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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: zumaro on Monday 13 March 17 13:51 GMT (UK)

Title: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: zumaro on Monday 13 March 17 13:51 GMT (UK)
I feel guilty about posting another query about Thomas Mark Moody, as we failed to track him down in Yorkshire in another subforum. But his arrival in New Zealand is as mystifying as his birthplace. Supposedly he was born circa 1854/55 in Goole, Yorkshire - that is what is on his death certificate, and it feels oddly specific enough to be true. By January 1st 1876 he is in Napier, marrying Mary Ann Tomlyn. My question is how did he get to New Zealand?

I can find a Thomas Moody on the Appeles leaving Glasgow and arriving in Lyttleton in May 1874, but it says he is from Hants and a tinworker, whereas Thomas Mark was a labourer from Yorkshire. Tinworker sounds too skilled for the kind of railway work that Thomas Mark Moody did, so I am thinking this is not him. 

Any advice on tracking him down? He is easy after 1876 - we have him thoroughly covered, but his origins are mysterious.
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: TwiggyTree on Monday 13 March 17 14:19 GMT (UK)
Might an ITM (Intention to Marry) shed a little light on how long he had been in NZ; or the marriage certificate itself to narrow down the years to search?
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: TwiggyTree on Monday 13 March 17 14:35 GMT (UK)
How long did his death certificate say he'd been in NZ?
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: aghadowey on Monday 13 March 17 14:37 GMT (UK)
Link to earlier topic in case there are any useful clues there-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=757897.msg6080842#msg6080842
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: zumaro on Monday 13 March 17 15:22 GMT (UK)
Hi Twiggytree - where do we find an Intention to Marry?

His death certificate, dated 30 Sept 1942 says he had been in New Zealand 70 years. But this was after a remarriage at age '80' in 1931 according to the 1942 death certificate, on which he is said to be 88 at the time of death, so he aged 8 years over the 11 years he was married. On the death certificate he is also said to be '20' at the time of his first marriage in 1876, but his new wife would probably not have known these details.

The marriage certificate unluckily just says his age is Full in 1876. 

In short none of these numbers are consistent with each other. In the family bible it says he is born April 1 1855, but who knows if this is correct.

That other thread is the Yorkshire thread I was referring to - we failed to track down a really watertight candidate for his birth as well. This is one slippery man to pin down.
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: TwiggyTree on Monday 13 March 17 15:51 GMT (UK)
Intentions to Marry are usually held at the Wellington office of Archives NZ.  It may be that is still not open after last year's earthquake.  They can be a bit ambiguous as it notes 'time in the area' where one intends to marry, but not necessarily in NZ as a whole.  Sometimes though it can help.  These are not online and require someone to look them up.


Another abstract line of investigation is, that if TMM has any run-ins with the law as a result of his character, he might feature in the Police Gazettes.  The information therein is usually a one-liner with vital statistics only.
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: spades on Monday 13 March 17 19:38 GMT (UK)
Hi Zumaro,

I can get the Intention to Marry Notice for you.

Spades
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: zumaro on Monday 13 March 17 22:45 GMT (UK)
Hi Spades
That would be amazing if you could do that - I am so grateful! I did not even know there was such a thing as an Intention to Marry, so once again I learn new techniques from RootsChat. I don't live in New Zealand, so I have no chance to do something like this for myself, so I really do appreciate this offer.

For Police Gazettes, are there online sources? The type of notices I see tend to be only newspaper reports, and there are a few Thomas Moodys around (including in Napier), so I am never sure quite who I am looking at.
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 14 March 17 00:07 GMT (UK)

Do you have the death certificate for Mary Ann MOODY nee TOMLYN?

Can you please identify the children as listed, and name the informant?
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: zumaro on Tuesday 14 March 17 02:06 GMT (UK)
Alas I have never requested Mary Ann Tomlyn's death certificate, because the dates and most other facts recorded on it are well sourced, between online and family resources. Thomas is less well recorded because Mary Ann sued for separation in 1918, and he went on to remarry after her death in 1926, effectively cutting him off from the family - he was not a well liked man.

The family are easy to list however: John Edwin, Etty Tomlyn, William Ernest, Arthur Thomas, Frederick Charles (x2 as an earlier one died in infancy), Mary Elizabeth, Arthur Thomas, Albert Henry, Lily Margaret, Thomas Henry, Eva May and Ethel Maude. That is the listing in Mary Ann's family bible dated 1899.
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 14 March 17 03:43 GMT (UK)
Is this your MOODY /TOMLYN family?  Lucy and Florry, having only one given name, might be another family.

NZ BDM births
1877/173          MOODY  John Edwin         parents Mary Ann / Thomas
1878/1366        MOODY  Etty Tomlyn        parents Mary Ann / Thomas
1879/16675      MOODY  William Ernest     parents Mary Ann / Thomas 
1880/6434        MOODY  Lucy                   parents Mary Ann / Thomas
1881/6535        MOODY  Arthur Thomas    parents Mary Ann / Thomas 
1883/5424        MOODY  Frederick Charles parents Mary Ann / Thomas
1884/11992      MOODY  Florry                  parents Mary Ann / Thomas
1885/1410        MOODY  Mary Elizabeth     parents Mary Ann / Thomas Mark
1887/3524        MOODY  Albert Henry        parents Mary Ann / Thomas
1888/8812        MOODY  Lily Margaret       parents Mary Ann / Thomas 
1890/3769        MOODY  John William        parents Mary Ann / Thomas  (b. 26 Jan 1890)
1892/10677      MOODY  Eva May              parents Mary Ann / Thomas
1895/2980        MOODY  Ethel Maud          parents Mary Ann / Thomas
1899/12612      MOODY  Frederick Charles parents Mary Ann / Thomas
1937/67817      MOODY  Thomas Henry     parents Mary Ann / Thomas Mark (b. 25 Jun 1890)

death
1976 / 32604 MOODY John William  b. 25 Jan 1890

Are there two MOODY families with parents Thomas and Mary Ann?

In 1937 the birth of Thomas Henry MOODY is retrospectively registered, and I will assume that Thomas Henry initiates this registration.  At 1937, and while his father is still alive, Thomas names his father with two given names. 

Can you scan the pages from the bible, with the names, and put on this forum?

You have said that you have the two birth records which list father as Thomas Mark?

Who are the informants on these certificates?
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: zumaro on Tuesday 14 March 17 06:37 GMT (UK)
Thats more or less them - John William, Lucy and Florry belong to another Moody family, with the same parental names. I think that Mary Ann is also Tomlyn in the second family, just to make it really confusing.  I have attached a photo of the bible page from my Mary Ann - sorry it is a bit fuzzy at the edges because I used the Google tool for photoing these things, without realising it was averaging a few shots, which doesn't work so well for documents!

On both birth certificates I have, the informant is listed as Mary Ann Moody or MA Moody - one of them is for Mary Elizabeth, and the other for John Edwin (so not listed as Thomas Mark for the father, but just Thomas).
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: zumaro on Tuesday 14 March 17 06:47 GMT (UK)
The birth certificate for Mary Elizabeth
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 14 March 17 07:37 GMT (UK)
Thank you for the image. I am looking for anything that might be useful. It looks to be written in the same hand, so one recorder. And you know this to be Mary Ann's writing? Why are ages for Thomas and Mary Ann given as 46 etc.

                                             fathers name in full  **
Thomas Mark MOODY  age 46 the 1 April 18**
Mary Ann MOODY mothers name  age  4*
                                                           23 July 18**

John Edwin born 4 Dec 1877 Napier **     
Etty Thomlyn born 18 Jan 1878    do         (on this line there is a marker before the name)

(John Edwin was born 9 Dec 1876......and mother Mary Ann never corrected this?)


Arthur Thomas  (on this line there is a marker before the name)

Ethel Maud    (was she a frail baby and not expected to live ie. "death" written below her name. When did she die?)


Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 14 March 17 19:32 GMT (UK)

Ethel Maud    (was she a frail baby and not expected to live ie. "death" written below her name. When did she die?)

Death Notice  :(    >

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DTN18960201.2.5
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: zumaro on Wednesday 15 March 17 03:20 GMT (UK)
I hadn't found that death notice before thanks.

Luckily I have found a clearer image than the last one, and another image that I hadn't noticed before. Also Mary Ann Tomlyn's own birth certificate that she obtained in 1908 apparently. I have no idea why she insists on not giving the parents' birth years, rather than their ages. I just noted that the second page, which I didn't read properly before is dated 1922, and brings the information more up to date. Alas the information is inconsistent...

I assume that Thomas Mark's birthday must be April 1st, but she has changed her own birthdate from July 23 to July 30. Maybe the obtaining of her birth certificate in 1908 corrected a previous mistake? Her entries are consistent with July 30 1853 being her birth date, but Thomas Mark could be a range of years based on this evidence - 1854 or 1855 are the most likely?
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: zumaro on Wednesday 15 March 17 03:23 GMT (UK)
Thomas Mark's death certificate
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 15 March 17 03:48 GMT (UK)
Hi zumaro

Can you just clarify please, have you been able to confirm (positively) who the parents of Thomas (Mark) MOODY, were ??

[Or is that something you're working towards with this thread ? ]

  ~  Lu

 
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: zumaro on Wednesday 15 March 17 03:56 GMT (UK)
No - we haven't even confirmed that in the previous thread, so that just sits on the table. There are no watertight candidates for who he is, that agree with 'known' dates and families in Yorkshire at the time. Here I am just trying to track down when he might have come to New Zealand, and on what ship! That seems just as unknowable... It is almost as if he is not Thomas Mark Moody at all
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 15 March 17 04:26 GMT (UK)
Hi zumaro

Thanks for the clarification.   

I read through your earlier thread as well as this one when it popped up in this forum the other day.
[Also saw your online "tree". ]

Have been "chipping away" to see if I can find clues re: arrival of Thomas MOODY ... with no real joy so far.  [That includes endeavouring to eliminate others of same name. ]

I can see you have put much effort into your search - procuring records etc. - and have given us here, a very good account of your findings.   Pleasing ... because it's easy to follow.   ;)

Nowhere though, have I seen you mention that you have the "printout" for the second marriage of Thomas MOODY to Lydia BURGESS (1931)  ?   

    ~  Lu



Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 15 March 17 04:34 GMT (UK)
In researching the origins, and arrival in New Zealand, of Thomas MOODY, is would be useful to see what degree of attachment he has to the second given name, Mark.

It is useful to see the occasions of, and context in which the second given name is recorded, also the author.

Thomas MOODY does not use the name at marriage. He does not give the name to a son.

Birth record of daughter Mary Elizabeth shows father as Thomas Mark - mother is the informant.

Birth record, 1936, for son Henry Thomas names father with two given names - Henry is the author?

Name in bible uses second given name - author is wife Mary Ann.

Do you see any occasion where Thomas MOODY names himself as Thomas Mark MOODY?

Might be useful to keep in mind when looking for him in early life.

Bible entries at 1922, after Mary Ann has her birth certificate, 1908, her birth date again 1 April?.
 

Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 15 March 17 04:53 GMT (UK)
... (rightly or wrongly)  :D   ... I referred to him earlier as simply "Thomas MOODY" ... because New Zealand records show for the most part, that that was his name.   

Yes, two marriages as plain "Thomas" ... plus numerous children and his name given (mostly) as "Thomas".   Likewise electoral listings ... (perhaps) reports of him in newspapers ... etc.   And his death.

So, if not already in hand, I think the purchase of a "printout" for the second marriage (1931), would be a wise move.  ;)   [Remembering that Thomas MOODY himself will have supplied the
information  ... and who knows, it may just provide that vital clue ?    ;D ]

   ~  Lu   
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: zumaro on Wednesday 15 March 17 09:18 GMT (UK)
Maybe it is only Mary Ann that bothers to write Mark down - not sure why it is significant to her alone! Probably easier to hide as plain Thomas Moody as its a common name. I am not sure if there are any arrests against him, but he was known to be a drunken brawler, so thats likely.

I just ordered the other marriage certificate. Lets see what it might say. I don't think I have seen one of the more recent NZ certificates and what it might have on it. Are they as helpful as the Scottish ones?
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 15 March 17 09:25 GMT (UK)

The second marriage certificate should ask for parents names and should be useful to your research.
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: zumaro on Wednesday 15 March 17 10:12 GMT (UK)
That would be great. Somehow you just know that he will have avoided writing down anything useful... Here's hoping! The early certificates don't have this detail on at all, so I guess I never thought of bothering about getting this one (no discredit to his new wife, who I am sure was lovely!)
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: TwiggyTree on Wednesday 15 March 17 19:09 GMT (UK)
I was having a quick look on Archway for TMM but didn't come up with anything.

http://archway.archives.govt.nz (http://archway.archives.govt.nz)

RCers: Why wouldn't there be a divorce file?
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: TwiggyTree on Wednesday 15 March 17 19:32 GMT (UK)
Zumaro, not sure if you ordered the "print out" or the certificate but generally it is recommended to get the former.

http://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/abouttherecords (http://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/abouttherecords)

The print out contains the information required to obtain a marriage license. The certificate however may only have part of that information.

http://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/dataCollected/marriage (http://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/dataCollected/marriage)
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 15 March 17 19:49 GMT (UK)
I was having a quick look on Archway for TMM but didn't come up with anything.

http://archway.archives.govt.nz (http://archway.archives.govt.nz)

RCers: Why wouldn't there be a divorce file?

Hi Twiggy

First wife Mary Ann, had died before he remarried in 1931 ... (I think that right ).

   ~   Lu
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: zumaro on Thursday 16 March 17 02:44 GMT (UK)
Yes it is the printout I ordered and not the certificate - I have made that mistake before already...
Mary Ann died in 1926 I think, so there is no divorce. However there was a separation order in 1918 that I have found in the papers. This attachment is from the Dominion February 12 1918.

From what I understand 'the family' sued Thomas Mark, so I think that Mary Ann had the backing of the children as well.  How rare was this kind of thing in 1918?
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: zumaro on Tuesday 21 March 17 05:06 GMT (UK)
The certificate from Thomas Moody's second marriage arrived, and I suppose we wouldn't expect it to do anything except muddy the waters....  So he was born at sea, with parents John and Sarah Moody, John being a ship's carpenter.  Which may or may not fit in with his death certificate which says he was born in Goole Yorkshire.

How does one proceed with making anything of this, either verifying it or declaring it all to be nonsense...

And my apologies - at this stage this really belongs in the other thread about his birth!
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: zumaro on Tuesday 21 March 17 05:12 GMT (UK)
Actually Goole is an inland port city, so at least this part does fit together - ships could be involved...
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: spades on Tuesday 21 March 17 07:42 GMT (UK)
Hi Zumaro,

I haven't been following your topics recently, but did you find a Mark Thomas MOODY born in or near Goole?

I would have thought that since he was the informant at his own wedding, 'At sea' would be a more reliable statement than a place of birth (presumably) provided for his death certificate by his widow who might only have recalled conversations about Goole.

Unless you think Mark Thomas MOODY was being deliberately evasive...

Spades

Edit: name corrected. Spades
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: zumaro on Tuesday 21 March 17 08:28 GMT (UK)
I am reading through the previous thread, and intriguingly there are a William and Sarah Moody from Goole, William being a joiner by trade. Sarah seems to have died in 1858. But they don't have a son Thomas (as far as anyone can see). There are some Thomas Moody's born in Goole but too early or too late, and not with the right parents.

Where on dry land are births at sea registered!? Why would he be born at sea, if the family wasn't travelling, unless Sarah just happened to be into whaling or observing transits of Venus or something as well... I am not sure this man is telling the truth
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: spades on Tuesday 21 March 17 08:58 GMT (UK)
John MOODY, ship's carpenter.

William MOODY, joiner.

Pretty much the same job, except in the latter the ground keeps moving. ;)

As far as I know births at sea would be registered at port of entry/arrival, if at all. Sometimes they were only noted in newspaper reports of a passenger ship's arrival, along with deaths, but often not even then.

Spades

Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: spades on Tuesday 21 March 17 09:15 GMT (UK)
I've just had a read through your other topic and was struck by this information in Reply#21:

...baptism record:

25 Dec 1857, Goole Snaith Chapels
Moody, Son, B 30 Nov 1857
Father : William, a Joiner
Mother: Sarah Markhamsamuel
Residence: Goole

Mothers surname clearly looks odd, so looked a little further and found this marriage:

21 May 1856 Winterton, Lincolnshire
William Moody of Full Age, Bachelor, Joiner of Goole, York.  Father: John Moody, Farmer
Sarah Markham of Full Age, Spinster of Winterton.  Father Samuel Markham, Labourer
Wit: Samuel Markham, William Dent

I cant immediately see a baptism for Thomas Markham in 1855, but Freereg has plenty of Markham baptisms around that time, including an Edwin.

Did Thomas recall his grandfather's name instead of his father's name at his second marriage?

If his father was a ship's carpenter it would lend a sliver of credence to Thomas MOODY being born 'At sea'.

On the face of it William and Sarah seem likely prospects, and that baptism record the correct one.

Spades
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: TwiggyTree on Tuesday 21 March 17 16:27 GMT (UK)
We have a lass born at sea as well.  Not officially registered on land anywhere.  However the ships manifest made note of it.  Just thought you might like to file that away.
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: zumaro on Wednesday 22 March 17 09:09 GMT (UK)
There still seem a lot of leaps of faith here. Thomas forgot his father's name (or maybe William was William John Moody), and then the birth at sea wasn't registered (which would explain the lack of any credible candidates so far for Thomas's birth record), when I am wondering why he would be born at sea anyway. Do I need to look for a family migration somewhere, but then there is a brother Samuel who is born after him in 1857 in Goole anyway? Some parts of the story fit, but others don't. And for a man born in a ship, his actual shipping record to NZ seems to be missing too, and it seems easy enough to find most of those records around that time (he is the only one in my family I haven't found relatively quickly). 

I remain confused, although also feeling that this fit with William Moody and Sarah Markham looks closer to credible than anything so far.
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: spades on Thursday 20 April 17 04:35 BST (UK)
Hi Zumaro,

I finally found time to visit Archives NZ and look through the Intention to Marry Register for 1876.

I couldn't find the notice registered at Napier, so I might try the 1875 Register just in case.

Where did the parties live prior to marriage and afterwards? I might have to look there as well.

Spades
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: zumaro on Thursday 20 April 17 04:59 BST (UK)
Hi Spades
Very much appreciated thanks.

My bet is that it will be Napier late 1875, as the marriage was 1 Jan 1876, and Mary Ann Tomlyn landed in Napier on 20 September 1875. She doesn't seem to have time to have moved around before marrying Thomas Moody. I've never really considered this before - that is a very small time lapse, and the wedding isn't shotgun, as the first child is 2 years later. Maybe just desire to have support and companionship, being a young single woman in a foreign land.

Where Thomas Moody landed in New Zealand is, as usual with any fact about this man, anyone's guess... So far we have a whole set of 'alternative facts' to describe his life I think.
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: spades on Friday 19 May 17 02:43 BST (UK)
Hi Zumaro,

I have finally got my hands on the Intention to Marry Notice.

Can you please send me a PM with your email address.

Spades
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: Fresh Fields on Friday 19 May 17 05:14 BST (UK)

Edit.......... I've never really considered this before - that is a very small time lapse, and the wedding isn't shotgun, as the first child is 2 years later. ............

Don't rule out a miscarriage or stillbirth. Why register a still birth when the death registration immediately following the birth registration bears a cost? Plus funeral expenses.

Was not until the 1920' before a requirement to register a still birth after five months term came into force in some countries. I know of a NZ one where if the attending Doctor had done his sums right the still birth should have been registered, and been buried or cremated instead the miscarriage was just treated as medical waste. Huge cost saving on the young couple, but getting closure proved to be a long drawn out issue over many years.

- Alan.
Title: Re: Thomas Mark Moody
Post by: spades on Friday 19 May 17 19:07 BST (UK)
Images sent.

Spades