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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: Liviani on Wednesday 15 March 17 15:08 GMT (UK)

Title: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Liviani on Wednesday 15 March 17 15:08 GMT (UK)
Needing some information on my G grandfather.

My grandfather Charles McKenzie was born on 18th June 1903 at Inchock, Inverkeilor. Illegitimate. His parents noted on the certificate are Charles McKenzie (Ploughman) and Mary Jane Evans Stewart (Domestic servant). Charles Snr was noted as living at West Mains of Turin, Rescobie Parish on this birth cert. Mary I presume would be living at Inchock as her family lives there.

The birth certificate was signed by both the mother and father.

Charles Jr born 1903 was married in 1927 at Mains of Kelly, Arbirlot. His father is noted as deceased.

I have no further information on Charles Snr, it appears Charles Jr was brought up by his mother's family as he is in with the Stewarts at Inchock, Inverkeilor and noted as a grandson in the 1911 census. I do not believe Mary Stewart and Charles Snr ever married.

Struggling to find any information at all on Charles Snr.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 15 March 17 15:47 GMT (UK)
Hi and welcome

This is the only Charles McKenzie living in Rescobie in 1901 - Wardmill Bothy


Robert McKenzie   17 b Fearie Forfar farm servant ploughman
Charles McKenzie 16  farm servant ploughman b Forfar
Alexander Ramsay 17 b Aberlemno farm servant ploughman
Rescobie ED 5 Page 6 Line 6
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Wednesday 15 March 17 15:55 GMT (UK)
Thank you for this. I believe that will be him.

I've tried to search for deaths of Charles McKenzie's in Angus between the birth of his son in 1903 and 1927 when he is listed as deceased on his son's marriage certificate. None of the ages match at all in this list of deaths.

On searching SP on births of Charles McKenzie's in either 1882 or 1883 there is only one born in Forfar and this is a Charles George McKenzie. This birth is also listed in the catholic registers.

I've not come across the middle name on any documents before, was it usual to leave it out back then?

I also have a feeling that he was in fact not deceased at the time of his son's marriage in 1927. Either that or he emigrated and there is no record of his death in Scotland.

I'm wondering if his son was told incorrect information or if he did lie to the registrar about his father's 'death'. This is getting quite intriguing now.

As far as I was aware all of my family are Church of Scotland and have found no ancestors whom were Catholic other than this Charles George McKenzie. Perhaps this is the reason Charles Snr and Mary Stewart never married?

I will see what else I can find out. I'm going to go with Charles George being my G Grandfather. Nothing else fits.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 15 March 17 16:02 GMT (UK)
I agree with your findings as I can only find Charles G  McKenzie in 1891 - son of Kenneth & Betsy  EDIT - SEE REPLY BELOW

I was just checking WW1 deaths on the CWGC site but again - nothing fits with the entries with ages shown

Like you - I wondered if Charles jnr was just told his father was dead hence the marriage cert entry

I did wonder whether the Robert in 1901 was his brother but although the 1891 shows a brother Robert - there is a much bigger age gap
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 15 March 17 16:07 GMT (UK)
He is not the 1891 entry - that Charles is still with mum Betsy in 1901  ???
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 15 March 17 16:21 GMT (UK)
I have found the 1891 entry for the Robert McKenzie shown with Charles in 1901.  He did have a brother Charles - agric labourer - but he was born 1871 so would have been 32 when Charles jnr was born

BUT

The entry also shows a Charles Small who I suspect may have been born before the marriage given the age gap between Daniel and Ellen

Daniel MacKenzie  56 b Munlochy, Ross
Ellen   32 b Benholm, Kincardine
Charles  20 b Forfar
Charles Small    8 b Forfar shown as son  SP shows birth reg 1882
Robert MacKenzie 7 b Fearn
Christina     5 b Tannadice
James  3 b Tannadice
Tannadice ED 6 Page 1 Line 15
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Wednesday 15 March 17 16:30 GMT (UK)
Ahh, this makes sense, just when you think you're getting somewhere something else pops up.

I need to search Charles Small. No wonder I had difficulties before with this.

Thank you, I have much to go on. I wonder where the name 'Small' comes from. Perhaps Ellen's maiden name?

Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Wednesday 15 March 17 16:35 GMT (UK)
Just looked at Charles Small's birth certificate.

He was illegitimate born May 18th 1882 to a Helen Ewan - Domestic Servant and Charles Small a Ploughman.

 ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

Perhaps he was adopted? 
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Wednesday 15 March 17 16:37 GMT (UK)
Just realised Helen could be the same name as Ellen? Could still be his mother and she met and married Daniel later?
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 15 March 17 16:37 GMT (UK)
SP shows a marriage between Helen Ewan & Daniel McKenzie in 1882
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Wednesday 15 March 17 16:48 GMT (UK)
In the 1901 census with the Robert and Charles it is showing that Robert is older than Charles but on the 1891 census Charles is older than Robert.

Only explanation I can think is that the census taker got the ages mixed up or the boys were messing around?  ???
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 15 March 17 16:56 GMT (UK)
It makes sense that Robert is older than Charles in 1891 as Robert was born after Daniel & Elllen (Helen) married.  Robert was probably born 1883 given that Charles was born 1882 and the marriage was 1882.

They appear to have reversed their ages in 1901 unless the enumerator got muddled?

Can you find either of them in 1911
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Wednesday 15 March 17 17:32 GMT (UK)
There is a 28 year old Charles McKenzie in the 1911 Census in Airlie Parish. There is also a Charles McKenzie in Forfar but I have the feeling that this will be other one that is no relation.

As for Robert there is only a 29 year old Robert McKenzie in the 1911 census in Angus but he is in Monifieth parish.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Wednesday 15 March 17 17:38 GMT (UK)
On the 1911 record for Charles McKenzie in Airlie. It says the following;

Charles McKenzie Head 28 Ploughman born Forfar
Thomas Allardice  23 Ploughman born Kirriemuir
William George 26 Ploughman born Kirriemuir
James McAndrew 35 Shepherd Kirriemuir
William Ramsay 22 Ploughman Inverarity

Can't quite make out the name of the residence though, it looks something like 'Polomyre', but doesn't seem right and nothing on google regarding this in Airlie.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 15 March 17 17:40 GMT (UK)
I've not come across the middle name on any documents before, was it usual to leave it out back then?
Yes. It was even commoner for people whose birth registration does not have a middle name to 'acquire' a middle name later in life.

Quote
Just realised Helen could be the same name as Ellen?
Yes, very common.

Quote
Could still be his mother and she met and married Daniel later?
Yes.

Quote
I'm wondering if his son was told incorrect information or if he did lie to the registrar about his father's 'death'.
Definitely possible.

Quote
As far as I was aware all of my family are Church of Scotland and have found no ancestors whom were Catholic other than this Charles George McKenzie. Perhaps this is the reason Charles Snr and Mary Stewart never married?
You need to see if you can eliminate Charles George as a possible father.
Charles George McKenzie was born in Forfar in 1883
Charles George McKenzie, aged 71, died in Forfar in 1955. Is he the same Charles George?
Did he marry? If so, whom and when? What was his occupation? Can you find him in the same census as Charles Small who may also be Charles McKenzie?

Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Wednesday 15 March 17 17:56 GMT (UK)
Forfarian

Thank you for the responses.

I believe Charles George McKenzie is unrelated as he was living in Forfar with his mother Betsy in the 1901 census. There is a Charles McKenzie in the 1901 census in Wardmill Bothy, Rescobie which matches to the 'West Mains of Turin' Rescobie location mentioned on my grandfather Charles Jr's birth certificate.

Rescobie Charles in 1901 was a Farm Servant - Ploughman which matches the occupation on Charles jr's birth cert.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 15 March 17 18:10 GMT (UK)
Forfarian

Thank you for the responses.

I believe Charles George McKenzie is unrelated as he was living in Forfar with his mother Betsy in the 1901 census. There is a Charles McKenzie in the 1901 census in Wardmill Bothy, Rescobie which matches to the 'West Mains of Turin' Rescobie location mentioned on my grandfather Charles Jr's birth certificate.

Rescobie Charles in 1901 was a Farm Servant - Ploughman which matches the occupation on Charles jr's birth cert.
Good. That looks better.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Wednesday 15 March 17 18:23 GMT (UK)
I MAY have something to go on.

I was looking at transcripts of war memorials in Angus and looked at the list posted online regarding the names on Forfar's. There is a Charles McKenzie listed there.

MCKENZIE,   CHARLES.   Private.   Canadians.   France.   Wounded. Died January, 1917.

We know this isn't the Charles George McKenzie since he died in the 1950s. So this could potentially be my great grandfather and why he was down as deceased on the 1927 marriage cert of his son.

I will investigate further.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Wednesday 15 March 17 18:38 GMT (UK)
I believe I have found him on the CWGC site.

Rank:Private
Service No:859557
Date of Death:08/01/1917
Age:34
Regiment/Service:Canadian Infantry 179th
Bn. Grave Reference:
T. 496. Cemetery:SHORNCLIFFE MILITARY CEMETERY
Additional Information:Son of Mrs. Helen Mackenzie, of Smith's Property, Whitehills, Forfar, Scotland.


I think I have found my answers now. Thank you both for your help.

Sad to think that he probably never married, given that no wife was mentioned in the additional information and he was still unmarried in the 1911 census.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 15 March 17 19:33 GMT (UK)
There are Canadian soldiers' records online - try Library Canada to look for them. Could he have been in the Canadian census in 1911?
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Wednesday 15 March 17 19:36 GMT (UK)
No he was still in Angus in 1911 in Airlie Parish with a birthplace of Forfar, Forfarshire.

I tried looking through some passenger lists but couldn't find much out. Will be something else to investigate.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 15 March 17 20:34 GMT (UK)
So it looks as though he was born as Charles Small but took his stepfathers surname from when his mother married.

Is there anything  on the outgoing passenger lists for him between 1911 - 1917 as it seems odd he was in the Canadian Infantry if he never left Scotland
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Wednesday 15 March 17 23:10 GMT (UK)
Struggled a bit with trawling through the passenger lists as there are so many 'C McKenzies', 'Charles McKenzies' and 'Chas. McKenzies', also the alternate spelling of 'Mac'.

I think I'll leave the passenger lists for another day when I can have a proper look.

As for my great-grandfather's birth certificate, I noticed there was an amendment available to view free of charge. It said the following;

'With reference to entry No 221 in the register book of births for the year 1882, insert the following note on the authority of a certificate in the form of Schedule (Tr??), to the following effect:

In an action relating to the paternity of a male child born May 18th 1882 at the instance of Helen Ewan or McKenzie, residing in Dundee Road, Forfar, wife of Donald (Thought he was Daniel?) McKenzie, Farm Servant, also residing here, with consent and concurrence (I think?) of the said Donald McKenzie, her husband, and him for his interest, pursues (?) against Charles Small, Labourer, residing in Glamis Road, Forfar. Defender, the Sheriff Substitute of Forfarshire (Forfar District) upon the 26th day of April 1883, found that the said child was the illegitimate child of the said Helen Ewan or McKenzie and Charles Small"

This is rather interesting I think. Does this mean that Donald or Daniel McKenzie took legal action against his wife and Charles Small to determine paternity? I'd not heard of this before. I'd heard of mothers and fathers being brought before the Kirk Session but I don't believe this would have happened in 1883? Not sure when Kirk Session's stopped calling in illegitimate births.

Now, what does this amendment mean? The child is already registered as Charles Small with his father being noted as Charles Small and also signed by him. I'm not sure why an amendment was required?

Little bit confused now.

Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 16 March 17 01:10 GMT (UK)
Sorry - totally unfamiliar with Scottish law etc 

As you say - paternity had already been admitted by Charles Small's name/signature on the birth cert and the fact it was registered as Small and not Ewan.  I wonder if this was for maintenance or inheritance purposes?

It may be that as Helen had married by then - she had to have her husbands permission and consent to take such action but I'm guessing really.   I don't think Daniel brought the action against his wife and Small

Daniel & Helen are still together in 1901
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 16 March 17 08:36 GMT (UK)

'With reference to entry No 221 in the register book of births for the year 1882, insert the following note on the authority of a certificate in the form of Schedule (Tr??), to the following effect:
In an action relating to the paternity of a male child born May 18th 1882 at the instance of Helen Ewan or McKenzie, residing in Dundee Road, Forfar, wife of Donald (Thought he was Daniel?)
Donald and Daniel are used interchangeably -if you are looking for a Donald and can't find him, it's always worth trying Daniel, and vice versa.

Quote
[/i]McKenzie, Farm Servant, also residing here, with consent and concurrence (I think?) of the said Donald McKenzie, her husband, and him for his interest, pursues (?) against Charles Small, Labourer, residing in Glamis Road, Forfar. Defender, the Sheriff Substitute of Forfarshire (Forfar District) upon the 26th day of April 1883, found that the said child was the illegitimate child of the said Helen Ewan or McKenzie and Charles Small"

Does this mean that Donald or Daniel McKenzie took legal action against his wife and Charles Small to determine paternity?
No, but obviously he would have an interest in the case because if it failed he would have to support his stepson. As a married woman Helen would not have been able to go to court without her husband's agreement, so it looks as if they went to court jointly   

Quote
I'd not heard of this before.
It's quite common. I have one dating from 1796, which is well before the start of civil registration, so obviously there is no Register of Corrected Entries, but I found all the court papers in the National Archives of Scotland.   

Quote
I'd heard of mothers and fathers being brought before the Kirk Session but I don't believe this would have happened in 1883? Not sure when Kirk Sessions stopped calling in illegitimate births.
Depends where it was. In some parishes they went on longer than in others. Mostly they had given up in towns by the late 1800s, but some rural parishes still pursued fornicators later than that.

Quote
Now, what does this amendment mean? The child is already registered as Charles Small with his father being noted as Charles Small and also signed by him. I'm not sure why an amendment was required?
Probably because although he signed the birth certificate he was failing to pay far the upkeep of the child.

Incidentally, although it doesn't say so specifically, this is an extract from the Register of Corrected Entries (RCE). Once a certificate had been completed, the only way to alter the information was by getting some sort of official approval. Quite a lot of the entries in the RCEs relate to changes of babies' given names, and quite a lot are the result of actions for paternity. Among other reasons for an entry in an RCE are in death certificates when the cause of death had not been determined before the death was registered. There is a set of RCEs for each registration district, and when anything is recorded in the RCE an oval stamp is placed in the left-hand column of the certificate with the RCE reference number (which you don't now need to quote in these days of computerised access).
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Thursday 16 March 17 15:52 GMT (UK)
Very interesting, thank you for that information.

So it sounds like it's more of a child support issue or inheritance thing as was said. This makes sense. Just out of curiosity, was there any legal system in place back then whereby the father who is not residing with their child had to make payments to the family where the child resides?

Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 16 March 17 16:23 GMT (UK)
No different back then than now.  If ordered by the court, the father of the child paid maintenance irrespective of whether the mother had married since the birth.

The principal being - why should Daniel McKenzie financially support another mans child when that man was single and in employment

Another consideration here was perhaps the age difference between Daniel & Helen.  If Daniel had died while Charles was still a child - Helen would at least have had some money coming in to support him
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Thursday 16 March 17 16:25 GMT (UK)
I thought this might be the case.

Very true regarding Daniel's age also.

All of this has been an eye opener. I don't feel as much of a "McKenzie" anymore though.  :(
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: scotmum on Thursday 16 March 17 17:24 GMT (UK)
Birth date out by a year and a bit on entry at:

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/368987
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: scotmum on Thursday 16 March 17 17:33 GMT (UK)
Here is his attestation paperwork:

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/368987
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 16 March 17 17:33 GMT (UK)
There is a death certificate in Elham, Kent in the March quarter of 1917 for Charles McKenzie, aged 33. If he was born on 18 May 1882 he would have been 34 on 8 January 1917.

If he had been born on 18 (or indeed 24) May 1883 he would have been 33 on 8 January 1917.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Thursday 16 March 17 17:39 GMT (UK)
I believe army Charles is the correct one, given the name of his mother mentioned and location of her being Forfar. The age and date of birth thing is a little confusing, but I can only think it's an error in transcription, communication or the like somewhere along the line.

The amended record for Charles' birth states that he was born in 1882 with 1883 being crossed out.

Scotmum, I believe both links you posted are the same, the attestation paperwork still takes me to his remembrance record there. Thank you for this information and findings though. Much appreciated.

Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 16 March 17 17:48 GMT (UK)
The amended record for Charles' birth states that he was born in 1882 with 1883 being crossed out.
Do you mean the RCE page?
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Thursday 16 March 17 17:49 GMT (UK)
Sorry, yes I do Forfarian.

I will upload the picture.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Thursday 16 March 17 17:52 GMT (UK)
Here is the Register of Corrected Entries for Charles Small (later McKenzie) born 1882.

(http://i65.tinypic.com/bg1c9w.png)
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: scotmum on Thursday 16 March 17 17:59 GMT (UK)
My second link should have been:

http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=157077

(note to self, don't post links when thinking about starting to make dinner)

showing an address in Manitoba at time of signing up. The 1883 birth date is also clearly written.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Thursday 16 March 17 18:07 GMT (UK)
My second link should have been:

http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=157077

(note to self, don't post links when thinking about starting to make dinner)

showing an address in Manitoba at time of signing up. The 1883 birth date is also clearly written.

Thank you for this, this is very helpful.

So, Charles signed up in 1916 so we know he must've emigrated between 1911 (when he appeared on the census in Scotland) and 1916. I have something to go on when searching passenger lists now.

The only thing I can think of regarding the date of birth issue is; perhaps he was 'lied' to regarding who his father was? He could potentially have been told an incorrect date of birth by Helen (Ellen) and Daniel to protect from the shame of an illegitimate birth? This is the only way I see why a discrepancy has occurred. The age is obviously wrong on the remembrance record.

I wonder when Helen/Ellen and Daniel/Donald married in 1883. It could be before Charles first birthday in May? Interesting thoughts.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 16 March 17 18:36 GMT (UK)
As the RCE says that the Sheriff found for Daniel and Helen on 26th April 1883, the birth date of 18 May 1883 (which had yet to happen) was plainly wrong.

As for the date in the Canadian document, I have often notice in the Canadian census that people's ages are understated by a year. I speculate that they were asked, "What day is your birthday?", and then. "How old are you?", and that the enumerator then (mis)calculated the year of birth by subtracting the age from the census year. So anyone whose birthday in census year had not yet occurred is listed as being born a year later than the correct date.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Thursday 16 March 17 18:39 GMT (UK)
As the RCE says that the Sheriff found for Daniel and Helen on 26th April 1883, the birth date of 18 May 1883 (which had yet to happen) was plainly wrong.

As for the date in the Canadian document, I have often notice in the Canadian census that people's ages are understated by a year. I speculate that they were asked, "What day is your birthday?", and then. "How old are you?", and that the enumerator then (mis)calculated the year of birth by subtracting the age from the census year. So anyone whose birthday in census year had not yet occurred is listed as being born a year later than the correct date.

Ah, yes this makes perfect sense now.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: scotmum on Thursday 16 March 17 18:46 GMT (UK)
There was a Scottish, 1883 born C McKenzie, farmer, single, who headed over to Canada in 1911 on the Empress of Britain.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: scotmum on Thursday 16 March 17 18:57 GMT (UK)
Throwing this in as something worth looking into further. A David Cowie from Forfar was also killed in WW1, whilst serving in the Canadian Infantry. Now, it may just be coincidence, but he had a sister, Agnes McKenzie who lived in Pipestone, Manitoba:

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/2954486
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Thursday 16 March 17 19:10 GMT (UK)
Throwing this in as something worth looking into further. A David Cowie from Forfar was also killed in WW1, whilst serving in the Canadian Infantry. Now, it may just be coincidence, but he had a sister, Agnes McKenzie who lived in Pipestone, Manitoba:

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/2954486

I believe this will be her?

(http://i68.tinypic.com/28vsxdy.png)

Interestingly she is married to a Robert McKenzie. This could possible by Charles brother if they emigrated together. More research needed by me I think.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 16 March 17 19:31 GMT (UK)
There was a Scottish, 1883 born C McKenzie, farmer, single, who headed over to Canada in 1911 on the Empress of Britain.
What date? Was he there in time for the 1911 census of Canada?

There are two lodgers, Charles MacKenzie, aged 26 and Robert Mackenzie, aged 21, in Winnipeg. They were both born in Scotland and immigrated in 1907. The head of household was John Gammie, 30, born Scotland and his wife was Mary Gammie, 23, born Scotland. They too immigrated in 1907, I think, though it's not easy to be sure.

A Robert Mackenzie married an Agnes Stewart Cowie in Virden, Manitoba on 28 August 1907. Obviously not one of the lodgers in the 1911, of course.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Thursday 16 March 17 19:33 GMT (UK)
I'm not particularly sure how to search Canadian records. Does anyone recommend a good site for this? I've only really used SP and Google before.  ???
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 16 March 17 19:47 GMT (UK)
For the 1911 census see a site called Automated Genealogy.

For Manitoba search for 'Manitoba Vital Records'.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Friday 17 March 17 01:18 GMT (UK)
Edited: I looked at the wrong passenger list initially. Have the correct information now here.

I have looked at the passenger list and agree this is probably my Great Grandfather. I will include the image below.

The departure date is 5th May 1911. This matches with the 1911 census and how it still shows Charles as in Scotland because the census was taken a month prior to this in April 1911.

None of the other C/Charles/Chas McKenzie/Mackenzie's match with professions, age or date of departure.

Surprised that the port of departure is Liverpool rather than Glasgow however. But we can see from the picture that Charles and 2 others on this list are Scottish.

I have also noticed that if you look in the far left column you can see ticket numbers and it appears that along with Charles, there is a W. McLeod and a Lizzie McLeod travelling on the same ticket. W. Mc is a Farmer and Lizzie is a domestic, they are also Scottish. In the 1911 census Charles was living with other men but none of the surnames match McLeod. Interesting as this must've been planned. I will see what else I can find out about this couple. They are either a married couple or siblings?

I suspect that with Lizzy's occupation being noted as 'domestic' rather than 'wife' as others are on this list that Lizzy would be W. McLeod's sibling?

(http://i67.tinypic.com/8yi3yd.jpg)
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: scotmum on Friday 17 March 17 09:54 GMT (UK)
If you have time to trawl through the pages, as they aren't searchable by name, the arrival manifest for the ship is available at:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jq2/

which should provide more details and may help you confirm or rule out this chap.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 17 March 17 12:25 GMT (UK)
As you say - paternity had already been admitted by Charles Small's name/signature on the birth cert and the fact it was registered as Small and not Ewan.  I wonder if this was for maintenance or inheritance purposes?

Just thought I'd add for the benefit of others that any illegitimate child born Scotland (where the father has signed)  will appear on the Index under both parents surnames.

Annie
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: CaroleW on Friday 17 March 17 20:17 GMT (UK)
Thanks Annie - I didn't know that,  so very useful info.  Just checked SP and he was indeed also registered as Charles Ewan in 1882
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Friday 17 March 17 20:33 GMT (UK)
As you say - paternity had already been admitted by Charles Small's name/signature on the birth cert and the fact it was registered as Small and not Ewan.  I wonder if this was for maintenance or inheritance purposes?

Just thought I'd add for the benefit of others that any illegitimate child born Scotland (where the father has signed)  will appear on the Index under both parents surnames.

Annie

Very useful indeed. I didn't know this either, will come in handy in the future I'm sure. Thank you.
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Friday 17 March 17 20:37 GMT (UK)
If you have time to trawl through the pages, as they aren't searchable by name, the arrival manifest for the ship is available at:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jq2/

which should provide more details and may help you confirm or rule out this chap.

I see them mentioned on page 20 with the other two people he appeared to be travelling with. They appear to be going to the same initial destination as Charles. It appears that Pipestone, Manitoba is on the way to Yorkton.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/2iuepv7.jpg)

However, I notice that the profession has changed for Charles. I can't quite make out what it says but it begins with a B? It said he was a farmer on the departure lists? The profession for the person below him has changed from Farmer to Carpenter also? Perhaps an accent issue? If he had relayed it as 'fermer' I can see why a Canadian may not have grasped it correctly?

Also, it states that he has visited Canada before and that he is a 'Returning Canadian' perhaps? According to the stamp there?

All of the ages are the same.
Title: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Liviani on Tuesday 21 March 17 15:40 GMT (UK)
Hi everyone.

This is going to be a rather long post. I feel all the details are relevant so please bear with me.

After my recent post regarding my great-grandfather Charles McKenzie born Small in 1882 I started researching his father named on his birth cert details below.

Charles Small
Ploughman
Resident at: Sandyford, Parish of Kirriemuir.


In the 1881 census there is the following;

Dwelling: Little Kilmundy Bothy
Adam
BALLENTINE
Servant
U
30
M
Shepherd
Lintrathen, Forfar, Scotland
Dwelling: Little Kilmundy Bothy

John
TOSH
Servant
U
18
M
Agr Labourer
Lethnot, Forfar, Scotland
Dwelling: Little Kilmundy Bothy

Charles
SMALL
Servant (Head)
U
23
M
Agr Labourer
Rescobie, Forfar, Scotland


This is the only Charles Small in the 1881 census that matches with profession, age and location. So I believe this Charles Small above to be the correct one.

Given his age is stated as 23 in 1881 this means he must've been born in either 1857 or 1858. This is where the problems begin for me.

On searching all of Charles Smalls born in Scotland on SP in 1857 or 1858 I get nothing back at all.

This leads me to a few lines of thought - either he was born with a different name OR the age stated in the 1881 census is incorrect.

I look at who he's living with in 1881. There is a John Tosh close in age but there are no Charles Toshs born in 1857 or 1858. I get the same results with a Charles Ballentine (with fuzzy matching on).

On the RCE of my great-grandfather it states that Charles Small his father was living at Glamis Road, Forfar at the time it was written in 1883.

In 1883 a Charles Small marries a Harriet Patullo in Forfar. In 1881 Hariet was 18 years old and living in Forfar with her family.

In the 1871 census there is a 14 year old Charles Small living in Coupar Angus. He is living with his father John Small aged 57 Gardiner and his mother Margaret Small (can't make our her age). There are no other children living here, it is just the three of them. In this census it states that Charles was born in Coupar Angus not Rescobie as it states on the 1881 census. But then again I don't know if this is the same Charles ???

There is an 11 year old Charles Small living in Forfar with the following people in 1871.

(http://i64.tinypic.com/2f069n4.png)

The place of birth is correct, but the age doesn't match up with the 1881 census.

On searching births again the only two Charles Smalls born in Scotland in 1859 or 1860 were born in the parishes of Cockpen and Collessie. So again nothing is matching up with the info I'm given.

I'd really appreciate any help on the matter. SP credits are in limited supply so I want to be sure I'm spending them resourcefully. Thank you all.
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: ev on Tuesday 21 March 17 16:03 GMT (UK)
There is this one -

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYYX-XVF

Marriage ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTVG-5NT




ev
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: AdrianB38 on Tuesday 21 March 17 16:26 GMT (UK)
"Given his age is stated as 23 in 1881 this means he must've been born in either 1857 or 1858. This is where the problems begin for me"

I've not looked at alternatives for you, but my immediate reaction is that your first sentence there is not helping you. 1857/58 is only a starting point - at the very least you need to be looking 5y either way - I normally use +/- 10y though for someone who's only 23, an error of 10y is rather unlikely.

The other aspect is - who filled the form in? I find that servants' details on censuses are prime candidates for errors - sometimes the person compiling it (the employer?) seems not to ask his servants but writes down what he thinks is the story, so age and place of birth are what he thinks his servant once said in conversation ages ago.

As I say, I'm in no position to offer alternatives but, especially if you can't find someone with those exact details, you need to widen your search criteria.
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Liviani on Tuesday 21 March 17 16:27 GMT (UK)
There is this one -

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYYX-XVF

Marriage ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTVG-5NTev

Thank you for this.

This is quite interesting. There is a Charles Henderson (given it stated the father was Leonard Small or Henderson) born in 1859 in Rescobie. I looked at the birth cert and it states the following;

Henderson, Charles born 20/06/1859.
Father - Leonard Small, Ploughman
Mother - Ann Small m.s MacKay

Signature of informant - Leonard Small - not present?


There is also an RCE in connection with this entry. I don't actually know what it's trying to say though. I will include the image of the RCE, any help appreciated here.

(http://i67.tinypic.com/1532044.png)

There is also the following info in the 1851 census. This is interesting as you will notice the surname Johnstone mentioned again. In the 1871 census 11 year old Charles Small was living with Ann Small aged 41 and a Janet Johnstone (I think it's Janet) aged 49. With the information that Leonard and Ann married in 1853, the reason why she is named Small in 1851 is a bit confusing. Not sure where to go from here. This family seems so messy!

(http://i65.tinypic.com/atxjyq.png)

       








Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Liviani on Tuesday 21 March 17 16:28 GMT (UK)
"Given his age is stated as 23 in 1881 this means he must've been born in either 1857 or 1858. This is where the problems begin for me"

I've not looked at alternatives for you, but my immediate reaction is that your first sentence there is not helping you. 1857/58 is only a starting point - at the very least you need to be looking 5y either way - I normally use +/- 10y though for someone who's only 23, an error of 10y is rather unlikely.

The other aspect is - who filled the form in? I find that servants' details on censuses are prime candidates for errors - sometimes the person compiling it (the employer?) seems not to ask his servants but writes down what he thinks is the story, so age and place of birth are what he thinks his servant once said in conversation ages ago.

As I say, I'm in no position to offer alternatives but, especially if you can't find someone with those exact details, you need to widen your search criteria.

Yeah I agree and those are fair points. I'm still rather new to searching records and appear to not widen my years enough.

It appears he was actually born as 'Charles Henderson' for some reason, even although his parents were married.  Details above.

Thank you for the tips though, this is something to keep in mind when researching. :)
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Liviani on Tuesday 21 March 17 16:44 GMT (UK)
A Charles Henderson Small died April 1932 aged 72. Married to Harriet Patullo. Died a Leys of Cossans, Glamis. Parents Leonard Small - Farm servant (deceased) and Anne Small m.s. MacKay (deceased).
Informant David Small - Son.

I believe Leonard Small to be my 3x great-grandfather. This info was found when searching valuation rolls in 1885.

SMALL
LEONARD
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE NO 25 GLAMIS ROAD

Charles also lived in Glamis Road, Forfar around this time according to the RCE in 1883 of my great-grandfather's birth.
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 21 March 17 16:52 GMT (UK)
Edit: I see that while I was typing this that you have come to the same conclusion as I have. But I'll let it stand anyway.

Dwelling: Little Kilmundy Bothy
Adam BALLENTINE
John TOSH
Charles SMALL
This is the only Charles Small in the 1881 census that matches with profession, age and location. So I believe this Charles Small above to be the correct one.
A reasonable assumption.

Quote
On searching all of Charles Smalls born in Scotland on SP in 1857 or 1858 I get nothing back at all.
This leads me to a few lines of thought - either he was born with a different name OR the age stated in the 1881 census is incorrect.
Also reasonable.

Quote
I look at who he's living with in 1881.
I doubt very much that this is likely to be useful. These three young men are living in a bothy. A bothy was provided by a farmer to accommodate his unmarried male workers, and sometimes married ones if their job was too far from their home to go home each night. So generally there is no reason to think that the occupants of a bothy are related to one another.

Quote
In 1883 a Charles Small marries a Harriet Patullo in Forfar. In 1881 Hariet was 18 years old and living in Forfar with her family.
I think your next step is to look at the marriage certificate of Charles and Harriet. This will tell you the names of their parents. Once you have this information you will be better placed to find him. 

In 1891 Charles Small, 30 and Harriet Small, 28 were living in Inverarity with four children. In 1901 Charles, 40 and Harriet, 39 are in Lintrathen with seven children. They are still in Lintrathen in 1911 with eight children, Charles aged 49 and Harriet 47. You might also like to look at one or more of these later censuses to see where Charles said he was born.

Quote
In the 1871 census there is a 14 year old Charles Small living in Coupar Angus. He is living with his father John Small aged 57 Gardiner and his mother Margaret Small (can't make our her age). There are no other children living here, it is just the three of them. In this census it states that Charles was born in Coupar Angus not Rescobie as it states on the 1881 census. But then again I don't know if this is the same Charles ???
Probably not. Charles Small, son of John Small and Margaret Grant, was born in Coupar Angus on 29 April 1856.

Quote
There is an 11 year old Charles Small living in Forfar in 1871.
The place of birth is correct, but the age doesn't match up with the 1881 census.
No, but it does more closely match his age in the later censuses.

He is probably the same Charles Small as the one-year-old in Forfar in 1861.

I note that SP lists the a birth of a Charles Henderson in Rescobie in 1859. Looking at the International Genealogical Index, there is a birth of Charles Small or Henderson in 1859, father Leonard Small or Henderson, mother Ann Mackay.

So if Charles' marriage certificate says his mother was Ann Mackay, it would be reasonable to suppose that this is your Charles Small. So go on, get that marriage certificate.
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 21 March 17 16:55 GMT (UK)
In the 1871 census 11 year old Charles Small was living with Ann Small aged 41 and a Janet Johnstone (I think it's Janet) aged 49.
No. Janet Johnstone is described as 'head' and against Ann Small it says 'ditto'. In other words, Ann Small was head of a separate household, not part of Janet Johnstone's household.
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Liviani on Tuesday 21 March 17 16:59 GMT (UK)
Edit: I see that while I was typing this that you have come to the same conclusion as I have. But I'll let it stand anyway.

Dwelling: Little Kilmundy Bothy
Adam BALLENTINE
John TOSH
Charles SMALL
This is the only Charles Small in the 1881 census that matches with profession, age and location. So I believe this Charles Small above to be the correct one.
A reasonable assumption.

Quote
On searching all of Charles Smalls born in Scotland on SP in 1857 or 1858 I get nothing back at all.
This leads me to a few lines of thought - either he was born with a different name OR the age stated in the 1881 census is incorrect.
Also reasonable.

Quote
I look at who he's living with in 1881.
I doubt very much that this is likely to be useful. These three young men are living in a bothy. A bothy was provided by a farmer to accommodate his unmarried male workers, and sometimes married ones if their job was too far from their home to go home each night. So generally there is no reason to think that the occupants of a bothy are related to one another.

Quote
In 1883 a Charles Small marries a Harriet Patullo in Forfar. In 1881 Hariet was 18 years old and living in Forfar with her family.
I think your next step is to look at the marriage certificate of Charles and Harriet. This will tell you the names of their parents. Once you have this information you will be better placed to find him. 

In 1891 Charles Small, 30 and Harriet Small, 28 were living in Inverarity with four children. In 1901 Charles, 40 and Harriet, 39 are in Lintrathen with seven children. They are still in Lintrathen in 1911 with eight children, Charles aged 49 and Harriet 47. You might also like to look at one or more of these later censuses to see where Charles said he was born.

Quote
In the 1871 census there is a 14 year old Charles Small living in Coupar Angus. He is living with his father John Small aged 57 Gardiner and his mother Margaret Small (can't make our her age). There are no other children living here, it is just the three of them. In this census it states that Charles was born in Coupar Angus not Rescobie as it states on the 1881 census. But then again I don't know if this is the same Charles ???
Probably not. Charles Small, son of John Small and Margaret Grant, was born in Coupar Angus on 29 April 1856.

Quote
There is an 11 year old Charles Small living in Forfar in 1871.
The place of birth is correct, but the age doesn't match up with the 1881 census.
No, but it does more closely match his age in the later censuses.

He is probably the same Charles Small as the one-year-old in Forfar in 1861.

I note that SP lists the a birth of a Charles Henderson in Rescobie in 1859. Looking at the International Genealogical Index, there is a birth of Charles Small or Henderson in 1859, father Leonard Small or Henderson, mother Ann Mackay.

So if Charles' marriage certificate says his mother was Ann Mackay, it would be reasonable to suppose that this is your Charles Small. So go on, get that marriage certificate.

Done! This is definitely the same one. I will go along the lines of him being related. Thank you for your help.  Much appreciated. It can be quite daunting when things don't all fall in place easily but there are ways and means. :)

(http://i65.tinypic.com/2lm3u4n.png)
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 21 March 17 17:01 GMT (UK)
There is also an RCE in connection with this entry. I don't actually know what it's trying to say though. I will include the image of the RCE, any help appreciated here.
That is unusual.

The law assumes that a child born to a married woman is her husband's, unless she chooses to declare otherwise. Leonard Small and Ann Mackay were married on 5 June 1853 in Glenisla. So the law (and the Registrar) should have assumed that Charles was Leonard's son. Therefore I don't know why it was necessary for Leonard to go to the Sheriff to get an alteration made to the certificate.
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 21 March 17 17:04 GMT (UK)
For the avoidance of duplication see the previous thread on the same family

Threads merged.
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Liviani on Tuesday 21 March 17 17:08 GMT (UK)
There is also an RCE in connection with this entry. I don't actually know what it's trying to say though. I will include the image of the RCE, any help appreciated here.
That is unusual.

The law assumes that a child born to a married woman is her husband's, unless she chooses to declare otherwise. Leonard Small and Ann Mackay were married on 5 June 1853 in Glenisla. So the law (and the Registrar) should have assumed that Charles was Leonard's son. Therefore I don't know why it was necessary for Leonard to go to the Sheriff to get an alteration made to the certificate.

I'm not entirely sure either. It could be something to do with Leonard Small's name since Charles was born as Charles Henderson not Charles Small. Leonard is down as Leonard Henderson OR Small on here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYYX-XVF

This has to be the most confusing part of the research I think. Having said that; he wasn't present on the birth certificate. Something very strange there, it wasn't signed by Anne either.  ???
Title: Re: Charles McKenzie Rescobie Parish - brick wall.
Post by: Liviani on Tuesday 21 March 17 17:11 GMT (UK)
For the avoidance of duplication see another thread on the same family
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=767929

Just to clarify things (sorry if I've done this wrong) the Charles McKenzie or Small here is the son of the Charles Small mentioned in the other thread. Same family but different people, father and son. Sorry for the confusion.
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 21 March 17 17:17 GMT (UK)
This has to be the most confusing part of the research I think. Having said that; he wasn't present on the birth certificate.
As Ann's husband, he didn't have to be present. Nothing specially unusual there.

Quote
Something very strange there, it wasn't signed by Anne either.  ???
She didn't have to be present either. The birth could be registered by anyone who, in the eyes of the Registrar, was suitably qualified to supply the correct information - a grandparent, a neighbour, a midwife, a friend.

Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 21 March 17 17:20 GMT (UK)
I'm not entirely sure either. It could be something to do with Leonard Small's name since Charles was born as Charles Henderson not Charles Small.
Yes, that could be it. If the birth had been registered as Henderson but Leonard wanted to be known as Leonard Small, and his children's birth certificates to reflect that, then he might have needed to make a deposition and get it corroborated by a minister.
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Liviani on Tuesday 21 March 17 17:30 GMT (UK)
I'm not entirely sure either. It could be something to do with Leonard Small's name since Charles was born as Charles Henderson not Charles Small.
Yes, that could be it. If the birth had been registered as Henderson but Leonard wanted to be known as Leonard Small, and his children's birth certificates to reflect that, then he might have needed to make a deposition and get it corroborated by a minister.

This is the birth extract for Charles Henderson aka Small.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/2ijjgqp.png)

I'm curious as to who signed the birth cert there. The registrar I would assume? Perhaps I'm getting too bogged down with small (no pun intended  ;D  ::) ) details. I guess a part of me is still quite vigilant to illegitimate births given what I found out about my grandfather not really being a McKenzie after all. But everything seems to point to Charles Small actually being a Charles Small. Now to investigate Leonard Small/Henderson. Now I have somewhere to go. These things aren't easy at times. All part and parcel of the fun though.

Much thanks to everyone here who has supplied advice and details. :)
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 21 March 17 17:39 GMT (UK)
The informant is Leonard Small, presumably the father of the child. 'Not present' doesn't mean that he wasn't present when the birth was registered. It means that he was not present in the house when the birth took place.
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Liviani on Tuesday 21 March 17 17:44 GMT (UK)
The informant is Leonard Small, presumably the father of the child. 'Not present' doesn't mean that he wasn't present when the birth was registered. It means that he was not present in the house when the birth took place.

AH!! I see! My misunderstanding there then. That makes things easier to understand then. The RCE must just be a name issue with Leonard Small. No worries, thanks for clearing that up. Silly me! lol
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 21 March 17 17:52 GMT (UK)
The RCE must just be a name issue with Leonard Small.
Yes, but the question then arises, why was Charles originally registered as Henderson?
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Liviani on Tuesday 21 March 17 17:53 GMT (UK)
The RCE must just be a name issue with Leonard Small.
Yes, but the question then arises, why was Charles originally registered as Henderson?

Indeed. I'm trying to research Leonard Hendersons and Leonard Smalls to see if I can make any connections. Will update. Got to get back to my uni work meantime however. I get far too distracted by family research sometimes and it tends to take up a lot of time. Will peruse this later this evening. :)
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 21 March 17 18:10 GMT (UK)
There is also the following info in the 1851 census. This is interesting as you will notice the surname Johnstone mentioned again. In the 1871 census 11 year old Charles Small was living with Ann Small aged 41 and a Janet Johnstone (I think it's Janet) aged 49. With the information that Leonard and Ann married in 1853, the reason why she is named Small in 1851 is a bit confusing. Not sure where to go from here. This family seems so messy!
I think this family is a red herring, at least it is at present. There could, I suppose, be a link further back on the Small side.

It's quite normal for a married woman to be listed in the earlier census under her maiden surname. This is the family of George Small and Isabella Johnston.

I also happen to know that their daughter Ann, aged 23 in the 1851 census, could not be the Ann Mackay who married Leonard Small, because Ann Small, daughter of George Small and Isabella Johnston, married my 3rd cousin 4 times removed, Joseph Moug, a few weeks before Leonard Small married Ann Mackay. Joseph and Ann had 10 children, and died in 1882 and 1900 respectively, all in Glamis.

I suggest that you dismiss the idea that there is any close relationship between your Smalls and either of these Johnston(e) ladies, as I think that pursuing that line of enquiry is only likely to muddy the waters of your research.
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Liviani on Tuesday 21 March 17 20:28 GMT (UK)
There is also the following info in the 1851 census. This is interesting as you will notice the surname Johnstone mentioned again. In the 1871 census 11 year old Charles Small was living with Ann Small aged 41 and a Janet Johnstone (I think it's Janet) aged 49. With the information that Leonard and Ann married in 1853, the reason why she is named Small in 1851 is a bit confusing. Not sure where to go from here. This family seems so messy!
I think this family is a red herring, at least it is at present. There could, I suppose, be a link further back on the Small side.

It's quite normal for a married woman to be listed in the earlier census under her maiden surname. This is the family of George Small and Isabella Johnston.

I also happen to know that their daughter Ann, aged 23 in the 1851 census, could not be the Ann Mackay who married Leonard Small, because Ann Small, daughter of George Small and Isabella Johnston, married my 3rd cousin 4 times removed, Joseph Moug, a few weeks before Leonard Small married Ann Mackay. Joseph and Ann had 10 children, and died in 1882 and 1900 respectively, all in Glamis.

I suggest that you dismiss the idea that there is any close relationship between your Smalls and either of these Johnston(e) ladies, as I think that pursuing that line of enquiry is only likely to muddy the waters of your research.

What a small world!

But yes, I think you're right regarding the Johnston(e) ladies. I didn't notice the "ditto" on the census and had wrongly assumed she was in the same household. Thank you for that information. Good to know that that Ann is definitely the wrong one.

Jill
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: AdrianB38 on Tuesday 21 March 17 22:33 GMT (UK)
Yes, but the question then arises, why was Charles originally registered as Henderson?
My best guess is that it was simply a mix up. The Registrar asked "Name of child?" (meaning the full name) and the father responded with just the given names of "Charles Henderson", assuming that the Registrar would add the surname.

However, the Registrar didn't add it, so he ended up as "Henderson, Charles". If you look, the RoCE actually corrects several aspects - not just the surname of the child but the year is missing from the date, and the informant's qualification for being the informant ("father") is also missing. One way or another, it's a pretty flakey job for some reason, so error is perhaps the most likely causeof the odd name.
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Liviani on Tuesday 21 March 17 22:46 GMT (UK)
Yes, but the question then arises, why was Charles originally registered as Henderson?
My best guess is that it was simply a mix up. The Registrar asked "Name of child?" (meaning the full name) and the father responded with just the given names of "Charles Henderson", assuming that the Registrar would add the surname.

However, the Registrar didn't add it, so he ended up as "Henderson, Charles". If you look, the RoCE actually corrects several aspects - not just the surname of the child but the year is missing from the date, and the informant's qualification for being the informant ("father") is also missing. One way or another, it's a pretty flakey job for some reason, so error is perhaps the most likely causeof the odd name.

This makes sense. Also with the fact that civil registration was relatively new at this point in history. It could just be a mess up with the registrar, new job perhaps.
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Liviani on Monday 27 March 17 03:09 BST (UK)
Potentially found Leonard Small on the 1841 census.

Piece: SCT1841/270 Place: Airlie -Angus Enumeration District: 4
Civil Parish: Airlie Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 4 Page: 6
Address: Blackhill

       SMALL       Leinard       M       60       Farmer        Angus           
        SMALL       Leinard       M       15               Angus           
        SMALL       Isabella       F       47               Angus   the mother?           
        SMITH       John       M       4               Angus           
 Page: 4/7       SMALL       John       M       5               Angus           
        DUNCAN       James       M       11               Angus           
        HARDY       Isabella       F       63               Angus

I have a feeling that "Leinard" aged 60 is actually the 15 year old's grandfather, or uncle ??? given the age of Isabella Hardy at 63. Isabella Hardy and Leonard Small did marry in Airlie Parish on 14th March 1824 so we know this is his wife with her maiden name stated. Seems like Isabella Small (the daughter or sister?) has been rather naughty given the amount of children in this house. Isabella Hardy/Small is just too old for this! Not sure who the John Smith would be, I wouldn't imagine she'd name 2 children John though ???

The Leonard Small that married Ann McKay (sometimes noted in documents as Mackie) in 1853 in Glenisla would be in his 20s so this matches up with what I'd expect. What puts me off looking up SP for Church marriage/banns Records is their lack of information. They often don't state parents names as far as I believe. Or even ages of those involved?

There was another Leonard Small who married a Jannet McKenzie in 1808 in Glenisla. Not sure if there is a connection and what that connection could be yet. Seems likely as I don't imagine the name Leonard Small would be altogether common in Glenisla then. ???


Edit:

This is Leonard Jr's death cert.

So his parents are stated as Leonard Small and Isabella Hardie/Hardy ??? Given their ages in the 1841 this seems unlikely ??? Hmmm the plot thickens...

(http://i67.tinypic.com/2cpeqdj.jpg)

And this is the marriage or banns for Isabella Hardy and Leonard Small.

Not sure what it's trying to say regarding proclamations? Saying it's his second or third time? Not entirely sure what that means.

(http://i68.tinypic.com/rtpcol.jpg)



Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: bleckie on Tuesday 28 March 17 07:18 BST (UK)
Hi
My take is the date is for the first proclamation 14th March.2nd 21st March. and 3rd 28th March (if my maths are correct to early in the morning) proclamations were on the following Sunday's.

Banns were read from the pulpit on 3 consecutive Sundays.

Yours Aye
BruceL
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Liviani on Tuesday 28 March 17 12:08 BST (UK)
Hi
My take is the date is for the first proclamation 14th March.2nd 21st March. and 3rd 28th March (if my maths are correct to early in the morning) proclamations were on the following Sunday's.

Banns were read from the pulpit on 3 consecutive Sundays.

Yours Aye
BruceL

Many thanks for that info Bruce

Jill
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Liviani on Saturday 01 April 17 17:27 BST (UK)
I notice that Charles Henderson Small b 20th June 1859 (the one intiallly registered as just Charles Henderson mistakenly and later corrected in the RCE) to Leonard Small, Ploughman and Ann Mackay (Mackie) was born at Mudhall in Rescobie.

Mudhall according to Scotland's Places was a couple of small cottages.

I found the following on FreeCen for West Mudhall, Rescobie, 1851;

      HENDERSON       Andrew       Head       M       M       41       Mason        Angus - Rescobie           
        HENDERSON       Margaret       Wife       M       F       48               Angus - Monifieth           
        HENDERSON       Charles       Son       U       M       17       Mason        Angus - Rescobie           
        HENDERSON       Helen       Dau       -       F       10       Scholar        Angus - Rescobie

The name Henderson appearing again at the same location a few years earlier. Coincidence? Possibly, but I can't seem to link these people. The wife here appears to have been a Margaret Webster.
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Fever on Sunday 12 November 17 05:52 GMT (UK)
Curious about your interest in Charles McKenzie WWI soldier in Canadian infantry buried in Shorncliffe.
Title: Re: Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.
Post by: Liviani on Friday 17 November 17 20:17 GMT (UK)
Curious about your interest in Charles McKenzie WWI soldier in Canadian infantry buried in Shorncliffe.

Hi Fever.

He was my great-grandfather. Actually born Charles Small, 1882, Forfar (Illegitimate). He took the McKenzie surname from his step-father Daniel (aka Donald) McKenzie. His mother was Helen Valentine Ewen, his biological father was Charles Henderson Small. Charles McKenzie b.1882 emigrated to Canada in May 1911 thereafter joining the Canadian Infantry.

My connection to him is through his illegitimate son also Charles McKenzie b.1903 Inverkeilor, Angus. Charles b.1903, his mother was a Mary Jane Evans Stewart b.1886.