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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: DrT33th on Sunday 16 April 17 05:25 BST (UK)
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I have been tracing my Scottish Ancestry ...but have hit a brick wall, and am hopeful of help.
My GG father, William Watt [1843-1886], was a seamen and then a ship's master in Montrose. He lived/died at 22 North Street.
[He was married to Jane Robertson[1848-1886]]
William Watt's father (according to both his wedding [to Jane in 1873 in Montrose] and death certs (I can't find a birth cert for William Watt) is John Watt, a master baker in Montrose, married to a Sarah Lillie (or Lily).
That is where it falls apart.
The 1846 and 1847 almanacs for Montrose both list John Watt as a baker (at Murray Street).
However... He does not appear in either the 1841 or 1851 census
...and I cannot find any birth, marriage or death certs for either John Watt or Sarah Lillie (Lily). (Indeed I cannot find a "Lillie" or "Lily" listed anywhere in the region. ??? )
..and I cannot find the birth certificate for William Watt anywhere. ???
I am open to good ideas. ::)
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
I wonder if this family is worth looking into despite mothers name -1851 Living at 14, Murray Street, Montrose, Forfarshire :-\
Isabella Watt Head Widow 32 Baker Mistress Employing 3 Men
Sarah Jane Watt 14 House Servant
Ellen Watt 11
William Watt 8
Mary Watt 7
John Watt 4 Montrose, Forfarshire
Edward Watt 3 Montrose, Forfarshire
Henry Mitchell Servant 19 Baker Journeyman England
James Ryrie Servant 19 Baker Journeyman Fettercairn, Kincardineshire
James Davison Servant 16 Baker Apprentice Laurencekirk, Kincardineshire
Looks like a large bakery
Kay
Added - Scotlands People free index has a death of a John Watt age 39 on 5/10/1849 in Montrose??
In 1861 census both Isabella, Helen and Mary are listed as born in England??
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Hi Kay...
Now that is fascinating....
Capt. William Watt had 4 children... Mary, William, John (My Grandfather) & Edward (ties up!) ..and a sister called Mary!
There is a maid in the house called Sarah Watt.
I winder if he John Watt married twice... once in England to Sarah Lillie and then latterly to Isabella?
Wow...
Thank you so much.
I will let you now how I get on...
[I live in Melbourne Australia BTW...hence the "late night/early morning posts]
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I also wondered about Isabella being a second wife
I did find a Master's Certificates
William Watt Age: 28
Birth Place: Montrose, Forfar
Issue Date: 23 Feb 1871
Issue Port: Montrose
Certificate Number: 3308
Address listed as 18 Murray St Montrose
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Looks as if that is the family of John Watt and Isabella Robinson - John b 4 July 1846 and Edward b 2 April 1849 (age a year out).
I see from the 1851 census (transcription at www.freecen.org.uk - you need to check with the original at Scotland's People) that all the older children were born in Felton, Northumberland - only the last two in Montrose - but have failed so far to find any of them in Northumberland in the 1841 census. Nor can I find a marriage to see if Isabella was a second wife and the older children had a different mother. Nor do any of the births seem to have been registered in Northumberland, and there are no matching baptisms in the IGI at FamilySearch.
Isabella and Edward were still living together in 1861 and 1871, and Isabella died in 1875, but you probably know that already. Edward is probably the one who married Jemima Irvine in Montrose in 1872, but he didn't die in Scotland and I have not found him in a later census in England, so he may have emigrated.
I also looked at the Montrose MI book, but there doesn't appear to be a stone with John Watt on it.
If I were you I would look for marriages or deaths of Sarah Jane, Ellen (don't forget to look for her as Hel(l)en, El(l)e(a)nor and Nellie too!) and Mary to see who is named as their mother.
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I wonder if this is the family in 1841 Living at Longframlington, Felton, Rothbury, Northumberland
John Walts 30
Sarah Walt 30
Ann Walt 6
Sarah Walt 4
Ellenor Walt 2
No occupation listed and all but Ellenor born Scotland
Added - The GRO index has the death of a Sarah Watt age 32
GRO Ref 1843 June Quarter in ROTHBURY UNION Vol 25 Page 279
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That does look right, Kay. Good find.
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That does look right, Kay. Good find.
All due to you finding Felton :)
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There is this death that may be of interest
SARAH Watt age 32
GRO 1843 June Qtr ROTHBURY UNION Vol 25 Page 279
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Hi Kay and Forfarian, Thank you both so much for this. I have made more progress today than in the last two weeks. 8)
The hint for the John Watt, (Baker) death record in Montrose in October 1849 seems correct. The big questions is why did John move to / from Felton. (I assume that with the Watt surname he was originally from Angus, which is why he went home).
Kay, >>
>>I did find a Master's Certificates
>>William Watt Age: 28
>>Birth Place: Montrose, Forfar
>>Issue Date: 23 Feb 1871
>>Issue Port: Montrose
>>Certificate Number: 3308
>>Address listed as 18 Murray St Montrose
Where did you get this? :D The dates are spot-on for My GG Grandfather (I had been looking, and the "W"s have not yet been transcribed at Lloyds. )
Is there any information on what ships he might have been sailing on..and to where?
Forfarian.. I think we have a side-slip ... or something else that I have missed. at...
>>Isabella and Edward were still living together in 1861 and 1871, and Isabella died in 1875, but you probably know that already. NOPE! Edward is probably the one who married Jemima Irvine in Montrose in 1872, but he didn't die in Scotland and I have not found him in a later census in England, so he may have emigrated.
Did Isabella re-marry? Edward Who? I am now confused again. :-)
What I need to find now is John Watt's birth Certificate... and a little more about his history..
..and find out about Sarah Lillie, who seems to be my GG Grandmother
- Fraser (aka DrT33th)
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Kay, >>
>>I did find a Master's Certificates
>>William Watt Age: 28
>>Birth Place: Montrose, Forfar
>>Issue Date: 23 Feb 1871
>>Issue Port: Montrose
>>Certificate Number: 3308
>>Address listed as 18 Murray St Montrose
Where did you get this? :D The dates are spot-on for My GG Grandfather (I had been looking, and the "W"s have not yet been transcribed at Lloyds. )
The Masters Cert is from Ancestry - There are several other that might be him
Kay
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Scotland's People 1851 Census shows:
Isabella Watt as head of the bakery in Montrose
Sarah Jane Watt (14), Ellen Watt (11)
William Watt ( 8 ) and Mary Watt (7) were all born in Felton, Northumbria.
John Watt (4) and Edward Watt (3) were born in Montrose.
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1871 Living at
126 14, Murray Street, Montrose
Isabella Watt Widow 51 Baker & Grocer Employs 3 Men & 1 Boy England
Sarah J Watt 33 Shopkeeper England
Helen Watt 31 England
Edward R Watt 23 Bank Clerk Montrose
Kay
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I wonder if this is the family in 1841 Living at Longframlington, Felton, Rothbury, Northumberland
John Walts 30
Sarah Walt 30
Ann Walt 6
Sarah Walt 4
Ellenor Walt 2
No occupation listed and all but Ellenor born Scotland
Added - The GRO index has the death of a Sarah Watt age 32
GRO Ref 1843 June Quarter in ROTHBURY UNION Vol 25 Page 279
The Glasgow Herald of March 16th 1846, has death of an Ann, at Abercorn Place, Portobello, youngest daughter of the late Mr John Watt, baker, Montrose.
The Ann of the census would look to be an eldest daughter :-\.
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Forfarian.. I think we have a side-slip ... or something else that I have missed. at...
Isabella and Edward were still living together in 1861 and 1871, and Isabella died in 1875, but you probably know that already. NOPE! Edward is probably the one who married Jemima Irvine in Montrose in 1872, but he didn't die in Scotland and I have not found him in a later census in England, so he may have emigrated.
Did Isabella re-marry? Edward Who? I am now confused again. :-)
No. As you can see from the extract from the 1871 census that Kay posted, Isabella and her son Edward were still living in the same household in 1871. (Also daughters Sarah Jane and Ellen/Eleanor/Helen, but I just checked for Edward because Edward is a relatively uncommon name in Scotland.)
What I need to find now is John Watt's birth Certificate
There is no birth certificate for John Watt. Statutory civil registration did not start until 1855 in Scotland.
I note with interest that John Watt, son of William Watt and Ann Wilson, was born on 22 July 1810 in Montrose. Also that John Watt and Sarah Lillie's eldest daughter seems to have been named Ann, and their eldest son was William. Could this be your John? I'm not sure how you would prove it, however.
William Watt and Ann Wilson also had James, born 1808, and Alexander, born 1815. If any of William, James and Alexander were bakers, this might be a piece of evidence for John's parentage.
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I wonder if this is the family in 1841 Living at Longframlington, Felton, Rothbury, Northumberland
John Walts 30
Sarah Walt 30
Ann Walt 6
Sarah Walt 4
Ellenor Walt 2
No occupation listed and all but Ellenor born Scotland
Added - The GRO index has the death of a Sarah Watt age 32
GRO Ref 1843 June Quarter in ROTHBURY UNION Vol 25 Page 279
The Glasgow Herald of March 16th 1846, has death of an Ann, at Abercorn Place, Portobello, youngest daughter of the late Mr John Watt, baker, Montrose.
The Ann of the census would look to be an eldest daughter :-\.
Hmmm. I think I'd want to look and see if there is a burial record that gives an age for Ann at death. Could the paper have put 'youngest' by mistake for 'eldest'? And why the Glasgow Herald? Is there any other evidence for a Glasgow connection?
Doh! Of course this isn't the child in the 1841 census. Her father only died in 1849, so in 1846 he was not 'the late John Watt'! This could be clue to a previous generation.
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Looks like one of the family continued as a baker. The Dundee Courier of 2nd Dec 1940 has mention of the bequests of a Montrose woman:
MONTROSE WOMAN'S BEQUESTS Mary Isabella Watt, baker, 37 Murray Street, Montrose, who left £3810 2s sd, has bequeathed: £50 to Montrose Royal Infirmary; and £25 to the Methodist Church in Montrose
Mary and her brother/cousin (?), William, took over the bakery in 1923, from their late aunt, a Miss Mary Watt, of 17 King Street, Montrose.
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Hi guys, and hello Scotmum...
Forfarian, I have also found the "John Watt 1810 birth record". Again... the dates look good... and the family naming tradition of William and John keeps going.. (My grandfather was also john, and he had three sons ..William, John and David (my father). So that chain is looking promising.
- Fraser
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Sorry.. I stuffed up using the board system... still a novice..
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1841 census in Montrose. James Watt, 30, baker and confectioner with Christina Watt, 25; Helen Watt, 15; John Moore, 4; Jane Ann Watt, 5 months; two apprentices and a servant. This looks like James Watt and Christina Gordon, but I don't see a marriage date. Their daughterJane Ann was born 28 December 1840.
They also had
James Wilson, 23 October 1842 (note the middle name)
Christina, 18 April 1844
Robertina Helen, 15 May 1846
Also Alexander Watt, 26, merchant service, with Mary Ann, 22, and William, 3 months. Looks like Alexander Watt and Mary Ann Hutcheon, married 9 February 1840 in Montrose, with son William Hutcheon Watt, born 8 March 1841 in Montrose.
They also had
James Birnie, 12 February 1843
Alexander, 11 February 1845
Robert, 18 October 1847
George, 10 November 1849
John, 26 September 1851
Could these be the other two sons of William Watt and Ann Wilson?
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Forfar Sheriff Court has a will or testament:
Surname: Watt
Forename: John
Date: 26/11/1849
Description: Baker in Montrose
Type:
Court: Forfar Sheriff Court
Reference Number: SC47/40/19
which can be viewed, by purchase of credits, at Scotlandspeople.
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Sarah Jane Watt (14), Ellen Watt (11)
William Watt ( 8 ) and Mary Watt (7) were all born in Felton, Northumbria.
Just a minor point, but Northumbria did not become the name of a formal administrative entity until the 1970s. In the time you are interested in, it was Northumberland
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Sarah Jane Watt (14), Ellen Watt (11)
William Watt ( 8 ) and Mary Watt (7) were all born in Felton, Northumbria.
Just a minor point, but Northumbria did not become the name of a formal administrative entity until the 1970s. In the time you are interested in, it was Northumberland
:P Thank you... I will need to brush up on my Geography of England now I suspect ;D
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Forfar Sheriff Court has a will or testament:
Surname: Watt
Forename: John
Date: 26/11/1849
Description: Baker in Montrose
Type:
Court: Forfar Sheriff Court
Reference Number: SC47/40/19
Yes..Died in Montrose October 1849..Sounds like the right John Watt ;D
are those wills accessible?
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...Could these be the other two sons of William Watt and Ann Wilson?
Wow. I don't know...but it easily could be ...and could explain how John could come straight back to Montrose as a baker ...into the business of his brother ... and might explain why his son William went to sea...followed his uncle Alex in to the service....
I have learned so much tonight (in Melbourne, so night time here now)
So, I wonder if William Watt, the father (my GGG Grandfather) was also a baker? Time to look for a death record.. :D
- Fraser
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Yes..Died in Montrose October 1849..Sounds like the right John Watt ;D
are those wills accessible?
Yes, you can pay to view on Scotlandspeople.
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So, I wonder if William Watt, the father (my GGG Grandfather) was also a baker? Time to look for a death record.. :D
- Fraser
Yes..I found him..
He died in 1839, William Watt, listed as a Baker, In Murray Street Montrose :D 8) 8)
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Aha!
John Watts and Sarah Lilly marriage. 24 May 1835, Bishopwearmouth, County Durham. Transcribed for FindMyPast by Northumberland and Durham Family History Society.
There's also a transcription of the baptism on 10 March 1805 of Sarah, daughter of John and Jane Lillie, in Coldstream, Northumberland. However it says she was born on 23 December 1805. This is clearly wrong so you absolutely must get a look at the original if you think she might be your Sarah. Note that her age does not tally with the age of Sarah Watt who died in Rothbury in 1843. Also there is at least one other marriage of a Sarah Lilly, in 1834 in South Shields, so there is obviously at least one baptism of a Sarah Lilly missing from the available transcriptions, and there may well be more.
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Aha!
John Watts and Sarah Lilly marriage. 24 May 1835, Bishopwearmouth, County Durham. Transcribed for FindMyPast by Northumberland and Durham Family History Society.
That is spectacularly good work Forfarian, and thank you again for all the help.
...er...since you seem very good at this stuff... the Isabella...the second wife, going by ages on census data, if she lived in Longframlington, can only be either Isabella Bell or Isabella Cowans...
Can you try to find a Noerthumberland marriage certificate? It would have to be dated between 1843 when Sarah died and 1846 when the first record of John appears as a baker in Montrose .
- Fraser
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HOLD THAT REQUEST
Her maiden name was apparently Robinson I just found her death certificate in Montrose, widow of John Watt, Baker, died Feb 1875.
It has her listed as Isabella Robinson, daughter of Edward Robinson (Farmer) and Ann Robinson, (looks like nee "Topping".
- Fraesr
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I already said at the start that I thought she was Isabella Robinson. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=769589.msg6220946#msg6220946 above.
I wonder if she is the one married to John Wall in Weardale in the September quarter of 1845 - could Wall be another misspelling of Watt?
Edward Robinson married Ann Toppin in Felton, Northumberland, on 24 January 1810. There are three children listed in the IGI to Edward and Ann Robinson in Longframlington
Ann, 6 August 1815
Isabella, 11 January 1818
Tamar, 5 July 1820
but there could be others not in the index. There are 90 Robinsons in the Longframlington baptism register.
In the 1841 Census, in Longframlington, the next household to John and Sarah's is John Robinson, 65?; Frances Robinson, 50 and Frances Robinson, 15. Next again is George Robinson, 35 with Isabella Robinson, 35; Edward, 14; William, 9; Mary Ann, 5; Isabella, 3; Jane, 1.
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I already said at the start that I thought she was Isabella Robinson. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=769589.msg6220946#msg6220946 above.
I wonder if she is the one married to John Wall in Weardale in the September quarter of 1845 - could Wall be another misspelling of Watt?
Miss-spellings and miss-interpretations seem common in these things. My grandmother on the other side of this tree is a "Moyes". her birth certificate has Mary Thomson Moyes" but her marriage certificate just has Mary... and "Moyies" :D Joy... ::)
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I already said at the start that I thought she was Isabella Robinson. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=769589.msg6220946#msg6220946 above.
Aha...I just read that again...and her son Edward was the one who signed the date certificate ... which is weird, because Edward doesn't appear in the 1851 Scottish Census. ??
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which is weird, because Edward doesn't appear in the 1851 Scottish Census. ??
Duh Yes he does, at 3 years old...so it all matches just perfectly... :P :P
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Hi all... Your assistance tonight has been spectacular. Thank you... but it is getting late here Down Under, and bedtime.
So, thank you all again...I am off for a kip!! :) :)
- Fraser
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I did sort of wonder when you were going to need some sleep - sweet dreams!
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In the 1841 census there's an Isabella Robinson, aged 23, a female servant in the household of Andrew Benton, Agent, at Brinkburn Priory, parish of Alwinton, which is about 3 miles from Longframlington. This could be your Isabella - she matches exactly in age.
Some photographs taken around Longframlington
http://www.geograph.org.uk/search.php?i=71177795
and Brinkburn Priory
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NZ1198
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A Mary Watt, mother's surname Robinson, born Rothbury area in 1844. Red herring?
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She is certainly the right age to be the 7-year-old Mary in the 1851 census.
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https://familysearch.org
Name Mary Isabella Watt
Gender Female
Birth Date 13 May 1874
Birthplace MONTROSE,ANGUS,SCOTLAND
Father's Name William Watt
Mother's Name Jane Robertson
Name Edward Robertson Watt
Gender Male
Birth Date 13 Sep 1881
Birthplace Montrose, Forfar, Scotland
Father's Name William Watt
Mother's Name Jane Robertson Watt
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=754281.0
Topic: William Watt - scotsman working in Moscow 1917 (Read 435 times)
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Curiosity got the better of me!
Alexander Watt, shipmaster, married 1st to Mary Ann Hutcheon and 2nd to Mary Kinnear, died at 17 Balmain Street, Montrose, on 18 July 1889, aged 73. Parents William Watt and Ann Wilson. QED.
Alexander Watt and Mary Kinnear were married at St Cyrus on 29 April 1858. So Mary Ann Hutcheon must have died quite young, probably before the start of civil registration in 1855.
1911 Census has Mary Watt, 66, single, bread and biscuit baker, born England, and Mary I Watt, niece, 36, single, baker's shop assistant, born Montrose.
Mary Isabella Watt, 66, died in Montrose in 1940. This matches Mary Isabella Watt, born 13 May 1874 to William Watt and Jane Robertson.
Also note with interest Mary Kinnear Watt, born 7 December 1874 in Monifieth to George Watt and Annie McCulloch Roger.
Mary Watt, single, baker, daughter of John Watt, baker, and Isabella Robson (sic), died on 28 October 1923 at Albion Cottage, Luthermuir, Marykirk, Kincardineshire, aged 75.
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http://www.nls.uk/family-history/directories/post-office/index.cfm?place=Angus_and_Mearns
1846 Angus and Mearns directory and almanac Montrose, Forfar, Brechin, Arbroath, Kirriemuir
1847 Angus and Mearns directory and almanac Montrose, Forfar, Brechin, Arbroath, Kirriemuir
Montrose
Page 22
Watt, James, printer and publisher, 20, High-street.
Watt, Robert, baker, Ferry-street
Watt, Alexander, shipmaster. Hill-street
Watt, James, merchant, 59, Murray-street
Watt, Alexander, shipmaster, Bridge-street
Watt, John, baker, 100, Murray-street
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1841 census in Montrose. James Watt, 30, baker and confectioner with Christina Watt, 25; Helen Watt, 15; John Moore, 4; Jane Ann Watt, 5 months; two apprentices and a servant. This looks like James Watt and Christina Gordon, but I don't see a marriage date. Their daughter Jane Ann was born 28 December 1840.
They also had
James Wilson, 23 October 1842 (note the middle name)
Christina, 18 April 1844
Robertina Helen, 15 May 1846
Hi Forfarian,
A far as I can see James Watt went south and married Christiana Gordon (Father Charles Gordon, a Tailor) on 23 Nov 1839 at St George the Martyr Church in London then brought her back to Montrose for a while before heading back to London... They appear again in the London 1861 census as a family, living in Clerkenwell St James, Pentonville District.
- Fraser
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Going back a bit, does anyone have information about my 4* Gt Grandfather, Robert WATT, shipmaster of Montrose, who died in May 1817, aged 44?