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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: Bruce42 on Sunday 12 February 17 11:04 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for the parents, siblings etc., of Jane Soutar born 1832 died 1928, who married Andrew Robbie in Clova, Angus. Her daughter was Ann Winter Robbie (1856-1936), my great grandmother, who married David Ogilvy, at Whitehaugh, Glen Clova, 11 December 1878.
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Go to Scotland's People https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk buy the minimum credits.
Go to Statutory Records Select Deaths type in Soutar and other names Robbie and you will get this.
SOUTAR JANE 94 1928 278/ 2 Cortachy and Clova
Download this records and it will give you her parents and additional information such as where she lived, cause of death, who the informant was, etc.
Don
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Hi ,
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTV9-LHZ
You can download that marriage certificate from the ScotlandsPeople website(credits required) , that should give you the parents of Jane Soutar.
ev
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Many thanks DonM and ev
I do realise that it is difficult to get information in Scotland without paying. However, if I identified the parents, I would want their parents and siblings, so that it can become never ending. Consequently, I try to get family tree information from sites where I don’t have to pay - in principle.
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Hi ,
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTV9-LHZ
You can download that marriage certificate from the ScotlandsPeople website(credits required) , that should give you the parents of Jane Soutar.
ev
and as a bonus, an 1855 marriage registration should note the birthplaces of those marrying.
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It would appear that in 1861 Ann Winter Robbie is not with her parents and siblings but living with her maternal grandfather, John Soutar, at Drums, Clova. He is a Blacksmith born 1799 in Airlie. Also in the household are Alexander Soutar age 22 born Clova (who is described as a servant but probably John's son);Alex Milne age 6 born Fearn, a grandson; Ann Robbie age 5 born Clova, a grandaughter; and Helen Robbie age 18 born Clova, a Housekeeper.
Can't find John Soutar in 1851, but in 1841 he is living at Drums, age 44 occupation Blacksmith. With him are a number of children as follows:-
Ann 15
May 10
Jean 8
William 6
George 4
Alex 2
Andrew 1 month
From Familysearch these all appear to be the children of John Soutar and Ann Crighton. May was christened Marjory and Jean was christened Jane ( in 1833). Their mother Ann is not present but there is a servant,Margaret Moir, listed. Familysearch also lists another son called Charles born in 1830 but he is missing from the census so may have died young.
While I believe this is the correct family, the 1855 marriage of Jane to Andrew Robbie should go a long way to proving the facts conclusively.
Isobel
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Extremely useful!
That little girl, Ann Winter Robbie, married David Ogilvy in 1878, and I am a direct descendent.
It is said that she went to school with John Brown, favourite ghillie of Queen Victoria.
A fine elegant statuesque lady of 5'11".
Known in the family as "Big Granny".
[Her mother, Jane Soutar was "Little Granny" who died in 1928.]
Until married, she lived at Whitehaugh, Clova.
Survived 44 years after her husband's death, bringing up seven children and running 3000 acre farm. The sheep on the farm were most probably the old white face breed, small and hardy with fine wool. The local sheep in 21st century are still branded "OR" = Ogilvy Rottal.
Later at Crossmill where much of the family spent their holidays.
She died in 1936.
Best wishes
Bruce42
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John SOUTER (note spelling) and Ann Crichton were the parents of Jane (later called Jean on the 1841 Census). On the 1841 Census, John is living at Drums with daughters Ann, May (Marjory), Jean (Jane) & sons William, George, Alexander & Andrew. Their son Charles, born 1830, is not listed with them although there is a Charles the right age on the St Cyrus Parish Census. He certainly hadn’t died as he made his way somehow (I’m still trying to trace his arrival) to Australia in the 1850’s, where he set up as a blacksmith in Eltham, just outside Melbourne. He was my great-great grandfather. He married and had seven children, only two of whom survived to adulthood, one my great-grandmother Eba Jean.
In the 1851 Census, John is at Drums with children Ann, James, Charles, Alexander & Andrew. No wife Ann is listed on either Census and I can’t find any of them at Drums in the 1861 Census. Where did you find that, IsobelW? I also can’t find a death that tallies with our Ann Crichton/Souter. Anyone have any clues?
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John SOUTER (note spelling)
Please don't attach any significance to spelling until about the end of the 19th century. Spelling was at the whim of whoever was writing the word or name down, and a clerk in a different parish, or the same clerk at a different time, might spell the same name in a different way.
Note that the surnames of the family that Isobelw found at Drums in 1861 are spelled Soutar not Souter.
and Ann Crichton were the parents of Jane (later called Jean on the 1841 Census).
Jane and Jean are totally interchangeable. It is very common indeed for someone recorded as Jane in one record to turn up as Jean in another, and vice versa. (The same applies, less logically, to Janet and Jessie, and there are other pairs including Donald/Daniel and Peter/Patrick.)
I take it from the posts above that this is Drums in Clova rather than Drums in the parish of Brechin (or any other place called Drums). That being so, it is very likely that no record survives of Ann Crichton's death. Presumably she died before 1851, as she wasn't in either the 1841 or 1851 census, but the SP web site lists no record in the surviving parish register of the parish of Cortachy and Clova, and the book of pre-1855 monumental inscriptions does not list her in Cortachy, Clova or Glen Prosen kirkyards.
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I do realise that it is difficult to get information in Scotland without paying. However, if I identified the parents, I would want their parents and siblings, so that it can become never ending. Consequently, I try to get family tree information from sites where I don’t have to pay - in principle.
Not only is is easier to get information in Scotland than in almost every other country, it is also cheaper than most.
Just be glad you are not trying to do the same research in England and Wales, where the information collected is inferior, and every certificate costs more than six times what a Scottish one costs, or a mere four times if it's one of the ones that is being experimentally offered online. Or various parts of Australia where one certificate can cost two or three times what even an English one costs.
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
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Charles’s father, John Soutar, was also a blacksmith.
I too have considered Soutar and Souter, as well as Jane and Jean, interchangeable.
I have more information on Jane Soutar, my great grandmother:
Also known as Jean Souter. As a child, lived at The Drums, Glen Clova.
In 1881 Jane was a widow farming at Whitehaugh (or White Haugh) Farm House, Clova, Angus employing 1 man and 1 boy, with her children David 15, Jeannie 13, and William 8.
'Depopulation...due to clearances for shooting...In the upper glen, only two houses were occupied...Whitehaugh (occupied) by a tenacious woman and young children...The stubborn survivor was Mrs Robbie in Whitehaugh, born Jane Souter, the blacksmith's daughter. She had kept on Whitehaugh...and continued to farm after everyone had gone...The rest of the family had left the glen. It was perhaps when son David died of TB in 1895 that she gave up the struggle and retired with Jeanie to a cottage at Crossmill, close to her married daughter and a pair of young granddaughters (where reportedly the pugnacious old lady attempted to govern Rottal.) From "Glen Clova through the ages" - by Flora Davidson
This "Little Granny" was very small and lived at Crossmill (or Crossmiln) in her latter years. She was a very religious, sweet, gentle, friendly person who even in her nineties looked a picture in a black dress, white shawl and crocheted white lace cap with black ribbon. She died in 1928 aged 96. In those far off days, Crossmill was thought of as a fairy cottage smothered in flowers: roses everywhere, honeysuckle framing the gateway, the water trough surrounded by fury mimulus and on either side of the door steps, clumps of mignonette. Her daughter, Ann Winter Ogilvy nee Robbie, was always referred to as "Big Granny"
Jane was a very small lady and was the "Little Granny" who soaked grain in whisky (or maize in cheap brandy), spreading it over the yard to attract the grouse, while the beaters were out on the Rottal Lodge estate. The grouse would be seen staggering around, and little Granny would pick them up, wring their necks and put into a water butt (or trough), saying: "Och, the purr wee thingees, I'll just hae to put them oot o' their misery!"
She was said to sleep in a curtained wall-bed in the kitchen, living on bannocks (oatcakes), home-made butter, brimstone and treacle, and tea brewed all day on the range until it was black and rank.
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Thank you, Forfarian & Bruce42. Very informative. Some records are so detailed and complete, and, alas, others are nonexistent - all part of the intriguing puzzle! And yes, it is the Drums in Clova in the case of our Souters. Love your comment on certificate costs: here in Australia, download copies are $25.10 and actual Certificates $35! Each! ScotlandsPeople’s costs are a breath of fresh air!
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Jane's husband, Andrew Robbie, is my first cousin six times removed.
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Clearances of hill shepherds was due to the invention of the refrigerated ship by Bells on the Clyde opening the country up to frozen lamb from Oz & NZ. Formerly these countries only exported the wool. The result was hill farming here became uneconomic & deer replaced the sheep along with keepers & shooting lodges!
Skoosh.