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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Shropshire => Topic started by: westernwombat on Tuesday 22 November 16 14:50 GMT (UK)
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Thomas is a hard name to research in Wales and nearby localities.
On a very brief visit to Ellesmere Cemetery from Australia earlier this year, I saw the recently-erected gravesite of my great great uncle, David Arthur Thomas, and thought the renewal of that site may indicate some interest in family history by his descendants.
The information I have is not well validated, but at present it is what I am working on:
David Arthur Thomas, chr. 18 Feb 1864, Ellesmere, Shropshire; died 27 Sep 1952 in Ellesmere, Shropshire; his wife Annie, b. abt. 1861, Ellesmere, Shropshire; d. 6 Mar 1930 in Ellesmere, Shropshire; daughters Marion Louisa abt. 1896-1976; Bertha Annie abt. 1897-1976.
His brother Walter Thomas (b. 5 Dec 1861) is my great great grandfather. Their parents were - not certain of this - Edward Thomas (abt. 1836-1926, born The Gadlas, near Ellesmere) and Elizabeth (abt. 1833-1892).
Walter married Margaret Jane Jones, who was born abt. 1859 in Selatyn, Shrophire, chr. 27 Nov 1859 in Stoke Saint Milborough, Shropshire, and d. 24 Jan 1910 in Ellesmere. Their wedding date was 17 Dec 1883 in Criftins, Shropshire.
Their children included my grandfather, Clement Thomas b. 26 Jan 1892, The Gadlas, Ellesmere, Shropshire, who migrated to Western Australia after 1900 and married Jeanie McCully at Subiaco, Western Australia on 19 Jun 1915. Jean was born in Partick, Lanarkshire, Scotland on 6 Dec 1890 and died 19 Sep 1966 at Alfred Cove, Western Australia. Clement Thomas died in Mandurah, Western Australia on 17 Dec 1961.
Other children of Walter and Margaret were Ethel, Florence Elizabeth, Margaret Blanche, and Olive M. Thomas.
I would like to know more about the individuals from my grandfather's siblings back to Edward Thomas, but my researches to date have come across some individuals with the same names and birth years, born in Ellesmere, so has not been very fruitful. Also, groups like FreeREG/FreeBMD (UK) and BillionGraves haven't commenced looking at Ellesmere records.
So, local knowledge would be helpful.
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Here is the family of David A (bn 1864ish) with parents Edward and Elizabeth
He does have a sibling Walter , but he seems older than an 1861 birth
Also has lots of other siblngs!
1871
1 Church Street Elsmere
Edward 35 circular sawyer bn Denbighshire
Elizabeth 39
Edwin A 13
Walter 12
Rosa 10
Louisa 9
ALice 8
David A 6
HArry 5
Alfred 3
Marion 1
Willer 3 mths all bar Dad bn Ellesmere
When "your" David marries, who does he name as father? Is it Edward, a sawyer? Likewise when "your" Walter marries?
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FreeBMD does cover deaths in Ellesmere! ;D
But you need to understand the Registration District(s) concerned?
Ellesmere Rural and Ellesmere Urban parishes, from 1935 to 2005, came under the Oswestry Registration District.
see: http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/oswestry.html
Ellesmere Registration District itself was abolished in 1935
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/ellesmere.html
From FreeBMD:
Deaths, September qtr 1952
Oswestry Registration District vol 9a, page 113
Thomas, David A age 88
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Where did you get Walters birth as Dec 1861 from?
If that is correct, then the family I found cant be the right one, as here they are earlier in 1861 with Walter already age 2
1861
Ellesmere
Edward 25 sawyer bn Montgomeryshire
Elizabeth 28 bn Ellesmere
Walter 2 bn Ellesmere
Rosa 10 mths bn Ellesmere
Alterntively, if the Dec 1861 birthdate is correct, then his parents may not be Edward and Elizabeth, or at least not these ones who also have David Arthur.
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@KGarrad, thank you for the heads-up on how to find Ellesmere records in FreeBMD
@lizdb, I have some very ropey information that needs checking. The birthdates and names given to me by a cousin, obtained about 10 years ago, can possibly match those you have shown from 1871 census. I will give them below -
Edwin Ainsworth - 1857/1858
Walter - 1858, 1860, and 5 Dec 1861 (!)
Rose - 1860
Louisa - 1862
Alice - 1863
David A. - 1865
Harry - 1866
Alfred - 1868
Marian - 1870
Wilton - 1871
Albert - 1873
Arthur - 1864
These are supposedly all children of Edward Thomas, all born in Ellesmere.
Edward - born about 1836 in Montgomeryshire, ? Wales - a circular sawyer / picture framer, who married Elizabeth, born in Ellesmere about 1833.
I found an Edward Thomas born in Llansaintffraid, Montgomeryshire who I think is the same; died 28 Nov 1926 in Ellesmere.
For Walter (son of Edward & Elizabeth), my cousin gave me a document with birth dates of 1858, 1860, and 1861. The more exact information: that he was born 1858 last quarter, record from Sup. registrar's District of Ellesmere, Vol 6a, Page 651. I have seen the index, have not ordered the image. Walter's occupation: carpenter.
Their marriage was (according to my cousin's doc), last quarter 1883, Ellesmere, Volume 6a, page 1421, District Ellesmere.
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For Walter (son of Edward & Elizabeth), my cousin gave me a document with birth dates of 1858, 1860, and 1861. The more exact information: that he was born 1858 last quarter, record from Sup. registrar's District of Ellesmere, Vol 6a, Page 651. I have seen the index, have not ordered the image.
OK - 1858 makes sense. So we have got the right family!
Now we have found the right family on a census as a starting point, remind me what we are looking for?
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If you are trying to go back further, then this may give you a clue.
Eldest son, Edwin A, was not at home in 1861, though can be seen in 1871 with parents so had not died.
This is possibly him with Grandparents on census night
1861
Watergate Street, Ellesmere
Thomas Lloyd 68 painter and glazier bn Ellesmere
Sarah 69 wife bn Blackburn Lancs
Emma Lloyd 40 dtr unm bn Ellesmere
Edwin Thomas 3 grandson bn Ellesmere
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Looking good
MArriage
April/May/Jun 1857
Ellesmere
ref 6a 1264
Edward Thomas / Elizabeth Lloyd
That cert will hopefully give fathers names (Elizabeth's seems to be Thomas the painter and glazier on the face of it)
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1851
Watergate Street
Thomas Lloyd 58 painter & Glazier bn Ellesmere
Sarah 59 bn Blackburn LAncs
Emma 30 dtr unm
Elizabeth 19 dtr unm
all tying up nicely for the Lloyds
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And just to round it off
1841
Ellesmere
Thomas Lloyd 40 painter Y
Sarah 45 N
Edward 15 artist Y
Emma 15 Y
Ann 13 Y
Elizabeth 4 Y
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For Walter (son of Edward & Elizabeth), my cousin gave me a document with birth dates of 1858, 1860, and 1861. The more exact information: that he was born 1858 last quarter, record from Sup. registrar's District of Ellesmere, Vol 6a, Page 651. I have seen the index, have not ordered the image.
OK - 1858 makes sense. So we have got the right family!
Now we have found the right family on a census as a starting point, remind me what we are looking for?
Yes, the children and their ages seem to check Ok with the rough DOB I have, and the 1858 DOB for Walter fits both Census ages for him, and his wife. The more precise DOB, 5 Dec 1861 (of the 3 that I have !!) may be that of another Walter who was born in Ellesmere.
So that has clarified that the family is correct. I will need to check further details for all of Walter's siblings, but haven't got far with David A. (Arthur) Thomas, whose grave I'm pretty sure is the new one in Ellesmere Cemetery with ages and death dates of David Arthur, wife Annie, and both daughters (the latter, aged 78 and 80 years).
In particular, I would like to know more about the family of David A., and those two daughters, because of anecdotal information from my father when he and my mother visited Ellesmere in ? mid-1980s and were entertained by "two elderly aunts", one of whom arrived on a motor bike / scooter.
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1881 brings more confirmation that the Lloyd marriage was the right one (you may already have this and thus have seen the Lloyd in-law)
1881
Church Street Ellesmere
Edward 45 picture framer bn Montgomeryshire
Elizabeth 48
Walter 21
Arthur 17
Henry 15
Alfred 13
Marian 12
Wilton 10
Albert 8
Emma Lloyd sister in law 60 unm
All bn Ellesmere apart from Edward
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We aren't allowed to do 1911 look ups, but the index suggests a very definite candidate for your David, because it gives his middle name to confirm we are looking at the right person. Well worth a look at the entry
Here is 1901
Church Street Ellesmere
David A Thomas 35 timber merchant bn Ellesmere
Annie 37 bn Herts Ashridge
MArion L 5
Bertha A 3 children bn Ellesmere
though I see you already have these daughters names. And presumably they are matching the names on the gravestone.
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Probate index entry
MArion Louisa Thomas of THe Lilacs 30 Wharf Road Ellesmere Salop died 25th Oct 1976 Probate Newcastle upon Tyne Jan 1977
Death
Oct/Nov/Dec 1976
Oswestry Registration District
ref 30 0159
Marion Louisa Thomas
age 80
dob 7th Jan 1896
Not spotting Bertha's death
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That's really helpful, @lizdb - probably as far as it can be taken with the 1911 limitation (privacy I guess, as here).
Family gossip has it that the house at Church St, which was for sale in 2014 (I met the new owner in May this year) had Thomas family occupants for 2 or 3 generations. Interesting that David A. and family lived there, at least up until 1901 census.
Thank you for your on-the-spot researching! You must be a professional genealogist?
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No - just been doing it for over 30 years!
You can look at the 1911 census - it is just that we are not allowed to do look ups for other people and post the results on here for copyright reasons.
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Marion and Bertha: I have some info from my photo of the shared gravestone.
Am I allowed to post that? Maybe someone is interested.
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David had left Church Street by his death:
Probate index entry:
David Arthur Thomas of Wharf Road Ellesmere died 27 Sept 1952 Probate to George Morgan retired station master and Frederic Crampton Pym solicitor
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Text from gravestone (image below)
In loving memory of Annie,
the beloved wife of
David Arthur Thomas,
who died March 6th 1930,
aged 69 years.
"Father in thy gracious keeping
leave we now our loved one sleeping."
also
David Arthur Thomas,
died September 27th 1952,
aged 87 years.
also Bertha Annie Renshaw,
died March 20th 1976,
aged 78 years.
also Marion Louise Thomas
died October 25th 1976,
aged 80 years
beloved daughters of the above
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OK that's why I never found Bertha's death, I was assuming she was a spinster aunt and thus still Thomas!
You have most of the info about David and his children there, don't you! I think I am finding things you already know.
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Marriage
Jul/Aug/Sep 1923
Ellesmere
ref 6a 1631
Bertha Annie Thomas / Percy A Renshaw
I cant see any births for Renshaw with mums maiden name Thomas, at least not in that area