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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Norfolk => England => Norfolk Lookup Requests => Topic started by: drmjgould on Friday 14 April 17 23:40 BST (UK)

Title: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: drmjgould on Friday 14 April 17 23:40 BST (UK)
I cannot find any details of this member of my direct pedigree of her death [or remarriage]. She was born in Attleborough, Norfolk in 1840. She married George Hawes in Tibenham on 17 Sep 1861 & had her third known child [Edgar Francis] on 17 Mar 1865 in Tibenham. George Hawes married Sarah Anne Sivell/Civil/Sivel [probably Margaret's sister] on 23 Feb 1870 in South Hackney, Middlesex. George & Sarah Anne then lived in Shoreditch & later on in Hackney. Between 17 Mar 1865 & 23 Feb 1870 Margaret most probably died [or unlikely remarried] & I cannot find any records relating either of these possibilities - if anyone is able to HELP ME I would be very, very grateful!
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: CaroleW on Friday 14 April 17 23:56 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat

George is shown as a widower on the 1870 marriage cert but I can't see an obvious death for Margaret between 1865-1870
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 15 April 17 00:09 BST (UK)
There was a 4th child born

William Swell (?? Sivell) Hawes  mmn     Sivell     
June qtr 1868 Shoreditch 1C  Page 202


EDIT
If a 4th child was born Shoreditch and was Margaret's son it suggests Margaret died in Middlesex - not Norfolk

Always the possibility he was the son of George & Sarah before they married.

Have you confirmed that Edgar was Margaret's son?
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: drmjgould on Saturday 15 April 17 00:42 BST (UK)
Hi Carole, Thanks for your thoughts in your posts. Swell is commonly [I think] transcribed when it is actually Sivell. The other children of George & Margaret are named George & Georgiana [twins] born 12 June 1862. It may well be that you are right, although none of their 1st three children have a family middle name, but this son may be the one who breaks that prior pattern. George & Sarah Anne had a child called George Herbert Hawes born 7 Dec 1875 in Shoreditch. Do you know of any info that might prove this is the 4th child of George & Margaret, or should I order his birth cert from GRO? Many thanks for this help, kind regards, Michael
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 15 April 17 00:53 BST (UK)
Strange - in 1871 there are only 2 children with George & Sarah - both b Norfolk.  No deaths for Georgiana or William so where were they?

George 8
Edgar 6

No death for George jnr between 1871 - 1875 so I wonder why they would name another son George?
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: drmjgould on Saturday 15 April 17 00:54 BST (UK)
Hi again, Edgar's England, Select Births & Christenings, 1538-1975 entry FHL film no. 2299613 showed parents were George & Margaret Hawes and Christening was on 25 Apr 1865 at Wymondham, Norfolk. Thanks again, Michael
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: drmjgould on Saturday 15 April 17 01:03 BST (UK)
I cannot find where Georgiana was in 1871, but she was staying with her uncle Leonard Sivell [& wife] in Bethnal Green in 1881 Census [piece 412, folio 103, page 19]
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 15 April 17 01:07 BST (UK)
There were no twins - Georgiana Hawes Sept qtr 1862 - mmn was Sivell - page number 217

George Hawes and Walter Hawes - same qtr page number 220 were twins - mmn Sage

So what is strange is that Georgiana becomes George - male in 1871.  GRO index confirms christian name was Georgiana - not George
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: drmjgould on Saturday 15 April 17 01:09 BST (UK)
I cannot find any info on George [b 1862] in 1881 & 1891 English Censuses or of his death between 1871 & 1875, but I agree with your thoughts about why George Herbert was named thus
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 15 April 17 01:18 BST (UK)
I suspect it is enumerator error and George in 1871 is actually Georgiana. 

Still doesn't tell us about William though so I think to solve that little mystery you are going to have to buy the 1868 birth cert.  I can't find any baptism for him which would have helped

If he was Margaret's son then it leaves a very short timescale for her death - June 1868 - Feb 1870
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: drmjgould on Saturday 15 April 17 01:20 BST (UK)
On the E&W Civil Reg Birth Index 1837-1915 for 1862 [Jul-Sep] George is there & Georgiana is 2 lines below both under Depwade, Norfolk [vol 4b, page 17]
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: drmjgould on Saturday 15 April 17 01:24 BST (UK)
Carole, As you say William Swell Hawes birth cert may well be the answer, & would definitely narrow down the period for Margaret's death, again many thanks, Michael
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 15 April 17 01:25 BST (UK)
Quote
On the E&W Civil Reg Birth Index 1837-1915 for 1862 [Jul-Sep] George is there & Georgiana is 2 lines below both under Depwade, Norfolk [vol 4b, page 17]


I know - but different page numbers.  See my reply above - I checked on the GRO site and George & Walter were twins - mmn Sage - page 220

Georgiana was page 217 - mmn Sivell
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: drmjgould on Saturday 15 April 17 01:28 BST (UK)
It may be that William Swell Hawes & Margaret died in childbirth of in some epidemic [cholera was a big problem in the 1800's in London]
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 15 April 17 01:39 BST (UK)
No death pre-1871 for William - he is not the Kensington death as there is a corresponding Kensington birth for him

There is a Marylebone infant death but I doubt that's him
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: drmjgould on Saturday 15 April 17 01:49 BST (UK)
Have found William Swell Hawes death in Jan-Mar 1869 in West Ham, Essex [E&W deaths 1837-2007 on Find My Past, vol 4a, page 10]
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: drmjgould on Saturday 15 April 17 02:02 BST (UK)
George aged 8 yrs in the 1871 English Census is interestingly down as a boy, so the enumerators confusion might have been compounded!
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: drmjgould on Saturday 15 April 17 02:04 BST (UK)
Interestingly William's middle name "Swell" is transcribed in both birth & death as Swell
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 15 April 17 19:04 BST (UK)
Quote
Have found William Swell Hawes death in Jan-Mar 1869 in West Ham, Essex [E&W deaths 1837-2007 on Find My Past, vol 4a, page 10]

Well done - I only looked in the Shoreditch RD - big mistake!!

Although it's on freebmd as William - Ancestry have it as Thomas Swell Hawes so have notified a transcription error

I wonder why Essex??
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: drmjgould on Thursday 07 December 17 20:32 GMT (UK)
Hi Carole again!

Sorry about the sudden & long hiatus in this thread. I am now focused back on this. I have both the birth & death certs of William 'Swell' Hawes. Margaret is his mum & George [coal dealer] his dad. He was born at the same address as George's 2nd wife [Sarah Anne] was living with George & his kids in the 1851 England Census

Why he died in Stratford [of meningitis] rather than Shoreditch I have get to get to the bottom of. There is no indication of whether Margaret is still alive at the time of William Sivell Hawes' death.

So Margaret's death was between 16/3/1868 [W S Hawes dob] & 23.2.1870 [wedding of George & Sarah Anne], & most probably occurred in East London [rather than Norfolk/Suffolk]

Exhausting & varied searches online by me [Ancestry.co.uk+FindMyPast+FS] have been pretty hopeless!!

Would be interested in any of your ideas to find out where & when she died!!

Kind regards

Michael
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: drmjgould on Thursday 07 December 17 20:34 GMT (UK)
Carole - English Census should be 1871, not 1851 - Michael
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 07 December 17 20:59 GMT (UK)
With such a short timescale it should be easy - but she's hiding.  I can't find any death for her
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: drmjgould on Thursday 07 December 17 23:06 GMT (UK)
Hi Carole, you have responded very quickly. I have tried a large number of variations of her 1st name [even Peggy & Mgt!] & her surname [Haws & Hoares etc] with no success, in Middlesex, London, Essex, Norfolk, Suffolk & UK wide. The only thing I think that I can do is go to the non 1837-1916 BMD records, eg: parish & other local London sources for the Shoreditch/Hackney area [& possibly West Ham] not available online. What do you think? Any of your ideas would be most welcome. Kind regards, Michael
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 07 December 17 23:43 GMT (UK)
Does it give an actual place of death for William on the death cert
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: drmjgould on Friday 08 December 17 00:08 GMT (UK)
Hi Carole - W S Hawes' death occurred on 27 Mar 1869 at Leyton Road, Stratford, Essex. Hannah Watts was the informant who also lived in Leyton Road [?same house as WSH], George Hawes [coal dealer] was his father [source: his death cert] - Michael
Title: Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
Post by: drmjgould on Tuesday 26 December 17 01:47 GMT (UK)
Hi Carole

I have just discovered that Margaret's sister Anna Sivell [1847-1922] married Francis Watts [1844-1893] & she lived in West Ham from 1861 to her death & married in 1867 [4Q] along with the fact that quite a few of his siblings lived in West Ham about 1870 [+/- 10y]. However I have yet to find a Hannah Watts who was related to them, though I continue in my quest. I believe that the Watts connection is significant

Do tell me what you think & of your research

Kind regards

Michael