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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Iain... on Monday 03 April 17 09:02 BST (UK)
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Good morning All…
I know I should have posted this as a military thread but there’s an aspect that might not be dealt with there; and that’s the ‘Queen’s Bounty.’
My Regiment the Scots Guards (3rd Regiment of Foot Guards) was one of the 3
regiments that garrisoned the Waterloo chateau-farm of Hougoumont on the 18th of June
1815.
Before the battle, one of the Guardsmen was a man called George Osbourne who apparently married a girl in the nearby village of Enghien on the 23rd of April 1815.
I do not know if she was Belgian or British because I do not have her name.
And this is my research…, to find her name.
As was traditional with many British battles, the wives often followed their husbands and on the morning of the 17th of June 1815, Mrs Osborne followed the regiment to Quatre Bras for the first battle; that afternoon, she then moved on with the regiment to Waterloo and found herself on the ridge that evening by 19h00. The 3 Light Companies were then moved down to the farm at 19h30 and spent the night loopholling the walls.
It’s not clear if she moved into the farm or if she was ordered off to the rear, but during the battle, she was wounded and when she arrived in England, she received the honour of the ‘Queen’s Bounty.’
Because I do not have her name, I'm unable to find details about her honour…, nor can I research the Belgian BDM archives just in case she was born in the region.
Any guidance would be very much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Kind Regards…, Iain.
PS RHQ Wellington Barracks can’t help…
http://www.napoleonicwarsforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=2961
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Before the battle, one of the Guardsmen was a man called George Osbourne who apparently married a girl in the nearby village of Enghien on the 23rd of April 1815.
I do not know if she was Belgian or British because I do not have her name.
And this is my research…, to find her name.
This website may have a helpful link: http://www.enghien-edingen.be/fr
If there isn't an e-mail contact for the church or civil registration there is one for the local library who might be able to advise you where to search: bibliotheque@enghien-edingen.be
Hope this helps
Philip
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As was traditional with many British battles, the wives often followed their husbands and on the morning of the 17th of June 1815, Mrs Osborne followed the regiment to Quatre Bras for the first battle
She'd have been a bit late ... the battles of Ligny and Quatre Bras were fought on 16 June 1815
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I've had a look at the google map and see there's a Catholic Church/Eglise on the main road of Enghien
Eglise Saint-Martin, Rue du Village 42, 7850 Enghien, Belgium
... and there are another two Catholic Eglises in close proximity. The website links given for the church websites are useless as you'd need to know an email contact address plus the age of the church to make sure it was in existence during the relevant period.
This webpage gives a list of churches where you can see there are several churches with addresses in Enghein (and for rasons unknown some have an address of Enghein-Silly, Unfortunately I couldn't make out which diocese the village churches belonged to nor which archives also have copies of the local church records:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01juy/
I followed one Enghein church link and was interested to see that there's a Facebook \parish Church page which has a facilities to make contact|:-
https://www.facebook.com/pg/egliseinfo.be/about/?ref=page_internal
Good luck.
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Philip and Rena…, thank you both very much for your positive replies; research and interesting URLs.
In fact, I live only a few miles from Waterloo and my daughter built a house at Plancenoit…, as such, I’m probably around the farm and the region more often than the Guides.
In the meantime, with half of my genealogy being that of my wife, I’m a club-member of http://wallonia-asbl.be/actes/index.php :
This allows access to all BDMs south of Enghein with all certificates being free thanks to a yearly subscription of about £30. (unlike the UK)
Unfortunately, Enghein is just ‘over the border’ and as such, a friend of mine has put out a request on their website for information. Still waiting !
In the meantime, Enghein is not really my problem…
It’s the ‘Queen’s Bounty’ that interests me. Even Wikipedia doesn’t mention it except for Queen Anne in 1704; a century before the battle.
Whether Mrs. Osborne was Belgian or British is unimportant, the fact that she received a ‘mysterious’ British honour; it must be indicated somewhere !
If I was able to consult the British Archives with a ‘valid’ title for such a post-Waterloo decoration, then I’d be half way there.
Unfortunately…
Kind Regards…, Iain. ;)
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If you look back in time you will find that every Queen either built a hospital for wounded servants of the Crown. or set up trusts for pensions (bounties) for other worthy causes e.g.
1) for rank and file soldiers (Chelsea Hospital/Chelsea Pensioners who wore red uniforms)which I believe was set up by Queen Mary consort of William III, and
2) for sailors (Greenwich Hospital/Greenwich pensioners who wore green uniforms) and/or
3) donated money and set up a trust for some good causes such as Queen Anne's Bounty for destitute clergy, their widows and their families.
4) Queen Victoria's Bounty was set up for mothers who gve birth to living triplets/quads
She obviously received some form of pension. Was she widowed. In those days a wife took her husband's nationality, thus she was a British citizen, but she'd have to provide proof of marriage.I'm wondering if the beaurocrats had difficulty in processing her claim and they decided she was entitled to a war pension from the Office of the Queens Bounty.
Sorry I can't be of more help. Hopefully somebody else can point yu in the right direction
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Thank you Rena…, you are a hive of information.
I don’t quite like admitting it but I didn’t relate the word bounty to pensions.
And it got even more confusing when we take into consideration that there was no Queen in 1815. (from 1760 to 1830 we had George the third and fourth)
As such, the Queen’s Bounty could only relate to the ‘last’ Queen who was Anne – House of Stuart; 1702-1714.
So it would have been the ‘Queen Ann’s Bounty’!
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C240
http://www.thesocialhistorian.com/the-queens-bounty/
Thank you again Rena. ;)
Kind ReGuards…, Iain.
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/o7dyzzs5ih8niq4/AAC6g4k932bIoFowIJ1RLTwFa
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Hi All…
I am no lover of this type of book so I don’t particularly want to read it.
Is there by any chance someone here who knows the story "A Novel without a Hero'? Could Amelia Sedley (below) have been the Queen Anne’s Bounty recipient ?
As for George Osbourne, I have found his particulars in relation to a Waterloo Medal.
2nd Battalion 3rd Regiment of Foot Guards. (Light Company at Hougoumont-Waterloo)
Unfortunately, despite having the Companys' Returns (principally used for salaries) he’s nowhere to be seen among the dead.
Kind Regards…, Iain.
Thackeray's Vanity Fair
William Makepeace Thackeray (1811–63) was born in Calcutta to Anglo-Indian parents. He came to Britain in 1817 to attend school and then spent two years at Cambridge. Thackeray studied art before turning to writing as a living. He began to make his reputation in the 1840s through his writings for Punch. Vanity Fair was his first major novel.
A novel without a hero
First published in monthly parts over 1847–8, and then as a single volume in 1848, Vanity Fair: a novel without a hero, traces the interwoven destinies of two very different heroines during the period of Waterloo and its aftermath. The orphaned Becky Sharp is resourceful and socially ambitious, whilst her school friend Amelia Sedley is trusting and unworldly. As the war clouds gather, the main characters move with their soldier husbands and the British army to Brussels. George Osborne, Amelia’s husband dies in the Battle of Waterloo, although we learn nothing more about his death. The novel is filled with references to the battle, yet the action remains off-stage. Thackeray had created a novel without a hero, leaving readers to provide their own interpretation of the action.
https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/wellington-and-waterloo/0/steps/24877
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Have you tried this avenue to see if there are any surviving records of your lady?
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/CAM
Church Commissioners administers of "Queen Anne's Bounty"
Queen Anne's Bounty. A fund established by Queen Anne in 1704. She surrendered her revenues from first fruits and tenths to the fund, which was to be used for the benefit of poorer beneficed clergy. In the 19th century the fund also received parliamentary wants and private donations. In 1948 the administration of the fund passed to the Church Commissioners.
First fruits and tenths were payments made to the Pope by beneficed clergymen. In 1534 in England these were acquired by the King under Act. Various exemptions were made in 1535, 1536, 1558, 1706 and 1707. In 1703 an Act was passed enabling Queen Anne to employ these moneys in augmenting poor benefices, and since then they have been known as Queen Anne's Bounty, and have been administered by commissioners, first appointed in 1704. Existing legislation regarding Queen Anne's Bounty are Acts of 1703, 1716, 1777, 1780, 1801, 1803,1805, 1830, 1837, 1838, 1839, 1840, 1846, 1865, 1870, 1874, 1875, 1881, 1890, 1894, 1908. The Acts known as Queen Anne's Bounty Acts are those of 1703, 1716, 1803, 1838, 1840 and 1870.
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Thank you Rena..., that seems like a good website. I'll research it today.
I did try the National Archives but just couldn't get my head around it. Your website looks easier.
Thank you again.
Kind Regards..., Iain. :)
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I've been wondering about other avenues to research, as under:-
Anyone who is a member of H.M. Forces has to obtain permission to marry and presumably all relevant details would be entered into army records. This would at the very least provide dates.
I wondered if the army chaplain of the 3rd Regiment of Foot Guards would have made notes. Here's a link which gives a general overview:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Army_Chaplains%27_Department
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This might be completely "off the wall" but, it seems to me the London Gazette printed detailed lists under many obscure headings...... I wonder if a search of their archives might yield something useful?
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Hi Rena…, great minds think alike ! Lol…
When I wrote to RHQ, I was told that all his archives are absent for digitalization, but he mentioned that by contacting the Guards Chapel, they may be able to help as their religious records are independent of the ones at Wellington Barracks.
http://www.householddivision.org.uk/guards-chapel-contacts
I wrote to Miss Edwards and got no reply.
My Associate was in London a few months back and spoke with Padre Paul Wright…, he’s the Queen’s Chaplin and lives at St James’s. I’m in contact with him for professional reasons but I don’t have the courage to change the subject.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Wright_(Sub-Dean_of_the_Chapel_Royal)
But you’ve given me a great idea !
My 2nd Battalion was reduced to Company strength some years ago and is now F Company at Wellington Barracks doing Public Duties. (they, the 2nd Bn who were at Waterloo are in red tunics and bearskins in the video below)
They were on the news yesterday as the Queen presented them with new Colours and I’m just about certain I saw their Chaplain.
I’ll contact him !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHmq55De7A0 (lol…, I used to be in the Pipe Band !)
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/o7dyzzs5ih8niq4/AAC6g4k932bIoFowIJ1RLTwFa
Something that’s also worrying is the fact that I can’t find George Osbourne’s name on the Scots Guards Company Returns. (‘3rd Regiment of Foot Guards’)
This is a 4-page document and was used principally for salaries (also indicating deaths) and all the men I’m using in my screenplay are present…, except Sgt Fraser and Osbourne.
Ralph Fraser originated from Headquarters Company that morning and descended from the ridge to the Hougoumont farm to help out. He was the one who downed Colonel Cubières and helped close the farm gates. (images) He later became a Beadsman at Westminster.
So Osbourne could have also originated from HQ Coy with Fraser. (providing another line of inquiry)
Mowsehowse…, an excellent idea ! I hadn’t thought about that and as I’m a paid-up member, I’ll certainly give it a try. If I find anything I’ll keep you updated.
Many thanks to both of you.
Kind Regards…, Iain.
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This might be completely "off the wall" but, it seems to me the London Gazette printed detailed lists under many obscure headings...... I wonder if a search of their archives might yield something useful?
I often wonder if I'm not wasting my money with the British Newspaper Archives... The London Gazette is not even mentioned.
..., Iain.
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This might be completely "off the wall" but, it seems to me the London Gazette printed detailed lists under many obscure headings...... I wonder if a search of their archives might yield something useful?
I often wonder if I'm not wasting my money with the British Newspaper Archives... The London Gazette is not even mentioned.
..., Iain.
I don't pay subcriptions for either of those faciities.
My local library provides free access to 19th century publications, which I often refer to on my home computer.
Searching through the Gazette and viewing any page is free and I see there are thousands of results for 3rd Regiment of Foot Guards, for example.
Another of some fruitful freebie searches is the Open Library Book site, although I must say I preferred the old layout:-
https://archive.org/details/texts
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You said:- " nor can I research the Belgian BDM archives just in case she was born in the region."
I'm confused by that statement, as it would be a simple matter of hiring a film in the Morman church Belgian family history facilities and you yourself taking a photocopy of the page the soldier's name appeared on. Thus only you will know the subject you're researching.
Under Napoleon's rule, church records are far better than Scottish and English records. Thus from a marriage entry there should be details of bride/groom, their birthdates and places of birth, plus the full names of their mothers & fathers and abodes, plus witnesses and their occupations.
Unfortunately I don't know if there would be a charge for viewing the film. Normally in GB, local films are free to view but there's a small charge for photocopying an image (no charge if you use your own pen to write down the details lol) plus a charge for obtaining films they have to send for.
Here's familysearchorg map which shows where their FHS centres are - just enter "Belgium"
https://familysearch.org/locations/
... and here's a link to the films regarding what's available under the keyword "Enghien". It looks like there's a parish register and a civil register for the time frame.
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/results?count=20&query=%2Bkeywords%3AEnghien
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Lol…, thank goodness we’re not neighbours Rena !
Extremely interesting and thank you for all the advice.
As I mentioned earlier, I had some of the best genealogists in Belgium do a research of the Enghein region without any success…, this was why they suggested that I should connect with a military source.
In the meantime, I left a message with the Aldershot Chaplaincy Team on Facebook yesterday. (The Scots Guards are stationed there) With a message asking for information about marriages.
Lol…, I forgot to add the date 1815. They’ll probably come to the conclusion that I want to get married again.
https://www.facebook.com/Aldershot-Garrison-Chaplaincy-Team-1721537114800686/
I’ll certainly contact the Mormon Church office…, I believe they have one in Namur; not far from here. Very good idea…, even if it costs money.
Rena…, concerning your local library. This is important ! Do you have to live in the region to have access ?
Or is the URL available on a global basis ?
Kind Regards…, Iain.
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Rena…, concerning your local library. This is important ! Do you have to live in the region to have access ?
Or is the URL available on a global basis ?
Kind Regards…, Iain.
I've surfed, without success, to see if libraries in other EU member countries can offer free online access to the British Library.
The free online British Library access is only available to residents in the UK whose main County Library pays for an annual subscription. As we're going through a period of austerity you may find that your family in the UK may or may not have free online access depending on the circumstances in that area.
I know you have a belief that he married in Belgium but that could have been a confirmation blessing in one of the two different denomination churches. If your Guardsman was posted to Ireland at any time, then there is a possibility that he married a local girl. Searching for "Osbourne" brought up an encouraging list of results, unfortunately my computer is running very slowly this morning so couldn't follow up.
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/
http://www.rootsireland.ie/
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Thank you Rena…
Don’t quite understand the ‘Irish Connection’ with the regiment being Scottish. (despite having a lot of English…, and probably Irish Protestants)
Note: The Scots Guards were formed in 1642 specifically to calm the problems between the Scottish settlers and the south. Lol…, and the same Regiment plus the whole of the British Army are still hard at it !
As for the British Library, I’ll try and sign up as a paying member.
With the Aldershot Chaplaincy now in my sights, I’ll wait a few days to see how they react. If they don’t have the archive, they should be able to point me in the right direction.
Have a nice weekend. Kind Regards…, Iain.
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Thank you Rena…
Don’t quite understand the ‘Irish Connection’ with the regiment being Scottish. (despite having a lot of English…, and probably Irish Protestants)
Note: The Scots Guards were formed in 1642 specifically to calm the problems between the Scottish settlers and the south. Lol…, and the same Regiment plus the whole of the British Army are still hard at it !
As for the British Library, I’ll try and sign up as a paying member.
With the Aldershot Chaplaincy now in my sights, I’ll wait a few days to see how they react. If they don’t have the archive, they should be able to point me in the right direction.
Have a nice weekend. Kind Regards…, Iain.
Of course, I don't know the history of the Scots Guards,e.g. whether they were amalgamated at various times, etc. The thought came to me because during research of my M'kenzie family all born in the highlands of Scotland I noted many male M'kenzies in the Scottish Lanarkshire 1841 and 1861 census had been born in Ireland (none related to me). Of course, their male ancestors could have settled in Ireland many decades before but on the other hand they could also have been sons of the 1790s conscripted soldiers and born when their fathers were posted to Ireland.