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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Alexandra195 on Friday 27 January 17 20:08 GMT (UK)
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Hello all, I have been searching for over year and I cannot found an exact date or place of birth for my great grandfather Charles Joseph Sargent who has Irish roots. I was hoping for some help.
His death certificate puts his birth in 1887 but that’s all I have. He died in 1950’s Birmingham, UK and was married to Elizabeth Sarah Gardner, I know this to be 100% correct – In their ordered marriage certificate Charles’ father is listed as ‘William Augustus Sargent’ (A unique name) with the fathers occupation: ‘Assistant director of the Royal College Of Surgeons in Ireland’
This comes as no surprise as we knew this line had Irish roots and William is 100% my 2x great grandfather. The only records of William Augustus Sargent I have found to exist are army pension records which state he was born in Dublin in 1828 and intended to live in Stepney, London after his Army discharge.
That said, I still can’t find his son, Charles’ birth anywhere or a single census with him in– In Irish records or English. But I know these 3 facts:
1) In his marriage certificate to Elizabeth in Prestwich Manchester, Charles' residence is listed as Cheetham, Manchester.
2) In his death certificate his name is Charles Joseph Sargent ALSO KNOWN AS William Joseph Sargent (still can’t find birth records in this name though)
3) He does not appear in the 1939 register with the rest of the household, even though I know he was still alive.
So could people advise me on how to find his DOB/Place of birth or possibly assist in a search.. I would be so grateful as I’ve been searching for so long on these two people, thank you.
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What is Charles occupation on the 1924 marriage cert?
Does his age on the marriage cert correspond to around 1887?
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Have you found Charles himself in any census records? If so, what's listed for his place of birth?
The first complete census for Ireland in 1901. It and 1911 are online free -
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
Any idea what religion Charles would have been?
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Have you contacted the RCSI in Dublin to ask if their archives list a William Augustus Sargent as an assistant director in the late 1800s or early 1900s?
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What is Charles occupation on the 1924 marriage cert?
Does his age on the marriage cert correspond to around 1887?
Hi there, thanks for replying, I don't have the certificate with me now so I don't recall the occupation. But me and my sister did the math and it gave us 1887 also.
Have you found Charles himself in any census records? If so, what's listed for his place of birth?
The first complete census for Ireland in 1901. It and 1911 are online free -
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
Any idea what religion Charles would have been?
Thanks for replying, I can't find him on any census at all. It seems he moved from Manchester to Birmingham after his Marriage in 1824, from then onwards I know his whereabouts. I've looked at electoral rolls and census records in 1901 and 1911 in Manchester before this and can't find a trace! :( I'm guessing he moved around a lot.
Also that line of my family are catholic.
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An 1857 newspaper mentions a William A Sargent as having gained a First Place entrance at Trinity College, Dublin, having formerly been a pupil at Tipperary Grammar. Later newspaper articles would suggest this chap, however, was likely to have been a William Albert Sargent.
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There's a C.S. (male) age 14, Roman Catholic, born Dublin City, in 1901 census. Quite possibly not him but would be worth making a note of him for now (people in institutions are listed under initials).
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Castleknock/Cabragh/1268764
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/DublinNorth/
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Alexandra195,
William is 100% my 2x great grandfather
unfortunately, whilst you know it to be 100% certain that the father was listed as William Augustus Sargent and that the occupation was listed as Assistant Director, Royal College Surgeons Ireland, until you have proof that corroborates this, you cannot be 100% certain that these were true facts.
It is highly probable that no one would have checked the information given by Charles for his marriage, and so it is not impossible that he was either (a) not totally truthful or (b) gave information he believed to be true, but which may not have actually been so.
You refer to Army records for a William Augustus Sargent. Do you have anything else to connect that William with your Charles? He would have been c 59 yrs old at time of your chaps birth. Not impossible, but quite old.
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There's a C.S. (male) age 14, Roman Catholic, born Dublin City, in 1901 census. Quite possibly not him but would be worth making a note of him for now (people in institutions are listed under initials).
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Castleknock/Cabragh/1268764
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/DublinNorth/
Thank you, this may be useful!
Alexandra195, William is 100% my 2x great grandfather
unfortunately, whilst you know it to be 100% certain that the father was listed as William Augustus Sargent and that the occupation was listed as Assistant Director, Royal College Surgeons Ireland, until you have proof that corroborates this, you cannot be 100% certain that these were true facts.
It is highly probable that no one would have checked the information given by Charles for his marriage, and so it is not impossible that he was either (a) not totally truthful or (b) gave information he believed to be true, but which may not have actually been so.
You refer to Army records for a William Augustus Sargent. Do you have anything else to connect that William with your Charles? He would have been c 59 yrs old at time of your chaps birth. Not impossible, but quite old.
It’s true that the age gap has left me puzzled although the evidence seems to match too well. My Grandad was also called William Augustus Sargent (1927-2012) and was born in Manchester before moving to Birmingham almost instantly and he always insisted he was Irish. So Charles named his only son exactly after his father according to the marriage certificate. Doing record searches of William's seems to bring virtually nothing back apart from these 2 people
The only other evidence that links the army records is he was in the ‘Royal Army Medical Corps’ for 9 years. And both the marriage and the army records mention Dublin. I guess this really is a tough one to crack so I’m going by strong coincidence ::)
You're right though, I guess my main hope is contacting RCSI archives about this. Thanks for your help!
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The army record shows that William as having completed c21 years of service in total (first 12 year period between North America, Gibralter, West Indies and East Indies). The last period being from c1860-69. At discharge, aged 41.5yrs, he was ranked a Private and against 'Trade' it stated none.
Unfortunately, given his age, rank and no listed trade, it would, to my mind at least, seem quite a 'jump' thereafter, to reach status of 'assistant director of the RCSI', unless it was perhaps a more administrative based post than a medical one, and his varied experience was considered suitable.
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You can check some 'Sargent' records for St Mary's parish, Dublin at www.irishgenealogy.ie . Whilst there is a William baptised 1830, no middle name seems to be noted.
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In case you haven't already considered them and/or ruled them out, here are another few 1901/1911 Dublin census entries, to keep avenues of research open:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jda/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mansion_House/Merrion_Row/86417/
The Charles at school in Marino in 1901, seems to be the same Charles of the 1911 census (both show as born Waterford). Interestingly, the Maria of the 1911 entry, appears in 1901 as 'married', yet no husband is present, and although noted as widow by 1911, she still answered that she was 30 years married and had 7 children born with 6 still living. Also, her elder daughter, Maria, is noted as born Pembroke (wonder if the one in Wales or if somewhere else).
Obviously it would be good to establish who Maria snr was married to, even if only to then rule out that group.
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I also find it a bit of a stretch going from Charles to 'father' William Augustus. Perhaps W.A. Sargent was his grandfather who raised him- there's certainly enough of a gap!
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Ok, have now found a Waterford birth for Dorothea, sibling of Charles, children of Maria. Her husband was a Henry Richard Sargent, a wine merchant, which, for the time being, seems to rule them out.
Henry and Maria married in Pembroke, Wales in 1879.
May not be the same Henry, however an 80yr old Henry Sargent died in Dublin in 1903, but it seems to be only page one of the register that is opening on irishgenealogy, and he isn't in that, so can't check details.
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I can't find that death either even checking quite a few pages before and after the linked one :-\
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Found what appears to be Henry and Maria (indexed as Mary), minus the children, boarding in Toxteth Park, Lancashire in 1891, with Henry's birth year c1840 (about 20yrs older than his wife), so would have been c63yrs in 1903, therefore possibly the 1903 death is a different Henry.
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Alexandra195, please do let us know what RCSI say once you have contacted them, and please give us an indication of Charles' (aka William) occupation/s once you have checked the marriage and death records again.
Did he also have an 'also known as' entry on the marriage certificate? Whoever registered the death obviously was aware of the 'known as' name, do you know which, ie Charles or William, the family used for him?
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Also, what records/when Charles used each version of his name?
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Going back to the William Augustus Sargent of the Army records having been discharged in 1869 and saying he would be residing in Stepney, London, have you researched this birth of a William Augustus Sargent in Mile End Old Town (which I believe was part of Stepney), London in 1893 in case of any links back to the 'army' William?:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2F9K-NZB
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Hey everyone, I'm overwhelmed with the help so thank you. Your ideas give me a lot to research and think about that I hadn't before :)
Also, what records/when Charles used each version of his name?
In his marriage certificate and all electoral rolls he used Charles Joseph Sargent so from 1924-1953. I only discovered the second name when I ordered his full death certificate. This seems to be the only mention of the name, I have a feeling it could be his birth name and he changed it to Charles. There was a William Joseph Sargent born in South Dublin in 1886 but it's only a text record (Irish Birth Index) and I'm unsure of how to proceed in finding more information about this.
Going back to the William Augustus Sargent of the Army records having been discharged in 1869 and saying he would be residing in Stepney, London, have you researched this birth of a William Augustus Sargent in Mile End Old Town (which I believe was part of Stepney), London in 1893 in case of any links back to the 'army' William?:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2F9K-NZB
I haven't seen this before but thank you. I will definitely get researching this.
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William Joseph 1886
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02615/1965621.pdf
Father William, a porter.
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It is easy to misread handwritten certificates. It would be very useful to post a scan or photo of the marriage cert saying "Assistant director, RCSI."
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William Joseph 1886
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02615/1965621.pdf
Father William, a porter.
I find this thread a bit confusing. Has it been pointed out that the father on this birth cert is consistent with the army records, and also with the following 1900 death cert in Dublin, for William Sargent, aged 67, Army pensioner and porter.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05762/4628115.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05762/4628115.pdf)
So he is obviously not going to appear in the 1901 or 1911 census.
My guess is that the 1886 birth is your man, and the 1900 death is that of his father. My further guess is that the "Assistant Director RCSI" is either a misreading, or a classic piece of social promotion.
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The only other evidence that links the army records is he was in the ‘Royal Army Medical Corps’ for 9 years.
I presume you are just being anachronistic here? The RAMC was only created in 1898, so a soldier discharged in the 1860s could not have served in this corps.
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The only other evidence that links the army records is he was in the ‘Royal Army Medical Corps’ for 9 years.
I presume you are just being anachronistic here? The RAMC was only created in 1898, so a soldier discharged in the 1860s could not have served in this corps.
Army Hospital Corps - that perhaps did give the man some experience to work within a medical environment but perhaps he may have enhanced his position - director/porter . :-\
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This could be Charles with his mother Mary in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Fitzwilliam/Charlemont_Avenue/1305737/
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This could be Charles with his mother Mary in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Fitzwilliam/Charlemont_Avenue/1305737/
Note that they are in the same street (Charlemont) as given on the 1900 death cert for William Sargent. So, these do seem to be William's widow and children.
I also think this says that my guess is right!
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Both Charlemont Street and Avenue are mentioned but it is the right area.
I cannot see a Conway/Sargent marriage nor a birth for the other child- I think she is Mary F.
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William Francis born 1876- son of William & Mary (Conway)-
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=harrington-street_mf_1865-1890_ba_0250
Another child- Elizabeth Maria/Mary born 1878-
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=harrington-street_mf_1865-1890_ba_0315
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That's great Aghadowey. :)
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Widowed Mary Sargeant with daughter Elizabeth in 1911-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Fitzwilliam/Charlemont_Mall/79143
Mary Sargeant 'widow of a porter' died 1912-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1912/05352/4491222.pdf
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This is interesting. I was looking for the young boarder's birth - perhaps with a Sargent mother.
I came across this birth
Eileen Sargent 1906 13 Charlemont Street
Father Charles, a Soldier and mother Ellen Conway.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1906/01741/1687820.pdf
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Don't remember this being posted yet-
baptism in 1886 lists son as Patrick Joseph! see here (https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/20e6100081399?b=https%3A%2F%2Fchurchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fsearch.jsp%3Fnamefm%3Dwilliam%26namel%3Dsargeant%26location%3D%26yyfrom%3D%26yyto%3D%26submit%3DSearch)
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As a possibility, there is a Charles Sargent in overseas military records at Jullundur, Punjab, India at 1911, birth noted as 1884 St Catherine, Dublin.
Or, a Charles Sargent b1866 Dublin, listed on attestation papers for Royal Artillery in 1919, with nok listed as a niece, Miss Mulvey, Waltham House, Waltham Terrace, Dublin. Nothing listed under marriage/children. Discharged to an address in Scarborough in 1921.
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As a possibility, there is a Charles Sargent in overseas military records at Jullundur, Punjab, India at 1911, birth noted as 1884 St Catherine, Dublin.
Sounds good :)
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One other little tidbit-
1886- William & Mary Sargent godparents to Kane child - see here (https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/15930c0113295?b=https%3A%2F%2Fchurchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fsearch.jsp%3Fnamefm%3Dwilliam%26namel%3Dsargeant%26location%3D%26yyfrom%3D%26yyto%3D%26submit%3DSearch)
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As a possibility, there is a Charles Sargent in overseas military records at Jullundur, Punjab, India at 1911, birth noted as 1884 St Catherine, Dublin.
Hi, apologies for the late reply. I am sure this is my great grandfather, he was serving in Jullundur at this time. I would be very grateful if you could tell me where I can find this information/record?
Thank you!