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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: David Winther on Thursday 08 December 16 17:41 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I am trying to research my great-grandmothers family from/in Ireland. I seem to have run into a brick wall. If it is the end of the line I can accept that, but I thought I would ask if anyone else here might have some insight or be able to help me out.
My Great Grandmother was named Elizabeth L(ouise?) Charters. She was born on 18 June 1896.
Her birth registration appears in the Ireland, Civil Registration Births Index Vol 1, page 332. I haven't seen what this page actually looks like other than finding the data from it on-line.
The 1901 Census shows them living on Charlotte Street, Windsor Ward, Antrim.
Family members with age:
Robert Charters 60
Mary Charters 45
Fanny Charters 12
Eliza Charters 4
Charlotts Charters 10
Kate Charters 18
Robert W Charters 2
Finding this information was huge as prior to this all we knew was the names of her brother and sisters.
So, as the whispered family legend goes, her Mother Mary died young (I have reason to believe this happened in 1908. I had a found a civil record via the irishgeneology.ie site but now I just get an internal server error when trying to access it.) Sometime after that her father Robert said that he "could no longer take care of them" and the children became orphaned. The family does not appear in the 1911 census. I did find her brother later listed in a school for boys in Dublin in the 1911 census. It is a stretch to put that fact together but the his name and age match so its a best guess that it was him.
I haven't been able to find any kind of death certificate, marriage certificate etc for her parents. I haven't been able to find her mother's maiden name - which is something I would greatly like to do as this may open up more doors to me.
My great grandmother went to work for a doctor in Belfast. During this time "she became pregnant." We do not know the exact circumstances of this or who she became pregnant by, the family feeling is the Doctor but no one can say for sure.
So, as a pregnant orphaned young woman my great-grandmother headed to the US/Canada to meet up with her sisters already living there. I can find no crossing information for her.
She gave birth to her son John F. Charters in Detroit Michigan. She later married my great-grandfather Floyd Stephens in South Dakota (we believe she was a mail order bride). Floyd was a widower with 2 children.
I am trying in vain to find any information on her parents or any other information from her time in Ireland. She never spoke about her father. Apparently (and understandably) there was some hard feelings there.
Elizabeth died in 1986.
I would greatly appreciate any help anyone can send my way!
Thank you very much!
-Dave
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Birth certificate for Elizabeth Charters 18 June 1896, 31 Craigmore st., parents Robert & Mary (Glancey)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02164/1820179.pdf
Link to family in 1901 census-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Windsor_Ward/Charlotte_Street/975083
Is this the 1908 Mary Charters death that you found? (doesn't seem to match the Belfast family)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1908/05479/4534370.pdf
Robert Winslow Charters born 1899- 19 Apsley St.-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02021/1775616.pdf
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Hi and welcome to rootschat ...What about this record US Border Crossings from Canada
Elizabeth Charters age 21 birth year about 1900 Ireland last address she came from ..Sister Mrs Charlotte Kirkpatrick address hard to make out 173 La?AvWindsor ..Going to Dr L C Conley 99 Tuxedo Avenue Detroit Michigan
Date 24 January 1921
Rosie
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Birth of Charlotte Charters-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1891/02381/1888579.pdf
? Charlotte Kirkpatrick born 1910- mother Kathleen Charters-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01574/1634501.pdf
Kathleen/Kate shown as born Longford (although 1901 says Belfast)
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Cromac/Vernon_Street/167783
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Fanny Charters born 1899-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02456/1912700.pdf
Robert Charters in 1911-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/South_Dock/Grand_Canal_Street__South_Side/81588
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I see by her marriage to Floyd Stephens she said she was a widow ? And gives her birth place as Canada ..not seeing anymore immigration records ..Aghadowey done brilliant job of information in Ireland
Rosie
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Children of William James Kirkpatrick & Kathleen/Kate Charters-
Robert Winslow (1905) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01765/1695042.pdf
William James (1907) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1907/01701/1674763.pdf
Janetta (1908) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01658/1661346.pdf
Charlotte (1910) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01574/1634501.pdf
Stuart (1912)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1912/01494/1607638.pdf
Stuart's 1912 birth gives father's residence as Canada!
Added- marriage of William Kirkpatrick & Kathleen Charters (1904)- gives her father as dairyman-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1904/10205/5713749.pdf
Kathleen G. Kirkpatrick died 1950 Detroit, Michigan
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KFWP-7V9
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Robert Winslow Kirkpatrick died 1917 Ontario-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JKWS-3YV
Kathleen Kirkpatrick & children Robert, Janetta, Charlotte, Stewart went to Canada 1912-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-618S-DHL?mode=g&i=13&cc=1823240
Added- William James & Kathleen Kirkpatrick witnesses to marriage of Robert Kirkpatrick & Charlotte Charters-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939K-TTNW-Z?mode=g&i=1000&cc=1784216
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Wonder what's going on here :-\
A Robert Winslow Charters (born c1900 Ireland) m.(1922 Ontario) Janette Elizabeth Kirkpatrick- his father James Charters (mother not known) & hers Warner Kirkpatrick!
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894V-43R1?mode=g&i=173&cc=1784216
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There is a notice in the Larne Times of 3 February 1923 wanting to know the whereabouts of Kitty, Lizzie, Charlotte, Bobbie and Fanny Charters, last heard of 12 years previously in Ontario West, Canada, information gratefully received by their mother Mrs. Mary Charters of 24 Henrietta Street, Belfast.
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There is a notice in the Larne Times of 3 February 1923 wanting to know the whereabouts of Kitty, Lizzie, Charlotte, Bobbie and Fanny Charters, last heard of 12 years previously in Ontario West, Canada, information gratefully recieved by their mother Mrs. Mary Charters of 24 Henrietta Street, Belfast.
Well done for finding that one! So, the 1908 death can't be their mother Mary.
Added- could this be Mary? born Longford, widow-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Cromac/Vernon_Street/167766
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Robert Charters, age 46, dairyman, died 10 Feb.1903 at 2 Mornington St., Belfast- daughter Kate was informant-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05673/4598233.pdf
So, did the story about parents get mixed up and was it the father who died and mother couldn't look after the children?
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... Robert Charters, age 46, dairyman, died 10 Feb.1903 at 2 Mornington St., Belfast- daughter Kate was informant-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05673/4598233.pdf
Buried here with several others:
https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialSearch.aspx?GraveSection=L2&GraveNumber=326&CemeteryName=City%20Cemetery
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Robert Charters buried City Cemetery-
https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6429.21289
Other burials in same plot- the 1st 3 confirm that this must be the father Robert Charters in the plot
Ann Charters (age 8 yrs) died 1893
https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6337.5525
Annie Charters (1 month) died later in 1893
https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6341.6250
William James Kirkpatrick (10 Months) died 1907
https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6119.32447
also 2 others
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Is this mother Mary Charters dying in Larne?
Charters Mary of 93 Old Glenarm Road Larne county Antrim widow died 22 November 1940 at the District Hospital Larne county Antrim Administration Belfast 9 January to Nancy Boyd married woman. Effects £78 4s. 1d.
see reply #16
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Daughter Ann Charters born 1885-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02628/1969613.pdf
died 1893 phthisis (tuberculosis)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1893/05996/4705948.pdf
Daughter Ann Charters born 1893-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1893/02285/1857827.pdf
died 1893 bronchitis-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1893/05988/4703322.pdf
William James Kirkpatrick's death- 'asphyxia due to accidentally overlain in bed'
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05524/4548496.pdf
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Is this mother Mary Charters dying in Larne?
Charters Mary of 93 Old Glenarm Road Larne county Antrim widow died 22 November 1940 at the District Hospital Larne county Antrim Administration Belfast 9 January to Nancy Boyd married woman. Effects £78 4s. 1d.
Mary Charters of 24 Henrietta Street died of bronchitis & cardiac failure at 51 Lisburn Road Belfast (now the Belfast City Hospital) on 30 December 1925, reported age 57, she was recorded as a stitcher.
The occupier of that address on street directories either side of 1923-25 (when we know Mary was there) was a James Quinn (ie. these folk in the 1911 census, but she may have been simply boarding with them):
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Windsor_Ward/Henrietta_Street/187421/
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Another notice in Larne Times, 9 Dec.1922 "know the abouts Kitty Charters, Lizzie Charters, Charlotte Charters Bobbie Charters, and Fanny Charters, last heard twelve years ago in Ontario West, Canada. Information would be thankfully received their mother, Mrs. Mary Charters, Henrietta Street, Bel-"
23 Dec.1922 "CHARTERS—Wanted to know the whereabouts of Kitty Charters, L.W Charters. Charlotte Charters, Bobbie Charters, and Fanny Charters, last heard of twelve years a0 in Ontario West, Canada. Information"
30 Dec.1922 "CHARTERS—Wanted to know the whereabouts of Kitty Charters. Lizzie Chartere. Charlotte Charters, Bobbie Charters, end Fanny Charters, last heard of twelve years ago in Ontario West, Canada. Information"
6 Jan.1923 "CHARTERS—Wanted to know the whereabouts of Kitty Charters, Lizzie Charters, Charlotte Charters, Bobbie Charters, and Fanny Charters, last heard twelve years ago in Ontario West, Canada. Information"
13 Jan.1923 "CHARTERS —Wanted to know the whereabouts of Kitty Charters, Lizzie Charters, Charlotte Charters, Bobbie Charters, and Fanny Charters, last"
This sounds like a mother who really wanted to get in touch with her children.
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... This sounds like a mother who really wasnt to get in touch with her children.
Yes, the notices ran from 9 December 1922 to 24 February 1923.
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... Stuart (1912)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1912/01494/1607638.pdf
Stuart's 1912 birth gives father's residence as Canada!
Added- marriage of William Kirkpatrick & Kathleen Charters (1904)- gives her father as dairyman-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1912/01494/1607638.pdf ...
Marriage below (instead of previous birth re-pasted):
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1904/10205/5713749.pdf
Edited to add: Reply #6 amended by aghadowey after this post to correct the link
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I see by her marriage to Floyd Stephens she said she was a widow ? And gives her birth place as Canada ..not seeing anymore immigration records ..Aghadowey done brilliant job of information in Ireland
Rosie
Yes, I saw that as well. She was never married prior to that. I think that was more of a "I don't want to look like an unwed mother" type of thing as she was getting married for the first time with a child already. Different times for sure.
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In a word I am AMAZED at what all of you turned up in such a short period of time! I can't thank you enough! This will rock some of my relation for sure! It's going to take me some time to digest all of this! If anyone else finds anything please don't hold back!
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Children of William James Kirkpatrick & Kathleen/Kate Charters-
Robert Winslow (1905) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01765/1695042.pdf
William James (1907) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1907/01701/1674763.pdf
Janetta (1908) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01658/1661346.pdf
Charlotte (1910) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01574/1634501.pdf
Stuart (1912)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1912/01494/1607638.pdf
Stuart's 1912 birth gives father's residence as Canada!
Added- marriage of William Kirkpatrick & Kathleen Charters (1904)- gives her father as dairyman-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1912/01494/1607638.pdf
Kathleen G. Kirkpatrick died 1950 Detroit, Michigan
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KFWP-7V9
Yes, the Kirpatricks (Kathleen Charters) are my great-grandmother's sister. They do live in Canada. Kathleen was the olderst child so she must have moved to Canada well before my GG left Ireland.
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Robert Charters, age 46, dairyman, died 10 Feb.1903 at 2 Mornington St., Belfast- daughter Kate was informant-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05673/4598233.pdf
So, did the story about parents get mixed up and was it the father who died and mother couldn't look after the children?
I had the same thought! It could be entirely possible!
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Birth certificate for Elizabeth Charters 18 June 1896, 31 Craigmore st., parents Robert & Mary (Glancey)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02164/1820179.pdf
The majority of the information I inherited from my Uncle Stephens about my "Grammy's" back story was on a handwritten envelope that she had listed the children her siblings had and also had:
Kilarney
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Charters
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Belfast
Clancey - (then a very hard to read word, which I think now must say "Mother"
(But the word "clancey" is very clear, so I assume that the "Glancey" stated above in the birth cert should really read "Clancey"
My Aunt Stephens also had written in some of the information "Lived in County Cork? ? ? ? ?"
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Robert Charters, age 46, dairyman, died 10 Feb.1903 at 2 Mornington St., Belfast- daughter Kate was informant-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05673/4598233.pdf
So, did the story about parents get mixed up and was it the father who died and mother couldn't look after the children?
This doesn't fit with the 1901 census information that lists him as being 60 here: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Windsor_Ward/Charlotte_Street/975083/
Now, it is very possible that his age is listed incorrectly. And he could have still died first when the children were young. It lists his occupation as "Clark" any idea what that might be? I assume it is a clerk.
BUT it also lists his and Mary's birthplace as County Longford! I hadn't noticed that earlier!
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I think I have found Robert Charters baptism info via the Rootsireland.ie site in Longford County. A 24 Oct 1840 birthdate fits the census numbers.
If you have the subscrption: http://longford.rootsireland.ie/view_detail.php?recordid=1355710&type=bch&recordCentre=longford&page=1
Shows his father was also Robert Charters with his mother Frances Charters. With my grandmother's sister being named Frances as well I take this as a good sign.
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William James Kirkpatrick (m. Kathleen Charters 1904) and Robert Hugh Kirkpatrick (m. Charlotte Charters 1914) were sons of Hugh Kirkpatrick and Catherine Such who married in 1882.
Robert Hugh b. 1890:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1890/02445/1909357.pdf
William? b. 1883:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02752/2011066.pdf
Hugh (father James) Kirkpatrick and 'Kezia' (father Thomas) Such m. 1882:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1882/10964/8007840.pdf
Kirkpatrick family in 1901:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Cromac/Gosford_Street/969509/
Catherine (Such) Kirkpatrick died in 1904 and was buried in Belfast City Cemetery Public Ground:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1904/05621/4581190.pdf
https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=7791.34271
Kirkpatrick family in 1911:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Pottinger__part_of_/Kenbaan_Street/221728/
In the above 1901 & 1911 census returns, note the daughter Janetta Elizth / Jeanette Elizabeth Kirkpatrick in relation to reply #8 (where in the 1922 marriage to Robert Winslow Charters, the bride of that name gave her mother's name as Catherine Such). Here's her birth:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02153/1816556.pdf
A 23 year old Janet Kirkpatrick travelling with a 72 year old pensioner Hugh Kirkpatrick arrived on the Megantic from Liverpool to Quebec in May 1920, the associated arrivals form showed her forename as Janetta and said that she was going to her brother William Kirkpatrick in Mitchell, Ontario.
So looks like the Kirkpatrick and Charters families intermarried through 3 siblings.
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The mystery about 'Warner' Kirkpatrick at reply #8 is solved:
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/136968/KIRKPATRICK,%20R
Private R Kirkpatrick died 1917: Son of Hugh Warner Kirkpatrick, of Belfast, Ireland; husband of Charlotte Kirkpatrick, of IO/3, Louis Avenue, Windsor, Ontario.
You will see several similar repetitions if you google 'Hugh Warner Kirkpatrick', also, there appears to be someone of that name in the card manifests of individuals entering through the Port of Detroit, Michigan, 1906-1954, it is associated with the name Hugh W. Simpson and I see a tree online owned by 'David Winther' (you?) with Simpsons on it, so I imagine you might recognise this connection (Charlotte remarried?).
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Now something speculative, a marriage in Belfast in 1917 between a George Smith and a Janetta Elizabeth Kirkpatrick of 10 Constance Street, the bride's father given as Hugh Kirkpatrick:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1917/09750/5538455.pdf
Intriguingly, the 1918 Belfast street directory shows the following entry for Constance Street: 10. Kirkpatrick, H. W. (possibly Hugh Warner?)
http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/ccomplete1918_b.htm
The 1920 Liverpool-Quebec passenger list and arrivals form (mentioned @ reply #27) was for Janet / Janetta Kirkpatrick and stated that she was single, so the 1917 marriage is perhaps just a co-incidence of names, just worth noting for now until it can be ruled in or out.
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... it is associated with the name Hugh W. Simpson and I see a tree online owned by 'David Winther' (you?) with Simpsons on it, so I imagine you might recognise this connection (Charlotte remarried?) ...
The online tree owned by 'David Winther' only shows the surname 'Simpson' for Charlotte's husband, no forename, so I'll post here the marriage of widow Charlotte Kirkpatrick to Albert John Simpson in 1920, her parents given as Robert Charters and Mary 'Gleacy' :
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-L1P4-9H7R?mode=g&i=191&cc=1784216
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Gravestone of Hugh W. Kirkpatrick and Janett E. Charters:
http://geneofun.on.ca/names/photo/789809?PHPSESSID=671963166f6b5010c5aed477617dfdf3
Edited to add: And these possibilities (there are other Charters in that cemetery who may be related, you can search the website)...
http://geneofun.on.ca/names/photo/789953?PHPSESSID=70dd5eb610455af004f7bbb050c9f9f2
http://www.geneofun.on.ca/names/photo/789803
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Tracing back to England wouldn't be something I'm strong at, I'm sure others are better placed to help, but I couldn't help but notice in the 1871 England census a 17 year old Kessia Such in Church Street, Swinton Yorkshire, born in Newcastle, parents Thomas Such, 42, a bricklayer and Matilda, 32, also siblings William T. Such and Tom A. Such, just a possibility for Hugh Kirkpatrick's wife.
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Since you wanted to know about Eliza Charters' life in Belfast I did a timeline to clarify a few things.
c1883 Kate Charters born
1 Dec.1885 Ann Charters born 15 Catherine St. North (father labourer, mother Glancey)
1880- CATHERINE ST NO (Little May St to Henrietta St- nr intersection Hamilton St) 15. Twigg, Mary, boarding house keeper (1890 Wm Vance, coachbuilder)
15 Oct.1889 Fanny Charters born 17 Stanfield St. (father labourer, mother Glancey)
1890- Stanfield St (Murphy St to Stewart St) 17. McCauley, David, labourer. Craigmore St (Bankmore St to Lindsay St) 8- Mrs Porter, 31- Margaret Potter.
5 Sept.1891 Charlotte Charters born 31 Craigmore St.(father labourer, mother Glancy)
11 July 1893 Ann Charters died 8? Craigmore St. (age 7)
12 Nov.1893 Ann Charters born 31 Craigmore St. (father labourer, mother Glancy)
11 Dec.1893 Annie Charters died 31 Craigmore St. (1 month)
18 June 1896 Elizabeth “Lizzie” Charters born 31 Craigmore St. (father labourer, mother Glancey)
14 Oct.1899 Robert Winslow “Bobbie” Charters born 19 Apsley St, (father clerk, mother Glancey)
1901- Apsley St (Bankmore St to Donegall Pass) 17, 19. Vacant. Charters, Robt., clerk, 2 Holmes St (off Bruce St)
31 Mar.1901 (census) Charlotte St.
10 Feb.1903 Robert Charters died at Mornington St (age 46?, dairyman)
12 July 1904 Kathleen Charters (dairymaid, 9 Clarence Pl., father dairyman) married William Kirkpatrick
25 Nov.1905 Robert Winslow Kirkpatrick born 31 Powerscourt St.
18 May 1907 William James Kirkpatrick born 17 Coyle’s Place
4 Aug.1907 William James Kirkpatrick died 17 Coyle’s Pl. (10 months)
16 June 1908 Janetta Kirkpatrick born 17 Coyle’s Place
4 June 1910 Charlotte Kirkpatrick born 27 Lake St.
1911 census Mary Charters visitor Vernon St. (religion R.C.)
1911 census William & Kathleen (Charters) Kirkpatrick at Vernon St.
1911 census Robert Winslow Charters at Boys Home in Dublin
5 June 1912 Stuart Kirkpatrick born 50 Vernon St. (father Canada)
Oct.1912 Kathleen (Charters) Kirkpatrick & children to Ontario
13 Feb.1914 Robert Kirkpatrick married Charlotte Charters (mother Glancy)
1917 Robert Winslow Kirkpatrick died Ontario
24 Jan.1921 Charlotte (Charters) Kirkpatrick in Ontario, Elizabeth Charters to Detroit
Dec.1922/Feb.1923 Mrs. Mary Charters, 24 Henrietta St. Belfast, looking for children Kitty, Lizzie, Charlotte, Bobbie & Fanny last in Ontario c1911
30 Dec.1925 Mary Charters, 24 Henrietta St. Belfast, died City Hospital
1950 Kathleen Kirkpatrick died Detroit
You can see from the records that Mary's maiden name was Glancey (Glancy, etc.)
Marriage for Robert & Mary?
Birth for Kathleen?
George ‘Pottie’ and Agnes Atkinson buried Charters plot in City Cemetery
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Cromac/Silvergrove_Street/167038
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With the health warning that this is based on transcribed record, Kathleen / Kate was baptised as Catherine Charters on 21 January 1884 in St. Malachy's Belfast (RC), the date of birth given was 1 February 1883. Ann, Francis and Charlotte Charters were also baptised in St. Malachy's, the latter 2 together when they were several years old (a comment was annotated to that effect). So, a clear indication that the marriage of parents Robert Charters and Mary Glancy was a 'mixed' marriage.
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Don't think this has been mentioned before but Fanny, Charlotte & Robert came to Canada as Home children.
8 May 1908 "Tunisian" arrived Montreal from Liverpool, England: Fanny Charters (17) & Charlotte (14) in a party under the care of Mrs. Merry going to Hespler, Ontario.
In 1911 census for Hibbert Twp, Perth South, Ontario, Fanny is a domestic in the household of Robert Graham (born Nov.1892 Ireland, to Canada 1908, Anglican).
She married 12 Mar.1921 to Stewart Ruttan.
12 May 1913 "Corsican" arrived Montreal from Liverpool, England (departed 3 May): Robert Charters (13) in conducted party under Mrs. Merry going to Hespeler, Ontario.
"group of 87 MacPherson children accompanied by Mrs. Merry and en route to Stratford or Hespeler, Ontario, Canada"
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/dbsig-quick-search.php?dbsig_num=1&p3_place=Corsican&view=10217
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On a general point and at fear of contradiction, the name 'Robert Winslow Charters' seems to me a very singular name and it also seems like stretching co-incidence too far to disregard any connection to someone with that same name in the county of interest (based on Robert senior's birthplace as stated in the 1901 census return for house 6 in Charlotte Street), for example, as mentioned in these couple of early 1840s newspaper notices:
Thursday 1 October 1840: On Monday, the 21st instant, Robert Winslow Charters, Esq., of Aughboy, Longford, of a son and heir
Friday 25 February 1842: INSOLVENT DEBTORS' COURT. Robert Winslow Charters, late of Mount-street, Dublin; and previously of Longford, co. Longford; and formerly of Aughaboy, said co. esq.
There is also an 1864 newspaper notice offering for sale at auction the townlands of Aughaboy and Killeter in county Longford, on lease for three lives with a fine on the fall of a life, the last renewal being in 1836 for the lives of James Charters (dead), Robert Winslow Charters and William Fetherston Charters (both living).
Familysearch and Ancestry have a few bits and pieces for that name, but not a lot.
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Wonder if the name 'Robert Winslow Charters' is one that goes back quite far and has been used in many branches over the years? Put the full name in Family Search and there are lots of different ones coming up ;)
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If I didn't mention before, yes, the David Winther tree on ancestry is my tree. I hope you can all see it. My Great-Grandmother Elizabeth (Charters) Stephens is my mothers, mothers, mother.
I also noticed the repeated use of Robert Charters as a name as well. I think that the 1 Oct 1840 one is the husband of Mary as it also matches up with the 1901 census showing him to be 60 years old living on Charlotte Street in Belfast. Hence I don't think the dairyman Robert Charters that died at age 47 is him...but who IS this? The 1901 census shows him as a clerk.
The Robert Charters and Charter family we appear to be talking about seem to center around Clonbroney, Co. Longford. The Tithe and Applotment books show a Robert Charters with 5 entries in 1825 in Cavan, Etherland, and 3 in Ballinalea, Clonbroney, Co, Longford. I have to make an assumption that this is a father or more likely a grandfather the our Robert Charters born 1840 and father to my GG. Again, the 1901 Census show Co, Longford as birthplace to both Robert and Mary.
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/results.jsp?surname=Charters&firstname=Robert&county=Longford&parish=&townland=&search=Search (http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/results.jsp?surname=Charters&firstname=Robert&county=Longford&parish=&townland=&search=Search)
The Enumerator's Abstract from the 1901 census also shows them as 1 being Roman Catholic (Robert Charters) and 2 Church of Ireland. I suspect this resulted in the delayed baptisms for the children. The other children list no religious preference. The family literally lived in the shadow of St Malachy so I'm sure it was also convenient for the family to worship there as well. I know my Great-Grandmother was not Catholic when she lived in the states *not to say that she might not have been raised one).
There is so much new information here for me to try and process. Again, I can not thank you all for the help! Looking into my family is something that I had want to do for a long time. With mysteries on both my mothers and fathers side...well let's just say I have had so much fun trying to unravel them!
Are any of you good a Danish lines?! That is the other mystery I face! ;D
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Now something speculative, a marriage in Belfast in 1917 between a George Smith and a Janetta Elizabeth Kirkpatrick of 10 Constance Street, the bride's father given as Hugh Kirkpatrick:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1917/09750/5538455.pdf
Intriguingly, the 1918 Belfast street directory shows the following entry for Constance Street: 10. Kirkpatrick, H. W. (possibly Hugh Warner?)
http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/ccomplete1918_b.htm
The 1920 Liverpool-Quebec passenger list and arrivals form (mentioned @ reply #27) was for Janet / Janetta Kirkpatrick and stated that she was single, so the 1917 marriage is perhaps just a co-incidence of names, just worth noting for now until it can be ruled in or out.
Hmmm...on that marriage cert it lists him as a Private with the 7/8 Battalion, Royal Irish Fusiliers. Possible that the marriage ended with his death in the war?
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... This sounds like a mother who really wanted to get in touch with her children.
Yes, the notices ran from 9 December 1922 to 24 February 1923.
During this entire process, I'm struck wondering WHY Mary gave up her children? Was it purely for financial reasons? Being a widow I'm sure she was in dire need of assistance. A heartbreaking story really.
One comment that my Aunt made was that my GG tried to hide anything in her life that said "Charters". My uncle Jack wasn't adopted by my great-grandfather until just before he left for WWII. He changed his last name to Stephens when that happened, but his high school graduation diploma said Charters on it, but apparently he went by Stephens prior to being adopted. When my GG was asked about his father in Ireland, she apparently became very angry and would not talk about it, simply insisting that his adoptive father was his father.
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I think that the 1 Oct 1840 one is the husband of Mary as it also matches up with the 1901 census showing him to be 60 years old living on Charlotte Street in Belfast. Hence I don't think the dairyman Robert Charters that died at age 47 is him...but who IS this? The 1901 census shows him as a clerk.
Can understand why you are sceptical but look back at the timeline I posted yesterday(reply #33).
We know the birth certificates for his children and the 1901 census are the correct family. Robert's occupation goes from labourer (1885-1896) then clerk 1899 (Robert's birth) to 1901 (census & directory).
Skipping ahead a bit, we know that the marriage of Kathleen Charters to William Kirkpatrick is correct. On the marriage (1904) father's occupation is dairyman (same as daughter Kate gave for 1903 death certificate). Kathleen's occupation on the marriage certificate is dairymaid.
Also, Robert is buried (1903) in same plot his two daughters were buried in (1893).
So, for some reason Robert's age on the death certificate (and cemetery record) is incorrect but it's likely Kathleen didn't know exactly when her father was born.
I also this the 1840 baptism is likely to be correct, which means that both Robert and Mary were raised Catholic. Would still like to find their marriage though.
It may be that Mary didn't 'give up' her children willingly. In 1903, when her husband died, most of the children were quite young- Kate (19), Fanny (14), Charlotte (12), Elizabeth (7), Robert (not yet 4). Kate got married just over a year later but in the interim perhaps helped support the family. Five years later, Fanny & Charlotte go to Canada as Home children- they may have been in a Home in Belfast before that with mother intending to get them back as soon as she could. We know that Robert went to a Home in Dublin (by 1911) and then to Canada (1913) also as a Home Child.
Reading the appeals in the newspaper (1922/1923), Mary knew her children went to Canada and called them by the names they were called in the family (Kitty, Lizzie, etc.) rather than Kathleen, Elizabeth, etc.
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Since 3 of the children were Home children there might be records about them and the family situation.
Also meant to add that when Mary was widowed in 1903 there was unlikely to have been any family members nearby that could help.
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Are any of you good a Danish lines?! That is the other mystery I face!
I can take a look if you want.
Ian
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... Hmmm...on that marriage cert it lists him as a Private with the 7/8 Battalion, Royal Irish Fusiliers. Possible that the marriage ended with his death in the war?
The only one I could find so far was this one, but as you will see, he just doesn't fit well at all (other than the timing).
It was an accidental drowning in Belfast Lough on 17 November 1919. This George was described as: 18 in the CWGC website; 20 in his death registration; and about 18 1/2 in the newspaper reports covering the incident and inquest. This George was described as bachelor / unmarried in the death registration and newspaper reports. This George was in the Norfolk regiment.
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/661132/SMITH,%20GEORGE
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1919/05140/4416048.pdf
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... Hmmm...on that marriage cert it lists him as a Private with the 7/8 Battalion, Royal Irish Fusiliers. Possible that the marriage ended with his death in the war?
Another piece to the puzzle. Just a reminder that when George Smith married Janetta Elizabeth Kirkpatrick in 1917, their given address was 10 Constance Street.
Note the following death on 1 December 1919 of a Mary Smith, 6 hours old, the daughter of George Smith, soldier, at 10 Constance Street. A Rosanna Milligan, described as an Aunt, was the informant and present at death:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1919/05139/4415910.pdf
A transcription I've seen of the birth registration for this child gives the mother as 'Helen Kilpatrick'.
She was buried in the Belfast City Cemetery public ground:
https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=7979.36261
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... Hmmm...on that marriage cert it lists him as a Private with the 7/8 Battalion, Royal Irish Fusiliers. Possible that the marriage ended with his death in the war?
Another piece to the puzzle. Just a reminder that when George Smith married Janetta Elizabeth Kirkpatrick in 1917, their given address was 10 Constance Street.
On the wedding certificate of Robert Winslow Charters and Janetta Elizabeth Kirkpatrick, 8 APR 1922, it lists his father as "James" Charters as opposed to the suspected "Robert" Charters... Of course the fates conspire the poke you in the eye as the maiden name of the bridegroom's mother was mistakenly filled with the brides mother's name (Catherine Such) and then crossed out with no correction made...
It also lists his and her religion as Presbyterian.
http://interactive.ancestry.com/7921/ONMS932_630-0173/1052639?backurl=http://person.ancestry.com/tree/68041183/person/190002108300/facts/citation/680188947329/edit/record (http://interactive.ancestry.com/7921/ONMS932_630-0173/1052639?backurl=http://person.ancestry.com/tree/68041183/person/190002108300/facts/citation/680188947329/edit/record)
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I'll post here if that is ok....
1825 - Anders Larsson Winter Birth: http://ao.sa.dk/ao/data.ashx?bid=29216764 - Ødis Parish
1833 - Chritsine Christensen Birth: http://ao.sa.dk/ao/data.ashx?bid=28760719 - Varde Parish
1840 - Christine Christensen Census: http://ao.sa.dk/ao/data.ashx?bid=126475 - Janderup Parish
1845 - Christine Christensen Census: http://ao.sa.dk/ao/data.ashx?bid=171882 - Janderup Parish
1850 - Christine Christensen Census: http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid7400771 - Janderup Parish
1854 - Christine Christensen Moving Out from Janderup Parish to Åbenrå Parish: http://ao.sa.dk/ao/data.ashx?bid=27745307 - Janderup Parish
1855 - Anders Winter and Christine Christensen Marriage: http://ao.sa.dk/ao/data.ashx?bid=38301340 - Løjt Parish
1856 - Anne Marie Winter Birth: http://ao.sa.dk/ao/data.ashx?bid=38301088 - Åbenrå Parish
1860 - Anders Winter and Christine Christensen Census: http://ao.sa.dk/ao/data.ashx?bid=263350 - Åbenrå Parish
1860 - Christian Winter Birth: http://ao.sa.dk/ao/data.ashx?bid=38301110 - Åbenrå Parish
1863 - Andreas Winter Birth: http://ao.sa.dk/ao/data.ashx?bid=38301126 - Åbenrå Parish
1872 - Lauritz Winter Birth: http://ao.sa.dk/ao/data.ashx?bid=38301182 - Åbenrå Parish
1875 - Anders Larsson Winter Death: http://ao.sa.dk/ao/data.ashx?bid=38301568 - Åbenrå Parish
http://www.rootdigger.de/Emi.htm .......under "v"
Andreas: Accused (in 1886) of leaving the country without a permit for emigration or of not showing for military service. Farmer.
Christian: Seaman. He did not show for military service in 1883 / 84. Emigration assumed.
Lauritz: Accused (in 1893) of not showing for military service and of leaving the country without the required permit.
Ian
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Maybe of interest Sisters Mrs Burt/Birt ,Annie McPherson and Mrs Merry
http://anglo-celtic-connections.blogspot.ie/2013/04/english-children-in-canada.html
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... Note the following death on 1 December 1919 of a Mary Smith, 6 hours old, the daughter of George Smith, soldier, at 10 Constance Street. A Rosanna Milligan, described as an Aunt, was the informant and present at death:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1919/05139/4415910.pdf
I know that one has to apply a certain amount of licence in interpreting such stated relationships but I was hoping that researching Rosanna might help confirm the whole is it? / isn't it? over Janetta Elizabeth Kirkpatrick in the 1917 marriage, in the event all I can find is a Robert John Milligan of '10 Constance' signing the Ulster Covenant in 1912, could be a co-incidence I suppose...
http://apps.proni.gov.uk/ulstercovenant/image.aspx?image=M0047000010
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http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/503002/KIRKPATRICK,%20H
10 Constance St
http://soldierswills.nationalarchives.ie/reels/sw/KirkpatrickH_E335073.pdf
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http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/503002/KIRKPATRICK,%20H
10 Constance St
http://soldierswills.nationalarchives.ie/reels/sw/KirkpatrickH_E335073.pdf
Lovely find, and consistent with Janetta having a brother Hugh.
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Robert Winslow Charters born c1815 was my grandmothers grandfather