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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: originQuest on Friday 06 January 17 19:14 GMT (UK)
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Hi there,
I've not uploaded on this section before, but I'm really struggling with reading a will of my ancestor Robert Brett. I'd really love to know what the document says and if it mentions his son Thomas Brett.
I'm not sure if I upload the scan of the document here, or it is available on FindMyPast in their
Cheshire Wills and Probate Transcriptions
Robert Brett Yeoman of Bickley pr 1723. The entry notes Administration and Inventory, says no will or codicil, but says 'Will supra'
In anticipation,
Thank you.
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The first page is an administration bond, dated 21 October 1723, sworn by his widow Ellen Brett. The first section of it (the obligation) is in Latin, the second section (the condition) is in English.
The essence of it is that Ellen has to submit an inventory of her late husband's estate to the court by 21 January 1723/24 and complete the administration of his estate by 22 October 1724, against a penalty of £200. She and her bondsman, Hugh Brett, yeoman, both of Bickley, make their marks at the foot of the page. (There is also a dummy bondsman 'John Doe', who doesn't really exist.)
The inventory of Robert Brett's estate then follows on the next couple of pages. As we can't upload complete documents for copyright reasons, it's probably best if you have a go at transcribing as much of the inventory as you can. Then perhaps post your partial transcript here, with images of any parts that you're finding difficult? There are always plenty of people to help with inventories.
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Thank you so much for this help, and wow, this raises numerous questions ... so, this is an administration and it isn't actually a will? I did see the page in Latin (which I can't read) and the page in English (which to me was predominantly unreadable).
What is the idea of a 'dummy bondsman'?
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This is my transcription of the inventory if anyone could check it over please?
A true Inventory of the Goods + Cattel of Robert Brett of Bickley deceased May the 23rd 1723
IMP £ S d
14 Cows & a bull at 29 00 00
2 Horses at 4 00 00
2 … at 3 years old & 3 calves 5 00 00
4 couples of sheep 00 18 00
2 swine at 00 18 00
Carts with all Implements of Husbandry 3 10 00
20 hundred of Cheese 20 00 00
In the house 2 tables 2 … & 6 chears & a screen 00 10 00
Brass pewter & iron Cettle 2 00 00
In the Buttery 3 … & cheese picks 0 6 06
In the Chamber 2 beds & … with there appurtenances and one Chest 3 00 00
The room over the Chamber 2 beds & … with these appurtenances 0 2 6
All linning 0 12 0
One long wheel 2 fitting wheels 8 5 0
1 church & staff 1 chees tub 3 cokes
3 canns & chees pitts … & 3 barrills 1 … 1 12 08
All earthenware 0 2 6
All lumber 0 5 0
His wearing apparill 2 00 00
… … … and sadle
Total 76 2 2
Mr Hugh Brett of Bickley Esq.
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For the best chance of getting help, please post snippets of the images where you are having difficulty, so that those without FindMyPast subscriptions can also assist.
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Thank you Bookbox - will try and get snippets of the inventory but have also moved ahead somewhat here with this research.
I've tried to read these other wills and am having no luck with the old handwritting - would it be possible, for somebody on here with a FindMyPast sub to perhaps have a look and pass on here the main points of the will (i.e. the names of beneficaries and relationships if mentioned).
No problem if not, but I thought it worth asking as it is a bit of struggle for me to start anywhere with these.
The wills references are here in case anyone can help out here.
Thank you.
Cheshire Wills and Probate Transcription
Print transcription .
First name(s) John
Last name Brett
Occupation Husbandman
Residence Bickley
Probate year 1613
Will Yes
Codicil No
Inventory Yes
Administration No
Notes Will Supra
County Cheshire
Country England
Record set Cheshire Wills and Probate
Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers)
Subcategory Wills & probate
Collections from United Kingdom
Cheshire Wills and Probate Transcription
Print transcription .
First name(s) Thomas
Last name Brett
Occupation Husbandman
Residence Hatherton
Probate year 1579
Will Yes
Codicil No
Inventory No
Administration No
Notes Will Supra
County Cheshire
Country England
Record set Cheshire Wills and Probate
Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers)
Subcategory Wills & probate
Collections from United Kingdom
Cheshire Wills and Probate Transcription
Print transcription .
First name(s) Alice
Last name Brett
Occupation Widow
Residence Bickley
Probate year 1609
Will Yes
Codicil No
Inventory Yes
Administration No
Notes Will Supra
County Cheshire
Country England
Record set Cheshire Wills and Probate
Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers)
Subcategory Wills & probate
Collections from United Kingdom
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"Church & Staff" should that be a Churn & Staff?
Skoosh.
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Hmmm I shall have a look at that Skoosh ... I'm not really sure what this means about my ancestor. They seem to be quite wealthy tenant farmers.
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would it be possible, for somebody ... to pass on here the main points of the will (i.e. the names of beneficaries and relationships if mentioned)
Will of John Brett, Husbandman of Bickley, county of Chester, 1613
sick in body but of sound mind, to be buried in the churchyard at Malpas
Wife (unnamed) said to be deceased
Sons – John Brett, Hugh Brett, Richard Brett
Grandchildren – Thomas Brett (son of Hugh), Catheren Brett (daughter of Hugh), children (unnamed) of Richard
Son-in-law – Phillip Brett, and Phillip's son Thomas Brett
Godson – John Hayward, John Hayward’s 2 sisters, children (unnamed) of William Heyward
Servants – Elleyn ap Richard; Servant (unnamed) of his son Hugh, and her son
Executors – son John Brett, William Heyward
Debts owed to – Gylbert Wollam, Thomas Burrowes, Thomas Johnson, Thomas Johnson the elder, the Widow Johnson’s son Thomas, Thomas Hanton, and the priest of Cholmondeleighe for his hire
Witnesses – Jane Sayer, Elleyn ap Richard, Catheren Brett (daughter of Hugh Brett), ‘& mee William Swanwicke’ (presumably the writer)
Inventory – appraised 26 October 1613 by Thomas Bostocke, Hughe Harrcourte and Thomas Brett, husbandmen; total value £84 17s.
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Will of Thomas Brett, husbandman of Heathaston(*), county of Chester, 1579
vexed with sickness but of whole and perfect memory, to be buried in the churchyard at Malpas
Wife – Ales
6 children – Phelipe, Thomas, Jone(?), Katherin, Ales, Margaret
Katherin Brette, daughter of Hughe Brette of Prestayne
Franncis Flyte
Godchildren (unnamed)
John Moors (no relationship)
Executors – Thomas Bathe, Wyllyam Johnson, wife Ales
Witnesses – Arthure Burroughe, Robert Flyte, Elenor Webster, John Brette, Richard Hocthkynson
(*) The place is clearly written Heathaston in the will, but Cheshire Archives (and FindMyPast) state Hatherton, perhaps from the probate or another source.
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Dear Bookbox,
Thank you so much for this - very kind of your indeed. I've transcribed many wills myself but I find working on the 16th/17th Century documents very difficult so my sincere thanks.
Also, I had thought that John Brett, d 1613 would be a son of Thomas d 1578, but now I wonder if they were brothers?
It seems that Thomas' son Philip, married John's daughter, and there is a marriage in the Malpas parish that seems to fit.
I too descend from a Thomas Brett, who was buried in Malpas in 1643 (will is in the Wales, strangely), but how he fits into this myriad of Thomas Brett's isn't quite clear yet ... THANK YOU!
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Katherin Brette, daughter of Hughe Brette of Prestayne
What place name would that be today do we think?
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My first thought was Presteigne, on the Welsh border ...
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/HEF/Presteigne
... but it's a long way from Malpas. A Cheshire expert will probably come up with a better candidate.
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Thank you - the Welsh connection might be more likely than first imagined. The following chap was buried in Malpas, in 1643, despite living in Wales:
Thomas Brett, The Elder
This record is held by National Library of Wales: Department of Collection Services
See contact details
Title: Thomas Brett, The Elder
Reference: C/1643/2
Description:
Will. Inventory.
Diocese: Chester
Parish: Is-coed
County: Flintshire
Date: 1643
Held by: National Library of Wales: Department of Collection Services, not available at The National Archives
Language: English
***************************
Would need to get a copy of that will soon as it will really help piecing this together. At the moment, it is difficult to get my head around this family fully as there are some gaps in the mid 1600s.
Thank you again.
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Hmmm just been looking at this will, which seems to pertain to a burial in Malpas in 1657. I can make out on the last page that this man's wife and children are mentioned but no names?
Are they mentioned earlier on?
Cheshire Wills and Probate Transcription
Print transcription .
First name(s) Thomas
Last name Brett
Occupation Yeoman
Residence Malpas, Ederson
Probate year 1661
Will Yes
Codicil No
Inventory Yes
Administration No
Notes Will Supra SEE Will Contested 1661
County Cheshire
Country England
Record set Cheshire Wills and Probate
Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers)
Subcategory Wills & probate
Collections from United Kingdom
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Are they mentioned earlier on?
Not as far as I can see.
The testator was buried on 4 Dec 1657, and the inventory was drawn up on 23 Jan 1657/58. According to the Cheshire Archives catalogue, the will was contested, and probate was granted in 1661. Depending on your level of interest, it may be worth asking the archives for any further documentation for this probate that is not available on FindMyPast.
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Thank you Bookbox - my reading of these old documents is rudimentary at best but I couldn't see any names.
Wow, I will have a look into this at Cheshire.
Thank you for this help - most invaluable!
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Title: Thomas Brett, The Elder
Reference: C/1643/2
Will. Inventory.
Diocese: Chester
Parish: Is-coed
County: Flintshire
Date: 1643
Held by: National Library of Wales: Department of Collection Services
***************************
Would need to get a copy of that will soon as it will really help piecing this together.
There should be online access to the above will. You can search here ...
https://www.llgc.org.uk/discover/nlw-resources/wills/
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You really are a star, aren't you?!
Thank you for this - I didn't realise it was available online! Wow.
This will isn't quite what I was expecting as I can't see a mention of a son Thomas, which is strange. I DO see however, these beneficiaries:
Wife (unnamed)
Daughters Elinor, Margaret, Frances
Son John
Daughters Mary, Alice
A son (can't read name - not Thomas?!)
Elinor's three children
God children
Alice Taylor
Can't read the last one ...
See I can read bits of some old documents ...
Can you see any other beneficiaries or fill in the blanks that I can't please?
EDIT! I now see Thomas Brett junior and John Edwards mentioned - executors? Would this be his son?
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A son (can't read name - not Thomas?!)
That line appears to read ...
It(em) I leave my sonne bakers 2 Children 3s. 4d apeece
I can't see any more beneficiaries beyond those you've listed.
As the testator is designated Thomas Brett the elder, it seems very likely that Thomas Brett junior is his son, but the relationship isn’t stated.
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It is difficult to read, isn't it?
Thank you - it is interesting as the family tree as I currently have it, has a son Thomas ... with two children. But that doesn't say Thomas!
Hmmmm. Thank you for this.
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Perhaps others might like to decipher that line?
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I'd agree definitely not Thomas, originQuest and Bookbox.
Certainly looks like 'bakers' .
Do you know if he has mentioned all his other children in this will, or have some others been omitted?
I don't think there was a rule that said you had to mention and leave all of them something!
I certainly have some who didn't include all their children, or were cut off with the classic 'shilling' for some reason or another.
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Thank you - I wish I could work out that name for definite. But it does look like 'bakers'.
I too have other wills were children were not mentioned. And yes, a few 'shilling' ones too haha.
This will is interesting as it mentions children hitherto unknown to me. They don't seem to appear in the parish registers.
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Hmmm going back to the burial of the Thomas Brett in Malpas in 1657 ... can anyone see where he was living at that time? I'm looking on the parish register but it really isn't clear.
Thank you.
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Can you post a clip of the register origin?
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Ok. Got it on FindMyPast
It says 'Thomas Brett of wickentree in Bickley......'
Google maps says Bickley is 3 miles East of MAlpas.
Searching for 'wickentree' gives you lots of hits for Wickentree farm, Norley, which is some 15 miles north of Bickley. So at first I thought unlikely, and there would probably be another farm, say, called Wickentree.
However, have you seen these on NAtional Archives?
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/42210340-8c9b-4b88-bb03-3ee2839dfadc
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/3ef85db3-1e8b-44fa-8889-aa0a927b357d
There may be other documents there too.
A bit later than you're looking at, but mentions Bickley and Cholmondley, which is even nearer to Norley. (Pronounced Chumley, don't you know?! :D) So maybe ...............
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Oh wow thank you for Wicken tree.
Haha and I had no idea about Chumley ;)
I keep seeing a lot of the old lease documents which are interesting ... however new ones seem to be cropping up. There is one that is the only hard evidence I have linking a Thomas who died in 1678 to his two sons to my line.
Also there are at least five prominent Thomas Brett between 1570 and 1780 ... although they all seem to be related, sorting them to their appropriate families is proving a little tough.
A branch of the family moves to Iscoyd by the 1640s (see will) and then nothing there until ANOTHER Thomas dies there and leave a will in 1797 ... confusing stuff!
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Iscoyd is only 8 miles from Bickley................
So they didn't move very far! ;)
I only know Cholmondley is pronounced 'Chumley' because my brother lives very near there. :)
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Small world indeed!
Haha thank you.
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Hello Bookbox
Can you tell me why there would be an entry for a non-existing person.
Very curious as there is a Joanne Doe as party to an 1724 admon
Karen
(There is also a dummy bondsman 'John Doe', who doesn't really exist.)
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Hello Bookbox
Can you tell me why there would be an entry for a non-existing person.
Very curious as there is a Joanne Doe as party to an 1724 admon
Karen
(There is also a dummy bondsman 'John Doe', who doesn't really exist.)
Dummy names such as John Doe, Richard Roe, Hugh Hunt are used to fill gaps in documents, or in legal situations, where there is provision (or it is customary) for an additional name to be entered, but in reality no other person is involved.
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Thank you Bookbox
It's fascinating