RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: ROBINHULL on Sunday 22 January 17 17:23 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone.
I am on the trail of a Julia Curtis born about 1831 in Leicester and arrived in Australia on 9th March 1857 at Geelong.
To work for a CE Strutt? at St Kilda.
If anybody can help or point me in the right direction to try and find Julia that would be really appreciated.
Many Thanks.
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For background info see previous post
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=763349.msg6150084#msg6150084
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Hi,
Late in 1857 or early 1858 Charles Edward Strutt went to Echuca as the Police Magistrate, Echuca which is located on the Murray River in northern Victoria, wonder if Julia was still under his employ of Mr Strutt in that location, Mrs Strutt had a daughter at Echuca in April 1858.
Gerry
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I am not able to find her on the 1841 census but I see her in 1851 as detailed on the other thread.
What are her parents' names, please? Australian death certificates ask for this information so it may be helpful in locating her later.
Having said that there is this death with no parents listed
Victoria 1917, #2944
Julia CURTIS, 81
Birth Year: abt 1836
Death Place: Ganham, Victoria
However, TROVE has a death notice for a Julia CURTIS, 81, who died at Hampton (Vic) in May 1917. She was the mother of Mrs MOORE, and three others only identified by initials. So it would appear that CURTIS may be the married name.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1607814
Judith
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Hi Judith,
It took me a while too to find the 1841 item, but it is transcribed as Julia CURLISS.
Parents are William and Elizabeth and 2 brothers with Julia named Henry (13 years) and Alfred (5 years).
Sue
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Per another of the OP's threads, the parents are William Curtis and Elizabeth Hull
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=763348.0
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Thanks everyone for your help and looking for Julia.
Much appreciated.
I have found some more info regarding the arrival etc at Geelong of the ship the Admiral Boxer from a newspaper article.
Whatever happened to Julia after her arrival is a bit of a mystery .
Thanks again
Robin
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Having said that there is this death with no parents listed
Victoria 1917, #2944
Julia CURTIS, 81
Birth Year: abt 1836
Death Place: Ganham, Victoria
However, TROVE has a death notice for a Julia CURTIS, 81, who died at Hampton (Vic) in May 1917. She was the mother of Mrs MOORE, and three others only identified by initials. So it would appear that CURTIS may be the married name.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1607814
Mrs Moore would appear to be Julia Laura Curtis, who married Thomas Leckenby Moore in 1888, although I cannot find a birth for Julia Laura Curtis.
Julia Laura Moore died in 1945 aged 84, so born c 1861, but again the parents are unknown although she is said to have been born in Hotham.
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Am just noting this one in case someone can help with the marriage as I am UK based and the advert is 1911 NSW
Patrick Doherty and Julia Curtis
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jc5/
do you think the date is 1860?
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My resource shows the place of death as Sanham which would be registration district Sandringham which would include Hampton.
Cando
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There is a marriage notice for Thomas MOORE, Prahran, HM Customs and Julia Laura CURTIS of Albert Park, 12 July, 1888. Unfortunately no parent details. (Both places suburbs of Melbourne
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/6896311
The death notice for Julia CURTIS, 1917 said she died at her son's residence, Willis St, Hampton. Electoral rolls show these people with surname CURTIS in Hampton in 1917:
Constance Gertrude, hd, Wills St
Herbert Henry, clerk, Willis St
Julia, hd, Willis St
John Norman, dentist, Hampton St
Florence Maud, hd, Hampton St
Rupert Cecil, optician, "Asthore" Hampton Rd
The death notice stated she was mother to the late A. E.., C. G. and H.H
Presumably these children alive at the time are Constance Gertrude and Herbert Henry.
This family is quite elusive - I find nothing to suggest that Julia snr is the Julia being sought but then there is also noting to rule her out. IF it is the correct Julia she has not used a married surname - perhaps she was married and reverted to the use of her maiden name.
Anyhow, here's what I have found; I cannot see a birth for any of them (in Australia)
Death, Victoria, 1943, #4984
Constance Gertrude CURTIS, 73, (b abt 1870)
Death Place: Adelaide, Victoria
No mention of parents on this index :(
TROVE death Notices:
Constance Gertrude CURTIS died 13 May, sister of Julia (Mrs MOORE), Alf (dec) and Herb. Notices mention nieces and nephews.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11338890/624136
Constance Gertrude CURTIS buried at St Kilda, 15 May 1943.
PROV WILLS: http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54
Constance G CURTIS, Spinster, E Brighton, died 13 May 1943 File no: 343/381
TROVE shows a death for a Herbert Henry CURTIS of 2 Landcox St, North Brighton, privately cremated. The notices mention nieces and nephews, among them some with surname MOORE. I suspect he was never married.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/23319230
According to a Deceased Search he was cremated at Springvale 9/11/1953 and the remains scattered.
From PROV wills
Herbert H Curtis, occ X Clerk (sic), of Brighton, died 07 Nov 1953, File Number: 470/375
Judith
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This is probably the son who is mentioned as deceased in Jullia's death notice - also buried at St Kilda
St Kilda Cemetery
Alfred E CURTIS, Buried 26/06/1905
Church of England, Compartment C, Grave 505 (same as one of his sisters')
Looks like his death index entry - hooray - a father's name
Victoria, 1905 #5207
Alfd Ernt CURTIS, 37, (b abt 1868)
Died at Elsternwick, Victoria
Father's name: Curtin Thos Boyd
Mother's name: Julia Curtis
Hmm - father's name is intriguing and perhaps someone else may come in with other resources to find better info.
What order are the father's names? That is, what is his surname? Could the name "Curtin" actually be Curtis?
Is his mother's maiden name actually CURTIS or is it a married name (I know it should be her maiden name.)
Death notice for Alfred Ernest CURTIS with no family information ::)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198593384
Judith
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Hi Judith,
The online index has Curtis rather than Curtin in the column for his Dad's details.
CURTIS Alfd Ernt
Death
Father's name Curtis Thos Boyd
Mother's maiden name Julia (Curtis)
Reg. year 1905
Reg. no 5207
http://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/home/family+history/search+your+family+history/
ADD
I checked for Curtis, death 1905, NO GIVEN NAMES and I am now sure the 'Curtis' in Dad's name column is Dad's surname.
JM
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An infant death in Victoria
CURTIS Ernest Edwin
Father Thomas
Mother Julia CURTIS
Age: 1
Birth Place PRAH
Year 1867
Reg 9068
Sue
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My index entry using CURTIN was from the usual Australian Birth Index as supplied by Ancestry so I'm not surprised it was incorrect. ::) Judith
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Thanks everyone for taking time out to look for Julia Curtis.
Much appreciated.
I note yesterday there was a link to a newspaper to a marriage for a Patrick Doherty and Julia Curtis about 1860.??
Is there any way of checking this out at all??
Thanks. :)
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Had a quick look but no luck. Busy for the next couple of days so won't get to it properly till at least the weekend. Perhaps someone else may be able to look before then.
If you think there is a chance that the other lady is your Julia you can download images from Victorian records for about $AU23. Australian certificates have wonderful genealogical information - again, if known to the informant.
Here's what is asked for when registering a death:
Date and place of death;
name and surname;
occupation of the deceased;
sex and age;
cause of death,
duration of illness,
medical attendant by whom certified and when he last saw deceased;
name and surname of parents (if known) including mother's maiden surname signature, description and address of the person who gave the information; signature of deputy registrar, date and where registered,
when and where buried,
undertaker whom certified;
name and religion of Minister, or names of witnesses of burial;
place of birth of the deceased and how long he or she resided in the Australian colonies or states (stating which),
name of spouse,
place of marriage,
age at marriage;
names and ages of children of the deceased.
Much more informative than those from England and Wales :)
You can save $1 by using the registration number which was given in the earlier post.
http://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/
Judith
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I too have had a bit of a look around for the CURTIS /DOHERTY marriage.
Used some different spellings for the surnames and other techniques without any luck.
It is an interesting notice because the implication , though subtle, is that the marriage took place in Australia and that the couple (or at least the Julia CURTIS) had connections in England, even specifically London. However, the wording makes none of this perfectly clear ::)
I think I noted that your Julia, on the passenger list, was C of E.
I would be asking on the Irish board whether a marriage could be found in Ireland as a pathway to eliminating or confirming her as your person.
Sue
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Thanks for looking..
Julia does seem to be tricky to track down.
Perhaps marriage to Patrick Doherty was in Australia about 1860 but could easily be another ???
The death certificate info does seem to be a lot more detailed...even names and age of children which would be of great interest..
Thanks again everyone for looking for me.
:)
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Some eliminations:
You can see how I've eliminated this one -
From Victoria, Australia, Cemetery Records and Headstone Transcriptions, 1844-1997
At Melbourne cemetery, Section A, Roman Catholic
Erected by William DOHERTY in memory of his parents Patrick DOHERTY died 11 Dec 1863 age 52 and Julia Ann DOHERTY died 3 Dec 1895 age 80 also Ann died 23 Jan 1854
The only death I can see for a Patrick DOHERTY, 1863, is in NSW, registered at Young, #6513.
No parents' names given on the index.
According to an on-line tree this man's wife was Julia Ann HANLEY and here are her details from the index
Victoria, 1895, #13063
Julia DOHERTY, 77
Died at Echuca, Victoria
Parents: Hanley Wh, Julia Mahoney
Another one:
NSW death, 1867, of a Julia A Doherty, Maitland registration, parents: Thomas, Mary - wrong parents.
Possible? Electoral rolls on-line begin at 1903 when Julia, nee CURTIS would be about 70.
Electoral rolls show a Julia DOHERTY at Temora, 1903-4. No others of that surname shown in Temora. However there are some births in Temora to Thomas and Julia DOHERTY so I think this is not her, either.
Judith
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From the NSW electoral roll 1902/3, BLAND, polling at Temora. (ie not from Ancestry)
Julia DOHERTY, (of) Temora, domestic duties
Thomas Andrew DOHERTY (of) Temora, letter carrier.
no others of that surname at that polling place.
JM
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An entry Sands 1905 Country Directories.
Mrs DOHERTY, Costumiere, Temora. ;D
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
JM
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Good finds JM. I didn't see Thomas Doherty on the Ancestry electoral rolls for Temora in 1903. For OP's information Temora is a small town in the Riverina district in NSW. With births on NSW BMD to Thomas and Julia Docherty I would discount this woman also as it seems likely that her husband's name is Thomas.
Judith
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Ancestry's NSW ER is for 1903/04, ie likely it was prepared for December 1903 federal elections or the August
1903 (see JMs note below) state elections. Mine is for 1902/03, and includes Females for the first time.
I agree, the lass at Temora very unlikely to be the Julia Curtis. Thomas Andrew Doherty, the letter carrier can be followed in Trove (postal assistant etc various locations) and NSW BDM births into the 1900s at those various locations matching up with Trove sightings would therefore seem to eliminate Mrs Doherty, the costumiere of Temora.
OOPS, the NSW elections were August 1904. I should remember to double/triple check my facts before typing up. Sorry.
JM
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Hi..
Thanks for everyone taking time to look for Julia Curtis..really appreciated.
I am new to this hunt in Australia so any help was really appreciated.
Julia does seem to disappear but will no doubt pop up somewhere... sometime...
Thanks again
Rob
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Hmmmm
Couldn't resist so I downloaded the death certificate for Julia CURTIS, died 1917, and it still doesn't completely rule her out!
Transcription:
Deaths
Date and place of death - 29 March, 1917. 19 Willis St Hampton, Victoria
Name and surname - Julia Curtis
Occupation of the deceased - household duties
Sex and age - female 81 years
Cause of death - Senile decay, heart failure
Duration of illness - not recorded
Medical attendant by whom certified and when he last saw deceased; W R Atkinson, 28 March 1917
Name and surname of parents (if known) including mother's maiden surname, with occupation - not known is written 4 times in this column.
Signature, description and address of the person who gave the information - G C Cooley, authorised agent, Burnley St, Burnley
Signature of deputy registrar, date and where registered - Frederick William Francis, 29 March 1917, Sandringham
[i]When and where buried, undertaker whom certified[/i] - 30 March, 1917, St Kilda, Roy Sleight
Name and religion of Minister, or names of witnesses of burial; E Thomas, James Lee
Place of birth of the deceased and how long he or she resided in the Australian colonies or states (stating which) - Leicestershire, England, 55 years in Victoria
If married - Where, and at what age and to whom - Scotland, 25, Thomas Curtis,
Names and ages of children of the deceased - Julia Laura 56, Ernest Edwin dec'd, Alfred Ernest dec'd, Constance Gertrude ? years, Herbert Henry 45 years
So - some thoughts............
Place of birth is correct, but only gives the county.
Age: 81 at 1917 gives a DoB of abt 1836; as this lady is quite some age it's possible that the informant may not have known her actual age. The UK census entries give ages for a DoB of 1831 in which case she would have been 86 at her death.
Informant is an authorised agent - possibly an employee of the undertaker or a solicitor. The information given would have been given to him by a family member.
Time in Victoria is out by some 5 years - again the informant may not have known exactly when she arrived.
Marriage - the information gives her age as 25 when she married Thomas CURTIS in Scotland. This would be a marriage date between 1855 and 1861 depending on her DoB (1831 -1836). Arrival in 1857 has obvious implications for a marriage date. Seems possible that her maiden name may have been CURTIS also.
I still think this may be her although there are some inconsistencies - possibly these could be explained by poor information from the informant keeping in mind that the events were before the informant's birth.
It seems that Thomas has been gone for some time at the time of this Julia's death as he is not mentioned in the death notices, although not listed on the record as deceased. Seems odd that there seems to be no birth records for the children. A birth certificate would have been very useful!
Just a small part of me wonders if this marriage actually took place. :-\
I haven't time to hunt up a marriage in Scotland just at present. ::)
Judith
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The death records for any of the children should give Name and surname of parents (if known) including mother's maiden surname, with occupation. If you are going to order one it would be better to get the child who died in 1867 as the information for that registration would almost certainly have been given by Julia or Thomas direct. At least it should show if Julia's maiden name was Curtis. The children who died after Julia probably have no more info than her death registration.
This is the website. Cost is $AU 24.60 on the plastic card 8) and it's emailed to you immediately.
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj
The marriage certificate for Julia Laura should have parent's names of each party (including mother's maiden name) and occupation of father; But again, by the time she was married perhaps Thomas was not mentioned.
Intriguing!
Judith
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Hi.
I have managed to obtain a copy of Ernest Edwin Curtis death certificate entry via the web link given...thanks for that.
Julia Curtis maiden name is shown as Curtis...which is good news..
And with the Leicestershire birth place shown in her death entry its all starting to look more probable.??
Don't you think..??
Finding a Julia and Thomas marriage would be fantastic but seems to be looking unlikely???
Still so many questions...
Thanks again for everyone's help.
Rob
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I'm 90% happy that this is your Julia, especially as there seems no other possibility found so far.
I'll transcribe the Death record - poor little boy and poor Julia, she must have been so worried for her other child, Julia Laura, who was about 6 at the time. I notice that the child listed next on the register also died of diphtheria a few days later aged 4 months and another girl aged 9 years died of typhoid fever. These children all lived in the same area of Prahran. So sad.
Deaths
Date and place of death; 10 July, 1867, Macquarie St, Prahran
name and surname; Ernest Edwin CURTIS
sex and age; Male, 1 year 5/12
cause of death, diphtheria, exhaustion
duration of illness, 4 days
medical attendant by whom certified and when he last saw deceased; Dr J H H Lewellin?, 10 July
name and surname of parents (if known) including mother's maiden surname Thomas CURTIS, gentleman, Julia CURTIS formerly CURTIS
Information given by the undertaker J Raybould.
Burial was at St Kilda cemetery, 13 July 1867
Officiating minister: J H Gregory, C of E
place of birth of the deceased; Prahran
So Ernest was born about February 1866 at Prahran.
I cannot see any record that fits his birth.
Speculation only: My thoughts are that Julia and Thomas were not married. Perhaps Thomas was already married ::) :-\
If you look on Googlemap - search for 4 Macquarie St, Prahran - you will see a small terrace of 3 single-storey houses which may date from the time; 90 degrees around and there are a couple of timber houses. However they may be later - someone else may have much better historical architectural knowledge. Most of the properties now in Macquarie St are modern. Chapel St, which runs parallel to Macquarie St, is still an important through road and is now a trendy shopping area.
Judith
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Hi Robin,
If I were you, I would be giving consideration to downloading the marriage certificate for Julia Laura CURTIS.
We are all aware that the costs involved in certificate purchases can mount up ;D, and it depends entirely on your personal choice.
Here again are the details
CURTIS Julia Laura ( born in Hotham)
MOORE Thomas Leckenby (born in Prahran)
Year 1888
Reg Number3491
Information required at the time of marriage is this.
Date
Couple's names
Couple's ages
Couple's birthplaces
Previous status
Couple's occupations
Couple's residences
Fathers' names
Fathers' occupations
Groom's mothers name
Bride's mothers name
We always hope there is a tiny clue included that may move the search forward. ;D
It would be interesting to see where Julia was born for instance.
If it is of interest to you, there are some births to the couple which I can put up for you.
Sue
ADDING FYI, the birth of bridegroom Thomas
MOORE Thomas Leckenby
Father-
Mother Sarah Ann MOORE
Birth Place PRAH
Year 1862
Reg 9636
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I would bet that the daughter's marriage certificate would have very little, if any, further information about the mysterious Thomas, supposedly a 'gentleman'.
Below is a quote from the index for the death of the son Alfred Ernest CURTIS which gives an extra name for Thomas. However, again, seems likely to me that there would be no further information.
This death index entry - hooray - a father's name
Victoria, 1905 #5207
Alfd Ernt CURTIS, 37, (b abt 1868)
Died at Elsternwick, Victoria
Father's name: Curtin Thos Boyd
Mother's name: Julia Curtis
Judith
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Well, well - look what I've found............
From:
Victoria, Australia, Rate Books.
City of Prahran 1865-1866
1866: Occupier; Thomas Curtis, ship owner
Residence Place: Mcquarie Pl, Prahran, Victoria. Wood cottage
Owner Name: Frederick Duke
Gross annual value 26 pounds, first payment July 6
Frederick Duke, storeman, seems to own all of the houses in the street, of whichThomas' residence has the highest rateable value. Other people's occupations are: printer, contractor, broker, baker, labourer.
1867 - similar entry. Co-incidence? The property next door but one is occupied by a Frederick HULL, bricklayer.
1869 Thomas CURTIS, shipping agent is now in Chapel St, Prahran; house owned by John DOBIE
1870 Thomas CURTIS, shipping agent, no actual address shown
1871 Thomas CURTIS, shipping agent, Grosvenor St, Prahran
1872 & 1873 Thomas CURTIS, shipping agent, Hornby St, Prahran. This is a brick house and shed.
1873 - another entry for samaddress I think. Occupation now given as 'shipping clerk'
1876,1877, 1878, 1879 Occ: shipping agent, now at Trinian St, Prahran. Occ in 1878/9 - clerk
I can't see him definitely after that. There is a Thomas E CURTIS in Prahran in 1890 but no occupation given so unsure if it's him.
I have only listed the Thomas CURTIS entries for Prahran. There are plenty of others.
I think these are lists of the actual ratepayers with no guarantee that the rate-payer was actually living at the address.
At least now we have a connection to a Thomas CURTIS, ship owner or shipping agent or shipping clerk or clerk.
Judith
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Thanks all for the continuing search for information regarding Julia Curtis...much appreciated. :)
I have managed to get a copy of the marriage certificate which I will go through later .
I did note that Julia Laura is shown as Illegitimate.
Sparrett if you could add the children for Julia Curtis and Thomas Moore I would really appreciate that...thanks.
Thanks once again for all of the help
Robin
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I see these three children for Thomas and Julia Laura in Victoria.
MOORE Aubrey Mervyn
Father Thos Laherty
Mother Julia Laura CURLY
Birth Place: ARDALE
Year 1895
Reg. 26080
MOORE Leslie Neville
Father Thos Lahenby
Mother Julia Laura CURTIS
Birth Place PRAHRAN
Year 1891
Reg. 36318
MOORE Verna Muriel
Father Thos Leckenby
Mother Julia Laura CURTIS
Birth Place BOX HILL
Year 1899
Reg. 16202
The son Aubrey Mervyn joined the WW1 forces with a NOK given as T MOORE, father and an address of "Lemernia", Landcox Street Brighton.
There is a letter from him in the file from Wodonga in 1937.
The file is digitised at-
http://www.naa.gov.au/
Leslie Neville was part of the Civil Construction Corps.
His one page file can be seen at the above website.
Sue
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Some news snips about the MOOREs
Engagement notice for their daughter 1926
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165138865
1938 death notice for Thomas MOORE. Names children and grandchildren
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11181863
Death notice of Julia Laura names siblings and other family members. 1945
Perhaps this has been posted previously (sorry if so)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12160048
1925 engagement notice for Leslie Mervyn
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2153836
Sue
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Just wondering if either of these Bills of Sale from 1894 & 1899 could be the same Julia Curtis?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jgr/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jgs/
If I'm looking at the correct Herbert Street on the map then it's in the St Kilda area and less than 2 miles from Macquarie St
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This could be nothing more than a coincidence, but I note that Thomas Curtis was also recorded as Thomas Boyd Curtis, and that the other party to the Bills of Sale with Julia Curtis was Moses Alexander.
There is also this Bill of Sale between Thomas Boyd & Moses Alexander, and again - if Im looking at the correct place on the map - seems to be in the right general area (Prahran/Yarra):
1897: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jgt/
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Very interesting -more and more links..................
I will transcribe the record of the marriage of Julia Laura and Thomas MOORE. You never know what small detail may help in a search. A good example of this is the death reg for the baby which gave the place of death as Mcquarie St, Prahran and this allowed the finding of a Thomas CURTIS paying rates for a property in that street.
So:
Marriage 13 June, 1888 at Herbert St, Albert Park, by Licence, rites of Presbyterian church of Victoria
Thomas Leckenby MOORE, bachelor, born Prahran, civil servant, 26, living in Prahran, mother: Sarah Ann BENNETT
Julia Laura CURTIS, spinster, born Hotham, no occupation listed, 26, living in Albert Park, mother Julia CURTIS.
Witnesses:
Bessie FINLAY, Thos BOYD (slightly difficult to read but it seems to me that's what is written).
There is a notation at the side of the record, signed by the minister stating "Bride and Bridegroom are both of illegitimate birth"
A few observations:
Jomot (great finds) found a Bill of Sale dated 1894 between Moses ALEXANDER and Julia CURTIS for 33 Herbert St, South Melbourne, 1894. The newspaper marriage notice (Reply #10) said that the wedding took place "at the residence of the bride". Presumably the residence was no 33. Looking on Googlemap it seems to be one of a 2-storey terrace.
The Thomas BOYD connection is interesting. As Jomot says the name of the father of Alfred Ernest CURTIS, d 1905, is given as Thomas Boyd CURTIS. There are many entries in the Rate Books for Thomas BOYD and a Thomas Elder BOYD who seem to be the same person and well into buying and selling property all over what is now the inner suburban area of Melbourne. I could not see any of the addresses that we have for the CURTIS family linked to him, though.
I am not familiar with Bills of Sale - is the first-named person the buyer or seller?
Verna, one of Julia MOORE's children is registered at Box Hill in 1899 and the Bill of Sale is for a property in Elgar Rd, Mont Albert. Elgar Rd is the boundary between Box Hill and Mont Albert so it looks as though Julia MOORE was living there at the time.
Moses ALEXANDER also pays rates on a number of properties and is described as a 'financier".
Judith
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The marriage and Bill of Sale both being Herbert Street looks very promising.
I don't know much about the Bill of Sale process either, but this snippet is from the description of the overall series: Bills of Sale were mortgages against personal chattels used extensively by individuals and small business to raise finance.
Schedules of the chattels were attached to the bills. The schedules list the grantors' chattels against which a bill was drawn.
In those instances when the bill was against furniture the inventory is often given on a room by room basis, sometimes identify the occupant of the room.
So it is basically security for a loan, and as Moses Alexander was a financier it seems likely that Julia was borrowing money from him & the Bill of Sale details the security she provided.
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Still looking for Thomas Curtis I note that there are several newspaper references to Thos/Thomas Curtis, Grocer, St Kilda from the 1860's onwards, followed by a death notice in 1885 (died by 'accidental' drowning, aged 57). He appears to have traded at High Street, St Kilda but lived at Grosvenor St, Balaclava. From quickly scanning his will & associated documents he appears to have owned various property & his net estate was just over £1,000. His widow is named as Hannah, daughter Laura Henrietta, son-in-law William Wormall & his son was Thomas Edward Curtis, who may be the Thomas E CURTIS in Prahran in 1890.
An age of 57 in 1885 would put his birth at around 1828, so of a similar age to Julia. Could he perhaps be the Thomas Curtis 'gentleman'? If so then he left nothing to Julia or her children in his will. :-\
For anyone searching the surname is sometimes written Curtiss
ADDED: Just re-reading the Rate Book entries provided previously by Judith:
1871 Thomas CURTIS, shipping agent, Grosvenor St, Prahran - so likelihood is that this is the same family, and the shipping agent is possibly the son, Thomas E
Further added: It looks like Thomas Sr sold his original grocery business in 1874 and then reopened circa 1879/1880, which is when we lose track of the shipping agent. He also seems to have had to sell off various pieces of land in the interim period.
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I had discounted looking for the St Kilda Thomas CURTIS/S as he seemed to be living in St Kilda and any references to his occupation were to his grocery business. It certainly crossed my mind that he could have been Julia's bloke but I did not see how it could ever be proven. I note that Julia's first position was in St Kilda.
Thomas CURTIS/S, the grocer was apparently supposed to have committed suicide according to this newspaper report (on p5)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/191193776/18363549
but the inquest returned a verdict of accidental death
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/191194705
The Thomas CURTIS paying rates in Prahran is described mostly as being involved with shipping as an owner or shipping clerk with one entry just 'clerk'. There are a number of men of the same name at around the same time so separating them is almost impossible.
There is also the link to a Thomas BOYD who seems to be a possibility.
Judith
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Brighton General Cemetery
Family listed https://api.billiongraves.com/grave/Julia-Laura-Moore/12263462#/
Family listed https://billiongraves.com/grave/Verna-Muriel-Burge/12263459#/t
1935 #2099 BURGE, Verna Muriel
Father's name: Moore Thomas
Mother's maiden name: Julia (Curtis)
Place of death: Brighton
Age: 35
Administration notice: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12222816
.. Probate Jurisdiction that LETTERS of ADMINISTRATION of the estate of VERNA MURIEL BURGE late of 2 Landcox street North Brighton in the said State married woman deceased intestate may bo granted to Bennie Howarth Burge...
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12228338
NOK are husband and two children
PROV Index to Wills and Probates https://tinyurl.com/gw8ak8p
Verna M Burge; Married; Nth Brighton; DoD 14 Mar 1935
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Verna's marriage
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3858688
Birth of a son
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4026679
Verna's death notices:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204289078
Perhaps this is the death of one of Verna's sons named in her death notice.
From the Ryerson index
http://ryersonindex.org/search.php
Malcolm Clifford (Mac) BURGE
Died 2 February, 2001, at Deniliquin
Death notice: Herald Sun (Melbourne) 5 FEB 2001
NSW BMD has the death of Verna's husband in 1965
Bennie Howarth BURGE #41732,, district of Deniliquin
Parents: LEWIS,GEORGINA
If you are interested in contacting them the White Pages (phone directory) has 4 listings with the surname BURGE in Deniliquin.
There are quite a few mentions of "Prairie Home" which is the BURGE farm on Google ( a tip - is searching for Australian content use google.com.au rather than UK or US versions). The BURGE family still own the farm and it was badly hit by floods last year. One article actually mentions the other son of Verna.
Judith
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The Thomas BOYD connection is interesting. As Jomot says the name of the father of Alfred Ernest CURTIS, d 1905, is given as Thomas Boyd CURTIS. There are many entries in the Rate Books for Thomas BOYD and a Thomas Elder BOYD who seem to be the same person and well into buying and selling property all over what is now the inner suburban area of Melbourne. I could not see any of the addresses that we have for the CURTIS family linked to him, though.
Judith
Trying to help with some notes here too.
There were 2 Thomas Elder BOYDs
There was the elder and the younger.
Thomas Elder BOYD the elder died in 1860 and his will is digitised. He was a well known banker manager. One of the applicants for probate was his son, Thomas Elder BOYD, the younger.
The younger died in 1906
This man’s occupation, sighted in 1872, was as a partner in the firm Boyd and Currie shipping and marine insurance agents of Queen Street Melbourne.
Other descriptions and sightings include- Accountant. Commission agent.
I have not located marriage or births for this man, but there is this death notice in 1906.
At his home in His home at Brighton aged 71.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139175460
BOYD Thos Elder
Father Boyd Thos Elder
Mother Jessie SMALL
Age 71
Death Place Brtn
Yea: 1906
Reg. 8086
I have not found a specific address in Brighton for the man.
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Great finds Sue. I think Thomas Elder BOYD is a very real possibility. I guess we'll never know for sure ???
As well as your finds I see in Victoria Melbourne Directory (Sands) 1867 BOYD and CURRIE, shipping agents with premises in the CBD and Thomas E BOYD, of Boyd and Currie, S Y. So is SY = South Yarra, which is not a stone's throw from Prahran?
Speculation of course. ::)
I am not seeing a death reg for Thomas (the younger) nor a will on PROV. Couldn't see a suitable Electoral roll entry either but the last electoral roll would only be 1903.
Judith
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I am not seeing a death reg for Thomas (the younger) nor a will on PROV. Couldn't see a suitable Electoral roll entry either but the last electoral roll would only be 1903.
Judith
The death I gave above for 1906 at Brighton is the Thomas Elder BOYD , the younger ;D
Struggling to locate a burial ???
Sue
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Hmm
Thomas Elder BOYD (the younger) signed the application for probate of his father's will in 1860.
There is also a signature, as a witness, on the marriage certificate of Julia Laura CURTIS 1888, daughter of Julia CURTIS which appears to be for a Thos BOYD.
Seems to me that these signatures are from the same person (with the obvious missing middle name in the second signature). What do others think?
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Clever you Judith. ;D ;D
I have no doubts they are same signature .
I can see (I think) the initial E between Ths (abbreviated style) and Boyd..
Sue
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Smug grinning here...................... 8)
By the way I see Thomas Elder, the elder was reburied in 1900
Thomas E BOYD, died 12/10/1860
Buried 01/01/1900 at Fawkner Memorial Park
Old Pioneers - Removed from Old Melb. Cem, Location: FA-OPS****336
http://www.gmct.com.au/deceased-search.aspx
Can't see any sign of a burial for this elusive chap though.
Judith
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I wonder if Brighton Cemetery is the place.
I do not have access to the register, but judging by the locations of some BOYD deaths, it looks likely.
Sue
ADDING
St Kilda cemetery listing for Julia and others.
There is no MI
http://smct.org.au/deceasedsearch/
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Probably at Brighton I would have thought - unless at Fawkner Park seeing as his father was re-buried there just 6 years earlier.
Most odd that there is no death record. I can understand how children's births don't get registered but usually a death/funeral is handled by an undertaker who would not proceed without some formalities.
I don't see a marriage for him or other children ???
As we already know, Julia Laura MOORE and her husband are in Landcox St, Brighton in 1906 according to the electoral rolls.
Judith
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Thanks all for this continuous help :)
The research that you are all doing is fantastic and has completely blown me away.... :)
I am getting a little lost with it all so will need a few days next week to process it all of which will be a real joy...
I think eventually it would be of real interest to try and make contact with someone from the Burge family etc .
I will have a good look through it all in the week..
Thanks once again
Rob
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I am getting a little lost with it all so will need a few days next week to process it all of which will be a real joy...
Thanks once again
Rob
Hi Rob,
I agree it is confusing and tangled.
Put simply, the way I see it anyway, is that Thomas Elder BOYD is the man with whom Julia CURTIS had a relationship and children.
There was not a marriage.
To conform with the expectations of society at the time, she just twisted his name round a bit and added in CURTIS to make the children seem legitimate upon registration of their births etc. She continued to call herself Julia CURTIS and he continued known as Thomas Elder BOYD, but at times used CURTIS.
It seems the relationship endured at least "off and on" as he was a witness on the marriage of a daughter Julia Laura. {see signatures}.
When he died in 1906, his death notice says he died in Brighton-the suburb noted in many CURTIS/MOORE events- But unfortunately no specific address is given in 1906 for Thomas Elder BOYD's death place.
It may well be on his death certificate as well as other family information to confirm or otherwise this connection.
My version of things anyway ;D
Sue
ADDING
As a footnote here.
Looking back through my notes here I did find , but did not post, that Thomas Elder BOYD was a property owner of a few places around South Yarra and Prahran in 1860's and 70's.
and remembering Judith found property in the name Thomas CURTIS, it seems he was using both names BOYD and CURTIS at that time.
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I'd just add one more thing, Julia's death certificate says she married in Scotland and Thomas Elder Boyd Sr was born in Perth, Scotland.
Thomas Elder Boyd Jr appears to have been baptised in Rochdale, England on 06 Jan 1835, but without the middle name "Elder"
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5JT-TDJ
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Good find, Jomot.
I have to say that I agree with Sue in her speculation of Julia's life.
I found this article mostly about Thomas Elder BOYD senior but interesting - starts on p2
http://www.mt-evelyn.net/documents/ThingsPast/053%20Things%20Past%20July%202012.pdf
Judith
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I now have access to the death certificate for Thomas Elder BOYD but it doesn't really get us any further.
Date and place of death - 18 August 1906, Lecona?, Asling St Lower, Brighton, Victoria
Name and surname - Thomas Elder BOYD
Occupation of the deceased - Estate Agent
Sex and age - male, 71 years
Cause of death and Duration of illness- vascular disease of the heart, 40 years; Bronchitis and heart failure, 2 weeks
Name and surname of parents (if known) including mother's maiden surname, with occupation Thomas Elder BOYD, banker, Jessie BOYD, maiden name: SMALL
Medical attendant by whom certified and when he last saw deceased; J H McGee, 18 August 1906
Signature, description and address of informant - O R Blanch, authorised agent, Rowan St Elsternwick
Signature of deputy registrar, date and where registered - M Sandy? 21 August 1906
When and where buried, undertaker whom certified - 20 August 1906, Melbourne Cemetery, G S Sleight
Name and religion of Minister, or names of witnesses of burial; G A G Clewes, James A Archibald
Place of birth of the deceased and how long he or she resided in the Australian colonies or states (stating which) - Rochdale, England, about 60 years in Victoria
If married - Where, and at what age and to whom;
Names and ages of children of the deceased - both of these columns are struck through with no entry made.
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Oh what a shame - I was hoping his death certificate would produce a 'ta da' moment :(
Still, those signatures definitely looked like the same person to me, and all of the other 'clues' do strongly suggest that Thomas Elder Boyd was the father of Julia's children. I'm still surprised that there is no will though.
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I was hoping for that as well, but no joy!
Judith
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Here is some more about Julia Laura MOORE's children from Sue's list of births.
Aubrey Mervyn MOORE:
Confirmed at St Peter's Eastern Hill (Melbourne) 3 July 1910, aged 14
Married Ivy WESTWOOD, Victoria, 1919, #5399
Marriage Notice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/202440129
Electoral Rolls:
1921 with Ivy at 4 Lara St Prahran, electrician
1924, 1927, 1928 with Ivy at 115 Carpenter St, Brighton. Occ: electrician
1935 c/- C Sibrey, Murray St, Cootamundra, NSW, labourer
1936 c/- Flanigan, Marquis St, Junee NSW. labourer
1948, 1954 c/- R G Clayton, Ardmona, orchard hand
Comment: I wonder if something happened between 1928 when he was a tradesman with a wife and 1935 where he is a labourer, with no woman of the same surname listed with him.
Ardmona is near Shepparton which is/was a fruit-growing area. Cootamundra and Junee are in the Riverina district but in NSW - both smallish railway towns.
Funeral Notice: died March 1954, cremated Springvale Crematorium.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/26599735
Death Notice for MOORE, Aubrey Mervyn (Jack) mentions his parents, siblings Leslie and Verna, sister-in-law Jessie. He was apparently living at 2 Landcox St, East Brighton, but formerly of Ardmona.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/26599322
PROV has a will for him, died 28 March 1954, orchard hand, residing Brighton. Not digitised though.
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54
According to the Springvale deceased search 'the cremated remains have been scattered'
Will leave this for now and see if I can find something for the other son later. :)
Judith
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Wodonga and Towong Sentinel 28Mar1924 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/69645603
BONEGILLA STATE SCHOOL
[CONTRIUTED]
Aubrey Moore, a former pupil of this school, has succeded in passing a second examination held by the Victorian Railway Department, and will become a clerk in the railways very shortly.
The Argus 2Dec1926 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3824226
NEW INSOLVENTS.
Aubrey Mervyn Moore, of Carpenter street, Middle Brighton, railway employee. Causes of insolvency-
Expenses incurred owing to illness of wife and death of children, and pressure of creditors. Liabilities....
VIC death: 1960#10676 Ivy MOORE; Age 65; Father-Henry WESTWOOD; Mother-Ann (Schofield)
Place of birth: BRIGHTON; Place of death: BRIGHTON
Springvale Botanical Cemetery https://mgc.smct.org.au/deceasedsearch/result/251326
"The cremated remains have been scattered"
PROV Index to Wills, Probate and Administration Records http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jjg/
Ivy Moore; Widow; Brighton; DD: 20 Aug 1960
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Hi All,
I see Rob, our OP has been on the Leicestershire board in recent days interested in a family MOORE.
We have not seen any comment on the Julia CURTIS thread lately. Not after you Judith typed up the findings on the death of Thomas Elder BOYD on 13th Feb.
Hope notifications are arriving as they should be so OP can stay in touch.
Sue
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Hi all...
Thanks once again for all of your help.
Thanks Judith for the transcription of the death Thomas Elder Boyd death ...it makes it much easier for me to understand the handwriting. :)
You have given me plenty to go through...great stuff.
I have been a bit distracted on another part of the tree but will get cracking again with all of the info received. :)
Thanks all
R
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Excellent finds CoL. That would certainly explain the change of circumstance between his electoral roll entries for 1928 and 1935.
I'm not seeing any deaths between 1919 and 1926 to correspond with his statement in the insolvency notice that he had endured 'death of children'.
Electoral rolls show Ivy stayed on at 115 Carpenter St Brighton at least until 1954. I couldn't see anyone else of that surname at the same address.
I think the Bonegilla State school reference is to another Aubrey MOORE who was about the same age as Aubrey Mervyn MOORE. I came across the other one when searching the electoral rolls. He lived in the same general area and was also cremated at Springvale only 5 years after 'our' chap.
Judith
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VIC death: 1924 #8501 Robert Leslie Schofield MOORE; Age 5; Brighton
Father-Aubrey Mervyn MOORE; Mother-Ivy (WESTWOOD)
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Well found again, CoL. Couldn't see it with my searching using A---y >:( :( ::)
Leslie Neville MOORE b 1891, parents Thomas Leckenby MOORE and Julia Laura nee CURTIS.
Electoral roll:
From 1914 to 1925 he is with his parents at Lancox St Brighton
1926 at Belgrave with Jessie Meta MOORE (Belgrave is an outer Melbourne suburb)
1927-1931 at Ashburton (closer to city) with Jessie Meta MOORE
and then back to Brighton
1936, 1937 with Jessie Meta MOORE and his parents at 23 Landcox St, Brighton
1942 with Jessie Meta MOORE at Union St Brighton, clerk (His mother is at 2 Landcox St)
1949 with Jessie Meta MOORE at 2 Landcox St, Brighton, clerk
1963, with Agnes Rose MOORE at 2 Landcox St, Brighton, clerk
1967, 1968, 1972, 1977 at 2 Landcox St, Brighton, clerk
(Googlemap streetview shows 23 Landcox St has a new build now but 2 Landcox St looks original)
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Thanks Judb and CoL.
:) :) :)
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Hi Robin, you have been tracking Julia Curtis who arrived in Geelong 1857 and have found my ancestor Julia Curtis, mother of Julia Laura Moore, nee Curtis. Having looked at what you have found I am not sure that the Julia Curtis who arrived in 1857 is my GG Grandmother. Just a bit of information update I can give you which may be of some help but won't resolve the identity. My Grandmother Verna Muriel Moore, daughter of Thomas Lechenby Moore and Julia Laura Moore, nee Curtis died at age 35 from a secondary haemorrhage following an appendicectomy. Her 2 little boys, one being my father aged 5 and his little brother Malcolm age 2 then were sent to Brighton to live with their maternal grandparents and attend school. This was at "Lemerna" 2 Landcox Street Brighton. (point of interest Lemerna is a mix of Leslie, Mervyn and Verna's names). Also living at Lemerna at this time, were Julia Laura's maiden sister Gertrude (Constance Gertrude) and brother Herbert Henry. Dad says Auntie Gert mainly raised him and Mac. I have asked Dad if he has any knowledge of Julia Laura's parents or that of Thomas Moore's. He said he does not recall any thing being said or passed on about them, so the trail from our end stops here. We have also tried to find more information in official records and have had no further success than you. Julia Curtis who died at Hampton 1917 is buried at St Kilda cemetery with Ernest Edward, Albert Ernest, Herbert Henry and Constance Gertrude. Julia Laura is buried in Brighton cemetery with Thomas Moore and Verna Muriel. If we discover anything else we will post it. Cheers VMB
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Hi Bullatale1...
Sorry its taken so long to reply.
I have just logged into Rootschat for the first time in a long while and was surprised to see your message ...I must have missed that one.
At some stage I need to have a long look at Julia again and go through it all as its been put on the back burner while I take a look at another part of the family history ...!
What I read is that the Julia Curtis that arrived in 1857 in Geelong is not possibly your GG Grandmother...is that correct and so no connection with the Moores??
As I say I need to have another look at this??
Best Wishes
Rob
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A belated welcome to Rootschat, Bullatale 1.
How interesting to read about the later family.
Julia certainly kept us busy in hunting for her. As has been said before, (Reply #27) her death record does say that she was born in Leicestershire and that she had been in Victoria for 55 years which gives an arrival approx 1862, however all information would be hearsay, given that she was over 80 at the time of her death. The Julia CURTIS who arrived 1857 was also from Leicestershire.
Just another snippet as every little helps - Julia (1857 arrival) was hired by C E Strutt, St Kilda after her arriavl. Charles Edward STRUTT is recorded on the electoral roll in 1856 as a surgeon living in Boundary Rd, St Kilda which is now named Barkly St. So another (tenuous) co-incidence as Julia who was the mother of Julia Laura MOORE seems to have been living in Prahran (next suburb to St Kilda when her children were small.
There is another 1856 Election Roll entry for a Charles Edward STRUTT, immigration agent having a freehold in Geelong. A birth notice for a child to wife of C E STRUTT born in St Kilda in 1856 is printed in a Melbourne newspaper and the Geelong Advertiser, so he seems to have connections with both Melbourne and Geelong.
No extra help at all really except that there is still a possibility that Julia CURTIS - the mother of Julia Laura - may have arrived on the Admiral Boxer. in 1857.
Judith
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Just another snippet as every little helps - Julia (1857 arrival) was hired by C E Strutt, St Kilda after her arriavl. Charles Edward STRUTT is recorded on the electoral roll in 1856 as a surgeon living in Boundary Rd, St Kilda which is now named Barkly St. So another (tenuous) co-incidence as Julia who was the mother of Julia Laura MOORE seems to have been living in Prahran (next suburb to St Kilda when her children were small.
Judith
This item in 1855 is a letter from Chas E STRUTT, Assistant Immigration Commissioner requesting information about single unemployed females.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4813599
Sue
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Hi Judith...
Thanks once again for the research.
Julia certainly has been very interesting.
And no doubt more will come to light.
Thanks
Rob
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Hi Rob and Judith,
I don't know when my GG Great grandmother arrived in Australia as there is no one left to pass on the information. My Julia Curtis mother of Julia Laura did certainly reside in Prahran with her children at one stage as Ernest Edward died there as an infant from diphtheria. We cannot find any reference to a father of her children other than his name Thomas Curtis, which is strange as her maiden name is also Curtis. 1857 Julia Curtis may be the same person but our family cannot shed any diffinitive evidence for this unfortunately.
Good luck with your hunting, regard VMB
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I don't think it's certain that Julia CURTIS who died in 1917 is the same Julia CURTIS who arrived in 1857 although it's possible.
However I believe that there's reasonable evidence to show that the father of at least some of the children of the Julia CURTIS living in Prahran in the 1860s was most likely to be Thomas Elder BOYD.
See Reply #31 which shows someone called Thomas CURTIS was living in the same street as Julia at the time of the birth and death of Julia's baby in 1866/7
Reply #36 where Thomas CURTIS is recorded as Thomas Boyd CURTIS.
Reply #37 Thomas BOYD is a witness at the marriage of Julia Laura
Reply #46 has a comparison of the signatures of Thomas Elder BOYD (the younger) when he signed the application for probate of his father's will in 1860, and a signature of a Thomas BOYD as a witness, on the marriage certificate of Julia Laura CURTIS 1888, daughter of Julia CURTIS.
Seems to me that these signatures are from the same person (with the obvious missing middle name in the second signature).
Reply #52 - Sue has made a case for Thomas CURTIS and Thomas Elder BOYD being the same person.
However, it's all speculation and the definitive truth will probably never be known. (DNA testing?? :-\ ???)
Judith
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Thanks Judith.
Appreciated.
Julia is still keeping us in suspense.
Thanks again.