RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => West Lothian (Linlithgowshire) => Topic started by: moo on Monday 10 October 16 15:34 BST (UK)
-
Good Afternoon
I am slowly finding family belonging to Robert and Janet Chalmers (previous post).
Thomas born 3.12.1826 Mid Calder married Margaret Smith daughter of Hume Smith and Isabella Walker in 1822 Edinburgh.
They had the following children
Isabel 14.1.1825 West Calder married a male Kilpatrick
Thomas 3.12.1826 West Calder
Janet 11.10.1829 West Calder
Hume Smith Chalmers 14.03.1836 Shotts, who married Elizabeth Easton 1861 Bathgate, he died in 1907 and had a Hotel in Greenock.
John 04.04.1833 (not known where)
Margaret 04.08.1839 Whitburn
Thomas died 1872 Bathgate death notification Isabella Kilpatrick - Daughter
Margaret died 1881 Linlithgow death notification James Wright - son in law
I would be most grateful for any further information regarding any of the above.
Regards
Moo
-
Its taken some finding, but it was Margaret who married James Wight in Bathgate 25th October 1871. ;D. I'm still not having much joy with Isabel and a Kilpatrick, would anyone be able to check census records for me please.
Regards
Moo
-
Isabella Chalmers or Kilpatrick died in 1874 in St Giles (i.e. Edinburgh), aged 49. Her death certificate (available online from SP at modest cost) will confirm her parentage and the name of her husband, and whether he predeceased or survived her.
-
Thank you Forfarian for checking.
-
Thank you Forfarian ;D - That's the one, however something is written in the margin of the entry - which I cannot make out. His name is James Kilpatrick.
Regards
Moo
-
Got a copy of the report of corrections - can hardly read that lol, might be time for some new glasses.
I think that the report is saying that her condition at death was know to the Dr's .
Regrads
Moo
-
Moo, from the list of children you showed for Thomas and Margaret, their daughter Margaret I think married a Robert Sutherland.
The 1871 census shows:
Thomas Chalmers 74
Margaret Chalmers 73
Isabella Chalmers 46
Mary Sutherland 2 grandchild....maybe this entry for Mary? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYSQ-3PT
Address: 22 Mid St, Bathgate
Marriage here to let you check further on SP https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYWS-5MT
Another daughter called Margaret Smith Sutherland which helps further to firm up https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQS9-65J Was Margaret widowed soon and remarried James Wright in 1871?
Monica
-
Thank you Monical
I found the marriage of Margaret to James Wight, the son in law on the death certificate for Margaret (smith) Chalmers. Margaret is aged 31 and James is 23. I have doubled checked and is states that Margaret was a spinster.
Regards
Moo
ps
Will keep details on file ...you never know.
-
Might be worth checking that Sutherland/Chalmers marriage. As I added above, at least two daughters from that marriage. With one, Mary Sutherland, showing with grandparents Thomas and Margaret Chalmers in 1871.The other Sutherland daughter, Margaret Smith Sutherland is also a big additonal clue...
Son John born 1833 married a Mary Ann Ferguson. I think this is their marriage in Glasgow in 1856 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTYW-GLZ
1861 here:
John Chalmers 27 joiner b. East Calder, Edinburghshire
Mary Ann Chalmers 24
John Chalmers 4
Thomas Chalmers 1 Month
Address: South Bridge St, Bathgate
Children's birth showing on the FS index here www.rootschat.com/links/01in9/
Monica
-
One more to follow up on.
I think Janet/Jessie married a James Taylor. These are some of their children's birth details from FS www.rootschat.com/links/01ina/
From 1871:
James Taylor 39 spirit dealer b. West Calder, edinr
Jessie Taylor 41 b. West Calder, edinr
Margaret Taylor 14
Helen Taylor 12
Jessie Taylor 10
...and four staff
Address: Main St, West Calder
Maybe they didn't formalise their union by marriage until later? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTTR-TMT
Monica
-
Thank you Monical,
I shall certainly look into them all. You mentioned " Maybe they didn't formalise their union by marriage until later" is this something quite common, as I think I may have something similar with another line, the Campbell & Wright proclamations, but no actual marriage.
Regards
Moo
-
Can happen that people co-habited as man and wife and then had a civil marriage later. Always hard to guess at the reasons. Sometimes this happened because one of them wasn't free to marry yet as first spouse may still have been living for example.
Monica
-
It's the Register of Corrected Entries, and it means that there was some sort of investigation after the event into the cause of death. If you can post that part of the page we could maybe decipher it for you.
-
Thank you Forfarian
-
This is the original entry
-
The original seems to read 'Ovarian disease, syncope' and the RCE says 'Syncope ..... disease of the heart' but I am not sure what the ..... is.
There's nothing specific to say that Dr Littlejohn knew what was wrong with her before she died, but it's not unlikely that he did, if he was her regular doctor.
According to my ordinary dictionary, syncope is 'a fainting fit from sudden anaemia of the brain'. I believe that it is associated with irregularity of the rhythm of the heart, which would fit with the reference to 'disease of the heart' in the RCE.
-
Thank you again Forfarian, very much appreciated
Regards
Moo
-
Monical,
I followed up on all your suggestions, and you were spot on, thank you.
Margaret had been married twice.
Regards
Moo
-
That is great that you have been able to confirm. Good luck with the searches :)
Monica
-
Hi,
I just found this on roots chat and I am related to the Chalmers/Smith family. On the 1881 census it states that Mary Sutherland was their niece. Hope this helps.
Becky
-
Hello Becky
Pleased to hear from a Chalmers researcher, I am slowly untangling the various names and connections.
;D
Regards
Moo
-
Hi,
I did look into Mary Sutherland and she was the daughter and not the niece so it was from a second marriage. It is good that I found this site so that I could make that correction.
Becky
-
Hi Becky
I am still looking for the death of Robert Sutherland :(
So if you find it, please give me a shout.
Regards
Moo
-
Yes it is frustrating trying to find Robert Sutherland's death on the GRO's. It could be it was indexed wrong. I have their marriage record in 1865 and his birth is on there b. 1835 to James Sutherland and Mary McKay. If they did not divorce then he had to have died after his two children were born and Margaret remarried which would be between 1868 and 1871 and he would have been 33 or 36 yrs old. I will keep trying to find him.
Becky
-
Silly question, probably. I assume you have ruled out the Robert Sutherland who died in Montrose in 1871 aged 35?
-
Hello Forfarian,
I couldn't even find the death you have mentioned, will have another go and see if it's him.
Becky
I have the marriage certificate between Margaret and James dated 25th October 1871 - happy to share. I believe Margaret Smith Sutherland died aged 2 1867 Bathgate.
Regards
Moo
-
Hallo Forfarian and Moo,
I was wondering about that one and wondered why he would have died in Montrose and his wife marrying in the same year but I finally downloaded it from GRO's and he was in an asylum with paralysis for 3 years. It does not give a wife or parents but said he was from Latheron and that is where they came from. I can send this to you. I also have the death of Margaret Wight if you would care to have it. I have the marriage of Robert and Margaret as well. I assume I can do an attachment.
Becky
-
I can't imagine why someone from Caithness living in West Lothian would have been in the asylum in Montrose, but it's not impossible.
Did he die after census day in 1871 (2 April)? If so, might the 1871 census contain some useful snippet?
I did some work on Sutherlands from Caithness who moved to West Lothian for a cousin (on her mother's side) who was a descendant (on her father's side) of Donald Tulloch Sutherland, born 21 November 1835 at Clysterfield, Thurso and died 9 January 1898 in Bathgate. His brother Robert (born 1842 in Thurso) also moved from there to Bathgate but I have nothing on Robert after the 1861 census. Their tree includes 53 Sutherlands born in Latheron, but not, so far, your Robert.
I wonder what impelled Sutherlands from Caithness to move to Bathgate?
-
Robert Sutherland, a cooper died 19 June 1871 at the age of 35. He was married and from Latheron.
He was born in Latheron 15 Mar 1835 to James Sutherland and Mary McKay. Note on his marriage to Margaret Chalmers that states he was a cooper. Even though it does not give a wife or parents we can pretty well figure this is him.
-
I will check the 1871 census for him.
-
He was born in Latheron 15 Mar 1835 to James Sutherland and Mary McKay.
Where did 15 March come from? SP has him baptised on 23 August 1835. FS has the same, plus birth 10 August 1835?
-
Hi Everyone
Downloaded the certificate, it does not give any details about wife or parents. In the 1871 census he is shown as in an asylum, so I am thinking that this is indeed him.
Just need to find Margaret in the 1871 census, their daughter is living with grandparents in Bathgate.
Thank you everyone ;D
Regards
Moo
-
Downloaded the certificate, it does not give any details about wife or parents. In the 1871 census he is shown as in an asylum, so I am thinking that this is indeed him.
Looks very likely.
The archives of the Montrose asylum (Sunnyside Royal Hospital) are in the University of Dundee Archives http://www.dundee.ac.uk/archives/
-
Hi Forfarian,
The cause of death was General Paralysis -3 years, so could it be possible that he was in an accident or taken ill in that area, so the family left him there. From the census, Montrose Royal Lunatic Asylum it appears all the inmates were male, not sure if that is normal.
Also downloaded his birth details - born 10th August baptised 23rd August 1835.
Regards
Moo
-
Hmmmm.
I looked into James Sutherland and Mary Ann Mackay, just in case I could connect them to my late cousin's tree. (I can't, at least not so far). James was the son of Alexander Sutherland and Marjory Reid.
I could not find the family in 1841. In 1851 there was a 16-year-old son Alexander, but no Robert. In 1861 there was a 9-year-old son enumerated without a given name, and in 1871 there was a 19-year-old son named Robert.
There appear to be two James Sutherlands married to Mary Mackays. James Sutherland married Mary Ann Mackay on 6 January 1831, and James Sutherland married Mary Mackay on 21 February 1833, both in Latheron.
The one in the census is listed as Mary Ann in 1861 and Maryan in 1871, so it looks rather as if your Robert could be the son of the other couple.
-
What do we reckon.....
1851 Census
Robert aged 16, West Helmsdale, Sutherland, Parents - James & Mary, siblings Margaret aged 17, John aged 14, Jean aged 10, Christy aged 7 and Charles aged 2.
Regards
Moo
-
Just had a thought with regards to
"I wonder what impelled Sutherlands from Caithness to move to Bathgate?"
Could it have had anything to do with the clearances ?
Regards
Moo
-
Yes, it could, though in the case of my cousin's family it was a bit later than the clearances, and their parents stayed put in Caithness all their lives, so I had more or less discounted that as far as they were concerned.
My puzzlement is not so much why they left Caithness, as why they chose Bathgate to settle in.
-
What do we reckon.....
Good find. There is a baptism of Jane on 25 September 1841, who is a close match for Jean aged 10, and Margaret could be the second Margaret listed under the first family.
-
http://www.scottish-places.info/towns/townfirst259.html
The above states that in the 1870's Bathgate was Booming Economically.
Regards
Moo
Becky - we would have to sort things out via personal email, give me a pm with yours and I will send over what I have.
-
http://www.scottish-places.info/towns/townfirst259.html
The above states that in the 1870's Bathgate was Booming Economically.
Yes, that was the time of the West Lothian shale oil industry, just a few years after my cousin's grandfather and great-uncle, and your Robert, moved there.
-
1841 Census
Robert Sutherland Age: 5
Address: W Helmsdale
Household Members:
Name Age
James Sutherland 40
Donald Sutherland 1
Mary Sutherland 30
Margret Sutherland 7
Regards Moo