Jedburgh to a Thomas Bell, millwright in Jedburgh and his wife, Isbel(sic) Miller. Witnesses for Janet are Adam Bell, Mason, and Margaret Bell. Witnesses for Adam are Adam Bell and Geo Sword.
• I have an 1841 census for William Bell, 50, Agnes Bell, 40, Janet, 15 George 12 and William 10 of Moorfoot. The listings are with others in Swinnie. I place these settlements just south of Jedburgh, is that right?
• An Ancestry search for Bells in Jedburgh turned up one Adam Bell in the 1871 census, age 12 living with Walter, 50 and Margaret, 54. Obviously too late to be our ancestor though.
• There are a few William Bells in Roxboroshire, but none in Jedburgh and because other locations can’t be confirmed, I haven’t purchased any of these records.
EASTON as a family name -
• I wanted to find out if the Easton middle name used in all her official documents by Agnes, Adam’s daughter, was a family name or just one she liked.
It seems that I’m at an impasse. If you have any further suggestions, I’d be appreciative!” End
Now, as of tonight, I have ‘new’ work cut out for me! Many thanks everyone….
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Hi Jean,
I see Agnes Easton Scott died 3/8/1868 aged 54 at Denholm, Roxburghshire the daughter of David Bell and Margaret Brown (who were both deceased at the time of her death). Cause of death was malignant disease of the abdomen, registered by James Scott, widower.
Again hope this helps.
Terry
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Final lot of info.... I see William and Agnes were twins and there is a sister isa(bella) b 1858. Over to you :)
Terry
1851 Lanton Jedburgh
Agnes E Scott Wife 36 1815 Road Maker's Wife Ancrum, Roxburghshire,
Margaret Scott Daughter 13 1838 Scholar Jedburgh, Roxburghshire,
Janet Scott Daughter 9 1842 Scholar Jedburgh, Roxburghshire,
Jesse Scott Daughter 7 1844 Scholar Jedburgh, Roxburghshire,
William Scott Son 4 1847 - Jedburgh, Roxburghshire,
Agnes W Scott Daughter 4 1847 - Jedburgh, Roxburghshire,
David L Scott Son 2 1849 - Jedburgh, Roxburghshire,
James Scott Son 0 1851 - Jedburgh, Roxburghshire,
1861 Lanton Jedburgh
James Scott -Married 49 1812 Road Surfaceman Hobkirk, Roxburghshire,
David L Scott - 13 1848 - Jedburgh, Roxburghshire,
James Scott - - 11 1850 Scholar Jedburgh, Roxburghshire,
Elizabeth Scott - - 7 1854 Scholar Roxburghshire,
Isabella Scott - - 3 1858 - Roxburghshire,
William Dods -Widower 30 1831 Road Surfaceman Roxburghshire,
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Hi Matth364.
Well done on all you have uncovered. Adam Hardie/Bell seems like your man.
His mother Agnes Easton Scott is living only about 3 households from Adam and his grandparents at Lanton in Jedburgh on the 1851 Census -
SCOTT Agnes E. Wife Married 36 Roadmaker's Wife Roxburghshire - Ancrum
SCOTT Margaret Dau 13 Scholar Roxburghshire - Jedburgh
SCOTT Janet Dau 9 Scholar Roxburghshire - Jedburgh
SCOTT Jesse Dau 7 Scholar Roxburghshire - Jedburgh
SCOTT William Son 4 Roxburghshire - Jedburgh
SCOTT Agnes W. Dau 4 Roxburghshire - Jedburgh
SCOTT David L. Son 2 Roxburghshire - Jedburgh
SCOTT James Son 5m Roxburghshire - Jedburgh
Adam had a few half siblings !
Looby :)
Added - Ooops ;D Snap Terry .
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Added - Ooops ;D Snap Terry .
:o ;D ;D ;D
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Thanks everyone! I'll be on a roll now!
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"RE: Agnes Easton Scott died 3/8/1868 aged 54 at Denholm, Roxburghshire the daughter of David Bell and Margaret Brown (who were both deceased at the time of her death). Cause of death was malignant disease of the abdomen, registered by James Scott, widower". Information kindly provided to me by Terry on September 30.
I've now had a chance to do some more searching (not making purchases on Scotlandspeople unfortunately right now) of free sites and some transcriptions provided free online. I can see that the Denholm Kirkyard was used post-Agnes' death, and prior, information says that burials were done at Caven. Would anyone be able to confirm that this would be a good direction for me to go in? I'm very appreciative of your time. Thanks, Jean Calgary, Canada.