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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Herefordshire => Topic started by: anto97 on Saturday 15 October 16 20:29 BST (UK)

Title: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname Penelope Parker
Post by: anto97 on Saturday 15 October 16 20:29 BST (UK)
Today I hit a brick wall. I got my great great grandmother's death certificate, but neither her parents name nor her maiden surname was written.

What should I do?
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Marmalady on Saturday 15 October 16 20:49 BST (UK)
What date / location are we talking about?

English/Welsh death certificates do not give parents names. I think (but may be wrong) maiden names were added in more modern times - certainly date & place of birth are a modern addition to the death certificate

Do you know when / where / who she married? If post 1837, her father's name and hopefully her age will be on the marriage certificate

Can you track her back through censuses? this should give place of birth

Once you know when & where she was born you need to check parish registers for her baptism -- with luck this will give both father and mother's names
You can then look for their marriage & births etc

Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: KGarrad on Saturday 15 October 16 20:55 BST (UK)
If she had children post 1st July 1837, then one of their Birth Certificates will contain her maiden name.
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 15 October 16 20:57 BST (UK)
Quote
I think (but may be wrong) maiden names were added in more modern times

You are not wrong - they were added from 1.4.1969
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: [Ray] on Saturday 15 October 16 20:58 BST (UK)

Quote
What should i do?

. . . . . Give us Rootschatters all the detail known about her
. . . . . and we WILL have a go at finding the missing bits

unless you really want to do it yourself?

Ray
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: anto97 on Sunday 16 October 16 17:32 BST (UK)
Thank you all for your replies.


Quote
What should i do?

. . . . . Give us Rootschatters all the detail known about her
. . . . . and we WILL have a go at finding the missing bits

unless you really want to do it yourself?

Ray

Her name was Penelope Parker and died in 1942.
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Girl Guide on Sunday 16 October 16 17:38 BST (UK)
Possibility for marriage?

Marriages Dec 1902 

Fletcher    Penelope        Leominster    6a   1233    
Parker    James        Leominster    6a   1233    

I see that her death was registered in Leominster.

Who was the informant on her death cert?
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Jool on Sunday 16 October 16 17:43 BST (UK)
I was about to post the same GG  ;)

The free preview of the 1939 Register shows a Penelope Parker living in Leominster b. 1878.  Also at the same address is a James Parker.
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: anto97 on Sunday 16 October 16 17:49 BST (UK)
Possibility for marriage?

Marriages Dec 1902 

Fletcher    Penelope        Leominster    6a   1233    
Parker    James        Leominster    6a   1233    

I see that her death was registered in Leominster.

Who was the informant on her death cert?

I hope it's the right one. I have no idea what her husband's name was.

I'll have to ask my grandfather the informant's name (He has the certificate)
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: josey on Sunday 16 October 16 17:54 BST (UK)
I hope it's the right one. I have no idea what her husband's name was.

I'll have to ask my grandfather the informant's name (He has the certificate)

Is this g g grandmother one of your grandfather's grandparents? If so, I expect your grandfather knows his 4 grandparents names.
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 16 October 16 17:54 BST (UK)
On the 1911 census for Penelope and James Parker, there are also two people with the surname Fletcher - Sarah Fletcher aged 27 and Annie Fletcher aged 6 months

And the only Penelope Fletcher in Leominster on 1901 is living at 45 Dishley St with parents Bartley and Eliza Fletcher, and siblings.
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: anto97 on Sunday 16 October 16 18:05 BST (UK)
I hope it's the right one. I have no idea what her husband's name was.

I'll have to ask my grandfather the informant's name (He has the certificate)

Is this g g grandmother one of your grandfather's grandparents? If so, I expect your grandfather knows his 4 grandparents names.

I asked him and he said his grandfather's name was Henry.

That's confusing...   ???
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 16 October 16 18:10 BST (UK)
Ok - he might be mis-remembering, or Penelope may have married again etc.

Have you worked backwards from the birth of your grandfather - i.e. do you know his parents?  (only tell us their names if they are deceased!)
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Girl Guide on Sunday 16 October 16 18:11 BST (UK)
Yes some head scratching here.

Your grandfather has simply said that his grandfather was called Henry -  Parker presumably.  He does not appear to have said who the informant was on Penelope's death certificate nor what the relationship was of the informant to Penelope.

Perhaps you could ask him again?  Are you in any position to see the cert for yourself at all?
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Jool on Sunday 16 October 16 18:16 BST (UK)
Maybe he has got a bit mixed up and Henry is his other grandfather.
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: anto97 on Sunday 16 October 16 18:24 BST (UK)
Yes some head scratching here.

Your grandfather has simply said that his grandfather was called Henry -  Parker presumably.  He does not appear to have said who the informant was on Penelope's death certificate nor what the relationship was of the informant to Penelope.

Perhaps you could ask him again?  Are you in any position to see the cert for yourself at all?

He lives in Edinburgh, I live in London.  ::)
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Girl Guide on Sunday 16 October 16 18:27 BST (UK)
Oh right OK, bit of a distance then!  I take it that he doesn't have a computer to send a scan to you then.
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Jool on Sunday 16 October 16 18:55 BST (UK)
Have you worked backwards from the birth of your grandfather - i.e. do you know his parents?  (only tell us their names if they are deceased!)

I think Spidermonkey's suggestion is the best way to go, until you can get more details from the death cert.
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: [Ray] on Sunday 16 October 16 19:00 BST (UK)
Hi

Maybe useful? . . . . .

A Penelope (Fletcher) Parker can be found in 1901 with her younger sister Sarah Fletcher  in Leominster.

Father Bartley(head), brother Bartley. ( Bartley is an apparent alternative for Bartholomew ) and the remainder of the family at 45 Dishley Street.

There is also a grand-dau named Violet Johnson (5)

2x doors away is a Parker family . . . .
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: anto97 on Sunday 16 October 16 19:23 BST (UK)
Oh right OK, bit of a distance then!  I take it that he doesn't have a computer to send a scan to you then.

Ha, that's true!

Hi

Maybe useful? . . . . .

A Penelope (Fletcher) Parker can be found in 1901 with her younger sister Sarah Fletcher  in Leominster.

Father Bartley(head), brother Bartley. ( Bartley is an apparent alternative for Bartholomew ) and the remainder of the family at 45 Dishley Street.

There is also a grand-dau named Violet Johnson (5)

2x doors away is a Parker family . . . .


Well, I didn't know that she had a sister (If she's the right person).

My grandfather told me something new: Her husband died before the Hyde Park protest.

Anyone who knows something about that, please tell us!
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 16 October 16 19:31 BST (UK)
Which particular Hyde Park Protest?!!!
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: KGarrad on Sunday 16 October 16 19:33 BST (UK)
My grandfather told me something new: Her husband died before the Hyde Park protest.

Anyone who knows something about that, please tell us!

Women's Social & Political Union perhaps?
"Women's Sunday" 1908

see: https://www.kent.ac.uk/sspssr/womenshistorykent/themes/suffrage/womenssunday.html
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: anto97 on Sunday 16 October 16 19:36 BST (UK)
Found it.

http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC19040420.2.91
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 16 October 16 19:38 BST (UK)
My grandfather told me something new: Her husband died before the Hyde Park protest.

Anyone who knows something about that, please tell us!

Women's Social & Political Union perhaps?
"Women's Sunday" 1908

see: https://www.kent.ac.uk/sspssr/womenshistorykent/themes/suffrage/womenssunday.html

Ok, if that is correct then we have wrong Penelope Parker, because her husband James was still alive in 1911 (for the census).
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 16 October 16 19:40 BST (UK)
Anto - what do you know for definite?  Are you 100% certain that the Penelope Parker who died in 1942 is your gt gt grandmother?
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: anto97 on Sunday 16 October 16 19:45 BST (UK)
Anto - what do you know for definite?  Are you 100% certain that the Penelope Parker who died in 1942 is your gt gt grandmother?

I searched for her too and the only one shown was the one living in Leominster, but I don't think that she was that one.
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 16 October 16 19:48 BST (UK)
Ok, so what do you know for absolutely sure? Even if it is starting with what might seem like pretty obvious things - such as when and where was your grandfather born?  What were his parents called?
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: anto97 on Sunday 16 October 16 19:53 BST (UK)
Ok, so what do you know for absolutely sure? Even if it is starting with what might seem like pretty obvious things - such as when and where was your grandfather born?  What were his parents called?

My grandfather was born in 1937 in Greece (his parents lived there for a couple of years). His parents name were James Blackwell and Theresa Parker.
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Girl Guide on Sunday 16 October 16 19:53 BST (UK)
Just for the record there is an army record for James Parker and his address at the time was given as c/o Bill Parker 41 Dishley Street, Leominster.
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 16 October 16 19:56 BST (UK)
Completely leftfield here, but there is a marriage between a Penelope Parker and a Henry Soar in Doncaster in 1914.  I haven't investigated it fully, but is it possible that Penelope remarried?

Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: anto97 on Sunday 16 October 16 19:57 BST (UK)
Just for the record there is an army record for James Parker and his address at the time was given as c/o Bill Parker 41 Dishley Street, Leominster.

So, may that James Parker be James Blackwell's father-in-law?  ???
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: anto97 on Sunday 16 October 16 19:59 BST (UK)
Completely leftfield here, but there is a marriage between a Penelope Parker and a Henry Soar in Doncaster in 1914.  I haven't investigated it fully, but is it possible that Penelope remarried?

So, if she remarried why didn't she changed her surname????
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 16 October 16 20:02 BST (UK)
Completely leftfield here, but there is a marriage between a Penelope Parker and a Henry Soar in Doncaster in 1914.  I haven't investigated it fully, but is it possible that Penelope remarried?

So, if she remarried why didn't she changed her surname????

I should have phrased things better, sorry!  Are you certain that Penelope Parker died in Leominster, or did you just find that Penelope Parker because she was the only one who died around the right time?  Is it possible that if Mr Parker died before c. 1908, Penelope remarried?
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: anto97 on Sunday 16 October 16 20:05 BST (UK)
Completely leftfield here, but there is a marriage between a Penelope Parker and a Henry Soar in Doncaster in 1914.  I haven't investigated it fully, but is it possible that Penelope remarried?

So, if she remarried why didn't she changed her surname????

I should have phrased things better, sorry!  Are you certain that Penelope Parker died in Leominster, or did you just find that Penelope Parker because she was the only one who died around the right time?  Is it possible that if Mr Parker died before c. 1908, Penelope remarried?

I sure that she didn't get married again. She was under 65 at the time of death. That matched pretty much with the Penelope Parker I found in freebmd, but the "Leominster" part is the one making me have second thoughts.
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 16 October 16 20:09 BST (UK)
I think we have pretty much established that the Penelope Parker who died in 1942 in Leominster was born, raised, married and died in Leominster, so I would have thought that the Leominster connection would have been relatively well known if that was the correct Penelope Parker.

Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: anto97 on Sunday 16 October 16 20:20 BST (UK)
I think we have pretty much established that the Penelope Parker who died in 1942 in Leominster was born, raised, married and died in Leominster, so I would have thought that the Leominster connection would have been relatively well known if that was the correct Penelope Parker.



If the correct Penelope Parker, is the one who died in Leominster in 1942, aged 62, then why can't I connect her to a husband named Henry and a daughter named Theresa?

Are there no indexed records or I miss some info?
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Jool on Sunday 16 October 16 20:22 BST (UK)
Ok, so what do you know for absolutely sure? Even if it is starting with what might seem like pretty obvious things - such as when and where was your grandfather born?  What were his parents called?

My grandfather was born in 1937 in Greece (his parents lived there for a couple of years). His parents name were James Blackwell and Theresa Parker.

I can't see a marriage between a James Blackwell & T(h)eresa Parker, did they marry in Greece? 
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: heywood on Sunday 16 October 16 20:23 BST (UK)
Same question as Jool plus is Leominster the right area for the family origins?
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 16 October 16 20:30 BST (UK)
I think we have pretty much established that the Penelope Parker who died in 1942 in Leominster was born, raised, married and died in Leominster, so I would have thought that the Leominster connection would have been relatively well known if that was the correct Penelope Parker.



If the correct Penelope Parker, is the one who died in Leominster in 1942, aged 62, then why can't I connect her to a husband named Henry and a daughter named Theresa?

Are there no indexed records or I miss some info?

If Theresa was born in England or Wales, and Penelope married Henry Parker in England or Wales, you should be able to connect them.  That's why I am not convinced the Leominster Penelope is the right person.  The Leominster Penelope married in 1902, and had had no children born alive by the 1911 census.  After the 1911 census, there are no children born in Leominster with surname Parker and mothers maiden name Fletcher.  At the moment, I have no evidence that Leominster Penelope had any living children at all (and certainly none called Theresa)
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: anto97 on Sunday 16 October 16 20:34 BST (UK)
Same question as Jool plus is Leominster the right area for the family origins?

No, Leominster was mentioned as the place of death of a Penelope Parker found on freebmd. I never heard of Leominster as my family origins.
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: anto97 on Sunday 16 October 16 20:38 BST (UK)
Ok, so what do you know for absolutely sure? Even if it is starting with what might seem like pretty obvious things - such as when and where was your grandfather born?  What were his parents called?

My grandfather was born in 1937 in Greece (his parents lived there for a couple of years). His parents name were James Blackwell and Theresa Parker.

I can't see a marriage between a James Blackwell & T(h)eresa Parker, did they marry in Greece?

Probably. They lived there for about 10 years. Maybe they met here and immigrated to Greece to get married and have children. But they returned to England, with the beginning of WW2 and the death of Penelope.
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: heywood on Sunday 16 October 16 20:43 BST (UK)
Where did they settle on their return?
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 16 October 16 20:45 BST (UK)
Similar to Heywood's question - with which part of the UK do you associate your grandfather's family with?  (e.g. I never knew my grandmother's family, but did know that they were all from the Glasgow area)
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: anto97 on Sunday 16 October 16 20:59 BST (UK)
Similar to Heywood's question - with which part of the UK do you associate your grandfather's family with?  (e.g. I never knew my grandmother's family, but did know that they were all from the Glasgow area)

Ι know that they lived in London.

I didn't expect that it would be so confusing, both for you and for me...
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 16 October 16 21:00 BST (UK)
Don't worry about confusion - that's all part of the fun  ;)
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 16 October 16 21:05 BST (UK)
Do you/your grandfather know when and where his parents died?  (This might give an indication of their birthdates)
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: anto97 on Sunday 16 October 16 21:07 BST (UK)
Tomorrow I'll contact my grandfather again asking more info.

Good night to all of you!  ;D

And a big THANK YOU! (even if we didn't find anything yet)
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Annette7 on Sunday 16 October 16 22:28 BST (UK)
Just to add that I am having problems with this too - so your grandfathers' surname is Blackwell and he was born 1937 Greece to a James Blackwell and Theresa (nee Parker).

I've look at British Army births and can find no Blackwell's born in Greece 1937, plus have looked at British Nationals Births overseas and again can find no Blackwell born in Greece 1937??

If we sort of go back to the beginning, if the family returned to the UK at start of WW2 then there should presumably be a death for James Blackwell here (there are many possibilities) but also for Theresa/Teresa Blackwell and there isn't one for her at all in the London area!

I'm baffled right now!

Annette



Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: jennifer c on Sunday 16 October 16 22:47 BST (UK)
There is a death for a Teresa Blackwell in 1986 Colchester born 1919?
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Jool on Sunday 16 October 16 23:56 BST (UK)
There is a death foe a Teresa Blackwell in 1986 Colchester born 1919?

1939 Register free preview shows a Teresa Blackwell b. 1919 living in Hornsey, Middlesex.  I other person officially closed.
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: Annette7 on Monday 17 October 16 01:08 BST (UK)
The Teresa Blackwell who died 1986 Colchester would appear to be the one in 1939 register at Hornsey.   

However, this cannot be the OP's Theresa.

Teresa Blackwell was newly married on the 1939 register - she had married a Frederick E. Blackwell in the June quarter 1939 Edmonton - she and her husband lived at same address in Hornsey for 20 years.

Back to the drawing board.

Annette
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: [Ray] on Monday 17 October 16 09:50 BST (UK)
Hi

Has your grand-father any brothers/sisters?

Can he remember any cousins/aunts/uncles?


Ray
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: [Ray] on Monday 17 October 16 09:53 BST (UK)
Hi

Just for notes/elimination, there is a 3rd reference to Dishley St, Leominster in addition to those already mentioned. . . . . . "Henery Parker" in 1901

Ray
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: iolaus on Wednesday 19 October 16 09:28 BST (UK)
Do you know when Teresa was born?

Getting her birth certificate will give you the maiden name
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: josey on Wednesday 19 October 16 09:36 BST (UK)
I think until we hear from anto97 regarding definite information gained from his/her grandfather about more recent generations, we cannot keep on surmising about the generations before. As we all know it is essential for accuracy that we follow back from ourselves, with proof, for every generation & not jump too far too soon  :)

Josey
Title: Re: How to find great-great grandmother's maiden surname?
Post by: anto97 on Friday 21 October 16 17:31 BST (UK)
UPDATE: Sorry for not posting for while, I got the flu and I couldn't write anything. Luckily, I got in touch with my grandfather, who lives in Edinburgh, and he provided me with many info about my grandmother and her maiden name. I got shocked, as he told me that Penelope gave up her daughter for adoption to an old woman. The woman named her Theresa and when Theresa got 18, she found out that Penelope was her biological mother. Then, she immigrated to Greece with James Blackwell, they got married there, their children were born there, among them it was my grandfather's mother, Vivian Blackwell. My grandfather was the one to come to the UK and settle here.

P.S.: I don't know the name of the woman that adopted my great grandmother. I'll have to go to Greece and search for it.

If I knew that adoption thing I would not post this thread... But hope never dies!  :D