RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Jane190 on Saturday 08 April 17 16:49 BST (UK)
-
Hello again,
Today I saw on another genealogy side a Post about my ancestors John Cooper and Mary Underwood. And that his family said that they have gypsies in the family. Can someone tell me if they were Gypsies? ???
John Cooper b.1837 in Heston, Sutton or Blacton Middlesex . Occupation :Gardener, son of William Cooper and Ann Shortland. His wife was Mary Underwood b. 1840 in Chertsey, Surrey, daughter of Richard Underwood b.1817 in Chertsey, Surrey and Elizabeth Jones b.1817 in Chertsey. Richard was a Agr. Labourer.
William Cooper was the son of James Cooper (James Grace Coopper?) b. 1750-1755 in Harmondsworth, Middlesex and Mary Appleton b. 21.sept 1760 in Harmondsworth, Middlesex.
The Information of William Cooper are from a familysearch familytree.
James Cooper and Mary Appleton had the following Children :
Joseph b.1783 Harmondsworth
Mary b. 1785 Harmondsworth
Ann b.1787 Harmondsworth
Martha b. 1788 Harmondsworth
Dinah b. 1790 Harmondsworth
William b. 1791 Harmondsworth
James b.1793 Harmondsworth
Sharlot b.1794 Harmondsworth
Salem b.1794 Harmondsworth
Maria b.1795 Harmondsworth
Charlotte b.1797 Harmondsworth
David b.1800 Harmondsworth
The familytree also says that James Cooper b.1750-55 Harmondsworth was the son of John Cooper jr. Who was born 1735 in Bincombe, Dorset to James and Catherine Cooper.
I don't know the occupation of James Cooper or his father.
Hope someone can help me ,
Regards
Jane
-
Have you found any evidence that they were gypsies
1851 Ann & the children are all Field labourer's - whether they were working on a farm or the brick fields is not indicated. Do later census have them with occupations that 'fit' travellers or living in accomodation that would infer they were not in static housing. :-\
-
When & where did William Cooper & Ann Shortland marry
-
Hello Rosie,
I don't know when they married :(
But the parents of Ann Shortland , Thomas Shortland and Mary Dukes married in Hounslow, Middlesex 17 October 1780
And the parents of William Cooper , James Cooper and Mary Appleton married in Harmondsworth, Middlesex 23 april 1782 .
James Cooper and Mary Appleton had 12 Children which are listed above
Two of them called Sharlot and Salem both born in Harmondsworth in year 1794 (twins ). Sharlot and Salem are Romany names or not? Salem is maybe an abbreviation for Solomon?
Regards
Jane
-
How do you know that John Coopers parents are William Cooper & Ann Shortland :-\
I see that Johns marriage shows his father as William and that John is living with an Ann on census
-
Currently sitting in Heston, where I was brought up for the 1st 18 years of my life, waiting for Sunday lunch, I know roughly where Sutton was, but Blacton? Where does that come from?
-
Currently sitting in Heston, where I was brought up for the 1st 18 years of my life, waiting for Sunday lunch
I hope you are sitting out in the sunshine with a nice cool drink ;D
-
I wonder if it is meant to be Heston - 3rd row down, Heston is a bit lower
-
Think you may be right if you can justify that a is meant to be overwitten/crossed out
And yes, garden and cool drink all present and correct
-
It does look as though the enumerator started to write something else then possibly tried writing over it.
-
I think a year ago a woman helped me with my family via ancestry because I don't have a membership. There was a birth for a John Cooper born 1837 in Blacton ( Heston ) and than a same birth for a John Cooper born 1837 in Heston , both with parents William Cooper and Ann Shortland thats the Information she sent me .How can I be sure if my ancestor were of Romany heritage? I can only See the England Censuses from familysearch but not from other genealogy pages. I think a lot of censuses have written down if someone was a Gypsy or a traveller.
Regards
Jane
-
I am trying to track your family back to see if I can find any sign of them being Romany.
There are children being baptised in Heston with parents William & Ann on one in 1814 William is said to be a Shepherd.
Online family trees are often wrong, those on the familysearch website are mainly done for the purpose of their members baptising the dead and need treating with caution. I will see what else I can find
Rosie
-
William was buried 29 Jan 1837 age 45 so born c 1793
John was born 23 September 1836 and baptised 23 October 1836 - parents William & Ann Cooper no mothers maiden name given. Ancestry is showing a baptism in 1839 for a brother George but the transcript is wrong it should be 1830 - I was hoping it was 1839 and that the birth had been registered ::)
I agree that it is probable that William was the son of James & Mary - A possible Mary was living with son James in Heston in 1841 - In 1851 James gives his place of birth as Harmondsworth. Still no indication they were Romany - James was a Farm labourer
-
I can see baptisms for most of those children of James & Mary but no sign of one for a Salem or similar could it be a transcript error for James (1793) who I can't see either :-\
The familytree also says that James Cooper b.1750-55 Harmondsworth was the son of John Cooper jr. Who was born 1735 in Bincombe, Dorset to James and Catherine Cooper.
I don't know the occupation of James Cooper or his father.
I wonder how they made that connection ::)
I can see a possible baptism for Mary Appleton in Harmondsworth and Appleton families in that area prior to her birth.
-
Thanks for the Information :)
What about Mary Appleton? She was the wife of James Cooper and I don't know much about her , her parents or siblings. I don''t think that they were Gypsies because they had not common Romany occupations or common Romany forenames. But is Ezekiel a Romany name ? And was Beer seller a Romany occupation? I'm sorry for the questions but the family is very interesting ;)
Jane
-
Ezekiel is a biblical name.
Beer seller was a common occupation, many people at those times made their own beer and sold it from their homes. Beer was purer to drink than water.
-
Okay Thanks,
My Ancestor Henry Taylor b.1763 Lyneham,Wiltshire was a Beer seller who married Martha Picket 24 Feb 1784 Lyneham. Later He came over to Warfield, Berkshire.
Regards
Jane
-
Hello Jane,
This is an interesting entry in the Old Bailey records about our ancestor William Cooper (who, by the way, likely married Ann Shortland in 1813 at St Mary's Church Hanwell)
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18301209-13-victim232&div=t18301209-13#highlight
Third Middlesex Jury, before Mr. Justice Alderson.
13. THOMAS GREEN was indicted for stealing, on the 5th of December , at Heston, 1 sheep, price 20s. , the property of William Cooper .
SECOND COUNT, for killing the said sheep, with intent to steal the carcase.
WILLIAM COOPER. I live in the parish of Heston, in the County of Middlesex , near Hounslow - I am a labourer, and keep a few sheep . On the 4th of December I had one hundred and two sheep, at ten o'clock in the morning, when I counted them; they were on Mr. Essex's land, at Acton - I count them every morning, and next morning on counting them, I missed one; I looked about, and about ten yards from the hurdles I found marks of a sheep having laid down and struggled - there was no blood; I traced the sheep right up the field, and there it had been laid down and its entrails taken out, at the upper end of the field, in the ditch; I found its entrails and one kidney there - it appeared to me as if it had been opened alive; there was some blood, and I traced footmarks right up the field with a tipped toe, and four nails inside the heel of the shoe - inside the tip there stood four square nails; it was a turnip field, and ploughed ground; I traced the man's feet on the ground - Michael Baker afterwards measured the same foot-marks; I showed them to him - I went to the bakehouse, and from there to the Magistrate; I went with a warrant to the prisoner's house, about three o'clock - I found in a cupboard, or kind of coal-hole, under the stairs, a sheep's pluck hanging up; I then found a bag in the same cupboard, and in that was a sheep's skin cut into a great many pieces - I found my own mark on one of the pieces; that was a C. - the prisoner then went up stairs; I told the constable to follow him, and called out, "Here is my sheep skin, I will swear to it, take him into custody" - the constable called out."Here is the meat," and in a pan up stairs we found all the sheep, except the shoulder and head; it was pieces of mutton - we found no kidney, except what I found in the field; the prisoner was at home when we first went there - he did not object to our searching; the constable was with me - he was taken into custody; we took the skin, and meat before the Magistrate- Baker has had possession of the skin; the prisoner is a labourer, and works for Mr. Irons, at Heston - I knew him before very well; he has a wife and two children.
MICHAEL BAKER . I am a constable and shoemaker. I was present when the prisoner's house was searched - the prosecutor's account of what was found is exactly correct; I went with him to look at the feot-marks in the field, and took the exact dimensions of their length - there were marks of four nails exactly in the centre of the heel; I told Mr. Trimmer, the Magistrate, of this, and the prisoner's shoes were lifted up; the dimensions exactly corresponded, and there were four nails exactly in the same place, on the heel - I have the pieces of the skin; when found it was nearly warm, as if recently killed; I also found in the house this cord and apron, both all over blood and wet, as if they had tied the sheep - they were wet when I found them; his shoes appeared to be nearly a new pair.
WILLIAM COOPER . Here is my mark on the skin - it is the skin of the sheep I lost: the mark was C. in a jagged wheel, but the jagged wheel was apparently cut off - the 4th of December was on a Saturday.
JOHN HOW . I am a labourer - the prisoner works at the same place as me. On Saturday night, the 4th of December, we were paid together, and came away from master's together; he turned into a gate for a necessary purpose, as he said - I did not see him any more that evening; I parted from him about a quarter of a mile from the field where the prosecutor's sheep were.
Prisoner's Defence. I left that young man for a necessary purpose - I ran after him to overtake him; there was a man before me with a parcel - he threw it down, and ran away; I took it up, put it into a cupboard close to where my coals are kept, and there it remained - I took the meat out, put it into a small dish, and sent it away from my children, that they should not meddle with it; the constable came next morning to search my house - I said he was welcome to do it; I opened the cupboard door where the skin was - the meat was standing in a dish up stairs.
[Dec. 11.] GUILTY - DEATH . Aged 24.
I hope that the poor young man was not actually put to death!
-
I hope that the poor young man was not actually put to death!
The link on the trial that you have posted suggests that he was transported
https://www.digitalpanopticon.org/life?id=obpt18301209-13-defend230
-
Interesting. I had been told that death sentences weren't always carried through. Hard times, all the same.
Thanks, Rosie.
-
Wow interesting :)
-
It is always good to have web pages like the Old Bailey that are free to view and contain so much :)